DDW

Looking forward to the invention of cleats in Canada

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I did find a bit of sanity in the wilderness. Echo Bay has - guess what - cleats on all their docks! Soooo easy to tie off and adjust.

 

We have asked several wharfingers now exactly how you are supposed to tie to bullrails. Usual explanation is some variation on a clove hitch backed up by a half hitch or two. No one has an answer as to how you sweat that in a few inches. The cleanest version requires taking the whole length of line around the bull rail and then finishing the clove with a loop, and half hitching the loop. None of these works very well on an angled line like a spring. The fastest I have seen those in the business do it is about 4 times slower than a cleat hitch by a clumsy beginner. There was a girl on the dock at Van Isle that could lasso two turns on a cleat in about 2 seconds, and looked good - I mean really good - doing it.

 

Here in Kwatsi Bay, the owner has cleats on some of the docks and said he can't wait to replace all the bull rails with cleats.

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I did find a bit of sanity in the wilderness. Echo Bay has - guess what - cleats on all their docks! Soooo easy to tie off and adjust.

 

We have asked several wharfingers now exactly how you are supposed to tie to bullrails. Usual explanation is some variation on a clove hitch backed up by a half hitch or two. No one has an answer as to how you sweat that in a few inches. The cleanest version requires taking the whole length of line around the bull rail and then finishing the clove with a loop, and half hitching the loop. None of these works very well on an angled line like a spring. The fastest I have seen those in the business do it is about 4 times slower than a cleat hitch by a clumsy beginner. There was a girl on the dock at Van Isle that could lasso two turns on a cleat in about 2 seconds, and looked good - I mean really good - doing it.

 

Here in Kwatsi Bay, the owner has cleats on some of the docks and said he can't wait to replace all the bull rails with cleats.

For a spring line I think you'd need something akin to a trucker's hitch.

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Alert Bay has cleats. At least one, anyhow. You'll be needing a long spring line for that.

 

alert%2Bbay.jpg

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Even at that distance, I have a better chance of lassoing the cleat than the bull rail.....

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Not denying the usefulness of cleats, it looks like I will be the sole defender of the rail !!

Having sailed in this region for 25+ yrs, and sailed around Vancouver Island five times, I think I have docked at most popular docks, and quite a few remote ones. I have been lucky I suppose, to have never been splinter bitten by the wooden rails, and like the round metal rails seen at many commercial docks, gas docks, and government docks. In docking, I can't recall wishing there was a cleat to lassoo because I came in fast enough that I needed to use it to brake.

 

Assuming that most people approach the dock slow enough that you can step off onto the dock calmly with a line in hand, the rails give a lot of flexibility in where you position yourself. On this coast in particular, there are lots of places that harbour commercial fishing boats of varying sizes, in addition to the apparently rail-challenged leisure boat users :P

 

The rails offer flexibility to tie up where there's an opening, flexibility to tie up without getting in amongst another boat's lines, and the freedom to leave without messing with other boaters' lines that invariably trap yours when you're limited to sharing cleats. When we've had to raft up as we frequently do during the Van Isle Race, or other events with many competitors, the rails have really demonstrated these positive aspects.

 

So in the immortal words of Ronnie Johns, HTFU everyone LOL

 

This!^^^

 

Cleats for my slip at the marina. Rails everywhere else for all the reasons WHL said.

 

I learned to HTFU as a kid on commercial fishing boats. Jump off, whip out a clove hitch or loop the line under and over and back to the boat's cleat for easy getaways. Cleats are not practical to accommodate boats of varying sizes. Imagine placing parking meters for curbside parking of vehicles ranging from tractor/trailer rigs down to Smart cars. It just doesn't work unless you place cleats every 5 feet. Talk about tripping hazards!

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For several days, I was digging the treated wood splinters out of my hands after a particularly nasty one up the west coast. Lines full of little splinters, when you try to handle them you clean the splinters off with your hands. If everyone used teak or maple rails (or some other reasonably splinter free wood) then part of the problem would be gone - but they all use pressure treated wood, very splintery and the splinters immediately cause irritation and infection. I wonder if they could be outlawed as a health hazard?

 

This is simply a bad system. On many of the docks I asked the wharfinger "why?" and found no one that would defend them. Several said "well that's what we do around here but I wish we had cleats instead".

