• Announcements

    • Zapata

      Abbreviated rules   07/28/2017

      Underdawg did an excellent job of explaining the rules.  Here's the simplified version: Don't insinuate Pedo.  Warning and or timeout for a first offense.  PermaFlick for any subsequent offenses Don't out members.  See above for penalties.  Caveat:  if you have ever used your own real name or personal information here on the forums since, like, ever - it doesn't count and you are fair game. If you see spam posts, report it to the mods.  We do not hang out in every thread 24/7 If you see any of the above, report it to the mods by hitting the Report button in the offending post.   We do not take action for foul language, off-subject content, or abusive behavior unless it escalates to persistent stalking.  There may be times that we might warn someone or flick someone for something particularly egregious.  There is no standard, we will know it when we see it.  If you continually report things that do not fall into rules #1 or 2 above, you may very well get a timeout yourself for annoying the Mods with repeated whining.  Use your best judgement. Warnings, timeouts, suspensions and flicks are arbitrary and capricious.  Deal with it.  Welcome to anarchy.   If you are a newbie, there are unwritten rules to adhere to.  They will be explained to you soon enough.  
Sign in to follow this  
zzarganas

NEW ASTUS 16.5

Recommended Posts

8 knots no but around 12 knots or so both my f16 and A ( sea hugger ) are into that full on mode that really is all about managing sails and getting the best out of them. At 15 knots both are having to be de - powered and controlled with added down haul. I have been racing a F18 this season and they are a little more heavy weight but around 15 knots is optimum and any more you are having to depower them.

 

Remember though, yes the boats will handle a lot more wind and can be depowered quite easily but to get the best racing speed out of the boat, you need to be managing the sails and optimising the drag forces on the boat. Yes you can power up the boat more but is that the fastest way to the mark, probably not as the dagger board no longer operates correctly.

 

But one of the best moments is out on the wire with the spinny up, on one hull and just trying to go as fast as you can.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

"But one of the best moments is out on the wire with the spinny up, on one hull and just trying to go as fast as you can."

 

I agree, and for many boats that isn't going to happen in a mere 12knots of wind. It certainly won't with the Weta and hopefully won't with the Astus. At 15knots the Weta is just coming to life and you can enjoy it on up to 25 before you need to do any real de-powering of the sail other than quick sheet management in gusts. Like I said, every boat has it's sweet spot and informed buyers should take pains to find out what that sweet spot is and whether or not it's going to conform to their type of sailing.

 

I really hope the Astus proves to have a sweet spot that starts in the low to mid teens and extends into the low to mid 20's. The next two months will pass quickly, I hope, and by May I'll have some video and reports, although I won't master the boat in month, or even several.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Tom, as much as I agree with you, modern fathead sails and good sail controls such as rotating masts and powerful downhauls can widen the wind range immensely. Can I ask a question to you, which would you prefer a/ a Weta that is lively and on the plane in 12 and able to be sailed comfortably into the mid 20's by using good sail controls or b/ a Weta that is just coming onto the plane at 15 and can be sailed comfortably until the mid 20's.

 

If its a/ then there is little cost difference to achieve that if the Weta was built from new that way.

 

Sadly once you are used to good sails and learn how to operate them in a wide range of wind strengths, there is no going back.

 

But I still want to love the Weta as its such a good looking little boat.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Tom, as much as I agree with you, modern fathead sails and good sail controls such as rotating masts and powerful downhauls can widen the wind range immensely. Can I ask a question to you, which would you prefer a/ a Weta that is lively and on the plane in 12 and able to be sailed comfortably into the mid 20's by using good sail controls or b/ a Weta that is just coming onto the plane at 15 and can be sailed comfortably until the mid 20's.

 

If its a/ then there is little cost difference to achieve that if the Weta was built from new that way.

 

Sadly once you are used to good sails and learn how to operate them in a wide range of wind strengths, there is no going back.

 

But I still want to love the Weta as its such a good looking little boat.

I can and have handled my Weta in winds into upper 30's mostly by wise use of the controls you mention (it was still a tough task). But, there is still a sweet spot for every boat, where it performs optimally without any major rig de-powering required. Right now that's about 15 to 25 for the Weta which is the wind range I like to sail in. Sure you can put a larger rig on the Weta and go faster in lighter winds, but then you're going to have to start the rig de-powering process at a lower wind strength than before. I've had the Weta out playing around in winds where many of the larger rigged beach and A-cats are having major difficulties staying out regardless of what they do with their sail controls. With a larger rig, even de-powered, I'd likely find myself in the same situation, which I wouldn't care much for. Maybe as a few more people buy the Smyth sail plan and try it on their Wetas we'll find out if getting something additional on the bottom end causes them to have to give up something on the top end. Until then, I'm guessing they will. I could certainly be wrong.

