Archived

This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.

JulianB

Graphic representation of dinghy performance

Recommended Posts

For the umptenth time I was asked 2 weeks ago what boats should a 12 year old Opie kid sail to best place him in a 49er when he gets into his late teens, early 20's.

 

This mum, was very smart , far greater grasp of numbers than I, spreadsheets, etc, but I still struggled to get the flow across, so I generated the following graphical representation, and she has come back and said, and I quote "Thanks for following up. Interesting graphical depiction of the relative properties of these classes of boats, brings the stats to life."

 

So, what I am seeking from you guys/gals is a peer review!

 

I could give you all my figures, but I think that would predispose a bias, which I have little doubt I will be accused of. Instead, I plan to explain my rational, and asked others to have a go at there own interpretation and maybe we can blend them and end up with something meaning full.

 

So what I have done is go to the RYA site and dig out the relevant PY [Porthsmouth Yardstick] numbers.

http://www.rya.org.uk/SiteCollectionDocuments/technical/Web%20Documents/PY%20Documentation/2015%20PN%20List%20v6.pdf

I have picked the boats mostly on simplicity, firstly if I did not know them, then I could not represent them.

 

I then went into the ISAF site and looked up the technical data

http://www.sailing.org/classesandequipment/index.php

 

So I have exclusively used that information unless the RYA/ ISAF data was simply wrong in which case I went into that classes rules and gleaned it from there.

 

An example, 470 appears not to have a PY number, so I worked out approx where it should be.

 

I included the IC because its to interesting not to.

 

And we all know a moth sails heeled to windward and greatly increases its RM by doing so, where as a Laser, when sailed "flat" is actually heeled about 6° to leeward.

I have not imputed these shifts in CoB, I have assume the boats are all bolt upright as per their numbers.

 

Finally I have used the ISAF HP definition about sailing faster than the wind, downwind, most of the time, to draw the red line.

 

Not sure why a 470 dose not do it more often (Tack down wind), but we also know a 29er dose, most of the time, (and yes, I know why a 29er dose).

 

What is irrefutable is that a 5o5 and to a lesser extent a I14, spend a lot of money and effort setting there boats up so they can quite deliberately switch to HP modes both up-wind and down wind, so, from my POV I consider the 5o5, the tipping point boat, it has has a foot in both camps, one could say the best of both worlds.

 

So the lobes etc on the graph.

 

PY is pretty easy, bottom of the solid is the PY number.

 

Displacement to the left of the graph is based on Power to Weight ratio.

 

Then the Circle compared to the Oval, has to do with RM/SailArea.

 

So a Moth is round because it has the same SailArea upwind as down, so my thinking is that a sailors ability to create a difference is equally possibly up-wind as it is downwind, where as a 49er the performance opportunities are greater down-wind because of the spinnaker.

 

The ovals are vertical because boats go a lot faster down-wind than they do up-wind.

 

That's enough from me, be really keen on some other ideas on this.

Love to hear your comments, and be rest assured I wont be offended!

 

Jb

 

 

post-26198-0-72035700-1439427958_thumb.jpg

 

 

 

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Hi Julian

 

As an OptiDad whose daughter (12) has posters of the 49erFX on her wall, this is just gold!! Putting an Australian spin on it, a FLying 11 would fit somewhere near the RS Feva I guess ie oval'ish, and a shade of blue?? She's just taken the tiller on her new F-11 this winter, and is loving it, while eyeing off the older kids in their 29'ers ... so I have my fingers crossed!

 

Would appreciate your thoughts on F-11 as a pathway given a similar the statistical analysis above ...

 

Cheers

Chris

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Last published UK PY number for a 470 was 973.

 

A guy in the UK on the Yachts and Yachting forum did a regression analysis on Portsmouth numbers against published boat data figures which produced a surprising correlation, I could put him in contact if you like.

 

On gybing downwind in 470s, I wonder if the banging the corners/playing percentages thing comes into it. If most of the fleet go square and you sail hot angles you either lose big or gain big. But if you are front of fleet anyway you can't gain much if it goes right (100 yards ahead of 2nd is the same as 1 yard ahead of 2nd) but you only need to lose big in 1 or 2 races to stuff a series. What did you use to do in Cherubs with Nicola: square or hot angles? When sprit kites came out in Cherubs I was unconvinced, but after a season in which vmg/straight line speed was much the same, but I lost at least one place at every gybe mark I ditched the pole kite.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Like!

 

The only thing I would change is to quantify the power/weight axis, and possibly run it left-to-right increasing rather than the other way around, just because that's the way most graphs I see are done. Yeah I'm more of a conformist than anarchist, maybe.

 

Another possibility is to use the color as an indicator of class size. The more boats at a classes' Nationals (or midwinters or whatever) the darker the color. This would obviously vary country to country, we don't have many 29ers over here. But it could be a great planning tool and also open some windows for kids who don't realize how many different options there are.

 

Thanks JB dunno how much time you spent on this but it was very worth while.

 

FB- Doug

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Julian,

I'm trying to wrap my head around everything you are showing here. Are the ovals just generic ovals to represent the idea of a greater power to weight ratio off the wind, or does their size indicate the difference in upwind vs. downwind? Since PY modification factors are available for sailing a spinnaker boat without Spinnaker, it seems that later would be possible. Ditto what Doug said about showing power to weight ratio increasing toward the right; it's just what we are used to seeing.

-Steve

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Ok, just landed at Heathrow.

Did not include a F11 because it dose not have a PY. But I thought I had to include a 470 because its a Olympic though I did not included a RSX because I was sure that I would get it to far out and its not a pathway to the original question which is a 49er/FX.

 

Can flip the graph, thats easy.

 

To get the ovals or the dia of the circles I put the sail area over the RM.

 

So the width of the oval or the dia of the circle is the working sail area of RM

The height of the oval is the working sail area plus the spinnaker so total sail area of the RM.

 

I orentated the ovals vertically because as you go upwards you get more performance and most boats go faster under spinnaker than not.

 

Jb

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Nice work, Julian. If I may make a few suggestions on how to change the visuals a little to make it easier to read....

 

1. Don't get too hung up on scale on the 2 axis. It is more important to be able to easily compare the boats. At the moment, the whole thing is pretty long and thin. I would play with scale to get the boats more spread out horizontally.

 

2. Find a way of getting the X/Y axis in the middle, with boats distributed either side of both lines. This will result in boats in 4 quadrants and that can end up with some interesting insights. I wouldn't be surprised if you can give the quadrants some name that suggests boat characteristics.

 

To make it clear, this really is a minor change of the existing data, rather than a rewrite of that data.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

I sailed both the 505 and the international (not the club) 420. With the wind up, there was no comparison. The 420 was considerably more difficult to sail because everything happens faster. So the 505 may be too good of a design--to easy to sail in big wind--to train you for a 49er?

This shows why it is so hard to compare boats based on your own experience of those boats. I sailed both 505's and 420's, as did many in the UK. In particular, I sailed them in the big handicap/pursuit races over the winter. If the forecast was windy, I did everything i could to get a 420 for the event because they were so much easier to sail fast in high winds and usually won. In medium winds the 505 was the perfect weapon (lighter winds I would try to sail my National 12).

