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Jose Carumba

PJ Closes U.S. Facilities

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It looks like Palmer Johnson, one of the oldest and most respected yacht builders in the U.S. is closing its doors here. PJ built some great sailboats in its time. They will apparently re-open shop in The Netherlands.

 

About the closing: http://www.greenbaypressgazette.com/story/news/local/door-co/news/2015/09/02/palmer-johnson-close-facility/71605252/

 

About the move to The Netherlands: http://www.superyachttimes.com/editorial/62/article/id/14963

 

 

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The move to the Netherlands seems curious.

 

I can't believe that labor costs are any lower there vs the US. They are probably higher.

 

I would assume then that the move has more to do with relocating closer to potential clients and closer to their competition.

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What a loss for Sturgeon Bay. I just drove through Sturgeon Bay this past weekend passing both their facilities. Hard to believe they will not be there. What a run they've had, especially their heyday of building outstanding aluminum sailboats. Pat Haggerty was a visionary when he bought them and focused their efforts on aluminum welded hulls for custom boats. They also had a range of characters working there....Shuff Willman and BJ come to mind.

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Labor costs could be higher, but company taxes lower. I think it will be equal in those costs.

I know we are busy here, one more will not hurt, but am curious why they want to move. Supply chain ?

 

G161X-Datawatch-Sat.png

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LeoV,

 

The US Corporate tax rate is 35% along with a Wisconsin corporate tax rate of almost 8%, so the combined rate is 43%. I would think the labor rates between the US and Netherlands would be pretty close along with the craftsmanship of the workers. I'm wondering if the PJ ownership is not looking at the current tax/labor issues, but rather the potential for the implementation of a new luxury tax in the US that would again severely damage PJ's if they remained in the US. It has been floated around again beginning in 2011 as a means to 'make the rich pay'. The last time this happened in the '90's it was devastating to PJ's (not to mention the entire boat market in the US) and I don't think they've ever really recovered from the last luxury tax fiasco. If I was PJ ownership, even the mention of restating this tax would be enough for me to pack-up shop. Just guessing....

 

 

 

Labor costs could be higher, but company taxes lower. I think it will be equal in those costs.

I know we are busy here, one more will not hurt, but am curious why they want to move. Supply chain ?

 

G161X-Datawatch-Sat.png

 

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Where do I fit into this big picture?

 

Certainly the world needs good yacht designers.

 

I wonder who makes a really, really good buggy whip these days. I wonder if there is that guy if he does make a living making his buggy whips.

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LeoV,

 

The US Corporate tax rate is 35% along with a Wisconsin corporate tax rate of almost 8%, so the combined rate is 43%. I would think the labor rates between the US and Netherlands would be pretty close along with the craftsmanship of the workers. I'm wondering if the PJ ownership is not looking at the current tax/labor issues, but rather the potential for the implementation of a new luxury tax in the US that would again severely damage PJ's if they remained in the US. It has been floated around again beginning in 2011 as a means to 'make the rich pay'. The last time this happened in the '90's it was devastating to PJ's (not to mention the entire boat market in the US) and I don't think they've ever really recovered from the last luxury tax fiasco. If I was PJ ownership, even the mention of restating this tax would be enough for me to pack-up shop. Just guessing....

 

 

 

Labor costs could be higher, but company taxes lower. I think it will be equal in those costs.

I know we are busy here, one more will not hurt, but am curious why they want to move. Supply chain ?

 

G161X-Datawatch-Sat.png

 

"The US Corporate tax rate is 35% along with a Wisconsin corporate tax rate of almost 8%, so the combined rate is 43%."

 

True but those are nominal rates. Effective rates for many companies is slightly north of zero. GE comes to mind. In Wi, Diane Hendricks company has had years where her WI rate was 0. Don't know about her effective federal rate.

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It looks like Palmer Johnson, one of the oldest and most respected yacht builders in the U.S. is closing its doors here. PJ built some great sailboats in its time. They will apparently re-open shop in The Netherlands.

 

About the closing: http://www.greenbaypressgazette.com/story/news/local/door-co/news/2015/09/02/palmer-johnson-close-facility/71605252/

 

About the move to The Netherlands: http://www.superyachttimes.com/editorial/62/article/id/14963

 

 

My favorite = Nirvana

There's also tens of 1000's of cheap labor pouring into the EU.

 

Too cynical?

And some are washing up on their beaches.

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"The US Corporate tax rate is 35% along with a Wisconsin corporate tax rate of almost 8%, so the combined rate is 43%."

 

True but those are nominal rates. Effective rates for many companies is slightly north of zero. GE comes to mind. In Wi, Diane Hendricks company has had years where her WI rate was 0. Don't know about her effective federal rate.

 

 

You are an idiot, I don't know how else to put it. Trying to compare PJ's, a small privately held company to GE a large multinational publicly traded company is a hoot. GE also pays tax, look at their Income Statement. However, they are aggressive in keeping their profits offshore because of the abusive US tax rates. Nothing wrong or illegal about that. Regarding Diane Hendricks, her company went from an 'S' Corp to most likely a 'C' Corp so the company now pays the tax instead of her personally. Try to follow this article.....

http://www.jsonline.com/business/beloit-billionaire-pays-zero-in-2010-state-income-tax-bill-ep5js3j-155853835.html

 

I've owned a 'C' Corp, so trust me that you do pay taxes... when you don't it means your not profitable.

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There's also tens of 1000's of cheap labor pouring into the EU.

 

Too cynical?

