• Announcements

    • Zapata

      Abbreviated rules   07/28/2017

      Underdawg did an excellent job of explaining the rules.  Here's the simplified version: Don't insinuate Pedo.  Warning and or timeout for a first offense.  PermaFlick for any subsequent offenses Don't out members.  See above for penalties.  Caveat:  if you have ever used your own real name or personal information here on the forums since, like, ever - it doesn't count and you are fair game. If you see spam posts, report it to the mods.  We do not hang out in every thread 24/7 If you see any of the above, report it to the mods by hitting the Report button in the offending post.   We do not take action for foul language, off-subject content, or abusive behavior unless it escalates to persistent stalking.  There may be times that we might warn someone or flick someone for something particularly egregious.  There is no standard, we will know it when we see it.  If you continually report things that do not fall into rules #1 or 2 above, you may very well get a timeout yourself for annoying the Mods with repeated whining.  Use your best judgement. Warnings, timeouts, suspensions and flicks are arbitrary and capricious.  Deal with it.  Welcome to anarchy.   If you are a newbie, there are unwritten rules to adhere to.  They will be explained to you soon enough.  
BarfBag

Wanna Play Kite Boat?!

Recommended Posts

Looking for an adventurous, sensible, practical, keen, reliable, seaworthy, innovative, creative

kiteboarder type to join me in R&D and exploring the Race to Alaska next year on a long / skinny,

enclosed kite boat.

PM me if it's you or you know a potential candidate.

Thanks

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

A light tri would be the best platform.

 

if you can spread the steering lines of the kite ( outside lines) wider than the width of the kite itself, it becomes a much more stable beast.

Meaning it would require far less steering input from the crew to hold a certain spot in the sky. Way better for long distance passages.

 

I would suggest a foil kite (non inflatable)

 

Tricky part would be deployment and retrieval.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

...It's only a matter of time and kitepower will be used for ocean passages.,perhaps foils, but I think wave-piercing design might find it's place too!.

R2Ak would be a great test, proving ground for these,,,even though you'll likely see a fair bit of upwind and variable winds,,I'd say there's huge potential! ;)

 

maxresdefault.jpglook-ma-no-sails-project-kite-boats-com.kite-boat-elgyka-design.jpgKOAS3.jpgDouarnenez-2007_kiteboatspeed.jpg

 

.....I feel like the DL of kite passage! :o:rolleyes:

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

.

 

....there's definitely some wtf factor in this effort...wonder if they've advanced things over the past 2 years? :huh: ...

 

 

 

 

...let's keep this in the kite forum so nobody else gets the idea! :lol:

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Well, at least that Multi 23 could put it's rig back in and be a real boat again.

 

...that's the post above? If so,,I'm glad to hear they didn't purpose-build!

 

 

It must be an early iteration of the http://www.kiteboatspeed.com/ effort., looks like the went further.....

 

..but strangely this one was some 5 years earlier in 2007!

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Yep, definitely a Multi 23. You can see one of it's biggest issues is (IMHO) excess dihedral. Without the mast and it's heeling moment to stabilize the platform it's rock and roll time. Just looking at it, I think the standard rig would have been faster as well.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

.

 

...strange that they were playing with the multi 23 6 years after this machine :wacko:

 

.... mannn, if they developed this project any more in the past 5 years, I'd be thinking all you need is a nice motel in Nanaimo and a couple of lunches! :o .....

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

.

...and these guys have it down to a couple of snacks :mellow: ........

....that's my style,,,a nice lay-Z-buoy in the middle,, :)

.........even nicer now if you check out sept's video on their site.

 

...actually the http://project.kiteboat.com/news/ guys have some very recent footage from this sept....looking organized and VERY relaxed on deck!!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Looking for an adventurous, sensible, practical, keen, reliable, seaworthy, innovative, creative

kiteboarder type to join me in R&D and exploring the Race to Alaska next year on a long / skinny,

enclosed kite boat.

PM me if it's you or you know a potential candidate.

Thanks

 

 

...looks like others are looking too! ;) ........