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If they would at least run a router over the corners to round them thoroughly the splinter problem would be greatly reduced as would line chafe.

 

Would take about 1 minute for every yard of dock.

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Don't any of those people believe in spring lines? Would have saved a lot of damage.

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Looks to me like they docked it with the pointy end.

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For several days, I was digging the treated wood splinters out of my hands after a particularly nasty one up the west coast. Lines full of little splinters, when you try to handle them you clean the splinters off with your hands. If everyone used teak or maple rails (or some other reasonably splinter free wood) then part of the problem would be gone - but they all use pressure treated wood, very splintery and the splinters immediately cause irritation and infection. I wonder if they could be outlawed as a health hazard?

 

This is simply a bad system. On many of the docks I asked the wharfinger "why?" and found no one that would defend them. Several said "well that's what we do around here but I wish we had cleats instead".

 

What kinds of line are you using?

 

I've been using wooden bull rails for nearly 50 years, from little marinas and big commercial fishing docks in Alaska to dinghy docks and fuel docks in Southern California. I have never had a problem with splinters in lines. I've used nylon 3-strand from 7/16 to 2" and nylon double braid from 7/16 to 3/4". New double braid can be snaggy, but not after some use.

 

When I get my first splinter, I'll start wearing gloves.

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Don't any of those people believe in spring lines? Would have saved a lot of damage.

 

I always use spring lines, plus a perpendicular stern spring, because my boat barely fits into its assigned slip. Even still, there's a little spot where they've swapped paint a few times on high-wind days, before I added that stern spring line.

Almost nobody else uses springs, as far as I've noticed. And yeah, there have been a couple of damaged boats and docks this summer. Still doesn't seem to be catching on.

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For several days, I was digging the treated wood splinters out of my hands after a particularly nasty one up the west coast. Lines full of little splinters, when you try to handle them you clean the splinters off with your hands. If everyone used teak or maple rails (or some other reasonably splinter free wood) then part of the problem would be gone - but they all use pressure treated wood, very splintery and the splinters immediately cause irritation and infection. I wonder if they could be outlawed as a health hazard?

 

This is simply a bad system. On many of the docks I asked the wharfinger "why?" and found no one that would defend them. Several said "well that's what we do around here but I wish we had cleats instead".

 

What kinds of line are you using?

 

I've been using wooden bull rails for nearly 50 years, from little marinas and big commercial fishing docks in Alaska to dinghy docks and fuel docks in Southern California. I have never had a problem with splinters in lines. I've used nylon 3-strand from 7/16 to 2" and nylon double braid from 7/16 to 3/4". New double braid can be snaggy, but not after some use.

 

When I get my first splinter, I'll start wearing gloves.

 

 

 

You are one fortunate fellow! Splinters? Yup, all the time with a bull rail--Canadian splinters and American ones, they are equal opportunity piercers...!

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For several days, I was digging the treated wood splinters out of my hands after a particularly nasty one up the west coast. Lines full of little splinters, when you try to handle them you clean the splinters off with your hands. If everyone used teak or maple rails (or some other reasonably splinter free wood) then part of the problem would be gone - but they all use pressure treated wood, very splintery and the splinters immediately cause irritation and infection. I wonder if they could be outlawed as a health hazard?

 

This is simply a bad system. On many of the docks I asked the wharfinger "why?" and found no one that would defend them. Several said "well that's what we do around here but I wish we had cleats instead".

 

What kinds of line are you using?

 

I've been using wooden bull rails for nearly 50 years, from little marinas and big commercial fishing docks in Alaska to dinghy docks and fuel docks in Southern California. I have never had a problem with splinters in lines. I've used nylon 3-strand from 7/16 to 2" and nylon double braid from 7/16 to 3/4". New double braid can be snaggy, but not after some use.

 

When I get my first splinter, I'll start wearing gloves.

 

 

 

You are one fortunate fellow! Splinters? Yup, all the time with a bull rail--Canadian splinters and American ones, they are equal opportunity piercers...!

 

 

Maybe I should stop whining about little shit and count my blessings! I've been lucky with a lot of stuff, but I didn't put this on the list before today.

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Don't any of those people believe in spring lines? Would have saved a lot of damage.