 

You might be too cynical, unless they are highly skilled craftsmen accepting low wages....not sure that the case. <_< My brother was a finish cabinet maker at PJ's in the early 80's. While they hired him out of high school, he already had 24 semester classes of cabinet making - built a DN iceboat for his senior project. As you can imagine, their workforce are absolute craftsmen and sadly there are not too many places in Sturgeon Bay where they require those skill sets at this point in time.....

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"The US Corporate tax rate is 35% along with a Wisconsin corporate tax rate of almost 8%, so the combined rate is 43%."

 

True but those are nominal rates. Effective rates for many companies is slightly north of zero. GE comes to mind. In Wi, Diane Hendricks company has had years where her WI rate was 0. Don't know about her effective federal rate.

 

 

You are an idiot, I don't know how else to put it. Trying to compare PJ's, a small privately held company to GE a large multinational publicly traded company is a hoot. GE also pays tax, look at their Income Statement. However, they are aggressive in keeping their profits offshore because of the abusive US tax rates. Nothing wrong or illegal about that. Regarding Diane Hendricks, her company went from an 'S' Corp to most likely a 'C' Corp so the company now pays the tax instead of her personally. Try to follow this article.....

http://www.jsonline.com/business/beloit-billionaire-pays-zero-in-2010-state-income-tax-bill-ep5js3j-155853835.html

 

I've owned a 'C' Corp, so trust me that you do pay taxes... when you don't it means your not profitable.

 

I have a way to put it--stick it where the sun doesn't shine. Asshole

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Keeping labour on staff too hard with a bouncing market, more sub-contractors for even relatively small but very expensive shit on some big boats....however they are few on the ground or don't exist in the US anymore and a lot of other places, not just US having the same build exotic things problem. Dutch skill base in number, quality and smarts second to nowhere so that choice makes sense.

 

If skilled labour no longer an edge then everything might as well be made in China...then we are all fucked.

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Jack Sparrow sez: ...re. keeping labour on staff forever.----- "however they were few on the ground there, and don't exist in the US anymore and a lot of other places".

_________

Thus this is not just US having the same "build exotic things"

 

The Dutch wisely kept their slave labor offshore from their tiny country, keeping them in Borneo, Surinam and Dutch West Indies. They did not import them to Amsterdam, then keep them so long that they became actual citizens.

 

The Americans. not knowing better, imported many many many. Now they are citizens. Now what, if you are so damn smart....and smug.?.

 

.

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LeoV,

 

The US Corporate tax rate is 35% along with a Wisconsin corporate tax rate of almost 8%, so the combined rate is 43%. I would think the labor rates between the US and Netherlands would be pretty close along with the craftsmanship of the workers. I'm wondering if the PJ ownership is not looking at the current tax/labor issues, but rather the potential for the implementation of a new luxury tax in the US that would again severely damage PJ's if they remained in the US. It has been floated around again beginning in 2011 as a means to 'make the rich pay'. The last time this happened in the '90's it was devastating to PJ's (not to mention the entire boat market in the US) and I don't think they've ever really recovered from the last luxury tax fiasco. If I was PJ ownership, even the mention of restating this tax would be enough for me to pack-up shop. Just guessing.

 

 

They will not get a big tax break to come here, its a to small company.

But maybe PJ will find a clever way as many do.

Maybe a better deal on land as the crisis put down the price of land.

Example, area 1750 sq meter, 310.000 Euro ex tax (20 %). And above 2000 sq meter the price goes way down, to 15 Eure a sq meter.

 

Tax on profit, 20 % up to 200.000 euro profit, 25 % everything above.

But comparing taxes is difficult,

play with:

https://home.kpmg.com/xx/en/home/services/tax/tax-tools-and-resources/tax-rates-online.html

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Jack Sparrow sez: ...re. keeping labour on staff forever.----- "however they were few on the ground there, and don't exist in the US anymore and a lot of other places".

_________

Thus this is not just US having the same "build exotic things"

 

The Dutch wisely kept their slave labor offshore from their tiny country, keeping them in Borneo, Surinam and Dutch West Indies. They did not import them to Amsterdam, then keep them so long that they became actual citizens.

 

The Americans. not knowing better, imported many many many. Now they are citizens. Now what, if you are so damn smart....and smug.?.

 

.

dacarls I'm not quite sure what to make of your post but I will try with some facts.

 

Persons of European/ Indonesian decent (including second generation) or Indo's as they are called that came from Indonesia to the Netherlands post independence 65 years ago number today over 400,000. Approx 100,000 even made it to the US. These statistics do not support your view that the Dutch did not import any mixed race labour post independence.

 

As for your suggestion Indonesia provided the Netherlands with a source of slave labour to presumambly make things pre-independence for export, this is also hardly supported by the facts. Firstly, in that period the world inc the US, not just the Netherlands was a beneficiary of those exports. Secondly, for the most part those goods largely arrived in a hessian bag and were hardly manufactured items.

 

Unfortunately it is views like yours which give wannabe populist leaders like Donald Trump and others undeserved traction in the US. Migration has nothing to do with employment issues that US (and other countries) manufacturing industries have, be it cars, boats or whatever.

 

Have a look inside the yards of Holland Jachtbouw or Huisman's who started building boats in the late 1800's, and it becomes pretty obvious what the issue for PJ's was.

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Why they are moving to the Netherlands? Isnt it obvious? Because the Dutch are awesome! :lol:

Another reason could be that the majority of their clients either are European or keep their yachts here (read: around the Med).

It's also much cheaper for their servicing business to fly people a few hours than to fly halfway around the world, same goes for yacht overhauls.

Besides, almost everyone speaks English and infrastructure is excellent (broadband, airports, roads).

