DDW

Looking forward to the invention of cleats in Canada

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2 hours ago, DDW said:

Sometime yes. It requires that you jump off your boat, loop the entire 50' or so around the splintery bull rail, jump back on your boat, thread it through the closed chock, and cleat it. 4 times for 4 dock lines. And assumes that there is something to stop the loop from sliding down the dock (on springs). And if you decide (or the wharfinger decides) that you need to move forward 20 ft, jump on the boat, uncleat the line, jump off the boat and unloop the entire 50' or so around the splintery bull rail, loop the entire 50' around a new piece of splintery bull rail, jump back on the boat and thread it through the chock, then cleat it. 4 times. With cleats on the dock this is much easier, as is EVERYTHING with cleats on the dock.

Now some bull rail fans here (and there aren't many in the world) say you can use the end of the bull rail like the end of a cleat. The point is you can use both ends of a cleat like the end of a cleat. I can improve the bull rails throughout Canada by taking a sawzall and making the bull rails into a series of fat wooden cleats, by sawing the rail open 6" on either side of every support. But how much better would it be to just install cleats, like the rest of the civilized world? 

Cast steel cleats cost something like $1000/ton. I'm not sure what the cost is in building a marina, but I damn well know that the cost of cleats are in the round off error. 

But here is an interesting fact - in Halifax what do all the government docks on the waterfront have? Cleats, not bull rails. Anomaly on the Pilot boat dock in Halifax. Note the cleats and absence of bull rails:Halifax.thumb.jpg.46813c9255706ad386d6975e10c39420.jpg

 

I will say this, you're making great time on this trip.

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2 hours ago, Ishmael said:

Not the Far East. The Near East.

shediac-lobster-tourist-trap-hopewell-ca

I been there too. They had cleats on the dock.

lobster.jpg.c40ed083667b00f995f0fdfd35468d4a.jpg

26 minutes ago, IStream said:

I will say this, you're making great time on this trip.

It only takes a time machine....

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I was waiting for you to play the Shediac card. That's because they turned all their forests into barren lands and they would have to import bull rails from BC or Quebec or the USA and none of those are acceptable.

So they use Chinese cleats. I think that's disrespectful, if not downright unconstitutional. They should have to use bull rails too. Fuck their delicate unsplintered hands.

 

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I had no idea there was an issue, thought my life was good till now. 

When wearing my wireless headphones while making popcorn in the microwave I get a background hiss. 

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11 hours ago, DDW said:

Sometime yes. It requires that you jump off your boat, loop the entire 50' or so around the splintery bull rail, jump back on your boat, thread it through the closed chock, and cleat it. 4 times for 4 dock lines. And assumes that there is something to stop the loop from sliding down the dock (on springs). And if you decide (or the wharfinger decides) that you need to move forward 20 ft, jump on the boat, uncleat the line, jump off the boat and unloop the entire 50' or so around the splintery bull rail, loop the entire 50' around a new piece of splintery bull rail, jump back on the boat and thread it through the chock, then cleat it. 4 times. With cleats on the dock this is much easier, as is EVERYTHING with cleats on the dock.

Now some bull rail fans here (and there aren't many in the world) say you can use the end of the bull rail like the end of a cleat. The point is you can use both ends of a cleat like the end of a cleat. I can improve the bull rails throughout Canada by taking a sawzall and making the bull rails into a series of fat wooden cleats, by sawing the rail open 6" on either side of every support. But how much better would it be to just install cleats, like the rest of the civilized world? 

Cast steel cleats cost something like $1000/ton. I'm not sure what the cost is in building a marina, but I damn well know that the cost of cleats are in the round off error. 

But here is an interesting fact - in Halifax what do all the government docks on the waterfront have? Cleats, not bull rails. Anomaly on the Pilot boat dock in Halifax. Note the cleats and absence of bull rails:Halifax.thumb.jpg.46813c9255706ad386d6975e10c39420.jpg

 

Love your handsome and clever boat, DDW. I am not so interested in how you tie up but what do you do with the main and mizzen sails when you fly an asym?

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8 hours ago, Ishmael said:

I was waiting for you to play the Shediac card. That's because they turned all their forests into barren lands and they would have to import bull rails from BC or Quebec or the USA and none of those are acceptable.

So they use Chinese cleats. I think that's disrespectful, if not downright unconstitutional. They should have to use bull rails too. Fuck their delicate unsplintered hands.

 

We steal the cleats off the British Colombia docks while we are out there visiting, and bring them home to use and for our visitors... 