 

Kiteboat Project Kai Concepts
HX3A1638-720x480.jpg
NAVIGATE
LOG IN
SEARCH

 

ENTRY-LEVEL TEAM MEMBER
ENTRY-LEVEL TEAM MEMBER Job Description

We are hoping to add a full-time person to our kiteboat development team who has a strong background in either general fabrication (woodworking, metalworking, and composites) and/or design and engineering. The ideal candidate also has experience with or interest in how these skills are applied to ultra-lightweight marine platforms. Because we often complete projects on an aggressive schedule with a relatively short period of preparation, this position presents a unique opportunity for design and engineering to occur on the shop floor. The ideal candidate will be able to make to design changes and tight deadlines and will be equally at ease working independently and collaborating with other team members to solve problems. All full-time team members will be involved in on-water testing. This step closes the design loop and allows everyone to gain firsthand experience and perspective on the choices that were made during the build process.

Key Responsibilities
  • To assist with multiple phases of ultra-lightweight boat development, maintenance, and repair. These phases include: plug and mold construction, lamination and vacuum infusion with fiberglass and carbon fiber, vacuum bagging of laminates, grinding and sanding, secondary bonding with structural glues, and may include use of CAD programs, use of CAM machines, or kite rigging.
  • To assist during boat tests as crew on either the kiteboat, the support boat, or the shore support team.
Necessary Skills
  • An aptitude for and willingness to learn new skills.
  • Ability to adapt to design and schedule changes as needed.
Desirable Skills
  • A background in engineering, physics, marine architecture, carpentry, boat-building, or similar.
  • Familiarity with woodworking and an understanding of power tools, including their proper care and maintenance.
  • Familiarity with metalworking to a marine standard including drilling, tapping, milling, and turning aluminum and stainless steel.
  • Familiarity with composites work and lamination techniques, including work with wet lay-ups, pre-preg, and vacuum infusion.
  • Any specialization in the marine industry such as kite or sail repair, rigging, rope splicing, etc.
  • Any boating or kiting experience including racing, cruising, commercial fishing, etc.
  • Familiarity with CAD software such as Rhino, or with computer-aided machining such as using a CNC router.
  • Willingness to put in extra hours.
Compensation

Compensation will be commensurate with experience and skill set and may include benefits package. This is an entry-level position.

MG_9049-720x480.jpg

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

....I was wondering how these spider-boats do in an open seaway,,,,hadn't expected to see........this!! :o .....

KiteBoat_01.png

....of course it's all........ back to the future.... according to the original patent holders of bladder kites....

......''The first kites were tested in catamarans, small fishing boats, water skis, windsurf boards, inflatable boats, kayaks, and many other watercraft devices.'' http://www.surfertod...ignoux-brothers

Don Montague, principle of the Kiteboat project in SF comes from wayyy back,, was a rider for Gaastra in the 80's ,then head designer with Naish early in their game when he started to mess with outrigger canoes and boats. I wouldn't be surprised if he's pictured in the hobie kitefoiler above. Seems he's got his eyes on a record run to Hawaii.

.........''We made a lot of progress and realized hydrofoils were the best way to utilize the kite because of the lifting forces of the kite. It was also relatively dry and I was really tired of being cold and wet. Our first boat was a catamaran that flew on two T-foils and two J-foils. We worked on that for about three years and also built a bigger 30-foot boat.

That one had hydraulic steering and we really figured out the kite launching. Then the Marine Science Technology Foundation came along and they wanted me to work on looking at actually pulling ships with a kite.

They provided really good funding and I was able to hire eight full-time people outside of what was happening at Makani. At that time, Makani was up to 50 engineers. I broke off the Kite Boat Project from Makani and named it KAI (Kite Assist Institute).

During the last three years we’ve built a number of kite boats and have learned a lot. Now, I’m going into a new project called KAI Concepts. The goal is to go from San Francisco to Hawaii and break the sailing record with a kite boat.''

A VERY interesting backgrounder... http://www.thekitebo...teboat-project/

 

 

If these kites are too complicated and dangerous for the general sailing public, do you see kites being a part of the sail quiver of an ocean-going racing sailboat?

Yes. This is going to explode in their world. A lot of the big names in sailing are closely following what we’re doing here.

...a LONG way from the trifoiler....''On the latest boats, there’s a series of servos that the boat driver controls. Something you don’t see is that we’re actually changing the profile of the kite while we’re out there. We change it through pressure, but that’s all top secret. The way we depower and turn the kite is sometimes all done through an Android phone.''

