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      Abbreviated rules   07/28/2017

      Underdawg did an excellent job of explaining the rules.  Here's the simplified version: Don't insinuate Pedo.  Warning and or timeout for a first offense.  PermaFlick for any subsequent offenses Don't out members.  See above for penalties.  Caveat:  if you have ever used your own real name or personal information here on the forums since, like, ever - it doesn't count and you are fair game. If you see spam posts, report it to the mods.  We do not hang out in every thread 24/7 If you see any of the above, report it to the mods by hitting the Report button in the offending post.   We do not take action for foul language, off-subject content, or abusive behavior unless it escalates to persistent stalking.  There may be times that we might warn someone or flick someone for something particularly egregious.  There is no standard, we will know it when we see it.  If you continually report things that do not fall into rules #1 or 2 above, you may very well get a timeout yourself for annoying the Mods with repeated whining.  Use your best judgement. Warnings, timeouts, suspensions and flicks are arbitrary and capricious.  Deal with it.  Welcome to anarchy.   If you are a newbie, there are unwritten rules to adhere to.  They will be explained to you soon enough.  
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DtM

2015 Sydney to Hobart

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  • Ragamuffin 52 - after a protest hearing a time penalty of 20% was applied under SI 20.1( B) for failing to comply with RRS 19.2( B) in an incident with ARK 323 shortly after the start

 

So could they have mitigated at the time by taking a penalty as per bay racing? Not having a copy of RRS19.2 or the SI's in front of me.

 

 

20.1 BEFORE CLEARING TURNING MARKS Z AND Y. (a) For an infringement of Part 2 of the RRS that occurs after the Preparatory Signal and prior to the boat clearing the relevant seamark (Mark Z/ Mark Y), the Two Turns Penalty under RRS 44.2 shall apply.

 

Yep, that is right, for the sake of two turns they could have been 2nd in IRC div 1 with a good shake at 2nd overall. If you crash with another boat while on port why wouldn't you take the turns just in case. They had to be aware there was a darn high chance of a successful protest and the other boat is always going to protest even if only for insurance purposes.

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Wouldn't call 5k hitting the wall on that boat where they are...they're still doing OK....but just under their required average now of 5.5k. Burnt up their average with extra miles clearing Tasman soft spot haven't helped.

they were very briefly at <2k, but back on speed again. they have a bit of wiggle room, can maybe afford to stall a couple of times

 

stalling now

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  • Ragamuffin 52 - after a protest hearing a time penalty of 20% was applied under SI 20.1( B) for failing to comply with RRS 19.2( B) in an incident with ARK 323 shortly after the start

 

So could they have mitigated at the time by taking a penalty as per bay racing? Not having a copy of RRS19.2 or the SI's in front of me.

 

 

20.1 BEFORE CLEARING TURNING MARKS Z AND Y. (a) For an infringement of Part 2 of the RRS that occurs after the Preparatory Signal and prior to the boat clearing the relevant seamark (Mark Z/ Mark Y), the Two Turns Penalty under RRS 44.2 shall apply.

 

Yep, that is right, for the sake of two turns they could have been 2nd in IRC div 1 with a good shake at 2nd overall. If you crash with another boat while on port why wouldn't you take the turns just in case. They had to be aware there was a darn high chance of a successful protest and the other boat is always going to protest even if only for insurance purposes.

 

Yeah well, always do the penalty, the insurance stuff will work itself out. Figured if contact was made would be at least a 720 just like the rest of us mortals have to/should do. Always teach the kids - if you get it wrong do the penalty, even if you get called and you don't think you should - do the penalty. And always do a penalty even if no-one saw you do the wrong thing - should be a no brainer given we all know when we do the wrong thing, mostly...

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Azzurro still doing 6.7 kts nearing Cape Raoul....Man, I would love to see her do this....it would give encouragement to all those who want to keep doing this race but will never be able to afford a TP52...... :)

 

 

what a headache..
if you like sail in light weather and to be competitive, buy a super maxi.
for hard weather - a small 50 years old boat.
so much for IRC, ORCI :rolleyes:

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And QA down to 2, Balance 1st again

 

... and they've just found some more breeze, gybed and are back 1st again.... this is going to be a long evening!

 

We can only hope a front blows through or something...

 

Current observations around the bay put the kybosh on a win .

post-14496-0-18543100-1451478874_thumb.png

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Azzurro still doing 6.7 kts nearing Cape Raoul....Man, I would love to see her do this....it would give encouragement to all those who want to keep doing this race but will never be able to afford a TP52...... :)

 

what a headache..

 

if you like sail in light weather and to be competitive, buy a super maxi.

 

for hard weather - a small 50 years old boat.

 

so much for IRC, ORCI :rolleyes:

I know 90% disagree but handicap racing is a load of shit especially over 2-3-4 days. If you are that serious race OD. Otherwise, you don't need a $10 trophy to realise you did a good job or not. Look at Teasing Machine, I'm sure they're satisfied they did well, After Midnight beat Midnight Rambler I'm sure After Midnight are happy. Chutzpah!! 15th on the line in 40'er, amazing effort!! Balance was hours ahead of the other TP's unlike WHISPER & ICHI only minutes apart so they obviously sailed very very well & also you need a bit of luck in all of this.