 

So for me, the 420 is far easier to sail in a breeze than a 505 and I believe the results in the UK say so. I am not saying that fastyacht is wrong with his own view, just that there are different views, meaning that something like Julian is trying to perfect is a really useful tool because it doesn't/shouldn't allow personal feeling to get in the way.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The numbers are all very interesting

 

The best transition boat will be the one with all the coolest kids with whom your kid cannot resist playing

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Interesting idea this plot.

 

But,

 

Notice that basically "requirements" for moving towards a 49er fall out of this as follows:

 

1. Trapeze a must.

2. Pretty fast boat that planes a lot of the time.

So get the kid out of the 4twinkie and into the 505. This is easy to do. That's been my working theme since 1990. But most adults get pretty upset about it. Heck kids are told not to sail a laser!

On the other hand I've never sailed a 49er nor a 29er but should do that. The 505 is faster than the latter on avg but some have told me that the 29er is more "skiff like" to sail. Whatever that really means. I think it means a pain in the ass.

 

Now along the "pain in the ass difficult" is good for moving towards the 49er, I'll note that back in the 90s I sailed both the 505 and the international (not the club) 420. With the wind up, there was no comparison. The 420 was considerably more difficult to sail because everything happens faster. So the 505 may be too good of a design--to easy to sail in big wind--to train you for a 49er?

 

See the performance numbers really don't tell all the story. What are the skills needing development? How do you go about developing them? At a reasonable cost? I think the 29er was supposed to do that?

 

the 505 is actually considerably faster - having shared a course with them - in pretty much all conditions. However, their tub hull shape (having never sailed one) does not make it conducive to as a skiff trainer. There's more to it than speed. No, i haven't sailed a 5oh, but i have sailed 470's (in other words, i have experienced more than the 420 as far as non skiff hull shape). The skiff-like tendencies you allude - or downplay, can be considerable. Look at the Gorge/I14 thread to see some back and forth on how the 29er is a good trainer for narrow bows and asym kites.

 

This is not to say that the 420, or 470, is a bad boat or a bad stepping stone. I think those that step right into the 29er from optis are probably going too fast since, in the 29er, you dont get a lot of chance to sit back and say "what should we do now", so the tactical and boat-on-boat stuff can take a second seat to how to make it go fast. The (club)420 is a decent platform to learn big fleet tactics, managing your crew/skipper - communication and how to shut them up, how to trap, and how to handle a bigger boat than an opti. The 29er is great for teaching how to go fast, fast boat tactics, the little intricacies that go along with an asym kite and a narrow boat, and remembering that sailing is supposed to be fun (sorry, but the 420 got boring after a while. Im 25 now and i still love the 29er).

 

At any rate, from what i know of a wide bow design, even in breeze, it is not the same as a narrow bow/skiff design. That goes for 420's/470's, and 29er/49er/I14 (in order of time on the water). As far as knowing the stupid little shit to watch for, the 29er provided leaps and bounds. As far as how to stay on the trap, and look at a fleet, the base foundation was laid in the 420. Skiff-like means everything from: tipping over at the dock if not tended to, to wrapping your old kite sheet arm around your back as you cross the center of he boat to keep the head of the kite tucked in as you begin to rip the kite around on the new kite sheet and hit the wire as quick and as hard as you can.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Some answers to your inquiries.

 

Stanno, re the F11, its very much a Australian boat, that has pluses and minuses. And it has no PY number, (this whole document is heavily English skewed.) I have never sailed a F11, I certainly have worked on them and admired them from afar, great kids boat, in the same vain as what is being proposed here they would be better than a RS Feva but its biggest draw back is no International competition. Kids need to be "blooded" in a international event before they are 17, 20 at the outside. That event can be in your case, Australia, but you need a international class with 100+ boats.

 

JimC, thanks for the 973PY for a 470, I will move it, it will virtually overlap a Fireball, and, OK, once you move it back down the graph, then why they don't tack down wind becomes obvious. Nicky and I in Cherubs, remember spending a lot of time on the wire downwind and these had much smaller spinnakers than they do today, so I can only assume we where running apparents.

 

Doug, I will flip the graph for you, but you colour concept I'm not sure is relevant.

 

Steve, my intuitive take is as you go up the graph, you go faster, down you go slower, in its present form, as you go left, you increasing power, as you go right your decreasing power, just trying to KISS and give the umptenth+1 mum something I can explain over the time it takes to drink a cup of coffee without getting into semantics.

 

FY, every 29er skipper gunwale swings, yet they have no issue what so ever going double trapeze-ing on a 49er every chance they get.

My take, and I know I'm getting subjective here which I really want to avoid is that trapeze-ing is functional, it can be learnt by just about anyone and with practice you get good at it. Apparent Wind Sailing [AWS] is subliminal, it has to become intuitive. Bit like learning a 2nd language, got to do it before your 17-18 or it becomes a whole different learning problem.

 

Re fast boats, there is very much a place for going out sailing in a slow boat in a big fleet, Laser for instance and learning the discipline of grinding out those places and being very tactical. Sailing a single hander is great because you can't blame anyone else when you muck up.

 

But nothing beats learning to work as a team. And learning in a fast boat just exaggerates that process because get it wrong you get wet.

 

Rasspuit, when you find it let me know!

 

Simon, I don't want to go rocking axis's because that implies bias, but you certainly have me thinking that WRT P/W ratio! We can work off a mean PW rather than a absolute and that will put roughly 1/2 the boats on one side and the other half on the other. We then can compress the vertical scale to get it to nicely fill a A4 page.

 

And by doing that your not being subjective, you will also get your 2 quadrants.

 

And you then can evoke the ISAF paradigm, WRT HP and draw a horizontal line there.

 

Worth a try, I will have to get my son to send me the file, see if I can do this in the next 24 hrs and we can re-conven!

 

Thankyou,

 

Jb

 

Julian

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Hi Julian,

 

Nice work. I guess you are trying to show that you need to progress up the power to weight ratios to progress towards a 49er.

 

Further to what Simon suggested, here is a graph I posted on Y&Y a few years back, inspired by some of the work in your dad's books. The vertical axis is the Downwind Sail Area:Total weight ratio and the x axis is Sail Carrying Power: Downwind Sail Area ratio (doubled, for unimportant reasons). That allows you to split boats in to four quadrants - the further to the top and the right the better.

In the chapter on Critical Ratios in the second book, it is suggested that a Sail Area:Weight ratio of higher than 0.53 is needed as one of the conditions to make apparent wind sailing viable, and that essentially sets a limit on the minimum size of the kite. My addition was to argue that, to be a practical boat for UK club courses which usually involve reaching rather than windward/leeward courses, there is an upper limit to kite size based on what can be flown on a reach.

Boats in the bottom left can neither make a assy kite work downwind or on a reach, so are a bit crap. Boat in the top left can work downwind but not on a reach. Bottom right can reach but not go downwind faster than running square, whilst top right hit a sweet spot of reaching and running effectively. The 29er is one of the few in that quadrant, the 49er is top left. Boats like the RS200 are bottom right and rotomoulded boats bottom left.

The area under a marker i.e. the x axis * y axis * 0.5 gives the SCP:total weight ratio, which is also given importance in the Bethwaite bible and I think is the x axis in your plot above.

My plot could be improved by changing the size of the markers to indicate PY.

