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frustratedRC

How to deal with a dangerously incompetent sailor?

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I'm keeping this sufficiently vague to not name names or play "guess which fleet",

 

We have a competitor in our local racing area for the last few years who is out of control.

 

These are 30-50 foot keelboats, often fairly casual racing. Our races are open to any competitor with a valid phrf cert, and we'd like to keep it that way if possible. We're not trying to be exclusive.

 

We have a growing fleet, and want to be open and encourage more racers, but one individual has been involved in multiple collisions, and has near-misses almost every week. Even after being found at fault by a protest committee he refuses to accept any responsibility, or even recognize his lack of understanding of the racing rules, or basic sailing for that matter. He has been responsible for 100% of our protests for the last few years, and has lost all of them.

 

He is always DFL, and burns through crew continuously.

 

There are a few owners of racer/cruisers who refuse to come out on the racecourse because of him, and those of us running our small club are worried it is only a matter of time until he injures someone.

 

What would you all do?

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Sounds like you're not a member of the sponsoring/organizing committee. If you were, your options would have been discussed and you'd know what they are.

 

I don't think we can be of much help. Sounds like you need to take your beef to the people in charge. If he's as bad as you say and they don't think there's a problem or a means of addressing it, maybe you need a new committee.

 

But if pressed I suppose there might be some recourse related to persistent unsportsmanlike behavior.

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Document, document, document.

 

It is difficult to just "Ban" someone from your activity without looking like you are discriminating arbitrarily - which can get you sued, so it falls to the competitors to Protest Properly, the Protest committee to decide against the boat clearly and, if they fail to attend hearings or acknowledge the authority of the governing body, then to take appropriate action - up to and including a ban from competition -short of that all you can do is " name and shame " them - which will look like just being catty to anyone outside the fleet.

 

A destructive competitor is a bad pest to have - I have also witnessed a fleet disintegrate for the affects of a competitor that managed to be involved in EVERY PROTEST filed in the fleet for a year -- and the really strange part was the guy was fast ! He just couldn't manage to NOT push EVERY bad position he'd find himself in, into an ugly conflict.

 

Bad for the sport.

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IIRC a race organizing group can refuse an entry, as long as the refusal and reason is stated in writing. So the YC merely has to send the individual a letter uninviting him from further participation, including the reason why. You might get sued, however.

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just add a few globs of epoxy to the keel, then he won't be close enough to anyone to cause a problem....

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Suijin,

 

I AM part of the committee, and we unanimously agree we want to do something about it.

 

I'm sorry we don't know what all of our options are, hence this post looking for advice, and ideally experiences if any others here have dealt with this situation before.

 

he DOES show up to the protest, and unfortunately IS the type to sue our tiny club out of existence.

 

We have documentation of the incidents. What else should we document?

 

Thanks again for all of your input.

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I'm keeping this sufficiently vague to not name names or play "guess which fleet",

 

We have a competitor in our local racing area for the last few years who is out of control.

 

These are 30-50 foot keelboats, often fairly casual racing. Our races are open to any competitor with a valid phrf cert, and we'd like to keep it that way if possible. We're not trying to be exclusive.

 

We have a growing fleet, and want to be open and encourage more racers, but one individual has been involved in multiple collisions, and has near-misses almost every week. Even after being found at fault by a protest committee he refuses to accept any responsibility, or even recognize his lack of understanding of the racing rules, or basic sailing for that matter. He has been responsible for 100% of our protests for the last few years, and has lost all of them.

 

He is always DFL, and burns through crew continuously.

 

There are a few owners of racer/cruisers who refuse to come out on the racecourse because of him, and those of us running our small club are worried it is only a matter of time until he injures someone.

 

What would you all do?

 

 

tell dennis to fuck off..

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Can't you eject him from the club for unsportsmanlike conduct or something?

 

In the employment world the way to prevent lawsuits is referred to as "Progessive Discipline". Verbal warning, documented verbal warning, written warning with "may result in termination" in the text, final warning with "WILL result in termination" in the text, written termination.

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Is there anything you could R2 him for? Would provide clear grounds for 'suspension'.

 

Other than that, you could get someone he respects to talk him into hiring a pro, to at least to smooth off some of the edges.

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We've been trying to talk him into getting a pro onboard for a long time. Have had some sail with him for free.

He won't listen to any input at all.

I've had some of my crew who he knew sail with him, and he wouldn't even let them put the jib cars in the right place or tension the outhaul, he continues to sail upwind with half of his jib luffing and the foot of the mainsail sagging 10+inches away from the boom and the leech closed.

 

Re: R2: How do we "clearly establish the recognized principles of sportsmanship and fair play have been violated"?