I'm off for my manicure.

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12 hours ago, DDW said:

I been there too. They had cleats on the dock.

lobster.jpg.c40ed083667b00f995f0fdfd35468d4a.jpg

It only takes a time machine....

;)

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Those forest fires took out our bull rail supply for the next 5 years, I'm  afraid.:(

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24 minutes ago, Autonomous said:

Not to worry, they're making them out of galvanized pipe now.

Great, zinc shards instead of fir splinters.

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No worries, they are smooth and have much less friction on your dock lines than the wooden bull rails.

6a0120a5d8a08f970c01b8d0757832970c.jpg

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And they might even be a greater tripping hazard.

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42 minutes ago, SloopJonB said:

And they might even be a greater tripping hazard.

They are a real slipping hazard when they're wet.

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10 minutes ago, Ishmael said:

They are a real slipping hazard when they're wet.

So, 9 months of the year here...:(

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On 2017-08-11 at 9:29 PM, DDW said:

Sometime yes. It requires that you jump off your boat, loop the entire 50' or so around the splintery bull rail, jump back on your boat, thread it through the closed chock, and cleat it. 4 times for 4 dock lines. And assumes that there is something to stop the loop from sliding down the dock (on springs). And if you decide (or the wharfinger decides) that you need to move forward 20 ft, jump on the boat, uncleat the line, jump off the boat and unloop the entire 50' or so around the splintery bull rail, loop the entire 50' around a new piece of splintery bull rail, jump back on the boat and thread it through the chock, then cleat it. 4 times. With cleats on the dock this is much easier, as is EVERYTHING with cleats on the dock.

Now some bull rail fans here (and there aren't many in the world) say you can use the end of the bull rail like the end of a cleat. The point is you can use both ends of a cleat like the end of a cleat. I can improve the bull rails throughout Canada by taking a sawzall and making the bull rails into a series of fat wooden cleats, by sawing the rail open 6" on either side of every support. But how much better would it be to just install cleats, like the rest of the civilized world? 

Cast steel cleats cost something like $1000/ton. I'm not sure what the cost is in building a marina, but I damn well know that the cost of cleats are in the round off error. 

But here is an interesting fact - in Halifax what do all the government docks on the waterfront have? Cleats, not bull rails. Anomaly on the Pilot boat dock in Halifax. Note the cleats and absence of bull rails:Halifax.thumb.jpg.46813c9255706ad386d6975e10c39420.jpg

 

When did you take this pic, DDW?

 

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5 hours ago, Ishmael said:

They are a real slipping hazard when they're wet.

Not to mention icy ..

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On 8/11/2017 at 9:15 PM, Ishmael said:

So they use Chinese cleats. I think that's disrespectful, if not downright unconstitutional. 

 

Everybody uses Chinese cleats. You would need to cast them yourself otherwise....

On 8/11/2017 at 10:30 PM, cje said:

I had no idea there was an issue, thought my life was good till now. 

When wearing my wireless headphones while making popcorn in the microwave I get a background hiss. 

2.4 GHz is 2.4 GHz. I gotta lotta bitches but bull rails are right up there.

On 8/12/2017 at 4:50 AM, Grey Dawn said:

Love your handsome and clever boat, DDW. I am not so interested in how you tie up but what do you do with the main and mizzen sails when you fly an asym?

The asym is only really useful in about 4 - 12 TWS, and 90 - 140 TWA. I continue to fly main and mizzen. It can be flown wing and wing with the main (pick either side for the mizzen) but it's tricky business to keep it quiet. We have a mizzen staysail too. For the asym the sweet spot seems to be around 5-6 knots from 140 true. The boat will then do 6-7 knots at 65 apparent. At 10-12  or more true wind and we go pretty good dead downwind anyway since the main can be squared off 90 degrees. 

On 8/12/2017 at 8:13 PM, Autonomous said:

Not to worry, they're making them out of galvanized pipe now.

They have galvanized ones on the nice new docks at Toba Wilderness marina. Much better than splinter wood (as they are not yet rusty). The ones on the breakwater at Lund, made from rusty water pipe with a lot of sharp edges weren't so good. 

On 8/13/2017 at 2:21 PM, groundhog said:

When did you take this pic, DDW?

 

That would have been 2010 when we went out the St. Lawrence to Maine via Newfoundland (where bull rails are ubiquitous). 

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2 hours ago, DDW said:
On 2017-08-13 at 6:21 PM, groundhog said:

When did you take this pic, DDW?