 

I always use spring lines, plus a perpendicular stern spring, because my boat barely fits into its assigned slip. Even still, there's a little spot where they've swapped paint a few times on high-wind days, before I added that stern spring line.

Almost nobody else uses springs, as far as I've noticed. And yeah, there have been a couple of damaged boats and docks this summer. Still doesn't seem to be catching on.

 

 

Ugh, I hear you on the "barely fit" issue. The company that rebuilt our boat dock mis-read the measurements and put the pilings progressively closer together.

As a result, the deepest slips which are meant for the largest boats are some of the narrowest. I fit between my pilings with 2-3 inches on either side. I have to butter her hips just to get in and out of my slip.

 

I *really* need to stop screwing around and nail up some carpet remnants to the insides of the pilings.

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Canada can't just switch over to metal cleats, we have to do it in phases..... :)

 

fotolia_2334788_XS.jpg

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What kinds of line are you using?

 

 

 

 

Standard 5/8 double braid. Older rails with some of the corners already scraped off on someone else's lines are better, some are worn nicely smooth. But most of the time it is a rough, nasty plank bristling with splinters. One particular time with newish rails, after (carefully) coiling the lines and tossing them in the cockpit I had to sweep the cockpit out, so many splinters were shed from the lines.

 

I still don't get it. With as much effort and as many bolts, you can have redundant cleats all the way down the dock. Like they use in the rest of the world. In my informal pole of yachtsman and wharfingers, I would say sentiment was running about 50:1 against them.

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What kinds of line are you using?

 

 

 

 

Standard 5/8 double braid. Older rails with some of the corners already scraped off on someone else's lines are better, some are worn nicely smooth. But most of the time it is a rough, nasty plank bristling with splinters. One particular time with newish rails, after (carefully) coiling the lines and tossing them in the cockpit I had to sweep the cockpit out, so many splinters were shed from the lines.

 

I still don't get it. With as much effort and as many bolts, you can have redundant cleats all the way down the dock. Like they use in the rest of the world. In my informal pole of yachtsman and wharfingers, I would say sentiment was running about 50:1 against them.

 

 

Maybe I've only encountered the ones that were polished clean by decades of lines before mine. Maybe I should thank you for that!

 

I insist on cleats for my slips, but I don't mind the bull rails on public docks.

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Washington State Parks are switching from wooden to steel bull rails as they update their docks.

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What want to know is why docks on Mac Island and in Michigan in general have 6" by 6" vertical posts (8 feet so so feet high sometimes) bolted to edge of dock? Its nearly fucking impossible to have your fenders (bumpers to you yanks) stay in place and coming in requires someone to flip the line over each one as you move in to place.

 

 

 

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No one but lubbers calls them bumpers, even in the US. They're fenders.

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That's "bumper thingies" to the people who don't know they're called fenders.

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Some women who I was teaching to crew called them 'muffins'. No point in arguing with them.

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Canada can't just switch over to metal cleats, we have to do it in phases..... :)

 

fotolia_2334788_XS.jpg

Looks like you've gotten to the 3rd stage,

 

"Bargaining"

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Maybe it is a power boat "term' but I know I hear bumpers instead of fenders all the time. But no matter the thingies are never used by powerboat "skippers". They never have them out when coming into tie up. I mean what the fuck? They have these terry cloth covered thingies in the those nice chrome circular holders up on the bow and they must think "I wonder why we look after then so well becausewe never use them". Meanwhile the wife has a bowline in hand (too short) that she throws at dock when too far away, panic ensues. She does this X amount of times until dock person has it then runs along 3" wide deck through cockpit to get (too short) stern line. Passersby see the cluster fuck and think "this guy has no fenders out he is going scratch the shit out his boat." And they hold boat off the dock and finally they get a thingy and put it out. Let me say it one more time "What the fuck!!!!"

 

Am I ranting ???

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I used to be that guy (sort of). I never had my lines and fenders rigged early enough and found myself rushing to dig everything out and get it in place. I'm better about it now.

Of course, in my own slip I have permanent lines and fenders rigged all the time.