 

I am the man JimC refers to earlier as well. I did a regression analysis of PY vs boat fundamental properties and came up with a very simple, but surprisingly accurate, formula to predict PY. What I published on Y&Y was only for kiteless hiking boats, like the Laser etc, but can be adapted to other types of boat.

post-41741-0-10973700-1439709829_thumb.jpg

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

So I have read Mustag's and Sosoomii mails, needs some names on the boats but I get what your saying, not sure I can get that across to potential parents in the space of a cup of coffee though.

 

Also I point out this is unashamedly targeted at 49er, these kids and these parents what there kids to go down this path.

Im sure there are a equal number of kids and parents that want to go down a Corinthian path also.

But that's not what I am being asked, and its not my problem, maybe the sports but not mine.

 

Anyway, I have had another go based on Simon's suggestions, but I have not flipped the graph, its simply to hard on a laptop.

 

All I have done is re-configure the horizontal scale so compressed the PY's. and then finding a mean because a bit arbitrary based on areas of the ovals/circles so it was very close to running through the 5o5, so I just used it, once again as the mean boat.

 

Let me know your thoughts.

 

Jb

 


So I have read Mustag's and Sosoomii mails, needs some names on the boats but I get what your saying, not sure I can get that across to potential parents in the space of a cup of coffee though.

 

Also I point out this is unashamedly targeted at 49er, these kids and these parents what there kids to go down this path.

Im sure there are a equal number of kids and parents that want to go down a Corinthian path also.

But that's not what I am being asked, and its not my problem, maybe the sports but not mine.

 

Anyway, I have had another go based on Simon's suggestions, but I have not flipped the graph, its simply to hard on a laptop.

 

All I have done is re-configure the horizontal scale so compressed the PY's. and then finding a mean because a bit arbitrary based on areas of the ovals/circles so it was very close to running through the 5o5, so I just used it, once again as the mean boat.

 

Let me know your thoughts.

 

Jb

 

post-26198-0-59138700-1439737876_thumb.jpg

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Just show them the video from the first two days of world's this year!not very quantitative though...

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Hi, been asked for a clearer copy, this is the best I can get off the lappy without Photo Manager which Windows 8 dose not have.

 

Mustang, 29er worlds footage is sensational. Yes I am biased but the tracking and the imagery was all great, credit to the class.

Phwelhie, the drive there was worth it, but the venue is quite extraordinary, quite possibly the best in the UK.

Few more hotel beds would not hurt, but all new, impressive club house, good wind, no traffic.

post-26198-0-10048000-1439752601_thumb.jpg

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Julian - thanks for the image, have already passed it to my nephew (and his team) who are sailing the Club 420 NA championships right now. Perhaps I missed it, but: is there significance to the color of the dot?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

OK... I thought for sure somebody other than me I have read that title and decided that there should be a graphic description of dinghy performance offered in this thread.

To that end:

 

LOOKAT THAT SUMBITCH FLYING OVER THOSE FUCKING WAVES. I AIN'T SEEN NOTHIN GO THAT FAST IN SO LITTLE WIND SINCE ANABELLE'S DAD CAUGHT VINCE DIDDLING HER IN THE HAYLOFT.

WHEN THET RAISED THE CHUTE IT CAME OUT OF THE LAUNCH TUBE QUICKER THAN LUNCH FROM A SUPER MODEL'S MOUTH AND THAT SPIN POLE IS AS AS STIFF AS A PORN STAR ON VIAGRA.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Julian,

Great effort.

 

Queries?

1. For the IC did you consider the new 50kg narrow boats or the slower old 80kg fat boats?

2. I think the Contender should have a circle (no extra) and the power appears lower than it should be.

 

My bias is development classes and its nice to see the moth and the ACat right up on top. We can see what 50 years of development in our sport and the class has done if we compare the position of the Moth with the Europe.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I like graphical representations like these -- a great way to consolidate the date.

 

Can I suggest it needs a contour which represents optimum (or min realistic) crew weight - as that's the thing that will stop a pair of 14yo from sailing an I14 (ignoring $$).

 

I think following that weight contour to 'the next fastest boat' is the minimal-distance path.

 

 

But as Gouv points out - the real path is that which is available locally which keeps the kids interested. That outweighs almost everything else.

 

In Sydney, it'd be something like: opti/mirror - F11 - Cherub / 13ft skiff, for example.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

ICs. The current UK PY number is a rather unhappy compromise. In my not totally uninformed opinion the 83 kg boats should be around 905, and the fine bow 50 kg boats around 880.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Wow. Wtf?

It was a Graphic representation .... Sheesh .... I guess it isn't humor if it isn't funny ... But I gave it my best shot

 

Anyway... All the numbers sure are fun. I don't see how they actually relate to whether it is fun for a teenager but they seem to describe something real

 

Some of the fastest dinghies I have sailed just slip past the eater and offer a less exciting ride than slower dinghies that fight their way through waves and regularly soak the sailors.

Fear of crash and burn adds fun too. Perhaps those factors must be added in to consider fun

Maybe all that matters is the boat is a great fit for teams involving or made up of girls. I am certain that factor added to the success of the Laser Two

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Some of you are missing the point of this, that was, a mum, for the umptenth time asked me what steps where needed to get her little Johnny from Opie to 49er in such a way that he had a chance.

 

There are possibly 1000's of track with 1000's of outcomes, yes the 13ft skiff is a great boat, very Australian, but its directly up against the Cherub and its not gaining traction and if you put a 17 year old that has had one or 2 international events in say a 29er in a close to 200 boat fleet and his/her counterpart who has come out of the Manly 16ftskiff program in 13ft skiffs, in a 49er in Hyere's then blind Freddy knows what that answer will be.

 

And which IC PY number's relevantcy, its 25 places, seriously important to a IC sailor but to a parent wanting to know which way to go, I think not! For a US kid, I think that a stint in IC's would do no end of good in learning AWS, just like a stint for a Manly (Sydney) sailor a 13ft skiff is good cheap path, but to cut it in the world of int 49er sailing your only putting of the inevitable and setting yourself up for tears.

 

I'm getting subjective now, and that's defeating the point. I will stop.

 

The comment on price are also very interesting, and I do remember way back 2001 maybe there was a ISAF report on the cost of sails. It was done suitably arms length, taking internet based prices and displaying them in terms of sq-m. Its possibly worth digging that out and up-dating it.

 

Hulls are a bit more difficult as most serious campaigns have 3 boats for logistic reasons. Even your keen 29er sailor leaves a boat in the UK for 2 years these days just to beat logistics and charter fees and then has another back home and cycles them, again approximately every 2 years.

 

That's possibly a useful contribution. Let me come back to you with that. But it will be a few weeks, that will require some information.

 

Julian

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

If you want to compete at that level you have to spend that huge kind of money it takes to compete at that level including all the extra boats and regatta trips and at all that crap you just described in the previous post.

 

Sorry, I was responding to someone Who I thought just wanted to have his kid get into Good old sailboat racing at a sustainable lifetime community friendly level

 

I keep getting sidetracked by my fantasy that someday sailing will be more like soccer or baseball or football where everybody gets to play at the local level and those who actually show great promise are the ones who get to advance to the next level. Sailing always has been and probably always will be a sport where the primary factor above all factors in the success of a sailor is about whether your parents have enough money to fund your campaign

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Why are the Flying Scot, Viper, and VX One left out? Vanguard 15?