 

That would have been 2010 when we went out the St. Lawrence to Maine via Newfoundland (where bull rails are ubiquitous). 

If it was more recent I would have said to stop by.... next time.

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Perhaps there is some hope. They are replacing all of the finger piers in Union Steamship Marina, Bowen Island. And on those new finger piers are.....cleats. No bull rails. One down, about 3000 to go......

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Seems to be a sticking  point in the  NAFTA talks...

Bull  rails are holding up the softwood lumber agreement proceedings. :unsure:

Gibson's marina has installed dock rings. How cheap is that. 19 ft bayliner cheap.

Here in Secret Cove, cleats are reserved for the gas dock carriage trade only. 

Canada might have to forego cleats as rings have less carbon footprint. ;)

 

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On 8/5/2017 at 8:40 PM, DDW said:

Still looking forward to the invention of cleats in Canada.

Here is a line after a particularly nasty bull rail. Long lengths of all four dock lines looked like this. We have had to handle them with gloves for the last week. It would take hours to pick them out. 

 

Splinters.jpg

Sorry, but you clearly have no idea how to tie to bull rails!  Sitting in Port McNeill after spending 4 months touring BC & Alaska and now heading south.  I've had precisely zero splinters in my lines or hands, but we do anchor out 90% of the time.  However, we also don't let our moorings "chafe" on the bull rail either!

It's not rocket science.  Get to the dock, lay the boat along side, calmly step off and secure the boat.  If the conditions are shit and you are short handed, anchor out!  If you figure-8 around the bull rail (just like you do on a cleat) you get zero line chafe and zero splinters.  Cast off the line from the top and pull the tail from under the rail; no snags, no splinters!

 

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On 10/14/2015 at 1:41 PM, Ishmael said:

 

It's cheaper, probably. Even the most high-class accommodations in Victoria have bull rail with single bolts on the blocks. Apparently friction works well enough, in mysterious ways.

 

DSC_8011.JPG

I like your house mate. Do you clean it yourselves or have some help in?

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1 minute ago, LB 15 said:

I like your house mate. Do you clean it yourselves or have some help in?

That's the summer cottage. We rarely go there anymore, too infested with tourists and other riffraff.

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Yup, used to play in the attics, got in trouble one time fucking with the elevator weights, had to run like hell.  Was a kid with a girlfriend who's parents owned the old Net Loft restaurant.  Now this is what I like to refer to 10 or 15 years ago, was in the late 50's though.  Amazing memories.

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12 hours ago, Gladiator Sailing said:

Sorry, but you clearly have no idea how to tie to bull rails!  Sitting in Port McNeill after spending 4 months touring BC & Alaska and now heading south.  I've had precisely zero splinters in my lines or hands, but we do anchor out 90% of the time.  However, we also don't let our moorings "chafe" on the bull rail either!

It's not rocket science.  Get to the dock, lay the boat along side, calmly step off and secure the boat.  If the conditions are shit and you are short handed, anchor out!  If you figure-8 around the bull rail (just like you do on a cleat) you get zero line chafe and zero splinters.  Cast off the line from the top and pull the tail from under the rail; no snags, no splinters!

 

I've never let the lines chafe on bull rails. You do have to pass them around the rail to tie up, on many of them that is enough to cover your lines in splinters. On the other hand I have never had splinters in the lines from cleats, nor has anyone else.

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Oi! openly insulting an entire nation!!

No way am I sitting next to you at the next company picnic.

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Launched the boat again. Service dock has bull rails. In fact the whole marina has bull rails. Picked up some splinters right away, and had the usual good time warping the boat around to ship the asym pole, fighting the damn bull rails the whole time. 

This is a scourge. Why is D.T. worried about trade? He should be on about bull rails.

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On 9/25/2017 at 9:46 PM, Gladiator Sailing said:

Sorry, but you clearly have no idea how to tie to bull rails!  Sitting in Port McNeill after spending 4 months touring BC & Alaska and now heading south.  I've had precisely zero splinters in my lines or hands, but we do anchor out 90% of the time.  However, we also don't let our moorings "chafe" on the bull rail either!

It's not rocket science.  Get to the dock, lay the boat along side, calmly step off and secure the boat.  If the conditions are shit and you are short handed, anchor out!  If you figure-8 around the bull rail (just like you do on a cleat) you get zero line chafe and zero splinters.  Cast off the line from the top and pull the tail from under the rail; no snags, no splinters!

