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albanyguy

Missing yacht from RHKYC

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who listens to HF these days?

( ok Vietnam) and?

just checked an old ALRS vol 5 2007 no station in Philippines but says planned....

Who lisitens? Plain old HF absolutely no one, they are expensive door stops.

 

DSC HF on the other hand every statutory rescue authority in the world or for the uninitiated the folks that keep an eye out for your EPIRB. Note: They don't follow Yellowbricks.

 

This story is not just about distress capability but also weather routing capability. What equipment was on board for that?

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Yellowbrick trackers and similiar are a marvelous thing for keeping family and friends, and if you are racing, the RC aware of where you generaly are. As a means for signaling distress, well quite frankly that is the last thing they should be used for, particulary for ocean crossings.

 

The reason for this is pretty simple. Reliability and real time position reporting accuracy is not good enough, they communicate only one way and they are not constantly monitored. That is why RC's still insist on regular position reports via HF or in some coastal races via a Sat phone.

 

On the other hand a DSC HF at the push of the Red Emergency Button will immediately transmit your exact position and a preprogrammed message outlining the nature of your difficulties. It will keep repeatedly sending this distress message automaticaly until you recieve a receipt acknowledgement signal from authorities monitoring world wide 24/7. That DSC HF distress alert is also recorded.

 

You will then know you have been heard, that authorities are now monitoring HF voice distress frequency's to hear further details from you in person and that ships in your area have been alerted to your predicament. If you have also activated your GPS enabled EPIRB the same authorities in the same room will then be tracking your position in real time and if need be coordinating your rescue.

 

This ability to get out a distress specific message and your exact position to statutory authorities all at the push of one button before you say loose power or have to abandon the vessel is paramount. For private recreational vessels there is no piece of equipment other than a DSC HF that has that capability.

 

In addition an HF equiped with a data modem can not only monitor voice weather alerts but download the very latest weather gribs existing and forecast for instant overlay on electronic charts that are indicating your position, SOG and COG in relation to that weather.

 

If your not in distress but simply want to communicate with the outside world? Use your DSC HF to email family and friends about the wonderful time your having, or make a station to station call just like a phone.

 

What is that all worth in dollars, either as primary or redundancy platform if you have sat data capapability?

 

A YB or a voice only phone has none of the above distress or weather routing capabilities. The crazy thing is that many use them for ocean crossings as their only distress platform and simply sail on ignorant as to what is actually happening weather wise.

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how does a coast station listen to an epirb?

how about the country's with the satellite gear listen then send a message to the relevant coast station RCC,

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Yellowbrick trackers and similiar are a marvelous thing for keeping family and friends, and if you are racing, the RC aware of where you generaly are. As a means for signaling distress, well quite frankly that is the last thing they should be used for, particulary for ocean crossings.

 

The reason for this is pretty simple. Reliability and real time position reporting accuracy is not good enough, they communicate only one way and they are not constantly monitored. That is why RC's still insist on regular position reports via HF or in some coastal races via a Sat phone.

 

On the other hand a DSC HF at the push of the Red Emergency Button will immediately transmit your exact position and a preprogrammed message outlining the nature of your difficulties. It will keep repeatedly sending this distress message automaticaly until you recieve a receipt acknowledgement signal from authorities monitoring world wide 24/7. That DSC HF distress alert is also recorded.

 

You will then know you have been heard, that authorities are now monitoring HF voice distress frequency's to hear further details from you in person and that ships in your area have been alerted to your predicament. If you have also activated your GPS enabled EPIRB the same authorities in the same room will then be tracking your position in real time and if need be coordinating your rescue.

 

This ability to get out a distress specific message and your exact position to statutory authorities all at the push of one button before you say loose power or have to abandon the vessel is paramount. For private recreational vessels there is no piece of equipment other than a DSC HF that has that capability.

 

In addition an HF equiped with a data modem can not only monitor voice weather alerts but download the very latest weather gribs existing and forecast for instant overlay on electronic charts that are indicating your position, SOG and COG in relation to that weather.

 

If your not in distress but simply want to communicate with the outside world? Use your DSC HF to email family and friends about the wonderful time your having, or make a station to station call just like a phone.

 

What is that all worth in dollars, either as primary or redundancy platform if you have sat data capapability?

 

A YB or a voice only phone has none of the above distress or weather routing capabilities. The crazy thing is that many use them for ocean crossings as their only distress platform and simply sail on ignorant as to what is actually happening weather wise.

 

SENDING AND RECEIVING TEXT MESSAGES OR E-MAILS = 2 WAY COMMUNICATION.

 

POSITION IS ACCURATE TO ABOUT 15 METERS

 

A COMPETENT FRIEND MONITORING A YACHT'S PROGRESS CAN ALERT AUTHORITIES IN THE EVENT OF AN EMERGENCY.

 

THE SINGLE BUTTON PRESS IN AN EMERGENCY MAKES A YELLOW BRICK AN IDEAL ADDITION TO EPIRB. IN THIS PARTICULAR CASE AUTHORITIES COULD HAVE INSTIGATED RESCUE ON SUNDAY HAD A MESSAGE BEEN RECEIVED OF A POTENTIAL EMERGENCY.

 

FFS STOP WITH THE MIS INFORMATION.

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how does a coast station listen to an epirb?

how about the country's with the satellite gear listen then send a message to the relevant coast station RCC,

Digital distress signals transmitted on VHF and HF distress frequency bands by DSC equiped radios, Inmarsat-C satellite internet devices, EPIRB's and PLB's are dealt with under protocols established by the International Maritime Rescue Federation (IMRF). This a global organisation that unites and represents the world's operational marine rescue services both civilian and military.

 

The individual marine rescue service authority for your country will outline its area of signal surveillance, how it recieves them and the actions it takes under the above protocols, including signals it recieves from areas outside its area of surveillance.

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Yellowbrick trackers and similiar are a marvelous thing for keeping family and friends, and if you are racing, the RC aware of where you generaly are. As a means for signaling distress, well quite frankly that is the last thing they should be used for, particulary for ocean crossings.

 

The reason for this is pretty simple. Reliability and real time position reporting accuracy is not good enough, they communicate only one way and they are not constantly monitored. That is why RC's still insist on regular position reports via HF or in some coastal races via a Sat phone.

 

On the other hand a DSC HF at the push of the Red Emergency Button will immediately transmit your exact position and a preprogrammed message outlining the nature of your difficulties. It will keep repeatedly sending this distress message automaticaly until you recieve a receipt acknowledgement signal from authorities monitoring world wide 24/7. That DSC HF distress alert is also recorded.

 

You will then know you have been heard, that authorities are now monitoring HF voice distress frequency's to hear further details from you in person and that ships in your area have been alerted to your predicament. If you have also activated your GPS enabled EPIRB the same authorities in the same room will then be tracking your position in real time and if need be coordinating your rescue.

 

This ability to get out a distress specific message and your exact position to statutory authorities all at the push of one button before you say loose power or have to abandon the vessel is paramount. For private recreational vessels there is no piece of equipment other than a DSC HF that has that capability.

 

In addition an HF equiped with a data modem can not only monitor voice weather alerts but download the very latest weather gribs existing and forecast for instant overlay on electronic charts that are indicating your position, SOG and COG in relation to that weather.

 

If your not in distress but simply want to communicate with the outside world? Use your DSC HF to email family and friends about the wonderful time your having, or make a station to station call just like a phone.

 

What is that all worth in dollars, either as primary or redundancy platform if you have sat data capapability?

 

A YB or a voice only phone has none of the above distress or weather routing capabilities. The crazy thing is that many use them for ocean crossings as their only distress platform and simply sail on ignorant as to what is actually happening weather wise.

SENDING AND RECEIVING TEXT MESSAGES OR E-MAILS = 2 WAY COMMUNICATION.

 

POSITION IS ACCURATE TO ABOUT 15 METERS

 

A COMPETENT FRIEND MONITORING A YACHT'S PROGRESS CAN ALERT AUTHORITIES IN THE EVENT OF AN EMERGENCY.

 

THE SINGLE BUTTON PRESS IN AN EMERGENCY MAKES A YELLOW BRICK AN IDEAL ADDITION TO EPIRB. IN THIS PARTICULAR CASE AUTHORITIES COULD HAVE INSTIGATED RESCUE ON SUNDAY HAD A MESSAGE BEEN RECEIVED OF A POTENTIAL EMERGENCY.

 

FFS STOP WITH THE MIS INFORMATION.

Stop shouting, there is no misinformation there if you care to read carefully, and good luck with your distress system....it sounds marvelous.

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who listens to HF these days?

( ok Vietnam) and?

just checked an old ALRS vol 5 2007 no station in Philippines but says planned....

Who lisitens? Plain old HF absolutely no one, they are expensive door stops.

 

DSC HF on the other hand every statutory rescue authority in the world or for the uninitiated the folks that keep an eye out for your EPIRB. Note: They don't follow Yellowbricks.

 

This story is not just about distress capability but also weather routing capability. What equipment was on board for that?

 

 

 

THEY DON'T FOLLOW YELLOW BRICKS - YOUR FAMILY AND FRIENDS FOLLOW YOU ON A YELLOW BRICK, THEY THEN ALERT AUTHORITIES IN THE EVENT OF AN EMERGENCY.

 

THEY THEN COMMUNICATE WITH YOU EVEN WHILE YOU'RE SITTING IN A LIFE RAFT.

 

THE BATTERY LASTS FOR ABOUT A MONTH.

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who listens to HF these days?

( ok Vietnam) and?

just checked an old ALRS vol 5 2007 no station in Philippines but says planned....

Who lisitens? Plain old HF absolutely no one, they are expensive door stops.

 

DSC HF on the other hand every statutory rescue authority in the world or for the uninitiated the folks that keep an eye out for your EPIRB. Note: They don't follow Yellowbricks.

 

This story is not just about distress capability but also weather routing capability. What equipment was on board for that?

 

THEY DON'T FOLLOW YELLOW BRICKS - YOUR FAMILY AND FRIENDS FOLLOW YOU ON A YELLOW BRICK, THEY THEN ALERT AUTHORITIES IN THE EVENT OF AN EMERGENCY.

 

THEY THEN COMMUNICATE WITH YOU EVEN WHILE YOU'RE SITTING IN A LIFE RAFT.

 

THE BATTERY LASTS FOR ABOUT A MONTH.

Gee they are up 24/7 glued to the computer how comforting, you should start your own rescue authority. By the way I have done thousands of race miles with a YB hanging off the pushpit and like those that have, we would not trust our lives to it ...you turnip.

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Despite the mixture of sarcasm and general apathy reflected in this thread, it should be evident to all that, had these people had family and or friends looking out for them and providing them with reasonable information, this tragedy would never have happened.

