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SloopJonB

Shoddy Workmanship Anarchy

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Ok here's a recent one. I just had a new rig built for my boat to replace the old in-mast furling rig that didn't work (I also had to do a deck recore under the mast step). I have the original sailplan for the boat from Pacific Seacraft, which was sent to the spar maker with instructions to build a new spar to the old specs except increase the rig height by two feet. Sparmaker says they will "check the numbers". Rig shows up with the spreaders a foot higher and 7" longer than the old rig. Cannot sheet the Genoa to close hauled without it hitting the cap shroud. Spar maker says oops, let's make them shorter - by cutting the spreaders with a hacksaw. Uh, no. I just paid you much $$$ for a new rig, you can make me a new set of spreaders please, since the length was changed from the plans without asking me.

 

This is playing out as I type so I'll see what they do before I name names. But businesses these days should know that social media is very powerful, and this is really a very easy and very inexpensive fix for them.

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It's quite simple really - religious beliefs are personal and most people don't want to hear about yours.

 

Sort of like your sex life.

 

I don't think Shu was trying to explain or expound his religious beliefs, he was just agreeing with the statement that when doing business with people who start out by telling you about how holy they are, mind your wallet.

 

FB- Doug

 

Yes Doug, that was my intent. I thought Sloop's statement was general though, not directed at my statement.

 

Exactly

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Ok here's a recent one. I just had a new rig built for my boat to replace the old in-mast furling rig that didn't work (I also had to do a deck recore under the mast step). I have the original sailplan for the boat from Pacific Seacraft, which was sent to the spar maker with instructions to build a new spar to the old specs except increase the rig height by two feet. Sparmaker says they will "check the numbers". Rig shows up with the spreaders a foot higher and 7" longer than the old rig. Cannot sheet the Genoa to close hauled without it hitting the cap shroud. Spar maker says oops, let's make them shorter - by cutting the spreaders with a hacksaw. Uh, no. I just paid you much $$$ for a new rig, you can make me a new set of spreaders please, since the length was changed from the plans without asking me.

 

This is playing out as I type so I'll see what they do before I name names. But businesses these days should know that social media is very powerful, and this is really a very easy and very inexpensive fix for them.

 

So, if the sparmaker had followed your instructions and the mast fell down, would you take the responsibility?

 

But what's the big deal about hacksawing the spreaders? Why is that an issue? You want them shorter - that seems as good a way of doing it as any - unless there's some fancy construction going on ...

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Ok here's a recent one. I just had a new rig built for my boat to replace the old in-mast furling rig that didn't work (I also had to do a deck recore under the mast step). I have the original sailplan for the boat from Pacific Seacraft, which was sent to the spar maker with instructions to build a new spar to the old specs except increase the rig height by two feet. Sparmaker says they will "check the numbers". Rig shows up with the spreaders a foot higher and 7" longer than the old rig. Cannot sheet the Genoa to close hauled without it hitting the cap shroud. Spar maker says oops, let's make them shorter - by cutting the spreaders with a hacksaw. Uh, no. I just paid you much $$$ for a new rig, you can make me a new set of spreaders please, since the length was changed from the plans without asking me.

 

This is playing out as I type so I'll see what they do before I name names. But businesses these days should know that social media is very powerful, and this is really a very easy and very inexpensive fix for them.

 

So, if the sparmaker had followed your instructions and the mast fell down, would you take the responsibility?

 

But what's the big deal about hacksawing the spreaders? Why is that an issue? You want them shorter - that seems as good a way of doing it as any - unless there's some fancy construction going on ...

 

 

Yeah, she'll be right, mate... The Aussie way.

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Ok here's a recent one. I just had a new rig built for my boat to replace the old in-mast furling rig that didn't work (I also had to do a deck recore under the mast step). I have the original sailplan for the boat from Pacific Seacraft, which was sent to the spar maker with instructions to build a new spar to the old specs except increase the rig height by two feet. Sparmaker says they will "check the numbers". Rig shows up with the spreaders a foot higher and 7" longer than the old rig. Cannot sheet the Genoa to close hauled without it hitting the cap shroud. Spar maker says oops, let's make them shorter - by cutting the spreaders with a hacksaw. Uh, no. I just paid you much $$$ for a new rig, you can make me a new set of spreaders please, since the length was changed from the plans without asking me.

 

This is playing out as I type so I'll see what they do before I name names. But businesses these days should know that social media is very powerful, and this is really a very easy and very inexpensive fix for them.