 

I'm curious how you "figure 8" around bull rails.

I have only used them a dozen or so times, but did not like them. At some spots along the Trent-Severn Waterway (beautiful cruise BTW) there are metal pipe bull rails which have the advantage of being round and non-splintery, but are still a PITA.

One good thing I can think of.... it's more difficult to trip over bull rails than cleats, because they are along the whole edge of the dock, so you expect them; instead of at just the one spot you happen to place your foot.

FB- Doug

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Figure 8 - You loop around the rail right beside the block of wood that supports the rail. Then around the other side of the block of wood and the rail. Like tying up to a infinitely long wooden splintery cleat, in a topological sense.

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FFS! Its not that difficult. Y'all must be a bunch of sailors whose mommies tied your shoe laces for you. Throw a clove hitch on the bull rail - or a round turn and two half hitches, or even some half hitches on the bight - then adjust the lines on the cleats on the deck of your boat. Your boat has cleats, right? What do you need them on the dock for? The only time you really want a cleat on the dock (or, better yet, a bollard!) is when you are snubbing the spring line for some mo-bo-mo-fo who is coming in wildly fast to a slip...and then that's really his problem, not yours. HTFU all you bull rail sissies.

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I have seen ( and can do) many different hitches to a bull rail. That doesn't make it right. Cleats simply work better. It's kinda like the old cell phones with the alpha entry for texts (press "1" three times for "C") compared to a touch screen. Yeah, they do the same job ultimately. One is a pain in the ass to use. 

A figure 8 it what you do on cleat. You can almost use the end of the bull rail as a cleat. Cut it short and you could use it as a cleat. Then why not have a cleat?

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We just pulled in to Bellingham and our dock has both bull rails AND cleats - big ugly splintery bull rails on the finger we're alongside, then one beautiful steel cleat directly in front of our bow - totally useless.  If they took all the unused cleats out of the heads of the slips on this pontoon and just put them on the fingers instead, they could get rid of at least half the bull rails without even buying any new cleats!  I thought we would be safe from this plague because we're still south of the border, but apparently the bull-rail disease has slipped across the border...  We should build a wall to keep the damn things out!

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We’re staying on Old Quebec City and I haven’t seen one cleat in our hotel or in any eating places. Sheesh!

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As I recall, both the downtown Montreal and the downtown Quebec City marinas have cleats, not bull rails. Vive la France!! Maybe if General Wolfe had not prevailed we'd have cleats in British Columbia.

I really liked Quebec City.

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1 hour ago, Bull City said:

We’re staying on Old Quebec City and I haven’t seen one cleat in our hotel or in any eating places. Sheesh!

And you actually eat in a place without cleats.

Have you no pride? ;)

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As long as they have them on the headboard of the hotel bed.......

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4 hours ago, DDW said:

As I recall, both the downtown Montreal and the downtown Quebec City marinas have cleats, not bull rails. Vive la France!! Maybe if General Wolfe had not prevailed we'd have cleats in British Columbia.

I really liked Quebec City.

Ummm, well, properly, you'd maybe have cleats in French Columbia....

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7 hours ago, Veeger said:

Ummm, well, properly, you'd maybe have cleats in French Columbia....

Vive les cleats libres!

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15 hours ago, Bull City said:

We’re staying on Old Quebec City and I haven’t seen one cleat in our hotel or in any eating places. Sheesh!

Geeze man, it is a foreign country!  You are looking for taquets... 

 

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You trigger-happy Yanks all carry guns don't you?:rolleyes:  I’m afraid that we Canadians prefer to not have those not-so-nice things on our streets.  That is precisely why we put up the bull-rails -- it was in order to discourage you from docking in the first place.

Please don’t shoot me.  I’m just the messenger. :mellow:

As a bit of an aside, judging from the discussion on this board, these cheap bull-rails are proving to be just as (more?) effective at repelling evil invaders as that very costly wall much further south that you Yanks are erecting <oops, I can’t use that word, given that it might be embarrassingly misconstrued, even if that does seem to be one of your (purposeful?) self-effects ;) … so let’s just stick with the word ‘constructing’, shall we?>.  Um, it is un-Canadian to boast, but may I ask with a sheepish smile: who is spending ‘defence’ money more efficiently and wisely? 