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QA's target average is now out to 6k.....its slipping away ...the Fat Lady is warming up to sing the Balance song

 

6 knots? It's all over red rover. Off to bed.

 

I just hope the two tail enders have some beers aboard and can see Hobart's new year's eve fireworks!

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....have you just drunk a jug of dumbshit juice Scanas.

 

There has been some extraordinary skill displayed by some of these guys, it isn't just a lottery and what motivates them ......well maybe you should ask around.

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I know 90% disagree but handicap racing is a load of shit especially over 2-3-4 days. If you are that serious race OD. Otherwise, you don't need a $10 trophy to realise you did a good job or not. Look at Teasing Machine, I'm sure they're satisfied they did well, After Midnight beat Midnight Rambler I'm sure After Midnight are happy. Chutzpah!! 15th on the line in 40'er, amazing effort!! Balance was hours ahead of the other TP's unlike WHISPER & ICHI only minutes apart so they obviously sailed very very well & also you need a bit of luck in all of this.

 

 

Well I agree that all handicap systems are crap.... however having said that, it has worked out pretty well this race. Earlier today I noted that the top 10 places alternated between small boats still racing and big boats already finished. Given that we are never going to get 110 OD boats racing to Hobart, you have to admit that after 3 days of varied conditions, that's a pretty good indication that handicap systems can often deliver a good approximation of close racing!

 

Also, the longer the race, then the more chance the handicap will average out for the varied conditions and give a fair race. The problem is the 1 sleep wonders that can get to the finish in a single weather system. We should have a handicap system that is distance based rather than time based. WOXI and Comanche should have to turn around at Gabo Island and race back to Jervis Bay, then do another loop at Freycinet to Flinder etc. Each boat is given their own turning lat/longs so that all boats will finish approximately on new years eve and first over the line wins! WOXI and Comanche will have to pack a few more hot meals and actually deal with fatigue etc!

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We should have a handicap system that is distance based rather than time based. WOXI and Comanche should have to turn around at Gabo Island and race back to Jervis Bay, then do another loop at Freycinet to Flinder etc. Each boat is given their own turning lat/longs so that all boats will finish approximately on new years eve and first over the line wins! WOXI and Comanche will have to pack a few more hot meals and actually deal with fatigue etc!

This hands down takes the cake for most retarded thing I've read this year.

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We should have a handicap system that is distance based rather than time based. WOXI and Comanche should have to turn around at Gabo Island and race back to Jervis Bay, then do another loop at Freycinet to Flinder etc. Each boat is given their own turning lat/longs so that all boats will finish approximately on new years eve and first over the line wins! WOXI and Comanche will have to pack a few more hot meals and actually deal with fatigue etc!

This hands down takes the cake for most retarded thing I've read this year.

 

 

Well I did say that all handicap systems are crap.... specially the ones I think up :)

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I know 90% disagree but handicap racing is a load of shit especially over 2-3-4 days. If you are that serious race OD. Otherwise, you don't need a $10 trophy to realise you did a good job or not. Look at Teasing Machine, I'm sure they're satisfied they did well, After Midnight beat Midnight Rambler I'm sure After Midnight are happy. Chutzpah!! 15th on the line in 40'er, amazing effort!! Balance was hours ahead of the other TP's unlike WHISPER & ICHI only minutes apart so they obviously sailed very very well & also you need a bit of luck in all of this.

 

 

Well I agree that all handicap systems are crap.... however having said that, it has worked out pretty well this race. Earlier today I noted that the top 10 places alternated between small boats still racing and big boats already finished. Given that we are never going to get 110 OD boats racing to Hobart, you have to admit that after 3 days of varied conditions, that's a pretty good indication that handicap systems can often deliver a good approximation of close racing!

 

Also, the longer the race, then the more chance the handicap will average out for the varied conditions and give a fair race. The problem is the 1 sleep wonders that can get to the finish in a single weather system. We should have a handicap system that is distance based rather than time based. WOXI and Comanche should have to turn around at Gabo Island and race back to Jervis Bay, then do another loop at Freycinet to Flinder etc. Each boat is given their own turning lat/longs so that all boats will finish approximately on new years eve and first over the line wins! WOXI and Comanche will have to pack a few more hot meals and actually deal with fatigue etc!

 

90% disagree and they might have a good reason for that. handicap racing can be very frustrating and people can cheat, but it's so good to see someone in an old boat compete against sail-stacking millionaires with a serious chance of showing them that they cant just buy success. i'll be happy if QA gets the win, but i still like that Balance can beat Ichi Ban, as long as they didnt cheat by stacking sails. that shit is an afront to the entire handicap sailing concept.

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....have you just drunk a jug of dumbshit juice Scanas.

 

There has been some extraordinary skill displayed by some of these guys, it isn't just a lottery and what motivates them ......well maybe you should ask around.

I just gave lots of examples of extraordinary skills. You don't need a trophy to have skills. Solidini isn't getting a trophy & he has mad skills. I'm just saying you need a rating killer & have a near perfect race to be in with a chance, but in a 2-3-4 day ocean race with numerous weather systems you'd pretty much need to have Neptune on the payroll & have the luck of the Irish to win one.