 

So, if the sparmaker had followed your instructions and the mast fell down, would you take the responsibility?

 

But what's the big deal about hacksawing the spreaders? Why is that an issue? You want them shorter - that seems as good a way of doing it as any - unless there's some fancy construction going on ...

 

 

Yeah, she'll be right, mate... The Aussie way.

 

You've lost me. Seriously, what's the issue? I ask because I've built a lot of masts (up to 100') and many of the spreaders would have been cut to length with a hacksaw! Please enlighten me!

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If they are alloy spreaders, they were probably cut with a hacksaw at the shop in the first place. Carbon would be a different story, but I can't see a carbon rig on Brodie's old cruiser

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..... Spar maker says oops, let's make them shorter - by cutting the spreaders with a hacksaw. Uh, no. I just paid you much $$$ for a new rig, you can make me a new set of spreaders please, since the length was changed from the plans without asking me.

 

This is playing out as I type so I'll see what they do before I name names. But businesses these days should know that social media is very powerful, and this is really a very easy and very inexpensive fix for them.

 

There's more to this story, surely.

 

Surely you don't BOTH have your heads that far up your ass because of this one issue of how to cut a spreader.

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..... Spar maker says oops, let's make them shorter - by cutting the spreaders with a hacksaw. Uh, no. I just paid you much $$$ for a new rig, you can make me a new set of spreaders please, since the length was changed from the plans without asking me.

 

This is playing out as I type so I'll see what they do before I name names. But businesses these days should know that social media is very powerful, and this is really a very easy and very inexpensive fix for them.

 

There's more to this story, surely.

 

Surely you don't BOTH have your heads that far up your ass because of this one issue of how to cut a spreader.

 

I think he may have jumped the gun a bit no??

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Brodie is pretty smart - lets hear what she has to say.

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Do you think it's possible that the sparmaker had someone like, you know, a designer figure how long the spreaders should be and where they should be placed?

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Hehe, it's pretty entertaining to read everyone's responses. Mostly I needed a forum to vent a little as this has been a very long project and I really want to just go sailing now that the end is in sight. I knew I'd get some interesting answers and maybe some good ideas as well.

 

I fully understand the implications of changing spreader length and height - anything done to increase the angle that the cap shroud makes relative to the mast decreases the compression load on the mast, which is good, up to the point where the spreaders are so long that they interfere with the sheeting angle of the headsail. Which is what happened in this case. (I am trained as a yacht designer BTW. Certainly don't have the range and depth of knowledge that Bob has, but fair to say I know more than the average bear). Pacific Seacraft doesn't under-engineer their boats so even without rechecking the numbers (which I did), I was pretty sure the proportions of the rig as designed were just fine.

 

The "cut" that needs to be made is not simple. It must follow the curvature of the mast wall and also retain the proper upwards angle of the spreader. Also, the spar and spreaders are powder coated, and my concern with a home made repair was that it would compromise the powder coat. The mast and boom look gorgeous and I would like them to stay that way as long as possible.

 

Anyway, the sparmaker is going to recut the existing spreaders and re powder coat them at the factory. I'll have a little down time while that happens but I'm happy.

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Hehe, it's pretty entertaining to read everyone's responses. Mostly I needed a forum to vent a little as this has been a very long project and I really want to just go sailing now that the end is in sight. I knew I'd get some interesting answers and maybe some good ideas as well.

 

I fully understand the implications of changing spreader length and height - anything done to increase the angle that the cap shroud makes relative to the mast decreases the compression load on the mast, which is good, up to the point where the spreaders are so long that they interfere with the sheeting angle of the headsail. Which is what happened in this case. (I am trained as a yacht designer BTW. Certainly don't have the range and depth of knowledge that Bob has, but fair to say I know more than the average bear). Pacific Seacraft doesn't under-engineer their boats so even without rechecking the numbers (which I did), I was pretty sure the proportions of the rig as designed were just fine.

 

The "cut" that needs to be made is not simple. It must follow the curvature of the mast wall and also retain the proper upwards angle of the spreader. Also, the spar and spreaders are powder coated, and my concern with a home made repair was that it would compromise the powder coat. The mast and boom look gorgeous and I would like them to stay that way as long as possible.

 

Anyway, the sparmaker is going to recut the existing spreaders and re powder coat them at the factory. I'll have a little down time while that happens but I'm happy.

Why the fuck would you shorten the spreaders at the inboard end? And if you are trained as a yacht designer, why were you surprised that the sparmaker shifted and lengthened the spreaders to maintain the safety angle? If you know what you are talking about, that must have been foreseeable, and if you didn't want that outcome, you should have expressly told the sparmaker your wishes - as well as the fact that you would take full responsibility for any consequences of reducing the safety angle.

