Lokiyawl

Nordic 44

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Hello,

I am hoping to find a boat in the 40-47' range that is delightfully fun to sail but also has the required characteristics to be safe on long offshore voyages. Since I am currently researching the Nordic 44, I was hoping to get some input from the lucky owners of this interesting design. I have not yet seen this boat in person so my only information so far has been gleamed from research and from studying the design. I really like the way the ballast has been concentrated near the bottom of the keel of this boat and the deep sump that this design feature creates. I know that some lighter and more shallow boats are faster but I really want my boat to have a real bilge for stowage and for keeping any water etc. out of the interior. I like the fact that this boat is rigged with fore and aft lowers. I feel that this gives the lower portion of the spar a lot of stability when banging into head seas and also some redundancy in the event that one lower ever lets go for some reason. The interior layout looks like it would work out pretty well. The V drive and access to the front of the engine (which is facing aft) is a bit of a concern, is the only access to the front of the engine gained from crawling across the top of the engine or is there an access hatch aft? I assume that most boats have a dripless shaft seal due to access.. The 7' draft would be my choice if I end up buying one of these boats for performance reasons. Most of the questions I have about this boat pertain to how she sails. Does she carry her way well through tacks well for instance? How about in a chop? When you get really slow after a tack does (assume a balanced sail combination for this question) the bow tend to blow off or does she retain steerage and just accelerate? I realize that the skeg hung rudder will be slower to turn the boat than a balanced spade but I really like the rudder protection that the skeg provides, especially for shedding lobster pot lines etc. Any comments on how manuverable this design is would sure be appreciated. Also how is she in a seaway, motion and any tendency to pound? I have read a couple of posts by Bob Perry indicating that he really likes the way this boat sails, it would sure be great to hear from the expert on how he defines this characteristic! Thanks in advance for any input.

 

James

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"Bob Perry, its for you on line one."

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"Bob Perry, its for you on line one."

Yes, it would be great to hear from the designer but I would also really like to hear from owners and others that are familiar with the Nordic 44 to get as much input as possible! Thanks! James

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Loki:

You can read about my consultation on my web site at www.perryboat.com

 

Do not worry about how the Nordic 44 sails. It has beautiful helm balance, is close winded and fast. It's like a big pussycat. It does everything the Valiant 40 does and does it all far better. I think it is one of my very best designs. I have a friend with one. She's had it for years and needs to get rid of it now but she loves the boat so much she's putting off selling it.

 

If you are after a cruising boat that is rewarding to sail you could do far worse than a Nordic 44.

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Loki:

You can read about my consultation on my web site at www.perryboat.com

 

Do not worry about how the Nordic 44 sails. It has beautiful helm balance, is close winded and fast. It's like a big pussycat. It does everything the Valiant 40 does and does it all far better. I think it is one of my very best designs. I have a friend with one. She's had it for years and needs to get rid of it now but she loves the boat so much she's putting off selling it.

 

If you are after a cruising boat that is rewarding to sail you could do far worse than a Nordic 44.

Bob,

 

Many thanks for your input on the Nordic 44. Beautiful helm balance, close winded and fast, I will definitely take a closer look at this design. I believe that there is one for sale in Rhode Island but she would be winterized before I could get there this year due to work demands. Feel free to give my contact information to your friend if you wish but so that my cards are all on the table it will be 1-2 more years before I will be needing another boat. I assume that your friend is on the West Coast?

 

I read about your consultation offer before posting and I think that it is a great value to anyone seriously interested in one of your boats or maybe in getting help in making a decision. I would like to first gather as much information about this design as I can on my own and then if we get down to brass tacks on one you will be consulted. Having some construction drawings and being able to ask questions about how some hidden parts of the boat are constructed etc., well that would have a lot of value to me. I have two other designs (The Hylas 44 and the Stevens 47) that I have been looking at for a while and plan to charter both of those boats over the winter while in Florida to help with my evaluation. I have looked at countless designs and it worries me a little that I have only found three so far that look interesting though surely I am missing a few.. As you are probably already aware, there are many many glowing comments on the web directed at your Nordic 44 design. From what I have gathered, basically the same boat is available through Nor Star I believe. What a nice compliment on the design!

 

All the best to you!

 

James

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Thanks James: I'm very happy that owners like what I know to be a great sailing boat.

 

I don't usually read reviews of my designs. For me to give a review credibility I have to know the sailor well and know that we share common benchmarks for exactly what good performance is. This process is very different from what you would use for a race boat. There you can look at ratings and race results.

 

With cruising boats you get, " It was a sunny afternoon and we cooked a prime rib in our spacious galley as we reached down the bay at 4 knots. Mary took a shower. This is a great boat."

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Thanks James: I'm very happy that owners like what I know to be a great sailing boat.

 

I don't usually read reviews of my designs. For me to give a review credibility I have to know the sailor well and know that we share common benchmarks for exactly what good performance is. This process is very different from what you would use for a race boat. There you can look at ratings and race results.

 

With cruising boats you get, " It was a sunny afternoon and we cooked a prime rib in our spacious galley as we reached down the bay at 4 knots. Mary took a shower. This is a great boat."

Bob,

 

We seem to be on the same page with the subjective nature of what makes a great boat. Our current boat is an S&S Loki yawl and IMO she is a great sailing boat by my definition but I am sure this differs from others. To give an example of why I feel that the boat sails well would in part be illustrated by the time my wife and I were cruising Downeast Maine late in the season and we lost the engine. We were already a couple days out from home base, a gale was coming soon but our destination (Rogue Island) was only half a days sail away. Should we limp home or sail on? The decision was easy because the boat is so easy to handle and that gave us the confidence that we could get in and out of just about anyplace that we wanted to go under sail, so we pressed on and had a great time with no problems. She is the perfect coastal and daysailer for us, but we want to venture a lot further and a 26 lwl and 9.5' of beam doesn't give us the carrying capacity we feel we need etc. ,hence the reason I am out looking at other designs.

 

Question.... Do you think that an expert (and I am not claiming to be one!) sailor could drop the mooring on a Nordic 44 and starting with no initial way on, beat out of a channel that had a useable width of 3 boat lengths? This is the approximate channel width behind our house and we try to sail in and out each time we go out just to stay in practice. I have found that with the just mainsail and using the mizzen as an air rudder to steer until we have way on that it is quite possible with our yawl but I can imagine that it would be much more difficult with a sloop or cutter? One of these days we will end up in the soft mud but the only risk will be to our pride so why not practice? The answer to this question would probably not be a major factor in selecting our next boat but to me it is an interesting data point and the answer to me would reveal a lot about a boats handling in close quarters.

 

All the best,

 

James

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Not sure what 3 boat lengths you are referring to but I think being able to short tack the Nordic 44 in 100 - 120' of channel is unlikely but with enough wind and a non-overlapping head sail you might pull it off. I wouldn't try it unless I had no choice. One missed tack and you are screwed. If the mooring is mid channel you are starting with 50'! The boat takes some time to get moving. It weighs around 25,000 pounds. It actually sails well in light air but requires time to accelerate. Short tacking is not what this boat is good at. The turn radius is larger than a boat with a spade rudder and higher aspect keel. Forcing it to turn tight just kills momentum. We also race mine and don't even bother with short course races. It is just not something this boat is suited for. However, it goes to weather very well and is very comfortable under way. I often wish the sea conditions were worse where we are because we would probably do better in the racing we do against boats that would not handle the rough conditions as well. I feel very comfortable taking this boat out in nasty weather.

 

You won't want to store anything in the bilge I don't think. Maybe anchor chain. It is more than deep enough to contain any water that might enter the boat. You will get some coming down the mast.

 

The front of the engine requires you to lay out over the top of it. For example, I put a cheap boat cushion down on top when I have to change the oil filter and check belts, or change the impeller. There is otherwise a reasonable amount of access around the engine to work. The companionway top and stairs come away providing good access.

 

Like most boats with this configuration you will have some fun backing up. The prop you chose will influence this some extent. The stern will walk to port. That's just how it is. You learn to use it when you can or deal with.