 

For Monomuncher - the shape of the Weta hull and amas did not change in 2015 and isn't likely to any time soon. All boats remain of the same one-design class. My Weta is a 2012 and does not have round floats. They are elliptical.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Part of the fun of the Weta is that it is fun and stable to sail in winds that are capsizing higher performance cats. Hopefully the Astus 16.5 will have similar properties. The main reason I prefer tris over cats is that one can cleat the sails on a tri. Not so much on a cat.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Tom fingers crossed you end up with a keeper. Someone had to do it to keep things real. I sold my F24 to go powerboating but the sailing kept coming me back. I hope the improved outrigger sailing canoe I rebuilt will do it's job. The Gougeon 32 is the only other boat at this time I would consider.

 

Hope you prove everyone wrong. Good luck and keep up posted.

 

Eddie

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

Tom, as much as I agree with you, modern fathead sails and good sail controls such as rotating masts and powerful downhauls can widen the wind range immensely. Can I ask a question to you, which would you prefer a/ a Weta that is lively and on the plane in 12 and able to be sailed comfortably into the mid 20's by using good sail controls or b/ a Weta that is just coming onto the plane at 15 and can be sailed comfortably until the mid 20's.

 

If its a/ then there is little cost difference to achieve that if the Weta was built from new that way.

 

Sadly once you are used to good sails and learn how to operate them in a wide range of wind strengths, there is no going back.

 

But I still want to love the Weta as its such a good looking little boat.

I can and have handled my Weta in winds into upper 30's mostly by wise use of the controls you mention (it was still a tough task). But, there is still a sweet spot for every boat, where it performs optimally without any major rig de-powering required. Right now that's about 15 to 25 for the Weta which is the wind range I like to sail in. Sure you can put a larger rig on the Weta and go faster in lighter winds, but then you're going to have to start the rig de-powering process at a lower wind strength than before. I've had the Weta out playing around in winds where many of the larger rigged beach and A-cats are having major difficulties staying out regardless of what they do with their sail controls. With a larger rig, even de-powered, I'd likely find myself in the same situation, which I wouldn't care much for. Maybe as a few more people buy the Smyth sail plan and try it on their Wetas we'll find out if getting something additional on the bottom end causes them to have to give up something on the top end. Until then, I'm guessing they will. I could certainly be wrong.

 

For Monomuncher - the shape of the Weta hull and amas did not change in 2015 and isn't likely to any time soon. All boats remain of the same one-design class. My Weta is a 2012 and does not have round floats. They are elliptical.

 

Tom your hulls are elliptical, yours are round on the bottom the new ones are flat, the seams are no longer on the sides but on top and bottom,

a completely new engineered design and mold has been built, a massive project in its own, they are now fully aligned, toe in, toe out, fore and aft rake

The results are amazing! There are literary hundreds of changes/improvements to the new model weta, if you like your old model you will love the new one

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

 

Tom, as much as I agree with you, modern fathead sails and good sail controls such as rotating masts and powerful downhauls can widen the wind range immensely. Can I ask a question to you, which would you prefer a/ a Weta that is lively and on the plane in 12 and able to be sailed comfortably into the mid 20's by using good sail controls or b/ a Weta that is just coming onto the plane at 15 and can be sailed comfortably until the mid 20's.

 

If its a/ then there is little cost difference to achieve that if the Weta was built from new that way.

 

Sadly once you are used to good sails and learn how to operate them in a wide range of wind strengths, there is no going back.

 

But I still want to love the Weta as its such a good looking little boat.

I can and have handled my Weta in winds into upper 30's mostly by wise use of the controls you mention (it was still a tough task). But, there is still a sweet spot for every boat, where it performs optimally without any major rig de-powering required. Right now that's about 15 to 25 for the Weta which is the wind range I like to sail in. Sure you can put a larger rig on the Weta and go faster in lighter winds, but then you're going to have to start the rig de-powering process at a lower wind strength than before. I've had the Weta out playing around in winds where many of the larger rigged beach and A-cats are having major difficulties staying out regardless of what they do with their sail controls. With a larger rig, even de-powered, I'd likely find myself in the same situation, which I wouldn't care much for. Maybe as a few more people buy the Smyth sail plan and try it on their Wetas we'll find out if getting something additional on the bottom end causes them to have to give up something on the top end. Until then, I'm guessing they will. I could certainly be wrong.

 

For Monomuncher - the shape of the Weta hull and amas did not change in 2015 and isn't likely to any time soon. All boats remain of the same one-design class. My Weta is a 2012 and does not have round floats. They are elliptical.