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people that buy a second hand fibreglass boat and its the plug that has been glassed over

seen that in yachts and powerboats

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tn_gallery_10600_1158_22711.jpg

Bruno - that won't expand and my eyes are too old to make it out - what is it?

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people that buy a second hand fibreglass boat and its the plug that has been glassed over

seen that in yachts and powerboats

 

Not necessarily a bad thing. I've seen some plugs that were gorgeous WEST built hulls, built with the intention of them being finished out once the mould was pulled.

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tn_gallery_10600_1158_22711.jpg

Bruno - that won't expand and my eyes are too old to make it out - what is it?

 

 

Sorry I am not very good at this internet thing

That is the inlet and outlet plumbing for marine head in trimaran, through hulls are 2'+ above the head in the wingdeck. Green hose is the inlet, though I have yet to figure how that worked that far above the waterline. Obviously I have much to learn.

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Thought you might be amused to see the continuing adventures of the OP.

 

The structural coffee cup after restoration and some pics of what it was holding up. It would appear that a P.O. let the bilge water get away from them at some point - that is, or rather was, 3/4" mahogany marine plywood.

 

I'm guessing the batteries died at some point when it was swinging on the mooring and the rain filled the bilge up - the floorboards in other areas, even beside the bilge sump, were not rotted like that.

 

post-95343-0-51183600-1446310210_thumb.jpgpost-95343-0-91599900-1446310229_thumb.jpgpost-95343-0-41686200-1446310240_thumb.jpgpost-95343-0-72667800-1446310313_thumb.jpg

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Sloop

 

I have never seen the coach sole done in slates before...this intrigues me.

 

Do you have any more pics? What are your thoughts on this idea?

 

Gate

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Gate, are you referring to the slatted "grating" at the foot of the companionway? If so, they work well as a cheaper & easier substitute for a proper grating. They allow drips from the companionway, feet etc. to drop through to the "bin" in the liner beneath and they lift out easily for cleaning. Pretty good idea but they don't look as good as real gratings IMO.

 

If you are contemplating adding them to your boat I would want the space beneath to be fairly well separated from the bilge pump - some fairly big pieces of crud can get through them. In my case the "bin" only has a small drain hole through to the sump - just enough to prevent the water being trapped but small enough to prevent anything of any size from getting through to the pickup.

 

The slats used to be used sometimes for the complete cabin sole in wood boats to promote ventilation of the bilge spaces - I imagine that's where Hunter got the idea.

 

I have a piece of proper grating made from some sort of tropical hardwood that I plan to substitute in that spot but I'll be leaving the slatted pieces in the head.

 

No more pics right now but I'll take the camera next time I'm at the boat.

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Sloop,

I'm not convinced that that was marine plywood. It seems the glue completely dissolved. I've never seen such perfect delamination before. Since you say the other floorboards were not in a similar condition, I suggest the PO got some high-grade interior plywood to replace the previous floorboard.

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Neither have I but it's that fake teak & holly, all mahogany (except the top ply of course), 3/4", 9 ply and zero voids - I can't imagine what else it could be. All the sections are the same material - factory original.

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Gate, are you referring to the slatted "grating" at the foot of the companionway? If so, they work well as a cheaper & easier substitute for a proper grating. They allow drips from the companionway, feet etc. to drop through to the "bin" in the liner beneath and they lift out easily for cleaning. Pretty good idea but they don't look as good as real gratings IMO.

 

If you are contemplating adding them to your boat I would want the space beneath to be fairly well separated from the bilge pump - some fairly big pieces of crud can get through them. In my case the "bin" only has a small drain hole through to the sump - just enough to prevent the water being trapped but small enough to prevent anything of any size from getting through to the pickup.

 

The slats used to be used sometimes for the complete cabin sole in wood boats to promote ventilation of the bilge spaces - I imagine that's where Hunter got the idea.

 

I have a piece of proper grating made from some sort of tropical hardwood that I plan to substitute in that spot but I'll be leaving the slatted pieces in the head.

 

No more pics right now but I'll take the camera next time I'm at the boat.

We have a grate at the foot of the companionway, a piece of heavy-duty shade cloth is attached to the underside with velcro.Stops the crud from getting into the bilge and simple to remove and clean.

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Good idea!

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Gate, as you requested, here are some more pics of the slats.