But now may I offer you Yanks a solution for if you still do want to land in our beautiful Country, but don't want to (lord forbid) learn a different knot?  I suppose that you could always just use the bull-rail for target practice.  Just use your shiny guns to shoot out the wood to either side of the bolt.  Then voila <that is a French word, by the way; with a nod to Sculpin, we are a bilingual Country> you have your very own true taquet-cleat.  And you may even customize it – just shoot-out whatever size and shape that you want.  I suspect that it will probably have been at least 3 hours since you had last used your gun(s); so I’m sure that you’ll be itching to do this :rolleyes:

This being Canada, the worst that will happen to you is that our Peace Officers (a.k.a. Police) will politely ask you to stow your weapon in a secure case <preferably attached to an anchor, please>.  Then we will even put up a sign on the dock that says in English and French (again, we are bilingual) the equivalent of your ‘American language’: “Park yer beamy arse at this har cleat”.  Despite the temptation to do otherwise ;), we will likely even retain the ramp that goes from that dock to the shore.

With a smile (and perhaps with a tongue still in cheek) we welcome ALL of you to Canada, bienvenue au Canada.:D

 


For board-traditionalists (pun intended) who insist on a certain ‘offering’ from junior members, I’m afraid that manners and decorum dictate that this is all that I can offer:

Untitled.jpg.4a677fdf9e734f2a2d3589e22e89fce6.jpg

 

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4 hours ago, sculpin said:
20 hours ago, Bull City said:

We’re staying on Old Quebec City and I haven’t seen one cleat in our hotel or in any eating places. Sheesh!

Geeze man, it is a foreign country!  You are looking for taquets... 

 

 

Que est-ce "taquets"?

I am looking for poutine. In fact I am thinking of importing it, I'm sure it will be a big seller here in the South.

FB- Doug

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Eh? So last night, Mrs. BC & I went to typical French Canadian restaurant, Aux Anciens Canadiens, in a house dating from the 1600’s. I had “Grandma’s Treat” as my entree (Mrs. BC waved me off “Grandpa’s Treat.”) this on top of snails and pea soup. I couldn’t move. It included a slice of meat pie, two big meat balls, potatoes, brown gravy, baked beans and some other stuff. It was delicious.  Had I gone moose hunting in winter, it would have been ideal.

Today we went to the naval museum. It focused on convoy duty in WWII, and was very personal. Then we toured   HMCS Moncton, a coastal defense vessel. I didn’t spot any cleats or bull-rails on the quay, just bits & bollards. 

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1 hour ago, Bull City said:

Eh? So last night, Mrs. BC & I went to typical French Canadian restaurant, Aux Anciens Canadiens, in a house dating from the 1600’s. I had “Grandma’s Treat” as my entree (Mrs. BC waved me off “Grandpa’s Treat.”) this on top of snails and pea soup. I couldn’t move. It included a slice of meat pie, two big meat balls, potatoes, brown gravy, baked beans and some other stuff. It was delicious.  Had I gone moose hunting in winter, it would have been ideal.

Today we went to the naval museum. It focused on convoy duty in WWII, and was very personal. Then we toured   HMCS Moncton, a coastal defense vessel. I didn’t spot any cleats or bull-rails on the quay, just bits & bollards. 

The sailors of the WW2 convoys were berserkly brave.

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3 hours ago, J the landlocked dreamer said:

Please don’t shoot me.  I’m just the messenger. :mellow:

When the shootin' starts, we shoot everything

Could just bring a powder actuated fastener system (probably illegal in The Great White North?), step onto the dock, and fire a few fasteners through my own cleats into the dock (those things work on wood, concrete, steel - doesn't matter). Remington makes them. It would take less time than dealing with splintery bull rails. And the next guy would have something to tie off to. Once again, I can tie to a bull rail as well as any native. There are provably better ways to tie up a boat, which is what most of the civilized world has adopted. 

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Then what about that sharing of cleats, how disgusting is that:wacko:

2fcdx8.jpg

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On 8/7/2018 at 2:27 AM, Bull City said:

Make America GOOD Again.

FIFY.

The word "again" is used to describe a recurrence.  Your laudable goal would be a first occurrence

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I am pleased to announce that I have discovered the Sasquatch of boat attachments, a cleat in Canada!  Coal Harbour Marina in Vancouver actually has *cleats* on their docks!  The marina manager even laughed derisively when I asked over the phone if they had bull rails, according those monstrosities the lack of respect that they deserve!