 

Because they're really not stepping stones toward any Olympic class. That was the original point of this graph. It's using the Portsmouth Yardstick system and they don't sail (cough cough) Flying Scots in the UK.

 

FB- Doug

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Originally Posted by Phil S :

My bias is development classes and its nice to see the moth and the ACat right up on top. We can see what 50 years of development in our sport and the class has done if we compare the position of the Moth with the Europe.

Phil : I totally agree with what you wrote, except the Europe was never competitive in the Moth class (at least in the U.S.). It might have done well enough if it had appeared 10 years earlier. But by the time it was designed in 1960, the trend toward lighter weight, narrower waterlines & wider beam on deck was already well underway.

 

I don't mean to quibble (and I'm sorry about the thread drift), but I just don't want anyone to think that that's the kind of boat we sailed in the 60's.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Why are the Flying Scot, Viper, and VX One left out? Vanguard 15?

The thing is a lot of us missed the original question.

Putting that questionin something you Americans can understand, this is like a parent who's kid is still playing T-ball asking, "What kind of bat should I be buying while my kids playing in Little League so that he can most easily transition to playing for the Yankees?"

 

To make things more entertaining he's generated a bunch of statistics about how wood bats and aluminum Bats and wiffleball bats and used broom handles might hit baseballs

 

Your response and those from many of the rest of us suggested he sign his kid up for whatever local league seems to be the most active and go from there.

As his kid is going to be playing for the Yankees our answers were of no particular use

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

So this is now getting precocial so I am going to take it that its been suitably peer reviewed, so going to pull stumps!

 

I will fix up the Contender, I may flip it, and when I get home I will post a Hi Res version for you all.

 

Like the T-ball analogy, that's pretty neat.

 

Jb

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

So this is now getting precocial so I am going to take it that its been suitably peer reviewed, so going to pull stumps!

 

I will fix up the Contender, I may flip it, and when I get home I will post a Hi Res version for you all.

 

Like the T-ball analogy, that's pretty neat.

 

Jb

 

 

In a way, the shorthand you asked the original question had a number of assumptions that not every one understood:

 

1. Parents have a seemingly inexhaustable amount of time and money available

2. Sailing is not merely for life long learning but rather is a varsity blood sport for this tyke

3. The parents are quite certain that said tyke has the requisite basic level of sailing skills and racing acumen, drive, interest, passion, to be able to go all the way provided there are no screw-ups.

 

T-ball or soccer or etc has this same set of questions. In the US you will not go all the way in youth sports without either rich parents or a "sugar daddy" organisation picking up the tab. You also need the year round coaching and development--multi-sport athletes are being weeded out faster than crabgrass at Monsanto.

 

 

The mother's question is a very good one--because it is far from clear what needs to happen! It is difficult enough to figure out soccer and that is easy by comparison (in terms of "what is the route to the Olympics"). Sailboat racing is nebulous--even to sailors.

 

Australia vs US will have differences but I'm sure there are analogous dead-ends such as "Mallory Cup" etc here---don't even bother with that crap if you are trying to get good at high performance racing. (Well that's my opinion anyway--and it may be wrong!).

 

A guiding set of parameters for what classes will gev a good chance of success is crucial to the parent who meets assumptions 1 through 3.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Julian:

Nice effort.

Not to pick it apart, but I want to suggest that Mom's question is misguided. I would suggest that the "single path to success" is a flawed notion and that the setting time tables and benchmarks is counterproductive, at least as far as sailing goes.

This is for the simple reason that sailors as athletes can have exceptionally long competitive careers, and that success can come in unexpected places and times. We do not need to identify prodigies and rapidly promote their development before they size out (like gymnasts.) Further, despite ISAF's best efforts, sailing requires a broader set of skills than just boat handling and tactics. These can be profitably learned in many classes. Sometimes a sailor just needs to mature, and this happens at different rates. There are dozens of greats that didn't achieve until their 30s or 40s. This is not because they outlasted their cohort, but because they were racing better.

So I think you would be best saying to a parent whose kid is graduating from the Optimist, " It doesn't matter what the boat is, what matters is energy, enthusiasm and engagement. If he or she has the desire and spirit, they will gravitate to the classes that advance their development and engage them at the correct level." In short facilitate them, do not direct them. I think the search for a "right answer" is wrong.

SHC

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Julian:

Nice effort.

Not to pick it apart, but I want to suggest that Mom's question is misguided. I would suggest that the "single path to success" is a flawed notion and that the setting time tables and benchmarks is counterproductive, at least as far as sailing goes.

This is for the simple reason that sailors as athletes can have exceptionally long competitive careers, and that success can come in unexpected places and times. We do not need to identify prodigies and rapidly promote their development before they size out (like gymnasts.) Further, despite ISAF's best efforts, sailing requires a broader set of skills than just boat handling and tactics. These can be profitably learned in many classes. Sometimes a sailor just needs to mature, and this happens at different rates. There are dozens of greats that didn't achieve until their 30s or 40s. This is not because they outlasted their cohort, but because they were racing better.

So I think you would be best saying to a parent whose kid is graduating from the Optimist, " It doesn't matter what the boat is, what matters is energy, enthusiasm and engagement. If he or she has the desire and spirit, they will gravitate to the classes that advance their development and engage them at the correct level." In short facilitate them, do not direct them. I think the search for a "right answer" is wrong.

SHC

Very well said. In our yacht club they actually started to arrange "adventure camps", which don't include a lot of sailing, if any at all, just to keep the youngsters engaged. Obviously the thinking is that they might pick up sailing at a later stage or at least keep them involved to arrange parties.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

Julian:

Nice effort.

Not to pick it apart, but I want to suggest that Mom's question is misguided. I would suggest that the "single path to success" is a flawed notion and that the setting time tables and benchmarks is counterproductive, at least as far as sailing goes.

This is for the simple reason that sailors as athletes can have exceptionally long competitive careers, and that success can come in unexpected places and times. We do not need to identify prodigies and rapidly promote their development before they size out (like gymnasts.) Further, despite ISAF's best efforts, sailing requires a broader set of skills than just boat handling and tactics. These can be profitably learned in many classes. Sometimes a sailor just needs to mature, and this happens at different rates. There are dozens of greats that didn't achieve until their 30s or 40s. This is not because they outlasted their cohort, but because they were racing better.

So I think you would be best saying to a parent whose kid is graduating from the Optimist, " It doesn't matter what the boat is, what matters is energy, enthusiasm and engagement. If he or she has the desire and spirit, they will gravitate to the classes that advance their development and engage them at the correct level." In short facilitate them, do not direct them. I think the search for a "right answer" is wrong.

SHC

Very well said. In our yacht club they actually started to arrange "adventure camps", which don't include a lot of sailing, if any at all, just to keep the youngsters engaged. Obviously the thinking is that they might pick up sailing at a later stage or at least keep them involved to arrange parties.

 

Steve, Jonas:

Good points. However, my assumption was that the parent in question is reacting to their child's desire to sail a 49er. There are plenty of skiff types zipping around for said child to observe (it is Oz after all), and the 49er has the promise of the olympics. Olympic athletes do start at an early age. Then again it could be a bad case of "little league parent".