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Obvious and logic move. Better quality workforce and less bullshit at the same or slightly higher cost. As with most things US it was probably more talk and not so much results. They got fed up with al the show and not much go.

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Where do I fit into this big picture?

 

Certainly the world needs good yacht designers.

 

I wonder who makes a really, really good buggy whip these days. I wonder if there is that guy if he does make a living making his buggy whips.

 

Yes, there's one firm left in Springfield, which at one time had hundreds of makers of them

 

E

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Their more recent builds have been carbon fiber.

Didn't realize it, but you're spot on....my head is back in the aluminum days. I re-read the OP's second link and it's clear the focus is now carbon fiber hulls and only carbon fiber hulls. Looks like the hulls and structures are being built in Norway, so finishing them in The Netherlands makes business sense.

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I would guess simple geography has a lot to do with it...

 

I doubt PJ has built a single boat in the last decade or more, that has remained in the Great Lakes... Say you own one of their 150-footers, it's based in Ft Lauderdale, and you're considering sending it back to the yard for a refit...

 

 

b99316938z.1_20140723202052_000_god75icp

 

 

That trip would involve running up to and around Nova Scotia, across the Gulf of St Lawrence, around the top of the Gaspe, up the length of the St Lawrence river/Seaway to lake Ontario, thru the Welland Canal, down the length of Lake Erie, up the Detroit/St Clair Rivers, up Lake Huron and over the top of Michigan, and finally back down to Sturgeon Bay...

 

 

Triangle%20Loop.PNG

 

 

Seriously? Plus the fact, that route is off the table for most of the winter and spring each year... Once the sort of boats PJ is building these days leave the yard, I doubt they ever return...

 

America is no longer their market, unless they were gonna move to a place like Florida, or their old facility in Thunderbolt, their location in Wisconsin has to pose huge constraints on the yachts they'll be building in the future..

 

 

 

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"The US Corporate tax rate is 35% along with a Wisconsin corporate tax rate of almost 8%, so the combined rate is 43%."

 

True but those are nominal rates. Effective rates for many companies is slightly north of zero. GE comes to mind. In Wi, Diane Hendricks company has had years where her WI rate was 0. Don't know about her effective federal rate.

 

 

You are an idiot, I don't know how else to put it. Trying to compare PJ's, a small privately held company to GE a large multinational publicly traded company is a hoot. GE also pays tax, look at their Income Statement. However, they are aggressive in keeping their profits offshore because of the abusive US tax rates. Nothing wrong or illegal about that. Regarding Diane Hendricks, her company went from an 'S' Corp to most likely a 'C' Corp so the company now pays the tax instead of her personally. Try to follow this article.....

http://www.jsonline.com/business/beloit-billionaire-pays-zero-in-2010-state-income-tax-bill-ep5js3j-155853835.html

 

I've owned a 'C' Corp, so trust me that you do pay taxes... when you don't it means your not profitable.

 

 

No you are an idiot, which you proved by lining to Faux News.

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I would guess simple geography has a lot to do with it...

 

I doubt PJ has built a single boat in the last decade or more, that has remained in the Great Lakes... Say you own one of their 150-footers, it's based in Ft Lauderdale, and you're considering sending it back to the yard for a refit...

 

 

b99316938z.1_20140723202052_000_god75icp

 

 

That trip would involve running up to and around Nova Scotia, across the Gulf of St Lawrence, around the top of the Gaspe, up the length of the St Lawrence river/Seaway to lake Ontario, thru the Welland Canal, down the length of Lake Erie, up the Detroit/St Clair Rivers, up Lake Huron and over the top of Michigan, and finally back down to Sturgeon Bay...

 

 

Triangle%20Loop.PNG

 

 

Seriously? Plus the fact, that route is off the table for most of the winter and spring each year... Once the sort of boats PJ is building these days leave the yard, I doubt they ever return...

 

America is no longer their market, unless they were gonna move to a place like Florida, or their old facility in Thunderbolt, their location in Wisconsin has to pose huge constraints on the yachts they'll be building in the future..

 

 

 

In addition, for the Seaway and the Welland Canal they would probably have to hire a pilot as well

 

Instead, now they would have to cross the Atlantic to go to the Netherlands for a refit. While , technically this route is open all year round, is it really feasible in winter (honest question)? I ask as I know absolutely nothing about the capabilities and operational parameters of a 150' motor yacht.

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I would guess simple geography has a lot to do with it...

 

I doubt PJ has built a single boat in the last decade or more, that has remained in the Great Lakes... Say you own one of their 150-footers, it's based in Ft Lauderdale, and you're considering sending it back to the yard for a refit...

 

 

b99316938z.1_20140723202052_000_god75icp

 

 

That trip would involve running up to and around Nova Scotia, across the Gulf of St Lawrence, around the top of the Gaspe, up the length of the St Lawrence river/Seaway to lake Ontario, thru the Welland Canal, down the length of Lake Erie, up the Detroit/St Clair Rivers, up Lake Huron and over the top of Michigan, and finally back down to Sturgeon Bay...

 

 

Triangle%20Loop.PNG

 

 

Seriously? Plus the fact, that route is off the table for most of the winter and spring each year... Once the sort of boats PJ is building these days leave the yard, I doubt they ever return...

 

America is no longer their market, unless they were gonna move to a place like Florida, or their old facility in Thunderbolt, their location in Wisconsin has to pose huge constraints on the yachts they'll be building in the future..

