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Look at the third photo of the Henderson SR 17 " Fireball " Is this boat the real father of the Raider?

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 I raced the Windmill at the 1985 Yachting mag One of a Kind in Long Beach. Glenn sailed his then new SR 17. In the first race nobody noticed that the RC had changed the course for the non trapeze class. Most of us had to wing on wing to get back to the finish line. Except the SR 17, which figured it out in time. His best race.

And, no, the Raider original designer, John Drawe would not have been familiar with the SR 17. 

My Raider Sport, since sold, beat this SR 17 Stingray in the 2018 Mug Race, 38 miles, by nearly an hour in light air. Dave Ellis

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14 hours ago, K9u20 said:

Supposedly, It was modeled after the Kiwi 35

Wings would have been bigger, sails more area and built lighter if it followed the Kiwi 35 formula.

- Stumbling

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15 hours ago, xonk1 said:

Look at the third photo of the Henderson SR 17 " Fireball " Is this boat the real father of the Raider?

Comment made me wonder...what is the opposite of "bastard child," which arrives every once in a while?  $3800 $coots? Please!

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On 5/20/2019 at 4:39 PM, Doug Halsey said:

Nice-looking Classic Moth (probably a Cates-Moth) in Florida:

https://cfl.craigslist.org/boa/d/sebring-11-sailboat-with-trailer/6848903890.html

Fiberglass hull. Wood deck and bulkheads. No HIN. Main is not loose footed. Main is partial battens and looks on the smaller side. Sliding gooseneck. All wood foils, aluminum spars.  The seller knew basically nothing, thought it was made in Miami. Presumably its a relatively recent (and faithful?) replica of a 60s design?

Capture2.PNG

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11 hours ago, ziper1221 said:

Fiberglass hull. Wood deck and bulkheads. No HIN. Main is not loose footed. Main is partial battens and looks on the smaller side. Sliding gooseneck. All wood foils, aluminum spars.  The seller knew basically nothing, thought it was made in Miami. Presumably its a relatively recent (and faithful?) replica of a 60s design?

Capture2.PNG

I'm pretty sure it's a Cates Moth, which was the dominant design from 1954 (when its designer Warren Bailey won the Nationals) through 1963 (when Bill Schill was the champion). The large photo above makes it appear too narrow, but I believe that's just an illusion.

The name "Cates" referred to Harry Cates, who wasn't the designer, but built a lot of them. Charley Hunt, from the Sebring area (Lake Wales) also built some, apparently in both wood & fiberglass. 

Here's a magazine cover of Bill Schill

BillSchillYachtingCover.thumb.JPG.4fbc6fe899039dc3919bc8fa37ae9abe.JPG

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Re: the Henderson 17 Stingray above...

This boat is in really good shape and quick with any wind at all. He finished just ahead of two out of the three Raiders in the 2018 Mug Race. Price seems low. Must want to sell. Dave Ellis

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And if anybody wants a 2009 Devoti D-One in good condition with a nice dolly and full covers.  PM me.  Will take any reasonable offers and maybe an unreasonable one.

58057760389__F62B1D39-8205-40E5-B919-F5F5C901B6EC.JPG.66f8ec44bee72fa3eca1ec2d22f48022.JPG

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@Doug Halsey Thank you for the information. The first sail was possibly more frustrating than a foiler. Do you know of a classic moth forum? I don't want to derail this thread too much.

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Posted (edited)
9 hours ago, ziper1221 said:

@Doug Halsey

 Thank you for the information. The first sail was possibly more frustrating than a foiler. Do you know of a classic moth forum? I don't want to derail this thread too much.

Wow! You bought that boat? If you have its sail #, maybe we can fill in its history some more.

There's a class for Classic Moths, with a website, Facebook page, and regatta schedules. Lots of people who can help you figure things out.

https://www.mothboat.com/

https://www.facebook.com/groups/1692204464154734/

Good luck & have fun!

Edited by Doug Halsey

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The lime green boat is a time capsule.  Also looks like maybe there are the legendary white capped stiffer top sections (because Laser's are identical you know).  

The orangish one looks like my old boat which was a 74 and a low five digit.  