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

^yeah, it could well be that said kid actually is dreaming of sailing in the Olympics one day. When it is the other way around, the parents usually "know" what's best for the children

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The original purpose of Julian's analysis has to be or only a limited number of aspirational parents.

 

Firstly only one crew from the best 25 nations make it to the Olympics, and of these only about half end up making a career as pro sailors. (These are the exceptional ones, with special intrinsic abilities and who's families have made incredible sacrifices to get them there.) There are very limited oportunities at the end of the long road. Even at big Olympic class regattas there will be maybe 4 times that number of crew with some sort of Govt support trying to gain these 25 places. (based on 2 or more crews from 40 to 50 countries.) So somone without such support has some tough competition to conquer.

 

Secondly, for those outside Europe the cost to compete in large international fleets goes up many fold, second boats as Julian stated, or freight, plus fares and accommodation for long periods.

 

Thirdly to do this time at the regatta circuit, the youth's education has to be compromised, first school and then tertiary. Even if they do manage to complete a fragmented vocational course they start their career later than their same age peers and hence limit their earning capacity.

 

So even ignoring the child's demonstrated sailing ability, before answering the first questions back to such a parent might be:

1. Can your family afford the time and cost required?

2. Do you or your child want them to have another qualification and career?

3. Does the child like sailing to the detriment of almost everthing else in life?

4. Can you and the child accept that the chance of making the Olympics is statistically very low.

 

If the answers to all these questions is YES then the parent should go the next step and consult Julian's chart.

 

If not then the child and family may be much better off with lower aspirations. They should probably look more closely to the biggest class in their area where similar aged kids are enjoying the sailing, competition and social life. If the child ends up a local champion very quickly then they might like to reconsider the 4 questions again. If not they will be having a good time and leaning some life skills other than sailing, the family will be saving heaps of money and the child's education will not suffer.

 

My kids are similar age to Nathan Outteridge so I saw him progress through his junior classes. He won often enough that we all knew he has special abilities and he and his family obviously made big comitments and sacrifices. I know his family considered the points in my 4 questions. It worked out well for all of them. But there were other kids at those regattas who beat Nathan some of the time who did not go the Olympic route and now have successful careers in other aspects of real life, many no longer sail at all.

 

There is nothing wrong with what Julian has done here, but its pretty scarey if too many people take his work as the only plan for their child's sailing future.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Very interesting, but mum will over-analyse.

 

the answer is a no brainer - 29er. i am surprised you didn't see it :)

 

I am missing something about this whole exercise - i also don't like the phrase pathway - just me.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

as far as the 29er, way too many people see it as a pathway boat or an elitist boat. Frankly, i have never had more fun in a dinghy. Im too small (ok too weak) for a 49er or I14, and certainly dont have enough money to buy to drive. It's fun and technical (as far as sailing, not tuning - obviously) in the light to medium winds, and just plane (pun intended) fun in breeze. Small enough to be able to throw it around, but enough power that it rips along pretty good. If my boat doesn't sell anytime soon i may make a re-entrance to the class - would certainly be a lot of fun to play with the newly approved turnbuckles instead of the damn pin-plates.

 

A bit of a diversion from the threads intended purpose but we've jumped the rails into the ravine a long time ago at this point.

 

I really think it's obvious though, opti or some other singlehander - doesnt matter much so long as it sails, some double hander or more powerful single hander (if the aim is the olympics, doesn't matter much but the 420 serves its purpose), then 420->470 or 29er->49er/N17. Curious to know about the 13ft skiff, though.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I have not read all the post but all of Julians, great work and I will certainly printing a copy and taking it down to my local club.

Its a great guide for some parents.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Ha, I crewed on an F18 for the first time on Sunday and this graph explains why I'm sore all over! It's a great plot but yes, flip it around the Y axis so the boat power goes up to the right. I think it should get as many boats on it as possible as it's a great way to consider the differences. It would also be great to post the data in table form here if you could, as we could monkey around with it.

 

As for the original question, as the father of an occasional Opti racer and general observer of the scene, I'd have to say you want to be in the fleet with the best sailors in your area and the best coaching and the biggest fleets for at least some length of time. Maybe not if the fleet is the Sunfish though (which should be on the plot by the way) . Racing the F18 was an interesting experience as there is obviously a lot of complexity and boat specific movements but that all has to be layered on top of pure sailing skill and racing knowledge which would be well gained in any boat where you have lots of great competition and useful feedback. Look at Peter Burling jump from Moth to AC fortysomething to 49er and win it all.

 

Around here it's Opti's to 420s for early teens and then 29ers after, which seems completely sensible.

 

As far as plots go, learn Matlab. Unless you're a senior manager and then scare your staff by learning Tableau.

 

ps. The Welsh 29er world videos looked awesome.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

What is the view on the number of steps between baby boats like opti and sabots, and must be adult sized boats like the 49er and i14? Single step between, such as the 29er, or is it worth doing the f11 type intermediate dinghy before a youth boat?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Hi all!

 

Would it be possible to get the raw data behind the plot? For my job (researcher in uni) I make a lot of graphs, and I'd like to make a pretty version of this

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

There is nothing wrong with what Julian has done here, but its pretty scarey if too many people take his work as the only plan for their child's sailing future.

 

well said.. I don't mean to disparage what Julian's doing here - it makes sense; but it also makes me sad for sailing in general.

 

I don't think the olympics does sailing any favors

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I like that Bill Lee quote.

 

Good on the mom if she wants to fund the whole effort and schlep the SUV around the nation and the world to all the events; pretty cool way to experience Europe etc. and get schooled in the international politics of big sailing events. Lots of good lessons to be learned and one should never let school interfere with one's education, to borrow from Mark Twain.

 

I think the progression along the graph has far more significance than the original question though.

 

The elephant on the graph seems to be the spinnaker. Re-doing the graph without any spinnakers tells a different story; I expect the 49er starts to look fairly pedestrian.

 

That Hollom dude had one thing completely wrong: an AC in oversized Moths would be completely epic and this is where things will head (and are heading rapidly) at the apogee of the competitive sailing world. If you want your kid sailing in the Olympics in 20 years then get them a Moth because the boats in vogue today will simply not be there any longer.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

its pretty scarey if too many people take his work as the only plan for their child's sailing future.

 

Was there some danger of anyone doing that?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The point is that the fastest boats are no longer kite boats, and that there will be continuing pressure at the Olympic level to replace skiffs with a foiler. I don't recall many spinnakers being used on the AC72s for instance. If you have a spin, your platform is outmoded, at least at the pointy end of the design curve.

 

And an IC is plenty of fun without a spin, whether or not you call it a skiff.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Julian divided his chart with the red line to show which boats go faster than the wind and those which do not.

What ATG is talking about is the next line which Julian has not drawn.

1. Below Julian's red line boats sail downwind square or near square to the wind. These are most of the 20th century style boats with no spinnaker or small ones.

2. Above Julian's red line boats sail angles at speeds greater than the wind speed.

This upper group can be further divided:

2a. Those which bring the apparent wind to just forward of the beam and in doing so reduce the apparent wind strength. These are the modern skiff and car types typically with extras set off bow poles and with two crew on trapeze.