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Maybe it is a power boat "term' but I know I hear bumpers instead of fenders all the time. But no matter the thingies are never used by powerboat "skippers". They never have them out when coming into tie up. I mean what the fuck? They have these terry cloth covered thingies in the those nice chrome circular holders up on the bow and they must think "I wonder why we look after then so well becausewe never use them". Meanwhile the wife has a bowline in hand (too short) that she throws at dock when too far away, panic ensues. She does this X amount of times until dock person has it then runs along 3" wide deck through cockpit to get (too short) stern line. Passersby see the cluster fuck and think "this guy has no fenders out he is going scratch the shit out his boat." And they hold boat off the dock and finally they get a thingy and put it out. Let me say it one more time "What the fuck!!!!"

 

Am I ranting ???

I consider that entertainment.

 

It's almost as much fun as listening to the VHF when people try to get mooring assignments--and then watching them go sideways and start ramming other boats.

 

Although I am a sick fuck, I do hop in the dinghy and help them get straightened out.

 

I used to be that guy (sort of). I never had my lines and fenders rigged early enough and found myself rushing to dig everything out and get it in place. I'm better about it now.

Of course, in my own slip I have permanent lines and fenders rigged all the time.

 

I always take mine with me. You never know when you'll need them.

 

To me, "bumpers" are the things that go bump--like wayward boats. I use inflatable devices to "fend" them off.

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Maybe it is a power boat "term' but I know I hear bumpers instead of fenders all the time. But no matter the thingies are never used by powerboat "skippers". They never have them out when coming into tie up. I mean what the fuck? They have these terry cloth covered thingies in the those nice chrome circular holders up on the bow and they must think "I wonder why we look after then so well becausewe never use them".

 

Canadians are so backward! Here in SoCal powerboaters leave them dangling over the side while they motor out to sea blissfully unaware that others are watching them thinking "what a retard". That's the proper way to show your ignorance.

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Maybe it is a power boat "term' but I know I hear bumpers instead of fenders all the time. But no matter the thingies are never used by powerboat "skippers". They never have them out when coming into tie up. I mean what the fuck? They have these terry cloth covered thingies in the those nice chrome circular holders up on the bow and they must think "I wonder why we look after then so well becausewe never use them".

 

Canadians are so backward! Here in SoCal powerboaters leave them dangling over the side while they motor out to sea blissfully unaware that others are watching them thinking "what a retard". That's the proper way to show your ignorance.

 

 

So do many, I don't want to call them "sailors," but clueless people driving sailboats. I see them dragging fenders to Two Harbors all the time--and then I watch them ram other boats while trying to pick up a mooring. I have stories. Many many stories. My wife and I pour wine and watch the physical comedy that is So. Cal. boaters in the summer. Winter is different. Summer is the worst.

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Maybe it is a power boat "term' but I know I hear bumpers instead of fenders all the time. But no matter the thingies are never used by powerboat "skippers". They never have them out when coming into tie up. I mean what the fuck? They have these terry cloth covered thingies in the those nice chrome circular holders up on the bow and they must think "I wonder why we look after then so well becausewe never use them".

Canadians are so backward! Here in SoCal powerboaters leave them dangling over the side while they motor out to sea blissfully unaware that others are watching them thinking "what a retard". That's the proper way to show your ignorance.

Mmmm.....Del Rey racing stripes!

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Still looking forward to the invention of cleats in Canada.

Here is a line after a particularly nasty bull rail. Long lengths of all four dock lines looked like this. We have had to handle them with gloves for the last week. It would take hours to pick them out. 

 

Splinters.jpg

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If the lazy bastards who install them would just run a router along them with a roundover bit it would prevent that and they would last longer too. It would take about 4 seconds per foot to do it too.

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Until the invention of routers up North, I think three strand nylon docklines might be the ticket

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5 hours ago, DDW said:

Still looking forward to the invention of cleats in Canada.

Here is a line after a particularly nasty bull rail. Long lengths of all four dock lines looked like this. We have had to handle them with gloves for the last week. It would take hours to pick them out.

That's really nasty, DDW.

Has Brent Swain got the contract for dockline attachments in Canada? ;)

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Say what you want about BS, but if he had the contract at least they'd be made out of steel.

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Just to make things worse, some of the docks we visited had spruced things up with brown wood stain....

its a real bitch to get it out of the gel coat.

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It's probably because the bull rails are metric 

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1 hour ago, Elegua said:

the bull rails are metric 

Isn't metric an idea the French came up with? Like Citroens and talking through your nose?