 

SloopJonB: we have our races open to non-club members and would like to keep it that way if possible.

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We had a guy that I'll refer to as "Crash-Bang! Joe" that our esteemed race chairman had to have a quiet word with - on more than one occasion, but I don't THINK he was ever actually banned, unlike the person at the center of the protest web, - who eventually earned himself a Rule 69 ban for a year - but only after killing at least one good fleet forever.

 

I don't think that he can sue you for asking him not to compete. Invite him before the race officers to discuss the number of incidents over the past season and state that a number of skippers have asked that he not race - and that if he does, they won't. Simple as that - it would be useful to have your facts straight however, and perhaps have a few well-regarded programs state that they aren't going to put their crew in jeopardy due to his demonstrated bad judgment anymore. It is short of a ban, but legal.

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I'm keeping this sufficiently vague to not name names or play "guess which fleet",

 

We have a competitor in our local racing area for the last few years who is out of control.

 

These are 30-50 foot keelboats, often fairly casual racing. Our races are open to any competitor with a valid phrf cert, and we'd like to keep it that way if possible. We're not trying to be exclusive.

 

We have a growing fleet, and want to be open and encourage more racers, but one individual has been involved in multiple collisions, and has near-misses almost every week. Even after being found at fault by a protest committee he refuses to accept any responsibility, or even recognize his lack of understanding of the racing rules, or basic sailing for that matter. He has been responsible for 100% of our protests for the last few years, and has lost all of them.

 

He is always DFL, and burns through crew continuously.

 

There are a few owners of racer/cruisers who refuse to come out on the racecourse because of him, and those of us running our small club are worried it is only a matter of time until he injures someone.

 

What would you all do?

Just decline his race entry.

 

Simple.

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We got someone like that.

 

He's a small-business owner... go figure.

See's everybody else as his inferior, to be bossed around.

 

Not only does he screw with his own class (PHRF), he screws up other classes and fleets (One Design).

He has lost every protest. He has caused semi-serious damage (necessitating haul-out.)

 

ass_hat.jpg

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Suijin,

 

I AM part of the committee, and we unanimously agree we want to do something about it.

 

I'm sorry we don't know what all of our options are, hence this post looking for advice, and ideally experiences if any others here have dealt with this situation before.

 

he DOES show up to the protest, and unfortunately IS the type to sue our tiny club out of existence.

 

We have documentation of the incidents. What else should we document?

 

Thanks again for all of your input.

See my first post.

 

Can't play nicely and is a danger to other boats and crew. Gone.

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talk to the ph board and adjust his rating out of sight

 

does your ph rules require limit marks? does he have them?

 

 

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I'm not sure if you've done this yet, but maybe try having him meet with the committee and tell him politely but frankly what's written above? Explain that bc of the complaints and concerns, he's facing suspension/expulsion. Offer that if he wants remedial instruction on the rules or tactical help on the course, someone with the committee will teach him rules and/or go out sailing with him to coach. Follow through if he accepts. If he refuses, then impose a clear fleet-wide disciplinary process. Run him through the steps (warnings, suspension, expulsion) being sure to do same warnings etc for anyone else.

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Up the insurance requirements for anyone with an at fault on the water incident. If it's 2 mil, go 5. Ask anyone with at fault on the water incident to pay a damage deposit of a few grand. Should put a damper on his entertainment.

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Now, howabout - what do we do with a drunken sailor ?

Put him in the longboat until he's sober?

Er.....early in the morning.

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take him to a fellow competitors meeting in the parking lot and allow him to suggest a solution to the problem if it's not satisfactory to the fellow competitors then

force a solution that everyone agrees with.

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Use your rulebook to ban his entry. If you need legal ammo, it's all in there,....

Basic Principles... First sentence of the first paragraph

Part 1 Fundamental Rules ... Rule 3 is the contract to abide by the rules and use Rule 2 as soon as you can document a specific instance in a race.

Part 5 Protest, Redress, Hearings, Misconduct and Appeals.... Rule 69

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I'm not sure if you've done this yet, but maybe try having him meet with the committee and tell him politely but frankly what's written above? Explain that bc of the complaints and concerns, he's facing suspension/expulsion. Offer that if he wants remedial instruction on the rules or tactical help on the course, someone with the committee will teach him rules and/or go out sailing with him to coach. Follow through if he accepts. If he refuses, then impose a clear fleet-wide disciplinary process. Run him through the steps (warnings, suspension, expulsion) being sure to do same warnings etc for anyone else.

This is probably the safest way to do it to avoid being sued but I think with your documentation you could exclude him now. Look at rule 76 and follow it to the letter.