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KB has done a good job of sailing south around the tail enders... so the race for DFL is between 6 boats, maybe 12!

 

QA looks pretty safe to win Corinthian and the river would have to be really cruel to deny them ORCi!

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....have you just drunk a jug of dumbshit juice Scanas.

 

There has been some extraordinary skill displayed by some of these guys, it isn't just a lottery and what motivates them ......well maybe you should ask around.

I just gave lots of examples of extraordinary skills. You don't need a trophy to have skills. Solidini isn't getting a trophy & he has mad skills. I'm just saying you need a rating killer & have a near perfect race to be in with a chance, but in a 2-3-4 day ocean race with numerous weather systems you'd pretty much need to have Neptune on the payroll & have the luck of the Irish to win one.

 

are those blue bags full of the luck of the Irish?

http://www.sbs.com.au/news/sites/sbs.com.au.news/files/styles/full/public/20141229001082769506-original.jpg?itok=vbLTsgUv&mtime=1451421708i

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....have you just drunk a jug of dumbshit juice Scanas.

 

There has been some extraordinary skill displayed by some of these guys, it isn't just a lottery and what motivates them ......well maybe you should ask around.

I just gave lots of examples of extraordinary skills. You don't need a trophy to have skills. Solidini isn't getting a trophy & he has mad skills. I'm just saying you need a rating killer & have a near perfect race to be in with a chance, but in a 2-3-4 day ocean race with numerous weather systems you'd pretty much need to have Neptune on the payroll & have the luck of the Irish to win one.

So your saying just go out and ocean race with no handicap....how many will turn up for that other than 0D and LH boats?? Hobart watering holes will want your home address.

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....have you just drunk a jug of dumbshit juice Scanas.

 

There has been some extraordinary skill displayed by some of these guys, it isn't just a lottery and what motivates them ......well maybe you should ask around.

I just gave lots of examples of extraordinary skills. You don't need a trophy to have skills. Solidini isn't getting a trophy & he has mad skills. I'm just saying you need a rating killer & have a near perfect race to be in with a chance, but in a 2-3-4 day ocean race with numerous weather systems you'd pretty much need to have Neptune on the payroll & have the luck of the Irish to win one.
So your saying just go out and ocean race with no handicap....how many will turn up for that other than 0D and LH boats?? Hobart watering holes will want your home address.

I'm saying you don't need a rating system to tell you the first bloke home with a 40'er did a great job & that if two identical boats are racing anywhere and the one with the set of 7yr old sails beat the guys with all new gear then the bloke with 7yr old sails is a good sailor. In a 1 or 2 day race where the wind is pretty steady or inshore IRC is pretty good at rating all types of boats but 2-3-4 day ocean races with all sorts of weather it's a bit of a raffle. Obviously you need a great boat & race to be in with a chance but you could also have a great race & boat & get spat out the bottom of the rankings so it's not mark of a great race. Chutzpah being a prime example 18 places better than the next 40' & no trophy.

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SCANAS you sound like a helicopter parent wondering why their little Johnny didn't win a prize for participation or a PB.

 

Chutzpah will be sinking beers with the quiet satisfaction of a job well done. Anyone who needs more than that is looking in the wrong place for it.

 

There has to be a simple rating system so there is still something to determine who gets the pickle dish. IRC is the worst rating system except for all those others we tried (IMS anyone?).

 

Sailing involves weather which turns it into a bit of a lottery sometimes. NEWS FLASH. FILM AT 11. But seriously this happens in OD too, it's not something unique to rating racing. It's part of the sport and you learn to take your lumps.

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I usually figure when racing in a handicapped fleet that the position within class is a decent measure of performance, while the position in the overall fleet, especially in a long race, has more to do with who had the right conditions at the end than how well anyone sailed. You still have to sail well to win (if for no other reason than to beat the boats that rate similarly to your own), but once it's a couple days long or more. you get too many environmental considerations beyond your control impacting the end result.

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SCANAS yes it's not about winning or losing. It's all about taking part and doing the best you can do blah blah blah.

 

Trust me the crew of QA adhere to that philosophy and you will see no difference in their celebration should they win, come second or DFL

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Damn, go to bed for a few hours and everything turns topsy-turvey. Doesn't apper that QA could beat the clock and lack of wind in Storm Bay. Still, they sailed a hell of a race and will have a solid finish. Can't think of any in the top ten who aren't deserving...Teasing, Leon, Rose, etc. Good job all, and good job to the winner Balance.

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SCANAS you sound like a helicopter parent wondering why their little Johnny didn't win a prize for participation or a PB.

 

Chutzpah will be sinking beers with the quiet satisfaction of a job well done. Anyone who needs more than that is looking in the wrong place for it.

 

There has to be a simple rating system so there is still something to determine who gets the pickle dish. IRC is the worst rating system except for all those others we tried (IMS anyone?).

 

Sailing involves weather which turns it into a bit of a lottery sometimes. NEWS FLASH. FILM AT 11. But seriously this happens in OD too, it's not something unique to rating racing. It's part of the sport and you learn to take your lumps.

Not at all a "helicopter parent" I agree it's a lottery, that is my point.

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I have even more respect for the Balance crew after hearing that they had to make a mainsail repair during the race. It looks like they patched it with insignia or Dacron but even so!