 

 

 

In addition, for the Seaway and the Welland Canal they would probably have to hire a pilot as well

 

Instead, now they would have to cross the Atlantic to go to the Netherlands for a refit. While , technically this route is open all year round, is it really feasible in winter (honest question)? I ask as I know absolutely nothing about the capabilities and operational parameters of a 150' motor yacht.

 

They don't necessarily need to go back to the maufacturer for a refit. There are several refit yards in Florida which do good work.

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"The US Corporate tax rate is 35% along with a Wisconsin corporate tax rate of almost 8%, so the combined rate is 43%."

 

True but those are nominal rates. Effective rates for many companies is slightly north of zero. GE comes to mind. In Wi, Diane Hendricks company has had years where her WI rate was 0. Don't know about her effective federal rate.

 

 

You are an idiot, I don't know how else to put it. Trying to compare PJ's, a small privately held company to GE a large multinational publicly traded company is a hoot. GE also pays tax, look at their Income Statement. However, they are aggressive in keeping their profits offshore because of the abusive US tax rates. Nothing wrong or illegal about that. Regarding Diane Hendricks, her company went from an 'S' Corp to most likely a 'C' Corp so the company now pays the tax instead of her personally. Try to follow this article.....

http://www.jsonline.com/business/beloit-billionaire-pays-zero-in-2010-state-income-tax-bill-ep5js3j-155853835.html

 

I've owned a 'C' Corp, so trust me that you do pay taxes... when you don't it means your not profitable.

 

 

No you are an idiot, which you proved by lining to Faux News.

 

 

I'm not sure what 'lining' is, but you appear to take issue with the news source somehow being false. Huggy's always willing to learn and correct any mistakes, so please let me know where the report is incorrect or misleading. I chose to use a video 'link' instead of a newspaper article as I realize there are people out there with reading comprehension issues not to mention proof-reading lapses, so I chose the one that best fit the topic of this thread. It looks like the New York Times and LA Times also support the 'Faux News' report. Maybe you could help clarify where Huggy is wrong.... Here are the 'links'. :P

http://articles.latimes.com/1991-07-30/business/fi-245_1_luxury-tax

http://www.nytimes.com/1998/01/24/business/sailing-the-high-end-seas-luxury-craft-are-back-and-prices-are-bigger-than-ever.html?pagewanted=1

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I do not think they will get into Feadship alliance, but Vitters (who bought Greenmarine, a composite builder in the UK) works together now with Oceanco.

If Palmer works with both of them, it makes sense. They only will need an office.

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I would guess simple geography has a lot to do with it...

 

I doubt PJ has built a single boat in the last decade or more, that has remained in the Great Lakes... Say you own one of their 150-footers, it's based in Ft Lauderdale, and you're considering sending it back to the yard for a refit...

 

 

b99316938z.1_20140723202052_000_god75icp

 

 

That trip would involve running up to and around Nova Scotia, across the Gulf of St Lawrence, around the top of the Gaspe, up the length of the St Lawrence river/Seaway to lake Ontario, thru the Welland Canal, down the length of Lake Erie, up the Detroit/St Clair Rivers, up Lake Huron and over the top of Michigan, and finally back down to Sturgeon Bay...

 

 

Triangle%20Loop.PNG

 

 

Seriously? Plus the fact, that route is off the table for most of the winter and spring each year... Once the sort of boats PJ is building these days leave the yard, I doubt they ever return...

 

America is no longer their market, unless they were gonna move to a place like Florida, or their old facility in Thunderbolt, their location in Wisconsin has to pose huge constraints on the yachts they'll be building in the future..

 

 

 

In addition, for the Seaway and the Welland Canal they would probably have to hire a pilot as well

 

Instead, now they would have to cross the Atlantic to go to the Netherlands for a refit. While , technically this route is open all year round, is it really feasible in winter (honest question)? I ask as I know absolutely nothing about the capabilities and operational parameters of a 150' motor yacht.

A lot of those boats would just fall apart on a bad crossing, North Atlantic winter is definitely out for most of them.

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I do not think they will get into Feadship alliance, but Vitters (who bought Greenmarine, a composite builder in the UK) works together now with Oceanco.

If Palmer works with both of them, it makes sense. They only will need an office.

No way would Feadship dilute their brand.

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News says they aquired a boatyard in the Netherlands, wonder which one.

 

The plant of Jongert is for sale and Moonen is almost bankrupt and for sale.

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News says they aquired a boatyard in the Netherlands, wonder which one.

 

The plant of Jongert is for sale and Moonen is almost bankrupt and for sale.

 

Williwaw, you may be able to find out - take a look at the OP's second link - it has a photo of a PJ facility in the article. Definately not the Sturgeon Bay facilities. You may be able to identify....

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News says they aquired a boatyard in the Netherlands, wonder which one.

 

The plant of Jongert is for sale and Moonen is almost bankrupt and for sale.

 

Williwaw, you may be able to find out - take a look at the OP's second link - it has a photo of a PJ facility in the article. Definately not the Sturgeon Bay facilities. You may be able to identify....

 

No, that is the PJ Sturgeon Bay facility.

 

post-25831-0-15609800-1441388510_thumb.jpg

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The Jongert yard is still on the market with an asking price of €5m:

http://www.superyachttimes.com/editorial/35/article/id/14739

http://www.fundainbusiness.nl/bedrijfshal/wieringerwerf/object-48230852-kluisgat-1/

 

Its a big facility but IMHO not a great location since there is virtually nothing around for 10km and difficult to get a (mega) hull from there to the sea.

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News says they aquired a boatyard in the Netherlands, wonder which one.

 

The plant of Jongert is for sale and Moonen is almost bankrupt and for sale.