 

Proven danger to himself and others is a legitimate reason to ban someone. While the safety of a crew is ultimately up to the individual boat/captain/crew, I think that the club and RC that run the races has a responsibility to do what they can to ensure a hazard free racecourse: this includes taking boats that have proven themselves to routinely be a safety risk off the course.

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It sounds like he is close to infringing on Rule 2:

2 FAIR SAILING
A boat and her owner shall compete in compliance with recognized
principles of sportsmanship and fair play. A boat may be penalized
under this rule only if it is clearly established that these principles
have been violated. A disqualification under this rule shall not be
excluded from the boat’s series score.

 

There is not much wiggle room to exclude a race application:

76 EXCLUSION OF BOATS OR COMPETITORS
76.1 The organizing authority or the race committee may reject or cancel
the entry of a boat or exclude a competitor, subject to rule 76.2,
provided it does so before the start of the first race and states the
reason for doing so. However, the organizing authority or the race
committee shall not reject or cancel the entry of a boat or exclude a
competitor because of advertising, provided the boat or competitor
complies with ISAF Regulation 20, Advertising Code.
76.2 At world and continental championships no entry within stated
quotas shall be rejected or cancelled without first obtaining the
approval of the relevant international class association (or the
Offshore Racing Council) or the ISAF.

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Can't you eject him from the club for unsportsmanlike conduct or something?

 

In the employment world the way to prevent lawsuits is referred to as "Progessive Discipline". Verbal warning, documented verbal warning, written warning with "may result in termination" in the text, final warning with "WILL result in termination" in the text, written termination.

 

We've been trying to talk him into getting a pro onboard for a long time. Have had some sail with him for free.

He won't listen to any input at all.

I've had some of my crew who he knew sail with him, and he wouldn't even let them put the jib cars in the right place or tension the outhaul, he continues to sail upwind with half of his jib luffing and the foot of the mainsail sagging 10+inches away from the boom and the leech closed.

 

Re: R2: How do we "clearly establish the recognized principles of sportsmanship and fair play have been violated"?

 

SloopJonB: we have our races open to non-club members and would like to keep it that way if possible.

I was going to say before going all legal, suspension, insurance on him trying talking with him first. MOST people will get it and want to improve and realize they are not helping their fleet, club and racing with how they are sailing. And he is DFL all the time? WOW MOST people would figure out something is not right with how they are racing at that point.

 

Obviously in this case you are dealing with somebody that is so dense light bends around him. I am not even sure he is a couple cans short, the entire 6 pack is missing!!!

 

Maybe try talking again but sounds like you might have to take on one of the legal routes suggested. Sucks! Go Luck!

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If you need legal ammo, it's all in there,....

Basic Principles..9

That sounds a little harsh.

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The options are short:

1. Someone of respect needs to have a quiet sit down with him.

2. If he is causing enough collisions and being found guilty and paying for the damage, eventually no insurance company will insure him.

3. Excluding a boat is incredibly difficult. The best one is a RRS 69, because if it is successful the process includes the backing of US Sailing. But can collisions simply be called "unsportsmanlike conduct?" One would need proof of intent, which anyone with any sense would not admit to.

 

I'll bet it will be #2 that gets him to go away.

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It sounds like he is close to infringing on Rule 2:

 

2 FAIR SAILING

A boat and her owner shall compete in compliance with recognized

principles of sportsmanship and fair play. A boat may be penalized

under this rule only if it is clearly established that these principles

have been violated. A disqualification under this rule shall not be

excluded from the boats series score.

 

There is not much wiggle room to exclude a race application:

76 EXCLUSION OF BOATS OR COMPETITORS

76.1 The organizing authority or the race committee may reject or cancel

the entry of a boat or exclude a competitor, subject to rule 76.2,

provided it does so before the start of the first race and states the

reason for doing so. However, the organizing authority or the race

committee shall not reject or cancel the entry of a boat or exclude a

competitor because of advertising, provided the boat or competitor

complies with ISAF Regulation 20, Advertising Code.

76.2 At world and continental championships no entry within stated

quotas shall be rejected or cancelled without first obtaining the

approval of the relevant international class association (or the

Offshore Racing Council) or the ISAF.

76.2 wouldn't apply because this is a small series not a world or continental championship.

 

I may not be reading 76.1 right but to me it gives the organizers a lot of authority in banning a competitor.

 

If they were really worried about legal ramifications they could write something like a three strikes and you're out rule in the SIs and then ban the offender after his third strike.

 

But I still think a 'menace to the safety of everyone' reason is plenty for 76.1.

 

I actually like it more than fair sailing, rule 69 and the other suggestions along those lines. Especially when worried about a lawsuit, I would like to keep everything as clear cut as possible. Not to mention as understandable to non-sailors as possible.