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With Balance now assured of the Tattersalls Quikpoint Azzurro and Courier Leon are wrestling for #2 spot. QA needs to average 4.5k and currently doing 5.5k but fluctuating. She is now 8 mile from mouth of the Derwent where it is calm but little tide. There is pressure further up stream towards the finish.

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For all of IRC faults and the vagaries of different weather for different class boats in this race in particular, the podium winners were rarely if ever outside the top 10 from start to finish. That says something.

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True. I noticed that Hobart has this -to my eyes- unconventional tidal pattern, where a short tide is followed by a long one, followed by a short one. Do I read that correctly? If so, any specific reason? Where I come from, things are normally steadily up and down by 3m each time.

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True. I noticed that Hobart has this -to my eyes- unconventional tidal pattern, where a short tide is followed by a long one, followed by a short one. Do I read that correctly? If so, any specific reason? Where I come from, things are normally steadily up and down by 3m each time.

 

generally.., any location has 2 high and 2 low tides every day.., maybe not in exactly 24 hrs, but close.

 

generally, the heights of the 2 high tides, and the heights of the 2 low tide are not equal

 

in many places the heights of the two high tides and the heights of the two low tides are pretty close

 

however at some places on earth, there is often a large difference between the heights of the 2 high tides and/or between the heights of the 2 low tides

 

thus some places distinguish a high high tide, and a low high tide.., a high low tide and a low low tide

 

the height difference between the 2 high tides and between the 2 low tides varies from day to day - sometimes dramatically

 

in general, the time interval between the tides is not hugely different - just the amplitude

 

in the USA the pacific northwest has many locations with this kind of tide

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For all of IRC faults and the vagaries of different weather for different class boats in this race in particular, the podium winners were rarely if ever outside the top 10 from start to finish. That says something.

There was a good variety of boats in the top ten. I'd say the luck and timing of when the boats reached Storm Bay affected the results more than any inconsistencies in IRC. No handicapping rule is going to account for a well sailed boat that happens to get becalmed in the Derwent for 6 hours.

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Looks like the Derwent has gone light...QA at 1.9 kn with 9.9 Nm to go. They'll likely drop a couple more spots, but still pretty good for a top 5.

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Well, the people's favorite, QA, may be falling off the podium, but how about the Clipper 70, Da Nang, in 2nd?

 

DN, skippered by a Sydney girl and crewed by a largely amateur and partially female crew, definitely earned a shout-out.

 

The Clippers don't get much love in these parts.

 

But this one deserves some today!

 

what 2nd please?

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Well, the people's favorite, QA, may be falling off the podium, but how about the Clipper 70, Da Nang, in 2nd?

 

DN, skippered by a Sydney girl and crewed by a largely amateur and partially female crew, definitely earned a shout-out.

 

The Clippers don't get much love in these parts.

 

But this one deserves some today!

 

what 2nd please?

 

mis-read of the results. original post shit canned.

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.

 

.....Gawrsh,,,a crapload of boats finishing now,,,all of OZ went to sleep once the Tattersails was decided? :mellow:

 

 

 

 

For all of IRC faults and the vagaries of different weather for different class boats in this race in particular, the podium winners were rarely if ever outside the top 10 from start to finish. That says something.


There was a good variety of boats in the top ten. I'd say the luck and timing of when the boats reached Storm Bay affected the results more than any inconsistencies in IRC. No handicapping rule is going to account for a well sailed boat that happens to get becalmed in the Derwent for 6 hours.

 

 

.....agree KR,,,,the Storm Bay factor seems to cause many more variations than and handicap formula would. :mellow:

 

 

 

 

Tasman, on 30 Dec 2015 - 04:07 AM, said:

 

  • Ragamuffin 52 - after a protest hearing a time penalty of 20% was applied under SI 20.1( B) for failing to comply with RRS 19.2( B) in an incident with ARK 323 shortly after the start

 

Yep, that is right, for the sake of two turns they could have been 2nd in IRC div 1 with a good shake at 2nd overall. If you crash with another boat while on port why wouldn't you take the turns just in case. They had to be aware there was a darn high chance of a successful protest and the other boat is always going to protest even if only for insurance purposes.

 

Yeah well, always do the penalty, the insurance stuff will work itself out. Figured if contact was made would be at least a 720 just like the rest of us mortals have to/should do. Always teach the kids - if you get it wrong do the penalty, even if you get called and you don't think you should - do the penalty. And always do a penalty even if no-one saw you do the wrong thing - should be a no brainer given we all know when we do the wrong thing, mostly...

 

 

 

.....pretty busy in Sydney harbor at that time. There's enough precedent in rulings that it's clear that 'first reasonable opportunity' means -immediately-. If a boat waits for the intensity to die down even a bit,,,,they'd likely be penalized nonetheless. :mellow:

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QA is losing ground...unless they get a big puff to scoot them over the line Leon is going to slip in to 2nd.

 

Penalty...doing 720 turns in the harbor with 100+ boats starting in confined water that's also crowded with spectator boats sounds like a disaster in the making. My suggestion would be an amendment to the rules stating that the penalty turns for a foul commited in the harbor may be done ASAP after clearing the seabouy.