 

Williwaw, you may be able to find out - take a look at the OP's second link - it has a photo of a PJ facility in the article. Definately not the Sturgeon Bay facilities. You may be able to identify....

 

No, that is the PJ Sturgeon Bay facility.

 

attachicon.gifaaaPJ.JPG

 

 

My bad.... Damn, things have changed up there.... The condo's threw me off along with the perspective of the photo. Went through Sturgeon Bay last week for the first time in.....decades.... The development and changes were incredible. Still had a good meal at the SBYC - pan fried Walleye can't be beat. Looked like the Schoendorf's at Sturgeon Bay Yacht Harbor have also moved on.....

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This may have more to do with the Double Dutch with an Irish Twist.

 

International Corporations have set up operations in Netherlands and Ireland so that they can allocate profits to that entity (via licensing and other accounting) to avoid US corporate taxes. That means many entities have a LOT of cash which can't be brought back into the US without taxation. PJ may be seeking the ability to sell to these people/entities without forcing repatriation of the cash.

 

Maybe if we cleaned up our tax code so that International Corporations couldn't benefit from that trick, and smaller companies weren't burdened by such high rates - maybe a lower rate with stricter rules would help all of us. Just sayin'. It might keep companies like PJ from needing to move.

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How about a business perspective on the move?

When Pat Haggerty [Texas Instruments] (series of PJ boats called Bay Bea) bought PJs long ago it was two-fold. Protect the yachts he was having built to assure their completion, and modernized many efficiencies.

Pat's relation, Mike Kelsey, Sr. and now Mike Kelsey, Jr. has been running the yard for years.

When Andrew McKelvey [Monster.com] bought PJs it was to protect the yacht he was having built. McKelvey worked on expansion with facilities in Europe and in Savannah, GA during his ownership. The Georgia yard was later shuttered.

Currently Timur "Tim" Mohamed (Famous cricket player and businessman from England) owns PJs. He purchased the first of the SuperSport models. Again, purchasing the yard to protect his investment in the boat. It looks like he decided he could manage things easier closer to home.

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My how Sturgeon Bay has changed since my youth! The PJ yard used to be SE of the old bridge. I spent a lot of time there and I remember some things like yesterday:

Pulling into a parking spot and plugging in the block heater.

Falling in love with the first PJ43 imported from Nautor. The butternut interior trimmed in teak was to die for.

The day Fredrika stopped traffic on it while sunbathing nude on the foredeck of Namis. Biggest traffic jam in the town's history.

A drunken celebration at BJ's the night Nixon resigned.

A ride on Hagar.

When Kialoa III launched and Kilroy's wife had a huge rock fly off her finger at the christening. Right into the slip in October.

Watching them pour the 35,000 pounds of lead for the keel of one of the first mega yachts (Falcon?) One continuous pour over 24 hours. The turnbuckle for the cap shroud on her was bigger than my leg.

 

I sailed lots of fantastic miles on PJ's finest:

Several Scaramouches

Aura

Bay Bee

Dora IV (Tenacious)

Charisma

Bumblebee

Kialoa III

Built by craftsmen for owners far more involved with the process than today's. They steered their own boats with crews of their friends that did it for fun instead of a paycheck. Back then everyone partied together and the parties were legendary. Oh to be 21 again..........

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PJ chased higher-end markets to serve and the US market is saturated? Trickle down still doesn't work?

Income inequality is great, until the day that you cross from the have side to the have not side.

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I would guess simple geography has a lot to do with it...

 

I doubt PJ has built a single boat in the last decade or more, that has remained in the Great Lakes... Say you own one of their 150-footers, it's based in Ft Lauderdale, and you're considering sending it back to the yard for a refit...

 

 

b99316938z.1_20140723202052_000_god75icp

 

 

 

 

Can someone explain that bow to me?

 

What is that protrusion below the waterline supposed to do?

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I would guess simple geography has a lot to do with it...

 

I doubt PJ has built a single boat in the last decade or more, that has remained in the Great Lakes... Say you own one of their 150-footers, it's based in Ft Lauderdale, and you're considering sending it back to the yard for a refit...

 

 

b99316938z.1_20140723202052_000_god75icp

 

 

 

Can someone explain that bow to me?

 

What is that protrusion below the waterline supposed to do?

It creates a bow wave ahead of the bow wave...the trough from the first cancels the wave of the second. Reduces drag, just like bulb bow on a freighter.

Or maybe it's for ramming Greek Triremes...

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There's also tens of 1000's of cheap labor pouring into the EU.

 

Too cynical?

Nope.

Your both as sharp as bowling balls...there is a huge untapped labour market sitting in the high end European boat building industry??? They are welcoming with open arms anyone from the Middle East and Africa whose skill base is primarily related to sand, camels, donkeys, egyptian tomb repair, dates, mosque mosaics, Koran refurbishment and the like?? If your correct, PJ's will be back home by Xmas.

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Maybe the US goverment can save the American boat building industry by following the lead of the Russian Tsar Peter the Great. He is credited with dragging Russia out of medieval times by, amoungst other things, imposing a tax on beards.

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PJ making a rational decision to get out of a banana land filled with corrupt bureaucrats and thieving pols. Going to a politically stable location with a highly productive and well trained blue collar workforce.

 

nearly every single US medium sized manufacturer would do the same if they could.

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Built in early 80's by PJ the Pedrick designed Maxi Nirvana was one of my favourites....the very sexy cruising fit-out inc bath and washer coming out for racing was pretty revolutionary for its time.