 

"He has a long documented history of collisions and near collisions and we banned him before he seriously injures someone." Anyone can understand that and agree with the reasoning behind the decision.

 

Edit: 76.2 as used here may actually be 76.3 in the current rules. It wouldn't change my interpretation of it.

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I'm not sure if you've done this yet, but maybe try having him meet with the committee and tell him politely but frankly what's written above? Explain that bc of the complaints and concerns, he's facing suspension/expulsion. Offer that if he wants remedial instruction on the rules or tactical help on the course, someone with the committee will teach him rules and/or go out sailing with him to coach. Follow through if he accepts. If he refuses, then impose a clear fleet-wide disciplinary process. Run him through the steps (warnings, suspension, expulsion) being sure to do same warnings etc for anyone else.

 

I think the RC has grounds with Rule #2. If they want to soften it a bit (and are not obligated to), refer him to a rules seminar or suggest he seek crewing opportunities on other boats to gain experience -- I wouldn't offer to set that up since that places the burden on the RC. Of course, he may have to go someplace else, but that's not really your problem.

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You guys are such a bunch of PC pussies.

 

Beat the shit out of the guy in the parking lot, drill holes in his hull, light his boat on fire, Molotov Cocktail his house, fuck his wife, steal his dog.

 

Tell him to just go the fuck away, if you're not in to physical measures

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You guys are such a bunch of PC pussies.

 

Beat the shit out of the guy in the parking lot, drill holes in his hull, light his boat on fire, Molotov Cocktail his house, fuck his wife, steal his dog.

 

Tell him to just go the fuck away, if you're not in to physical measures

If he had a hot wife, they would not be on here whining..

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You guys are such a bunch of PC pussies.

 

Beat the shit out of the guy in the parking lot, drill holes in his hull, light his boat on fire, Molotov Cocktail his house, fuck his wife, steal his dog.

 

Tell him to just go the fuck away, if you're not in to physical measures

 

Found a "Dickhead Trophy" and let him win it every time.

Write "Beware of Incompetent Skipper!" on his topsides with ductape.

Write "Gay Sailors League International" on his spinnaker with spray paint.

Pull all his running rigging out and leave it in a creative macamée on his fordeck.

Attach a blow-up sex doll to his stern.

Fill his engine exhaust with Sikaflex.

Chain his boat to the dock underwater.

Attach his propeller backways.

Get a few boats to cover him all the time, everywhere.

Glue his companionway shut with epoxy.

Glue his head shut with epoxy.

Pee in his freshwater tank.

Put the video of you peeing in his freshatwer tank on youtube.

Introduce your bowman to his daughter.

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while 10thtonner is spot on,

 

if he wont listen to people on his boat, could he brought on someone else's to observe? obviously it may not have much of a effect, but after the aforementioned "here's the deal" speech, maybe he'll listen.

 

or take 10thtonner's advice.

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If he is sailing as badly as you say why the fuck does it matter what he does?? You should be long gone by the time he even gets close to the start line. Just avoid at start and go... <_<

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Had some one like this at a club i sail at, not an asshole though, just had no fucking clue.

 

He got told that it was a condition of his being able to continue racing that he have a pro acceptable to the club next to him on the boat at all times. Hasn't been a problem since and I think must have learned something because I think the restriction has been lifted.

 

But for fuck sake harden up and do something.

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You guys are such a bunch of PC pussies.

 

Beat the shit out of the guy in the parking lot, drill holes in his hull, light his boat on fire, Molotov Cocktail his house, fuck his wife, steal his dog.

 

Tell him to just go the fuck away, if you're not in to physical measures

 

Found a "Dickhead Trophy" and let him win it every time.

Write "Beware of Incompetent Skipper!" on his topsides with ductape.

Write "Gay Sailors League International" on his spinnaker with spray paint.

Pull all his running rigging out and leave it in a creative macamée on his fordeck.

Attach a blow-up sex doll to his stern.

Fill his engine exhaust with Sikaflex.

Chain his boat to the dock underwater.

Attach his propeller backways.

Get a few boats to cover him all the time, everywhere.

Glue his companionway shut with epoxy.

Glue his head shut with epoxy.

Pee in his freshwater tank.

Put the video of you peeing in his freshatwer tank on youtube.

Introduce your bowman to his daughter.

 

 

You could shit in a bag, light it on fire, leave it by his front door, ring the bell and run. But that would be childish

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I'd talk to the National Authority and get their advice. Getting a protest escalated beyond club level might be an option, but getting him on other boats to see how it should be done is probably most positive.