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hold on gentlemen. no need to get testy. i believe we are all saying the same thing from different approaches. i believe that we now need to ask what was said, or not said Friday when the crew was talking to Jerry. at this point with no news at all, we have to start looking at the cold hard fact that the boat and crew are gone. i believe we need to now start getting the facts (truth) together and help what ever authorities are out there.

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Yellowbrick trackers and similiar are a marvelous thing for keeping family and friends, and if you are racing, the RC aware of where you generaly are. As a means for signaling distress, well quite frankly that is the last thing they should be used for, particulary for ocean crossings.

 

The reason for this is pretty simple. Reliability and real time position reporting accuracy is not good enough, they communicate only one way and they are not constantly monitored. That is why RC's still insist on regular position reports via HF or in some coastal races via a Sat phone.

 

On the other hand a DSC HF at the push of the Red Emergency Button will immediately transmit your exact position and a preprogrammed message outlining the nature of your difficulties. It will keep repeatedly sending this distress message automaticaly until you recieve a receipt acknowledgement signal from authorities monitoring world wide 24/7. That DSC HF distress alert is also recorded.

 

You will then know you have been heard, that authorities are now monitoring HF voice distress frequency's to hear further details from you in person and that ships in your area have been alerted to your predicament. If you have also activated your GPS enabled EPIRB the same authorities in the same room will then be tracking your position in real time and if need be coordinating your rescue.

 

This ability to get out a distress specific message and your exact position to statutory authorities all at the push of one button before you say loose power or have to abandon the vessel is paramount. For private recreational vessels there is no piece of equipment other than a DSC HF that has that capability.

 

In addition an HF equiped with a data modem can not only monitor voice weather alerts but download the very latest weather gribs existing and forecast for instant overlay on electronic charts that are indicating your position, SOG and COG in relation to that weather.

 

If your not in distress but simply want to communicate with the outside world? Use your DSC HF to email family and friends about the wonderful time your having, or make a station to station call just like a phone.

 

What is that all worth in dollars, either as primary or redundancy platform if you have sat data capapability?

 

A YB or a voice only phone has none of the above distress or weather routing capabilities. The crazy thing is that many use them for ocean crossings as their only distress platform and simply sail on ignorant as to what is actually happening weather wise.

SENDING AND RECEIVING TEXT MESSAGES OR E-MAILS = 2 WAY COMMUNICATION.

 

POSITION IS ACCURATE TO ABOUT 15 METERS

 

A COMPETENT FRIEND MONITORING A YACHT'S PROGRESS CAN ALERT AUTHORITIES IN THE EVENT OF AN EMERGENCY.

 

THE SINGLE BUTTON PRESS IN AN EMERGENCY MAKES A YELLOW BRICK AN IDEAL ADDITION TO EPIRB. IN THIS PARTICULAR CASE AUTHORITIES COULD HAVE INSTIGATED RESCUE ON SUNDAY HAD A MESSAGE BEEN RECEIVED OF A POTENTIAL EMERGENCY.

 

FFS STOP WITH THE MIS INFORMATION.

Stop shouting, there is no misinformation there if you care to read carefully, and good luck with your distress system....it sounds marvelous.

 

 

"The reason for this is pretty simple. Reliability and real time position reporting accuracy is not good enough, they communicate only one way and they are not constantly monitored. That is why RC's still insist on regular position reports via HF or in some coastal races via a Sat phone."

 

That is mis information.

 

Thus "there is no misinformation there" is also misinformation

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......had these people had family and or friends looking out for them and providing them with reasonable information, this tragedy would never have happened.

They had a family and friends weather routing and distress platform and it failed. Did they also have one provided directly by, monitored and coordinated at long range 24/7 by international agencies, who knows, but it would appear not.

 

You really do need a head transplant.

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......had these people had family and or friends looking out for them and providing them with reasonable information, this tragedy would never have happened.

They had a family and friends weather routing and distress platform and it failed. Did they also have one provided directly by, monitored and coordinated at long range 24/7 by international agencies, who knows, but it would appear not.

 

You really do need a head transplant.

 

hmmm.....i would not make such a blanket statement Jack. yes, they all have families and friends. having lived here my whole life and seeing how certain types of ex-pats operate around here. they tend not to care much about thier families. most likely they told thier families they were off to HK to pick up a boat and bring it back to Subic/Manila and i will see you when i get back. most of these guys are rather arrogant and treat people with a certain distane as they seem to know it all. and it is this attitude that gets people in trouble. and sadly, i believe this is what happened here.

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Yellowbrick trackers and similiar are a marvelous thing for keeping family and friends, and if you are racing, the RC aware of where you generaly are. As a means for signaling distress, well quite frankly that is the last thing they should be used for, particulary for ocean crossings.

 

The reason for this is pretty simple. Reliability and real time position reporting accuracy is not good enough, they communicate only one way and they are not constantly monitored. That is why RC's still insist on regular position reports via HF or in some coastal races via a Sat phone.

 

On the other hand a DSC HF at the push of the Red Emergency Button will immediately transmit your exact position and a preprogrammed message outlining the nature of your difficulties. It will keep repeatedly sending this distress message automaticaly until you recieve a receipt acknowledgement signal from authorities monitoring world wide 24/7. That DSC HF distress alert is also recorded.

 

You will then know you have been heard, that authorities are now monitoring HF voice distress frequency's to hear further details from you in person and that ships in your area have been alerted to your predicament. If you have also activated your GPS enabled EPIRB the same authorities in the same room will then be tracking your position in real time and if need be coordinating your rescue.

 

This ability to get out a distress specific message and your exact position to statutory authorities all at the push of one button before you say loose power or have to abandon the vessel is paramount. For private recreational vessels there is no piece of equipment other than a DSC HF that has that capability.

 

In addition an HF equiped with a data modem can not only monitor voice weather alerts but download the very latest weather gribs existing and forecast for instant overlay on electronic charts that are indicating your position, SOG and COG in relation to that weather.

 

If your not in distress but simply want to communicate with the outside world? Use your DSC HF to email family and friends about the wonderful time your having, or make a station to station call just like a phone.

 

What is that all worth in dollars, either as primary or redundancy platform if you have sat data capapability?

 

A YB or a voice only phone has none of the above distress or weather routing capabilities. The crazy thing is that many use them for ocean crossings as their only distress platform and simply sail on ignorant as to what is actually happening weather wise.

SENDING AND RECEIVING TEXT MESSAGES OR E-MAILS = 2 WAY COMMUNICATION.

 

POSITION IS ACCURATE TO ABOUT 15 METERS

 

A COMPETENT FRIEND MONITORING A YACHT'S PROGRESS CAN ALERT AUTHORITIES IN THE EVENT OF AN EMERGENCY.

 

THE SINGLE BUTTON PRESS IN AN EMERGENCY MAKES A YELLOW BRICK AN IDEAL ADDITION TO EPIRB. IN THIS PARTICULAR CASE AUTHORITIES COULD HAVE INSTIGATED RESCUE ON SUNDAY HAD A MESSAGE BEEN RECEIVED OF A POTENTIAL EMERGENCY.

 

FFS STOP WITH THE MIS INFORMATION.

Stop shouting, there is no misinformation there if you care to read carefully, and good luck with your distress system....it sounds marvelous.

"The reason for this is pretty simple. Reliability and real time position reporting accuracy is not good enough, they communicate only one way and they are not constantly monitored. That is why RC's still insist on regular position reports via HF or in some coastal races via a Sat phone."

 

That is mis information.

 

Thus "there is no misinformation there" is also misinformation

The YB two way communication you refer to is not in real time, the delay can extend to many hours and reliable either in upload or download it is not. It can be considered a smart but slower, less reliable and part time monitored EPIRB. Excellent as a redundancy emergency device but certainly should not be used as the sole or primary safety platform over DSC VHF for coastal and DSC HF or Inmarsat-C satellite for ocean passages.

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hold on gentlemen. no need to get testy. i believe we are all saying the same thing from different approaches. i believe that we now need to ask what was said, or not said Friday when the crew was talking to Jerry. at this point with no news at all, we have to start looking at the cold hard fact that the boat and crew are gone. i believe we need to now start getting the facts (truth) together and help what ever authorities are out there.

George I agree and it would be helpful to know what comms gear they had. The absence of all but a EPIRB signal is only an indicator she was not equiped with anything more than a sat phone. They might have had the whole kaboodle for weather routing and distress for all we know.

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Yellowbrick trackers and similiar are a marvelous thing for keeping family and friends, and if you are racing, the RC aware of where you generaly are. As a means for signaling distress, well quite frankly that is the last thing they should be used for, particulary for ocean crossings.

 

The reason for this is pretty simple. Reliability and real time position reporting accuracy is not good enough, they communicate only one way and they are not constantly monitored. That is why RC's still insist on regular position reports via HF or in some coastal races via a Sat phone.

 

On the other hand a DSC HF at the push of the Red Emergency Button will immediately transmit your exact position and a preprogrammed message outlining the nature of your difficulties. It will keep repeatedly sending this distress message automaticaly until you recieve a receipt acknowledgement signal from authorities monitoring world wide 24/7. That DSC HF distress alert is also recorded.

 

You will then know you have been heard, that authorities are now monitoring HF voice distress frequency's to hear further details from you in person and that ships in your area have been alerted to your predicament. If you have also activated your GPS enabled EPIRB the same authorities in the same room will then be tracking your position in real time and if need be coordinating your rescue.

 

This ability to get out a distress specific message and your exact position to statutory authorities all at the push of one button before you say loose power or have to abandon the vessel is paramount. For private recreational vessels there is no piece of equipment other than a DSC HF that has that capability.

 

In addition an HF equiped with a data modem can not only monitor voice weather alerts but download the very latest weather gribs existing and forecast for instant overlay on electronic charts that are indicating your position, SOG and COG in relation to that weather.

 

If your not in distress but simply want to communicate with the outside world? Use your DSC HF to email family and friends about the wonderful time your having, or make a station to station call just like a phone.

 

What is that all worth in dollars, either as primary or redundancy platform if you have sat data capapability?

 

A YB or a voice only phone has none of the above distress or weather routing capabilities. The crazy thing is that many use them for ocean crossings as their only distress platform and simply sail on ignorant as to what is actually happening weather wise.

SENDING AND RECEIVING TEXT MESSAGES OR E-MAILS = 2 WAY COMMUNICATION.

 

POSITION IS ACCURATE TO ABOUT 15 METERS

 

A COMPETENT FRIEND MONITORING A YACHT'S PROGRESS CAN ALERT AUTHORITIES IN THE EVENT OF AN EMERGENCY.