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RKoch, on 30 Dec 2015 - 11:30 AM, said:snapback.png

QA is losing ground...unless they get a big puff to scoot them over the line Leon is going to slip in to 2nd.

Penalty...doing 720 turns in the harbor with 100+ boats starting in confined water that's also crowded with spectator boats sounds like a disaster in the making. My suggestion would be an amendment to the rules stating that the penalty turns for a foul commited in the harbor may be done ASAP after clearing the seabouy.

......that'd overly minimize the foul. I'd think a ~30 to 60 minute penalty added to final time might carry appropriate weight.

 

 

 

 

....a big shout-out to Myuna III,,,now only 150nm to go!! :)

 

 

.....I wonder if there'll be any scallop pie left for them? :mellow:

 

 

Myuna III
7
Myuna-III.JPG
CATEGORY PLACING Line Honours 77 PHS 14 PHS - Div 2 8 * Click on the categories for full standings

DTG 150.7 SOG 6.8 COG 216 DTL 150.7 Position 41°40'S 149°16'E

 

Myuna III is an extended Cavalier 37, launched in 1991, and sailed regularly since then. Her only Hobart was the extreme 1993 race, under previous owner Dr Thomas Stokoe, and like so many others, retired. Stokoe also campaigned the yacht in multiple Melbourne-Hobarts, Melbourne-Portland and Melbourne-Grassy Island races. As Myuna III, she sailed in the 2014 Melbourne Vanuatu rally, which covers a distance of 1885 nautical miles. To this day, she still carries her original sail number, and like Stokoe, Geoff Nixon is representing the Sandringham Yacht Club, but Nixon plans to get Myuna to the finish line this year.

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True. I noticed that Hobart has this -to my eyes- unconventional tidal pattern, where a short tide is followed by a long one, followed by a short one. Do I read that correctly? If so, any specific reason? Where I come from, things are normally steadily up and down by 3m each time.

 

generally.., any location has 2 high and 2 low tides every day.., maybe not in exactly 24 hrs, but close.

 

generally, the heights of the 2 high tides, and the heights of the 2 low tide are not equal

 

in many places the heights of the two high tides and the heights of the two low tides are pretty close

 

however at some places on earth, there is often a large difference between the heights of the 2 high tides and/or between the heights of the 2 low tides

 

thus some places distinguish a high high tide, and a low high tide.., a high low tide and a low low tide

 

the height difference between the 2 high tides and between the 2 low tides varies from day to day - sometimes dramatically

 

in general, the time interval between the tides is not hugely different - just the amplitude

 

in the USA the pacific northwest has many locations with this kind of tide

 

Whilst the tide variations between high and low water is not great, there are many factors to consider in the Derwent River and even Storm Bay.

See for future reference:-

http://www.emg.cmar.csiro.au/www/en/emg/projects/Derwent/Derwent-CCI--Hydro---Sediments.html

http://www.tidetech.org/sailing/news/Tricky_approaches_-_it_all_hangs_on_Hobart.html

 

In addition to tides, there can also be a strong outflow current if there is persistent rain in the catchment area, and weather patterns can also play a part when the pressure drops or rises on the barometer as there is a large body of shallow water within the Derwent at Ralph's Bay. General consensus on entering the river is to stick close to the Eastern Shore to avoid the worst of it (you can experience reverse eddies on an outgoing tide) and there is often a transition time to cross from east to western shores about White Rock if pressure is on the Sandy Bay/Taroona side with a sea breeze. Of note though compared to say Sydney Harbour, is that we rarely experience significant ocean swells unless there is a strong southerly for a few days.

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QA is losing ground...unless they get a big puff to scoot them over the line Leon is going to slip in to 2nd.

 

Penalty...doing 720 turns in the harbor with 100+ boats starting in confined water that's also crowded with spectator boats sounds like a disaster in the making. My suggestion would be an amendment to the rules stating that the penalty turns for a foul commited in the harbor may be done ASAP after clearing the seabouy.

Don't have to place your boat in danger to do the penalty, embarrasing another boat will get you another penalty, running into fixed obstructions won't help anyone either - way I see it you do the penalty at the first available safe time - if that means sailing past the next mark in restricted water that gives you enough clear water to do your penalty without interfering with any other racing vessel before completing your mark rounding then you can at least go to the protest room with a reasonable argument. If you don't try at all then you have nothing to do but take the punishment - which is always far harsher than the original penalty.

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QA is losing ground...unless they get a big puff to scoot them over the line Leon is going to slip in to 2nd.

 

Penalty...doing 720 turns in the harbor with 100+ boats starting in confined water that's also crowded with spectator boats sounds like a disaster in the making. My suggestion would be an amendment to the rules stating that the penalty turns for a foul commited in the harbor may be done ASAP after clearing the seabouy.

Don't have to place your boat in danger to do the penalty, embarrasing another boat will get you another penalty, running into fixed obstructions won't help anyone either - way I see it you do the penalty at the first available safe time - if that means sailing past the next mark in restricted water that gives you enough clear water to do your penalty without interfering with any other racing vessel before completing your mark rounding then you can at least go to the protest room with a reasonable argument. If you don't try at all then you have nothing to do but take the punishment - which is always far harsher than the original penalty.
I agree, but sometimes competitors and (especially) PCs have a view of ASAP meaning immediately.