 

I do wonder about people though. Some of the dumbass posts in this thread, neither funny or useful. What is the point of posting that garbage?

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Surely you have a few lawyers in your club or on the committee who can advise the legal issues, will depend on the club's constitution, etc.

Once you are on clear ground there, then go through the steps mentioned above: committee documents the problems; respected club member has a quiet word; then a corporate-style discipline/termination process.

Tedious but necessary these days.

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We got someone like that.

 

He's a small-business owner... go figure.

See's everybody else as his inferior, to be bossed around.

 

That's a rather long bow you draw there mate.

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You guys are such a bunch of PC pussies.

 

Beat the shit out of the guy in the parking lot, drill holes in his hull, light his boat on fire, Molotov Cocktail his house, fuck his wife, steal his dog.

 

Tell him to just go the fuck away, if you're not in to physical measures

 

 

 

Found a "Dickhead Trophy" and let him win it every time.

Write "Beware of Incompetent Skipper!" on his topsides with ductape.

Write "Gay Sailors League International" on his spinnaker with spray paint.

Pull all his running rigging out and leave it in a creative macamée on his fordeck.

Attach a blow-up sex doll to his stern.

Fill his engine exhaust with Sikaflex.

Chain his boat to the dock underwater.

Attach his propeller backways.

Get a few boats to cover him all the time, everywhere.

Glue his companionway shut with epoxy.

Glue his head shut with epoxy.

Pee in his freshwater tank.

Put the video of you peeing in his freshatwer tank on youtube.

Introduce your bowman to his daughter.

You could shit in a bag, light it on fire, leave it by his front door, ring the bell and run. But that would be childish

Or just throw a couple severely mangled up cotter pins on deck. That usually stops the b.s. right there until rig is inspected.....and even then it's in the back of of said asshats mind where did they belong?

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You guys are such a bunch of PC pussies.

 

Beat the shit out of the guy in the parking lot, drill holes in his hull, light his boat on fire, Molotov Cocktail his house, fuck his wife daughter, steal his dog.

 

Tell him to just go the fuck away, if you're not in to physical measures

 

I'm all for kicking the shit out of him in the parking lot.

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We got someone like that.

 

He's a small-business owner... go figure.

Sees everybody else as his inferior, to be bossed around.

 

That's a rather long bow you draw there mate.

 

 

You are right; there are small business owners who are not assholes.

He is not one of them, though.

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Make your series the XYZ Invitational. Don't invite him.

That's basically what our club did with a habitual asshat. no muss no fuss.

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Most club fleets have someone like this at some point. Just spread the word for no one to talk to him or sail with him. he will soon go somewhere else.

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To speed up rule #2 from Glen McCarthy, contact his insurer with the list of protests, decisions and collisions. Make sure your racing requirements include insurance amount and current coverage.

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You underestimate the urge of some people to be asshats. We had one guy that raced singlehanded in a not-singlehanded class, got in everyone's way, was always on the bow under autopilot when you called starboard, etc. etc.

He got protested out of EVERY race and kept coming back.

Stop scoring him.

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You have to be VERY careful here or you will be vulnerable to a lawsuit under the Ted Stevens Act. Please consult a lawyer who is familiar with the Ted Stevens Act because it is a minefield. I also strongly encourage you to involve a U.S. Sailing certified Judge. If this guy is litigious he can easily bankrupt your Club if you follow any of the advice in this thread. If you want to exclude him you will need to dot every i and dot every t to be on safe ground.

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Most club fleets have someone like this at some point. Just spread the word for no one to talk to him or sail with him. he will soon go somewhere else.

It sounds like the guy is not just clueless, but an obnoxious prick too. Beyond what Life Buoy suggests, if he shows up to race, have everyone else withdraw prior to the start. It requires a sacrifice on everyone's part but he should get the message.

 

We did something like this with a psycho who tried to force his way into our pick-up soccer game. Nobody passed to him, and if he got the ball, we all stopped playing. He was gone in a about 20 minutes.

 

Good luck and let us know how it goes.

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I'm keeping this sufficiently vague to not name names or play "guess which fleet",

 

We have a competitor in our local racing area for the last few years who is out of control.

 

These are 30-50 foot keelboats, often fairly casual racing. Our races are open to any competitor with a valid phrf cert, and we'd like to keep it that way if possible. We're not trying to be exclusive.

 

We have a growing fleet, and want to be open and encourage more racers, but one individual has been involved in multiple collisions, and has near-misses almost every week. Even after being found at fault by a protest committee he refuses to accept any responsibility, or even recognize his lack of understanding of the racing rules, or basic sailing for that matter. He has been responsible for 100% of our protests for the last few years, and has lost all of them.