...according to Montague....''There’s no question that a kite will be some part of a sailing around the world record attempt.'' :mellow:

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

.....ahhh,yes ^^^^^^ who can forget Jacob's Ladder! :)

...had my first concept of...''hmm, I bet you could sail a boat with one of those fibrefoil 2line kites'',,,went into a store in seattle and saw that shot! ....not long before a guy did a run on waterski's in the gorge :o

 

 

 

 

...here's a more basic approach at ocean passage...Peru to Tahiti,, 3800nm in 77days,,,~50mi/day.

 

..a beautiful french lasse!...quite the adventurer.... http://www.anne-quemere.com/?page_id=2456

 

...the boat was ~180 lbs of carbon,core,poxy

 

This odyssey fraught with pitfalls and technical problems made ​​me push my own limits and discover a little more who I am experiencing the most extreme solitude . Indeed , a week after the start, my means of communication have broken down , leaving me totally alone in this great ocean.

 

7.jpg

 

fonddiapoweb2015.jpg

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

.

...here's a more grassroots effort....at first the boat looks like a nice R2Ak type effort,,,,but then he climbs on with a conventional kite, sits down in the comfy swivel armchair,,,,,but the kite -really- is conventional,,connected to the sailor's kiteboard harness,,not the boat!!! ...looks to be doing ~6kts in 30 :wacko:

http://www.dailymoti...sport#tab_embed

...some evolution with this next effort,, and some good learning for others going down this route :mellow: ....

http://www.dailymoti...-avec-l-a_sport

 

 

.....and the kitetender guys,,,nice kit,,good filming,,,but can't make out how they do upwind....

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

..

 

...here's one to make the proa guys happy,,some good ideas there......

a20810a12167651481ec1a515f21c1ee.jpg

 

 

 

...and of course there's a whole realm of boat-kites. This thread derail has been fun,,, I can tell there's -many- more projects in the google world and beyond,, but I'll leave it here fer now.......

 

 

 

...I'll bet you could get a few totally unsuspecting riders on for a 'tube-ride' :mellow: ......

 

kitetubeact6500.jpg

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

And another one http://harryproa.com/?p=424 The video is more about the foil than the kite, but gives the general idea.

 

This is a prototype for a 12m offshore version, once all the bugs are out.

 

Couch, any more details on the proa?

...hey that's wayy cool! Though I guess it would have been better to be up on foils before going over the shoal :mellow:

...what length is that proa in the video?

My first impression is that this is the closest I've seen for using for purposes of the R2Ak, assuming there's plans available(?)

It's interesting it was easier to sail upwind than down,,perhaps a different story if you were flying a larger kite to give sufficient power for downwind :huh: What size was the kite pictured?

.....my impression is that there was a foil under the windward hull but not the main hull?

Unfortunately,,I couldn't find more details on the proa above. My search consisted of googling 'kite boat picture', then double clicking on the picture, which usually took me to the boats site,,,except for the proa. All I got was a general 'proa whoa' site ..... https://www.pinteres...sley/proa-whoa/

......I guess when it comes to the R2Ak,,there's lots of tornado,Hobie 20 hulls around,,,not a bad start., add some kites and away yer go!

...here's the thillyest result from the search......

Indulge yourself in various water sports in the blue sea of Sanya :rolleyes:

Kite Boarding As a worldly popular newly-emerged water sport, Sanya gives kite boarding a prime location. The spacious marine area and beaches at Sanya Bay and Yalong Bay are superior positions for kite boarding. There kite boarding school in Sanya today offers training courses and devices renting.

1921_6.jpg

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

...hey that's wayy cool! Though I guess it would have been better to be up on foils before going over the shoal :mellow:

Definitely!

...what length is that proa in the video?

7.5m/25' long hull 4m/13' short hull. Been using it for rig/rudder/beam/foil/general experiments for about 15 years.

My first impression is that this is the closest I've seen for using for purposes of the R2Ak, assuming there's plans available(?)

Plans for this boat (Elementarry) are available http://harryproa.com/?portfolio=elementarry-75m25but a dedicated kite boat would be lighter (El is about 110 kgs/240 lbs), plus it needs some accommodation, or at least space to store stuff. And we can build them a lot quicker now using infusion and flat panel moulds than in the strip plank era.