I upset a couple of competitors at a CofC race one time. I snagged the anchor line of the windward mark, which dragged the mark into me and also kicked up the rudder. Boat careened off downwind, I was hanging over the stern unhooking the anchor line and then push the rudder back down before even considering getting out of the way and doing a penalty turn. A couple people couldn't even wait for that 20 or 30 seconds to elapse. Meh. I just think that if it was spelled out in the S2H SIs, then people wouldn't get their panties in a wad. Obviously if there's damage then a different situation gets addressed.

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QA is losing ground...unless they get a big puff to scoot them over the line Leon is going to slip in to 2nd.

 

Penalty...doing 720 turns in the harbor with 100+ boats starting in confined water that's also crowded with spectator boats sounds like a disaster in the making. My suggestion would be an amendment to the rules stating that the penalty turns for a foul commited in the harbor may be done ASAP after clearing the seabouy.

Don't have to place your boat in danger to do the penalty, embarrasing another boat will get you another penalty, running into fixed obstructions won't help anyone either - way I see it you do the penalty at the first available safe time - if that means sailing past the next mark in restricted water that gives you enough clear water to do your penalty without interfering with any other racing vessel before completing your mark rounding then you can at least go to the protest room with a reasonable argument. If you don't try at all then you have nothing to do but take the punishment - which is always far harsher than the original penalty.

 

 

I think they should make a sin bin box outside the heads. Make them clear the sea mark, head north to the box and cut some laps with a dark cloud hanging over your head and a film crew capturing it all on live TV. Then carry on south while no one talks to the tactician/helm for the next 5 hours or until it gets dark.

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....have you just drunk a jug of dumbshit juice Scanas.

 

There has been some extraordinary skill displayed by some of these guys, it isn't just a lottery and what motivates them ......well maybe you should ask around.

 

True re skill and motivation but...if Scanas doesn't have a point why have you guys spent three pages microanalysing every weather station up and down the Derwent? BOM doesn't have a skill-o-meter last time I looked.

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The rule 44.2 for penalty turns is quite clear:

 

After getting well clear of other boats as soon after the incident as possible, a boat takes a One-Turn or Two-Turns Penalty by promptly making the required number of turns in the same direction, each turn including one tack and one gybe.

 

Getting well clear as soon as possible does not suggest sailing around a few marks. In the situation described, just after the start, one must turn back, maneuver through the other boats and perform one's turns, which is no larger a challenge than if one were OCS. If that is beyond the skipper's ability then perhaps the regatta is beyond the skipper's ability?

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Azzurro still doing 6.7 kts nearing Cape Raoul....Man, I would love to see her do this....it would give encouragement to all those who want to keep doing this race but will never be able to afford a TP52...... :)

 

what a headache..

 

if you like sail in light weather and to be competitive, buy a super maxi.

 

for hard weather - a small 50 years old boat.

 

so much for IRC, ORCI :rolleyes:

I know 90% disagree but handicap racing is a load of shit especially over 2-3-4 days. If you are that serious race OD. Otherwise, you don't need a $10 trophy to realise you did a good job or not. Look at Teasing Machine, I'm sure they're satisfied they did well, After Midnight beat Midnight Rambler I'm sure After Midnight are happy. Chutzpah!! 15th on the line in 40'er, amazing effort!! Balance was hours ahead of the other TP's unlike WHISPER & ICHI only minutes apart so they obviously sailed very very well & also you need a bit of luck in all of this.

 

 

well said. A lot of sailors did well.. Some 40er surprised me.

 

Soldini, what a feat!

 

Leon, mindblowing..

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QA is losing ground...unless they get a big puff to scoot them over the line Leon is going to slip in to 2nd.

 

Penalty...doing 720 turns in the harbor with 100+ boats starting in confined water that's also crowded with spectator boats sounds like a disaster in the making. My suggestion would be an amendment to the rules stating that the penalty turns for a foul commited in the harbor may be done ASAP after clearing the seabouy.

Don't have to place your boat in danger to do the penalty, embarrasing another boat will get you another penalty, running into fixed obstructions won't help anyone either - way I see it you do the penalty at the first available safe time - if that means sailing past the next mark in restricted water that gives you enough clear water to do your penalty without interfering with any other racing vessel before completing your mark rounding then you can at least go to the protest room with a reasonable argument. If you don't try at all then you have nothing to do but take the punishment - which is always far harsher than the original penalty.
I agree, but sometimes competitors and (especially) PCs have a view of ASAP meaning immediately.

I upset a couple of competitors at a CofC race one time. I snagged the anchor line of the windward mark, which dragged the mark into me and also kicked up the rudder. Boat careened off downwind, I was hanging over the stern unhooking the anchor line and then push the rudder back down before even considering getting out of the way and doing a penalty turn. A couple people couldn't even wait for that 20 or 30 seconds to elapse. Meh. I just think that if it was spelled out in the S2H SIs, then people wouldn't get their panties in a wad. Obviously if there's damage then a different situation gets addressed.