I'm in Lund now, enjoying the view. Pretty much solid grey everywhere you look, and there is a grey dust on the deck every morning. Good thing we have radar and GPS.

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Tell me about it. I own a French built boat with 80% Metric fittings and Robertson fasteners. 

Grey dust? Is that from the fires? 

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1 hour ago, Al Paca said:

Wait till you get sliced bread, then you will be in the first world.

Entice'em like that and they'll be beggin' for all kinds of foreign aid from us.......

 

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Maybe an all-star concert...

Supporting the non-profit group Cleats for Canada.

Rush, Celine Dione, Neil Young, Gordon Lightfoot, April Wine, Guess Who........

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7 hours ago, DDW said:

Isn't metric an idea the French came up with? Like Citroens and talking through your nose?

I'm in Lund now, enjoying the view. Pretty much solid grey everywhere you look, and there is a grey dust on the deck every morning. Good thing we have radar and GPS.

Make sure you hit Nancy's Bakery, the cinnamon buns are amazing.

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17 minutes ago, Ishmael said:

Make sure you hit Nancy's Bakery, the cinnamon buns are amazing.

Are they shaped like cleats or something?:lol:

 

Bull rails have been declared culturally significant under the Trudeau government.

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6 minutes ago, Norse Horse said:
25 minutes ago, Ishmael said:

Make sure you hit Nancy's Bakery, the cinnamon buns are amazing.

Are they shaped like cleats or something?:lol:

 

Bull rails have been declared culturally significant under the Trudeau government.

What's he know, he can't even get into a kayak.

vcrd103418928_high.jpg?quality=70&strip=

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8 hours ago, Jammer Six said:

Bad idea, wouldn't solve the problem.

Cleats. They need cleats.

Yeah, but wood of a species not so prone to splintering would be a decent stopgap.

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1 hour ago, SemiSalt said:
10 hours ago, Jammer Six said:

Bad idea, wouldn't solve the problem.

Cleats. They need cleats.

Yeah, but wood of a species not so prone to splintering would be a decent stopgap.

Snowflake :D;)

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8 hours ago, Norse Horse said:

Are they shaped like cleats or something?:lol:

 

Bull rails have been declared culturally significant under the Trudeau government.

The First Nations used them. 

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11 hours ago, Ishmael said:

Make sure you hit Nancy's Bakery, the cinnamon buns are amazing.

That's why we're here....:wub:

Out on the breakwater as the marina is full. On the breakwater floats, someone has welded together some old water pipe and plates and bolted them down as cleats or bollards or something. They have many sharp line eating edges designed into them. If this is how cleats are done in Canada then maybe they should stick to sticks. The wharfinger said each of the floats cost them $750,000 - someone got taken on that contract for sure. 

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46 minutes ago, Jammer Six said:

Nope.

The rails are treated. The best wood isn't treated, because it's more valuable as good wood.

The wood that gets treated is the worst wood, the wood that can't be sold any other way. Treated wood is one step above sawdust.

The only way bull rails work is if they have cleats bolted to them.

Youre wordeng is irronic butte verrey accuratte, tipicalley the portione of logge treatted is caulled the 'cant'                            :)

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Geeze, we only use bull rails on the "visitor" docks...  get a clue, will ya???  :lol:

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John Wayne loved bull rails...

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22 hours ago, Ishmael said:

What's he know, he can't even get into a kayak.

vcrd103418928_high.jpg?quality=70&strip=

Not that JT needs me defending him, but any kayakers that have never done that, raise your hand.

Ahh. I thought so.

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2 hours ago, mcmurdo said:

Not that JT needs me defending him, but any kayakers that have never done that, raise your hand.

Ahh. I thought so.

It's always a major chill when you sit down in that water. Takes your breath away. Suddenly your testicles are chumming with your lungs.

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Not being able to lasso a cleat with your spring as you land, what a hardship. 

I used to hate bullrails and rings, too, until someone leaned over and whispered, "you don't tie to it, you pass under it and bring your line back aboard."

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6 minutes ago, GunkHoler said:

Not being able to lasso a cleat with your spring as you land, what a hardship. 

I used to hate bullrails and rings, too, until someone leaned over and whispered, "you don't tie to it, you pass under it and bring your line back aboard."

Just curious -- what is your freeboard?