2b. The new group which Julian does not separate, go fast enough to bring the apparent wind well forward of the beam and start to increase the stength of the apparent wind due to boat speed, the difference being clear when it becomes impossible to keep a spinnaker set. Until this century these only included Ice boats and land yachts, but now foiling has added firstly moths, then AC72s and now Kite foilers and even ACats. It was not obvious to everyone the day the AC72 decided not to set their reachers for the downwind legs marked a milestone in the practice of sailing downwind on wet water.

 

Foiling will not take over the whole sport of sailing but it is likely to become more prominent where sponsors or specators demand more performance or spectacle, hence ATG predicting that Olympic classes may change, just like the AC has.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The original purpose of Julian's analysis has to be or only a limited number of aspirational parents.

 

Firstly only one crew from the best 25 nations make it to the Olympics, and of these only about half end up making a career as pro sailors. (These are the exceptional ones, with special intrinsic abilities and who's families have made incredible sacrifices to get them there.) There are very limited oportunities at the end of the long road. Even at big Olympic class regattas there will be maybe 4 times that number of crew with some sort of Govt support trying to gain these 25 places. (based on 2 or more crews from 40 to 50 countries.) So somone without such support has some tough competition to conquer.

 

Secondly, for those outside Europe the cost to compete in large international fleets goes up many fold, second boats as Julian stated, or freight, plus fares and accommodation for long periods.

 

Thirdly to do this time at the regatta circuit, the youth's education has to be compromised, first school and then tertiary. Even if they do manage to complete a fragmented vocational course they start their career later than their same age peers and hence limit their earning capacity.

 

So even ignoring the child's demonstrated sailing ability, before answering the first questions back to such a parent might be:

1. Can your family afford the time and cost required?

2. Do you or your child want them to have another qualification and career?

3. Does the child like sailing to the detriment of almost everthing else in life?

4. Can you and the child accept that the chance of making the Olympics is statistically very low.

 

If the answers to all these questions is YES then the parent should go the next step and consult Julian's chart.

 

If not then the child and family may be much better off with lower aspirations. They should probably look more closely to the biggest class in their area where similar aged kids are enjoying the sailing, competition and social life. If the child ends up a local champion very quickly then they might like to reconsider the 4 questions again. If not they will be having a good time and leaning some life skills other than sailing, the family will be saving heaps of money and the child's education will not suffer.

 

My kids are similar age to Nathan Outteridge so I saw him progress through his junior classes. He won often enough that we all knew he has special abilities and he and his family obviously made big comitments and sacrifices. I know his family considered the points in my 4 questions. It worked out well for all of them. But there were other kids at those regattas who beat Nathan some of the time who did not go the Olympic route and now have successful careers in other aspects of real life, many no longer sail at all.

 

There is nothing wrong with what Julian has done here, but its pretty scarey if too many people take his work as the only plan for their child's sailing future.

 

Wow.... Substitute sailing for any sport you like in this quote, and this is great advice to so many parents.

How often do you hear (like I did on the weekend) oh little penelope has wanted to be an olympian since she was 7 years old. No, actually mum you have wanted your child to be an olympian since she was 7. The reality is you are setting your child up for failure from a very early age. Just forget about the olympics, and let them enjoy their sport!!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Hi, been asked for a clearer copy, this is the best I can get off the lappy without Photo Manager which Windows 8 dose not have.

 

Mustang, 29er worlds footage is sensational. Yes I am biased but the tracking and the imagery was all great, credit to the class.

Phwelhie, the drive there was worth it, but the venue is quite extraordinary, quite possibly the best in the UK.

Few more hotel beds would not hurt, but all new, impressive club house, good wind, no traffic.

intuitively, that graph would work better (for me at least) if going left from the Y axis is less power instead of more power. this would give you the fastest and most powerful boats in the top right corner and the slowest and heaviest in the bottom left. I like the graph!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Great thread - the original mum's question is a fine one. Here in our Hong Kong Oppie fleet, the kids fool around at "doing oppie9er" which involves sailing along while standing on the gunnel, doing the best they can to make the Oppie into a skiff before inevitably falling off. You can see their aspirations for when they age out of the Oppies!

I'd be interested if Julian can have a go at plotting the Open Bic on his chart. Not a huge leap upwards from the Oppie, but with an unstable skiff-like hull & plenty of fun to sail.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Interesting idea this plot.

 

But,

 

Notice that basically "requirements" for moving towards a 49er fall out of this as follows:

 

1. Trapeze a must.

2. Pretty fast boat that planes a lot of the time.

Now along the "pain in the ass difficult" is good for moving towards the 49er, I'll note that back in the 90s I sailed both the 505 and the international (not the club) 420. With the wind up, there was no comparison. The 420 was considerably more difficult to sail because everything happens faster. So the 505 may be too good of a design--to easy to sail in big wind--to train you for a 49er?

 

See the performance numbers really don't tell all the story. What are the skills needing development? How do you go about developing them? At a reasonable cost? I think the 29er was supposed to do that?

 

 

FY, every 29er skipper gunwale swings, yet they have no issue what so ever going double trapeze-ing on a 49er every chance they get.

My take, and I know I'm getting subjective here which I really want to avoid is that trapeze-ing is functional, it can be learnt by just about anyone and with practice you get good at it. Apparent Wind Sailing [AWS] is subliminal, it has to become intuitive. Bit like learning a 2nd language, got to do it before your 17-18 or it becomes a whole different learning problem.

 

Re fast boats, there is very much a place for going out sailing in a slow boat in a big fleet, Laser for instance and learning the discipline of grinding out those places and being very tactical. Sailing a single hander is great because you can't blame anyone else when you muck up.

 

But nothing beats learning to work as a team. And learning in a fast boat just exaggerates that process because get it wrong you get wet.

The graph is a good start but subjectively we know the boats are very different. I'd put it this way: we all know what the path to a 505 might be and several years ago a mum might ask how can I get my kid to the 505 WC's? The answer was sail smaller boats with similar characteristics and that meant 420 then 470 then 505. I sailed the 470 a lot a few years ago and once I had the opportunity to fun sail a 505 it was easy except for a few spin gear differences otherwise it was just a bigger 470 except it was easier because there was so much space and stability. Trying a 29er was a whole different kettle of fish, the boat is simple (as is a 49er) because there are few strings to pull but the boat is extremely tippy and if you don't know how to handle an assym kite on an AW boat you're screwed.

 

I think it's pretty clear that a 29er is the last boat before the 49er especially for girls with the 49erFX (would be nice to see where that shows on the graph) but what's not clear is what is the boat between 29er and the learn to sail boat on the bottom (assume Opti)? i guess it doesn't need to be too specific... The (/one of the boats) needs to be a 2 hander to develop those skills but at some age when it's still instinctive the kid needs to understand apparent wind. If the kid's a hot shot 420 sailor one trick might be to get them crewing/driving a sport boat.

 

The problem I find with the "progression" particularly the Opti is the 13 year old kid still racing Optis and dominating, at that point the kid should be further up the curve (literally Julian's curve) maybe not so elite but learning new boats and skills. The thing that impresses me about the truly great Olympic (and pro) sailors isn't how good they are at their particular boat but it's how they can jump out of that boat and jump into something totally different and dominate.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I would think that chosing a class with a strong class association, strong support by the national sailing organisations and many squads, trainings as well as regattas (especially on big sailing waters) would be the first priority, rather than “power to weight” ratios.