It's interesting it was easier to sail upwind than down,,perhaps a different story if you were flying a larger kite to give sufficient power for downwind

Definitely needs more grunt. I have kited in a Laser (top gps speed 20 knots, 2 up, no hiking, occasionally airborne, huge fun), and going downwind was easier than in the under rigged proa as there was plenty of breeze.

What size was the kite pictured?

That kite is 17.5 sqm, of which maybe 60% is actually pulling the boat. The sail rig was 22 sqm. We have a 30 sqm kite, but it is a bit unwieldy for launching on this boat, but might be ok on the 12m. I am looking for a 24 sqm, which would be about right. We are also experimenting with some schmick new kite designs.

.....my impression is that there was a foil under the windward hull but not the main hull?

Correct. Current (more logical in my view) testing has the kite flying off and lifting the small hull, with the foil under the long one. It is feasible, but not yet fully tested, to fly the whole boat with only one foil in the water. With no controls or curved foils required.

Unfortunately,,I couldn't find more details on the proa above. My search consisted of googling 'kite boat picture', then double clicking on the picture, which usually took me to the boats site,,,except for the proa. All I got was a general 'proa whoa' site ..... https://www.pinteres...sley/proa-whoa/

Ta

......I guess when it comes to the R2Ak,,there's lots of tornado,Hobie 20 hulls around,,,not a bad start., add some kites and away yer go!
Be quicker to start from scratch. Especially if you are planning on rowing or pedalling for any length of time, when low weight and minimal windage are essential. Also makes it quicker with the kites.
I was approached to design a kite boat for the R2AK, but it looks unlikely to happen as the client can't find a sponsor. Pity, as there are only a couple of grand's worth of materials and a couple of weeks work to build the boat. I was going to crew and supply the foil, kites. lines etc.
Kite boating is easy if you use a bar and harness and sit in a boat. Arguably easier than kite boarding. Where ii gets interesting is launching and retrieving big kites offshore, controlling them for more than an hour at a time, night flying, light air, safety, overpowering, etc. We have most of these sorted out, next step is some distance sailing.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

 

...hey that's wayy cool! Though I guess it would have been better to be up on foils before going over the shoal :mellow:

Definitely!

...what length is that proa in the video?

7.5m/25' long hull 4m/13' short hull. Been using it for rig/rudder/beam/foil/general experiments for about 15 years.

My first impression is that this is the closest I've seen for using for purposes of the R2Ak, assuming there's plans available(?)

Plans for this boat (Elementarry) are available http://harryproa.com/?portfolio=elementarry-75m25but a dedicated kite boat would be lighter (El is about 110 kgs/240 lbs), plus it needs some accommodation, or at least space to store stuff. And we can build them a lot quicker now using infusion and flat panel moulds than in the strip plank era.

It's interesting it was easier to sail upwind than down,,perhaps a different story if you were flying a larger kite to give sufficient power for downwind

Definitely needs more grunt. I have kited in a Laser (top gps speed 20 knots, 2 up, no hiking, occasionally airborne, huge fun), and going downwind was easier than in the under rigged proa as there was plenty of breeze.

What size was the kite pictured?

That kite is 17.5 sqm, of which maybe 60% is actually pulling the boat. The sail rig was 22 sqm. We have a 30 sqm kite, but it is a bit unwieldy for launching on this boat, but might be ok on the 12m. I am looking for a 24 sqm, which would be about right. We are also experimenting with some schmick new kite designs.

.....my impression is that there was a foil under the windward hull but not the main hull?

Correct. Current (more logical in my view) testing has the kite flying off and lifting the small hull, with the foil under the long one. It is feasible, but not yet fully tested, to fly the whole boat with only one foil in the water. With no controls or curved foils required.

Unfortunately,,I couldn't find more details on the proa above. My search consisted of googling 'kite boat picture', then double clicking on the picture, which usually took me to the boats site,,,except for the proa. All I got was a general 'proa whoa' site ..... https://www.pinteres...sley/proa-whoa/

Ta

......I guess when it comes to the R2Ak,,there's lots of tornado,Hobie 20 hulls around,,,not a bad start., add some kites and away yer go!
Be quicker to start from scratch. Especially if you are planning on rowing or pedalling for any length of time, when low weight and minimal windage are essential. Also makes it quicker with the kites.
I was approached to design a kite boat for the R2AK, but it looks unlikely to happen as the client can't find a sponsor. Pity, as there are only a couple of grand's worth of materials and a couple of weeks work to build the boat. I was going to crew and supply the foil, kites. lines etc.
Kite boating is easy if you use a bar and harness and sit in a boat. Arguably easier than kite boarding. Where ii gets interesting is launching and retrieving big kites offshore, controlling them for more than an hour at a time, night flying, light air, safety, overpowering, etc. We have most of these sorted out, next step is some distance sailing.