 

THE SINGLE BUTTON PRESS IN AN EMERGENCY MAKES A YELLOW BRICK AN IDEAL ADDITION TO EPIRB. IN THIS PARTICULAR CASE AUTHORITIES COULD HAVE INSTIGATED RESCUE ON SUNDAY HAD A MESSAGE BEEN RECEIVED OF A POTENTIAL EMERGENCY.

 

FFS STOP WITH THE MIS INFORMATION.

Stop shouting, there is no misinformation there if you care to read carefully, and good luck with your distress system....it sounds marvelous.

"The reason for this is pretty simple. Reliability and real time position reporting accuracy is not good enough, they communicate only one way and they are not constantly monitored. That is why RC's still insist on regular position reports via HF or in some coastal races via a Sat phone."

 

That is mis information.

 

Thus "there is no misinformation there" is also misinformation

The YB two way communication you refer to is not in real time, the delay can extend to many hours and reliable either in upload or download it is not. It can be considered a smart but slower, less reliable and part time monitored EPIRB. Excellent as a redundancy emergency device but certainly should not be used as the sole or primary safety platform over DSC VHF for coastal and DSC HF or Inmarsat-C satellite for ocean passages.

 

 

Uh, did you read what I said?

 

"THE SINGLE BUTTON PRESS IN AN EMERGENCY MAKES A YELLOW BRICK AN IDEAL ADDITION TO EPIRB"

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Yellowbrick trackers and similiar are a marvelous thing for keeping family and friends, and if you are racing, the RC aware of where you generaly are. As a means for signaling distress, well quite frankly that is the last thing they should be used for, particulary for ocean crossings.

 

The reason for this is pretty simple. Reliability and real time position reporting accuracy is not good enough, they communicate only one way and they are not constantly monitored. That is why RC's still insist on regular position reports via HF or in some coastal races via a Sat phone.

 

On the other hand a DSC HF at the push of the Red Emergency Button will immediately transmit your exact position and a preprogrammed message outlining the nature of your difficulties. It will keep repeatedly sending this distress message automaticaly until you recieve a receipt acknowledgement signal from authorities monitoring world wide 24/7. That DSC HF distress alert is also recorded.

 

You will then know you have been heard, that authorities are now monitoring HF voice distress frequency's to hear further details from you in person and that ships in your area have been alerted to your predicament. If you have also activated your GPS enabled EPIRB the same authorities in the same room will then be tracking your position in real time and if need be coordinating your rescue.

 

This ability to get out a distress specific message and your exact position to statutory authorities all at the push of one button before you say loose power or have to abandon the vessel is paramount. For private recreational vessels there is no piece of equipment other than a DSC HF that has that capability.

 

In addition an HF equiped with a data modem can not only monitor voice weather alerts but download the very latest weather gribs existing and forecast for instant overlay on electronic charts that are indicating your position, SOG and COG in relation to that weather.

 

If your not in distress but simply want to communicate with the outside world? Use your DSC HF to email family and friends about the wonderful time your having, or make a station to station call just like a phone.

 

What is that all worth in dollars, either as primary or redundancy platform if you have sat data capapability?

 

A YB or a voice only phone has none of the above distress or weather routing capabilities. The crazy thing is that many use them for ocean crossings as their only distress platform and simply sail on ignorant as to what is actually happening weather wise.

SENDING AND RECEIVING TEXT MESSAGES OR E-MAILS = 2 WAY COMMUNICATION.

 

POSITION IS ACCURATE TO ABOUT 15 METERS

 

A COMPETENT FRIEND MONITORING A YACHT'S PROGRESS CAN ALERT AUTHORITIES IN THE EVENT OF AN EMERGENCY.

 

THE SINGLE BUTTON PRESS IN AN EMERGENCY MAKES A YELLOW BRICK AN IDEAL ADDITION TO EPIRB. IN THIS PARTICULAR CASE AUTHORITIES COULD HAVE INSTIGATED RESCUE ON SUNDAY HAD A MESSAGE BEEN RECEIVED OF A POTENTIAL EMERGENCY.

 

FFS STOP WITH THE MIS INFORMATION.

Stop shouting, there is no misinformation there if you care to read carefully, and good luck with your distress system....it sounds marvelous.

"The reason for this is pretty simple. Reliability and real time position reporting accuracy is not good enough, they communicate only one way and they are not constantly monitored. That is why RC's still insist on regular position reports via HF or in some coastal races via a Sat phone."

 

That is mis information.

 

Thus "there is no misinformation there" is also misinformation

The YB two way communication you refer to is not in real time, the delay can extend to many hours and reliable either in upload or download it is not. It can be considered a smart but slower, less reliable and part time monitored EPIRB. Excellent as a redundancy emergency device but certainly should not be used as the sole or primary safety platform over DSC VHF for coastal and DSC HF or Inmarsat-C satellite for ocean passages.

 

Uh, did you read what I said?

 

"THE SINGLE BUTTON PRESS IN AN EMERGENCY MAKES A YELLOW BRICK AN IDEAL ADDITION TO EPIRB"

 

Yes that's what the word "REDUNDANCY" means and I didn't make it up, it's in the dictionary. Cav I'm not deaf and read well. It's hard though when your train of thought obviously doesn't have a caboose.

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may i suggest that we all take a break. there is no question that what has happened here is horrable. somthing you would not want to wish on your worst enemy. i believe now as a community, we sailors need to help figure out what went wrong and come up with some conclussions so that others can learn from all this. who knows, it could wind up on Discovery or National Geographic as an epside of Moments from Disaster. let's start asking the hard questions and let's see if we can help bring some closure to this tragic event.

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I'd like to know how the initial EPIRB signal was handled/shared by HK authorities and in what timeframe was the Philippines coastguard alerted?

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I'd like to know how the initial EPIRB signal was handled/shared by HK authorities and in what timeframe was the Philippines coastguard alerted?

excelent question. just one of many to be asked.

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Maybe I have missed it, but what was the yacht in question?. Was it a Beneteau?

I know Robin Wyatt has a yacht brooking business called Europa Yachts which handles Azimut, Beneteau and a couple of others.

thanks.

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Maybe I have missed it, but what was the yacht in question?. Was it a Beneteau?

I know Robin Wyatt has a yacht brooking business called Europa Yachts which handles Azimut, Beneteau and a couple of others.

thanks.

according to Capt. Marty's it was Bene Oceanis-60.

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Maybe I have missed it, but what was the yacht in question?. Was it a Beneteau?

I know Robin Wyatt has a yacht brooking business called Europa Yachts which handles Azimut, Beneteau and a couple of others.

thanks.

according to Capt. Marty's it was Bene Oceanis-60.

"Oceanis".... there should be law governing brand names and capability.

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a ship has also disappeared off the Bahamas with a very experienced skipper and they cant understand the course he took into the hurricane.

Perhaps both these vessels received wrong weather data as the cause?

 

PS EPIRBS are not all equals, if its an older one with no GPS then it takes longer via several sat passes to work out where it is via doppler effect

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The debate, EPIRB, Y/B HF radio SatPhone etc., is really just here to run interference.

 

The real question;

 

What exactly was discussed during the SatPhone conversation at 12 noon on Friday October 2?

 

Answers? Or more fog and misinformation?

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The debate, EPIRB, Y/B HF radio SatPhone etc., is really just here to run interference.

 

The real question;

 

What exactly was discussed during the SatPhone conversation at 12 noon on Friday October 2?

 

Answers? Or more fog and misinformation?

That answer obviousy won't be found here, but more to the point, it adds little if nothing. The die had already been cast by then for these poor buggers. Of far greater importance is why they departed, why they continued and were they properly informed and prepared for what they encountered. Those answers don't lie with an 11th hour telephone call last Friday afternoon when it was already too late to get out of Dodge.

 

I would hope most thinking people are more interested in learning from discussions about this tragedy, details permitting, and if only to avoid making the same mistakes themselves.

 

On the other hand you are dismisive of that discussion. Is that because it doesn't accord with your viewpoint and or satisfy your morbid curiosity over a private conversation between two people? Not just that, but where one of the parties in all probability is now dead and with that corroboration is all but gone.

 

Cavalier I mean no disrespect, but enough is enough.

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The debate, EPIRB, Y/B HF radio SatPhone etc., is really just here to run interference.

 

The real question;

 

What exactly was discussed during the SatPhone conversation at 12 noon on Friday October 2?

 

Answers? Or more fog and misinformation?

That answer obviousy won't be found here, but more to the point, it adds little if nothing. The die had already been cast by then for these poor buggers. Of far greater importance is why they departed, why they continued and were they properly informed and prepared for what they encountered. Those answers don't lie with an 11th hour telephone call last Friday afternoon when it was already too late to get out of Dodge.

 

I would hope most thinking people are more interested in learning from discussions about this tragedy, details permitting, and if only to avoid making the same mistakes themselves.

 

On the other hand you are dismisive of that discussion. Is that because it doesn't accord with your viewpoint and or satisfy your morbid curiosity over a private conversation between two people? Not just that, but where one of the parties in all probability is now dead and with that corroboration is all but gone.

 

Cavalier I mean no disrespect, but enough is enough.

 

 

 

The die was far from cast at 12:00 on Friday Oct 2. They were approximately 200nm from HK and a safe harbour. They were still approximately 230nm from the center of the approaching storm.

 

Based on the weather information that was available to a shore based contact at 12:00 on Friday and assuming a reasonable level of understanding of that information, the choices at that time were;

 

1. Return to HK and safe harbour.

 

That would certainly appear to be the best and most logical choice. They were approximately 200 nm from HK and the storm was approximately 430 nm from HK, tracking at 12knots.

 

That gave them 35 hours to reach HK. The approaching storm would have brought wind and waves on their beam meaning they should have no difficulty averaging the 5.7 knots required to reach safe harbour.

 

Was that option discussed during the conversation?

 

Was there a reason for not returning to HK?

 

2. Run SW or SSW to cross in front of the approaching storm and get on to the 'Navigable Side'.

 

While far from ideal, this was the only remaining sensible choice given the proximity of the approaching storm.

 

From their estimated position they needed to cover 110nm to cross the forecast path of the storm. The storm was at that time 220nm or 18 hours from the forecast crossing point.

 

Far from adding "little or nothing", that conversation is crucial in determining why, as experienced sailors, they did not make either of those choices.

 

If anyone else communicated with them between the time they departed HK and the time of the activation of the EPIRB, then that will can only provide further insight.

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Other than having to break out a seance board to interrogate the thoughts of the deceased, good to see you have had a penny drop moment Cav. Cheers

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Other than having to break out a seance board to interrogate the thoughts of the deceased, good to see you have had a penny drop moment Cav. Cheers

 

So who are you jack_sparrow?

 

One party to that conversation at noon on Friday is, or certainly was at the time of the interview, still very much alive. Or did that just slip by you?