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Three posts and already self-identified as an asshole. Last I checked, a line can pick up splinters when looped around wood at least as well as when tied to it.

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I wonder if old fire hose as a moveable "chafe guard" is the best way to handle that.  I have 20' left of the stuff and might as well try it next time I'm up there. 

I share in DDW's hatred of splintery bull rails.  The metal ones are just as bad because they are normally mostly rust.

DDW: are you at least having better wind?  This week is an exception (at least in Seattle), but so far there has been decent wind a lot of this summer. 

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6 minutes ago, IStream said:

Three posts and already self-identified as an asshole. Last I checked, a line can pick up splinters when looped around wood at least as well as when tied to it.

Two posts, thanks, unless you count accidental double posts that I can't figure out how to delete.

Honestly, I've never had a problem with splinters. Maybe I've just gotten lucky with smooth ones?

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Depends on the rail, depends on the line. The heavily used rails tend to be smoother and three strand nylon doesn't seem to pick up as many splinters as double braid.

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On 8/7/2017 at 1:41 AM, madohe said:

Maybe an all-star concert...

Supporting the non-profit group Cleats for Canada.

Rush, Celine Dione, Neil Young, Gordon Lightfoot, April Wine, Guess Who........

C'mon, you know you want him, Justin Bieber!

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1 hour ago, soak_ed said:

C'mon, you know you want him, Justin Bieber!

Naw...we gave him to the USA, along with Ted Cruz. Keep em! No re-gifting...

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1 hour ago, Jim in Halifax said:

Naw...we gave him to the USA, along with Ted Cruz. Keep em! No re-gifting...

OK.  But just remember, Brent Swain belongs to you guys.  From that perspective, Bieber and Cruz don't look so bad.

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I'll take that deal - BS does less damage than those two.

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8 minutes ago, Jammer Six said:

That way, your boat shifts back and forth with the current.

I mean, I guess it does, if you don't set your lines to pull into the corners of the rail supports?

Honestly, I was just teasing a bit with my post. I admit they're marginally (marginally) less convenient than a well-placed cleat. If there's a legion that's determined to hate them with burning passion, and for whom this is the preoccupying annoyance of sailing (rather than say, Bros on Bayliners dragging through the moorage) I'm not trying to unseat your godhead.

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So, GunkHoler...its time to show a little respect for the traditions of this forum. Fuck off and show us some tits!

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rather than have these things chew your dock lines, why not just make a loop from 2 feet of old line, pass it around the rail and back through itself, then moor to that?

Dispose of the loop when it gets too  full of splinters
 

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When you are paying more than a buck a foot a night I don't think it's unreasonable to expect decent cleats on the dock.

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7 minutes ago, SloopJonB said:

When you are paying more than a buck a foot a night I don't think it's unreasonable to expect decent cleats on the dock.

The world is full of injustices.  Fix 'em when we can, but meanwhile try to minimise the damage they do to us

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13 hours ago, GunkHoler said:

Not being able to lasso a cleat with your spring as you land, what a hardship. 

I used to hate bullrails and rings, too, until someone leaned over and whispered, "you don't tie to it, you pass under it and bring your line back aboard."

Most people do it that way but I can't bring myself to. I want my lines to have some give and spring to them so's I lead 'em fore & aft as if there were cleats. 

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20 hours ago, TwoLegged said:

rather than have these things chew your dock lines, why not just make a loop from 2 feet of old line, pass it around the rail and back through itself, then moor to that?

Dispose of the loop when it gets too  full of splinters
 

Don't go bringing good ideas into this.

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The rails are a nuisance, not a tragedy.  And yes, there are ways to make them work a little better.  The point is that cleats, reasonably spaced along the dock, are so much nicer.  The point is also that we enjoy making fun of rails.

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20 hours ago, SloopJonB said:

When you are paying more than a buck a foot a night I don't think it's unreasonable to expect decent cleats on the dock.

$2.50/ft/night in some of the marinas up here in season.

On 8/9/2017 at 8:45 AM, Alex W said:

I wonder if old fire hose as a moveable "chafe guard" is the best way to handle that.  I have 20' left of the stuff and might as well try it next time I'm up there. 

DDW: are you at least having better wind?  This week is an exception (at least in Seattle), but so far there has been decent wind a lot of this summer. 