 

It is the duty of all vessels to avoid a collision at all times - regardless of right of way. Blindly charging at a boat in trouble while screaming at them is just begging to share it fourfold... Damage is contact, contact is addressed by the penalty sections in the SI's. Damage causing a boat to withdraw is external to that process but will be dealt with privately and legally if need be - but it is seperate to racing. If someone is just punting boats off the course all over the place without any care race direction has ample chance to rub them out. Comes back to my first point, why not do the penalty at the earliest opportunity and get on with racing with a clear concience. Asap means just that, as soon as possible/practicable - can't bugger up other boats races to take a penalty, SI's normally state doing a penalty in clear water or off course and if that's a few miles down a narrow channel then so be it. Another 600 and something miles to go after that wasn't there...

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QA is losing ground...unless they get a big puff to scoot them over the line Leon is going to slip in to 2nd.

 

Penalty...doing 720 turns in the harbor with 100+ boats starting in confined water that's also crowded with spectator boats sounds like a disaster in the making. My suggestion would be an amendment to the rules stating that the penalty turns for a foul commited in the harbor may be done ASAP after clearing the seabouy.

Don't have to place your boat in danger to do the penalty, embarrasing another boat will get you another penalty, running into fixed obstructions won't help anyone either - way I see it you do the penalty at the first available safe time - if that means sailing past the next mark in restricted water that gives you enough clear water to do your penalty without interfering with any other racing vessel before completing your mark rounding then you can at least go to the protest room with a reasonable argument. If you don't try at all then you have nothing to do but take the punishment - which is always far harsher than the original penalty.

 

 

I think they should make a sin bin box outside the heads. Make them clear the sea mark, head north to the box and cut some laps with a dark cloud hanging over your head and a film crew capturing it all on live TV. Then carry on south while no one talks to the tactician/helm for the next 5 hours or until it gets dark.

 

Not so silly...

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Thank God or someone that Balance won!

For a boat to win this race that was built for regatta racing [yes it has been beefed up] as opposed to others she beat that are built for ocean racing is well deserved.

QA winning would have put yacht racing back 30 years plus!. Please also note QA's hull is lighter than a standard boat, the cabin/deck is not a S&S mould, it is lighter and shorter. The rig is also non standard

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The rule 44.2 for penalty turns is quite clear:

 

After getting well clear of other boats as soon after the incident as possible, a boat takes a One-Turn or Two-Turns Penalty by promptly making the required number of turns in the same direction, each turn including one tack and one gybe.

 

Getting well clear as soon as possible does not suggest sailing around a few marks. In the situation described, just after the start, one must turn back, maneuver through the other boats and perform one's turns, which is no larger a challenge than if one were OCS. If that is beyond the skipper's ability then perhaps the regatta is beyond the skipper's ability?

The 80 odd boats from two other start lines swarming the course means no matter who you are you will not be getting well clear of other boats trying to go back down the funnel, just end up fucking over a heap of smaller boats either by sucking out their wind, or forcing them to avoid... Any boat charging back down on top of the fleet will probably cause absolute mayhem. OCS you have a minute or so to duck back unless you are pinned - and it has been frightening to see anyone try that in the past.

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Thank God or someone that Balance won!

For a boat to win this race that was built for regatta racing [yes it has been beefed up] as opposed to others she beat that are built for ocean racing is well deserved.

QA winning would have put yacht racing back 30 years plus!. Please also note QA's hull is lighter than a standard boat, the cabin/deck is not a S&S mould, it is lighter and shorter. The rig is also non standard

 

Do you mean the rating/handicap of QA is not correct?

 

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The rule 44.2 for penalty turns is quite clear:

 

 

 

After getting well clear of other boats as soon after the incident as possible, a boat takes a One-Turn or Two-Turns Penalty by promptly making the required number of turns in the same direction, each turn including one tack and one gybe.

Getting well clear as soon as possible does not suggest sailing around a few marks. In the situation described, just after the start, one must turn back, maneuver through the other boats and perform one's turns, which is no larger a challenge than if one were OCS. If that is beyond the skipper's ability then perhaps the regatta is beyond the skipper's ability?

I suggest you read the amendments in the SI's. 2 turns applies for infringements in the harbour. The turns must be made before the sea marks. If you pass the sea marks with exonorating yourself then a scoring penalty applies. You ,just also inform JBW of your turns & lodge it on the declaration. Rules need to be read in conjunction with the NOR & SI's. If that is beyond the poster's ability then perhaps the topic is beyond the posters ability

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Old rule in the sailing instruction was no alternative penalty inside the harbour to discourage stupidity inside the harbour.

That seems to have been changed.

Also bigger issue with rags 52, if you cause serious damage ie other yacht retires you don,t get to exonerate with alternative penalty so should be a dsq.

Where is the jury findings?

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Thank God or someone that Balance won!

For a boat to win this race that was built for regatta racing [yes it has been beefed up] as opposed to others she beat that are built for ocean racing is well deserved.

QA winning would have put yacht racing back 30 years plus!. Please also note QA's hull is lighter than a standard boat, the cabin/deck is not a S&S mould, it is lighter and shorter. The rig is also non standard

QA gets about 5 trophies so they did well. Do they get a Rolex?

 

3RD IRC OVERALL

2ND IRC DIV 4

1ST ORCI OVERALL

1ST ORCI DIV 3

1ST CORINTHIAN CREW

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Old rule in the sailing instruction was no alternative penalty inside the harbour to discourage stupidity inside the harbour.