 

post-95343-0-71851100-1446412549_thumb.jpgpost-95343-0-39583600-1446412598_thumb.jpgpost-95343-0-06745800-1446412706_thumb.jpg

 

As you can see, the PO's varnish work was less than craftsmanlike - I'm probably going to have to start with 40 grit to smooth out the lumps!

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Here's the "bin" in the liner under them - pretty decent design idea IMO.

 

post-95343-0-71686300-1446413027_thumb.jpg

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Hello All, New to SA. Bought a 71 Morgan 35 centerboard last July. Had a holding tank connection with a 1 1/2 inch to 1 inch hose, only they used 1 1/2 inch to 3/4 inch reducer and clamped hose clamps down and ripped the hose. Had been leaking for a long time. Sweet smell in the interior. Vent hose, 3/4 inch, was squeezed through a 1 1/2 inch hole with a 1 1/2 inch hose in it as well, Completely blocked off, was holding water above the crimp! Where the vent hose exited the hull was a straight connector where a 90 degree shoulda been, no problem, just bend the vent hose 90 degrees! No sweat! Had a mud dabber nest in it. Twisted wires with no tape, connectors or whatever, scattered around. I won't bore you with all the other weird things I found. You guys know. Just keep fixing 'em as I find 'em. Kevin

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Where's the requisite noob offering?

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Not sure what to offer, haven't got much. I'm thinking the coffee cup that started this thread is the winner. Although the epoxy over the keel boats is a close second. kev

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Where's the requisite noob offering?

Something like maybe boobs?

 

No feathered tits either. That has been done ad nauseum.

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Not sure what to offer, haven't got much. I'm thinking the coffee cup that started this thread is the winner. Although the epoxy over the keel boats is a close second. kev

 

I apologize for these guys beating around the bush and not offering you a proper welcome.

 

Now fuck off and show us your wife or girlfriend's tits.

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Not sure what to offer, haven't got much. I'm thinking the coffee cup that started this thread is the winner. Although the epoxy over the keel boats is a close second. kev

 

I apologize for these guys beating around the bush and not offering you a proper welcome.

 

Now fuck off and show us your wife or and girlfriends' tits.

 

 

Fixed.

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I misread "turnkey" as "turkey" and thought that it was a refreshing bit of honesty from a seller.

 

Alas.

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So if I call with a lowball offer he WILL respond?

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PO's aren't the only fuckwits....

 

I'm not in SA just now, I'm somewhere else.... and have not long since completed a long and not very cheap overhaul at a well regarded yard.

Interior pretty well totally stripped, keel off, lots of interesting stuff.

 

FW tanks out... and then refited by the yard.

 

Now there is a port tank and a starboard tank under the saloon settees and a 20 litre 'sump' in the bilge. Port tank drains into starboard side of sump and VV... suction is on sump.

All sorted... cabin sole on etc etc etc... so I fill the tanks and turn on the pump... nada... bugger all in fact.

Someone in their infinite wisdom had connected the port tank directly to the starboard one missing the sump on the way through....

The inlet spigots on the sump??? Connected to each other to form an endless loop...........

 

Oh and when they refited the Newmar earth plate they put mega goop on all four bolts just to ensure there was absolutely no electrical connectivity....... spotted that as it was being done.....

 

Sob....

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No personal experience with this one, I found it but just look at it - supposedly designed & built to be able to pressure flush the salt side of the boats cooling system. Brass garden fittings, PVC or ABS fittings, 4 clamps on one side and none on the other.

 

What could go wrong?

 

 

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Apart from materials used and location below waterline a user friendly fresh water flush setup is a good idea for engines that only run intermitantly and when at rest most of the damage is happening.

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How about a Chinese angle grinder forgotten and glassed into a fresh water tank?

The water on one of the hospitality/mark boats never tasted quite right....

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Your keel bolts look a little undernourished.

 

I was really hoping those were strut bolts.

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That barely qualifies for this thread - that's closer to S.O.P. than shoddy workmanship. :D

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That barely qualifies for this thread - that's closer to S.O.P. than shoddy workmanship. :D

 

You make a good point!

Now I have to search around for some example...

 

So these photos are from my old Quarter tonner. An Eygthene one of Ron Hollands first designs.

 

After a road journey before launching we noticed that the keel stringers had pulled away from the hull at the edges, but judging the condition (and amount of crap) underneath them an the thickness of the laminate, does this qualify or is it 'Poor Design' Anarchy?

post-122046-0-53751500-1450865199_thumb.jpg

post-122046-0-46488400-1450865201_thumb.jpg

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That moves to the head of the class :o

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Your keel bolts look a little undernourished.