 

One reason I bought this design is I wanted a dedicated shower. I never liked the idea of showering, something I actually do on the boat regularly, and getting the entire head space soaking wet. The aft head provides that. I have come to the conclusion that the second, forward head is of little value. I'm seriously thinking of converting it into something else.

 

These are strong boats that were built when teak was still in good supply. The interiors of a good example are very nice if you like the teak look. There is nothing flimsy on this boat. I have found very little I can't access to repair and that is an important attribute in an older boat. If you can find a good one, that is well equipped, hasn't been abused, then you will have a great sailing boat that you can take damn near anywhere with 7 feet or more of water.

 

One last thing to keep in mind. The sails on this boat are big as they will be on the others you have mentioned. Keep that in mind when you look at what sails on the boat at purchase time. Heavy dacron cruising sails are almost too heavy for one person to manage on deck. It is right at the limit I would say and maybe over for some people. I've moved to laminates. They won't last as long but they are way lighter. The primary winches on the Nordic 44 (65's on mine) can seem a bit small on a windy day after about 5 short tacks with the 135 up.

 

No boat is perfect but overall I'm still very happy with my boat. I just keep pouring money into it. I'm happy or crazy. Maybe both.

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My wife and I chartered a Nordic 44 in Honolulu and had a blast sailing it around. The boat was so balanced and easy to sail. Just loved it. Here is a quick clip of us sailing on it.

 

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^ Converted to wire rigging? I believe most of them were shipped with rod. Those strong trades would be nice in the Nordic 44. I'd like to make the round trip over to HI from WA next year. Just for the heck of it. I need to get away from civilization for a while.

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Not sure what 3 boat lengths you are referring to but I think being able to short tack the Nordic 44 in 100 - 120' of channel is unlikely but with enough wind and a non-overlapping head sail you might pull it off. I wouldn't try it unless I had no choice. One missed tack and you are screwed. If the mooring is mid channel you are starting with 50'! The boat takes some time to get moving. It weighs around 25,000 pounds. It actually sails well in light air but requires time to accelerate. Short tacking is not what this boat is good at. The turn radius is larger than a boat with a spade rudder and higher aspect keel. Forcing it to turn tight just kills momentum. We also race mine and don't even bother with short course races. It is just not something this boat is suited for. However, it goes to weather very well and is very comfortable under way. I often wish the sea conditions were worse where we are because we would probably do better in the racing we do against boats that would not handle the rough conditions as well. I feel very comfortable taking this boat out in nasty weather.

 

You won't want to store anything in the bilge I don't think. Maybe anchor chain. It is more than deep enough to contain any water that might enter the boat. You will get some coming down the mast.

 

The front of the engine requires you to lay out over the top of it. For example, I put a cheap boat cushion down on top when I have to change the oil filter and check belts, or change the impeller. There is otherwise a reasonable amount of access around the engine to work. The companionway top and stairs come away providing good access.

 

Like most boats with this configuration you will have some fun backing up. The prop you chose will influence this some extent. The stern will walk to port. That's just how it is. You learn to use it when you can or deal with.

 

One reason I bought this design is I wanted a dedicated shower. I never liked the idea of showering, something I actually do on the boat regularly, and getting the entire head space soaking wet. The aft head provides that. I have come to the conclusion that the second, forward head is of little value. I'm seriously thinking of converting it into something else.

 

These are strong boats that were built when teak was still in good supply. The interiors of a good example are very nice if you like the teak look. There is nothing flimsy on this boat. I have found very little I can't access to repair and that is an important attribute in an older boat. If you can find a good one, that is well equipped, hasn't been abused, then you will have a great sailing boat that you can take damn near anywhere with 7 feet or more of water.

 

One last thing to keep in mind. The sails on this boat are big as they will be on the others you have mentioned. Keep that in mind when you look at what sails on the boat at purchase time. Heavy dacron cruising sails are almost too heavy for one person to manage on deck. It is right at the limit I would say and maybe over for some people. I've moved to laminates. They won't last as long but they are way lighter. The primary winches on the Nordic 44 (65's on mine) can seem a bit small on a windy day after about 5 short tacks with the 135 up.

 

No boat is perfect but overall I'm still very happy with my boat. I just keep pouring money into it. I'm happy or crazy. Maybe both.

Many thanks for your input on the Nordic 44! This is very helpful and gives me a lot better idea of how the boat handles! I am very encouraged by many of your comments about the design, it sounds like she is quite nimble for such a large boat with a skeg mounted rudder. Can I ask if she tends to make much leeway in a situation where the boat speed is quite low such as when short tacking?

 

My Loki yawl is moored behind the house on a leg of Cape George Harbour on the Bras D'or Lakes. We chose the location because it is a very secure location to have a boat in any kind of weather which is due in part to how narrow the waterway is. Th channel behind the house where we moor is only about three useable boat lengths wide, which is where the 3 boat lengths (about 110') comes from. There are no dangers or obstacles other than the mooring ball itself so we almost always sail in an out when we can for close quarter practice in case the day ever comes that we need to do something similar in an emergency without the benefit of an engine. The only reason that I am able to short tack this full keel boat out of a such a narrow channel is because of the mizzen. By backing the mizzen the boat can be rotated in the desired direction even without any way on at all so this is what I have to do for the first 2-3 tacks until there is enough flow over the rudder for it to become effective. I would like to experiment sometime with a staysail to see if it could be used in a similar manner (backing it to rotate the bow as needed) to steer the boat.

 

You said that the boat sails well in light air but needs time to accelerate due to her displacement. Can you give me some idea of how well she coasts along between puffs?

 

That is really encouraging to hear that the boat does quite well to windward in a chop. That is an area that my current boat does not and I consider good windward ability to be very important. Also great to hear that you feel that the boat does well in nasty weather, it sounds like you have a lot of confidence in your boat.

 

I am quite used to owning boats that back pretty much whichever direction they feel like so this quality sort of feels normal to me. (grin) It looks like the prop wash on this design should flow over the rudder so I assume that she can be rotated by backing and filling?

 

Yes, the separate shower stall is a very nice feature to have, especially if one will be living aboard for extended periods, good point. We would expect to have guests aboard from time to time so would likely keep both heads but I understand where you are coming from with your suggestion..that is a lot of space wasted if it is not being utilized.

 

Great to hear your comments about the interior, especially how solid everything feels. It also sounds like some thought went into providing access to everything, that is not common on some boats!

 

The mainsail on the Stevens 47 weighs in close to 100 lbs. in dacron. We both really like that particular boat but the weight of the sails and the handling of them shorthanded is one of the main reasons we are looking a boats with smaller sail plans. You make a good point about considering a laminate sail to trim the weight. I am currently looking at having some new sails made for my current boat and have been looking at Hydra Net, which apparently offers close to the stability of a laminate sail but with a life expectancy similar to a dacron sail. Also because the material is stronger, some weight savings are possible, I have my sailmaker looking into what would be reasonable but it would not be as much of a savings as going with laminate sails.

 

And yes, doing a lot of tacking with a big overlapping genny is a lot of work, I have been there too! Our Loki with the fractional rig/ 263 square foot working jib has spoiled us since in winds under 15 knots we almost never touch a winch handle. For our next boat I was thinking that a headsail with minimal or no overlap might work best for us for daysailing, and then have a code 0 and some light downwind sails to make up for the smaller headsail when on those long tacks.. we will see.

 

Yes, we agree, no boat is perfect. They are all compromises and often the desired qualities seem to be in conflict with each other. But it is sounding more and more like I need to look into scheduling a sail on a Nordic 44. Thank you for taking your time to give me your feedback.

 

All the best,

 

James and Joann

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My wife and I chartered a Nordic 44 in Honolulu and had a blast sailing it around. The boat was so balanced and easy to sail. Just loved it. Here is a quick clip of us sailing on it.

 

Thanks for the input and also for sharing the short video!