 

 

 

 

Interesting stuff HP,,,I've long daydreamed details of kiteboating,, not necessarily in the Proa vein (nttawwt :)),,

,, but it's great to hear your jockey's feedback to some of my impressions.

 

 

''I have kited in a Laser (top gps speed 20 knots, 2 up, no hiking, occasionally airborne, huge fun.''

My musings lean mostly towards kiting on a laser......you have any setup details or pictures of this??

...any thoughts on singlehanding?...surely there's a way

Any thoughts .ideas, theories on this...maybe I'll get on with the ultimate couch surfer :rolleyes:

 

 

not a lot of 'prior art' for ''power kite on laser sailboat'' :mellow: .....

 

solar-laser.jpg

 

http://www.boatsafe.com/nauticalknowhow/kite.htm

kite_boat.jpgfree-shipping-high-quality-3D-sail-boat-

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Hi all,

 

All kiteboat concepts are good idea's. I enjoy seeing them and thinking of how it would be to control them.

 

The most easy accessible one looks like the kitetender400. As I was originally a sailor (and spent tests with a laser, flying dutchman and so on) the kitetender has been developed totally just for kitesailing.

 

Of course a more narrow hull would have been faster, but it had to be easy to control and comfortbale to be in. (hower in short waves at 20 knots of boatspeed, you really want to slow down..)

 

 

couchsurfer

Posted 18 October 2015 - 04:14 AM

......and the kitetender guys,,,nice kit,,good filming,,,but can't make out how they do upwind....

 

Upwind is quite easy with the (pivoting) centreboard. Pivoting for more reasons, like to strat from a beach to go through the breaking waves, or landing on beaches, or downwind courses in which you would not need so much lift.

 

Anybody wants to know more, please do ask.

 

And the kitetender 400 is now commercial available. vacuum sandwich grp reinforced vinylesther.

 

cheers Peter Renssen www.kitetender.nl

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

.

 

 

..hey Peter,,,nice to hear you got the kitetender to market.

 

Is the set-up designed only for two,,or does it go with one person?

 

fun to see a fleet of those,,,and a bit of upwind footage....

 

 

 

.....are you the madman in the video? :rolleyes:

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

.

 

 

..hey Peter,,,nice to hear you got the kitetender to market.

 

Is the set-up designed only for two,,or does it go with one person?

 

fun to see a fleet of those,,,and a bit of upwind footage....

 

 

 

.....are you the madman in the video? :rolleyes:

 

It is a 2 person dinghy, at higher speed (20knots boatspeed!) helming is quite precise.

 

In the first film the helsman is me, in the other you see Tom Court watching the gopro making a selfie.

 

Upwind performance is ok, sharpsailing as with a Laser, only need a race kite (upwind performance) like the North DYNO we use. Can recommand those. from 5 to 18m2 This is noot the projected area!

 

Peter, helmsman at kitetender.nl

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

As being originally a sailor, the coolest thing is the possible acceleration and quick gybing you can do with a kite.

 

A flying sail, generating so much more power caused by its speed and increasing lift therefore, adds so much more dynamics to sailing.

 

Underestimating that is a big issue. Especially if you use longer lines.

 

Halfwind sailing going from 14 knots of boatspeed to 18 knots, by smooth flying is really cool.

 

 

 

Quite a lot of guys helming have gone MOB while gybing, big fun!

 

Here a link to a video, in which explained to first change position as a helmsman and us the footstrap and one hand to hold, another to helm and steer, just following the kite in fact. The guys in the film are doing quite smoothly by the way.

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XNndXcOTUAY

 

 

cheers, Peter Renssen

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

.