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On 8/5/2018 at 2:54 PM, Bull City said:

Eh? So last night, Mrs. BC & I went to typical French Canadian restaurant, Aux Anciens Canadiens, in a house dating from the 1600’s. I had “Grandma’s Treat” as my entree (Mrs. BC waved me off “Grandpa’s Treat.”) this on top of snails and pea soup. I couldn’t move. It included a slice of meat pie, two big meat balls, potatoes, brown gravy, baked beans and some other stuff. It was delicious.  Had I gone moose hunting in winter, it would have been ideal.

Today we went to the naval museum. It focused on convoy duty in WWII, and was very personal. Then we toured   HMCS Moncton, a coastal defense vessel. I didn’t spot any cleats or bull-rails on the quay, just bits & bollards. 

Ahoy!  I once ate at the Anciens Canadiens circa 1988, with my wife's whole family (we were on vacation).  It being Father's Day in Canada, all the men were treated to a snifter of cognac on the house.  My FIL doesn't drink, and my BIL was 15.  Three cognacs fit my bill nicely. . .

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Good stuff here, I'm flying to Halifax tomorrow to join a friends boat at RNSYS and cruise to Baddeck. Based on advice here I'm leaving my six shooter and cowboy hat at home..

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37 minutes ago, Cruisin Loser said:

Good stuff here, I'm flying to Halifax tomorrow to join a friends boat at RNSYS and cruise to Baddeck. Based on advice here I'm leaving my six shooter and cowboy hat at home..

No six shooter and cowboy hat???? :o

Surely that will mean automatic revocation of your Texas citizenship? ;)

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Good reasoning. Bring a six pack instead

 

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1 hour ago, Cruisin Loser said:

 Based on advice here I'm leaving my six shooter and cowboy hat at home..

Good decision - after the shooting of the cops in NB you'd likely receive a particularly unfriendly greeting.

Maybe even impolite.

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On 8/11/2018 at 9:39 AM, TwoLegged said:

 

No six shooter and cowboy hat???? :o

Surely that will mean automatic revocation of your Texas citizenship? ;)

Careful...Cowboy hats, six shooters, policemen, construction workers, indian headdresses, rainbow cleats .... may want to Liberal Up before you arrive:)NTTAWWT

https://rebrn.com/re/the-city-of-corner-brook-newfoundland-recently-installed-two-rai-2645362/

Image result for rainbow crosswalk newfoundland

Ring Rd Victoria. No I didn't make that up...

 

Coconut-Beech-Distressed-Painted-Marine-Boat-6-Dock-Cleats-for-Your-Home-Office-or-Tiki-Bar-0.jpg

9ad6397118cae1517829b612c2a38b4f--vivid-colors-lighthouses.jpg

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On 8/4/2018 at 2:29 PM, hdra said:

We just pulled in to Bellingham and our dock has both bull rails AND cleats - big ugly splintery bull rails on the finger we're alongside, then one beautiful steel cleat directly in front of our bow - totally useless.  If they took all the unused cleats out of the heads of the slips on this pontoon and just put them on the fingers instead, they could get rid of at least half the bull rails without even buying any new cleats!  I thought we would be safe from this plague because we're still south of the border, but apparently the bull-rail disease has slipped across the border...  We should build a wall to keep the damn things out!

Look around a bit.  You may find some enterprising folks have a loop of chain around the rails, and then to a line.

 

Over in the fishing fleet area are you?

 

Chews the heck out of the wood, but nobody seems to care.

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Oh there are plenty of ways to try to work around the evils of bull rails. All of which are made unnecessary simply by installing cleats. 

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12 hours ago, DDW said:

Oh there are plenty of ways to try to work around the evils of bull rails. All of which are made unnecessary simply by installing cleats. 

It's Anarchy out there.

 

We could all hope for Med Moorings.

 

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Oh the evils you North Americans visit on one another! Around here we keep our bulls, and their rails, well away from the seas.....

 

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On 10/7/2015 at 2:57 PM, DDW said:

This technology - universally used in the rest of the civilized world - has not made it to Canada. Instead the docks have a rough board bolted down to the edge of the dock.

Very sharp dividing line as the US/Canada border. This is not unique to BC, the same was true in Atlantic Canada.

:D:P:rolleyes:

 

To paraphrase Rudyard Kipling, “North is North, and South is South - and never the ‘twain shall meet.”

You lily-livered Yanks should feel lucky we provide those smooth, luxurious, tie-where-you-like, wooden rails.  In wild woolier northcountry of Scandinavia, they make delicate yachties pound steel pitons into fissures in onshore rocks and secure their mooring lines to them!  Wooden rails, where you can tie anywhere, smoothly sanded and maintained by our proud Canadian socialist workers, are a godsend here in the southern northcountry!  (And they tend to dissuade all but the heartiest Yank yachties from venturing to far north here.) 