 

James

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^ Converted to wire rigging? I believe most of them were shipped with rod. Those strong trades would be nice in the Nordic 44. I'd like to make the round trip over to HI from WA next year. Just for the heck of it. I need to get away from civilization for a while.

I hope that you get to make that trip.

 

James

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Thanks James: I'm very happy that owners like what I know to be a great sailing boat.

 

I don't usually read reviews of my designs. For me to give a review credibility I have to know the sailor well and know that we share common benchmarks for exactly what good performance is. This process is very different from what you would use for a race boat. There you can look at ratings and race results.

 

With cruising boats you get, " It was a sunny afternoon and we cooked a prime rib in our spacious galley as we reached down the bay at 4 knots. Mary took a shower. This is a great boat."

Bob,

 

We seem to be on the same page with the subjective nature of what makes a great boat. Our current boat is an S&S Loki yawl and IMO she is a great sailing boat by my definition but I am sure this differs from others. To give an example of why I feel that the boat sails well would in part be illustrated by the time my wife and I were cruising Downeast Maine late in the season and we lost the engine. We were already a couple days out from home base, a gale was coming soon but our destination (Rogue Island) was only half a days sail away. Should we limp home or sail on? The decision was easy because the boat is so easy to handle and that gave us the confidence that we could get in and out of just about anyplace that we wanted to go under sail, so we pressed on and had a great time with no problems. She is the perfect coastal and daysailer for us, but we want to venture a lot further and a 26 lwl and 9.5' of beam doesn't give us the carrying capacity we feel we need etc. ,hence the reason I am out looking at other designs.

 

Question.... Do you think that an expert (and I am not claiming to be one!) sailor could drop the mooring on a Nordic 44 and starting with no initial way on, beat out of a channel that had a useable width of 3 boat lengths? This is the approximate channel width behind our house and we try to sail in and out each time we go out just to stay in practice. I have found that with the just mainsail and using the mizzen as an air rudder to steer until we have way on that it is quite possible with our yawl but I can imagine that it would be much more difficult with a sloop or cutter? One of these days we will end up in the soft mud but the only risk will be to our pride so why not practice? The answer to this question would probably not be a major factor in selecting our next boat but to me it is an interesting data point and the answer to me would reveal a lot about a boats handling in close quarters.

 

All the best,

 

James

 

Bob,

 

Thanks again for taking the time to respond to my posts, I am sure that you have a lot of demands on your time.

All the best,

 

James

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I agree with Nobody. Tacking up a three boat length wide channel would be very iffy in a N44. It would be fun to try. The mast is forward in a sloop like location so the 44 probably sails OK under main alone. I've never tried it. It is not a cutter and never was intended to be a cutter.

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I agree with Nobody. Tacking up a three boat length wide channel would be very iffy in a N44. It would be fun to try. The mast is forward in a sloop like location so the 44 probably sails OK under main alone. I've never tried it. It is not a cutter and never was intended to be a cutter.

Bob,

 

I honestly did not expect the answer to be yes in being able to tack up such a narrow channel with the N44, so "very iffy" is actually very encouraging response. If it turned out that the boat was limited to being able to tack up say a 5 boat length channel, I would still be very happy. At least one of the other boats on my list would likely not even be able to tack up an even wider channel. If I end up with the N44, I will be sure to give you my input on how she sails under main alone and every other sail combination. I will even promise to send a photo of the boat in the mud if I blow it trying to tack out of our 3 boat length channel! (grin)

 

Is there no provision to set a storm staysail on the N44? I have found sloops to be difficult to balance when reefed in storm conditions due to the CE of the main moving forward when deeply reefed and the very forward CE of a storm jib set all of the way out on the forestay. In addition, assuming roller furling for the headsail, the options appear to be either to roll a sail designed for light air way down leaving the remaining SA high up off of the deck or to remove the light air sail from the furler and change it out for the storm jib. The position of the forward end of the Vee berth bulkhead makes it look problematic for providing a method to carry the inner forestay loads down to the hull but I am getting ahead of myself.. I am becoming more fond of this design so I really hope that there is a solution.

 

BTW, I may have located an N44 on the East Coast which can be chartered, I have already made an inquiry.

 

Thanks again Bob, you have been very helpful.

 

James

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Loki:

I never worry about the center of pressure moving forward in a blow. In fact that's what I want. That's why reef the main first, reduce heel and reduce helm. I also think that is why the Solent rig works well, It keeps the center of pressure of the jib forward. With the relatively short J of the N44 I would think a Solent arrangement with the staysail tack well forward would be the best.

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Loki, the N44 sails OK on main alone. If you don't have much wind it can be hard to complete a tack without a head sail but not impossible. The key is a slow turn but that requires enough speed to complete the tack.

 

I can't really give you a total picture of how the boats sails because it would be based on my own personal experiences which are going to be a lot different than yours. You have the right idea. Sail one yourself and see what it is like.

 

You asked about light air performance. What I meant is that if you can get the boat moving it will stay moving. I guess that means low drag? I read Bob's book and now I know what I don't know so I won't even try to explain that stuff. Anyway, it's not a boat that you can sail in 2-3 knots maybe (I'm not the patient sort) but in 5-8 it is better than most people would expect given the displacement.

 

I saw one N44 that had what I assume was a Solent rig option installed. Below decks at the forward end of the v-berth there was a strut installed up to the underside of the deck to take the load of the stay. It didn't really intrude on the space much at all. I don't recall where stay was attached on the mast. My mast has a tang just below the top spreaders for a baby stay. It also has check stays at the top spreaders. I do not have the baby stay however. One boat on my dock does and it terminates onto a track just aft of the forward hatch. The mast section is stout and the check stays minimize pumping. I may rig a synthetic one some day.

 

Once you get the boat moving in reverse it tracks true. I have, under duress, backed all he way out of our locks without hardly a wobble (tough day at the locks). I just seem to screw up in the marina when there are people to see it.

 

Bob's point on reefing the main is exactly what works. This boat will continue to sail with the rail in the water but it is not faster that way. Reef the main and life is all good again with out having to change head sails or roller reef and end up with some crappy looking head sail. BTW, if you want a 100-110% head sail with a low tack you will probably have to add track for it. I did.

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I just seem to screw up in the marina when there are people to see it.

 

At least that's my story and I'm sticking with it. ;)

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Loki:

I never worry about the center of pressure moving forward in a blow. In fact that's what I want. That's why reef the main first, reduce heel and reduce helm. I also think that is why the Solent rig works well, It keeps the center of pressure of the jib forward. With the relatively short J of the N44 I would think a Solent arrangement with the staysail tack well forward would be the best.

Bob,

Am I understanding you correctly that the N44 generates enough weather helm when heeled at a moderate (assumption based on the reefed main reducing the heel, perhaps I am assuming wrong and if so correct me.) angle of heel to offset moving the CE on both the main and the jib forward to still retain a weather helm to the extent indicated above? Most of the sloops that I have sailed with deeply reefed mainsails and a jib forward ended up with a lee helm of some degree and proved difficult to tack since the lee helm would increase as the boat began to straighten up. This may not be the case for the N44, so I am just trying to clarify. I will explore the Solent rig option, thanks for the suggestion.

 

By the way, it turns on that the N44 on the East coast is said to have a cutter rig so I assume that it must have been a customer modification. It looks like it would require a tension member running right down through the middle of the Vee berth to transmit the stay loads properly so I am not sure how this was accomplished.

 

Thanks,

 

James

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Loki, the N44 sails OK on main alone. If you don't have much wind it can be hard to complete a tack without a head sail but not impossible. The key is a slow turn but that requires enough speed to complete the tack.

 

I can't really give you a total picture of how the boats sails because it would be based on my own personal experiences which are going to be a lot different than yours. You have the right idea. Sail one yourself and see what it is like.

 

You asked about light air performance. What I meant is that if you can get the boat moving it will stay moving. I guess that means low drag? I read Bob's book and now I know what I don't know so I won't even try to explain that stuff. Anyway, it's not a boat that you can sail in 2-3 knots maybe (I'm not the patient sort) but in 5-8 it is better than most people would expect given the displacement.