...here's a more grassroots effort....at first the boat looks like a nice R2Ak type effort,,,,but then he climbs on with a conventional kite, sits down in the comfy swivel armchair,,,,,but the kite -really- is conventional,,connected to the sailor's kiteboard harness,,not the boat!!! ...looks to be doing ~6kts in 30 :wacko:

http://www.dailymoti...sport#tab_embed

...some evolution with this next effort,, and some good learning for others going down this route :mellow: ....

http://www.dailymoti...-avec-l-a_sport

 

 

.....and the kitetender guys,,,nice kit,,good filming,,,but can't make out how they do upwind....

 

 

 

 

Hi all,

 

Upwind performance is great. use a race kte like the North Dyno and you will plane upwind too. Not to sharp though.

Chickenloop is attached to the Kitetender of course.

more info? just ask, or watch the website at kitetender.nl or visit youtube channel kitetender. you will see most issues answered.

cheers Peter Renssen

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

A light tri would be the best platform.

 

if you can spread the steering lines of the kite ( outside lines) wider than the width of the kite itself, it becomes a much more stable beast.

Meaning it would require far less steering input from the crew to hold a certain spot in the sky. Way better for long distance passages.

 

I would suggest a foil kite (non inflatable)

 

Tricky part would be deployment and retrieval.

Why non-inflatable? Wouldn't the air help keep the kite from getting swamped with a relaunch? And I avoid using my inflatable on land because of the constant threat of debris on the ground ripping open the bladder, my non-inflatable traction kite is more durable, no worry about that on water.

 

I ask because I hope to try out a kite with one of my kayaks (with sponsons) sometime this fall if I can get my skill up, but I assumed that the traction kite was the wrong kite for that.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

wowww,, a no comments on this for over a year,, but aaah well, I'm still tickled by the idea of setting up a lay-z-buoy on my old laser hull,, gonna actually give it a try this winter....

Baja, late january,, putyer money where your mouth is,, or nutz where yer kitewires are!  :huh:

I'll have a laser hull,, kites,, kayak, and full camp.  Fly into Loreto,Mex (or Ventana if I have some success) ~Jan 25, bring yer wetsuit, sunscreen, and  a creative mind,,, be prepared for 20+ knots most days!  I'll be at it  hard Jan 25 to Feb 10, and again Feb24 onwards., after the GF flies off.

 

....a very VERY interesting article posted on another thread, with some discussion, transferred here for posteriority............

14 hours ago, Nongbusa said:

The best kites have a lift to drag ratio approaching six.  Sails have a lift to drag ratio of ten and up. 

Kite guru Peter Lynn gave up on kite powered boats a long time ago.

http://www.peterlynnhimself.com/Kites_For_Yachts.php

 

9 hours ago, couchsurfer said:

...from Lynn's article...''Attaching kites to conventional yachts, mono or multihull may be part of the development path but will not be the eventual solution. Sooner rather than later, boats will be purpose designed for kite power.''

 That's a fantastically interesting article,, and very topical to an upcoming effort I'm gonna be making. I haven't read the full article by any means, but I cannot see how you consider Lynn's 'giving up' on kite powered boats.   He makes it clear that there are hurdles, but in the quote I've made, he also points to solution.

  I'm gonna be heading down to Baja for a coupla months,, been wanting to mess with kites on a  Laser hull for a few years,, looks like it's time. If you never hear of me again, you'll know where I went.  :)

Thanks for the article. I'll approach this in my customary seat-of-pants fashion, but it looks likea great way to bone up on some of the technology involved.  ;)

 

8 hours ago, couchsurfer said:

After a first read of Lynn's article,,,  it's clear his terms of reference is....''conventional sailing craft in competitive events.''   ...stating that current technology, (2009)kites on conventional sailboat hulls have limitations, particularly when competing upwind with conventional sailboats.  He also states clearly that these same craft can easily outpace conventional sailboats on downwind angles.  My personal take on this is encouragement to ...go for it!  There's lots of fun to be had going downwind, and not worrying about racing head to head on a windward leeward course.   Baja is 1000km or so with daily winds often in the 20knot range :rolleyes:

    Peter concludes his very interesting article......  ''There really is now no technical impediment standing in the way of kite sailing becoming practical and mainstream,''  ....Nongbusa,,,, sounds like we read totally different articles!?  :unsure:   

 

 

2 hours ago, Grey Dawn said:

Thanks for that very interesting article, Nongbusa! It's quite bullish on the prospects for purpose-designed kiteboats as couchsurfer noted. Kite development has been rapid in the last 20 years. The problems of low L/D for upwind sailing and depowering in gusts seem to have technical mitigation paths. Lynn thinks kites are more practical for recreational boats than for commercial shipping which has funded much of the development.