:-) :-)

http://www.camerondueck.com/?tag=swedish

18D622CA-08A5-4FA8-9600-380757748186.jpeg

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You'd think with all the extra bronze they're going to have laying around, casting some cleats could be done on the cheap.

 

john-a-macdonald-statue-removal.jpg

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1 hour ago, Dilligaf0220 said:

You'd think with all the extra bronze they're going to have laying around, casting some cleats could be done on the cheap.

 

john-a-macdonald-statue-removal.jpg

I guess the old boy will be staying in that position, judging from the comfy foam.

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On 8/4/2018 at 7:26 AM, Zonker said:

Figure 8 - You loop around the rail right beside the block of wood that supports the rail. Then around the other side of the block of wood and the rail. Like tying up to a infinitely long wooden splintery cleat, in a topological sense.

I've used bollards, rings, weighted ropes or cleats but I would feel a bit silly coming to berth with those.

If I am unlucky enough to have the wind pushing me against the wharf/pontoon when I want to go, I use a spring to pivot the stern at an angle and then reverse out while the crew retrieves the spring line. Can you do this with bull rails or is your line unretrievable ?

Bolting rings to the rail every 5 metres would solve the splitters issue neatly.

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OMG, I can't believe an entire thread trashing bull-rails.

Here in the Great White North, it's a safer way to secure as the bull-rails are typically through-bolted right into the dock during construction.

They're not a trip hazard like cleats can be. 

Nobody seems to know how to tie off correctly to a cleat anyway.

And is the cleat through bolted?  Not likely, just lag bolted usually.

Bull-rails are always right where you need them. One does have to rely on the spacing of the bull-rail attachment blocks for anything but breast lines, however. 

Tying to a bull rail is easy and splinter free if you know how to do it:

First, form a generous loop in the dock line and pass it under the bull-rail from the outside, twice ( a full-round-turn ).  Then form two half-hitches around both the bitter end and the new boat-to-dock line, together, leaving a loop in the second half-hitch for easy release. So all your lines are doubled in the knot. It's called a full-round-turn with two half hitches.

Passing the line under the rail first applies the load to the shortest lever arm on the bolts holding the rail to the dock. The full round turn is self tightening and distributes the load over many bends, not just one, but is still easily released ( it doesn't bind ).

To make it a bit simpler for you, just a single line, full-round-turn on the bull-rail and back to the CLEAT on your boat! Then you have, balanced, two-line strength and a quick get-away should your neighbour catch fire in the night.

But learn how to tie off correctly to your cleat.

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1 hour ago, Panoramix said:

I've used bollards, rings, weighted ropes or cleats but I would feel a bit silly coming to berth with those.

If I am unlucky enough to have the wind pushing me against the wharf/pontoon when I want to go, I use a spring to pivot the stern at an angle and then reverse out while the crew retrieves the spring line. Can you do this with bull rails or is your line unretrievable ?

Bolting rings to the rail every 5 metres would solve the splitters issue neatly.

You can't count on retrieving a line on a bull rail from the boat.

Rings are a close relative to the bull rails in the "most horrible dock fixture" sweeps.

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2 minutes ago, SloopJonB said:
1 hour ago, Panoramix said:

 

You can't count on retrieving a line on a bull rail from the boat.

Why not? I've never had a problem doing it.

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Then you've been lucky a lot of the time.

Lines get jammed in the corners, snagged by big splinters, hung up by the sheer friction of the things - a myriad reasons. They nearly always come free eventually but frequently suffer damage from all the various forms of abrasion that the rails can create.

Can you tell I hate the fuckers?

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18 hours ago, BarfBag said:

OMG, I can't believe an entire thread trashing bull-rails.

Here in the Great White North, it's a safer way to secure as the bull-rails are typically through-bolted right into the dock during construction.

They're not a trip hazard like cleats can be. 

Nobody seems to know how to tie off correctly to a cleat anyway.

And is the cleat through bolted?  Not likely, just lag bolted usually.

Bull-rails are always right where you need them. One does have to rely on the spacing of the bull-rail attachment blocks for anything but breast lines, however. 