 

Tom your hulls are elliptical, yours are round on the bottom the new ones are flat, the seams are no longer on the sides but on top and bottom,

a completely new engineered design and mold has been built, a massive project in its own, they are now fully aligned, toe in, toe out, fore and aft rake

The results are amazing! There are literary hundreds of changes/improvements to the new model weta, if you like your old model you will love the new one

 

The only changes to the amas was the join line seam, which isn't going to have any measurable effect on performance. I looked over one of the new models, parked next to mine, a year ago and the overall shape of the amas remains unchanged. Other than the seam line and the elimination of the 1/4 inch duck tail on the stern of each ama, there isn't any difference.

 

My amas are also properly aligned, although I understand that some owners have had boats that weren't perfectly aligned. And as so often happens, other things are awry on the new model, such as asymmetrical boards and rudders. I suppose it takes a while to iron out all the details each time you move to a new manufacturer.

 

Other than that, I saw only minor changes and those were mostly areas that won't have any significant impact on boat handling or speed. The change in manufacturing location itself seems to have been more about obtaining a higher build quality than anything else. In order to retain their original goal of a one-design class they didn't change the shape of the amas or hull nor increase the size or shape of the sails.

 

Beyond that and getting back to the original topic, I'm told that the Astus boats are extremely well made and nicely appointed. I'm looking forward to seeing the boat in a few weeks.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Astus was in contact with me earlier this week. The carbon mast offering is, in fact, a shaped foil type mast, not just a round tube. Therefore, I'm in.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Astus was in contact with me earlier this week. The carbon mast offering is, in fact, a shaped foil type mast, not just a round tube. Therefore, I'm in.

 

does it rotate?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

As much as I'm going to miss your Weta videos on YouTube, I'm really looking forward to what you're going to show us with the Astus.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Late April. Nothing has changed as far as I know. It's coming over in a container with a 20 foot Astus. Dean will be down there when the container arrives in Miami and help the new owner of the 20 footer get set up. Then he's going to hook up to my 16.5 and drag it back here, where we'll set it up and hopefully spend a day or two sailing it, taking pictures and some video, of course.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Very cool little boat. Looks to sail a lot like the multi 23. Nose up, and not planing, but efficiently slicing the water. The main hull on the multi 23 was even narrower, which it could be with the much longer hull.

 

Since I also had a weta, the difference is efficiency, and a dry ride

 

Tell those sailors to move forward....

 

I am precisely in between these two boats, I mean buying either a brand new Astus 16.5 Sport+ or a 2nd hand Multi 23 MKII which cost about the same all included ... I'd appreciate comments to help me decide...

 

I like speed, so the Multi 23 has an advantage, but I sail mostly single-handed and the Astus 16.5 is a lot more manageable, not only in the water but also to carry around, set-up and dismantle, etc.

 

I have read that the Multi 23 doesn't point well due to the lack of daggerboards on the amas, but I don't know how serious a claim this is...

 

About the Astus 16.5 I haven't heard any criticism yet, at least not one based on sailing the boat rather that its concept/design analysis...

 

Thanks for commenting

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

For some real info. My weta topped off in the 14s in flat water with gusts in the mid 20s. I'm 170 pounds. I didn't really measure surfing.

 

My Multi 23 would hit a wall in the 18s due to the centerboard trunk. It got there easy and stopped.

 

My Santa Cruz 50 would go all day in the low teens, and we peaked at 26 off a big ass square wave near point Bonita.

 

Hitting 20 is not trivial.

 

Sustained 20s are damn hard unless you're foiling

 

 

Multi 23: the owner of the boat I'm considering to purchase, claims that he regularly sails it at 20+ knots under main sail alone ?! I didn't want to start arguing, but I remained incredulous... your experience seems to confirm my doubts

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I don't think you want to base boat speed on any one person's claims. Not everyone attains the same speeds on the same boat. Too many variables in terms of sailing ability, wind type, water surface conditions, currents, etc. If my Weta maxed at out a mere 14 knots where I sail it, I would have sold it two years ago.

 

The Astus 16.5 is too new for anyone to really know what it is capable of. The manufacturer claims they did 17 knots in 17 knots of wind and that they weren't really pushing it. Obviously, they make the boat and are trying to sell them so you'd expect them to be stating numbers at the top end of the curve. Time will tell. I will have mine in another month and while I certainly won't learn to get the most out of it in just a few weeks, I should have some reasonable idea what it will do in short order. We have good winds in this area through May, usually into the low 20's almost daily.

 

I think the Multi23 is the best looking trimaran out there, but it's a little large for what I need right now and the non-folding akas knocked it completely out of the picture, for me. In another place and time, I might easily have chosen it over the Astus.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The Multi if it has a good deal on the centerboard trunk can likely do 20. All day mainsail alone? Doubt it. All days long at 12+? Sure.

 

She's a powerful boat. If you live in a breezy area it would be a bit much to handle solo but could be done.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

maxnav,

my $.02:

 

to me, the decision b/w the Astus 16.5 or a Multi 23, given the parameters you describe, all come down to one variable: How will you be storing the boat between uses? If you will be keeping the boat in the water, or fully assembled on the trailer near the water, I would go with the M23. Otherwise, I would probably go with the Astus 16.5

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Than you guys for the feedback, everything you say makes sense...

 

I live and will sail the boat mostly in Tallinn bay and nearby coastline, with occasional forays to Helsinki (40 NM north) or Saarema island (120 NM SW) coast hopping or over land with the trailer. In the summer the wind is either moderate (7-12 Kn) or fairly strong (20-25 kn kn), with very modest thermal breezes due to the fact that sea temperature never really raises above 19-20 degrees and land temperature very rarely exceeds 25-27 degrees. Actually, I guess that in deeper waters the temperature goes very seldomlly above 15-16 degrees... There are also days with very weak winds (0-7 kn), particularly in the early morning and evening... So, all considered, I'd say that the prevalent conditions are for weak to moderate winds, with less frequent blows.

 

At the end of the summer I normally go to spend a few weeks in the south of Italy where you can count on regular thermal breezes building up to 15-20 kn every afternoon, while in the morning it is generally 10-15 kn. I am planning to take the boat with me.

 

I have plenty of sailing experience on monohulls (mainly offshore cruising, 20000+ miles of it) but this will be my first tri, so I will take it easy at the beginning to smooth the learning curve.

 

Where do I keep the boat ? if it would be easy to fold and put on and off the trailer, (Astus 16.5) I could a. leave it on the dock of the yacht club b. take it to my warehouse ; if unfolding and require longer time to assemble/disasseble (Multi 23), I'd probably leave it in the water at the yacht club during the summer.

 

If I think rationally, the Astus 16.5 ticks almost all the boxes , but the Multi 23 is so gorgeous that I have troubles in being perfectly rational... and besides looking good, it is a delight to sail from what I hear.. another thing I like about it is the kick-up centerboard and rudder mechanism... the water is very shallow around the coast of Estonia and strewn with boulders left over from the ice age moraines... it is not uncommon to have to walk 200-300 m from the beach before reaching waste-high water... so having a fail-safe mechanism to protect the appendages I think will be useful...

 

About the Multi 23 the only negative comments I have heard are that a. due to the lack of daggerboards on the floats, it doesn't allow to go upwind at less than 50 deg apparent ; b. due to the centerboard trunk, it is very hard to get it on a plane and above 18-20 Kn in general even in optimal conditions. Any comment on this is welcome.

 

About the Astus 16.5, as Tom said, it's too knew to have any feedback based on real-life experience... the pictures and videos released by Astus were taken in weak to moderate conditions (i guess wind was never above 10 kn) so it is really hard to asses how it would behave when pushed harder

 

Thank you all guys for your comments and help !

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

it has already been said, but again: why do you want to go above 20kt? F18 or other cats in racing do it, but that implies a good dose of experience, another type of boat, willingness to swim, wet suits, etc etc

you make it sound as if any multihull is supposed to sustain 20 kt easily, it´s not

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I owned a multi 23 for several years and did lots of hours on it, mostly solo. It sails very sweetly. It goes to weather reasonably well, the limiting factor is more related to the stubby waterline than the lack of float daggers. Off the wind it is a monster. The dagger requires mods to seal the box or it causes lots of drag. It will certainly get to 20 kts in perfect conditions but that really is an elusive barrier for such a small boat. Sustained 20+ is really pretty rare and in my opinion, the kind of breeze required usually comes with a sea state that makes you want to throttle down. People that obsess over that 20 kt. thing might be surprised by how hard it is to sustain in real world conditions on a small boat.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Thank you for the comments... I am not obsessed by any target speed, but I do like the idea to make the boat sail safely as fast as it can... each boat has a limit, a so called comfort zone, up to which it can sail safely albeit with full concentration and above that limit, it becomes unsafe despite the full concentration... this limit is affected not only by the boat lines and rig, but by wind and sea state conditions of course, but still I think we can agree that some boats can sail safely up to, say, 15 kn and others to 20 kn or whatever...

 

My question therefore was more about this safe limit, rather than the absolute top speed... I'd trade keeping a constant speed of 15 kn safely in all conditions over sustained lenghs of time, with hitting 20+ kn on the occasional off-wind run on flat waters... this comes from my offshore cruising rather than racing around the cans background of course... now I am about to buy a costal racer, so I might have to change mentality, but old habits are hard to die...

 

 

Mundt : "The dagger requires mods to seal the box or it causes lots of drag." Is this problem addressed by the centerboard Mylar flap cover which was introduced in MK II as shown at the link below ?

 

http://www.billie-marine.com/image/document/art-6/multi23-mk2_news-(1).pdf

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

yes! though mine had a g-10 flap designed by Mike Leneman that was probably a little better at sealing the open trunk but perhaps more awkward to deploy. As far as safely going fast, my humble opinion is that sea state is the deciding factor. A very elite sailor name Jay had his m23 going well over 20 knots sustained single-handed under spin and said the boat was rock solid. I think he would have throttled back but he had put up the spin and the wind built so he just rode it out. My m23 had very poor construction which made me feel insecure in big waves and wind (not to mention the fact that I'm a pussy.) I had mine going sustained 18-20ish under spin but the rudder folded up a couple hours later. I'm sure the newer models have much better construction. I would also say that the Searail looks like a much better system of demounting as the m23 bolt-together system was somewhat awkward and time-consuming. The magic of the m23 is the hull design, especially the bows. It is a bit of a handful singlehanded, especially in tight quarters. Out in open water it's party time! But of course any good multi should be fun in those conditions.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Hi, I have been in contact with Astus... they said they have received orders for 10 boats till now. All the boats already delivered were with aluminum rig, because the weight saving of the carbon rig is only about 3 Kg which for about 1700 € extra costs doesn't seem to be worth it to many ( but the cost also includes Pentex sails instead of mylar Gitter Sport sails).

 

The yard also said they are promoting the creating of a OD class to race with the Sport version, but contrary to the published specs, this OD Sport version will have a contact hull, because again the weight saving achieved with infusion was only 10 Kg and not the 30 Kg they expected.

 

I have been reading all the boat tests I could find about Astus boats and generally speaking they seem to be targeting more performance cruising rather than pure racing. Several of the boats tested were not perfectly finished. This might be due to the fact they were prototypes or anyway early models of each series or to the desire to keep costs and prices down.

 

I had doubts about the stiffness of the telescopic arms, having seen the simple pin that locks them in open position, but none of tests mentions it as being a problem. I did find a test of the 20.2 where it was said that for better upwind work one should have tightened more the forestay, which would have required to tighten the shrouds. To do that, a block and tackle should be added to the lower end of the shrouds before they are attached at the end of the rear beams. It would be interesting to know how the beams react once such a load is attached to their outward extremity,..

 

I did the same research on the Multi 23 and one thing that has met with the general praise is the stiffness of the beams and the great solidity of the platform even when hard pressed... The quality of the finish and of all details of the construction was generally praised.

 

Other small reoccurring criticism about the Astus was that the tiller extension offered by the yard is too short to really allow the helmsman to helm from anywhere on the boat, restricting the possibility of properly using body weight for trimming. The 20.2 has both a pivoting rudder (like the 16.5) and a pivoting centerboard (unlike the 16.5). The centerboard was praised, while about the rudder it was noted that "the moulded aluminum rudder stock is the same one as used in the rest of the Astus range, with the same regrettable but tolerable play". On the other hand the helm was praised as well balanced and it could be released without the boat deviating from its trajectory. It was also said that in increasing wind (force 4), the helm proved to be "much firmer" as the centerboard was raised !

 

My main concern was about single-handling and here the self-tacking jib of the Multi 23 scored well in the reviews. It's'a pity the Astus doesn't offer this option.

 

At this point, I have to decide... brand new Astus 16.5 or pre-owned Multi 23 MKII ... purchase cost is almost the same, once an outboard engine is added for the Astus (useful to get in and out from the yacht club)

 

I checked with the yacht club , the price for mooring both boats would be the same (115 €/month) independently from the different dimensions...

 

 

I want to decide this weekend, so I will update you next week.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I'd forgotten that the M23 has a self-tacking jib. I know not everyone's a fan of them, but I sure am, especially for just blasting around having fun.

 

These are very different boats... the Astus is much smaller, lighter, way more flexible for launching and general handling, presumably less speed potential and more sensitive to short waves. The M23 is a Lot more boat and power, with all of the attending pros and cons, and much more cumbersome to get on/off the water if you can't leave it built up.

 

Since purchase price is more or less equivalent (albeit new vs. used), it comes back to whichever you feel would best serve your primary use case.

 

Or, just give in to the fact that the M23 is just a sexy-looking boat and let pure emotion make the decision. B)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Hi,

 

I decided for Astus 16.5 Sport, just confirmed the order ...

 

At the end practicality won over pure emotion ;)

 

I will keep you posted as soon as the boat arrives

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Great insights and info coming from Tom Kirkman and maxnav purchasing decisions, thanks for posting that guys.

Looking forward to your on-the-water reports and photos!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I have one question for Tom Kirkman or other more experienced (than me) open boat sailors and small tris in particular... since these boats generally don't have an electrical system, what type of instruments (wind speed, wind angle, boat speed) do you use on them ?

 

I have done some research... apparently it would be possible to install TackTick wireless instruments, that come with an incorporate solar panel that powers them, but they cost more than a set of Pentex sails !

 

Otherwise one could use a handheld anemometer for wind speed, a mechanical windex on top of the mast to judge the approximate wind-angle and a handheld gps for the boat speed...

 

In case an electric outboard engine is installed, such as Torpeedo 503, its battery comes with an USB socket that could power an iPad on which could be installed navigation software. The iPad internal gps would display the boat on the charts with speed and course data.

 

Any other suggestion is welcome

 

Max

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Suggestion: Hand held GPS and the seat of your pants. One can tell wind strength and speed by looking at the water. no engine, use a paddle. KISS

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The only electronic device I have on the boat is a Speed Puck and mainly so I can see minute differences in speed as I try various rig setups. Other than that, I don't use it much.

 

The only "device" I have and use on all my boats is a compass. Standard type, not electronic.

 

On small racing type sailboats I've just not seen the need to get fancy. Maybe I've reached that point where technology is finally passing me by, but as far as I'm concerned, part of the lure of sailing these boats is the ability to use your own noggin' while watching the clouds, waves, wind, surface ripples, chop, birds, etc. I think this is a lot of fun, and rewarding when you get it right. It also means you have to pay attention, listen, look and learn. Again, this is the challenge and lure of the sport, for me anyway. A bunch of electronic devices would ruin it for me.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

It's comforting to hear... I have sailed my previous 33' monohull for over 15'000 miles without log and wind instruments, estimating wind speed and true wind angle by looking at the water, apparent wind by looking at tell-tales strung from the cap shrouds... the electronics failed after an electric storm in the Mediterranean sea and by the time I reached the Canary islands, I had learned to do without it so I never bothered to replace it. After a while also the log failed and that wasn't replaced either, but I did have a gps plotter for speed...

 

I thought that on these much faster and reactive boats getting accurate readings on wind speed and wind angle would be a matter of safety, but I guess the boat will have her own way to tell me when she's becoming overpressed ; )

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

push it hard until it capsizes. Then right it and keep sailing. You will have just learned a boundary ;)

 

That does beg the question, tho: Can the Astus 16.5 be righted after capsize, like a Weta?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

It would appear the technique is the same, with float covers apparent on the aft ends of each ama. Of course, there is some additional weight/size to deal with so nothing is certain until it's tried.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The main rig still looks a bit "raggedy" to me. Not many battens, loose leech, etc. Just doesn't look quite "finished" to me. I hope the boat will make a lot of power - I've yet to see anybody hiked out on the ama holding the boat down. I'm hoping the rig will make enough power to easily capsize the boat. If it can't make at least that much power, I'll be disappointed.

 

But I'll know soon enough. My boat will be finished and loaded into the shipping container on April 28th.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The main rig still looks a bit "raggedy" to me. Not many battens, loose leech, etc. Just doesn't look quite "finished" to me. I hope the boat will make a lot of power - I've yet to see anybody hiked out on the ama holding the boat down. I'm hoping the rig will make enough power to easily capsize the boat. If it can't make at least that much power, I'll be disappointed.

 

But I'll know soon enough. My boat will be finished and loaded into the shipping container on April 28th.

Raggedy?

 

Seen the sails in the flesh and they look good, and you dont need a millon battens like a Hobie 16 these days, less battens saves weight. They could probably have a bit more area but remember not every one is Glenn Ashby. The european market is a very different vibe.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I hope you're correct and you very well may be - I'm relying on photos only.

 

I do want a boat that has plenty of power. I'm not buying it to cruise on.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Thanks for the new video. I hadn't seen this one. The boat may well be deceiving. It doesn't look like the sailors are exerting any effort, but obviously they're moving along well.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

When the breeze picks up that little boat can scoot. Looks like a blast. And it appears to have nice balance - not nose diving or trying to bury the amas as it gains power.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The interesting thing about this video is that it appears to have been shot 3 years ago, which would indicate that the Astus 16.5 is not just a johnny come lately, sketched out and produced recently. If it's been in the design stages for 3 years, I assume that they took their time in determining a lot of little things that make the difference in a boat which checks a few of the boxes, and one that actually checks nearly all of them. At least I hope so. I no longer feel like I'm buying a prototype.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The interesting thing about this video is that it appears to have been shot 3 years ago, which would indicate that the Astus 16.5 is not just a johnny come lately, sketched out and produced recently. If it's been in the design stages for 3 years, I assume that they took their time in determining a lot of little things that make the difference in a boat which checks a few of the boxes, and one that actually checks nearly all of them. At least I hope so. I no longer feel like I'm buying a prototype.