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Other than having to break out a seance board to interrogate the thoughts of the deceased, good to see you have had a penny drop moment Cav. Cheers

So who are you jack_sparrow?

 

One party to that conversation at noon on Friday is, or certainly was at the time of the interview, still very much alive. Or did that just slip by you?

Don't regress on us now Cav, you are doing well.....I said "thoughts" (& in their entirity) of the deceased NOT what he or someone else "said" in a conversation.

 

As to your question....

 

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this whole event is an unfortunate tragedy. The sea is a hard task master who can punish transgressions if she feels like it, or act benignly and let us survive our mistakes. I am sure that any that have done the time on open water has had occasion to thank god, neptune or whoever becomes your savior at the time, for not extracting the final punishment for foolish decisions. I have certainly been on the receiving end of a serious spanking for my hubris. No amount of wanting to know what was discussed between a group that are unlikely to survive will achieve anything positive, apart from some people being able to pontificate on about how the boat shouldn't have done it or they would never make that decision in those conditions. In all likelihood we have lost 5 sailors to the sea, do you really think we can learn anything apart from be careful and try not to get to cocky or Mother Nature may give you a beatdown.

 

The families of these missing sailors need our support not some internet witch hunt that will judge them in the harsh light of our living room. We all makes mistakes and these have probably made the greatest mistake possible, let them rest. Think of them the next time you are out on the ocean and give them some respect.

 

As for the so called conversation on the Friday, it has nothing to do with us. Do you not think that the person involves will already be wondering if he could have done more to save his friends, or is pushing this subject more to do with axes to be ground over a different subject.

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this whole event is an unfortunate tragedy. The sea is a hard task master who can punish transgressions if she feels like it, or act benignly and let us survive our mistakes. I am sure that any that have done the time on open water has had occasion to thank god, neptune or whoever becomes your savior at the time, for not extracting the final punishment for foolish decisions. I have certainly been on the receiving end of a serious spanking for my hubris. No amount of wanting to know what was discussed between a group that are unlikely to survive will achieve anything positive, apart from some people being able to pontificate on about how the boat shouldn't have done it or they would never make that decision in those conditions. In all likelihood we have lost 5 sailors to the sea, do you really think we can learn anything apart from be careful and try not to get to cocky or Mother Nature may give you a beatdown.

 

The families of these missing sailors need our support not some internet witch hunt that will judge them in the harsh light of our living room. We all makes mistakes and these have probably made the greatest mistake possible, let them rest. Think of them the next time you are out on the ocean and give them some respect.

 

As for the so called conversation on the Friday, it has nothing to do with us. Do you not think that the person involves will already be wondering if he could have done more to save his friends, or is pushing this subject more to do with axes to be ground over a different subject.

+1 Hear Hear

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As for the so called conversation on the Friday, it has nothing to do with us. Do you not think that the person involves will already be wondering if he could have done more to save his friends, or is pushing this subject more to do with axes to be ground over a different subject.

 

I too have made my share of unwise decisions and lived to tell the tale.

 

I agree totally with your first two paragraphs, and for that reason have not quoted them.

 

While all who know me are aware of my feelings toward Michael jeremy Rollin, I can say with equanimity, I would ask these questions of anyone who communicated with the skipper and crew.

 

Having left HK knowing that there was a storm in front of them, it is beyond a reasonable doubt that the purpose of the call to Rollin on Friday was to obtain a weather update, rather than to let him know "everything was fine", as he stated in the interview.

 

That said, if Rollin advised them not to proceed toward the storm and certainly not to attempt to pass above it, did they explain why they would disregard such advice?

 

If, due to the information he had at that time, Rollin was not competent to advise them of the danger they were heading toward, did he at least advise them of that fact?

 

While you may feel this has nothing to do with you, I am the Vice Commodore of the Manila Yacht Club who have lost a life member.

 

I also hold the rank of Captain in the Philippine Coast Guard Auxiliary.

 

Determining why experienced sailors would act as they did is absolutely necessary.

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Seems its time to play join the dots.

 

DOT 1. They received shit external advice on route and either followed it or ignored it. Alternatively they received excellent external advice on route and either followed it or ignored it.

 

DOT 2. Ask them the question what they ACTUALLY did in response to this advice?

 

DOT 3. No answer to #2 because they unfortunately have all perished.

 

DOT 4. Did they leave HK with this external advisor, presumably with expertise for the role, as their SOLE source of external information OR was this advise SUPPLEMENTARY ONLY because they had the proper on-board equipment AND skills to weather-route a 60' beachball, over 600 nautical miles through a typhoon area in October, Yes OR No?

 

CONCLUSION

 

No answer is clearly going to be forthcoming to DOTS 2/3. Furthermore ultimate responsiblity rests with the Skipper, NOT his source of external information.

 

Therefore Cav I respectfully suggest your energies would be better spent, particularly if your a Flag Officer of the Manila Yacht Club and Captain in the Philippine Coast Guard Auxiliary, chasing to ground the answer to DOT 4?

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As stated in the interview, the onshore coordinator was Michael Jeremy Rollin.

 

Do you not think he may be able to shed some light?

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As stated in the interview, the onshore coordinator was Michael Jeremy Rollin.

 

Do you not think he may be able to shed some light?

Is that a riddle?

 

Surely someone's knows something of the boats weather routing equipment capability and whether or not someone had the skills to properly use it? Pretty weird if over a week after the event that is not already common knowledge.

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As stated in the interview, the onshore coordinator was Michael Jeremy Rollin.

 

Do you not think he may be able to shed some light?

Is that a riddle?

 

Surely someone's knows something of the boats weather routing equipment capability and whether or not someone had the skills to properly use it? Pretty weird if over a week after the event that is not already common knowledge.

 

 

No that's not a riddle, it's a simple question.

 

Rollin spoke to the yacht at noon on Friday. In view of that fact, do you believe he may possibly be able to shed some light on why, after that conversation, an experienced skipper and crew would decide to continue into the most dangerous area of the approaching storm?

 

Now, I've told you who I am and why I'm here, perhaps you would be decent enough to do likewise.

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.......Now, I've told you who I am and why I'm here, perhaps you would be decent enough to do likewise.

Sorry decency not the issue...I'm still getting over a bad interweb stalking experience... you have my vid though to keep you company.

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.......Now, I've told you who I am and why I'm here, perhaps you would be decent enough to do likewise.

Sorry decency not the issue...I'm still getting over a bad interweb stalking experience... you have my vid though to keep you company.

 

that is a valid question since you have been on this thread shielding Jerry quite well since it was jerry himself who put his name forward for the interview. so who are you again?

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.......Now, I've told you who I am and why I'm here, perhaps you would be decent enough to do likewise.

Sorry decency not the issue...I'm still getting over a bad interweb stalking experience... you have my vid though to keep you company.

that is a valid question since you have been on this thread shielding Jerry quite well since it was jerry himself who put his name forward for the interview. so who are you again?

"...shielding Jerry quite well...??? Ugh WTF does than mean?? My posts and point of view are explained and crystal clear. I have given my reasons, so let it go.

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.......Now, I've told you who I am and why I'm here, perhaps you would be decent enough to do likewise.

Sorry decency not the issue...I'm still getting over a bad interweb stalking experience... you have my vid though to keep you company.

that is a valid question since you have been on this thread shielding Jerry quite well since it was jerry himself who put his name forward for the interview. so who are you again?

"...shielding Jerry quite well...??? Ugh WTF does than mean?? My posts and point of view are explained and crystal clear. I have given my reasons, so let it go.

 

well, for the time being, on face value, we have to accept that you are not Jerry.

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I don't understand why after approaching a fortnight now, you locals have said zip about detailing the capabilities of the skipper and vessel/its equipment to play around with a typhoon??? That is weird to say the very least.

 

I hope it is not because it is easier or more convenient to set this Jerry guy up for a lynching?

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Nothing known about what brought the boat unstuck?

 

Yes there was terrible weather but the severe part of a typhoon can be relatively contained to a smaller area.

 

Was the boat simply overwhelmed or was there an issue such as collision or rig/rudder failure?

 

So little known and so much conjecture.

 

 

 

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as for the boat. brand new, out of the box, no sea trail i suspect, done on the cheap i suspect. basic safety equipment, probably no rig cutting tools, OEM sails being a roller furling main and roller furling genoa. basic electronics package i suspect with chartplotter and the SatPhone that we all know about.

 

of the five crew, three i know were not in any physical shape to handle an emergency. just because you have experienced a crossing or two does not make you capable or competent to handle the situtaion they were in. and i suspect a certain amount of arrogance was involved. this i believe led to unwise decision to leave without waiting to see how this weather disturbance that they knew and discussed on wednesday would play out. i also believe that they did not know the quadrants of a typhoon and how to deal with them. as i suspect others do not know also.

 

in my best guess, this is the perfect brew for a disaster. the one good thing that did happen was they had someone at the other end to call. and Jerry in his interview led us to believe that the crew called in to say all is ok? that is it? nothing more? this was during a time frame that everyone here in manila knew that there was a named typhoon in the china sea headed to HK/Vietnam. and all is ok?

 

it is what jerry did not say that has me bothered. and the way it seems that he appointed himself the Search Leader also does not sit well with me. what was the motive for this? besides the world listening to jerry, did he do this out of quilt? i do not know. i am only guessing. but if i were in his shoe, i would make sure the crew knew the situation and get the hell out of there. head back to HK is first priority. and that is information i could freely volunter in the interview.

 

and what about after that call? were there any atempts to try and call them with updates? for me, it is the silence that is not sitting right with me. and this is leaving a nasty taste in my mouth. i hope my fears are wrong, but it seems that we are not meant to know the truth. or are we, the sailing community not allowed to know the truth?

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Nothing known about what brought the boat unstuck? Yes there was terrible weather but the severe part of a typhoon can be relatively contained to a smaller area. Was the boat simply overwhelmed or was there an issue such as collision or rig/rudder failure? So little known and so much conjecture.

 

We can match the typhoon track to their known positions, this has been covered earlier in the thread.

 

The yacht sailed straight into the most dangerous or 'unnavigable' side of the typhoon. They made no attempt to return to HK or, failing that, to get to the south and the 'navigable' side of the typhoon.

 

The location that the EPIRB was activated on Saturday evening was approximately 60 nm south of their position at the noon Friday Satelite phone call.

 

Five people are now presumed dead.

 

They were in communication with a shore based person who was Quote "looking out for them".

 

How could this happen?

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Nothing known about what brought the boat unstuck? Yes there was terrible weather but the severe part of a typhoon can be relatively contained to a smaller area. Was the boat simply overwhelmed or was there an issue such as collision or rig/rudder failure? So little known and so much conjecture.