 

If there is still more than one boat to chose from for the respective age group, prefer the doublehanded. 29er and RS Tera/Feva/500 (the latter missing in the chart) are only slowly gaining traction outside the UK, so for many European countries there will be zero asymmetric kite alternatives.

 

In our part of Germany kids still cannot get around the good ol’ bath tub followed by either Laser or int420 if they want to have fun with other kids at all.

 

In my mind many of the faster boats shown are not a “pathway” boat but rather an 49er alternative for adults if they do NOT aim at the Olympics (anymore). Flying Dutchman and RS800 would fit in there, too.

 

While the graph may not answer the question wealthy and time rich mommies are/should be asking it is still an interesting read for someone who is far from aiming at Olympics but interested in dinghy design itself J

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

interesting stuff. for all the bullshit on this site there are some real gems.

 

whats the rest of that story atefoot?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I've got it. Been a few years since i read it, and at that i was totally focused on the weather sections and a little bit of sail trim. Is it one of the stories from the forward? I do remember really loving the history overview.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Great thread - the original mum's question is a fine one. Here in our Hong Kong Oppie fleet, the kids fool around at "doing oppie9er" which involves sailing along while standing on the gunnel, doing the best they can to make the Oppie into a skiff before inevitably falling off. You can see their aspirations for when they age out of the Oppies!

 

I'd be interested if Julian can have a go at plotting the Open Bic on his chart. Not a huge leap upwards from the Oppie, but with an unstable skiff-like hull & plenty of fun to sail.

 

From the figures on that page: http://www.vaurien.it/www.vaurien.it/Info_Tecniche_-_regolamento_di_Stazza_attivita_zonale_files/PY%20CLDist2010.pdf

The Open Bic would be halfway between the Opti and the Topper in performance. PY=1454

 

I don't know about the Power to weight ratio, nor how it's calculated...

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Cyrille, with a PY number (1454) for the Bic, its pretty easy to add it to the graph, P/W and the rest of it is easy once I get home which is about a week away.

 

Currently in far NW Scotland.

 

I will get to it and other questions then if I may.

 

Jb

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Fascinating chart - as teenagers (many) years ago, my brother and I learnt the delights of Apparent Wind Sailing in a 505 and International Canoe, respectively. Whilst I suspect that both are a little dated now, one very important point was that the 505 in particular was cheap - my brother bought a (slightly damaged) old ex-world championship boat from an airline pilot for £100. Yes, he had to repair it, and buy some second-hand sails to get going, but it served many good years - a long bamboo cane tiller extension from my IC meant that he could trapeze it single-handed, and the boat was stable enough that he could also induct non-sailors into the finer points of trapezing.

 

No, they did not lead us to a pathway of world championships, but they did teach us a lot and were quite simply, great fun.

 

When my brother DID eventually decide to buy a 49er, he sold the 505....

 

...to the airline pilot's son....

 

...for £100.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Fascinating chart - as teenagers (many) years ago, my brother and I learnt the delights of Apparent Wind Sailing in a 505 and International Canoe, respectively. Whilst I suspect that both are a little dated now, one very important point was that the 505 in particular was cheap - my brother bought a (slightly damaged) old ex-world championship boat from an airline pilot for £100. Yes, he had to repair it, and buy some second-hand sails to get going, but it served many good years - a long bamboo cane tiller extension from my IC meant that he could trapeze it single-handed, and the boat was stable enough that he could also induct non-sailors into the finer points of trapezing.

 

No, they did not lead us to a pathway of world championships, but they did teach us a lot and were quite simply, great fun.

 

When my brother DID eventually decide to buy a 49er, he sold the 505....

 

...to the airline pilot's son....

 

...for £100.

The "brother" here - latest update, I am trying to swap my 49er with a young lad in the sailing club's 29er. He gets a cheap way into 49er sailing and I get a boat I can (1) put a spare 49er tiller extension on and sail single handed for fun and (2) induct my two kids (13 and 11) into the joys of fast dinghy sailing.

As an aside, my latest toy looks somewhat like a 29er that has been put on 2x on the photocopier...

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

atg Phill explains what you are confusing, having been a part of the local IC scene here back in the 90s at no stage do they consider themselves a skiff, note some IC chaps have broken away & have kites. Going back to the ICCCC (Little Cup) in 1989 while chatting with all the past & present legends it was explained to me very proudly about C Class not needing soft sails, i pointed out a recent multi fleet race that the Aus C won by a fair margin, then 18s mixed in with a sole Tornado with kite, a long way ahead of any without. ( back in the day class rig) What you must understand, and many posts by folks who sail on millponds will wise you up, in no breeze you need *grunt. Why the AC45 & 72 have both jib & kite,to use when conditions are NOT optimal, because after all this is sailing, when max speed is achieved soft sails turn inside out from going that fast! Moths overcome this by very rigid batterns set into camber control devices, At the Aus speed sailing championships in 1991 it was facinating watching the early sails with these controls and pre rigged set ups of varying sizes & reynolds number config,(sail depth & aero shape) to suit the desired wind strength V leverage of board rider. Again they did not need a kite, currently the fastest wind powered device that can sail a course is .. a kite powered board! The speed at which the IOC choose gear means that even folks rutting on a sofa now, do not have to rush any decisions about Olympic pathways for little sprog just yet. :)

 

* maybe check out some moth blogs to see how they go from not enough rag to too much and how they control this issue. BUT in mixed fleets on a millpond when lowriding it takes a very skilled Mothy to beat the chute boats.

It was entertaining to see Ainslie come cooking past Burling at the finish of that race in Goteborg, foiling on the gennaker in light air, to your point.

 

It would be fun to put an IC on foils but I sold it.

 

I used to have a moth blog but now I have two boys. The blogosphere will rise again. It was too entertaining not to.

 

The ability to show up at a high profile international regatta and do well seems to include a skill set which is totally non boat-specific. Getting kids into that scene for youth worlds etc is probably a very important thing, no matter what boat.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Hi all, finally got some spare time to flip the graph as asked and add the Open Bic.

 

Enjoy, Jb

post-26198-0-07043200-1442189551_thumb.jpg

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Hi all, finally got some spare time to flip the graph as asked and add the Open Bic.

 

Enjoy, Jb

Great graph! Can you add a Buccaneer 18 for me?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Probably not as I dont even know what it looks like and I don't believe it has ISAF or RYA numbers, plus it would require me to be subjective. I'm not keen on being subjective.

 

Upside is that I was approached by a European student who wanted to turn the project into something more interactive so maybe some time soon you will have something non Bethwaite and useful!

 

Jb

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

Hi all, finally got some spare time to flip the graph as asked and add the Open Bic.

 

Enjoy, Jb

Great graph! Can you add a Buccaneer 18 for me?

 

slightly below and to the right of the 470 I think if you look at the US Portsmouth numbers although the 470s performance advantage is mostly in stronger breeze where the light weight and trap pay.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Hi all, finally got some spare time to flip the graph as asked and add the Open Bic.

 

Enjoy, Jb

 

Thank you for the updated graph! It's great, and more intuitive with the power axis to the right.

 

Just a small spelling nitpick. It's RS Feva, not Veva, but that's me really being pedant! ;)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Probably not as I dont even know what it looks like and I don't believe it has ISAF or RYA numbers, plus it would require me to be subjective. I'm not keen on being subjective.