Wonder how many wooden foils they have?

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Looks to be in very good shape.

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On 6/7/2019 at 12:26 PM, Alan Crawford said:

Never heard of a Barnett 1400 before but here's one in Georgia for $1400. Perhaps World Sailing should take a look at this one for 2024?!

https://atlanta.craigslist.org/nat/boa/d/gainesville-barnett-1400/6888238996.html

 

Screen Shot 2019-06-07 at 11.23.54 AM.png

Maybe it was in 1983 when USSailing used this boat to determine who is the best sailor in the United States Of America. 

USSailing  is to sailing as the USGA is to golf. 

In 1994 USSailing used ZUMAs. That, of course, was a lot like using Wiffle golf balls for the golf US Open.

In fact, I contend, the O’Day Trophy is the singular most glaring example of why USSailing should be disbanded and replaced with a real National sailboat Racing Authority. 

 

 

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$600???

Only personal inspection will determine the value of what it might take to define the cost to demolish some rigs. IOW, sometimes even free is too much.

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Looks new...How can someone refurb a boat and not want it love it? Lightning...I see.

 

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There must be something wrong with this ad. The pictured condition of this Lightning is so good that the brightwork alone seems to be worth more than $2500. Notice that the shop is also spotless. Best value in the history of sailing?

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The $5500 west coast perfect Wood Thistle was real. 

If I had any use fir a Lightning I sure would be interested. Allen makes  great Lightnings and always has , 

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I too was confoosed; thought the boat was new...maybe photos are from when it was new...always inspect...in person...even for a Laser or Lightning.

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MXRay in Pensacola craigslist. $1500

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https://washingtondc.craigslist.org/mld/boa/d/bethesda-fireball-racing-sailboat/6912581742.html

Not sure their information is correct. Steve Benjamin did win the worlds in 76 and 77... but not in this boat. He did it in 10149. He may have sailed this boat at one point. 

Could be a decent old boat, if it was really well kept. not a wide bow, though.

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46 minutes ago, Mike J said:

MXRay in Pensacola craigslist. $1500

I'll see your MXRay in Pensacola and drop it $675 for one in Salt Lake City.   $825 MX Ray in sunny Salt Lake City

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1 hour ago, dgmckim said:

https://washingtondc.craigslist.org/mld/boa/d/bethesda-fireball-racing-sailboat/6912581742.html

Not sure their information is correct. Steve Benjamin did win the worlds in 76 and 77... but not in this boat. He did it in 10149. He may have sailed this boat at one point. 

Could be a decent old boat, if it was really well kept. not a wide bow, though.

1

I thought they used some instagram 70s sepia filter, but now I think it's actually a photo from the 70s. 

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3 hours ago, Schnappi said:

I thought they used some instagram 70s sepia filter, but now I think it's actually a photo from the 70s. 

Agree, old photo of a Rondar Fireball with original Van Zandt sails from around 1973.  Me and my brothers sailed Rondar hull #8571 ex-Graham Hall (2nd in the ‘72 Worlds in Torbay UK) and we saw it on CL in Ohio recently. These old Rondars can be rehabilitated for daysailing and blasting around sheltered water in breeze.

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The Moore of Wroxham boats were garbage . I owned five minutes got as a cheap deal to re-build a dying fleet. I took the decks off and did significant reinforcing and almost made them sorta competitive but they still sucked. 

My old #1300 wood boat was a leg faster on a double triangle. ( so I parked it and sailed a junket so the fleet could be one design. )

 

Odds are good this boat was imported by Bill Houston and sold by him on the Rast coast when he was trying to beat out the 420 as the junior boat 

when he failed he brought ten back to Austin . I think three are still in an east austin warehouse along with his Tempest. Bill passed a few years ago. I lack the ambition to go find his son and see if he still has his Dad’s boats. 

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7 hours ago, Frumious Bandersnatch said:

Agree, old photo of a Rondar Fireball with original Van Zandt sails from around 1973.  Me and my brothers sailed Rondar hull #8571 ex-Graham Hall (2nd in the ‘72 Worlds in Torbay UK) and we saw it on CL in Ohio recently. These old Rondars can be rehabilitated for daysailing and blasting around sheltered water in breeze.