 

He is always DFL, and burns through crew continuously.

 

There are a few owners of racer/cruisers who refuse to come out on the racecourse because of him, and those of us running our small club are worried it is only a matter of time until he injures someone.

 

What would you all do?

You must be talking about 80% of the wing nuts on Western LIS

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You have to be VERY careful here or you will be vulnerable to a lawsuit under the Ted Stevens Act. Please consult a lawyer who is familiar with the Ted Stevens Act because it is a minefield. I also strongly encourage you to involve a U.S. Sailing certified Judge. If this guy is litigious he can easily bankrupt your Club if you follow any of the advice in this thread. If you want to exclude him you will need to dot every i and dot every t to be on safe ground.

How can everyone ignoring him in the bar bring on a lawsuit? Can a judge order you to be nice to someone? This Ted Stevens chap must have been quite the pussy.

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Ignoring him at the bar is no problem, but refusing his entry or not scoring him invokes the act. Ted Stevens was an Olympic hero so the act is named after him. Because sailing is an Olympic sport and U.S. Sailing is the National authority, any race using the U.S. sailing rules is subject to the Act. One of its provisions deals with making certain nobody is excluded from competition in an Olympic sport except under certain circumstances. We don't have to like it, but then there lots of stupid laws that lead to stupid lawsuits. You are just as bankrupt from a stupid lawsuit as a good one so best to comply.

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Ignoring him at the bar is no problem, but refusing his entry or not scoring him invokes the act. Ted Stevens was an Olympic hero so the act is named after him. Because sailing is an Olympic sport and U.S. Sailing is the National authority, any race using the U.S. sailing rules is subject to the Act. One of its provisions deals with making certain nobody is excluded from competition in an Olympic sport except under certain circumstances. We don't have to like it, but then there lots of stupid laws that lead to stupid lawsuits. You are just as bankrupt from a stupid lawsuit as a good one so best to comply.

Fair enough too. People should not be excluded from Olympic sports just because they are cunts.

 

 

pistorius1.jpg

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I'd talk to the National Authority and get their advice. Getting a protest escalated beyond club level might be an option, but getting him on other boats to see how it should be done is probably most positive.

 

I do wonder about people though. Some of the dumbass posts in this thread, neither funny or useful. What is the point of posting that garbage?

 

 

Surely you have a few lawyers in your club or on the committee who can advise the legal issues, will depend on the club's constitution, etc.

Once you are on clear ground there, then go through the steps mentioned above: committee documents the problems; respected club member has a quiet word; then a corporate-style discipline/termination process.

Tedious but necessary these days.

Some good advice, some bad.

 

Childish suggestions involving assault and vandalism should be treated with the contempt which they deserve.

 

Talking to from respected people is a very good start.

 

Consistent, ongoing action such as competitors protesting every observed breach (followed by, if true analysis such as 'you have been protested for on-water rule breaches 20 times in the last six months and you have been penalised in 20 of those protests: this indicates that you are either unwilling or unable to comply with the rules') might also be useful.

 

Free legal advice is worth what you pay for it. A local lawyer will do one case on the law of unincorporated associations in his or her lifetime if he or she is unlucky. If you want legal advice get it from US Sailing.

With the benefit of some facts and judgement, rejection of entry in accordance with rule 76.1 may be effective.

 

Note that US Sailing Prescription to rule 76.1 says:

 

... an organising authority or race committee shall not reject or cancel the entry of a boat ... for an arbitrary or capricious reason or for reason of race, colour, religion, national origin, gender, sexual orientation or age.

So if the club's reason for rejecting the entry is clearly stated, backed up by your risk analysis, you should be on firm ground. US Sailing can advise you on application of the Ted Stevens Act.

 

A rule 2 protest will achieve very little. If the protest is upheld all that can happen is that the competitor can be disqualified from the one race in which it has been proved that rule 2 has been broken. Repeated rule 2 protests would look very like collusion or conspiracy.

 

I'm likewise sceptical that you can find an established principle, then clearly establish violation. No rule says that a boat is required to be sailed in a seamanlike way.

 

Rule 69 probably has more legs. I wouldn't have too much difficulty finding that frequently repeated, obvious breaches of Part 2 rules, with no breaches found on other competitors, and following warnings from the race committee or club came up to a gross breach of the rules and possibly a gross breach of good manners.

 

The limitations of a rule 69.2 hearing by a local protest committee is that it's powers in imposing a penalty are limited to:

excluding the competitor and, when appropriate, disqualifying a boat, from

  • a race or
  • the remaining races or all races of the series, or
  • by taking other action within its jurisdiction.