Trouble with chafe guard is there is no way to get in on the line till the damage is done. On a bull rail, you MUST loop something around it and draw it tight. By the time you have threaded the line through something, positioned it, repositioned it as you sweat the line in, your boat has drifted away.

Still no wind. We put the sails up everyday, sometimes we get an hour with the engine off. Today nearly 2 hours tacking up the Cordero channel in 5-6 knots but it was OK - the slack at the rapids was at 7 AM so we had plenty of time. Then the wind died to 0.5. 

On 8/9/2017 at 1:43 PM, GunkHoler said:

I mean, I guess it does, if you don't set your lines to pull into the corners of the rail supports?

The same people who tell me this argue that cleats are never where you need them. You can't have it both ways. Rail supports are never were you need them. Also, now your lines are chafing over the end grain of the rail supports, an even more splintery wonderland. 

Just buy a bunch of goddamn cleats and put them on the dock. Even bull rails made of the finest polished teak still suffer from a fatal design flaw: you cannot adjust the lines quickly and easily. I have seen about 10 different hitch variations tied by lifetime wharfingers. Adjusting any of them requires untying them and retying them. I can adjust all four dock lines on cleats and have a beer in the time it takes a lifer to adjust one line tied to a bull rail. 

No, I will not be swayed. I will not rest until the scourge is lifted from the earth. 

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1 hour ago, DDW said:

...Even bull rails made of the finest polished teak still suffer from a fatal design flaw: you cannot adjust the lines quickly and easily. I have seen about 10 different hitch variations tied by lifetime wharfingers. Adjusting any of them requires untying them and retying them. I can adjust all four dock lines on cleats and have a beer in the time it takes a lifer to adjust one line tied to a bull rail.

Whether tied to a bull rail or a fancy-smancy cleat, bollard, or whatever, the best way to adjust lines is using the cleats on your own boat. The loop or fixed end of your dock line goes on the dock, the other end is adjusted as required on board. Because you don't even have to hop down to dock level, you never risk spilling so much as a drop of your beer or gin and tonic...

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2 hours ago, DDW said:

No, I will not be swayed. I will not rest until the scourge is lifted from the earth. 

Good to know that you aren't frittering away your three-score-and-ten on trivial issues like the risk of nuclear war in Korea ;)

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26 minutes ago, TwoLegged said:

Good to know that you aren't frittering away your three-score-and-ten on trivial issues like the risk of nuclear war in Korea ;)

I bet they don't have cleats in North Korea.

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13 minutes ago, Ishmael said:

I bet they don't have cleats in North Korea.

If they do, they'll glow in the dark.

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As any fule knoe, the North Koreans ate all their cleats in the famine a few years back

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Okay, guys, I took the challenge. I searched for cleats in North Korea. This is what I found: a river patrol boat. Not sure if it has cleats, but it does have icicles hanging from the deck. And, it could fit in any number of threads here.

For instance, the hull could inform Bob Perry's powerboat project. The anchor could inspire Panope. And, that bowman is to die for.

northkoreacoastguard.jpg.aa525a910d0bc9b5ad61216f973704ba.jpgnorthkoreacoastguard.jpg.aa525a910d0bc9b5ad61216f973704ba.jpg

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9 minutes ago, mcmurdo said:

Okay, guys, I took the challenge. I searched for cleats in North Korea. This is what I found: a river patrol boat. Not sure if it has cleats, but it does have icicles hanging from the deck. And, it could fit in any number of threads here.

For instance, the hull could inform Bob Perry's powerboat project. The anchor could inspire Panope. And, that bowman is to die for.

northkoreacoastguard.jpg.aa525a910d0bc9b5ad61216f973704ba.jpgnorthkoreacoastguard.jpg.aa525a910d0bc9b5ad61216f973704ba.jpg

That thing really digs a hole in the water.

BS could benefit from the handrail design.

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On ‎7‎/‎08‎/‎2017 at 0:58 AM, IStream said:

Say what you want about BS, but if he had the contract at least they'd be made out of steel.

now that would involve welding and you don't want to go there........as in you really really don't want to go there !!!

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11 minutes ago, mcmurdo said:

that bowman is to die for.

Is it a bowman or a scarecrow?

There doesn't seem to be much life in it

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