That boat used to race with us in Central North Carolina about a decade ago, if I remember the sail number correctly.

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https://meadville.craigslist.org/boa/d/cambridge-springs-mfg-copperhead-racing/6916596571.html

 

Looks like the original 1972 Sail. The Copperhead had a three year head start on the laser but the idiots built it at twice the weight of McAlpine-Downey’s design. 

Thus guy didn’t raise his Sail all the way but the design called for a hinged gooseneck and  boom with a fork around the mast to make a gooseneck .

the sail had a slot half way up and the halyard was tied there over a couple pins in the long skinny mast ( same diameter as Laser top section )

the stub masts were fragile shit and kept folding over Until this author took the company’s owner’s Daughter for a ride and folded a mast. The next day we recalled all the masts and sent out better ones.

the rest of the rigging sucked. There was no vang. Nothing but the mainsheet and halyard  couid be adjusted without untying and retying knots. 

Notice the cockpit is passenger friendly and the deck is much more friendly to the backs of a hiker’s legs. 

The aluminum rudder was replaced with a fiberglass foil soon after this boat built. ( I won an argument)

The wood slab ctb  was replaced with a fiberglass foil  ( I won another)

the hiking strap in the center of the boat was my change. Previously they were mounted along the cockpit walls.

i tried!!! I built a 100 pound hull and deck and tested the hell out of it in huge waves on Lake Erie. It was fabulous but they insisted I chop it up and dispose of it.

i demonstrated a version with a 4:1 harken vang ... the same fiddle with. becket  and cams   And fiddle block most J-24s used a few years later. 

Nope... not even as an accessory 

I set up the same Herken set up for the mainsheet... nope!! Not even as an accessory 

i set up an easy to adjust outhaul with a sliding sleeve .... like Lasers use now,.. and a pulley / cheat system that let the sailor adjust the oithaul .... not led to the deck . I wasn’t that clever 

another nope 

 So, somewhere around 1400 boats sales stopped dead and smart people bought Lasers. 

Even with the shit sail and rig and the overweight boat I could Sail a Copperhead around a course faster than my friends who had Lasers. 

MFG took a fantastic design and absolutely blew it 

Luckily for me Playcraft Charger bought the tooling in 1980 , never built Copperheads, refused to sell me the tooling every time I called through 1999. 

When I called again a few years ago they told me they had recently bulldozed the tooling for all eleven MFG Sailboats.

otherwise I would have built some Copperheads my way. 

I could certainly build them at 80 pounds and throw on good foils and rigging... thank god the molds were smashed 

 

CED2214B-BCDB-4A4B-8FD6-19506280BF53.jpeg

5BBDAC68-43CF-4981-85B4-DC55054A933C.jpeg

E4F94FA8-0FCD-44DA-89D4-A9F18C35FA93.jpeg

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https://elmira.craigslist.org/boa/d/elmira-sailboat/6912707337.html

a Whistler!!

The guy even posted a photo of me sailing in the next  year’s catalog shot!! 

The Fred Ford Design actually  sailed pretty well. I used to sail one most of the winter on Erie Bay without getting wet. 

Winnning the Nationals six times  was easier than winning an Austin Wednesday night race. 

17AF7650-99B2-4AF5-9E68-72C37E20B11B.jpeg

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Pic of canoe with lateen and boards (post 2039) is reminiscent of first rig I took my then fiance for sailboat ride...

Naturally, board went loose and we ended up in shore mush in Waupaca, WI,  ...and tipped...she thought it was quicksand but never been much inclined to athleticism...

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I have a 505 mast of the same vintage ...

how’s $500 

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I have a 505 for sale, a Ballenger, e-glass over foam, 1980's hull # 7133. It needs some refin, ie, cboard gasket and cboard refinish. No sails, all lost in fire, with trailer. Will be on ebay this weekend.

505 WORK.jpg

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@ortegakid

Last winter... pre massive throw away binge... i had sails. I might still have them.

pretty certain I have the spinnaker 

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On 6/20/2019 at 9:24 AM, dgmckim said:

That boat used to race with us in Central North Carolina about a decade ago, if I remember the sail number correctly.