That seems to have been changed.

Also bigger issue with rags 52, if you cause serious damage ie other yacht retires you don,t get to exonerate with alternative penalty so should be a dsq.

Where is the jury findings?

Is there a definition about serious damage?

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Old rule in the sailing instruction was no alternative penalty inside the harbour to discourage stupidity inside the harbour.

That seems to have been changed.

Also bigger issue with rags 52, if you cause serious damage ie other yacht retires you don,t get to exonerate with alternative penalty so should be a dsq.

Where is the jury findings?

+1

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Where is the jury findings?

On the page 2 of the protest form. :lol:

Only PC and parties to the protest have copies. There's no requirement in the Rules to report these to the general public.

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re Another Fiasco.. YB tracker and S2H Tracker both showed them crossing the line and in the harbour before Patrice 6, yet the standings keep showing them as still not finished with 0.3nm to go- did they miss a mark or something? Or just a tracker glitch?

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....have you just drunk a jug of dumbshit juice Scanas.

 

There has been some extraordinary skill displayed by some of these guys, it isn't just a lottery and what motivates them ......well maybe you should ask around.

True re skill and motivation but...if Scanas doesn't have a point why have you guys spent three pages microanalysing every weather station up and down the Derwent? BOM doesn't have a skill-o-meter last time I looked.

Are your parents siblings?

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I think the penalty inside the harbour needs to be looked at.

 

Even being OCS, I reckon there should be a penalty outside the heads or points penalty or time penalty etc. Can you imagine turning back 100ft of supermaxi into 2 starting lines coming towards you, its insane. You are locked into a corridor because of the spectator fleet, so it's not like you can just doodle around off to the side of the course.

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Is there a definition about serious damage?

 

There's nothing in the Rules, but there are some hints in ISAF RRS Q&A's

 

Q&A 2010-31

Damage means physical harm caused in such a way as to impair the boat’s value, usefulness, or

normal function

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QA is losing ground...unless they get a big puff to scoot them over the line Leon is going to slip in to 2nd.

 

Penalty...doing 720 turns in the harbor with 100+ boats starting in confined water that's also crowded with spectator boats sounds like a disaster in the making. My suggestion would be an amendment to the rules stating that the penalty turns for a foul commited in the harbor may be done ASAP after clearing the seabouy.

Don't have to place your boat in danger to do the penalty, embarrasing another boat will get you another penalty, running into fixed obstructions won't help anyone either - way I see it you do the penalty at the first available safe time - if that means sailing past the next mark in restricted water that gives you enough clear water to do your penalty without interfering with any other racing vessel before completing your mark rounding then you can at least go to the protest room with a reasonable argument. If you don't try at all then you have nothing to do but take the punishment - which is always far harsher than the original penalty.
I agree, but sometimes competitors and (especially) PCs have a view of ASAP meaning immediately.

I upset a couple of competitors at a CofC race one time. I snagged the anchor line of the windward mark, which dragged the mark into me and also kicked up the rudder. Boat careened off downwind, I was hanging over the stern unhooking the anchor line and then push the rudder back down before even considering getting out of the way and doing a penalty turn. A couple people couldn't even wait for that 20 or 30 seconds to elapse. Meh. I just think that if it was spelled out in the S2H SIs, then people wouldn't get their panties in a wad. Obviously if there's damage then a different situation gets addressed.

It is the duty of all vessels to avoid a collision at all times - regardless of right of way. Blindly charging at a boat in trouble while screaming at them is just begging to share it fourfold... Damage is contact, contact is addressed by the penalty sections in the SI's. Damage causing a boat to withdraw is external to that process but will be dealt with privately and legally if need be - but it is seperate to racing. If someone is just punting boats off the course all over the place without any care race direction has ample chance to rub them out. Comes back to my first point, why not do the penalty at the earliest opportunity and get on with racing with a clear concience. Asap means just that, as soon as possible/practicable - can't bugger up other boats races to take a penalty, SI's normally state doing a penalty in clear water or off course and if that's a few miles down a narrow channel then so be it. Another 600 and something miles to go after that wasn't there...
There are three separate starting lines, different marks the different classes use to equalize the different starting lines, and a harbor full of spectator boats. You don't seem to grasp the fact that a yacht doing penalty turns for a minor infraction is going to possibly cause a much more serious situation for other yachts, or a spectator boat crowding in for a closer look not expecting a yacht to start turning circles. A 'sin box' (as it was tagged up thread) just outside the seabouy is a logical and safe location for yachts to do their turns for infractions committed inside the harbor.

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Anyone in Aus selling jpk yachts right now?

Join the queue! The yard is already inundated with orders after 2 Fastnett wins in a row, second hand boats are not hanging around in Europe...

 

For all the Irc haters just have a look at Gery, 2nd in this, 1st overall in Fastnett 2015, 4th overall and class win in 2013 Fastnett in a different boat. If you sail well you generally feature in the top.

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actually Oscar you are correct in the event of OCS

 

SIs want you to restart or 30% penalty

 

that could be hazardous

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actually Oscar you are correct in the event of OCS

 

SIs want you to restart or 30% penalty

 

that could be hazardous

Another case where a 'sin box' outside the seabouy would simplify matters.

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