 

I was really hoping those were strut bolts.

 

But they match your shoes! so there is that... :=)

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so he glued carpet on the bow. ... We enjoyed her just the way she is. ... To a good home please. She deserves it.

 

Needs a slight alteration "After a succession of boneheads she deserves to go to a good home."

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That barely qualifies for this thread - that's closer to S.O.P. than shoddy workmanship. :D

 

You make a good point!

Now I have to search around for some example...

 

So these photos are from my old Quarter tonner. An Eygthene one of Ron Hollands first designs.

 

After a road journey before launching we noticed that the keel stringers had pulled away from the hull at the edges, but judging the condition (and amount of crap) underneath them an the thickness of the laminate, does this qualify or is it 'Poor Design' Anarchy?

 

 

Those lag screws are ballast, right?

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Those lag screws are ballast, right?

 

Yes, I believe they're a safety feature, when the keel falls off they mean you've got enough inherent stability to get you home :D

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Upper shroud end.

 

Those washers are what passed for a backing plate.

 

I held the pieces in front of the hole in the deck so you can't see it that well.

 

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Found this gem the other day.  This is someone's idea of a garboard drain on a C&C 35 mkIII.  Cobbled together from hardware store parts and installed using the latest in marine expertise

GetAttachmentThumbnail?id=AQMkADAwATM3ZmYAZS1jMzY1LThiMmYtMDACLTAwCgBGAAADOSzTv9Az%2BEmS31Vwb3HTQQcA2Fo2GZOz90qiQ33PcXOY0gAAAgEMAAAA2Fo2GZOz90qiQ33PcXOY0gAAAKDD%2BL0AAAABEgAQACSXMemfmFxLpm%2BUXzhQeu8%3D&X-OWA-CANARY=J1P4E7PKm0WzircT4FguliARR-CAo9QY9h0sXeP0wybHGlbn30QgB8TB16IOHl8hUPk8YFneEcE.&token=eyJ0eXAiOiJKV1QiLCJhbGciOiJSUzI1NiIsIng1dCI6ImVuaDlCSnJWUFU1aWpWMXFqWmpWLWZMMmJjbyJ9.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.uP4j7N_rm3LrDJC-r2hbPT-7wwebV9e8b84MiNtTRfJNndiU3fpfam7-P_13n9f6s-qxedbTupeq7_pmzhuQcbC5hoWvEafbsyET9HTGdDbz64CMrS2dOkpbyAmw9sh6F_RC_51dUaoiFscBZG4h62VgoUKqn-LEkpMZmlYd-favPj8JMdNIwGneqTInWxZiqVWUOHYz2DI16lU5EsCeTA_w_teCtFT9-tNQlGMYNzWHckM3kIImizfy-LaT9C8-D6nJm1EDyPo6ORfTmGsDqXQfZvK-bzcqig8zr9-Y1g-j8Wb3yhbTLQwu1MzomUsreK0nAgZ2117QxAflKUT2Qg&owa=outlook.live.com&isc=1

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1 hour ago, py26129 said:

Found this gem the other day.  This is someone's idea of a garboard drain on a C&C 35 mkIII.  Cobbled together from hardware store parts and installed using the latest in marine expertise

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Your link came up like this, py....

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Funny. I pasted the picture and it showed up fine on my laptop, but not on the phone.  So, attempt #2:

 

IMG_20170524_135347.jpg

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Tell me that isn't Ish's keel!

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1 minute ago, SloopJonB said:

Tell me that isn't Ish's keel!

That isn't my keel. That's some poor bastard who lives near thin water and has to haul out every winter. 

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It isn't my keel.  I do have a 35-III, and put in a garboard plug - but thank god it looks a hell of a lot better than that!!!

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Garboard plugs are your friend in a damp and sometimes freezing climate, especially if a keel-stepped mast is left standing. I recall doing a couple of C&C 35s where I tapped 3/8 NPT threads right into the FG and then installed allen-headed SS pipe plugs...hope that doesn't sound too Origami, but it worked well and was almost invisible.

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This one has some other interesting features like,  at least two,  onion size bulges in the lead keel. I can only assume they were caused by water running down,  next to the keel bolts and then freezing during the winter. 

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2 hours ago, Jim in Halifax said:

hope that doesn't sound too Origami, but it worked well and was almost invisible.

Excellent coinage.  Sorry if I've missed it before. I'll have to be careful not to drop it into casual conversations...

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