Correct, we sold it to a fleetbuilder type sailor/businessman who was looking for Fireballs to sell to his Wrightsville Beach NC buddies.  In 1981 or 82, I trailered it from LIS to VA to meet his driver about halfway and even got $1k for it. The owner (Dad) was shocked to get anything for it.

We had our eyes on Tarzan's Lindsey 505 that had been repaired, but ended up doing the IOR thing for a few years before doing Sonars for a bit. 

Anybody interested in a very competitive Interclub frostbite racer?, very stiff with cored hull and boxed rails, Lindsey Blades.  Very light weight, under the lightest minimum Manhasset/ Larchmont weight. Always stored indoors.

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Hey, Alice...! You have a decent Interclub...? the "Tubby (IC frosty)? Or the hottie? 

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Did not see above, 'til after posting...got a pic of the IC? 

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15 hours ago, Gouvernail said:

@ortegakid

Last winter... pre massive throw away binge... i had sails. I might still have them.

pretty certain I have the spinnaker 

ADVISE, WANT, THX!

AND WHOEVER IS WANTING THE INTERCLUB, HAVE A MAIN FOR ONE, WILL GIVE TO YA, JUST PAY SHIPPING.

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On 6/22/2019 at 3:32 AM, Frumious Bandersnatch said:

Moved it outside for Spring garage cleaning

B6909-E3-B-C2-D7-4904-B340-9-E960-A0-C1-

How much do you want for it?

 

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I would so love to show up with that boat and sail through the Friday Night Beercan Fleet....... one time... the novelty would almost instantly  be replaced by the disgust  of sailing that piece of shit 

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1 hour ago, Gouvernail said:

I would so love to show up with that boat and sail through the Friday Night Beercan Fleet....... one time... the novelty would almost instantly  be replaced by the disgust  of sailing that piece of shit 

This was my fave

Image result for kool cigarette sailboat

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If you have a fleet of them then you'll need a rescue boat.

Here's what I nominate:

Related image

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9 hours ago, BruceH-NZ said:

If you have a fleet of them then you'll need a rescue boat.

Here's what I nominate:

Related image

Ahhh, Florida Man's boat.    When you get to where you are going, drop the motor, flip the boat into dinner table mode and unload the picnic basket!

Now he needs some folding chairs to complete the ensemble...

- Stumbling

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10 hours ago, bill4 said:

This was my fave

Image result for kool cigarette sailboat

With a Kool Menthol dangling from your lips!

- Stumbling

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Always figured these things were a fine if snarky example of the "dim American pub"lick."

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2 hours ago, BobBill said:

Always figured these things were a fine if snarky example of the "dim American pub"lick."

$88 and a  carton flap would get you one of the Kool boats.   17,000 were sold....    You could also get a Budweiser, Coca-cola, Vicks and Mail-away photo processing service.

Hell of a marketing tool.   Total number of Snark/Super Sea Snarks sold were 200,000.

- Stumbling

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7 minutes ago, stumblingthunder said:

$88 and a  carton flap would get you one of the Kool boats.   17,000 were sold....    You could also get a Budweiser, Coca-cola, Vicks and Mail-away photo processing service.

Hell of a marketing tool.   Total number of Snark/Super Sea Snarks sold were 200,000.

- Stumbling

They'd make a hell of a good one-design class IMHO, except nobody would care about banging them into each other.

FB- Doug

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21 minutes ago, Steam Flyer said:

They'd make a hell of a good one-design class IMHO, except nobody would care about banging them into each other.

FB- Doug

Only if they are ones with the skins.  Otherwise the racecourse would be covered in styrene balls and swimming competitors.

- Stumbling

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Yikes, there must be one resting in the Mariana...

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17 hours ago, Steam Flyer said:

They'd make a hell of a good one-design class IMHO, except nobody would care about banging them into each other.

FB- Doug

Or being "chunked"/sinking.

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Watch y'll think?   I just found this on Craigs.  FD.  

image.png.5a826b684788daa538c701e48befdf98.png

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The question is - do you want a Flying Dutchman? What will you do with her? Could be great>

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On 6/24/2019 at 8:13 PM, BobBill said:

Yikes, there must be one resting in the Mariana...