 

There were not too many places and races around the planet she missed and getting there on her own keel.

post-108919-0-99026400-1441447536_thumb.jpg

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Time for someone to start making really nice aluminum rowing skiffs...

I went for a row once in an alu single. Skin so thin that it got dented when you looked at it.

Pretty sure there's a thread floating around here about this very subject.

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My how Sturgeon Bay has changed since my youth! The PJ yard used to be SE of the old bridge. I spent a lot of time there and I remember some things like yesterday:

Pulling into a parking spot and plugging in the block heater.

Falling in love with the first PJ43 imported from Nautor. The butternut interior trimmed in teak was to die for.

The day Fredrika stopped traffic on it while sunbathing nude on the foredeck of Namis. Biggest traffic jam in the town's history.

A drunken celebration at BJ's the night Nixon resigned.

A ride on Hagar.

When Kialoa III launched and Kilroy's wife had a huge rock fly off her finger at the christening. Right into the slip in October.

Watching them pour the 35,000 pounds of lead for the keel of one of the first mega yachts (Falcon?) One continuous pour over 24 hours. The turnbuckle for the cap shroud on her was bigger than my leg.

 

I sailed lots of fantastic miles on PJ's finest:

Several Scaramouches

Aura

Bay Bee

Dora IV (Tenacious)

Charisma

Bumblebee

Kialoa III

Built by craftsmen for owners far more involved with the process than today's. They steered their own boats with crews of their friends that did it for fun instead of a paycheck. Back then everyone partied together and the parties were legendary. Oh to be 21 again..........

 

Nice post, thanks for that...

 

It's a changed world now, for sure... I doubt PJ has built a boat in the last 15 years that is not proudly flying the flag of the Cayman Islands, or some other offshore registry...

 

Hard to imagine today, there was a time when boats made the trek out to the lakes for the Chicago-Mac race from the East coast on their own bottoms...

 

40 years later, this grafitti still remains just past Lock 17 at Little Falls on the Erie Canal. I just snapped this last month, TENACIOUS and KAHILI II were both built in Sturgeon Bay, I believe?

 

 

lock17grafitti_zpsvizqwuhd.jpg

 

 

 

Of all the names on that rock wall, however, RUNNING TIDE evokes the best memory for me, I've always thought she was the most beautiful racing yacht I've ever seen...

 

 

Sparkman-and-Stephens-designed-sailing-y

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I do not think they will get into Feadship alliance, but Vitters (who bought Greenmarine, a composite builder in the UK) works together now with Oceanco.

If Palmer works with both of them, it makes sense. They only will need an office.

No way would Feadship dilute their brand.

 

 

Too late for that, they diluted their brand when they agreed to build this thing for Steve Jobs...

 

;-)

 

 

barco-venus-steve-jobs.jpg

 

 

Prior to VENUS, I always thought GALLANT LADY - the 8th and final Feadship built for the late Jim Moran - was the ugliest boat they ever built... Whatever designer signed off on those vertical windows should just be shot ;-) (Gotta give Moran some credit, however, at least he's flying the Stars & Stripes on her)

 

 

Yacht%20GALLANT%20LADY%20-%202_130.jpg?i

 

 

WTF was Moran thinking? Had he just seen one of these 35' Silvertons, and told the designer "Yeah, give me a 168-foot version of THAT..." ???

 

 

2002-silverton-43-motor-yacht-power-boat

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ate you can use this state by state corp map for your next road trip....I would start and possibly even stay with Florida.

That map is rather out of date. General Mills acquired Pillsbury 14 years ago

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One issue i amazed not to have been already raised is perceived value, USA is hardly known for first class brands. Well outside of McDonalds & Microsoft.

If they qualify as first class brands, the U.S. is more fucked than we realise.

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ate you can use this state by state corp map for your next road trip....I would start and possibly even stay with Florida.

That map is rather out of date. General Mills acquired Pillsbury 14 years ago
Not so as it is a "brand" map and ate's post referred to "brands".

 

Furthermore to be precise, Pillsbury was owned by Diageo, and while Pillsbury the corporation and some brands of the same name were aquired by General Mills from Diageo, Pillsbury the "brand" is still alive and well today.

 

General Mills the "Pillsbury brand" owner is a corporate, not a "brand name". Both companies had Minneapolis as the same historical base in the state of Minnesota.

 

I have only ever been wrong once and that was when I thought I was wrong.

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"Of all the names on that rock wall, however, RUNNING TIDE evokes the best memory for me, I've always thought she was the most beautiful racing yacht I've ever seen..."




Sparkman-and-Stephens-designed-sailing-y



Running Tide is a legend - and a beautiful one at that! Ironically, her hull and deck were built in the Netherlands in 1969 - the very country Palmer Johnson is moving to! :o


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ate you can use this state by state corp map for your next road trip....I would start and possibly even stay with Florida.

Cheers Jack, that backs up what i was saying quite well and pretty with the logos. Now where is a Longines or Hardon Karmen amongst those?

 

I assume you mean Harman Kardon, which at one point had a big presence in lovely Van Nuys and is now based in Connecticut?

 

Corporate Headquarters

Harman International

400 Atlantic Street

Stamford, CT 06901, USA

+1.203.328.3500

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Where do I fit into this big picture?

 

Certainly the world needs good yacht designers.

 

I wonder who makes a really, really good buggy whip these days. I wonder if there is that guy if he does make a living making his buggy whips.

http://www.hansenwheel.com/store/buggy-whip-1370.html?gclid=CjwKEAjwpaqvBRCxzIGoxs6v2TkSJADel-MIbvswg4KEoE07BfhJuZrnQ0FjEjpPFNmi8ioJUOMTYxoCQQzw_wcB

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My how Sturgeon Bay has changed since my youth! The PJ yard used to be SE of the old bridge. I spent a lot of time there and I remember some things like yesterday:

Pulling into a parking spot and plugging in the block heater.