 

Upside is that I was approached by a European student who wanted to turn the project into something more interactive so maybe some time soon you will have something non Bethwaite and useful!

 

Jb

No worries. I have no idea what ISAF or RYA even is!??? International Sailing something something and Royal Yacht something???

 

North American boat so has a US Portsmouth number as pointed out above.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

If we go back to the original request which was how can little Johny progress from Oppy to 49er, then its clear thanks to Julians plot that most dinghies sit on a curve which when applied to his latest plot initially starts as a vertical line before veering off to the right. By and large all boats fall within a reasonable spread either side of this line, with the exception of the IC. So in real terms it shows that any boat along this line could provide progression towards the 49er.

 

BUT

 

As others have stated, what is driving the desire to progress to the 49er? Is it pushy parents keen for their offspring to achieve something that they wish they'd known about and been able to have a go at, or is it a genuine desire by the children to aspire to the 49er?

Having been a 49er sailor I can understand the appeal and Im sure if I were a 12yr old attending the Dinghy Show I'd probably be leaving telling my parents that I want to sail a 49er or a Moth, but high performance sailing is just a small branch of a much larger tree, and in todays box ticking environment Im sure many will have a go, tick the box and move on to something else.

 

I started my sailing well down the curve, gradually progressing along it, all the way to 49er. It wasn't planned I just got drawn that way over time, but interestingly I am rapidly moving back down the curve, back to a different type of sailing. My first backward step if you like, sent me way off, firmly into the top left box, but now I am well and truly in the bottom left box, and actually I think I am enjoying my racing more and its not just me, its certainly feels in the UK that the HP era is peetering out save for the 5 ring circus wanabees in the 9er and the Moth. Boats like Solos, OKs, Fireballs, RS200, Aeros and even Lasers are drawing more people into close boat-on-boat racing where everyone is close together on the water and jostling for position the whole way around the course.

 

High performance sailing will live on, as sure as eggs are eggs, people will want to sail fast, but I see it becoming a minority activity.

 

For the first time in years, youth teams are taking part in events in boats like GPs and Graduates which wern't deemed cool but it seems we are entering a retro phase!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Kid wants to sail in a 49er when he grows up.

Kid also needs to move up classes as he grows.

Mum wants to make an informed choice so that class pathway makes it easier for kid to go into a 49er when old enough.

There is nothing saying he must go into a 49er, or stopping choosing another path if he desires. Unless there is some other compelling reason to choose classes outside this pathway, why not keep the 49er option open?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

A bit over a month ago, I promised to dig out the sail price scheduled. So here it is.

 

This dose not need peer review as its been extruded out of ISAF sub committees a few times.

 

First time was 2000, and its been updated approximately every 2 years since.

 

Don't know who did this but is pretty self explanatory, prices come straight off the web, etc etc.

 

Not even going to try and justify the logic, others can do that, as I said its in common play now.

 

That's me I think, no more promises to for-fill~!

 

Jb

 

 

 

 

 

Oct-14 $USD Sail Type Web Cost Battens etc Assc costs Sail Cost Area Cost/sq m 49er Mainsail $1,742 $200 $100 $1,442 16.2 $89.57 49er Jib $835 $80 $100 $655 5.7 $114.91 49er Spin $1,866 $100 $1,766 31 $56.97 FX Mainsail $1,216 $150 $100 $966 13.8 $69.97 FX Jib $686 $60 $100 $526 5.4 $97.49 FX Spin $1,317 $100 $1,217 25.1 $48.50 29er Mainsail $893 $100 $60 $733 8.64 $84.84 29er Jib $483 $40 $60 $383 3.76 $101.88 29er Spin $920 $60 $860 19 $45.26 470 Mainsail $1,280 $1,280 9.45 $135.45 470 Jib $710 $710 3.59 $197.77 470 Spin $865 $865 12.16 $71.13 420 Mainsail $797 $797 7.4 $107.65 420 Jib $469 $469 2.8 $167.41 420 Spin $601 $601 9 $66.74 Nacra Mainsail $1,907 $1,907 14.45 $131.98 Nacra Jib $701 $701 4 $175.24 Nacra Spin $1,115 $1,115 18.5 $60.28 Laser Mainsail $565 $565 7 $80.71 Laser Radial Mainsail $525 $525 5.76 $91.15 Finn Mainsail $1,640 $1,640 10.2 $160.78 Optimist Mainsail $635 $635 3.3 $192.42 RSX Mainsail $974 $974 8.5 $114.59 Optimist Mainsail $635.00 $0.00 $0.00 $635.00 3.30 $192.42 Finn Mainsail $1,640.00 $0.00 $0.00 $1,640.00 10.20 $160.78 470 Mainsail $1,280.00 $0.00 $0.00 $1,280.00 9.45 $135.45 Nacra Mainsail $1,907.13 $0.00 $0.00 $1,907.13 14.45 $131.98 RSX Mainsail $974.00 $0.00 $0.00 $974.00 8.50 $114.59 420 Mainsail $796.59 $0.00 $0.00 $796.59 7.40 $107.65 49er Mainsail $1,742.00 $200.00 $100.00 $1,492.00 16.10 $89.57 29er Mainsail $893.02 $100.00 $60.00 $733.02 8.64 $84.84 Laser Mainsail $565.00 $0.00 $0.00 $565.00 7.00 $80.71 FX Mainsail $1,215.59 $150.00 $100.00 $965.59 13.80 $69.97 470 Jib $710.00 $0.00 $0.00 $710.00 3.59 $197.77 Nacra Jib $700.97 $0.00 $0.00 $700.97 4.00 $175.24 420 Jib $468.76 $0.00 $0.00 $468.76 2.80 $167.41 49er Jib $835.00 $60.00 $100.00 $675.00 5.70 $118.42 29er Jib $483.06 $40.00 $60.00 $383.06 3.76 $101.88 FX Jib $686.45 $60.00 $100.00 $526.45 5.40 $97.49 470 Spin $865.00 $0.00 $0.00 $865.00 12.16 $71.13 420 Spin $600.64 $0.00 $0.00 $600.64 9.00 $66.74 Nacra Spin $1,115.23 $0.00 $1,115.23 18.50 $60.28 49er Spin $1,866.00 $100.00 $1,766.00 31.00 $56.97 FX Spin $1,317.28 $0.00 $100.00 $1,217.28 25.10 $48.50 29er Spin $920.03 $0.00 $60.00 $860.03 19.00 $45.26

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Umm, as general philosophy I believe that all knowledge is good.

 

However I also need to convince myself that I can afford sailing as a hobby, so I need to NOT know this!

If you don't mind

:rolleyes:

 

FB- Doug

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Taking a side step, if you want to get little johnny to progress out of an opti, add windsurfing to the list.

 

After spending a summer windsurfing on some short boards when I was in college(many moons ago), every boat seemed much easier.

I sailed a 505 in the day. Going from windsurfing to 505 sailing made the 505 seem like it was in slow motion.

 

windsurfing... fairly cheap, you get strong, you can do it by yourself, it improves balance, you can learn a lot about how a sail works because it is in your hands, you get used to being tossed in the water.

 

If I wanted my boy to be a skiff sailor, I would put windsurfing in as a cross trainer.

I have never done kite boarding, so I don't know if it would have the same benefits.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites