Anchor Geekdom

[Mr. Ed 439]

We alternate between a big CQR and an equally big Manson Boss (a horrible looking thing that reminds me of a galvanized USS Enterprise, but which squirrels down in weedy anchorages.) 

My careful planning worked for once, and it does house beautifully, but this season it developed a really vexing vice, which turned out be due to a malign interaction between the relatively thin shank and the groove in the bow roller. This groove by the way does a really good job of keeping the chain from twisting. The trouble came when the shank itself began to bed in that groove which made it very difficult to launch or stow (you have to do a little manual capsize as it comes up or down).

I fixed it by increasing the shank's width by whipping it: when asked why i've done that I tell people it's to increase the buoyancy.

What a boring post. Sorry. Shows how really boring the task I'm supposed to be doing right now is.

[Autonomous 358]

I like the buoyancy angle.

I have a HydroBubble back-up anchor that breaks down for storage.

 

[Autonomous 358]

And yes, the Boss is an ungainly looking thing. At times new anchor fever sets in and I want to replace it with a Rocna Vulcan. So far I have resisted but it may be inevitable.

[Panope 352]

 

 

[eliboat 273]

Thanks for the update Steve.  I love my Sarca Excel, and I sleep very well at night after I have set it.  Aside from my own mooring gear, I prefer to be hanging from my Excel than be tied to a mooring.  I should say that the galvanizing on my anchor started failing on the top of the shank within the first season of use.  Perhaps that's an isolated defect on my anchor.  My 30 year old Bruce that I lost, prompting me to purchase the Excel never had any issues in this regard.  

I anchor primarily in Maine, where we are blessed for the most part with wonderful dense mud.  On the occasion that I must pull into Camden (which I really dislike) I will anchor tucked into Curtis Island, which provides protection from the prevailing swell that will rearrange your galley every night.  It's a rocky bottom there and certainly not ideal for anchoring... however I have never moved outside of my anchor alarm zone while set there.  The only time I've ever had an issue was oddly enough in mud, and I was most likely due to unique circumstances.  I had fouled my prop entering the anchorage for the WoodenBoat school while on my way there to race in the Eggemoggin Reach Regatta.  I ended up anchored where I was anchored without much of a choice to move for a while, as there were boats packed in everywhere (it's a sensational experience actually).  I had to reduce scope to get a little breathing room from the Fife parked right behind me, and I think I probably held on 2:1 or less scope for a couple of nights until the Sunday after the race.  The breeze picked up then, just as I was able to secure some scuba gear to clear the mess on my prop, and I dragged quite a ways before letting out more chain.  I don't think any of this can be blamed on the Excel!  

As far as the Spade goes, I specd one out for a custom race boat project I was working on over the last couple of years, and the reason was that it could be broken down.  Obviously the AL Excel can be broken down too, however, if you wanted to weld the Spade together, that shouldn't be too difficult no?

 

-Eli

[Elegua 802]

Nice test!

I love my "genuine" Bruce. Seems to work well in Maine despite the poor test results. However I'm thinking of joining the modern anchor era with an Excell. I have a 35lb Northhill and a 28lb Fortress as alternate and kedge anchors. 

[Panope 352]

11 hours ago, eliboat said:

Thanks for the update Steve.  I love my Sarca Excel, and I sleep very well at night after I have set it.  Aside from my own mooring gear, I prefer to be hanging from my Excel than be tied to a mooring.  I should say that the galvanizing on my anchor started failing on the top of the shank within the first season of use.  Perhaps that's an isolated defect on my anchor.  My 30 year old Bruce that I lost, prompting me to purchase the Excel never had any issues in this regard.  

I anchor primarily in Maine, where we are blessed for the most part with wonderful dense mud.  On the occasion that I must pull into Camden (which I really dislike) I will anchor tucked into Curtis Island, which provides protection from the prevailing swell that will rearrange your galley every night.  It's a rocky bottom there and certainly not ideal for anchoring... however I have never moved outside of my anchor alarm zone while set there.  The only time I've ever had an issue was oddly enough in mud, and I was most likely due to unique circumstances.  I had fouled my prop entering the anchorage for the WoodenBoat school while on my way there to race in the Eggemoggin Reach Regatta.  I ended up anchored where I was anchored without much of a choice to move for a while, as there were boats packed in everywhere (it's a sensational experience actually).  I had to reduce scope to get a little breathing room from the Fife parked right behind me, and I think I probably held on 2:1 or less scope for a couple of nights until the Sunday after the race.  The breeze picked up then, just as I was able to secure some scuba gear to clear the mess on my prop, and I dragged quite a ways before letting out more chain.  I don't think any of this can be blamed on the Excel!  

As far as the Spade goes, I specd one out for a custom race boat project I was working on over the last couple of years, and the reason was that it could be broken down.  Obviously the AL Excel can be broken down too, however, if you wanted to weld the Spade together, that shouldn't be too difficult no?

 

-Eli

Thanks for the report on the Excel, Eli.

As to welding the Spade together,  I would only consider this just prior to a re-galvanizing event. 

Even then, I would proceed with great caution as any heat-treating of the shank may be negatively affected.  Also, welding may create an occlusion (trapped air gap) that might promote hidden corrosion. 

Steve

[Panope 352]

3 hours ago, Elegua said:

Nice test!

I love my "genuine" Bruce. Seems to work well in Maine despite the poor test results. However I'm thinking of joining the modern anchor era with an Excell. I have a 35lb Northhill and a 28lb Fortress as alternate and kedge anchors. 

Thanks, Elegua

I've also got a soft spot for the Bruce anchor.  I reckon if I had a 66 pounder for Panope (15,000 lbs), It would be all the anchor I would ever need.

Steve

[Fah Kiew Tu 2,012]

Nice one, Steve. And very interesting as I swapped my 15 kg CQR for a 16 kg Sarca Excel a few weeks ago. We haven't got it wet yet though - lot of moorings I can pick up locally so why bother anchoring.

The Sarca anchor is wider as well as longer - I had to add a chafing pad to my bowsprit to keep the anchor from destroying the galvanising on both. It's probably as wide as my 20 kg CQR in fact.

Good to see how well it holds.

FKT

[eliboat 273]

10 hours ago, Elegua said:

Nice test!

I love my "genuine" Bruce. Seems to work well in Maine despite the poor test results. However I'm thinking of joining the modern anchor era with an Excell. I have a 35lb Northhill and a 28lb Fortress as alternate and kedge anchors. 

I loved my Bruce In Maine mud Elegua.  While the ultimate holding power is far lower on a Bruce than with new anchor styles, it always set quickly and firmly in mud and always reset.  I ended up with a Sarca Excel simply because they had stopped manufacturing authentic Bruce anchors by the time mine decided to leave for good on a vacation to the bottom of Muscungous bay.   One of the many interesting insights Steve shed some light on in his series was the relatively poor performance of Bruce-type clone anchors vs the real thing.  

[Russell Brown 749]

I guess I need to watch the series again. When you say Bruce type anchor clones, do you mean anchors like the Rocna? I bought a Mantus (on Steve's suggestion) a few years ago and feel positive about it. I have had it not bite before, but it's probably undersized and I have used it a ton in the last 3 years.

[DDW 624]

Steve, an alternative view on the Spade two piece: the anchor shank to fluke joint is probably the highest stressed location in most any anchor. For those with a sharp angle between shank and fluke, there is a large stress riser at the corner nearest the rode. A few anchors round this into a sort of fillet which will reduce the riser, but most do not. The Spade design eliminates most of that stress riser, further, it is not dependent on the skill of the welder. As you know, the Spade does not depend on the bolt for strength, it is not a structural element: once on the bottom and set you could remove the bolt and it will stay together due to the angle of shank and socket. 

On balance, there are pros and cons to both fabrication methods but I'd not chose an anchor based on that difference. 

Keep up the good work - I can't believe the amount of time and effort you've put into this project!

[Ishmael 6,139]

32 minutes ago, Russell Brown said:

I guess I need to watch the series again. When you say Bruce type anchor clones, do you mean anchors like the Rocna? I bought a Mantus (on Steve's suggestion) a few years ago and feel positive about it. I have had it not bite before, but it's probably undersized and I have used it a ton in the last 3 years.

He is talking about anchors that look sorta like a Bruce, but with cheaper material, poor galvanizing, and design compromises like a blunt leading edge where the Bruce is quite sharp. Clones like the Lewmar Claw. Once you see it side by side with a real Bruce, the differences are quite noticeable. Steve had one episode where he tested clones of good anchors and the clones performed miserably.

 

[Panope 352]

57 minutes ago, Russell Brown said:

I guess I need to watch the series again. When you say Bruce type anchor clones, do you mean anchors like the Rocna? I bought a Mantus (on Steve's suggestion) a few years ago and feel positive about it. I have had it not bite before, but it's probably undersized and I have used it a ton in the last 3 years.

Russell,  Ishmaels' response about the copy anchor is spot on.  

Which size Mantus did you end up with?

Steve 

[Panope 352]

1 hour ago, DDW said:

Steve, an alternative view on the Spade two piece: the anchor shank to fluke joint is probably the highest stressed location in most any anchor. For those with a sharp angle between shank and fluke, there is a large stress riser at the corner nearest the rode. A few anchors round this into a sort of fillet which will reduce the riser, but most do not. The Spade design eliminates most of that stress riser, further, it is not dependent on the skill of the welder. As you know, the Spade does not depend on the bolt for strength, it is not a structural element: once on the bottom and set you could remove the bolt and it will stay together due to the angle of shank and socket. 

On balance, there are pros and cons to both fabrication methods but I'd not chose an anchor based on that difference. 

Keep up the good work - I can't believe the amount of time and effort you've put into this project!  I can't either!

DDW,  I had not considered that the 2 piece design might be a structural benefit.  Thanks for that insight. 

Taking your thoughts further, a "fillet" at the intersection of fluke and shank might cause sub-strait to collect and foul the anchor (like the wide shank base of the Manson Supreme does chronically). 

All that said, if Spade sold both versions (1 and 2 piece) and they behaved identically,  I would even pay a (small) premium for the single piece.

 Steve

[Elegua 802]

8 hours ago, Panope said:

Thanks, Elegua

I've also got a soft spot for the Bruce anchor.  I reckon if I had a 66 pounder for Panope (15,000 lbs), It would be all the anchor I would ever need.

Steve

 I have a 66lb for a 22k lbs boat. 

1 hour ago, eliboat said:

While the ultimate holding power is far lower on a Bruce than with new anchor styles, it always set quickly and firmly in mud and always reset.

I haven't experienced the low holding power...yet. I've been on shortish scope in an unexpected breeze from a bad angle in thin mud and all was okay per drag queen. Didn't sleep very well, though...

[Autonomous 358]

The Rocna I bought a while back had a negative fillet, if that makes sense. Rather than the fillet between the flukes and shank adding volume to the 90° intersection it was below the surface plane.

I got rid of it and bought a Manson Boss. 

But wait, there's more!

The Boss had dirty, chipping galvanizing. There were rust spots on the anchor after a short time in the rain and the boat was stored 100 miles inland. I wasn't the only one with this issue. It seems at least one bad batch made it through. It was replaced but only after a series of emails which became unpleasant with both the seller and distributor. Ugh.

Interestingly the new Boss was built differently from the first one. They kept it very close to the original shape but built it with fewer pieces of steel for, I assume, the sake of efficiency.

[DDW 624]

3 hours ago, Panope said:

DDW,  I had not considered that the 2 piece design might be a structural benefit.  Thanks for that insight. 

Taking your thoughts further, a "fillet" at the intersection of fluke and shank might cause sub-strait to collect and foul the anchor (like the wide shank base of the Manson Supreme does chronically). 

All that said, if Spade sold both versions (1 and 2 piece) and they behaved identically,  I would even pay a (small) premium for the single piece.

 Steve

I don't have a use for the ability to disassemble the Spade, other than it makes it cheaper to ship. That alone might justify it. The best construction ever was the original Bruce, forged out of steel in Belgium. Even when Bruce moved them to Brazil they were one piece forged steel. Most of the Bruce copies are some of the poorest construction, castings with ubiquitous flaws and warpage. A new one came with the trawler and I gave it away on the dock - I was embarrassed to have that thing on the bow. 

[Panope 352]

36 minutes ago, DDW said:

I don't have a use for the ability to disassemble the Spade, other than it makes it cheaper to ship. That alone might justify it. The best construction ever was the original Bruce, forged out of steel in Belgium. Even when Bruce moved them to Brazil they were one piece forged steel. Most of the Bruce copies are some of the poorest construction, castings with ubiquitous flaws and warpage. A new one came with the trawler and I gave it away on the dock - I was embarrassed to have that thing on the bow. 

I'll give the Bruces' construction a slightly lower rating than best.  If it had a shank of Bisalloy 80 like the Excel, the shank could be made much thinner, and maybe the Bruce would then be able to dive into the seabed and generate better holding power.

[Russell Brown 749]

12 hours ago, Panope said:

Russell,  Ishmaels' response about the copy anchor is spot on.  

Which size Mantus did you end up with?

Steve 

Pretty sure it's 13 pounds and has about 10 ft of 1/4" chain. Kept it all light for the R2AK, but it seems okay for the amount of windage the boat has at anchor.

[Autonomous 358]

On 9/23/2016 at 12:25 PM, DDW said:

I think the holes release the suction, allowing the mud to slide off.

 

On tractor buckets and backhoe buckets, you will often find weld bead run at intervals at right angles to the expected "dirt flow". It is said to be done to keep sticky dirt from sticking to the bucket - as it slides the weld bead pushes it off a little, allows air in, lets it release.

 

I wonder if you could get the same effect as the holes by doing that on the anchor fluke. It has the advantage of not weakening the anchor.

 

Just to add to your workload .

Mud tires often have similar ridges in the void between the lugs for the same purpose.

[Autonomous 358]

It looks like we're gonna get a new Mantus. I won a 40% off prize from them.

Don't really need another anchor but they have a 2 1/2# collapsible dinghy anchor I could use. Their M2 anchor looks like it would penetrate weed better than my Manson Boss.

Or I could save 60% and walk away.

[gwilcox 4]

I have long been fascinated by this thread and want to compliment Steve on the hard work and quality results.

It would be very interesting to test a Vulcan against the Spade.  I wonder if anyone has tried this? 

The Vulcan looks a lot like a Spade but has enough features of the Rocna to make predicting performance difficult. Rocna says the fluke is just the same so that is troubling - but its not exactly the same.  Also, it has large radii at the shank to fluke attachment.  I had considered that to be a plus until now but hadn't considered it could pick up mud.  One thing not discussed much here is the importance of tip weight.  I dont know if its important but Spade puts a lot of stock in it.  I noticed at the store that the Rocna and Vulcan are considerably different in this regard.  I set some similar weight anchors on the floor at the store with the tips resting on my thumb.  The Vulcan had about double the pressure on the GW thumb weight scale.

I cruised for seven years around the Pacific with an aluminium Spade. I believe it only dragged once in a thin layer of sand over a hard coral situation.  It kept the boat from disaster any number of occasions.  The aluminium did not really hold up however.  I went through two anchors due to wearing the welds away.  Anyway, the next primary anchor will be steel and the lower price of the Vulcan is certainly attractive.

[SASSAFRASS 543]

I can give the Vulcan big thumbs up.  I think it is probably pretty close to the performance of the spade.  The aluminum two piece would make a great backup that can be stowed.  I haven't looked at Steve's videos I a while to see if he ever did a Vulcan.  It seems to always pull up about the same amount of bottom as the rocna did, which is our backup stowed below.  Both are useless if not totally clean when setting.  Ironically I dug out our fisherman and put it in the other bow roller as we did end up in a couple dive the hook rock pile ancorages that it would have been the best choice.  All in all have been super happy with the no swivel Vulcan set up.  We wore the galvanizing off the blade after two years but it wasn't too bad to have it re-done with our chain.

[gwilcox 4]

Thanks Sassafrass. Your observation that both the Rocna and the Vulcan need to be clean to set would indicate the Vulcan is more similar to the Rocna then the Spade.  My Spade could be dropped with a ball of mud and set just fine anyway. Not that I did that much but I got away with it when I did.

 

[SASSAFRASS 543]

^ it's probably a bit more technical but it only takes a couple times to make it a routine.  I think super soft mud is pretty forgiving all around.  Lots of kelp or a harder pack sand etc and it needs to be clean.  After we got to warmer water we pretty much dive the hook every time.  Outside of hepi spots like La Paz, Panama City etc.  My understanding was the Vulcan and Rocna are the same blade/weight geometry with the Vulcan blade being extended to replace the roll bar.  I should note we follow the same routine when possible of backing down at 75% power bow into the prevailing wind.  It's likely in lighter air that it will dig in a bit dirty over time and rolling around with adequate scope. As a side note I still think the aluminum fortress is bar none the best non swinging hook.  

[nota 37]

In just got a T-7000 103lbs danforth deep set at a yard sale

amazing

List Price 

$2295.84  any idea why that high ?

https://www.fisheriessupply.com/danforth-anchor-deepset-ii-lightweight-anchors

list is for a TII - 7000 aka deepset2

I can't find a thing on the T-7000 original

very familiar with standard danforths and the HT models even had a older seaplane takeapart 50 lbs cast WW2 danforth as a working anchor

but no idea about what a deep set danforth or difference in a #1 and newer #2 or why the high value ?

or even the difference in deepset from the standard or HT

or the value of a very lite used T-7000 that is way bigger then I need

[socalrider 427]

3 hours ago, nota said:

In just got a T-7000 103lbs danforth deep set at a yard sale

amazing

List Price 

$2295.84  any idea why that high ?

https://www.fisheriessupply.com/danforth-anchor-deepset-ii-lightweight-anchors

list is for a TII - 7000 aka deepset2

I can't find a thing on the T-7000 original

very familiar with standard danforths and the HT models even had a older seaplane takeapart 50 lbs cast WW2 danforth as a working anchor

but no idea about what a deep set danforth or difference in a #1 and newer #2 or why the high value ?

or even the difference in deepset from the standard or HT

or the value of a very lite used T-7000 that is way bigger then I need

Holy crap - how big is your boat?!?

My dock neighbor has something like that as a stern anchor, but he's a ~120' research trawler.  Probably tough to find the buyer who has the need and is willing to buy used, but good luck!  Would be fun to see an anchor test video for her!  

[SASSAFRASS 543]

If you watch all of Steve's videos they show that the engineering of anchors has moved well past brute force weight.  Blade area and geometry are the key.  Getting a 100lbs on deck is no small feet.  

[nota 37]

no comments on the very high price for the T-7000 deep set ?

or the difference in standard, high tension , and newer the deep sets 1 or 2 ?

I see knock off's at 100lbs at about $350 and 100 lbs danforth HT about $1000

so why is the T-7000 more then DOUBLE AT $2K as it looks very similar to the standard or HT

WHAT IS IN THE ALLOY OR TREATMENT THAT DOUBLES THE PRICE OF A DEEP SET  OVER THE HT [that is all ready high priced]

 the anchor will be used as a mooring and likely pulled on every few years to check the chain and shackles

I have never had a 22lbs danforth or bigger drag set well in the coconut grove /dinner key anchorage inc hurricane andrew

SO YES IT IS OVER KILL BUT NOBODY LOST A BOAT BY USING TOO BIG AN ANCHOR OR LINES

and yes I know danforths do NOT like reverse pulls so there will be other anchors set so the big guy never gets a side pull

[Panope 352]

 

[Russell Brown 749]

I recognize that anchor! Steve recommended it to me for my small catamaran and it has been to Alaska and back a couple of times. I can't say it has always bit in right off and everywhere, but overall I'm pleased with it. Mine is a one anchor boat, so it wasn't easy to find one anchor that works everywhere.. Been through some serious blows with that thing. 

[socalrider 427]

I'm curious if results for a small anchor are equivalent to a large anchor of the same design - do all designs scale up linearly?  Or might there be some cases where, say, a small Bruce beats a small Mantus but a large Mantus beats a large Bruce... if you follow...

[IStream 2,315]

I think this is likely the case. Intuitively, holding power is a function of fluke area (size squared) and geometry. Diving power into the substrate is a function of weight (size cubed) and geometry. As you scale the size of the anchor up and down, even if the geometry is the same, the relative abilities will change but both are required to excel at Steve's tests. 

[SASSAFRASS 543]

2 hours ago, socalrider said:

I'm curious if results for a small anchor are equivalent to a large anchor of the same design - do all designs scale up linearly?  Or might there be some cases where, say, a small Bruce beats a small Mantus but a large Mantus beats a large Bruce... if you follow...

There are a couple good Practical sailer articles out there as well as Steve's awesome videos.  It seems that the new designs are using a combination of blade fluke geometry and specific location of mass.  In theory I would think these would have a uniform effectiveness in a linear up trending scale of holding power as the anchor size scales up in the same design. Older designs based more on mass alone or fluke size alone probably not as much.  I think the newer recommended sizing is also very conservative. 

[Panope 352]

Bollard Pull of the "small" test boat has been verified.

Use the data to get an idea of the holding power of anchors that have been tested with this boat, such as the recent test of the 13 lb. Mantus Anchor.  

Steve

 

 

[Panope 352]

 

[Max Rockatansky 477]

Would you please recall to me why you chose the scope of 3.5:1?

[Panope 352]

Max,  

Nothing scientific about it.  I just like to overnight in tight little coves and frequently anchor at that scope (or less) so I wanted to test similar. 

I  have also tested the larger anchors at 2.5:1 just to test the envelope.

If an anchor fails at 3:5:1, I will re-test at 5:1

I am not interested in anchors that require more than 5:1 to function.

Steve

[Max Rockatansky 477]

Thank you.

[Dogscout 110]

Just spent a valuable morning going through this thread.  Thank you Steve!

[Panope 352]

You're welcome, Dogscout

[Panope 352]

 

[Max Rockatansky 477]

Good vid as usual, @Panope

I would rather donate to you via PayPal than Patreon, if that is possible 

[Panope 352]

2 hours ago, Max Rockatansky said:

Good vid as usual, @Panope

I would rather donate to you via PayPal than Patreon, if that is possible 

Not possible at this time, Max.  I'm out floating around now, but when I get back to civilization I'll look into setting that up.  Thanks,  Steve

[Kris Cringle 1,057]

Danforth rules on granite. Tucks right into it.

[Diarmuid 653]

6 hours ago, Kris Cringle said:

Danforth rules on granite. Tucks right into it.

I'd go for a #3 Camalot placement there, but a danforth is pretty good too.

 

[Autonomous 358]

You sure? Did you dive on it?

[Panope 352]

 

[Panope 352]

 

[Panope 352]

 

[SASSAFRASS 543]

Steve you ever test a Bugel anchor?  Had not heard of them before, I guess plans are open on on web, super easy to build.  The delivery captain on the boat I'm on swears by them.

[Panope 352]

1 hour ago, SASSAFRASS said:

Steve you ever test a Bugel anchor?  Had not heard of them before, I guess plans are open on on web, super easy to build.  The delivery captain on the boat I'm on swears by them.

I've not had my hands on a Bugel.  Too many projects this winter for me to build one.  I would happily test a Bugel if someone donated one.

[SASSAFRASS 543]

We were wondering if a aluminum of same plate would work.  Would be a nice way to go for light weight hook.  Have to put it in the to do list.

 

[SASSAFRASS 543]

So we had a little breeze come through and the captain wanted to test the backup anchor as we are heading for a slip soon.  Boat and everything is new.  The backup is a large fortress.  I have one on our boat and regularly use for a stern hook.  Other than picking up coral balls in the fluke I've never had any complaints.  The bottom here is sandy Mudd with light grass.  All I can say is wow big fail.  I think we went through six or eight scenerios without a passable set.  Tried in both fluke positions, short scope set, long scope set, no power and with power.  Kind of befuddled as I really like this anchor and have yet to see these poor results.  I have never tried setting ours on a all chain rode as we were today but that seems like a stretch for this poor performance.

 I guess have to put this away in the things to worry about file with fortresses.

[Max Rockatansky 477]

Danforth styles do not set well in weed in my experience.

[Russell Brown 749]

I bought a Fortress for the G-32 and had loads of trouble getting it to set. Panope suggested the Mantus and that has been good (the 13 pounder that Steve tested). Steve loaned me the Viking that he also tested and that seems really good too.

[eliboat 273]

Only issues I’ve had with the fortress have been with resetting sometimes and the geometry+light weight making the anchor drop slower than I’m used to.  As far as initial set and overall holding power, I’ve always been impressed with the fortress.  

[Zonker 2,657]

I had a FX 37 for a stern/storm anchor on our 30' boat and carried it across Canada and used it for the stern anchor on our 40' cat.

It hated weed which would jam the flukes and prevent a good set.

I used it as a kedge many times to get 40-45' heavy monohulls unstuck. Never an issue then, even with very short length of chain + rope.

[SASSAFRASS 543]

The one we have is a older one the design of the pivot part that holds the flukes is smaller. That's the only thing I can think of.  I really like ours and will still use but will be hesitant about giving rave reviews anymore.  The captain had a pretty valid point, either it sets or not as back up you can't be bottom specific in a blow.   Will see if we can get a spade shipped down.

[Russell Brown 749]

I guess a lot depends on where you are. a very large part of both coasts have a sandy bottom. Not much of that where I live, so I need something besides a Fortress. I do believe that they are really good and I wish I'd had one when cruising. I used to haul some heavy ass anchors around on a very light boat.

[SASSAFRASS 543]

Yeah still kind of perplexed from previous experience.  We will try a chain line test via the dingy later as well.  Same spot, will see what happens.

Had a pretty funny exchange today.  For reference we are in quarentine flying a Q flag, a decent squal was on the way pretty black curtain, Panama is locked down with zero movement on Sunday.  So... Our neighbor on the hook, a German guy who just came in a few days ago and is apparently disregarding all rules, decided to pay a visit.  He rowed over in his inflatable with a kayak paddle backwards, no outboard, in front of a blow. A little wierd.  He didn't recognize me or the other crew who have had our boats next to him in the marina for over a year.  His first comment was "Are you French?". The captain speaks french and replied in French that yes he speaks French.  He replied "I don't speak French, we must speak English"

He then proceeded to give a very lengthy seminar in proper anchoring, apparently he was quite dismayed by our testing yesterday and assumed we were all idiots, or French I guess.  The captain was very polite listening to it all.  About halfway through, the captain politely asked about the squal two days ago when the German guy was the only one in the Ancorage to drag.  He replied that that's not important and kept rambling on.  Good morning entertainment.  We refrained from messing with, were tempted to tell him the port athorities were asking us all kinds of questions about his boat and if we new him.

 

Probably one for the books on rudest intros, assuming someone is from somewhere then insisting they speak another language as you lecture them on proper seamanship.

[Panope 352]

3 hours ago, SASSAFRASS said:

...................apparently he was quite dismayed by our testing yesterday and assumed we were all idiots.............

The spot where I do my anchor testing is usually boat free, but this summer has had a rotation of about a dozen vessels.

 When I tested the ULTRA anchor the other day, the folks on the other boats must have thought I the greatest anchoring numbskull of all time.  Multiple deployments/retrievals, driving back and forth at high speed with boat jerking around like a dog at the end of it's leash - 10 times,  power setting for 5 minutes with no movement - then picking up the anchor for another try.

Next anchor I will test is a 21 pound SPADE.  Imagine the shaking heads of folks walking the dock when they see that itsy bitsy thing.

Steve

[SASSAFRASS 543]

Very nice excited to see the spade video.

 

That's too funny you must have quite the reputation from afar in the PNW with your tests!  "Oh shit here comes that crazy guy who can't anchor to save his life we gotta move!"

[Jim in Halifax 252]

13 hours ago, Panope said:

The spot where I do my anchor testing is usually boat free, but this summer has had a rotation of about a dozen vessels.

 When I tested the ULTRA anchor the other day, the folks on the other boats must have thought I the greatest anchoring numbskull of all time.  Multiple deployments/retrievals, driving back and forth at high speed with boat jerking around like a dog at the end of it's leash - 10 times,  power setting for 5 minutes with no movement - then picking up the anchor for another try.

Next anchor I will test is a 21 pound SPADE.  Imagine the shaking heads of folks walking the dock when they see that itsy bitsy thing.

Steve

We should be thanking you as much for your selfless disregard for personal reputation as for the testing and the data you reap...

[Ishmael 6,139]

Steve, if you're having trouble with the double shackle setup in your hawse, had you considered using a recessed pin type of shackle?

[Diarmuid 653]

1 hour ago, Ishmael said:

Steve, if you're having trouble with the double shackle setup in your hawse, had you considered using a recessed pin type of shackle?

How do yer mouse a pin like that? Or do yer just count on the tension to hold it fast?

[Panope 352]

1 hour ago, Ishmael said:

Steve, if you're having trouble with the double shackle setup in your hawse, had you considered using a recessed pin type of shackle?

I had not.  Until now.

My plan was to cut the "ear" off from the pin, leaving only a short nub.  A nub, large enough allow tightening with a wrench and to be able to drill a small hole for safety wiring.  I am not the first person do this hack (no pun intended)

Steve

[welder 2]

If you look up green pin fishing bow shackle they have a flush pin shackle 16 mm pin is the smallest they have . I don't like ss shackles for anchors

[ProaSailor 410]

12 minutes ago, welder said:

If you look up green pin fishing bow shackle...

If you provided a link we wouldn't all have to look it up.  Eight sizes from 2 ton to 17 ton working load.

https://www.greenpin.com/product/green-pinr-fishing-bow-shackle-fp

[SASSAFRASS 543]

Steve, for something like that I would get a Gunnebo hammerlock, LFS sells them.  Unless you drill the body and pin for lock wire the only way to secure the flush shackle is loctite.  Just make sure to not get a cheep knockoff hammerlock.

[Ishmael 6,139]

3 hours ago, SASSAFRASS said:

Steve, for something like that I would get a Gunnebo hammerlock, LFS sells them.  Unless you drill the body and pin for lock wire the only way to secure the flush shackle is loctite.  Just make sure to not get a cheep knockoff hammerlock.

I can't see how that would go through the small hole in the shank of the anchor, but apart from that they look very interesting.

[SASSAFRASS 543]

Usually the small end, non fork of a half is same OD as rated link size so for given chain etc it will fit.  They are super common in commercial fishing for all sorts of application.

[Panope 352]

 

[SASSAFRASS 543]

Super cool thanks Steve, that's what we have.  Been pretty happy so far, looks like they have dropped theie standards on galvanizing, we have quite a few sets with nothing to show for wear other than the blade tip.

[IStream 2,315]

My Mantus' galvanizing is sub-standard as well.

[weightless 491]

2 hours ago, Panope said:

 

Nice test!

Question: is this anchor as direct a copy of a Spade as it looks from the video?

[Panope 352]

29 minutes ago, weightless said:

Nice test!

Question: is this anchor as direct a copy of a Spade as it looks from the video?

Thanks.

While I would describe both as "convex fluke, non-pivoting, ballasted, rollbarless" anchors...... they are different designs with completely different construction techniques.

Steve

[Panope 352]

53 minutes ago, Panope said:

Thanks.

While I would describe both as "convex fluke, non-pivoting, ballasted, rollbarless" anchors...... they are different designs with completely different construction techniques.

Steve

Correction: The flukes are CONCAVE not convex.

[SASSAFRASS 543]

Couple interesting things, it definitely showed how the swivel we had kept fouling the way the chain can drop around the shank, after removing never had issues.  The ball of mud it brought up in the middle group is our only real issue, if it's a sticky clay or shell packed bottom and we don't get a good set, once the tip gets loaded up it doesn't set well unless hauled and cleaned.  The resets were pretty impressive. Definitely glad I didn't go cheep and use the Lemar claw I originally bought but returned.

[Panope 352]

 

[FixinGit 110]

@SASSAFRASS pointed me to this thread earlier. I would like to thank you for compiling this all here. Its just what i needed right now. Thanks @Panope

Great thread. 

[Ishmael 6,139]

23 minutes ago, FixinGit said:

@SASSAFRASS pointed me to this thread earlier. I would like to thank you for compiling this all here. Its just what i needed right now. Thanks @Panope

Great thread. 

One of the best tech threads on SA. Thanks, Steve.

[Panope 352]

You're welcome FixinGit, Ish.

FixinGit, I tell all newcomers to my material to avoid my early videos as they are unedited and excruciatingly boring.  Start by watching video #56 and then procede in order to the present (video number is in the title).

After watching all that, and if your head has not exploded, go ahead and watch the early material for the full anchor masochist experience.

Steve

[Panope 352]

 

[Panope 352]

 

[Panope 352]

 

[Zonker 2,657]

Steve you've got to get a government grant for this work!

[Ajax 2,033]

@Panope's got the full-on COVID beard going!

That was fascinating. In an area with a heavy carpet of weed, you might expect your anchor to just skid along the carpet unless you're fortunate enough to drag a clear path after a few attempts at setting.

[Panope 352]

Ajax, even before covid, my eleven year old daughter has been in charge of my grooming.  She cuts my hair and has instructed me to grow the beard so that I will "look like a wizard".

Who am I to disobey!

Steve

[climenuts 158]

@Panope Forgive me because I haven't gone through this entire thread and you could've done it already.

Any chance you can do a tandem setup (one anchor attached to another with ~10ft of chain)? See how they hold with a simulated big ol' blow?

[Panope 352]

54 minutes ago, climenuts said:

@Panope Forgive me because I haven't gone through this entire thread and you could've done it already.

Any chance you can do a tandem setup (one anchor attached to another with ~10ft of chain)? See how they hold with a simulated big ol' blow?

I have not conducted a tandem anchor test.  I see a number of reasons to not pursue it:

-Two cameras would be needed, simultaneously.  The resulting tangled mess would be horrid.  I have a hard enough time keeping one camera fixed on one anchor.

-My test boat cannot produce enough thrust to drag one of the (better) anchors.  Therefore, any additional holding power provided by a second anchor is not measurable.

-Other, reputable testers have found that in the unlikely event that one can actually achieve both anchors being set at the same time,  a shift in direction of pull results in the primary anchor rolling out of the seabed and then becoming a kellet.    

I am open to be proven wrong, but I (now) think the whole business of tandem anchoring is more trouble than it is worth.  

Steve