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As it says on the front page fall is in the air and another iceboat season is on the way! If you haven't ever tried one out put it on your list and make this the year- Sailing them is a blast, racing them is even better!

Even the most rickety old piece of crap iceboat will do 3-4 times the wind speed uphill and down- the more modern boats easily get into the 40-50 mph range, topping out at 60-65mph isn't unheard of. Peeling off around the top mark at these speeds is a rush that's hard to find on soft water-

So hit the web and find your closest organization (Four Lakes Ice Yacht Club in WI, New England Ice Yacht Club in NE are good starting points) and start figuring out how to get a ride this winter- There are clubs all over the northern US and all over Europe as well-

Feel free to PM me if you have any questions-

In the meantime check out a few vids....

Light air day at World Champs last year

 

Onboard for a race from Estonia a few years ago

 

Mark roundings from Worlds in Estonia- medium breeze

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Speaking of figuring out how to get you in a boat, we can talk to you about the opportunity to get your ass in a decent DN this winter if you want to see what it’s about. We’ll tell you what to wear so that you can stay warmer and dryer than many of the cold days you’ve had on soft water.
There are opportunities in iceboating country to check this out, from Montana to Nova Scotia including Minnesota, Wisconsin ,Michigan, and the east coast. Just look for the contact information on the websites and shoot off an email.

More than any class I've ever seen, iceboaters are always eager to share their knowledge.
More video....

2014 DN Western Region championship and Nite Nationals on Green Lake. Hollywood ice.

DNs on Lake Kegonsa near Madison, WI in 2014.

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and for those of you who want big old (and still very fast...) 2 years ago was EPIC conditions on the Hudson

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the video of Bard's band is the best. sailing up on the Hudson is magical..

If you aren't scared to death..logs rocks etc..for a DNer serious obstacles,

for stern steerers a way of life..what a great bunch and so welcoming..doug

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​Looks like fun. Can I ice boat in the Caribbean or some other warm place? :P

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There are several swap meets coming up if you are interested in getting involved in the hard-water world:

 

November 7: New England Ice Yachting Association Meeting / Swap Meet, Westborough, MA. http://theneiya.org/2015/09/22/annual-meeting-2015/

November 7: Minnesota Iceboat Swap Meet in St. Louis Park, MN. http://www.iceboating.net/node/4065

November 7: Gull Lake Ice Yacht Club Annual Swap Meet in Richland, MI. http://www.gulllakeiyc.org/

November 8: Skeeter Ice Boat Club Swap Meet in Williams Bay, WI. http://www.iceboat.org/#swap

 

The season is approaching fast! Hit one of these and find yourself a craft- Cheers, SERGE

 

 

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The Great Western Challenge, North America's first iceboat regatta, is coming up in 15 days!

 

The weather forecast for north-west Minnesota looks promising, despite the very warm fall we've been having up till now (I was sailing last Sunday in 64 degree weather here in Madison...).

 

The traditional site for the GWC, Christina Lake near Ashby, MN, is very shallow so a couple of weeks of cold should be enough to freeze it up.

There are also a gazillion other lakes up there that could be venues for the regatta. It's only been postponed once in its ~20 history.

 

In the the last couple of years the regatta's been held further south, but only three years ago we were up at Ashby for a great three days of sailing.

 

For an informal, un-regatta, there are plenty of sailors. Last year over 100 people came from all over the US, Canada, and Europe.

 

See you on the ice!

 

Cheers,

 

Geoff S.

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Last iceboat season I decided to make a new smaller iceboat that I could use on the smaller lakes around where I live. My goals were to build something that I could transport in the back of my pickup truck, easy to set up with an unstayed rig, be comfortable and warmer than an open cockpit iceboat, be an attractive home builder type project and perform well in multiple wind conditions. I invited a few of the local soft water sailors to sail it last season. Needless to say they were hooked. Since then things have progressed. We are building 6 more of them at the Montana Wooden Boat Foundation for this iceboating season. I decided to make a building tutorial as we build the 6 Mini Skeeter Iceboats. I'm not that great at making the video's, dispite that the info will really help future builders. Video 1 is about cutting out the parts and drawing up the bulkheads. Video 2 Covers making the stem block and seat frame and back. Video 3 we start assembling the fuselage. I will make more video's as the building progress permits. Each video has a link to the next in the info area.

 

If interested here are a few links -

 

Video building series -

 

Facebook page - https://www.facebook.com/groups/556826031132604/?ref=bookmarks

 

Wooden Boat Magazine Launchings - https://www.woodenboat.com/launchings/kestrel-mini-skeeter-iceboat

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John has been designing and building iceboats and landsailers for over twenty years now, and is the current World Champion in the International 5.6 Mini class of landsailing. All of that experience is evident in this Mini Skeeter design, which utilizes the highly refined rig from his championship landsailer, which was developed with Bruce Peterson at Sailworks in the Columbia Gorge. The boat is fast(over 60 mph), comfortable(warm!), aerodynamic, and a reasonable build for the home builder with modest woodworking skills. I sailed alongside him during it's development season last year, and I was impressed enough to build one myself(with his gracious and substantial help!). I'm applying the first coat of varnish today, with hope of her being ready to roll when first ice shows. If you're contemplating this exhilarating wing of our beloved sport, this is worth a look.