Foiling kiteboards seem able to outsail high-performance foiling boats in good wind:

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

....while my head's onit,,,  good to look back at prior art in kiteboating,,, bestto learn from prior valiant efforts and mistakes,,, especially if they're others :rolleyes: ....

I hope these blokes didn't make this beautiful hull, just for this video... they seem to have gone inactive at..... www.kiteboatspeed.com

Healing force should be quite manageable.  Baseline loads attached to hull,,, but adjustable laterally.   I'll bet that helps.

The bigger problem I anticipate on a Laser hull is that one person will have to co-ordinate both kite AND steering,, something not seen in most of these efforts.  The other challenge?... I've only done a bit of kiting a few years ago,,, enough to get in trouble.  What could possibly go wrong!?  :unsure:

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Hi Couch,

    Didn't you have some serious back issues which kept you from sailing for a good while? If you didn't you probably will after trying to kite with a Laser...

     Just kidding (halfway) but good luck with your schemes. I can perhaps help you with the details of the steering and kite controls conglomerated into a central 'command seat' in the manner you see on Don's KiteFoiler. His helmseat is pretty elaborate but I think it can scale down and simplified and might be just the thing for kiting with a small skiff like the Laser. Single handing is going to be a challenge but should be somewhere on the level of a IC sailing canoe or a Foiling Moth.

     I spent a week with Don and his very able crew in their 'Monster (Kite) Garage' out in Alameda a couple of years ago and got out of their boat for an afternoon. Don is a consumate windsurfer and kiter and the intracacies of that setup were mindblowing. They had me doing concept 3d design for a 40-45 footer to attempt a foil born Hawaii passage but the opportunity to get their hands on the Hydroptere put those plans on the back burner. I haven't kept up with what they have been doing but I can tell you that they leave no stone unturned in their effort! 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
36 minutes ago, Rasputin22 said:

Hi Couch,

    Didn't you have some serious back issues which kept you from sailing for a good while? If you didn't you probably will after trying to kite with a Laser...

     Just kidding (halfway) but good luck with your schemes. I can perhaps help you with the details of the steering and kite controls conglomerated into a central 'command seat' in the manner you see on Don's KiteFoiler. His helmseat is pretty elaborate but I think it can scale down and simplified and might be just the thing for kiting with a small skiff like the Laser. Single handing is going to be a challenge but should be somewhere on the level of a IC sailing canoe or a Foiling Moth.

     I spent a week with Don and his very able crew in their 'Monster (Kite) Garage' out in Alameda a couple of years ago and got out of their boat for an afternoon. Don is a consumate windsurfer and kiter and the intracacies of that setup were mindblowing. They had me doing concept 3d design for a 40-45 footer to attempt a foil born Hawaii passage but the opportunity to get their hands on the Hydroptere put those plans on the back burner. I haven't kept up with what they have been doing but I can tell you that they leave no stone unturned in their effort! 

....oh yeh,,, Rasp,,, I remember a past convo about your time with that team,, any idea what their current status is?

'Luckily',it was my knees that removed me from work and sport I was doing... the wide-eyed mention of 'sheering force' comes up when I tried to describe 'hiking' a dinghy., same with low-kneeling,,, but I'm generally okay to move around.   I have got some of the qualifications for the challenge you describe... try singlehanded 29er with chute, in ~20 knots a few times.

I'd  certainly be interested in what you have for ideas,  I don't think I want to start with any sort of consulor command seat yet.  I'm picturing standard centerboard, rudder with a shockcord forwards, for a bit of foot control steering.    I picture the forward, 'power' kite lines basing behind the maststep,, likely on a traveller, with the power bar separated from the forelines, with a~15' lanyard lanyard attached for retrieval in the inevitable case of ...wanting to 'depower rapidly'   :rolleyes:

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 10/25/2015 at 5:02 PM, couchsurfer said:

 

 

Interesting stuff HP,,,I've long daydreamed details of kiteboating,, not necessarily in the Proa vein (nttawwt :)),,

,, but it's great to hear your jockey's feedback to some of my impressions.

 

 

''I have kited in a Laser (top gps speed 20 knots, 2 up, no hiking, occasionally airborne, huge fun.''