So a boat and competitor might be excluded from a season long series, but not from other series or future seasons, UNLESS the Club as Organising Authority appointing the protest committee specifically gave it additional powers to do so.

 

Of course, if the local protest committee did penalise the competitor, it would be required to report the penalty to US Sailing, who could impose further sanctions in accordance with rule 69.3.

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If you get enough sailors to agree to withdraw if he is allowed to race, he will soon get the message without opening yourselves up to a lawsuit from him.

 

If you have a well-documented history of his misconduct, reckless behavior, lack of basic knowledge, and damage to other's property, you might consider the lawsuit that could be slapped on your club by someone he ends up hurting or whose boat he seriously damages.

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Ignoring him at the bar is no problem, but refusing his entry or not scoring him invokes the act. Ted Stevens was an Olympic hero so the act is named after him. Because sailing is an Olympic sport and U.S. Sailing is the National authority, any race using the U.S. sailing rules is subject to the Act. One of its provisions deals with making certain nobody is excluded from competition in an Olympic sport except under certain circumstances. We don't have to like it, but then there lots of stupid laws that lead to stupid lawsuits. You are just as bankrupt from a stupid lawsuit as a good one so best to comply.

 

I didn't think merely using the US Sailing rules was enough to make an event one that would be covered by the Ted Stevens Act. Below is a section taken from http://unrulyracing.com/2010/10/ted-stevens-olympic-amateur-sports-act.html A Ted Stevens Act discussion by Matt Knowles, member at large US Sailing racing rules committee.

 

 

The USOC, under the authority (arguably) delegated it by the Act, establishes a number of protections for athletes. §9.1 of the USOC bylaws states that:

"No member of the corporation may deny or threaten to deny any amateur athlete the opportunity to participate in

    • the Olympic Games,
    • the Pan American Games,
    • the Paralympic Games,
    • a World Championship competition, or
    • other such protected competition as defined in Section 1.3 of these Bylaws..."
The last bullet is by far the most expansive. As noted above, the bylaws define a protected competition quite broadly; nearly all international competitions or events that qualify sailors for later international competition are included. Moreover, in the case of Salk v. US SAILING, an arbitrator interpreted §220522(4)( b ) of the Act to extend "protected competition" to purely domestic competitions run by US SAILING. I'm not sure I buy that reasoning; in any event, this extension has not been tested as subsequent cases involve international competition.

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He probably has a brain tumor or misdiagnosed diabetes etc. Giving him the shove out will potentially activate a significant physiological response resulting in a trip to the ER, and his problem will be found, fixed and after, he won't want to sail anymore. Win Win!

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plant some blow and/or a dead hooker in his fwd cabin and tip off the cops.

Or a live hooker and tip off his wife.

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Ted Stevens was an Olympic hero so the act is named after him.

Really? I always thought it was named for Ted Stevens, the Senator, who sponsored the revised version of the Amateur Sports Act, resulting in the revised version being dubbed the Ted Stevens Act. What Olympic sport was he in?

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Ted Stevens was an Olympic hero so the act is named after him.

Really? I always thought it was named for Ted Stevens, the Senator, who sponsored the revised version of the Amateur Sports Act, resulting in the revised version being dubbed the Ted Stevens Act. What Olympic sport was he in?

 

Invoke the Ted Kennedy Act - Make some nice young girl take a ride home with his son Bobby, who will inevitably drive off a bridge and let her drown in the car, all because she wouldn't blow him.

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Risk / reward analysis:

Reward would be to somehow help him successfully join the fold and be a good fellow competitor.

Risk would be dealing with our wonderful legal system.

 

Sky his halyards with a friendly anonymous note

Progressively increase the pranks and earnestness of the notes

Have some fun with it

Then call the dubinator...

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Doesn't sound to me like the Ted Stevens Act would apply to a local PHRF race. But wtf do I know? I still think his entry can be refused under the RRS.

I wouldn't expect any help from US Sailing, they won't touch a legal dispute with a 10 foot pole. A guy hit my Lightning one time doing over $1000 damage. He split after losing the protest, refused to respond to any letter or call. US Sailing and Lightning Class were less than useless. Only help I got was from the hosting YC, which provided me his contact info, and they later told me the guy would no longer be permitted to enter a regatta they hosted.

And I do know of an instance where a guy Totaled a factory charter boat at a Sunfish Worlds and didn't pay up. His entry for subsequent Worlds was refused until he paid for the boat he wrecked.

I think there's plenty of precedent to refuse this guys entry.

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Does the club in question have a 'actions unbecoming of a member' clause you can invoke? Ours does. Somehow my stupidity over the years has not crossed the line so maybe that won't help.