 

We can match the typhoon track to their known positions, this has been covered earlier in the thread.

 

The yacht sailed straight into the most dangerous or 'unnavigable' side of the typhoon. They made no attempt to return to HK or, failing that, to get to the south and the 'navigable' side of the typhoon.

 

The location that the EPIRB was activated on Saturday evening was approximately 60 nm south of their position at the noon Friday Satelite phone call.

 

Five people are now presumed dead.

 

They were in communication with a shore based person who was Quote "looking out for them".

 

How could this happen?

 

 

It is of course foolish to sail close to a typhoon and on it's bad side.

 

If the yacht founded because of an essential piece of gear failing or because it was run down, I wonder how much of their demise is attributed to poor weather routing and how much to the other.

 

In Cheeki Rafiki's case it is firmly sheeted home to the keel failure even though they were in nasty weather.

 

In this case we can only focus on weather routing since we know nothing else.

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Nothing known about what brought the boat unstuck? Yes there was terrible weather but the severe part of a typhoon can be relatively contained to a smaller area. Was the boat simply overwhelmed or was there an issue such as collision or rig/rudder failure? So little known and so much conjecture.

 

We can match the typhoon track to their known positions, this has been covered earlier in the thread.

 

The yacht sailed straight into the most dangerous or 'unnavigable' side of the typhoon. They made no attempt to return to HK or, failing that, to get to the south and the 'navigable' side of the typhoon.

 

The location that the EPIRB was activated on Saturday evening was approximately 60 nm south of their position at the noon Friday Satelite phone call.

 

Five people are now presumed dead.

 

They were in communication with a shore based person who was Quote "looking out for them".

 

How could this happen?

 

 

It is of course foolish to sail close to a typhoon and on it's bad side.

 

If the yacht founded because of an essential piece of gear failing or because it was run down, I wonder how much of their demise is attributed to poor weather routing and how much to the other.

 

In Cheeki Rafiki's case it is firmly sheeted home to the keel failure even though they were in nasty weather.

 

In this case we can only focus on weather routing since we know nothing else.

 

 

So accepting what you say, are we to conclude that the "experienced captain and crew" were foolish? Or were they making their decisions based on information that they received after leaving HK?

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Nothing known about what brought the boat unstuck? Yes there was terrible weather but the severe part of a typhoon can be relatively contained to a smaller area. Was the boat simply overwhelmed or was there an issue such as collision or rig/rudder failure? So little known and so much conjecture.

We can match the typhoon track to their known positions, this has been covered earlier in the thread.

 

The yacht sailed straight into the most dangerous or 'unnavigable' side of the typhoon. They made no attempt to return to HK or, failing that, to get to the south and the 'navigable' side of the typhoon.

 

The location that the EPIRB was activated on Saturday evening was approximately 60 nm south of their position at the noon Friday Satelite phone call.

 

Five people are now presumed dead.

 

They were in communication with a shore based person who was Quote "looking out for them".

 

How could this happen?

It is of course foolish to sail close to a typhoon and on it's bad side.

 

If the yacht founded because of an essential piece of gear failing or because it was run down, I wonder how much of their demise is attributed to poor weather routing and how much to the other.

 

In Cheeki Rafiki's case it is firmly sheeted home to the keel failure even though they were in nasty weather.

 

In this case we can only focus on weather routing since we know nothing else.

So accepting what you say, are we to conclude that the "experienced captain and crew" were foolish? Or were they making their decisions based on information that they received after leaving HK?

Why the OR, the two are not mutually exclusive?

 

If they left HK with Jerry as their as their SOLE source of external information because they did not have the proper on-board equipment and or skills to weather-route a 60' beachball, over 600 nautical miles through a typhoon area in October....then that is the very fucking foolish bit.

 

Jerry could be a blind & deaf mute, it doesn't change that aspect one bit.

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Nothing known about what brought the boat unstuck? Yes there was terrible weather but the severe part of a typhoon can be relatively contained to a smaller area. Was the boat simply overwhelmed or was there an issue such as collision or rig/rudder failure? So little known and so much conjecture.

We can match the typhoon track to their known positions, this has been covered earlier in the thread.

 

The yacht sailed straight into the most dangerous or 'unnavigable' side of the typhoon. They made no attempt to return to HK or, failing that, to get to the south and the 'navigable' side of the typhoon.

 

The location that the EPIRB was activated on Saturday evening was approximately 60 nm south of their position at the noon Friday Satelite phone call.

 

Five people are now presumed dead.

 

They were in communication with a shore based person who was Quote "looking out for them".

 

How could this happen?

It is of course foolish to sail close to a typhoon and on it's bad side.

 

If the yacht founded because of an essential piece of gear failing or because it was run down, I wonder how much of their demise is attributed to poor weather routing and how much to the other.

 

In Cheeki Rafiki's case it is firmly sheeted home to the keel failure even though they were in nasty weather.

 

In this case we can only focus on weather routing since we know nothing else.

So accepting what you say, are we to conclude that the "experienced captain and crew" were foolish? Or were they making their decisions based on information that they received after leaving HK?

Why the OR, the two are not mutually exclusive?

 

If they left HK with Jerry as their as their SOLE source of external information because they did not have the proper on-board equipment and or skills to weather-route a 60' beachball, over 600 nautical miles through a typhoon area in October....then that is the very fucking foolish bit.

 

Jerry could be a blind & deaf mute, it doesn't change that aspect one bit.

 

so Jack. why are you so afraid to accept the possibility that your friend Jerry maybe responsible on some level here? it really looks like you are sheilding him on this thread.

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George it's obvious you guys are on a mission to crucify this Jerry guy and absolve or mitigate the skipper of his ultimate responsibilities. I honestly don't think your stupid doing this, you just have bad luck thinking.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Nothing known about what brought the boat unstuck? Yes there was terrible weather but the severe part of a typhoon can be relatively contained to a smaller area. Was the boat simply overwhelmed or was there an issue such as collision or rig/rudder failure? So little known and so much conjecture.

We can match the typhoon track to their known positions, this has been covered earlier in the thread.

 

The yacht sailed straight into the most dangerous or 'unnavigable' side of the typhoon. They made no attempt to return to HK or, failing that, to get to the south and the 'navigable' side of the typhoon.

 

The location that the EPIRB was activated on Saturday evening was approximately 60 nm south of their position at the noon Friday Satelite phone call.

 

Five people are now presumed dead.

 

They were in communication with a shore based person who was Quote "looking out for them".

 

How could this happen?

It is of course foolish to sail close to a typhoon and on it's bad side.

 

If the yacht founded because of an essential piece of gear failing or because it was run down, I wonder how much of their demise is attributed to poor weather routing and how much to the other.

 

In Cheeki Rafiki's case it is firmly sheeted home to the keel failure even though they were in nasty weather.

 

In this case we can only focus on weather routing since we know nothing else.

So accepting what you say, are we to conclude that the "experienced captain and crew" were foolish? Or were they making their decisions based on information that they received after leaving HK?

Why the OR, the two are not mutually exclusive?

 

If they left HK with Jerry as their as their SOLE source of external information because they did not have the proper on-board equipment and or skills to weather-route a 60' beachball, over 600 nautical miles through a typhoon area in October....then that is the very fucking foolish bit.

 

Jerry could be a blind & deaf mute, it doesn't change that aspect one bit.

so Jack. why are you so afraid to accept the possibility that your friend Jerry maybe responsible on some level here? it really looks like you are sheilding him on this thread.

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Sorry again but Cavalier says the EPIRB signal was 60nm South of their noon Friday position.Can someone give the precise lat/long of the Saturday signal.

Did one post not say that at Friday noon they were 200 nm miles out of HKG. Given I think they only left HKG at 2000hrs Thurs they sure were flying for that 16 hours.

if they were 60 nm miles south of their Friday noon distance surely that is way over 400 nm west of the Philippine coast? Unless I have read something wrong.

tks.

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Sorry again but Cavalier says the EPIRB signal was 60nm South of their noon Friday position.Can someone give the precise lat/long of the Saturday signal.

Did one post not say that at Friday noon they were 200 nm miles out of HKG. Given I think they only left HKG at 2000hrs Thurs they sure were flying for that 16 hours.

if they were 60 nm miles south of their Friday noon distance surely that is way over 400 nm west of the Philippine coast? Unless I have read something wrong.

tks.

 

 

They left HK before noon on Thursday. I don't have their position at noon on Friday however, I believe 200 nm out of HK for 24 hours in reasonable weather on a 60' yacht would be a fair assumption.

 

The EPIRB was triggered 60 nm south of that assumed position.

 

Clearwater Bay to Laoag is 428 nm

 

The EPIRB was triggered approximately 220 nm west of Laoag.

 

At noon on Friday the assumed position placed them 230 nm to the NW of the storm which was intensifying and tracking WNW.

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Thanks for this, I will have to check where the 2000hrs Thurs Oct 1 departure was mentioned.

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Nothing known about what brought the boat unstuck? Yes there was terrible weather but the severe part of a typhoon can be relatively contained to a smaller area. Was the boat simply overwhelmed or was there an issue such as collision or rig/rudder failure? So little known and so much conjecture.

 

We can match the typhoon track to their known positions, this has been covered earlier in the thread.

 

The yacht sailed straight into the most dangerous or 'unnavigable' side of the typhoon. They made no attempt to return to HK or, failing that, to get to the south and the 'navigable' side of the typhoon.

 

The location that the EPIRB was activated on Saturday evening was approximately 60 nm south of their position at the noon Friday Satelite phone call.

 

Five people are now presumed dead.

 

They were in communication with a shore based person who was Quote "looking out for them".

 

How could this happen?

 

 

It is of course foolish to sail close to a typhoon and on it's bad side.

 

If the yacht founded because of an essential piece of gear failing or because it was run down, I wonder how much of their demise is attributed to poor weather routing and how much to the other.

 

In Cheeki Rafiki's case it is firmly sheeted home to the keel failure even though they were in nasty weather.

 

In this case we can only focus on weather routing since we know nothing else.

 

 

So accepting what you say, are we to conclude that the "experienced captain and crew" were foolish? Or were they making their decisions based on information that they received after leaving HK?

 

Maybe not at all foolish given their information. Any level of foolishness is a moot point until we know what really happened.

 

Some would say `foolish' in the extreme because they're lost; but assumptions abound in this case.

 

Some would say foolish at a much lesser level if they knew the boat was coping but something failed in the structure or in the watch keeping (by being run down).

 

 

My point is this: We only know about a severe weather event and it is reasonable to assume this was a contributing cause, but ultimately we don't know if this was the simple cause in the boat being `overwhelmed' or whether something happened, that within the context of severe weather, had a cataclysmic result.

 

The '98 Hobart was survived by most crews, but there were a few who didn't survive. Mostly we blamed the boats and the crews' preparedness and the language of weather forecasts and their interpretation to a lesser extent.

 

It's not all… `the forecast'

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as for the boat. brand new, out of the box, no sea trail i suspect, done on the cheap i suspect. basic safety equipment, probably no rig cutting tools, OEM sails being a roller furling main and roller furling genoa. basic electronics package i suspect with chartplotter and the SatPhone that we all know about.

 

of the five crew, three i know were not in any physical shape to handle an emergency. just because you have experienced a crossing or two does not make you capable or competent to handle the situtaion they were in. and i suspect a certain amount of arrogance was involved. this i believe led to unwise decision to leave without waiting to see how this weather disturbance that they knew and discussed on wednesday would play out. i also believe that they did not know the quadrants of a typhoon and how to deal with them. as i suspect others do not know also.

 

in my best guess, this is the perfect brew for a disaster. the one good thing that did happen was they had someone at the other end to call. and Jerry in his interview led us to believe that the crew called in to say all is ok? that is it? nothing more? this was during a time frame that everyone here in manila knew that there was a named typhoon in the china sea headed to HK/Vietnam. and all is ok?

 

it is what jerry did not say that has me bothered. and the way it seems that he appointed himself the Search Leader also does not sit well with me. what was the motive for this? besides the world listening to jerry, did he do this out of quilt? i do not know. i am only guessing. but if i were in his shoe, i would make sure the crew knew the situation and get the hell out of there. head back to HK is first priority. and that is information i could freely volunter in the interview.

 

and what about after that call? were there any atempts to try and call them with updates? for me, it is the silence that is not sitting right with me. and this is leaving a nasty taste in my mouth. i hope my fears are wrong, but it seems that we are not meant to know the truth. or are we, the sailing community not allowed to know the truth?

You suspect and guess a fricken lot.

 

How about getting facts?

 

I suspect you are a shite agent for a shite sail making company doing neither yourself or UK any favours by spouting off shit in this thread.

 

Actually those are closer to facts than you have presented about this loss.

 

you are right. i have to guess and suspect a lot as there is really not a lot informaiton forth coming. as for being a shite agent for a shite sail making company? oh that hurts me!! NOT. what i am trying to do is get people to think and not just take on face value what is spoon fed to us. which i now see as an excercise in futility. especially with all the jerry lovers out there running interference. have a good day.

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rainbow and i just talked about this and have come to the conclusion that Jerry is not responsible. he is never reponsible. so all we can do is send out our condolences to the family of the crew. i hope they can find closure and have peace in thier lives.

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At the end of the day the responsibility for boat and crew lies with the skipper!

 

Even if none of it is his fault, or acting on miss-information, reading circumstances wrong/or not, making right decisions that get interfered with by acts of god etc.

 

There is a big difference between FAULT and RESPONSIBILITY. If you're the one in charge, you're responsible, any fault gets burdened on you even if someone else has actually faltered.

 

Many modern skippers are yet to understand that part of their role me thinks?!

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So George that thought finally crossed your mind ......must have been a long and lonely journey.

 

rainbow and i just talked about this and have come to the conclusion that Jerry is not responsible. he is never reponsible. so all we can do is send out our condolences to the family of the crew. i hope they can find closure and have peace in thier lives.

 

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These poor buggers perished because the skipper failed to adhere to the four (4) guiding principals behind safe seamanship, vessel and crew safety. They also underpin safety regulations for all ocean races over courses commensurate with this passage, as well as regulations enforced upon residents leaving some countries in a recreational vessel. NZ is one such country that comes to mind. They are things therefore that are well known and not hard to assess or measure.

 

They are:

 

1. Experience;

2. Vessel Seaworthiness/Passage Suitabily;

3. Safety Equipment/Communications; and

4. Selfish Sufficiency.

 

If he was experienced, then that was seriously diminished to simply ignore the other three factors.

 

A fatal overriding factor in many instances like this has been complacency and scheduling. In this case maybe a desire to get a spanking new and untested toy home asap so to enjoy it during the winter?

 

That dumb decision making has cost five lives and irretrievably effected the lives of many more.

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There seems to be two schools of thought here, firstly that the skipper (crew) were dumb for doing the trip. Gee thanks to the people supporting this concept. I mean we have no idea on the reasoning the left, although it can be assumed they didn't just decide to go out and sink the boat with them on it. We have no knowledge on what was discussed with the phone call, we have no knowledge on the final events, was it weather or was it boat failure, collision with an object. These things are seldom one event but are the build up of a number of small things, that by themselves would just be something to deal with. But that's all okay, we still have enough to brand the skipper dumb.

 

Then there are the tinfoil hat boys who feel that it is all to do with 'the phone call'. Let me state that I am not Jerry, and to my knowledge I have not met Jerry. However to drag other hatreds into this tragic set of circumstances takes a certain type of person that I would certainly not want to know and does nothing for their crusade.

 

Of course then there is the strident call of we need to know what was discussed, both before and during the tragedy. No we don't and any demand should be treated with derision. If it was to be found that there was a build failure in the vessel, then yes you could justify the right to publish the results. But this was a combination of misjudgment and boat failure due to either internal or external causes. The family deserve to have access to what information is available, but us, what gives us the right to demand personal conversations so we can decide from comfy armchairs who we should face a public inquisition and then be burnt at the stake.

 

These five men deserve to be remembered for who they were. They all had families that loved them and will miss them. They made a judgement call that turned out to be the wrong one for some reason that we are unlikely to ever know. Their memories do not need to be sullied by people here calling them dumb and idiots for what happened. Yes they screwed up, but then again so have I, I was just fortunate that the results weren't fatal. As for dragging the history of Jerry into this event, that is something that should be called much worse than dunb.

 

To the missing five, I salute you. May you live on in the memories of those that loved and respected you. The rest can just fuck off.

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Sorry slightly updated. the EPIRB was activated at 3rd October 2023hrs UTC

 

I have tried to put the info available on a google map of the SCS to try and get a clearer picture.

If the EPIRB position is correct what happened in the 40? hours between the assumed noon Oct 2 position and the EPIRB Signal at approx 0400hrs Oct 4??

Did they continue and then do a 180?? A lot of questions and probably no answers unless wreckage is discovered.

post-52142-0-58229400-1444880155_thumb.jpg

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There seems to be two schools of thought here, firstly that the skipper (crew) were dumb for doing the trip. Gee thanks to the people supporting this concept. I mean we have no idea on the reasoning the left, although it can be assumed they didn't just decide to go out and sink the boat with them on it. We have no knowledge on what was discussed with the phone call, we have no knowledge on the final events, was it weather or was it boat failure, collision with an object. These things are seldom one event but are the build up of a number of small things, that by themselves would just be something to deal with. But that's all okay, we still have enough to brand the skipper dumb.

 

Then there are the tinfoil hat boys who feel that it is all to do with 'the phone call'. Let me state that I am not Jerry, and to my knowledge I have not met Jerry. However to drag other hatreds into this tragic set of circumstances takes a certain type of person that I would certainly not want to know and does nothing for their crusade.

 

Of course then there is the strident call of we need to know what was discussed, both before and during the tragedy. No we don't and any demand should be treated with derision. If it was to be found that there was a build failure in the vessel, then yes you could justify the right to publish the results. But this was a combination of misjudgment and boat failure due to either internal or external causes. The family deserve to have access to what information is available, but us, what gives us the right to demand personal conversations so we can decide from comfy armchairs who we should face a public inquisition and then be burnt at the stake.

 

These five men deserve to be remembered for who they were. They all had families that loved them and will miss them. They made a judgement call that turned out to be the wrong one for some reason that we are unlikely to ever know. Their memories do not need to be sullied by people here calling them dumb and idiots for what happened. Yes they screwed up, but then again so have I, I was just fortunate that the results weren't fatal. As for dragging the history of Jerry into this event, that is something that should be called much worse than dunb.

 

To the missing five, I salute you. May you live on in the memories of those that loved and respected you. The rest can just fuck off.

 

 

Giss on quick face value many might agree with your heartfelt sentiments, however the purpose of this thread is to discuss, argue and maybe even entertain, but above all hopefully learn from shit events like this. it is not for condolences purposes. If you want to do that, go and start an approriate thread.

 

As for berating the capacity and knoweledge of contributers and having no regard for the time they put in to try and educate numbskulls like you, leave that to someone of their equal, because your clearly berefit of even the very basics.

 

Some may be off the planet...who cares, someone will set them straight. So stick around and ask questions if you like, you may even learn something.

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I have not berated the capacity or knowledge of the few posters. I have wondered about why people are trying to second guess an event that, without the miraculous survival of one or more of the crew, will continue to be a game of what ifs. We know that the skipper had what he considered a valid scenario on how it would pan out when the vessel left. The fact that it was incorrect does not change the fact that he believed in his prognoses. After that we have nothing apart from conjecture. For all we know the weather was just the final part and the "who would ever cross an ocean on a beney" broke apart when the wind was only 20 knots, or perhaps they hit an object that caused the boat to sink. We do not and are unlikely to ever know what the sequence of events were.

 

If you want to educate me then try some facts. As an example, using the weather situation that occurred, when was the latest they should have left. Base you prediction on the weather forecast available, not looking back knowing what it did. For a more real life concept there is a system ramping up at this point. The HK Vietnam race is starting today, should they go. Educate me with your fount of knowledge why they should or shouldn't go. If I was looking at going to the Philippines on Friday afternoon would it be safe or not. Please give some details of why, not just it would be a dumb idea. As for my being a numbskull, maybe certainly been called worse, but then again you seem to be happy to berate me and my experience while incorrectly calling me out for doing the same to others.

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In amongst all the abuse there are some people on this thread with some good information. I think Jack Sparrow is trying to describe the GMDSS (Global Maritime Distress Safety System) and is pointing out that Yellowbrick is not part of that system.

 

Looking at the Sea Area maps of the area the vessel was in Sea Area A3. I may be wrong but I doubt the vessel would have been GMDSS compliant most recreational vessels aren't. For A3 to be compliant you would have either INMARSAT and MF or HF(with DSC), VHF (with DSC), a navtex receiver and a 406 EPIRB, a SART and handheld VHF (up to 3).

 

What it sounds like they had was an unregistered EPIRB (we don't know if it was a GPIRB or indeed could have been a PLB). An EPIRB position report using Doppler shift can take up to 3 hours, the battery life is typically 48 hours. An EPIRB is considered under GMDSS to be a secondary means of distress alerting. To those in the recreational world of sailing it is seen as the primary but to the emergency services it is secondary that is important to remember. This is because an EPIRB doesn't tell us how many persons are in distress, doesn't tell us whether they are still on their vessel (they might be in a liferaft) and it doesn't allow two way conversation. So the purpose of an EPIRB or GPIRB is as a secondary means of distress alerting and to provide position information for survivors during SAR ops.

 

So what is your primary means of distress alerting? HF, VHF DSC following by a voice mayday call.

 

To the person who said who listens to HF radio it is a requirement for all vessels fitted with HF to maintain a listening watch on 8414.5kHz in reality we know that doesn't necessary happen however, you can't ignore the annoyingly loud DSC distress alert whether it is send on VHF, MF or HF.

 

What we don't know is if they had VHF with DSC with the MMSI programmed in and hooked up to a GPS it sounds like they didn't use it if they had it. I don't know how much shipping is generally in the area they were in but I am sure there is enough and if they had hit the distress button on the VHF certainly the commercial vessels in the area would have received an alert. Why didn't the MRCC use the AMVER system - probably because they didn't set off the DSC Distress Alert.

 

Sounds like they didn't have NAVTEX because if they did they would have been receiving Maritime Safety Information which would have told them about the impeding track of the weather system.

 

I personally would never rely on a Yellowbrick and I have done a lot of racing with them but yes I would for sure abandon ship with it if I had time but I would take my satellite phone in a waterproof case over the yellowbrick if I could only grab one item AFTER I grabbed my GPRIB, SART and my handheld VHF with DSC.

 

My two cents worth - sorry for the ramble...

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..... The rest can just fuck off.

You say you have not berated the capacity or knowledge of a "few" posters. Correct... you got "all" not a "few" of them with that farewell spray above.

 

If you want to use the Vietnam Race as an example then how many participants do you think are starting about now with:

 

Not the required number of persons with Cat 1 Race experience, Sea Safety Survival, First Aid and Radio Operators Certificates? Answer None.

How many with no general construction and seaworthy assessment inc stability clearance? Answer None.

How many have not had a Vessel and Equipment Cat 1 Saftey Sign-off? Answer None.

How many don't have the independent means to obtain direct weather forecasts and communicate long distances using HF radio Answer none.

How many don't have a satellite phone as backup. Answer none.

How many are relying on outside assistance for weather routing? Answer none.

How many don't have the required Safety gear both for the vessel and personel including PLB's? Answer None.

How many haven't checked the forecast weather over their planned route for the duration of the race? Answer none.

Has the RC allowed the race to start without checking the weather and all warnings for the duration of and in the vicinity of the race course? Answer No.

Will anyone not be making scheduled position reports using the approved HF means of long range communication. Answer No.

 

I hope you can detect a pattern when making comparison between the above and the planning, preparation and execution of the fatal passage?

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PS. Gissie I weather-route for a living but have neither the time or inclination to properly answer your weather question, unless of course you want to pay my normal fee :-)

 

More to the point others have provided here already what appears to be a accurate synoposis of what was available when they left HK and would have experienced enroute both in real time and as forecast. Cheers.

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Amperrin, agree with what you say and Jack was pointing out at the beginnimg. There have been big changes iver.the years on how sar is undertaken. Without the red button somewhere do not expect to much effort to be put in. Plus anyone that thinks a yellow brick is a good substitute also should not expect to much. There is some education in this that some.sailors need to brush up on.

 

Where I have a problem.is with no idea of what went wrong the skipper is beong pilloried. We are unlikely to ever know what happened but it is unlikely to jist be the weather. The vessel may have had the same problems without the extreme weather and gone down. We will never know. They may be a bit of a caravan but I don't see why a 60 ft beney couldn't survive these conditions. So there was certainly something else. To have people then just band the.skipper dumb for not forseeing all to coming events is what I have a problem with.

 

So I wiill now bow out as the last thing I wish to do is give legs to a thread that seens to spend time looking back at what happened and going 'man I wouldn't have done that, dumb bastards should have.known.better'.

 

Cheers to all and safe sailing.

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Gissie for arguments sake lets ignore the weather, ignore that it was new untested beachball, ignore what preparation may have been done pre-voyage including areas of self sufficiency to deal with or at least stem the impacts of breakages and emegencies.

 

That all aside lets say they hit a container on a beautiful Sth China Sea's day and started to founder.

 

Simple question is did they have a regular and pre-arranged reporting schedule combined with a suitable communications platform (with redundancy) on board and in the life raft to immediately signal their distress before hitting that life raft, and then maintain it? ...Yes OR No?

 

The reason I take the view the Skipper is at fault and no one else, is because the answer appears to be a resounding "no".

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hi me again,

Is there any possibility that the EPIRB was activated on Oct 2 at 2000hrs UTC ie 0400hrs Oct 3 and not 2000hrs UTC Oct 3.

Given the positions this would make more logical sense?

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Gissie for arguments sake lets ignore the weather, ignore that it was new untested beachball, ignore what preparation may have been done pre-voyage including areas of self sufficiency to deal with or at least stem the impacts of breakages and emegencies.

 

That all aside lets say they hit a container on a beautiful Sth China Sea's day and started to founder.

 

Simple question is did they have a regular and pre-arranged reporting schedule combined with a suitable communications platform (with redundancy) on board and in the life raft to immediately signal their distress before hitting that life raft, and then maintain it? ...Yes OR No?

 

The reason I take the view the Skipper is at fault and no one else, is because the answer appears to be a resounding "no".

are you saying 2 waterproof sat phones along with the epirb?

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In amongst all the abuse there are some people on this thread with some good information. I think Jack Sparrow is trying to describe the GMDSS (Global Maritime Distress Safety System) and is pointing out that Yellowbrick is not part of that system.

 

Looking at the Sea Area maps of the area the vessel was in Sea Area A3. I may be wrong but I doubt the vessel would have been GMDSS compliant most recreational vessels aren't. For A3 to be compliant you would have either INMARSAT and MF or HF(with DSC), VHF (with DSC), a navtex receiver and a 406 EPIRB, a SART and handheld VHF (up to 3).

 

What it sounds like they had was an unregistered EPIRB (we don't know if it was a GPIRB or indeed could have been a PLB). An EPIRB position report using Doppler shift can take up to 3 hours, the battery life is typically 48 hours. An EPIRB is considered under GMDSS to be a secondary means of distress alerting. To those in the recreational world of sailing it is seen as the primary but to the emergency services it is secondary that is important to remember. This is because an EPIRB doesn't tell us how many persons are in distress, doesn't tell us whether they are still on their vessel (they might be in a liferaft) and it doesn't allow two way conversation. So the purpose of an EPIRB or GPIRB is as a secondary means of distress alerting and to provide position information for survivors during SAR ops.

 

So what is your primary means of distress alerting? HF, VHF DSC following by a voice mayday call.

 

To the person who said who listens to HF radio it is a requirement for all vessels fitted with HF to maintain a listening watch on 8414.5kHz in reality we know that doesn't necessary happen however, you can't ignore the annoyingly loud DSC distress alert whether it is send on VHF, MF or HF.

 

What we don't know is if they had VHF with DSC with the MMSI programmed in and hooked up to a GPS it sounds like they didn't use it if they had it. I don't know how much shipping is generally in the area they were in but I am sure there is enough and if they had hit the distress button on the VHF certainly the commercial vessels in the area would have received an alert. Why didn't the MRCC use the AMVER system - probably because they didn't set off the DSC Distress Alert.

 

Sounds like they didn't have NAVTEX because if they did they would have been receiving Maritime Safety Information which would have told them about the impeding track of the weather system.

 

I personally would never rely on a Yellowbrick and I have done a lot of racing with them but yes I would for sure abandon ship with it if I had time but I would take my satellite phone in a waterproof case over the yellowbrick if I could only grab one item AFTER I grabbed my GPRIB, SART and my handheld VHF with DSC.

 

My two cents worth - sorry for the ramble...

PS HF DSC does not work very well and for sure will be removed from GMDSS requirements at the next update.

all the HF radio issues are the problem hence whats the correct action when you receive a DSC distress, nothing you wait till the shore station replies.

How can you know they received it on shore, you cant

How do you know the shore station is not already communicating with distressed vessel, you cant

your close by but signal skips over you, bad luck caller

etc etc

I like the 2 sat phones ( can download with them) on 2 different networks, rent them and bin the HF unless you have mates to talk to

For sure when boat rolled, flooded inside your HF will not work and you leave it behind when you get into the lifefraft

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In amongst all the abuse there are some people on this thread with some good information. I think Jack Sparrow is trying to describe the GMDSS (Global Maritime Distress Safety System) and is pointing out that Yellowbrick is not part of that system.

 

Looking at the Sea Area maps of the area the vessel was in Sea Area A3. I may be wrong but I doubt the vessel would have been GMDSS compliant most recreational vessels aren't. For A3 to be compliant you would have either INMARSAT and MF or HF(with DSC), VHF (with DSC), a navtex receiver and a 406 EPIRB, a SART and handheld VHF (up to 3).

 

What it sounds like they had was an unregistered EPIRB (we don't know if it was a GPIRB or indeed could have been a PLB). An EPIRB position report using Doppler shift can take up to 3 hours, the battery life is typically 48 hours. An EPIRB is considered under GMDSS to be a secondary means of distress alerting. To those in the recreational world of sailing it is seen as the primary but to the emergency services it is secondary that is important to remember. This is because an EPIRB doesn't tell us how many persons are in distress, doesn't tell us whether they are still on their vessel (they might be in a liferaft) and it doesn't allow two way conversation. So the purpose of an EPIRB or GPIRB is as a secondary means of distress alerting and to provide position information for survivors during SAR ops.

 

So what is your primary means of distress alerting? HF, VHF DSC following by a voice mayday call.

 

To the person who said who listens to HF radio it is a requirement for all vessels fitted with HF to maintain a listening watch on 8414.5kHz in reality we know that doesn't necessary happen however, you can't ignore the annoyingly loud DSC distress alert whether it is send on VHF, MF or HF.

 

What we don't know is if they had VHF with DSC with the MMSI programmed in and hooked up to a GPS it sounds like they didn't use it if they had it. I don't know how much shipping is generally in the area they were in but I am sure there is enough and if they had hit the distress button on the VHF certainly the commercial vessels in the area would have received an alert. Why didn't the MRCC use the AMVER system - probably because they didn't set off the DSC Distress Alert.

 

Sounds like they didn't have NAVTEX because if they did they would have been receiving Maritime Safety Information which would have told them about the impeding track of the weather system.

 

I personally would never rely on a Yellowbrick and I have done a lot of racing with them but yes I would for sure abandon ship with it if I had time but I would take my satellite phone in a waterproof case over the yellowbrick if I could only grab one item AFTER I grabbed my GPRIB, SART and my handheld VHF with DSC.

 

My two cents worth - sorry for the ramble...

 

PS HF DSC does not work very well and for sure will be removed from GMDSS requirements at the next update.

all the HF radio issues are the problem hence whats the correct action when you receive a DSC distress, nothing you wait till the shore station replies.

How can you know they received it on shore, you cant

How do you know the shore station is not already communicating with distressed vessel, you cant

your close by but signal skips over you, bad luck caller

etc etc

I like the 2 sat phones ( can download with them) on 2 different networks, rent them and bin the HF unless you have mates to talk to

For sure when boat rolled, flooded inside your HF will not work and you leave it behind when you get into the lifefraft

Sailabout unfortunately you don't know much about DSC HF. When it is correctly installed and used your programed digital distress signal along with your vessel details and exact position is first automatically sent on a DSC Distress Frequencies and is repeatadly sent until it is received somewhere in the world. Unless you have a Inmarsat-C satellite setup, DSC distress transmission takes the push of one button.

 

When it is received a digital acknowledgment is then transmiied to your transciever. Ships in your area are also notified. Your transciever will then notify you of this DSC acknowlgement and you then revert to the appropriate distress voice frequency to transmit further details about your distress situation and recieve further instructions.

 

Receipt and acknowledgement is not just restricted to authorities. Radio operators of vessels whose equipement detects your DSC distress signal have priority protocols governing their response role, little different to them recieving distress voice alert. If an EPIRB has been deployed both signals will be tracked concurrently by the receiving authority or the one whose surveillance area you are in.

 

Because your vessel has a station specific identity you can be further contacted via a station specific DSC alert, just like a phone, not just relying on voice transmission alerts.

 

You can be forgiven for not knowing this as not many people are and many vessels don't have a second DSC antenna, essential for DSC to operate. Similiary most problems wjth HF are operator error and or poor instalations.

 

As for its removal you will find that not the case, but in fact DSC becoming mandatory for both VHF and HF in Cat 1 races, if not already in some. Don't confuse merchant shipping requirements and DSC, because there is none. They will recieve their instructions via Inmarsat-C satellite, little differently to DSC HF.

 

You will also see I mentioned "redundancy". There should be no reliance on just one communication platform. Sat phones are essential to this role and mandatory as backup for some Cat 1 races to supplement HF.

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I have not berated the capacity or knowledge of the few posters. I have wondered about why people are trying to second guess an event that, without the miraculous survival of one or more of the crew, will continue to be a game of what ifs. We know that the skipper had what he considered a valid scenario on how it would pan out when the vessel left. The fact that it was incorrect does not change the fact that he believed in his prognoses. After that we have nothing apart from conjecture. For all we know the weather was just the final part and the "who would ever cross an ocean on a beney" broke apart when the wind was only 20 knots, or perhaps they hit an object that caused the boat to sink. We do not and are unlikely to ever know what the sequence of events were.

 

If you want to educate me then try some facts. As an example, using the weather situation that occurred, when was the latest they should have left. Base you prediction on the weather forecast available, not looking back knowing what it did. For a more real life concept there is a system ramping up at this point. The HK Vietnam race is starting today, should they go. Educate me with your fount of knowledge why they should or shouldn't go. If I was looking at going to the Philippines on Friday afternoon would it be safe or not. Please give some details of why, not just it would be a dumb idea. As for my being a numbskull, maybe certainly been called worse, but then again you seem to be happy to berate me and my experience while incorrectly calling me out for doing the same to others.

 

I was not going to post anymore on this but now feel compelled to point out once again;

 

1. I was fully aware of the weather forecast available at the time.

 

As I posted earlier, I was planning to bring my own yacht from Subic to Manila over the weekend of 3-4 October, I was therefore looking at the weather during the week prior.

 

The storm was forecast as early as Tuesday Sept. 29 to cross Luzon into the China Sea and to intensify into a typhoon. I monitored this through Thursday and went down to my yacht on Friday morning when the storm was crossing Luzon. My wind instrument was measuring gusts to 35 knots inside the SBYC Marina at noon on Friday.

 

On Saturday the storm continued to track WNW and intensify.

 

I left Subic for Manila on Sunday Oct. 4.

 

I was informed of the fact that a yacht was missing enroute to Subic and the names of the people onboard on the morning of Tuesday Oct. 6

 

I first met Robin Wyatt more than twenty years ago and I would judge him to be a competent skipper.

 

The fact that he left HK on the morning of October 1 knowing full well that there was a storm that may affect the China Sea leads me to conclude that he and his crew must have planned to check the weather enroute.

 

It is for that reason and that reason alone that I have repeatedly stated that we must find out what was communicated during that phone call at noon on Friday October 2.

 

In the YouTube interview, Jerry Rollin makes no mention of any discussion of the weather or the imminent danger facing the yacht at that time.

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Amperrin, agree with what you say and Jack was pointing out at the beginnimg. There have been big changes iver.the years on how sar is undertaken. Without the red button somewhere do not expect to much effort to be put in. Plus anyone that thinks a yellow brick is a good substitute also should not expect to much. There is some education in this that some.sailors need to brush up on.

 

 

 

I believe I'm the only person that put forward the Yellow Brick.

 

I stated that it is an addition to, not a replacement for the EPIRB or indeed any other equipment.

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I am personally still trying to ascertain for how long was the epirb active? (Signal Sending). Can anyone answer that?

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48 hours someone said, or around the life of its battery

 

I am personally still trying to ascertain for how long was the epirb active? (Signal Sending). Can anyone answer that?

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In amongst all the abuse there are some people on this thread with some good information. I think Jack Sparrow is trying to describe the GMDSS (Global Maritime Distress Safety System) and is pointing out that Yellowbrick is not part of that system.

 

Looking at the Sea Area maps of the area the vessel was in Sea Area A3. I may be wrong but I doubt the vessel would have been GMDSS compliant most recreational vessels aren't. For A3 to be compliant you would have either INMARSAT and MF or HF(with DSC), VHF (with DSC), a navtex receiver and a 406 EPIRB, a SART and handheld VHF (up to 3).

 

What it sounds like they had was an unregistered EPIRB (we don't know if it was a GPIRB or indeed could have been a PLB). An EPIRB position report using Doppler shift can take up to 3 hours, the battery life is typically 48 hours. An EPIRB is considered under GMDSS to be a secondary means of distress alerting. To those in the recreational world of sailing it is seen as the primary but to the emergency services it is secondary that is important to remember. This is because an EPIRB doesn't tell us how many persons are in distress, doesn't tell us whether they are still on their vessel (they might be in a liferaft) and it doesn't allow two way conversation. So the purpose of an EPIRB or GPIRB is as a secondary means of distress alerting and to provide position information for survivors during SAR ops.

 

So what is your primary means of distress alerting? HF, VHF DSC following by a voice mayday call.

 

To the person who said who listens to HF radio it is a requirement for all vessels fitted with HF to maintain a listening watch on 8414.5kHz in reality we know that doesn't necessary happen however, you can't ignore the annoyingly loud DSC distress alert whether it is send on VHF, MF or HF.

 

What we don't know is if they had VHF with DSC with the MMSI programmed in and hooked up to a GPS it sounds like they didn't use it if they had it. I don't know how much shipping is generally in the area they were in but I am sure there is enough and if they had hit the distress button on the VHF certainly the commercial vessels in the area would have received an alert. Why didn't the MRCC use the AMVER system - probably because they didn't set off the DSC Distress Alert.

 

Sounds like they didn't have NAVTEX because if they did they would have been receiving Maritime Safety Information which would have told them about the impeding track of the weather system.

 

I personally would never rely on a Yellowbrick and I have done a lot of racing with them but yes I would for sure abandon ship with it if I had time but I would take my satellite phone in a waterproof case over the yellowbrick if I could only grab one item AFTER I grabbed my GPRIB, SART and my handheld VHF with DSC.

 

My two cents worth - sorry for the ramble...

PS HF DSC does not work very well and for sure will be removed from GMDSS requirements at the next update.

all the HF radio issues are the problem hence whats the correct action when you receive a DSC distress, nothing you wait till the shore station replies.

How can you know they received it on shore, you cant

How do you know the shore station is not already communicating with distressed vessel, you cant

your close by but signal skips over you, bad luck caller

etc etc

I like the 2 sat phones ( can download with them) on 2 different networks, rent them and bin the HF unless you have mates to talk to

For sure when boat rolled, flooded inside your HF will not work and you leave it behind when you get into the lifefraft

Sailabout unfortunately you don't know much about DSC HF. When it is correctly installed and used your programed digital distress signal along with your vessel details and exact position is first automatically sent on a DSC Distress Frequencies and is repeatadly sent until it is received somewhere in the world. Unless you have a Inmarsat-C satellite setup, DSC distress transmission takes the push of one button.

 

When it is received a digital acknowledgment is then transmiied to your transciever. Ships in your area are also notified. Your transciever will then notify you of this DSC acknowlgement and you then revert to the appropriate distress voice frequency to transmit further details about your distress situation and recieve further instructions.

 

Receipt and acknowledgement is not just restricted to authorities. Radio operators of vessels whose equipement detects your DSC distress signal have priority protocols governing their response role, little different to them recieving distress voice alert. If an EPIRB has been deployed both signals will be tracked concurrently by the receiving authority or the one whose surveillance area you are in.

 

Because your vessel has a station specific identity you can be further contacted via a station specific DSC alert, just like a phone, not just relying on voice transmission alerts.

 

You can be forgiven for not knowing this as not many people are and many vessels don't have a second DSC antenna, essential for DSC to operate. Similiary most problems wjth HF are operator error and or poor instalations.

 

As for its removal you will find that not the case, but in fact DSC becoming mandatory for both VHF and HF in Cat 1 races, if not already in some. Don't confuse merchant shipping requirements and DSC, because there is none. They will recieve their instructions via Inmarsat-C satellite, little differently to DSC HF.

 

You will also see I mentioned "redundancy". There should be no reliance on just one communication platform. Sat phones are essential to this role and mandatory as backup for some Cat 1 races to supplement HF.

 

well you seem to not know GMDSS requirements as all gmdss required vessels have DSC on VHF and HF

so on a commercial vessel we have 3 red buttons plus LRIT

all designed and paid for to support merchant shipping, just lucky pleasure craft can use it as well.

From day 1 of HF DSC it was viewed as a failure compared to the rest for the reasons I mentioned.

According to the brochure it does work and it does technically but I would have a sat phone before HF DSC if that was a planned emergency system because you are NOT guaranteed you will be received.

HF receiving is disappearing world wide not expanding, try calling a coast station ( if you can find one) or sending a DSC test, good luck with that.

I'm not saying non response to a test means not listening but make your own conclusions.

Its only been around for 20 years so maybe it will get better, but I'll take a bet it wont.

( OK and yes i know DSC technology was aroun