I thought the same- unless its just that the camera has the wrong date setting...

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I'm guessing wrong camera setting, as cra-ver noted. That, or Astus accidentally got more advanced in their design of just this 16.5 and not their other boats, and then forgot about it for a couple of years.

 

In any case, from what I've seen so far it's a fun little boat that really accelerates in the puffs!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I'm sure that's a wrong date setting. If you watch the video in YouTube, go to the comment section and you can read that was filmed during the Multigolfe 2016 and published two days ago.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

 

 

Great to see this new upload, the 16.5 , there's not much breeze but the boat moves along nimbly... talking about breeze, I just got back from the Mediterranean Sea, I was on a delivery trip from Brindisi (Puglia) to Alghero (Sardegna), 700 miles of what should have been a glorious sailing in 15-20 knots winds... winds were rather stronger, in the 25-35 knots range, and mostly on the nose... our boat (an Outremer 40/43 catamaran with daggerboards) sailed well the first couple of days, pointing easily 40 degrees to the apparent wind at 9-11 knots until, on the third day, we dismasted !

 

We were beating at 40 degrees to the apparent in 32-33 knots apparent with 1,5 m seas (we were only 6 miles offshore in the Golfo di Squillace). We had two reefs in the main and 1/3 of the solent rolled up which felt perfectly suited to the conditions, the helm was feather light, the waves were not crashing on deck, the leeward bow never buried itself, there was no slamming under the bridge deck... and then, with no warning, all of a sudden the mast parted 1,5 m above the boom (3 m above deck), the top part fell into the sea, the bottom part on the foredeck and the boom on the coachroof, literally 1 cm from my head at the helm station...

 

While disconnecting the shrouds' terminals and cutting loose the rig, we didn't notice any gear failure, all the wires were still under tension... the only thing we couldn't see was the top spreaders, which were below water with the sail wrapped around them.... if the leeward upper spreader parted, this could explain the collapse of the profile at that height, but we can't verify it since the mast sunk in about 700 m of water after we cut it loose... the only other explanation is that the shrouds were not correctly tensed ... the owner later told me that he did notice in the days previous to my arrival that the leeward shrouds never went slack when sailing upwind and that the mast was pumping with a slight snake-like motion...

 

Whatever the reason, it was a close call for me... my guardian angel was on duty though and all went well !

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The 16.5 is a departure from the type boats that Astus has normally built and marketed. The standing line up is comprised of mostly day sailers with an emphasis on comfort and safety more than flat out performance. Of course, they seem to have an excellent reputation for quality and delivery.

 

For the 16.5, as I understand it, they went outside their own design team to VPLP and asked for a more performance oriented hull design. They still saved money by incorporating straight, sliding aka tubes, but other than that the hulls on the 16.5 very much mimic those found on the Diam24, Mod70, etc.

 

I seriously doubt Astus will "upgrade" their other boats with newer hull designs as they already serve their intended market just fine. The interesting thing now will be how well the 16.5 sells. Can it find a market and is the price within the realm of most in that market.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

Cool beans. Results?

Here, please note that this is the result after handicap.

 

Do you know what handicap the Astus 16.5 has been assigned there?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

 

Cool beans. Results?

Here, please note that this is the result after handicap.

 

Do you know what handicap the Astus 16.5 has been assigned there?

 

Sorry,I don't know rating number but it' little bit lower than Weta (so Weta is in theory faster than Astus). I'll send elapsed times later.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I see no way the Weta could/should be faster than the Astus given the sail area versus boat weight, but I'll guess I'm getting ready to find out.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Tom, using the published specification data for the Weta and Astus 16.5, the Weta derives a Texel rating of 103 whilst the Astus 16.5 a 106 Texel rating. If I toy with the formula and add a 180 lb skipper. the numbers come to Weta 122 and Astus 117. Lower of course being 'better', frankly I think the Astus will outperform the Weta quite nicely.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

That's what I was thinking but I deal with D-PN numbers more often, and of course a lower D-PN means a faster boat.

 

The Weta performs exceptionally well, but it's a 240 lb boat with about 225 sq feet of sail while the Astus 16.5 Sport is a 380 lb boat with almost 400 sq feet of sail (my numbers may be off just a tad - I'm going by memory here). If the Astus can't blow by the Weta in any decent wind, I'll be sorely disappointed.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

FWIW:

 

If you apply the Base Speed formula developed by Multihull Dynamics:

 

http://www.multihulldynamics.com/news_article.asp?articleID=226

 

And using the published data for the Weta and Astus with an 85 kg crew on board, you get the following base (average) speeds

 

Weta 7.56 knots working sails and 9.13 knots with screecher.