 

Dave

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Here's one of John's excellent videos from last season. Shot on Smith Lake, west of Kalispell, MT, in twenty plus knots of breeze. The Airstream is his landsailing mini adapted for ice(prior to building the new design), the rig is the same as that of the new Mini Skeeter, carbon windsurf mast, with a sail constructed like a boardsail, but significantly flatter for reduced drag at the much higher top speeds. The red and yellow boat is my aging Fed 5 landsailer converted to ice.

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=604txtT5JqE

 

Check out John's youtube channel US772 for dozens of great landsailing and iceboating videos.

 

Dave

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Here's another, from Canyon Ferry, east of Helena, MT, the West's premier ice venue. Big water, east of the Divide, which provides cold temps and minimal snow most years. This day was gusting deep into the thirties, and temperatures rose to the high fifties by the end of the day, leaving great sheets of water atop the ice. We started on 4 meter sails, but I was down to my 3 meter by the end of the session, John managing to stay upright with his 4 all day, although you can see him sheeting out furiously on occaision.

 

https://youtube.com/watch?=VO_9ryqfDNU

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Hey you Montana boys. Let us know when you have ice and a ride available. We have beer. (Sheep too, but let's no go into that.)

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Here's one of John's excellent videos from last season. Shot on Smith Lake, west of Kalispell, MT, in twenty plus knots of breeze. The Airstream is his landsailing mini adapted for ice(prior to building the new design), the rig is the same as that of the new Mini Skeeter, carbon windsurf mast, with a sail constructed like a boardsail, but significantly flatter for reduced drag at the much higher top speeds. The red and yellow boat is my aging Fed 5 landsailer converted to ice.

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=604txtT5JqE

 

Check out John's youtube channel US772 for dozens of great landsailing and iceboating videos.

 

Dave

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6O4txtT5JqE

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Here's another, from Canyon Ferry, east of Helena, MT, the West's premier ice venue. Big water, east of the Divide, which provides cold temps and minimal snow most years. This day was gusting deep into the thirties, and temperatures rose to the high fifties by the end of the day, leaving great sheets of water atop the ice. We started on 4 meter sails, but I was down to my 3 meter by the end of the session, John managing to stay upright with his 4 all day, although you can see him sheeting out furiously on occaision.

 

https://youtube.com/watch?=VO_9ryqfDNU

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6O4txtT5JqE

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Hey you Montana boys. Let us know when you have ice and a ride available. We have beer. (Sheep too, but let's no go into that.)

Domestic beer won't do. We are sophisticated beer drinkers and the sheep thing, well you must have us confused with North Dakota.

There is a group from Gull Lake making plans to come sail with us in early January.

We are expecting some cold temps this week. Hope to be sailing soon.

The weather guessers are predicting minimal snow again this season here do to El Nino.

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Hey you Montana boys. Let us know when you have ice and a ride available. We have beer. (Sheep too, but let's no go into that.)

 

Domestic beer won't do. We are sophisticated beer drinkers and the sheep thing, well you must have us confused with North Dakota.

There is a group from Gull Lake making plans to come sail with us in early January.

We are expecting some cold temps this week. Hope to be sailing soon.

The weather guessers are predicting minimal snow again this season here do to El Nino.

Homebrew and some of PNW best craft beers. Domestic big name beers and most imports suck... Now back to ice. Forecast is cold and clear. Ice is a coming.

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Like the craft beers. I live about a mile from # 41 - http://montanabrewers.org/wp-content/uploads/2010/06/MBA-Map-2015-prelim2.pdf

This week looks good for icemaking here. We might be sailing next weekend. The holding ponds near Canyon Ferry froze up enough today.

I'm building up a simple recreational C Skeeter for the bigger lakes. Hope to get it done this season.

Where to you icesail Varan?

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and for those of you who want big old (and still very fast...) 2 years ago was EPIC conditions on the Hudson

 

EPIC!!! Love the big old state-of-the-art ice boats, way cool. Excellent illustrations of balancing the sailing forces at work with minimal structure.

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Give us a better shot of the new boat John!

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Like the craft beers. I live about a mile from # 41 - http://montanabrewers.org/wp-content/uploads/2010/06/MBA-Map-2015-prelim2.pdf

This week looks good for icemaking here. We might be sailing next weekend. The holding ponds near Canyon Ferry froze up enough today.

I'm building up a simple recreational C Skeeter for the bigger lakes. Hope to get it done this season.

Where to you icesail Varan?

Unfortunately, I don't, that's why I'm looking for a ride. Too much snow here, but that's a good thing. Been home brewing for a very long time. Grow all my own hops and we will be doing our own barley too. All natural. Did college in Bozeman and never knew Caynon Ferry was the place for ice. Gosh. And to think I used to play hockey.

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Tom Schock and I iceboating. When I teach people how to iceboat I like to set up a windward leeward course. It really helps them to learn the right angles to sail. Tom is in process of building two Mini Skeeter iceboats. We hope to have seven of them in NW Montana this season. Most are half way built at this point.

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Great sailing on Christina Lake over the weekend, but snow is heading that way now... :(

Maybe up by Thunder Bay next weekend?

 

image_1_7.preview.jpg

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What determines start line position? How do you keep the shoe spikes from tearing up the hull when climbing in?

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What determines start line position?

Iceboating uses a "standing start". The start line has numbered positions separated by about two boat widths (for DNs, 16 feet).

All the boats line up at their designated spot (random for the first race, finish position in the previous race after that) and the race-committee calls the start when everybody is ready.

 

There are some cool animations of the rules at: http://iceboat.org/animation.html

 

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How do you keep the shoe spikes from tearing up the hull when climbing in?

Most people have some sacrificial protectors in the common places that you step (ex. cockpit front, plank next to boat, etc.).

 

Cheers,

 

Geoff S.

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Interesting. A few years back a bunch of us build remote control ice boats and had some races. Without any research, we essentially developed the same system of starts. The only real difference was that we started downwind and sailed toward a leeward mark.

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My buddy Keane and I picked up our new (to us) DN over the weekend. This should make the winter a little more interesting.

 

DN_Iceboat.jpg

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My buddy Keane and I picked up our new (to us) DN over the weekend. This should make the winter a little more interesting.

 

Looks nice! Hopefully you'll have ice soon to take it for a ride.

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Interesting. A few years back a bunch of us build remote control ice boats and had some races. Without any research, we essentially developed the same system of starts. The only real difference was that we started downwind and sailed toward a leeward mark.

RC iceboats were a really hot thing a few years ago.

 

A local guy, Bill Korsgard, designed and built a number of ice and land sailers:

 

128-2884_IMG.JPG125-2587_IMG.JPG

 

12k-1.jpg

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Very little chance of ice boating around here, but it looks like a blast.

 

A couple of questions; in most of those videos the leeward shrouds are very slack and the rig is sagging off to leeward quite noticeably, is that deliberate and fast? I assume it is because otherwise the boats would be set up with tighter shrouds and less sag. Any particular reason why it is quicker?

 

Do the ice boats sail more like catamarans in that you bang a corner and minimise maneuvers, or do you sail like a mono with tactical gybing and tacking?

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Lots going on with a DN mast and platform- very different from a typical soft water set-up!

 

The DN has a ton of sail area at 60 sq ft and in all but the lightest winds the name of the game is shedding power and drag-

 

To this end the masts are very flexible and bend to leeward between the heel and the hounds by a significant (at times alarming!) amount- This explains the slack leeward shrouds-

 

Bending the mast like this does a number of things:

-lines the leech and luff of the sail up parallel, some say this is better aerodynamically

-moves the CE of the rig to leeward, effectively moving the ballast (skipper) to windward for more RM

-provides down-force on leeward runner for traction

-provides a "traveler-up" effect; Moving the luff to leeward by bending the mast has the same effect on angle of attack as pulling the leech to windward with a traveler (think also about sailing an Etchells or J-24 with a slack headstay)

 

The runner plank also flexes quite a bit to absorb vibration and bumps and also to absorb gusts- when a gust hits increased shroud tension causes the plank to bend and this effectively eases the shrouds a bit to allow the rig to bend a little more and let the extra energy from the gust go by and not heel the boat over. Once the gust has gone by the plank straightens out and the rig goes a little tighter and the boat stays in the groove....

 

May sound odd but when you have the flex rate of the rig and plank dialed in the results are amazing- very cool.

 

All in all a very dynamic platform! One of the things that makes these boats so freakin' interesting. That and the fact that this all happens FAST!

 

See http://www.iceboat.org/faqiceboat.htmlor http://theneiya.org/getting-started/ for info on how to get involved- or send me a message here.

 

Cheers! Serge

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In practice slack the side stays when it gets windier. That helps spill a little power and puts more downforce on the boat = better traction less hiking.

In a perfect world of a windward leward race course the less manuevers the better. Some of the biggest gains or losses occur on how one rounds the windward mark.

For hours of fun one design racing with a few friends, lawnchair set up above the weather mark and a couple of beers -

Very little chance of ice boating around here, but it looks like a blast.

 

A couple of questions; in most of those videos the leeward shrouds are very slack and the rig is sagging off to leeward quite noticeably, is that deliberate and fast? I assume it is because otherwise the boats would be set up with tighter shrouds and less sag. Any particular reason why it is quicker?

 

Do the ice boats sail more like catamarans in that you bang a corner and minimise maneuvers, or do you sail like a mono with tactical gybing and tacking

 

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Last iceboat season I decided to make a new smaller iceboat that I could use on the smaller lakes around where I live. My goals were to build something that I could transport in the back of my pickup truck, easy to set up with an unstayed rig, be comfortable and warmer than an open cockpit iceboat, be an attractive home builder type project and perform well in multiple wind conditions. I invited a few of the local soft water sailors to sail it last season. Needless to say they were hooked. Since then things have progressed. We are building 6 more of them at the Montana Wooden Boat Foundation for this iceboating season. I decided to make a building tutorial as we build the 6 Mini Skeeter Iceboats. I'm not that great at making the video's, dispite that the info will really help future builders. Video 1 is about cutting out the parts and drawing up the bulkheads. Video 2 Covers making the stem block and seat frame and back. Video 3 we start assembling the fuselage. I will make more video's as the building progress permits. Each video has a link to the next in the info area.

 

If interested here are a few links -

 

Video building series -

 

Facebook page - https://www.facebook.com/groups/556826031132604/?ref=bookmarks

 

Wooden Boat Magazine Launchings - https://www.woodenboat.com/launchings/kestrel-mini-skeeter-iceboat

http://www.dailyinterlake.com/members/fleet-of-mini-skeeters-taking-shape-at-lakeside-woodshop/article_31f2fefe-9bb5-11e5-9314-af3df1d518b0.html

 

We are making progress with the 6 new iceboats.

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Do the ice boats sail more like catamarans in that you bang a corner and minimise maneuvers, or do you sail like a mono with tactical gybing and tacking?

Maneuvers are generally pretty minimal. It's not so much that you're trying to minimize them, but more that there's just not a lot of time to do much.

 

A DN's downwind VMG is about 30 mph, so on a typical 1 mile course the downwind leg only takes 2 minutes.

Upwind it's a little slower, but the leg still only takes about 3 minutes.

It's hard to fit in more than one extra pair of tacks/gybes per leg.

 

Here's a GPS track from a race last January (wind is coming from the lower LH corner).

In this race there was an unusual amount of tacking/guybing.

IIRC, there was some nasty ice on the upwind right-hand starboard layline (top of the image) and less wind on the far left (lower right of the image).

 

DNIceboatRace.jpg

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Are tackng angles typically greater the 90 degrees?

It depends quite a bit on the conditions. I'm also a fat guy so I tend to sail a bit lower angles up-wind than most people.

 

Here's are tracks from races in high'ish winds on really clean ice (this video).

You can see that when I don't overstand the mark my tacking angle is about 90 degrees.

http://geoff-s.net/tracks/2015-01-01_DN_Kegonsa.html

2015-01-01_DN_KegonsaRace2.png

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BTW, you can see from the increasing speed on the starbord tack approaches to the windward mark (lower left corner) that I pretty much overstood every time... :(

 

The only upwind tacks that I seem to have sailed OK, were from the starboard-tack start and the first port-tack leg across the course.

The angle between those two legs is even maybe a bit bigger than 90 degrees.

 

If you look at the interactive track, you will also see a gray line about 100' long during one of my downwind legs that looks like a GPS glitch.

Nope, that's when I spun out, gybed, and ended up pointing in the right direction...

...didn't loose much speed either...

 

I really should learn how to sail...

 

Cheers,

 

Geoff S.

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We sailed the DN Western Region Championship regatta last weekend on Green Lake in Spicer, Minnesota.

The ice was insanely hard and fast.

 

Saturday's wind started out at 20-30 mph so the racing was more than a bit hairy.

The first Gold-Fleet race went off with minimal carnage, but the Silver-Fleet race was black-flagged after two laps because of disabled boats at the windward and leeward marks.

Racing was delayed after the re-sail of the Silver-Fleet race as the wind shifted around and the RC moved the course. When the wind direction settled down the strength had dropped to a more manageable 15-20 mph and both fleets got in a number of races.

 

Sunday the wind was 7-10 mph and both fleets got in four nearly perfect races before the wind shifted and the RC called the regatta because there wasn't enough time to reset the course and get any more races in.

 

Check out the close racing at 2:30 in the video from Saturday: https://youtu.be/kW9jX8raMuA?t=2m30s

 

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We sailed the DN Western Region Championship regatta last weekend on Green Lake in Spicer, Minnesota.

 

I forgot to mention that Matt Struble won the Gold Fleet in fairly commanding form.

His throw-out was a first.

He won a number of races by over 30 seconds (about 1/4 lap).

 

Results: http://iceboating.net/node/4125

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haaa, i haven;t even taken the dn out of the rafters at my folks house.....but I can still go sailing with the dinghy anytime I want

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We have been building these Mini Skeeters for the iceboating season. We finally had some decent ice and perfect 5 to 15 mph winds to launch them in. Tom Schock MS3, my Dad MS5 and myself US772 had a great time sailing for three days in a remote lake called Freezeout Lake just East of the Rockies near the high line of Montana. Temps were near 40 degrees. I reached 48 mph in wind in the upper teens.

10 Mini Skeeters are done or in some phase of construction at the Montana Wooden Boat Foundation - https://www.facebook.com/montanawoodenboatfoundation/?ref=bookmarks

25 hull and sail numbers have been issued so far in the US Canada and Europe in less than a year. Most of the builders are retired guys that want a comfortable easily managed small wooden iceboat.

 

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We launched a few more Mini Skeeters at Canyon Ferry res. in Montana.https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oJnICN2ob4E Friday brought SW winds 10 to 20. Saturday a front came through in the morning. 25 with gusts to 45 mph. The wind tapered off to 20 to 30 by 2pm so we rigged up and that's when I shot most of the footage. I had a personal best of 60.1 mph and My friends boat Scooter hit 59.8 mph. This is turning out to be a great new class of iceboat. In a years time I've issued 27 hull and sail numbers for those building their own Mini Skeeters. I also got to launch my new C Skeeter wing Boat Wingnut 5. I sailed it a while before a few things loosened up in the control system. I felt it was wise to park it until I can make the proper adjustments. post-22056-0-22972500-1455051400_thumb.jpg post-22056-0-85073500-1455051469_thumb.jpgpost-22056-0-17628100-1455051499_thumb.jpgpost-22056-0-50010600-1455051418_thumb.jpg

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In other iceboating news the World and European Champs were just sailed back-to-back in Sweden a few weeks ago-
About 140 boats for each-

Karol Jablonski of Poland took his tenth(!) World Title and Detroit's Ron Sherry took the European Champs a few days later.

Good breeze and fast ice saw great, high speed racing- all kinds of thrill and spills and chills....

A few hundred GREAT photos here:

http://www.saralin.de/

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On the Mini Skeeter would it make sense to dead end the aft end of the sheet and run the forward end under deck so you're pulling back rather than down? you could then have an interior take up so the sheet end's not flapping about outside.

 

Looks like fun but I'm glad I don't live somewhere cold enough for that ;)

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Yes I think the sheeting can be improved by pulling from more foward like at 1:13 in this video like my dad has done.https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mPSJ0OYj1tU

 

I made a rigging video too that shows more about how the rig works -

 

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6 of 9 in our new local Mini Skeeter fleet sailed on local ice this weekend. I added a spring board to my boat. It made a huge difference in the ride.The ice was soft and slushy, wind 5 to 15 topped out at 40mph.post-22056-0-39681900-1455477795_thumb.jpg

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Were working on it now. We plan on bringing some down for the ALC. We will have 4 for sure. I have to convince one of the others to come to the race to get a one design score as 5 boats constitutes a one design class.

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Do big boys fit in them ? Like say W.O. ?

It looks like I'm going to have to work on an XL ( longer and wider cockpit area) version since several people have asked. My brother and I decked his boat this morning in about 2 hours.

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The DN North American Championship is in Madison, WI this week.

No wind so far today, but here's what it was like Saturday:

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DN North Americans all wrapped up last week in Madison, WI on Lake Monona-

 

Great regatta! Good ice, breeze showed up, fast speeds, good fleet (50 in Gold, 30 in Silver), a group of crazy Europeans showed up, can't ask for much more!

 

Matt Struble took the top spot in the Gold fleet and made it look easy. Ron Sherry was a not-too-distant second ahead of New Englander T. Thieler. Madison Local Dave Elsmo took top spot in silver ahead of Dan Vought and Mike Barnett.brea

 

Check the video by Jim McDonough- see a mast break in the background when Bowie sings "Wham-Bam-Thank-You-Ma'am!"

 

If you haven't tried out an iceboat yet get after it! You won't believe what you've been missing- See theneiya.org orhttp://www.iceboat.org/for info.

 

SERGE

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Love the article on the front page- Well done Patrick, wish I could have gotten away with the Baikal trip this year!

 

Great to see our little corner of the sport on the front page- Thanks to SA for that!

 

If Patrick's article got your attention and you'd like to get involved click http://www.iceboat.org/faqiceboat.htmlor http://theneiya.org/getting-started/ for info on how to get started- or send me a message here.

 

Think Ice! Serge

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Hi Patrick,

many thanks for putting forward such a great written article (today on the FP) about the DN and its subtleties and camaraderie. Your immediate understanding of the complexity of making this great little "boat" going fast, going really fast, does come with your experience and technical understanding. It will make it easy for you to get up to speed to take part in next years WC in the States. Ron (US44) will set you up, I am sure. You are hitting the nail on the head, comparing some of the total DN package with the recent Moth development. Yes, both classes are about 80 years old and due to the "kind of box rule" (construction class within limits) have not missed a beat, keeping up in these times of faster and faster sailing. See you on the Ice!

Manfred

DN G-99

Moth GER-3835

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The DN Iceboat Class has a new North American Website- All kinds of info here- getting started, building, tuning, classifieds, local clubs and contacts, and much more!

 

Click the link and get started!

 

http://na.idniyra.org/

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The winter sailing season is coming up fast! If you are interested in getting into iceboating find a swap meet and club meeting near you, pick up some gear and get ready to enjoy the fastest sailing on the planet! Make this the year no matter where you are.... Here is the list of swap meets:

 

Skeeter Iceboat Club 31st Annual Swap Meet

Sunday, October 30, 2016; 9 to noon, followed by raffle

Lucke's Cantina, 220 N. Elkhorn Rd. (WI Hwy 67), Williams Bay, WI

For more information, email sailing19@charter.net

 

This is the Grand-Daddy of all swap meets. More equipment changes hands at this swap meet than all others combined. There will be Skeeters, Renegades, Arrows, Nites, DN’s and who knows what else. Boat builders and hardware manufacturers will all set up displays. If you want to buy or sell something (or simply shoot the bull!) this is the place to be. All the big names of iceboating show up for this one.