Falling in love with the first PJ43 imported from Nautor. The butternut interior trimmed in teak was to die for.

The day Fredrika stopped traffic on it while sunbathing nude on the foredeck of Namis. Biggest traffic jam in the town's history.

A drunken celebration at BJ's the night Nixon resigned.

A ride on Hagar.

When Kialoa III launched and Kilroy's wife had a huge rock fly off her finger at the christening. Right into the slip in October.

Watching them pour the 35,000 pounds of lead for the keel of one of the first mega yachts (Falcon?) One continuous pour over 24 hours. The turnbuckle for the cap shroud on her was bigger than my leg.

 

I sailed lots of fantastic miles on PJ's finest:

Several Scaramouches

Aura

Bay Bee

Dora IV (Tenacious)

Charisma

Bumblebee

Kialoa III

Built by craftsmen for owners far more involved with the process than today's. They steered their own boats with crews of their friends that did it for fun instead of a paycheck. Back then everyone partied together and the parties were legendary. Oh to be 21 again..........

 

Nice post, thanks for that...

 

It's a changed world now, for sure... I doubt PJ has built a boat in the last 15 years that is not proudly flying the flag of the Cayman Islands, or some other offshore registry...

 

Hard to imagine today, there was a time when boats made the trek out to the lakes for the Chicago-Mac race from the East coast on their own bottoms...

 

40 years later, this grafitti still remains just past Lock 17 at Little Falls on the Erie Canal. I just snapped this last month, TENACIOUS and KAHILI II were both built in Sturgeon Bay, I believe?

 

 

lock17grafitti_zpsvizqwuhd.jpg

 

 

 

Of all the names on that rock wall, however, RUNNING TIDE evokes the best memory for me, I've always thought she was the most beautiful racing yacht I've ever seen...

 

 

Sparkman-and-Stephens-designed-sailing-y

 

I did that trip both ways and also completed a circumnavigation of the eastern US all on PJ built yachts.

 

Fresh out of high school, we left Chicago on Dora IV (PJ / S&S 61 aka Tenacious, now War Baby) via the Chicago river. 17 days later we hit New Orleans. Then to Clearwater and the founding of IBNA. The SORC against the likes of Sassy (C&C 61), Scaramouche, Charisma, Bay Bea, Aura, Yankee Girl, Running TIde, Equation, La Forza and more. Tide was a near sister and we had great racing. Then up to Annapolis for a pre Bermuda refit. From the Chesapeake we went up to Greenwich for the start of the Onion Patch series, Newport to Bermuda and straight up the Hudson to Albany and into the Erie Canal. Arrived in Detroit a few days before the Bayview Mac and then back to Chicago to complete the circle. The events in my earlier post were later that summer.

 

Unquestionably, the formative year of my life. Totally kept me from ever holding a real job outside playing with boats.

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ate you can use this state by state corp map for your next road trip....I would start and possibly even stay with Florida.

Forgot MauiWowee/KauaiElectric

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ate you can use this state by state corp map for your next road trip....I would start and possibly even stay with Florida.

Cheers Jack, that backs up what i was saying quite well and pretty with the logos. Now where is a Longines or Hardon Karmen amongst those?

I assume you mean Harman Kardon, which at one point had a big presence in lovely Van Nuys and is now based in Connecticut?

 

Corporate Headquarters

Harman International

400 Atlantic Street

Stamford, CT 06901, USA

+1.203.328.3500

 

Owen I'm doing ate's homework while he goes sailing and I feel amply qualified to do so having majored in "Iconic US Brands That Were Nearly Lost or Fucked Up".

 

Now ate can be forgiven for thinking Harman Kardon the brand name is European as it sits beside Bang & Olufsen (auto audio not electronics) as one of around twenty brands owned by Harmon International Industries....which by the way Owen is not a brand but a corporation and which only came into being in 1978.

 

Winding backwards a Sidney Harman and Harmon Kardon started their audio company Harmon Kardon in 1953 in New York. Shortly afterwards Harmon bought Kardon out. Harmon was a supporter of Jimmy Carter and when becoming President, he appointed Harman to be the Undersecretary of Commerce 1976. US law required appointees to have no direct business interests so Harman sold out Harman Kardon to Beatrice Foods, which is now the Nebraskan company ConAgra Foods. Beatrice owned many brands including the Morgan Yachts but sold off many brands including Harmon Kardon brand to the Japenese company Shin Shirasuna.

 

So Owen at this point Harmon Kardon is owned by the same crowd who bombed Pearl Harbour...how patriotic is that, not to mention a very ordinary business decision of Beatrice. Therefore strictly speaking we should not be having this conversation Owen.

 

Anyway with Jimmy out the door Harmon kicked off Harmon International Industries in 1978 and bought back the brand Harmon Kardon from the Japanese in 1985. Sidney Harmon retired in 2007 aged 88 and died in 2011, which would indicate a guy pretty passionate about the company he started over 60 years ago and at one stage he and America had well and truly lost.

 

So what do you have to say Owen? .....I can't hear anything... That's all you got Owen? Two wrong feet in fucking ugly shoes.

 

Now that I have morphed into Erin Brockovich I will go and see what sex is like the other way up.

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ate you can use this state by state corp map for your next road trip....I would start and possibly even stay with Florida.