My musings lean mostly towards kiting on a laser......you have any setup details or pictures of this??

...any thoughts on singlehanding?...surely there's a way

Any thoughts .ideas, theories on this...maybe I'll get on with the ultimate couch surfer :rolleyes:

Just noticed I didn't reply to this.  Sorry.  We (30 kg daughter and 85 kg me) flew a 12 sq m kite on a shitbox Laser.  Attached the chicken loop to the mainsheet block but I had to lie down to fly the kite, which was uncomfortable for both of us.  Now that I am a bit better at kite flying, I would have the bar separate to the other strings, with a safety line so I did not lose it if I let it go.    We managed to tack with care (easy to get the strings wrapped around people) and gybing was a blast.  Helmsman follows the kite and the kiter flies it as aggressively back and forward as he can.  Works until they get out of kilter, when you swim, dramatically.  

Don't believe the no heeling stuff.  It only works if the lines are aligned with the centre of resistance.  This is hard to achieve on a laser.  Heeling will be either to windward or to leeward and can be abrupt and extreme enough to tip crew into the water.  

I set up a garden chair with the legs chopped off in the cockpit to allow me to single hand it, steering with my feet, but the lack of mobility/balance killed it.  If you are going to single hand it,  i suggest a rope traveller across the front of the cockpit with the chicken loop attached and lie on the cockpit floor, steering with lines attached to your feet.  More comfortable and easier to get someone else to helm.  

If you want to turbo the Laser, use double length lines.  There is more wind up high and bigger sweeps are possible.  We have also played with flying 2  Peter Lynn Arc kites on a single set of lines.  Does not give twice the power, but comes close.  

Launching is easiest from a harness, then transfer it to the boat.  Best is an auto stable kite (Arcs) but if you have lei's, then a line through the mainsheet block which attaches to the chicken loop.  lainch. then clip the line on to the loop and the crew pulls it into the mainsheet block and cleats it off.  Maybe use a horn cleat rather than the cam cleat.   Water launching is hard work as the boat blows downwind almost as fast as the kite.  Keeping it beam to the wind and putting a crew in the water slows it down, but better not to crash ;-)

Mexico should be a blast!.  Take lots of bits of string, spare pulleys and a kite repair kit.

Fwiw, the ideal kite boat is a proa.  Fly the kite off the short hull and steer from the long one, which could be on foils.  This is the only self aligning set up that works without crew movement.  The short hull flies, but unless you are silly will never capsize.  You can improve it by moving the lines along the hull to steer it.  It also gives you room to lay out and inflate your kite, although lei kites are far from ideal for boating.   Tack/gybe by shunting, same as a twin tip.  

Any questions, let me know.  

 

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Thanks man..almost 2 years for the reply,,, but it's not a day late!  Only now going to the next step with the idea.:rolleyes:

It's been all 'in my mind' so far, so your experience brings a few more details, realities to deal with....

I'm glad to see my mindflow isn't too far off the realities you describe,,, I already progressed to having the bar lines separate from the baselines,,, and have means to adjust the bar lines to accommodate my relative position, which will vary a lot, especially when water starting, depending on what direction the hull is pointing.

I had a bridle, traveler in mind like you suggest, but was thinking to replicate the CE on the laser,, probably halfway between the mainsheet bale and the mast step.  Simplicity is the key though, so perhaps the thoughts on line length variation dictate the baseline position closer to your suggestion.

..your comments of balance are useful,,, it's easy to visualize being nicely settled on a tack, and reasonably stable in balance, but I'm sure the reality will be far from it, as you suggest., and steering will be a bone, at the best of times.  It might be hoping too much to think I can steer as needed via a shockcord down the cockpit,, and balance otherwise,,, perhaps the above 2 items will have me seated in the footwell sooner than I thought.

I expect my launches in mexico will be on the water, there's rarely an inch where there aren't lethal sharps on land there, where cactus meet the sea!  :unsure:     I'll add something of a sea anchor to my kit, might make a difference for the launching.

With efforts like the kite tender showing the way, I don't think I need be too despondent of the possibilities,, but it's sounding like I'll need to be rather innovative to get kiting and steering down to one person. ,,but I'm sure I'll have a lot of fun trying! 

 ...watch this space, or PM's in late jan... that's when I'll be at it. ;)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now