Tying to a bull rail is easy and splinter free if you know how to do it:

First, form a generous loop in the dock line and pass it under the bull-rail from the outside, twice ( a full-round-turn ).  Then form two half-hitches around both the bitter end and the new boat-to-dock line, together, leaving a loop in the second half-hitch for easy release. So all your lines are doubled in the knot. It's called a full-round-turn with two half hitches.

Passing the line under the rail first applies the load to the shortest lever arm on the bolts holding the rail to the dock. The full round turn is self tightening and distributes the load over many bends, not just one, but is still easily released ( it doesn't bind ).

To make it a bit simpler for you, just a single line, full-round-turn on the bull-rail and back to the CLEAT on your boat! Then you have, balanced, two-line strength and a quick get-away should your neighbour catch fire in the night.

But learn how to tie off correctly to your cleat.

There’s a simple, yet deep sociological/cultural explanation for this.  

Somewhere out there (but the title escapes me right now) is a classic sociology/political science book written by a well-known Harvard University professor, I believe.  It’s a case study that examines two adjacent Canadian and US communities straddling the border, a county in North Dakota and an area of Saskatchewan, both prairie  farming areas that one would think share a lot in common.

Not so much, it turns out.  (The book was written several decades ago; tunes may have changed as political populism has reared its ugly head recently.)  As an example in the book, Saskatchewan elected the first ever Democratic Socialist in North America, Tommy Douglas, the “father” of the modern Canadian health care system.  In North Dakota, it’s more the “leave us alone we don’t need no stinkin’ government for nothin’” approach to health care.  And so on throughout the case study, finding surprisingly large cultural and sociological differences between Canada and the US.

And so it is with cleats vs. bull rails.  Children of a common mother, separated at birth.  :-)

My sociological theory is that the American cleat —thinking of its shape —  symbolizes the longhorn steer, furiously independent, standing alone.  Accepting but one dock line only. The Canadian bull rail, by contrast, is a long piece of commonality —tie here, brother, or here, or here: there’s room for everyone. :-)

Like the humourous quip about America and England, with their very different versions of “English” — two countries separated by a common language! 

Incidentally, bull rails are also pretty common in Alaska, as I recall - I somehow think it’s a commercial dock thing (fish boats) that sorta migrated to yachtie docks (in Alaska and parts of the U.S. PNW).  Just a guess.

Here’s a woman singlehandedly and smoothly docking to a bull rail: https://seattleonthewater.com/knots-%26-line-handling (scroll down to heading, “Singlehanded Bull Rail Docking”).

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It's notable that she chose a metal bull rail for her videos. I don't think anyone's complaining about those. 

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I am - I like cleats - big cleats that are easy to lasso from the deck. I hate having to thread dock lines under a rail or through a ring while the wind blows the boat away from the dock.

Bull rails are just cheap & easy - no other reason for their existence.

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bollards=Far Right Conservative

folding SS cleats=Moderate Conservative

bronze cleats=Small C Conservative

cast cleats=Conservative with Liberal Values

shared cleats=NDP

dock rings=Parti Quebecois

wood cleats=Liberal with Conservative Values

bull rails with cleats on top=Small L Liberal

bull rails and rafting up=Moderate Liberal

bull rails, rafting up and stern ties=Far Right Liberal

log booms and poached docks=Green Party

I hope this clears things up for our American visitors;)

 

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51 minutes ago, SloopJonB said:

I am - I like cleats - big cleats that are easy to lasso from the deck. I hate having to thread dock lines under a rail or through a ring while the wind blows the boat away from the dock.

Bull rails are just cheap & easy - no other reason for their existence.

Well, okay. I also prefer cleats for the reason you cite but a metal bull rail is 10X better than wood. 

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14 hours ago, daddle said:

Looking forward to the invention of docks in the Philippines.

I'm looking forward to meeting a Canadain that can make change for a ten dollar bill.

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38 minutes ago, Al Paca said:

I'm looking forward to meeting a Canadain that can make change for a ten dollar bill.

 

festisite_us_dollar_10.png

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55 minutes ago, Al Paca said:

I'm looking forward to meeting a Canadain that can make change for a ten dollar bill.

We have the metric system - if there's a problem making change for a Tenner, the problem is with you.

And WTF is a Canadain? Is that Amurrican for a Quebecois?

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6 hours ago, Jud - s/v Sputnik said:

 

Here’s a woman singlehandedly and smoothly docking to a bull rail: https://seattleonthewater.com/knots-%26-line-handling (scroll down to heading, “Singlehanded Bull Rail Docking”).

Her boat and one of mine share the same uncommon boat name!

What's yer sign, Babe?

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