Forgot MauiWowee/KauaiElectric

Bruno ....can I call you Bruno? You are very lucky....see I don't suffer fools ...I enjoy every minute of them.

 

ate is on a "road trip", and even though I doubt he will get out of Florida or that 107th Hooters Restaurant he is holed up in ...we have to imagine he will stand true to his objective of visting State by State..... and sampling Brand by Brand.

 

Now how in the fuck do you expect ate to drive to Hawaii Bruno???

 

Are you suggesting he call up Palmer Johnson and order one of these little beauties????

 

PS you must be very old and not buying green bananas any more...MauiWowee was replaced by Hydroponic-Bikee-Wack many moons ago as the weed of choice amoungst Bowman/ Legends.

post-108919-0-24880800-1441503149_thumb.jpg

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ate you can use this state by state corp map for your next road trip....I would start and possibly even stay with Florida.

Cheers Jack, that backs up what i was saying quite well and pretty with the logos. Now where is a Longines or Hardon Karmen amongst those?

I assume you mean Harman Kardon, which at one point had a big presence in lovely Van Nuys and is now based in Connecticut?

 

Corporate Headquarters

Harman International

400 Atlantic Street

Stamford, CT 06901, USA

+1.203.328.3500

 

Owen I'm doing ate's homework while he goes sailing and I feel amply qualified to do so having majored in "Iconic US Brands That Were Nearly Lost or Fucked Up".

 

Now ate can be forgiven for thinking Harman Kardon the brand name is European as it sits beside Bang & Olufsen (auto audio not electronics) as one of around twenty brands owned by Harmon International Industries....which by the way Owen is not a brand but a corporation and which only came into being in 1978.

 

Winding backwards a Sidney Harman and Harmon Kardon started their audio company Harmon Kardon in 1953 in New York. Shortly afterwards Harmon bought Kardon out. Harmon was a supporter of Jimmy Carter and when becoming President, he appointed Harman to be the Undersecretary of Commerce 1976. US law required appointees to have no direct business interests so Harman sold out Harman Kardon to Beatrice Foods, which is now the Nebraskan company ConAgra Foods. Beatrice owned many brands including the Morgan Yachts but sold off many brands including Harmon Kardon brand to the Japenese company Shin Shirasuna.

 

So Owen at this point Harmon Kardon is owned by the same crowd who bombed Pearl Harbour...how patriotic is that, not to mention a very ordinary business decision of Beatrice. Therefore strictly speaking we should not be having this conversation Owen.

 

Anyway with Jimmy out the door Harmon kicked off Harmon International Industries in 1978 and bought back the brand Harmon Kardon from the Japanese in 1985. Sidney Harmon retired in 2007 aged 88 and died in 2011, which would indicate a guy pretty passionate about the company he started over 60 years ago and at one stage he and America had well and truly lost.

 

So what do you have to say Owen? .....I can't hear anything... That's all you got Owen? Two wrong feet in fucking ugly shoes.

 

Now that I have morphed into Erin Brockovich I will go and see what sex is like the other way up.

Actually I overlooked the fact that ate did not make a mistake in the spelling of Harmon Kardon. He simply got confused by the fact he is always calling his skipper a Carmen the polite abbreviation of Cunt where he hails from......anyway the call "Hardon Karmen" is often heard to ring out across the water from ate and his mates after the bottom mark rounding.

 

Back to normal programming.

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Boatbuilders here in Tas have been bought out just to get access to skilled aluminium fabricators and welders.

Yeah, but no one uses Aluminium any more.

 

Aluminum, that's another story. P-J knows Aluminum.

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The Jongert plant is located on the IJsselmeer and is very suitable to launch big boats. It is on the same lake as where De Vries (Makkum) has his XL yard for boats over 100metres.

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Old brands for old folks, where's my zimmer frame?

If your eye sight shot States that are hard to make out on the map are Connecticut is General Electric, New Jersey is Campbell's, New Hampshire is Timberland, Vermont is Ben & Jerry's, Rhode Island is Hasbro, Delaware is DuPont, and for you Hawaii is Hawaiian Airlines.

 

California is the controversial one where Apple comes out on top of Facebook and Google. Also Microsoft up in Washington State. Probably need a couple of maps so not too miss capturing some of the big brands.

 

Interestingly a map based on companies and their HQ measured by revenue (not to be confused with company size or capitalised value), the high tech companies out West would get the boot and an old fashioned oiler like Chevron in California and the bricks and mortar retailer Costco in Washington would feature.

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Whether you realise it or not you are making the case regarding domestic added value content, something the old agricultural brands scored 100% on. Any Kauai Electric or Puna Butter was all grown locally, as was the sugar etc. not something most of the brands on your map can boast of. And not something PJ will be known for in the future. Offshoring and outsourcing have reduced the spread of human and financial benefit, thats a fact jack.

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Yes Bruno I agree...sandstone and knowing how to make a grinding wheel was once valuable in the Midwest....except I think most grain is now genetically engineered to grow amoungst rocks so it can be fed to chickens that are the now the size of a small child.

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When I went on my own, P-J built the first 2 boats of my designs.

Still going strong.

Side story.

Pat Haggerty had a boat serviced or build there. When he received the bill he asked how much more it would cost to buy the yard? They said so much. He bought the facility.

What about Trinity?

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I suspect the Dutch gave Palmer good incentives to take over the facilities. The proud dutch maritime tradition is not forgotten by it's citizens like it has in other places.

 

Hopefully there will be a clever, well financed and good intentioned individual(s) that picks up that valuable labor pool there in Sturgeons Bay and makes a run for new business.

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