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plant some blow and/or a dead hooker in his fwd cabin and tip off the cops.

Or a live hooker and tip off his wife.

Definitely live....if dead he can then swear he thought he was poking the wife.

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Ted Stevens was an Olympic hero so the act is named after him.

Really? I always thought it was named for Ted Stevens, the Senator, who sponsored the revised version of the Amateur Sports Act, resulting in the revised version being dubbed the Ted Stevens Act. What Olympic sport was he in?

 

You are correct, and I am (partially) incorrect. "The late Ted Stevens, a Republican Alaska senator for 40 years, authored the federal legislation that — among other things — resulted in the creation of the U.S. Olympic Committee as the centralized body for U.S. Olympic sports and the many national governing bodies (NGBs), which operate the sports on Olympic and other levels. Stevens never did an Olympic gymnastics routine on the rings or ran a leg of the men’s 4x100 relay or jumped in the pool to swim the 200-meter freestyle, but the work he performed in the halls of Washington on behalf of amateur sports earned him high marks within the Olympic community.In fact, the Amateur Sports Act now carries his name on it."

 

In any event rule 69 and 73 disputes are subject to Stevens Act challenges so be very careful. So, for example, one idiot suggested just not scoring a boat but that would be a potential problem. Or simply rejecting his entry would also be a problem.

 

Dot your i's and cross your t's and you should be fine! It is way easier to use rule 76 than 69 in my opinion but do it wisely.

 

Cheers,

SF Woody Sailor

 

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Ignoring him at the bar is no problem, but refusing his entry or not scoring him invokes the act. Ted Stevens was an Olympic hero so the act is named after him. Because sailing is an Olympic sport and U.S. Sailing is the National authority, any race using the U.S. sailing rules is subject to the Act. One of its provisions deals with making certain nobody is excluded from competition in an Olympic sport except under certain circumstances. We don't have to like it, but then there lots of stupid laws that lead to stupid lawsuits. You are just as bankrupt from a stupid lawsuit as a good one so best to comply.

Fuck me, talk about pussified.

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Ignoring him at the bar is no problem, but refusing his entry or not scoring him invokes the act. Ted Stevens was an Olympic hero so the act is named after him. Because sailing is an Olympic sport and U.S. Sailing is the National authority, any race using the U.S. sailing rules is subject to the Act. One of its provisions deals with making certain nobody is excluded from competition in an Olympic sport except under certain circumstances. We don't have to like it, but then there lots of stupid laws that lead to stupid lawsuits. You are just as bankrupt from a stupid lawsuit as a good one so best to comply.

Fuck me, talk about pussified.

 

Fucking lawyers, what do you expect.

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Just get drunk and tell him he's a cunt and your club would be better off without him, fuck off you piece of shit.

 

But it was the rum talking your honour.

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Why get drunk..just hire me ...I'm really good doing that at 6.00am sober to a bunch of pricks who don't speak english and drink beer at little lunch.

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yeah the rule ''3 lost protests and you're out for the season'' is good, unless you have lots of protesting going on in the fleet..

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As difficult as it sounds like this bloke is, maybe the first step should just be to have a meeting with him and the committee to explain what he's doing wrong, why it's becoming a problem, what needs to happen next and what could happen if he doesn't sort himself out. He sounds like a huge dick but there's a chance he's just unaware that he's causing such a significant problem. Or maybe there are underlying circumstances that he'll make you guys aware of once he realises what's going on, maybe he's ill, or going through some difficult times, or just batshit mental; none are excuses, but getting to the bottom of it would make it easier to come up with a solution (that said, he may well just be a grade A 100% total dickhead).

 

If that doesn't work, I guess you're going to have to find a way to get him booted out.

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Institute a competency test

 

each skipper gets observed/tested on their knowledge of boat handling and sailing on their boat by a committee of a few good sailors from the club.

 

put in the NOR that all skippers must pass the competency test in order to compete

 

flunk him on the competency test.

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Ignoring him at the bar is no problem, but refusing his entry or not scoring him invokes the act. Ted Stevens was an Olympic hero so the act is named after him. Because sailing is an Olympic sport and U.S. Sailing is the National authority, any race using the U.S. sailing rules is subject to the Act. One of its provisions deals with making certain nobody is excluded from competition in an Olympic sport except under certain circumstances. We don't have to like it, but then there lots of stupid laws that lead to stupid lawsuits. You are just as bankrupt from a stupid lawsuit as a good one so best to comply.

Fair enough too. People should not be excluded from Olympic sports just because they are cunts.

 

 

pistorius1.jpg

 

They ought to cut off his other leg for what he did, now that would be justice

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Make him an offer he can't refuse...

 

I like your idea

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