I bet the ghostly remains of thousands of them are in the Pacific and Atlantic Gyres.

- Stumbling

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11 hours ago, xonk1 said:

The question is - do you want a Flying Dutchman? What will you do with her? Could be great>

The question is: You do not want a Flying Dutchman? WTF is wrong with you??

Yes it would be great.

FB- Doug

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Doug, lots of rigs are kewl...must be something wrong with me!

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1 hour ago, Steve Clark said:

THAT Flying Dutchman looks pretty weird,

SHC

Yeah I'm not crazy about bench seating in a relatively small relatively high performance boat. I wonder who built it. Gotta a lotta "stuff" in there which could mean anything. The old FD I bought ($300) was mostly complete but did not have the little snubbing winch; the rest of the hardware was low-grade replacements for the vintage stuff that came on it. A lot of old boats are not complete, don't have all the hardware much less the running rigging or the sails they should have.

 

 

27 minutes ago, BobBill said:

Doug, lots of rigs are kewl...must be something wrong with me!

Sure, agreed. An FD would be an expensive boat to restore so even if you were paid to take it, you could end up with a relatively pricey ride. Probably he best bet would be to look for one that was a recent racing fleet drop-out and had good sails, combi trailer, etc etc.

But it's a beautiful boat, and even an old one with a clotheshanger/duct tape rig will be fun and challenging to to sail.

I never did much with the one I bought, and ended up giving it away to an ambitious young man after Hurr. Florence

FB- Doug

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Aye, Some rigs are class, and some are otherwise...do we want another's hobby (See the rig above 30 miles from me Goevernail found in LAX WI) Depends on use and you, I'd say...me happy in decent tubby or outrigger (not a shunter though). 

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As it goes...Flyer...see Black Magic first rig on Front Page - class! To me! But, have surviving/abiding weakness for "keelers"...but I know am sick. 

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WHAT SAIL # IS IT, OR SEND ME AD, AM LOOKING AGAIN,THX!

 

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Ortega Kid, refer to your message, you said you would send me Interclub sail for cost to ship on Monday...I am confused. H.

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Shipped yesterday, buy me a beer sometime, all good

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I refurbished a 1946 Star I bought with really nice sails for $300 in the late sixties and raced it in the early 1970s. We managed to push it to near the front end of the fleet a couple times and a guy bought it from me because he wanted to put the keel on a new boat he was having built.  He didn’t even want the sails or mast and boom. His $2500 pretty much completed the financing for my senior year of college, new sails for my Fireball, and a 1969 Corolla. 

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You did very well...with good judgement to begin with, and dumb luck, life can be good. Sometimes labor pays off and sometimes a really foul rig is better than it appears and ends up the gem.

The opposite, of course, is true.

Some rigs, for me, concern me storage and use-wyze more than the labor...where to keep it and use it.

For example, this rig is a whiz but good water and place to keep is not so "whizzy," so what to do?

 

GnarlyStreet05.1.jpg

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If someone will promise to take that Star away in a week or two,  I'll buy it just to troll my family and neighbors. It's just a few miles from me. Sad to break up the Bahama, North Carolina Star fleet though.

(That's pronounced buh HAY muh)

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30 minutes ago, BobBill said:

"Buh-hay-muh?" 

Exactly

Except that you can't get there from here

FB- Doug

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17 minutes ago, Schnappi said:

1936?  JFK could have sailed against this boat. 

Could have, the age say much, much more.

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Firewood.

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On 6/26/2019 at 9:40 PM, dgmckim said:

anyone feeling ambitious? could be some potential here. claims to be from 1936.

https://raleigh.craigslist.org/bod/d/durham-1936-star-sailboat-with-mast/6920510389.html

image.png.72b9c20ba101b88de209ce2b8db46726.png

image.png.3cdb422f4c369ce0737e6f2afc320899.png

This boat looks like it was only ignored for the past 25 years or so. What a shame. It was probably a nice toy for fifty years and, had anybody given a shit, it would be a grand old toy today 

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