 

I saw one N44 that had what I assume was a Solent rig option installed. Below decks at the forward end of the v-berth there was a strut installed up to the underside of the deck to take the load of the stay. It didn't really intrude on the space much at all. I don't recall where stay was attached on the mast. My mast has a tang just below the top spreaders for a baby stay. It also has check stays at the top spreaders. I do not have the baby stay however. One boat on my dock does and it terminates onto a track just aft of the forward hatch. The mast section is stout and the check stays minimize pumping. I may rig a synthetic one some day.

 

Once you get the boat moving in reverse it tracks true. I have, under duress, backed all he way out of our locks without hardly a wobble (tough day at the locks). I just seem to screw up in the marina when there are people to see it.

 

Bob's point on reefing the main is exactly what works. This boat will continue to sail with the rail in the water but it is not faster that way. Reef the main and life is all good again with out having to change head sails or roller reef and end up with some crappy looking head sail. BTW, if you want a 100-110% head sail with a low tack you will probably have to add track for it. I did.

Wow, thanks again for the additional input on the N44. I completely understand that opinion and personal experiences can colour the information that you have provided and that is not a problem. At this stage my goal is to learn enough about the design to decide if I want to get serious enough to start spending $$ on travel and such to see and sail one so what you have provided has been very helpful to me.

 

My question about how a boat carries seems to often be misunderstood, which is why I though I would ask about the light air sailing and if she tended to keep moving through the lulls or would just run out of energy and stop like some boats do. How well a boat will carry seems like it should be a very simple thing to guess about the design of a boat but I have been so wrong about it so many times that I have pretty much stopped trying to guess! Low hull resistance combined with a good bit of mass should it seems to be create a boat that will carry well but I have sailed on plenty that just don't and lighter boats that carried far better. It seems in general that the more deeply immersed hulls tend to have the best carry but I am not sure of the exact reason why. Carry is important to me for manuvers such as coasting up to a mooring etc. since the better the carry, the more time you have to prepare, manuver etc. It also affects the boat speed remaining after making a tack and also helps determine the upper limit to how much wind/wave the boat can be tacked in.

 

I would be very curious to know if the check stays are a requirement to keep the rig in column from a structural point of view? How often do you tend to use them? It appears that the spar is well supported at the lower spreaders by the fore/aft lowers? Excuse my ignorance about baby stays, but is the track on your friends boat used to allow the stay to be drawn aft when not needed and tensioned when slid forward, or is this used to induce mast bend to flatten the main? I have synthetic running backs on my Loki and just love them. The are so light and don't seem to chafe the sail, a great way to go IMO.

 

That is really great that the boat can be controlled in reverse once the speed is sufficient, very helpful to know! Some boats seem to be about as stable in reverse as an arrow flying backwards..once they get off course the slightest amount the turn continues to tighten regardless of what you do with the rudder! In dealing with the prop walk that you mentioned when in reverse and before you have control, it might be possible to first insure that the boat is rotating in the direction against the prop walk in an attempt to cancel out the effect before backing. In calm water away from hard things, what I would try is getting the boat turning in forward against the prop walk effect, going into reverse and seeing if it helped. If so, try different rotation rates and see if you can find one that is just right.

 

I think that the reason that we screw up when people are watching us is because we are looking to SEE if people are watching instead of driving our boat! (grin)

 

Thanks for telling me what seems to work for higher wind sailing on your boat. Sailing with the rail in the water is pretty uncomfortable, especially when you are cruising. What is the most wind that you have sailed your boat in?

 

All the best,

 

James

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James: Zero lee helm on the N44 unless you were doing something really weird. I have found lee helm on almost none of my boats except in very, very light air and that was only on two boats, one being NIGHT RUNNER which by any standard is a great boat. Pretty sure that was tuned out years ago. The helm feel and balance of the N44 is about as good as it gets.

 

Of course this assumes good sail shape.

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James: Zero lee helm on the N44 unless you were doing something really weird. I have found lee helm on almost none of my boats except in very, very light air and that was only on two boats, one being NIGHT RUNNER which by any standard is a great boat. Pretty sure that was tuned out years ago. The helm feel and balance of the N44 is about as good as it gets.

 

Of course this assumes good sail shape.

"The helm feel and balance of the N44 is about as good as it gets." Got it, thanks! James

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Loki, the N44 sails OK on main alone. If you don't have much wind it can be hard to complete a tack without a head sail but not impossible. The key is a slow turn but that requires enough speed to complete the tack.

 

I can't really give you a total picture of how the boats sails because it would be based on my own personal experiences which are going to be a lot different than yours. You have the right idea. Sail one yourself and see what it is like.

 

You asked about light air performance. What I meant is that if you can get the boat moving it will stay moving. I guess that means low drag? I read Bob's book and now I know what I don't know so I won't even try to explain that stuff. Anyway, it's not a boat that you can sail in 2-3 knots maybe (I'm not the patient sort) but in 5-8 it is better than most people would expect given the displacement.

 

I saw one N44 that had what I assume was a Solent rig option installed. Below decks at the forward end of the v-berth there was a strut installed up to the underside of the deck to take the load of the stay. It didn't really intrude on the space much at all. I don't recall where stay was attached on the mast. My mast has a tang just below the top spreaders for a baby stay. It also has check stays at the top spreaders. I do not have the baby stay however. One boat on my dock does and it terminates onto a track just aft of the forward hatch. The mast section is stout and the check stays minimize pumping. I may rig a synthetic one some day.

 

Once you get the boat moving in reverse it tracks true. I have, under duress, backed all he way out of our locks without hardly a wobble (tough day at the locks). I just seem to screw up in the marina when there are people to see it.

 

Bob's point on reefing the main is exactly what works. This boat will continue to sail with the rail in the water but it is not faster that way. Reef the main and life is all good again with out having to change head sails or roller reef and end up with some crappy looking head sail. BTW, if you want a 100-110% head sail with a low tack you will probably have to add track for it. I did.

Wow, thanks again for the additional input on the N44. I completely understand that opinion and personal experiences can colour the information that you have provided and that is not a problem. At this stage my goal is to learn enough about the design to decide if I want to get serious enough to start spending $$ on travel and such to see and sail one so what you have provided has been very helpful to me.

 

My question about how a boat carries seems to often be misunderstood, which is why I though I would ask about the light air sailing and if she tended to keep moving through the lulls or would just run out of energy and stop like some boats do. How well a boat will carry seems like it should be a very simple thing to guess about the design of a boat but I have been so wrong about it so many times that I have pretty much stopped trying to guess! Low hull resistance combined with a good bit of mass should it seems to be create a boat that will carry well but I have sailed on plenty that just don't and lighter boats that carried far better. It seems in general that the more deeply immersed hulls tend to have the best carry but I am not sure of the exact reason why. Carry is important to me for manuvers such as coasting up to a mooring etc. since the better the carry, the more time you have to prepare, manuver etc. It also affects the boat speed remaining after making a tack and also helps determine the upper limit to how much wind/wave the boat can be tacked in.

 

I would be very curious to know if the check stays are a requirement to keep the rig in column from a structural point of view? How often do you tend to use them? It appears that the spar is well supported at the lower spreaders by the fore/aft lowers? Excuse my ignorance about baby stays, but is the track on your friends boat used to allow the stay to be drawn aft when not needed and tensioned when slid forward, or is this used to induce mast bend to flatten the main? I have synthetic running backs on my Loki and just love them. The are so light and don't seem to chafe the sail, a great way to go IMO.

 

That is really great that the boat can be controlled in reverse once the speed is sufficient, very helpful to know! Some boats seem to be about as stable in reverse as an arrow flying backwards..once they get off course the slightest amount the turn continues to tighten regardless of what you do with the rudder! In dealing with the prop walk that you mentioned when in reverse and before you have control, it might be possible to first insure that the boat is rotating in the direction against the prop walk in an attempt to cancel out the effect before backing. In calm water away from hard things, what I would try is getting the boat turning in forward against the prop walk effect, going into reverse and seeing if it helped. If so, try different rotation rates and see if you can find one that is just right.

 

I think that the reason that we screw up when people are watching us is because we are looking to SEE if people are watching instead of driving our boat! (grin)

 

Thanks for telling me what seems to work for higher wind sailing on your boat. Sailing with the rail in the water is pretty uncomfortable, especially when you are cruising. What is the most wind that you have sailed your boat in?

 

All the best,

 

James

 

Nobody,

Thanks again for all of your helpful input. There is an N44 on the East Coast for sale that has already been put away for the winter. I will be looking at he next season when she is recommissioned. The boat has been available for charter as well so there might be a chance to work out a sail. I hope that you get your big sailing trip in.

 

Have fun!

 

James

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One of the benefits of living in a warmer climate; we don't have to put our boats away. Although in the PNW we do have to scrub off the moss and algae once in a while.

 

You asked about the baby stay's purpose. I'm not a rig designer so I'm repeating what I have read or been told. The intent here is to provide stability (fore and aft) at the upper spreaders. From my observations in most conditions it is not required with this mast. The check stays can be used upwind to limit forward movement and with proper back stay tension on I would not expect a lot of pumping. This mast section appears to be pretty heavy, especially compared to rigs you see on newer designs. Since buying this boat I have not been off shore beyond the delivery from CA and that was interrupted. The sea states in Puget Sound are generally benign so we don't even think much about mast pump issues. Having a baby stay on would be a pain for us racing anyway. I don't know if Bob designed the rig but he might know if the the baby stay is an essential item or just something useful for certain types of sailing with this specific rig.

 

I don't know how that boat on the East Coast could be a cutter unless they added a bowsprit and that would be weird. If you want a cutter, buy one. This is a sloop. Better yet, when you get closer to your decision time invest in a consultation with Bob to help you pick the right boat. I will next time. I won't ever be able to build my own from scratch but having someone as knowledgeable as Bob helping you make an unbiased assessment is huge.

 

While there are not a lot of these around I have, at times, seen as many as 3 on the market at once. Bob already mentioned one nice boat in Seattle. There is usually one or two in the PNW available. They have been holding their value here with price varying 20-30K. The level of equipment can vary significantly. The prices on the East coast always seemed lower to me but they always looked less well cared for. Don't know why that would be.

 

I'm not in Seattle full time right now but if you ever are in the city PM me and if I can I would be happy to take you and your wife out sailing.

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One of the benefits of living in a warmer climate; we don't have to put our boats away. Although in the PNW we do have to scrub off the moss and algae once in a while.

 

You asked about the baby stay's purpose. I'm not a rig designer so I'm repeating what I have read or been told. The intent here is to provide stability (fore and aft) at the upper spreaders. From my observations in most conditions it is not required with this mast. The check stays can be used upwind to limit forward movement and with proper back stay tension on I would not expect a lot of pumping. This mast section appears to be pretty heavy, especially compared to rigs you see on newer designs. Since buying this boat I have not been off shore beyond the delivery from CA and that was interrupted. The sea states in Puget Sound are generally benign so we don't even think much about mast pump issues. Having a baby stay on would be a pain for us racing anyway. I don't know if Bob designed the rig but he might know if the the baby stay is an essential item or just something useful for certain types of sailing with this specific rig.

 

I don't know how that boat on the East Coast could be a cutter unless they added a bowsprit and that would be weird. If you want a cutter, buy one. This is a sloop. Better yet, when you get closer to your decision time invest in a consultation with Bob to help you pick the right boat. I will next time. I won't ever be able to build my own from scratch but having someone as knowledgeable as Bob helping you make an unbiased assessment is huge.

 

While there are not a lot of these around I have, at times, seen as many as 3 on the market at once. Bob already mentioned one nice boat in Seattle. There is usually one or two in the PNW available. They have been holding their value here with price varying 20-30K. The level of equipment can vary significantly. The prices on the East coast always seemed lower to me but they always looked less well cared for. Don't know why that would be.

 

I'm not in Seattle full time right now but if you ever are in the city PM me and if I can I would be happy to take you and your wife out sailing.

Nobody,

 

I definitely would like the ability to be able to set storm sails inboard of the headstay but as was pointed out the Solent rig might be an option. My preference actually would be a yawl rig but those just aren't available on the type of boat that I want, so it will be either a sloop or a cutter. I can understand the efficiency advantages of the sloop and know that you cannot have it all. In looking at the photos of the East Coast N44, it appears that a stainless plate was bolted to the chain locker bulkhead and run aft several feet. I do not understand the design concept so far since I don't see any tension members in the photos running down to the hull. This would mean that the deck structure is having to handle all of the vertical loading. Must a strong deck since the owner says that the rig has been in place now for 17 years though I do not know how much he has loaded it up.

 

I am still learning about rig design as well. I thought that baby stays normally took the place of the forward lowers and attached at the lower spreaders but it makes sense that they should oppose the check stays as set up on your boat. I suspect that your position, that you probably don't need to use the baby stay in fairly protected waters is accurate. The Hylas 44 that I am looking at has the more modern rig common on the German Frers designs with the single lower port and stb. with the baby stay at the lower spreader. With the only fore/aft support being the masthead and where the spar passes through the cabin top, I can imagine that check stays/running backs would be far more critical. I like the rig design on the N44 a lot more.

 

Many thanks for the offer to take us sailing sometime. I really like the Seattle area, have friends there but don't get out that way enough. If it turns out that I need to get the sail in before next season to make a decision or cannot arrange a sail on the East Coast, I will take you up on that. If that happens I will make sure that you will benefit from it in someway too, I don't want to take advantage.

 

The suggestion to hire Bob for the consultation is a good one IMO. Keep in mind that I am probably 1-2 years from needing our new boat and have three designs that I am looking at currently. If I decide to go with a Perry design then as I indicated I will definitely be hiring Bob. I would also be glad to send him $100 or so to say thanks for his help to date which could perhaps go towards the consultation if I decide to go that route. Bob, if you are reading this, you can contact me about whether this sounds fair and how to get it handled. I also want to look into getting his book, can you give me the title?

 

All the best,

 

James

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"Yacht Design According to Perry"

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"Yacht Design According to Perry"

Thanks SloopJonB, on it's way through Amazon. James

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In looking at the photos of the East Coast N44, it appears that a stainless plate was bolted to the chain locker bulkhead and run aft several feet. I do not understand the design concept so far since I don't see any tension members in the photos running down to the hull. >> I'd be willing to bet they put a strut below deck. Maybe it is removable? The end of v-berth is the aft end of the chain locker. There is an access door into the space below the anchor well where the chain fall is. A diagonal coming down from above would really be a small intrusion into your v-berth but it would be in the way of the locker door. They could also have run a bridging member athwart ships and tied into the hull in some manner. You have to look closely at that some time.

 

I wouldn't limit Bob's advice to Perry designs. That's not what he does in those consultations from what I understand. You have lots of time to think about it. Enjoy the book.

 

All you have to do when you come sailing with my crew is maybe bring something to eat and drink to share. A little sunshine is nice but that's a lot to ask.

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Mmmmm... The 40 and the 44 are my "lottery boats".

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LY,

Interesting first thread.

 

We are coming up on our third year of our Nordic 44 project. As N.R as stated, taking on a +30 year old furniture hauler is a wild ride, which starts with an appreciation/coveting of the original design, to the reality of 30 years of previous owners to the mission YOU want to accomplish. All of these are constantly in state of flux while pushing what we think is forward.

 

My initial lusting started in the late '80's as the last Nordics were being commissioned in a slip about 50 feet from my little 26 ft slip. Add my partner's 20 year successful ULDB racing campaign and it was a toxic addiction at first sighting.

 

Sailing Performance - You will find Perry production designs contain very powerful sail plans targeted to windward sailing. The Nordics lead the pack. With their relatively narrow beams, tall masts and inboard mounted chainplates, the headsail sheeting angles rival the Olson 30. No wonder it goes to weather. IMHO the original rod rigging design contains the only acceptable safety factors and proven blue water performance.

 

Sail Area and Sheet Loads - Again coming from an Olson 30 perspective, these are exponentially greater. For a couple or singlehanding, loading and unloading the sheet loads precludes such actions as short tacking a narrow channel. Our new main contains nearly 500 SF which nearly equals the entire sail area of the Olson.

 

No denying, it is fast, very controllable under all points of sail and underway with the auxiliary. The two of us did 1400 nm from Bellingham to Skagway in ten days. This included 300 nm offshore in the Gulf of Alaska with the wind on the nose.

 

Again, these are +30 yo boats whose previous owners have made modifications, some with Bob's guidance some not. I still think Bob's first run at it got it the most right. Very few of the mods I have seen added anything worth the time and expense. For that reason alone, I would highly recommend Bob's consultation to identify the mods since production. Additionally, together with Perry's records and elephant memory Norstar Yachts has the original tooling and some more elephant memories available on the original build techniques and procedures by hull number.

 

Another Nordic Captive(ain)

John

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In looking at the photos of the East Coast N44, it appears that a stainless plate was bolted to the chain locker bulkhead and run aft several feet. I do not understand the design concept so far since I don't see any tension members in the photos running down to the hull. >> I'd be willing to bet they put a strut below deck. Maybe it is removable? The end of v-berth is the aft end of the chain locker. There is an access door into the space below the anchor well where the chain fall is. A diagonal coming down from above would really be a small intrusion into your v-berth but it would be in the way of the locker door. They could also have run a bridging member athwart ships and tied into the hull in some manner. You have to look closely at that some time.

 

I wouldn't limit Bob's advice to Perry designs. That's not what he does in those consultations from what I understand. You have lots of time to think about it. Enjoy the book.

 

All you have to do when you come sailing with my crew is maybe bring something to eat and drink to share. A little sunshine is nice but that's a lot to ask.

Nobody, Yes, I thought of the tension member being removable but there does not appear to be anything to attach one too. It does look to me like the deck is taking all of the uplift from the stay. I asked the owner about it, but did not get a response. Here is the link to the ad, there is only one photo of the Vee berth that shows the overhead: http://www.wellingtonyachts.com/yachts/nordic-44-for-sale-quintessence

 

I will keep the advice in mind, thanks.

 

Well, I would probably be coming up from Florida so maybe I can bring some of that "canned" sunshine that they sell at the tourist traps. (grin) That is a very nice offer, really appreciated. Maybe a nice dinner afterwards or something.

 

All the best,

 

James

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Loki, it is very hard to tell from the photos. A strut could come down and go between the cushions down to a point below the chain locker door. That is about where the one was on the boat I saw in Seattle.

 

I see that it is a 1981 model boat. Not certain but you may want to inquire about some modifications done to some early boats to bulkhead attachment. Again, this is something you can look into when you get serious. I do not remember the details I'm afraid. The folks at Norstar will know. I looked at one boat that had this work done and I was told this was the case. I have no other validation of this.

 

I wish I had that fold up table in the salon. Mine has fold down leaves but I'd much prefer something that folded completely out of the way. Another difference in the older models is the lack of enclosure for the aft cabin. You may or may not prefer that. I like having it enclosed with a door. This one and other early ones the cabin was open and a bit exposed to the companionway. The flip side is I suppose you get more air flow back there.

 

Piper, that sounds like a great trip except for the "on the nose part". My standing joke is that by the time I sell mine more than 50% of the boat will have been replaced with new stuff. Such is life with old boats. At least the core is solid although I did end up peeling the bottom this year. I could have ignored it but that's not my way. I'll up your 500 square feet. We have a 150% racing genoa getting sewn up now. I don't have the sq. ft. number handy but it's a lot. Tired of trying to make do with a heavy, roller furling cruising sail in our light air, and watching others slip away. Fingers crossed it is magic in the light stuff we have so much of around the PNW.

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Loki, it is very hard to tell from the photos. A strut could come down and go between the cushions down to a point below the chain locker door. That is about where the one was on the boat I saw in Seattle.

 

I see that it is a 1981 model boat. Not certain but you may want to inquire about some modifications done to some early boats to bulkhead attachment. Again, this is something you can look into when you get serious. I do not remember the details I'm afraid. The folks at Norstar will know. I looked at one boat that had this work done and I was told this was the case. I have no other validation of this.

 

I wish I had that fold up table in the salon. Mine has fold down leaves but I'd much prefer something that folded completely out of the way. Another difference in the older models is the lack of enclosure for the aft cabin. You may or may not prefer that. I like having it enclosed with a door. This one and other early ones the cabin was open and a bit exposed to the companionway. The flip side is I suppose you get more air flow back there.

 

Piper, that sounds like a great trip except for the "on the nose part". My standing joke is that by the time I sell mine more than 50% of the boat will have been replaced with new stuff. Such is life with old boats. At least the core is solid although I did end up peeling the bottom this year. I could have ignored it but that's not my way. I'll up your 500 square feet. We have a 150% racing genoa getting sewn up now. I don't have the sq. ft. number handy but it's a lot. Tired of trying to make do with a heavy, roller furling cruising sail in our light air, and watching others slip away. Fingers crossed it is magic in the light stuff we have so much of around the PNW.

Nobody,

I will be calling the owner of the 1981 model soon and will get the straight scoop on whether there is a strut or any other tension member that can be added.

 

The table for our Loki folds up into a box on the bulkhead so is completely out of the way, I really like that setup as well. Thanks for the tip about the aft cabin enclosure option.

 

How deep did you have to go when you peeled the bottom?

 

James

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LY,

Interesting first thread.

 

We are coming up on our third year of our Nordic 44 project. As N.R as stated, taking on a +30 year old furniture hauler is a wild ride, which starts with an appreciation/coveting of the original design, to the reality of 30 years of previous owners to the mission YOU want to accomplish. All of these are constantly in state of flux while pushing what we think is forward.

 

My initial lusting started in the late '80's as the last Nordics were being commissioned in a slip about 50 feet from my little 26 ft slip. Add my partner's 20 year successful ULDB racing campaign and it was a toxic addiction at first sighting.

 

Sailing Performance - You will find Perry production designs contain very powerful sail plans targeted to windward sailing. The Nordics lead the pack. With their relatively narrow beams, tall masts and inboard mounted chainplates, the headsail sheeting angles rival the Olson 30. No wonder it goes to weather. IMHO the original rod rigging design contains the only acceptable safety factors and proven blue water performance.

 

Sail Area and Sheet Loads - Again coming from an Olson 30 perspective, these are exponentially greater. For a couple or singlehanding, loading and unloading the sheet loads precludes such actions as short tacking a narrow channel. Our new main contains nearly 500 SF which nearly equals the entire sail area of the Olson.

 

No denying, it is fast, very controllable under all points of sail and underway with the auxiliary. The two of us did 1400 nm from Bellingham to Skagway in ten days. This included 300 nm offshore in the Gulf of Alaska with the wind on the nose.

 

Again, these are +30 yo boats whose previous owners have made modifications, some with Bob's guidance some not. I still think Bob's first run at it got it the most right. Very few of the mods I have seen added anything worth the time and expense. For that reason alone, I would highly recommend Bob's consultation to identify the mods since production. Additionally, together with Perry's records and elephant memory Norstar Yachts has the original tooling and some more elephant memories available on the original build techniques and procedures by hull number.

 

Another Nordic Captive(ain)

John

John,

 

It was good to get your perspective and input.

 

The stock working sail for the N44 is only about 25% more than my current boat but the foretriangle is a much larger percentage of the total. A part of learning to sail in close quarters is figuring out the best sails to use for a particular situation which generally preclude anything overlapping but not always. Sometimes I set up for balance, but there are situations such as getting the CE as far forward as possible to rotate the boat essentially in it's own length with just a backed jib is the thing to do. I do this with my Loki whenever I have a downwind situation leaving the mooring since there is not enough channel width to turn the boat around under full sail. I have found that well designed and easily driven boats can usually be sailed with good control with only a fraction of full sail and this can be desirable when top speed is not wanted. So there are lots of options and I will just need to get used to whatever new boat we end up with and see what I am comfortable with. I really enjoy the process of getting to know my boat really well.

 

Have you posted anything about your three year restoration project on your N44? If not maybe a short list of those projects?

 

Thanks,

 

James

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I don't have the paperwork with me which says how deep the peel was. It was not a lot. The blistering was not bad but it was distributed around the boat and a few of the blisters were oozing. I was in the yard for a quality finish on the bottom so I was faced with a decision of either not getting that and just painting over the blisters after the usual sanding of the coats of crap already on the boat or peeling to end up with a like new finish. Knowing I will have the boat and hopefully but a few thousand miles on it I opted to spend the money on the peel. The results were as you would expect, beautiful. We can't blame the bottom for any poor results and again, in our light air conditions, bottom condition matters more. There are a couple photos in my gallery of the work in progress.

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Loki

I believe the deck fitting you are enquiring was originally positioned as the symmetrical spinny pole downhaul.

 

As asymmetricals have come to the fore, the fitting has been converted to use for an inner stay. Due to the robustness of deck construction, the proximity of the windlass locker aft wall and the small loads from small non-lapping sail usually employed I don't know if any that have provided additional modification. Ours was fitted with a high clew staysail on a furler with a foil contained halyard.

In our offshore testing, the sheet loads were minimal, worked great fore reaching or heaving to in a blow. It has been a major problem jibing or tacking the headsail.

 

We are hull #3, a low mileage (5k nm) highly modified for coastal cruising when purchased. After each years modifications we have done a shakedown run to Alaska totaling 5k nm under the keel. The goal is comfortable, safe long distance passage making. Our shakedown cruises have pointed out the differences between passage making and coastal cruising and the additional stresses on structures and systems. We have relied heavily on the resources of the original builder. The major tasks include portlight and hatch polycarbonate replacement, mast step rebuild, non-skid replacement, lazerette covers and hardware replacement, mid guard replacement, winch farm rechrome, genset rebuild and re install for bluewater, split backstay with Navtec adjuster and transom modification with boarding steps.

 

Each has a story, but the dividends returned in the places she has taken us only have whetted our appetites.

 

John

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I don't have the paperwork with me which says how deep the peel was. It was not a lot. The blistering was not bad but it was distributed around the boat and a few of the blisters were oozing. I was in the yard for a quality finish on the bottom so I was faced with a decision of either not getting that and just painting over the blisters after the usual sanding of the coats of crap already on the boat or peeling to end up with a like new finish. Knowing I will have the boat and hopefully but a few thousand miles on it I opted to spend the money on the peel. The results were as you would expect, beautiful. We can't blame the bottom for any poor results and again, in our light air conditions, bottom condition matters more. There are a couple photos in my gallery of the work in progress.

Glad to hear that the peel job went well and that they didn't have to go too deep. I will have a look at your gallery, thanks for the tip. James

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If that looks dated, then I guess I love dated. :D (Is this a sign I am getting old?)

 

I would love to see what you would come up with if you had to design the Nordic 40/44 of today.

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Maui:

Me to. But nobody is asking.

I'd reduce the bow overhang just a bit. But I would not go plumb. Fucks up ground tackle considerations.

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Maui:

Me to. But nobody is asking.

I'd reduce the bow overhang just a bit. But I would not go plumb. Fucks up ground tackle considerations.

So, for the same displacement, extend the WL and reshape the canoe body a bit or shorten the LOA?

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One of the single best days i ever had sailing was on a Nordic 40, in a local race against a C&C 39 and a C&C 40- we bested both close tacking on an upwind leg in Casco Bay with a group of friends including a young woman who died much too young. I think of that day often, especially because of her, as she is frozen in time now, while everything else but her and the boat has aged so.

 

Thanks Bob, sweet boat.

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Maui:

Me to. But nobody is asking.

I'd reduce the bow overhang just a bit. But I would not go plumb. Fucks up ground tackle considerations.

 

Nobody is asking, but...

 

In your free time, do you ever dust off any of your older designs and play "what if?" and maybe do some preliminary sketches of a more modern take on those designs?

Just for yourself, I mean. Or is this not necessary because you have the ability to see it all in your head?

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Ajax:

No, never.

 

In my free time I go fishing or I listen to music or I walk my dog or I go to the boatyard. I never just "play" with a design idea. I need a client to turn those horses loose. I need requirements to give me a direction.

My old designs are just old designs and I have a head full of new designs waiting to get out.

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An interesting insight into the thought process of the Maestro. ;)

Thanks.

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You are welcome Ajax.

 

I had hoped that I laid most of that out in my book. I was trying to explain the role of the client in the creative process. No client, no design. Eben when I was i high school I'd pester my friends, "Tell me what kind of boat you want. Come on tell me!" My designs spring from the seed the client plants.

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I have your book and I've read it, but it was awhile ago and of course I haven't committed it to memory.

I'm sure you get asked these questions repeatedly, sorry for asking you to go through it yet again. :)

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One of the single best days i ever had sailing was on a Nordic 40, in a local race against a C&C 39 and a C&C 40- we bested both close tacking on an upwind leg in Casco Bay with a group of friends including a young woman who died much too young. I think of that day often, especially because of her, as she is frozen in time now, while everything else but her and the boat has aged so.

 

Thanks Bob, sweet boat.

Funny you should relate that story Tuck, as soon as I saw the pic of the Nordic 40, having not thought of one for awhile, I went an looked up the numbers again on a C&C 40 as they were a pretty good production IOR racer/cruiser in their day (I remember chasing one around Block Island in '83 on a Hood 2 tonner), and realized Bob's "cruiser" was likely just as fast or even faster...and though I don't have hull lines, knowing Bob, a fairer set of hull lines than the C&C...might have a bit more wetted surface though...

 

Great looking boat Bob...

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Crash:

Correct, for my eye today a bit too much wetted surface.

Maybe the boats you were racing against were IOR boats. The Nordic 44 and 40 were not designed to the rule and would not have done well sailing to an IOR rating. The sailing length of the N40 compared to the C&C 40 would have favored the Nordic.

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Crash:

Correct, for my eye today a bit too much wetted surface.

Maybe the boats you were racing against were IOR boats. The Nordic 44 and 40 were not designed to the rule and would not have done well sailing to an IOR rating. The sailing length of the N40 compared to the C&C 40 would have favored the Nordic.

Bob, we were racing IOR, and I you're right, the N40 wouldn't have rated as well under the IOR. I was thinking pure boatspeed, and that the two boats made a nice illustration of the speed "cost" of optimizing for the IOR, and the irony that during the IOR, a "cruising" boat could actually be faster boat for boat than the same sized "racing" boat...

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Crash: Bob Babson was the Newport Beach Nordic dealer and a food racer. He claimed he could beat the two tonners with the N44. Makes sense. At a tie when designers were doing all sorts of weird things to the stern I just kept the lines straight and the sections full aft. Not much mystery to that. I'm not even sure the N40 would have rated two ton. It has a big butt.

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For it's day, true. Today she looks svelte and sexy esp compared to the wide sterns and high freeboards you see on current production cruisers. And don't even get me started on the obligatory rectangular ports in the hull. I guess with all her overhang and today's longer waterline length, you're giving up some speed too...

 

I'll take svelte and sexy and either add some loa to make up for the speed, or lose the couple of tenths of a knot for the sake of looking good.

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Thanks for posting that photo Bob. It is nice to see one in a dark color. I like it although the red stripe I would pass on. Some day I need to paint mine as the current Awlgrip is showing its age.

 

I will never do this but I have thought about calling Bob more than once to ask him about converting to a spade rudder. I often wonder how that might change the boat and to what degree. Would any gains outweigh the losses?

 

Don't answer Bob! I still need to talk winches when the time comes and we can discuss rudders on the clock.

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Darn, you all are spoiling my day- I figured it was my skill on the helm that allowed me to squeeze one of them off my weather hip and then break through the other one on a tack. It was my first time sailing a boat bigger than a 210 that was not an old design like my family's Pilot, and my memory wants me to get all the credit. I was brilliant I tells you, brilliant.

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Bob,

Thanks for the SE photo. A couple of years ago we spent five months staring at Sea Escape and the hull and deck molds of the N40 and N44 on a daily basis. As work proceeded on #3, we were constantly doing the "What if....." mind games with the full capabilities and resources sitting there in front of us. We ended up staying our course and only modifying items of original production issues, age and safety enhancements with Sea Escape as our guide.

 

Your original design commission for a cruiser that out performs your V40 in speed, seakindly motion, safety and cabin comfort was a thing of youthful spontaneous genius.

 

In the two Alaskan voyages since we have tested nearly all of the design features.

We have grounded your chunky lead external ballast, taken on a semi-submerged deadhead with the keel stub and skeg, an overhang Sitka spruce in the rigging and the Gulf of Alaska to weather. All the while exceeding speeds under sail and power of vessels with LWL's to 55'.

 

You can cogitate about bow lines, turns of the bilge, and spade rudders all you care to, but each one of your considerations would speed up the laps around the bouys but significantly detract from its performance as a cruiser in bluewater high latitude conditions. Dated???.....my ass!!!!

 

John

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oddly enough....

 

We've decided we aren't powerboaters after all. an 18month experiment - was fine - but just didn't get us excited. I can say it was nice motoring around SF Bay in the afternoon in shorts, but, well, not the same.

 

So as we're cleaning out the boat, walking down the dock, the wife sees a well cared for Nordic 44. What's that? Why not one of those?

 

hmmmm.

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Remember - happy wife, happy life.

 

Let her twist your arm. ;)

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Remember - happy wife, happy life.

 

Let her twist your arm. ;)

 

it's a bit heavy for my taste(i was leaning J130/Sydney 41/Farr 395), but you speak the truth.

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I'm not seeing the dated part. Is everything supposed to look like a Pogo these days?

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No, Elegua, nothing is dated.

 

This is a great thread. I was looking for a good N44 on the west coast last fall. I couldn't find one but I ended up with a very nice N40. We love her.

 

Since then, we've spent time racing on another N40.

 

Great boats!

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Nordic 44 is a bit heavy by today's standards but you get a nice stiff ride, good accommodations and generous tankage. The N44 is one of the nicest feeling boats I have designed. It has great helm balance, is very forgiving and is enjoyable to sail. That said, it is a 30 year old design. It's no Pogo.

120%20LINES_zpsmql3wgba.jpg

 

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it's not the age of the design that would bother me (splendid boats, met one in the 80ies in Papeete, gorgeous in my-distant-memory!) it's the age of the boats for sale...>30years...you'd have to expect some serious aging & need a very good surveyor & some time to bring it up to voyaging standards...(if I were younger...)

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I particularly like the trapeze-shaped sideelevation of the keel with the long keel root; what an important strength-increase of the structure. I wonder how big the efficiency-penalty is... (difficult to mold though, I guess the deep sump at the lead's aft end)

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Tane:

Actually the taper you get with that planform makes it pretty easy to mold. I filled out the foil a bit aft to help with that.

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they still make them - alas the pricetag...

(one of the very best blue-water-couple-take-anywhere-cruiser we ever saw was a Tatoosh 42 to your design in aluminium belonging to an Aussie couple...boat on sale now in Asia, long in the tooth by now too though)

great fan of your (not-pointed-stern) designs I am, Sir!

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That Australian guy ripped me off. He came to Seattle and talked to me about a design like the Tatoosh 42. I took him and his wife to dinner. I gave him some drawings for the Tatoosh just as study plans. No cost to him He left and had the boat built from those plans. ASSHOLE! Never paid me a dime.

 

Do you have a link for that listing?

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Wow! They sure splash my name all over the listing. I can't imagine doing something like that but he's not the first to do it. I have another project like that. The fault is mine for being so generous with my plans and too trusting of people. Oh well, not the end of the world.

 

Thanks much for the link.

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5 minutes ago, Bob Perry said:

Wow! They sure splash my name all over the listing. I can't imagine doing something like that but he's not the first to do it. I have another project like that. The fault is mine for being so generous with my plans and too trusting of people. Oh well, not the end of the world.

Swings and roundabouts.  Be less open and trusting, and you're less likely to be ripped off.  But you'll get less business and be more miserable.

Now you're down one design fee, but the owner who built that boat is a thief.

You got the better side of that encounter.

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17 minutes ago, TwoLegged said:

Swings and roundabouts.  Be less open and trusting, and you're less likely to be ripped off.  But you'll get less business and be more miserable.

Now you're down one design fee, but the owner who built that boat is a thief.

You got the better side of that encounter.

take it as acompliment: nobody would steal plans of a designer they consider shitty.

(I would have a bad feeling all the time having stolen the plans; be looking over my shoulder, awaiting accidents, the lot. definitely bad karma starting a project like that.)

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Shame, Greg Brown is a great Alu builder, I wonder if the owner had someone else draft up plans, I doubt Greg is the sort of guy who would pirate a build.

Still, the "alternative facts" in that ad are interesting, not only claiming the designer, but it also has an 8000 hr BMW diesel they claim is good for another 10,000 hrs!

Shame the broker is in Malaysia, would be interesting to ring them if they were in Oz to talk about false and misleading advertising.

I just searched the local Yachthub for "Perry" boats, there were two HC36's there claiming to be Bob boats. There are always a few Unions around too.

Maybe you could find a lawyer who worked on contingency fees and have some sport Bob.

 

 

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On 10/10/2015 at 9:34 AM, Bob Perry said:

Loki:

You can read about my consultation on my web site at www.perryboat.com

 

Do not worry about how the Nordic 44 sails. It has beautiful helm balance, is close winded and fast. It's like a big pussycat. It does everything the Valiant 40 does and does it all far better. I think it is one of my very best designs. I have a friend with one. She's had it for years and needs to get rid of it now but she loves the boat so much she's putting off selling it.

 

If you are after a cruising boat that is rewarding to sail you could do far worse than a Nordic 44.

I have a customer with one here. He even races it!

Rates 93 with Full size Carbon Genoa and full race chutes.  Very cool boat if I do say so. 

I have said this once and I will say it again, it is on my short list if I ever get to go cruising.

That and the slightly smaller farr 1220.. my .02 

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Too bad there is no effective way to slap a lien on it.

 

"And what if I took your compass ? "

"That would make you a thief. "

Lawrence of Arabia

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5 hours ago, tendegreealex said:

That and the slightly smaller farr 1220.. my .02 

Kotuku set a hook in you, eh? It's a brilliant boat. 

 

If G&J ever sell it, I'll go 50/50 with you. 

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On 5/11/2017 at 11:01 PM, tekton said:

Kotuku set a hook in you, eh? It's a brilliant boat. 

 

If G&J ever sell it, I'll go 50/50 with you. 

A killer boat. 

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8 minutes ago, tendegreealex said:

A killer boat. 

I miss sailing her. Won a lot of races, did many miles. Would be a perfect cruising boat....

KotukuA2.jpg

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From last year's Round the County here in the PNW. An '86 brought up from CA in 2009. I'm the second owner. Interior was in great condition. Slowly replacing or repairing all the rest that wasn't as good as it looked. A lot of new sails from Ballard Sails help get it moving.

RTC_2016_Sunset_Sqr.thumb.JPG.968d52c347022e70142542888dedf5d8.JPG

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Nordic 44 MUCH better sailin boat than Stevens 47, but for cruising The 47 has center cockpit, the one in our town has heat duct. Sailed many ocean miles on both very different. The crew at our local charter company always chose the Hlas 44 for our summer staff party. 

All 3 terrific boats but again very different, depends what you want and also as BP mentioned some 30yrs old or so depends how well maintained. 

I also like Kotuku but seems much racier than the other 3, nonetheless designed to cruise well too:) Cool video of wipeout if Alex will post....

 

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