 

Gull Lake Ice Yacht Club

Saturday, November 5, 2016 10 AM - 3 PM

Gull Lake Country Club, 9725 W Gull Lake Dr, Richland, MI 49083

For more information: https://www.facebook.com/groups/280198766052/

 

New England Ice Yacht Club Fall Meeting & Swap Meet

Saturday, November 5, 2016 9 AM - Noon

Knights of Columbus Hall, 17 Willow St, Westborough, MA 01581.

For more information: https://theneiya.org/

The swap meet starts at 9AM in the parking lot, lunch and meeting starts at noon in the hall. There will be great door prizes.... Put it on your calendars folks! Start digging out all the gear you want to sell or trade and start making a list of anything you’d like to bring up at the meeting.

 

Sailcrafters 8th Annual Iceboat Swap Meet

Saturday, November 5, 2016 10 AM- 1 PM

7450 Oxford Street, St. Louis Park, MN 55426

More information: Phone: 952-693-6089 E-Mail: tim@Sailcrafters.com

Tim Carlson of Sailcrafters is hosting again. This swap meet is popular with the Minnetonka, White Bear and Bald Eagle sailors. There promises to be lots of DN and Nite equipment along with several complete boats. We may even see a C-Skeeter courtesy of “Drifter.” Anyone looking to upgrade equipment or buy a complete boat is encouraged to attend. This is also the perfect opportunity to talk with Tim about hardware and rigging questions. And, it’s the right time to drop off that sail that needs repair. Email Tim at tim@Sailcrafters.com

 

Chickawaukie Ice Boat Club in Maine

Sunday, November 6, 2016

12 Chretien Rd, Biddeford, ME

For more information https://iceboat.me/

Great follow-up to the NEIYA meeting. Great variety of gear and food at this one!

 

Lake Ronkonkoma Ice Yacht Club Swap Meet

Saturday, December 10, 2016 1 - 4 pm

Weeks Yacht Yard, 10 Riverview Ct, Patchogue, NY 11772

More information: http://iceboatlongisland.com/

Food and drinks will be supplied by the club free of charge! What else could one ask for?

 

For more information about ice sailing go to these sites and look for the "Get Started" buttons:

North American DN Association http://na.idniyra.org/

Four Lakes Ice Yacht Club, Madison, WI http://iceboat.org/index.html

New England Ice Yachting Association https://theneiya.org/

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Last iceboat season I decided to make a new smaller iceboat that I could use on the smaller lakes around where I live. My goals were to build something that I could transport in the back of my pickup truck, easy to set up with an unstayed rig, be comfortable and warmer than an open cockpit iceboat, be an attractive home builder type project and perform well in multiple wind conditions. I invited a few of the local soft water sailors to sail it last season. Needless to say they were hooked. Since then things have progressed. We are building 6 more of them at the Montana Wooden Boat Foundation for this iceboating season. I decided to make a building tutorial as we build the 6 Mini Skeeter Iceboats. I'm not that great at making the video's, dispite that the info will really help future builders. Video 1 is about cutting out the parts and drawing up the bulkheads. Video 2 Covers making the stem block and seat frame and back. Video 3 we start assembling the fuselage. I will make more video's as the building progress permits. Each video has a link to the next in the info area.

 

Very inspiring home build, the mini skeeter looks good.

 

What is a comparable performance metric for ice boats to SA/D, since there is no actual displacement? Can SA be tied to the runner pressure?

 

Lessee ... P=F/A, where F is the mass of the iceboat plus crew times acceleration of gravity, and A is the total contact area of the runners.

 

What is the typical length and width of each runner on a good iceboat and typical sail area? How much does a good iceboat tend to weigh?

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Another question, does anyone have any info on how to optimize the length and width of the runners?

 

Obviously a runner that is too small would present too much pressure to the ice and inhibit movement. But a runner that is too big would present too much friction and inhibit movement. The right sized runner would be perfectly matched to the mass of the boat, and present neither too much friction nor too much pressure.

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^^

 

Nice. Had almost forgot that one. A couple of friends made it. Most of it shot outside Helsinki. Unfortunately not often conditions like that and because of low sales they had to sell the company. I think it's based somewhere in the US now

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"Very inspiring home build, the mini skeeter looks good.
What is a comparable performance metric for ice boats to SA/D, since there is no actual displacement? Can SA be tied to the runner pressure?
Lessee ... P=F/A, where F is the mass of the iceboat plus crew times acceleration of gravity, and A is the total contact area of the runners.
What is the typical length and width of each runner on a good iceboat and typical sail area? How much does a good iceboat tend to weigh?"

Hard to say what the iceboat equivalent of SA/D and / or waterline length is- the big Skeeters have a higher top end than a DN but maybe because they really push the aero way harder than you can in a DN- Seems like parasitic aero drag is the big limiting factor in top end speed.

Runner pressure is a factor- mainly in terms of handling- not enough downforce from the bent rig or loaded up sail and the boats tend to skid and slide. It's been said that more pressure on a runner is faster but if the ice is soft this will only make it dig a deeper trench. Wicked slow.

On DNs the runner used most often is a 36" long "insert runner"- the steel is inserted into a carbon and wood body for stiffness. These will be sharpened to a 90 degree bevel usually and have about 18" of flat in the middle, with lead-in and lead-out at ends. Several types of runners for different conditions are used though- and endless discussions about it!

As for weight DN guys usually go right for minimum, however some Skeeter sailors feel that more weight speeds the boat up- better righting moment, more momentum for getting through snow drifts and light spots maybe?

Enough questions to keep you thinking for awhile! If you haven't sailed one of these things find one of the sites I mentioned earlier (Or PM me) and give it a shot- it's a blast.... Serge

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Psyched to see iceboating on the front page! Big props to the Waterlust gang for making the trek and the awesome video. If it has you thinking about giving hard-water sailing a try click the following links and look for the "get started" buttons- fall swap meets are coming up soon, great time to get into the game!

 

DN North America

 

New England Ice Yacht Association

 

iceboat.org

 

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Another question, does anyone have any info on how to optimize the length and width of the runners?

Obviously a runner that is too small would present too much pressure to the ice and inhibit movement. But a runner that is too big would present too much friction and inhibit movement. The right sized runner would be perfectly matched to the mass of the boat, and present neither too much friction nor too much pressure.

.

 

Runners are a science in themselves. I'm trying to limit them to two sets in the Mini Skeeter class to help save some frustration for the owners. The DN class is great but they kind of go over board with the amount of different runners they allow in that class. Here are few basic combinations for the DN that I know of. Plate runners are the most common in iceboating.They are typically 1/4" thick 4 to 5" tall. The front steering runners are 26" long the rear are 30" long. That's what we use on the Mini Skeeter. I think the Nite Iceboat uses them too as well as other iceboats. Insert runners use a 440c SS blade sandwiched in between carbon stiffeners the rear are 36"long. Slush runners are thicker runners usually made with a wood body and angle iron. They work on soft slushy ice when others can't go well. They are kind of outdated but handy to have to keep you sailing when it warms up or light air sailing. Long runners go over bumps better. They also grip better. Short runners work better when there is too much snow less drag. Sharp runners work good on hard ice and strong wind. Dull runners work better when the ice is soft or in light air to cut drag. Different angles sharper angles good for hard ice and high wind. Less angle better for softer ice or light air. The amount of flat or camber changes runner performance. It's not uncommon for top compedative DNers to multiple sets of each type when going to a regatta worth big $$$$.

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US 772 is correct to a point but I'd like to point out that you can do very well in the DN Class with a pretty minimal runner kit- Like a lot of things in life and sailing it's easy to overthink it...

 

Many top sailors use a standard plate runner at the front in all conditions.

If you own one of those (cheap) and a pair of min width, full length insert runners sharpened to 90 degrees with about 18" of flat you are good to go for 90% of sailing days!

 

Beyond that a set of plates is good to have if you are sailing in snow- these also double as "pit runners", used when sailing from and to the launch area (which often has dirt and sand tracked onto the ice).

 

While some DN sailors go nuts and own a big quiver of runners others (some top campaigners and me) have a minimal kit. This makes it easier to maintain, transport, and most of all makes it easy to pick the best ones for the day- usually the thin inserts!

 

Check the websites linked in earlier posts to find out how to give hard-water sailing a try- you won't regret it!

 

Think ICE- Serge

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The problem i have with the dn class is its not a very good "one design", my 1976 heavy dn with a wood rig and boom built to the original plans with all the vintage hard where cant come close to competing with the modern boats, i personally think they should break the dns into two classes a original one design fleet and a modern development class with carbon rigs and all the other expensive stuff. id think that'd draw a lot more new people into the sport who don't want to drop thousands into a boat. But then again this is probably the reason i bought a renegade.

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The DN is NOT a one-design class! It's a box rule, and a rather tight one at that.

 

The boats basically are one-design; There are only a few spar builders and a handful of sailmakers that are prevalent in the class- Seems like all of the mast/sail combinations get up to the front of the fleet regularly-

 

While the boats aren't one-design they have evolved into the same corner of the rules- so they are all pretty close. Since the class is NOT one-design individual sailors can fine tune their boats (especially plank stiffness and mast stiffness) to suit their size and sailing style- this allows a wide size range of sailors to be competitive across the wind range. Kinda cool.

 

So you get enough room to tinker and tune but not enough latitude that you can go off on crazy and expensive tangents. Best of both worlds!

 

In New England we've been informally dividing the DN fleet into modern and classic divisions- people with older boats have been getting out and having some fun with that.

 

Renegades are cool too- would love to take one for a spin sometime-

 

One thing I do know is that no matter what the boat the thing that makes it go fast is the nut holding the tiller!

 

SERGE

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Serge, yesterday I assigned the 52nd sail number for the Mini Skeeter. I would say the majority of the people getting plans are iceboaters. I'm trying to figure out runners rules. My Idea is to limit to 2 pair to help keep costs down. I'm considering allowing a pair of plate runners 26 front 30 rear 4'' to 5'' high. (typical DN runners) My inclination is to allow another set of plates the same length. One set can have 90 degree for hard ice and the other 105 degrees for soft ice. What do you think would be a good option for runners?

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Hey 772- Congrats on cracking 50 numbers! That's awesome.

As for runners, your concept sounds good- only thing I'd suggest is that 105 degrees sounds like it would have traction issues- I know that on a DN 100 degree runners get a little twitchy in all but light wind- maybe different in a mini-Skeeter though-

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Don't forget the New England Ice Yacht Association annual meeting and swap meet is today (11-5-16) in Westborough, MA.

Come on out and take a look at the gear and see what this iceboating stuff is all about!

 

Info here:

https://theneiya.org/

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A few years back I made the first Mini Skeeter iceboat. One of the reasons I made is that it's easy to transport and setup. Because of that we've been able to explore different places to iceboat on a moments notice. This year has been the coldest winter I've experienced since moving to Montana in 95. The bays on Flathead lake have been frozen for 3 months. Unfortunately we are experiencing record snow fall as well delaying the start iceboating season until the last 3 weeks.

We live in a spectacular place to enjoy the sport. It's next to miraculous to get all the elements of hard snow free smooth ice and wind to come together as one to sail. I recorded a few of our trips traveling across Montana and sailing some local ice on Flathead Lake that we've never sailed before. I will typically set up a windward leeward race course. We fun raced for hours until our arms were noodled. Yesterday I sailed out to the windiest part on Big Arm Bay with the drone in tow to try my hand at recording some video. I followed some of the iceboats around for a while recording them. After doing that I flew the drone and pointed it to record where I was standing next to its carrying case. Drone In the air I put the controller on the case and got into my iceboat and sailed around and recorded the action. - Good Times!

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Fast is fun....   

And pretty much nothing is faster than an iceboat!

If you are interested in getting on the ice this year and live in NE be sure to check out the NEIYA Tune Up Clinic tomorrow in Canton, MA...

This clinic is always informative, instructive, and if nothing else you'll leave with a head full of knowledge and a full belly!

Info here or scroll around https://theneiya.org

Date: Saturday December 9th
Time: 10:00 am – 3:00 pm
Location: Arthur C. Lamb Company 85 Jackson St, Canton, MA 02021
Refreshments: Served continuously throughout the day

Clinics start right off at 10:30 AM

10:30 – Bob Haag will talk about and demo chock and runner alignment.  Misaligned chocks are slow!

11:15 – Chad Atkins– Sail Trim – Chad will demonstrate what he has learned developing sails for North and the DN Class. We will have a fully rigged boat and a sail hung horizontally so you can really see shape.

12 Noon – Lunch Rumors of Venison stew, the Lamb’s famous chili and hot dogs

12:30 – James “T” Thieler–  He will discuss and demonstrate what your plank should look like and the effects of different stiffnesses

1:15 – TBD Runner profile benefits. Steve will tackle questions we have all had. 18” of flat? More? Less? Why?

2:00 – Eben Whitcomb – Safety and Race Rules- really something we can’t talkabout enough, and a good refresher for everyone.

All Ice boaters are Welcome to this Clinic Racers, Cruisers, Voyeurs and Vagabond.

OLD ICEBOAT IN THE BARN? BRING IT. WE’LL TAKE A LOOK AND HELP GET YOU ON THE ICE THIS SEASON.

In addition we welcome any newcomers trying to get into ice boating and onto the ice this season.

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Orange Lake NY last week:

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Interested in giving iceboating a shot or checking out some of the craft?  Come to the New England Ice Yacht Association annual meeting and swap meet in Hudson, MA on November 3.

There will be boats and gear set up and all kinds of stuff for sale, from bits and pieces to whole boats.  

You cannot find a wind-related thrill that compares to ripping it up on the ice....  It'll make you look forward to winter!

For more information and directions go to    https://theneiya.org/   Hope to see you there!

 

 

DN 5224 2003.jpg

Lemberg Skeeeter.jpg

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More Swap Meets!

Take a look here-  More swap meets than you can shake a stick at!  Find one near you and get your ass on the ice!  Nothing like it....  Best knots-per-dollar ratio in yachting....

NEW ENGLAND ICE YACHTING ASSOCIATION SWAP MEET & LUNCHEON
November 3, 2018 10:00 AM (Swap Meet) 12:00 (Luncheon and Meeting)
Hudson-Concord Elks Hall – 99 Park Street, Hudson, MA 01749
Details

CHICKAWAUKIE ICE BOAT CLUB
Sunday, Nov. 4, 2018 11:00 AM
12 Cretian Rd., Biddeford, ME 04005
Details

WESTERN MICHIGAN ICE YACHT CLUB SWAP MEET
November 3, 2018 9 AM until 2 PM
Muskegon Yacht Club – 3198 Edgewater St., Muskegon, Michigan
Details

SKEETER ICEBOAT CLUB SWAP MEET
November 4, 2018 9 AM until noon
220 N. Elkhorn Rd. (WI Hwy 67), Williams Bay, WI.
Details

MINNESOTA ICEBOAT CLUB SWAP MEET
November 3, 2018 9AM until noon
Sailcrafters – 7450 Oxford Street, St. Louis Park, MN 55426
Details

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Hey you forgot Lake Ronkonkoma Ice Boat & Yacht Club Swap

Meet at Weeks Boat Yard, River Ave, Patchogue, NY, I believe it

Is Dec 8, 1-4. One of the officers can correct me if I am wrong.

Doug A

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