Astus 8.52 knots working sails and 11.2 knots with screecher.

 

Theoretical top speeds are double this, and from observations of other multihulls of interest to me, in real life you only get around 90% of these speeds. I would be interested to know how you get on.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I would imagine that wave state will matter a small bit less for the Astus... a bit more heft, a bit more waterline, definitely more power to play with, less tender amas... I'll put 50 pesos on the Astus as well!

 

Can't wait for Tom to get his boat on the water.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Waterline length is not always a winner and nor is sail area, you maybe pleasantly surprised that the Astus in my book will be faster in less than 12 knots but unpleasantly surprised in over 12 knots, be slower. Most Euro boats are designed to optimally perform in that 10 - 12 knot wind band and everything above that you are depowering ( creating drag from the sails ). The Weta on the other hand was designed by a New Zealander for much higher coastal breezes and thus at 10 knots is a slow old podgy dog, above that it would appear to come alight and is a real tear away.

 

Tom if you find you are being over powered most of the times as most winds you sail in are above the magic threshold for your boat, then play the handicap game by fitting a smaller blade jib or smaller high aspect main and recalculate the handicap number.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

It's a shame they didn't pass upwind of the camera boat in that video! They died in the lee....

 

The Hobie 16 sailor in me says that thing looks sweet!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

This is all speculation, of course, but given the short mast and conservative sail plan (main and jib) I don't expect it to easily overpower. Even then, the amas, by my estimate, offer about 1100 pounds of flotation. I think, if the sails can generate sufficient power, it'll fly the center hull at which point you get even more righting moment. I'm anxious to find out.

 

They are still loading the boat into the shipping container on the 28th, but it will not arrive in Miami until the first of June now. It's like waiting on a Christmas when you were a kid.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I worded that poorly - flying the center hull would only initially create more righting moment. As it goes higher the righting moment would be reduced.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Thanks for the video. Note the unusual side shroud set up, a "Y" from a ring, which does not appear on any of the company videos. Any idea why they did this?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Thanks for the video. Note the unusual side shroud set up, a "Y" from a ring, which does not appear on any of the company videos. Any idea why they did this?

Just a guess - but it adds a bit of fail safe if the block set lets go and it moves the shroud forward a bit and distributes the load differently on the ama. My setup is pretty similar. I also think this is pretty standard among the Astus lineup.

trimaran_demontable_trailerable_Astus_18

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

It looks like it would be in the way when you try to hike out off the ama. Perhaps that isn't necessary on the larger boats but surely on the 16.5 it would be.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The other photos show a single strongly swept back shroud to near the rear aka. still a bit in the way of where the driver would like to hike when the leeward bow is under pressure off the wind:

 

en%20mer%20%285%29.jpg

 

This angle almost makes it look as though it's too far aft to give the mast enough lateral support, which the split option would handle better (while providing less backstay component):

 

sportif.jpg

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The single rear mounted stays would appear to provide more of a triangle support arrangement. I was only wondering if the split arrangement shown on the latest video is a factory modification or something the new owner/dealer did.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I've found that they're not a problem at all for riding on the ama. It probably will depend on where you like to sit for the balance of that boat. For me it's my favorite driving position when the wind is up to stand outside the shrouds. Having two lines to hang onto is an okay thing. Gives me great visibility of everything going on. I can watch the leward float while I drive and trim. Feels like being on a trap. And - possibly you could hook a trap to the connecting ring with a short cable if you really wanted to.

post-29576-0-55516800-1461777909_thumb.jpg

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The single rear mounted stays would appear to provide more of a triangle support arrangement.

 

Sure, triangles are great unless the mast is too close to the legs of the triangle. I'm sure it's fine, just looks a little unstable from some camera angles, especially with the shortish forestay distance. However, if it were not totally fine, it would motivate the split arrangement. No idea what the real reason was, though.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The only thing I can imagine, since the original design had the shrouds further back, was that the main was laying against the shrouds when sheeted out very far. Although, with this design and the availability of the large headsail, I would rarely have the main sheeted out by much. Downwind I'd rely on a good angle for the headsail with the main sheeted mostly in.

 

Or... the forward aka slip-joint wasn't as movement free as they'd hoped and this is an attempt to put more upward pressure on it.

 

Oh well, if there are no more delays I'll find out the second week of June.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I received a photo today of my boat being loaded onto the container today. It will be heading this way sometime next week and is expected to arrive and move through customs the first week in June.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Is that your boat? What a nice looking ride. Boats that size and weight are just easy to handle.

 

Re the earlier conversation, this one has the regular side stay to the crossbars.

 

Can't wait to see how the boat handles with the kite up in a lot more wind! Curious about the interaction of floats that appear to be of significant volume, but on what feels like a slightly slender beam.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites