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      Abbreviated rules   07/28/2017

      Underdawg did an excellent job of explaining the rules.  Here's the simplified version: Don't insinuate Pedo.  Warning and or timeout for a first offense.  PermaFlick for any subsequent offenses Don't out members.  See above for penalties.  Caveat:  if you have ever used your own real name or personal information here on the forums since, like, ever - it doesn't count and you are fair game. If you see spam posts, report it to the mods.  We do not hang out in every thread 24/7 If you see any of the above, report it to the mods by hitting the Report button in the offending post.   We do not take action for foul language, off-subject content, or abusive behavior unless it escalates to persistent stalking.  There may be times that we might warn someone or flick someone for something particularly egregious.  There is no standard, we will know it when we see it.  If you continually report things that do not fall into rules #1 or 2 above, you may very well get a timeout yourself for annoying the Mods with repeated whining.  Use your best judgement. Warnings, timeouts, suspensions and flicks are arbitrary and capricious.  Deal with it.  Welcome to anarchy.   If you are a newbie, there are unwritten rules to adhere to.  They will be explained to you soon enough.  
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frustratedRC

How to deal with a dangerously incompetent sailor?

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I like the idea of having sailor XYZ hopping on another boat. It might not change anything but you can say you tried.

 

Some people are too far gone though.

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Institute a competency test

 

each skipper gets observed/tested on their knowledge of boat handling and sailing on their boat by a committee of a few good sailors from the club.

 

put in the NOR that all skippers must pass the competency test in order to compete

 

flunk him on the competency test.

Have a care with these smartypants 'solutions'.

 

 

This could not appear like anything other than blatent victimisation.

 

To do fairly (and demonstrably fairly) it would impose massive overheads.

 

If the guy is as litigious as you say, it would be very provocative.

 

And it might disqualify a surprising number of competitors.

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yeah the rule ''3 lost protests and you're out for the season'' is good, unless you have lots of protesting going on in the fleet..

 

 

Reword it so withdrawing counts as losing, i.e. lose a protest or withdraw after contact.

As for why, we seem to have a subset of society that loves being the asshat because "my rights you can't make me stop".

If there is a collision then a protest is required. That should take care of that issue.

 

 

Nonsense, not since 1995.

 

No boat is obliged to protest. Ever.

 

 

For 2016.

New rule - anyone losing 2 protests with contact between boats is prohibited from racing for the rest of the season.

Applies to everyone, he can't say it was for him and sue.

YMMV and IANAL

If he has half a brain he withdraws from any race with a protest and contact. It isn't like it is going ruin his series score.

 

Whether or not a boat retires has no effect on whether a protest hearing goes ahead.

 

The protest committee, if the protest is valid, proceeds to find facts and record conclusions by applying the rules to the facts found to identify whether or not any rule has been broken (rule 64.1)

 

If a boat that has broken a rule has retired, the protest committee then records a decision that the boat has taken an applicable penalty and shall not be further penalised in accordance with rule 64.1( b ).

 

The written decision of the protest committee still records that the boat has broken specific rules.

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Try talking ,to him about it. If that fails.

Be the bully! Have good sailor in a beater boat, take him out a few times. (or lots, depending on his inability to learn) A luff at the start , minor bump, toss him out. Carry him past the mark a few times, some easy p/s downwind maneuvers. Etc. Easy stuff to do... Each time, he gets tossed out... He will eventually get pissed, and possibly learn the rules just out of protection. Or quit, as he will feel its unfair "being taken advantage of".

Yeah its a dick thing to do. But.... I'm not labeled the biggest douchebag for nothing. ;)

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Clearly sailing in the US is awesome, given the responses in this thread that range from beating the crap out of him to arranging for dead whores and drugs to be planted on his boat, I'm not sure that anyone would want to sail with you lot. RC grow some, tell him whats happening and that his entry will be refused. You don't need a reason.

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Clearly sailing in the US is awesome, given the responses in this thread that range from beating the crap out of him to arranging for dead whores and drugs to be planted on his boat, I'm not sure that anyone would want to sail with you lot. RC grow some, tell him whats happening and that his entry will be refused. You don't need a reason.

 

How about looking at the rules.

 

See rule 76.1 quoted in post 26

 

If a boat's entry is rejected the reasons must be stated.

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There are benefits to being exclusive..... Weigh them against the situation you feel you have now.

 

We're not trying to be exclusive.

 

 

 

What would you all do?

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Clearly sailing in the US is awesome, given the responses in this thread that range from beating the crap out of him to arranging for dead whores and drugs to be planted on his boat, I'm not sure that anyone would want to sail with you lot. RC grow some, tell him whats happening and that his entry will be refused. You don't need a reason.

 

How about looking at the rules.

 

See rule 76.1 quoted in post 26

 

If a boat's entry is rejected the reasons must be stated.

 

How about - "Your entry is rejected because you are a dangerous asshole"?

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Clearly sailing in the US is awesome, given the responses in this thread that range from beating the crap out of him to arranging for dead whores and drugs to be planted on his boat, I'm not sure that anyone would want to sail with you lot. RC grow some, tell him whats happening and that his entry will be refused. You don't need a reason.

 

The drugs/dead hookers were suggested by Australians.

 

I guess if they were from NZ, they would have suggested drugs and sheep.

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Clearly sailing in the US is awesome, given the responses in this thread that range from beating the crap out of him to arranging for dead whores and drugs to be planted on his boat, I'm not sure that anyone would want to sail with you lot. RC grow some, tell him whats happening and that his entry will be refused. You don't need a reason.

 

The drugs/dead hookers were suggested by Australians.

 

I guess if they were from NZ, they would have suggested drugs and sheep.

 

Clearly sailing in the US is awesome, given the responses in this thread that range from beating the crap out of him to arranging for dead whores and drugs to be planted on his boat, I'm not sure that anyone would want to sail with you lot. RC grow some, tell him whats happening and that his entry will be refused. You don't need a reason.

 

The drugs/dead hookers were suggested by Australians.

 

I guess if they were from NZ, they would have suggested drugs and sheep.

I suggested a live hooker not dead ones. I am protesting you...

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For 2016.

New rule - anyone losing 2 protests with contact between boats is prohibited from racing for the rest of the season.

Applies to everyone, he can't say it was for him and sue.

YMMV and IANAL

Rather than have it as a blanket rule like that, the offending boat must apply to reenter the series. Show how they are working to improve their skills. Show remorse for being an incompetent tool. Go on probation. Up to the organising committee to decide whether to allow them back. Blanket rules are hard, since you must enforce them in all cases, and another normal racer could get caught out with two minor touches with bad luck situations.

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^^^

especially since we are not talking about optis, lasers, or 420s, but large, B-class PHRF boats.

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Ignoring him at the bar is no problem, but refusing his entry or not scoring him invokes the act. Ted Stevens was an Olympic hero so the act is named after him. Because sailing is an Olympic sport and U.S. Sailing is the National authority, any race using the U.S. sailing rules is subject to the Act. One of its provisions deals with making certain nobody is excluded from competition in an Olympic sport except under certain circumstances. We don't have to like it, but then there lots of stupid laws that lead to stupid lawsuits. You are just as bankrupt from a stupid lawsuit as a good one so best to comply.

Fair enough too. People should not be excluded from Olympic sports just because they are cunts.

 

 

pistorius1.jpg

 

They ought to cut off his other leg for what he did, now that would be justice

 

 

Uummmmm, here is another view

389245_1.jpg

 

You are correct.

Cut off his arms then.

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Ignoring him at the bar is no problem, but refusing his entry or not scoring him invokes the act. Ted Stevens was an Olympic hero so the act is named after him. Because sailing is an Olympic sport and U.S. Sailing is the National authority, any race using the U.S. sailing rules is subject to the Act. One of its provisions deals with making certain nobody is excluded from competition in an Olympic sport except under certain circumstances. We don't have to like it, but then there lots of stupid laws that lead to stupid lawsuits. You are just as bankrupt from a stupid lawsuit as a good one so best to comply.

Fair enough too. People should not be excluded from Olympic sports just because they are cunts.

 

 

pistorius1.jpg

 

They ought to cut off his other leg for what he did, now that would be justice

 

 

Uummmmm, here is another view

389245_1.jpg

 

You are correct.

Cut off his arms then.

 

Cut off his head.

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Ignoring him at the bar is no problem, but refusing his entry or not scoring him invokes the act. Ted Stevens was an Olympic hero so the act is named after him. Because sailing is an Olympic sport and U.S. Sailing is the National authority, any race using the U.S. sailing rules is subject to the Act. One of its provisions deals with making certain nobody is excluded from competition in an Olympic sport except under certain circumstances. We don't have to like it, but then there lots of stupid laws that lead to stupid lawsuits. You are just as bankrupt from a stupid lawsuit as a good one so best to comply.

Fair enough too. People should not be excluded from Olympic sports just because they are cunts.

 

 

pistorius1.jpg

They ought to cut off his other leg for what he did, now that would be justice

 

 

 

Uummmmm, here is another view

389245_1.jpg

You are correct.

Cut off his arms then.

Cut off his head.

 

They took his blades away in jail to stop him legging it.

Best of all when he is in the shower block he is already on his knees.

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Just get drunk and tell him he's a cunt and your club would be better off without him, fuck off you piece of shit.

 

But it was the rum talking your honour.

i do that sober to my own YC members....

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I always find it amusing when people suggest that contact is somehow acceptable.

not acceptable, but sometimes it happens in traffic. Light air bottom mark rounding is a prime example, you may be in the wrong but be able to do fuck all about it. It is notba common scenario, but the originally suggested rule left no other options for reform.

My local soccer comp uses something similar to what I suggested, you get a certain number of red cards in a season and you have to show cause as to why you should be allowed to continue playing. Most get let back in on probation, but next red card they are gone for the season. Second season it happens they are banned for life from any soccer in the region, possibly nationally.

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Why have you let it go on for years? You have effectively enabled the serial offender to continue.

 

Every junior race we attend in AU has a disclaimer against poor sportsmanship. These races are run by Yachting Australia or one of the state yachting group.

 

I know in one instance that a member of our private yacht club was banned from a major annual big boat race for being an asshole.

 

If you charge a fee then you can refuse his entry for any reason.

 

The correct way to deal with a serial infringer is the 3 strike rule. When my juniors are blatantly cheating(hitting marks on purpose for advantage and taking no penalties) in practice or club races, I warn them twice and they are off the water at strike three.

 

I would think that if you had a three strike rule during one season, no one(judge, peer, God?) could argue whether its fair or not.

 

If he gets lawyer stupid, I would be surprised that one of the other 300 sailors is not a lawyer and would back you guys up free of charge.

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Is this a fairly unanimous sentiment throughout the fleet?

If so the solution is ridiculously simple but it requires a fair amount of solidarity throughout the whole fleet.

Firstly ammend the SI's to require a minimum number of starters for any race, say 3 or 5. depending on the size of your fleet. This will allow for a few "new" competitors or waverers.

Set a firm cut off time for pre race sign on and don't accept any sign ons after that time.

At the expiration of the cut off time the RO declares no race.

The ideal scenario would be if you use "on water" sign on via VHF/UHF.

Have your pre race briefing where the RO reminds everyone about the new sign on requirements. If you use written sign on at the briefing as soon as Capt Cunt signs on all those who have already signed on go up and withdraw citing said Cptn's presence as their reason for retiring.

If done via radio then once he signs on everyone else withdraws and states their reason for withdrawl.

RO then cancels race due to lack of starters.

No Lawyers, no hookers, no drugs, no need to resort to higher authority.

All that is required is enough will in the fleet.

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I'm keeping this sufficiently vague to not name names or play "guess which fleet",

 

We have a competitor in our local racing area for the last few years who is out of control.

 

These are 30-50 foot keelboats, often fairly casual racing. Our races are open to any competitor with a valid phrf cert, and we'd like to keep it that way if possible. We're not trying to be exclusive.

 

We have a growing fleet, and want to be open and encourage more racers, but one individual has been involved in multiple collisions, and has near-misses almost every week. Even after being found at fault by a protest committee he refuses to accept any responsibility, or even recognize his lack of understanding of the racing rules, or basic sailing for that matter. He has been responsible for 100% of our protests for the last few years, and has lost all of them.

 

He is always DFL, and burns through crew continuously.

 

There are a few owners of racer/cruisers who refuse to come out on the racecourse because of him, and those of us running our small club are worried it is only a matter of time until he injures someone.

 

What would you all do?

Give the guy a pink flag, a shitty camera, a throat full of gravel and cock and have him become a Gonzo journalist-

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No one has mentioned mediation yet.

If things do get all lawyer-y, the first stage of the process for many disputes (in Aus) is mediation, prior to legal action. Make this clear to him.

 

I would have a competitor's meeting with him, with a clear agenda, and record the minutes / actions clearly. If he fails to abide with the rules proposed/agreed or continues to be disagreeable, then proceed to the next step. Be clear to him what the process is, keep on the offensive. Many times this is enough of a deterrent.

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It doesn't sound to me as if friendly consultation and subtlety has a chance of getting through to this individual, at least not anymore. So, unless you want to keep victimizing yourself, you have to stand your ground and go with the 2x4 approach:

 

- As a committee member with influence on the way your club organizes racing, I would customize your rules as mentioned by others above: i.e. impose insurance requirements for past offenders, etc.. The pen is mightier than the sword, if you know how to wield it ... The leverage is all yours.

- And how friendly are you with your local law enforcement? Are his flares current, does he have enough PFD's on board? A check on the way back from the race course can't hurt... And make sure that compliance with coast guard rules is written up as part of your local racing rules.

- As a race organizer, I would consider elevating the standards of your competitive sailing: higher wind speed limits, longer races, more mark roundings, tougher navigation, marks closer to shallows, etc.. If your fellow is as clueless as described, he will stop having fun first. If incompetent captains can mess with others deep into a race your setup on the water does not differentiate very well. Let seamanship and ability separate the wheat from the chaff ....

- As a fellow competitor, study the racing rules with special attention towards who has to prove his right of way in what situation. When he puts himself in a disadvantaged situation, play hardball. Your bow can take it. Other than that, stay the hell away from him.

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If he gets lawyer stupid, I would be surprised that one of the other 300 sailors is not a lawyer and would back you guys up free of charge.

You are definitely not from the United States.

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I always find it amusing when people suggest that contact is somehow acceptable.

 

Ok give a reason to reject his entry, the rules don't say what that reason needs to be . But this ^^ is a reason. Contact is expensive- any contact that needs hauling to repair is very expensive and with bigger boats the costs just gets exponential. Loose cannons in the fleet are dangerous especially rich ones.

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He goes to the RC and says that the SI states you cannot fly a kite in the harbor (we were barely doing 1.9knts with no wind). The RC does not even tell him to file a protest or give me a warning, as it was the first time I did this. The RC comes to me and states that he is tossing us without any conversation. I ask why no warning, there was virtually no wind, no boats near me and the Harbor Patrol was right there and did not give a shit, The RC just states "I'm tossing you" and walks away.

Were you still racing? If the SIs state no spins in the harbor and you were then it's pretty simple...... although they should have not tossed you without a proper "protest" or you admitting you broke the rules and retired like a gentleman. I don't see how the RC can really flick you without a protest.

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Ignoring him at the bar is no problem, but refusing his entry or not scoring him invokes the act. Ted Stevens was an Olympic hero so the act is named after him. Because sailing is an Olympic sport and U.S. Sailing is the National authority, any race using the U.S. sailing rules is subject to the Act. One of its provisions deals with making certain nobody is excluded from competition in an Olympic sport except under certain circumstances. We don't have to like it, but then there lots of stupid laws that lead to stupid lawsuits. You are just as bankrupt from a stupid lawsuit as a good one so best to comply.

Fair enough too. People should not be excluded from Olympic sports just because they are cunts.

 

 

pistorius1.jpg

 

Bravo. Well played.

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See Avatar.....

One design fleets are not immune to the problem of dangerous incompetent sailors.

 

Though perhaps one design racers are rarely so adamant about shunning help to improve as this guy seems to be.

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Real Simple. Take a lesson from UBER, EBAY, AMAZON and all the other socially orientated sales sites. Answer this question. Would you take a ride from UBER or buy something from a person that has a low star rating on EBAY or Amazon? You wouldn't.

 

Take the same approach. On the finish scratch sheet add a column for collisions, protest filed with a WIN or LOSE indicator. Take the information that's public, and start using that to give him an internal knucklehead rating. Make it public and start using it internally shame him. That's step 1: Step 2: Start using it to control entries into races through the NOR. Your race committee could easily add a bullet like, "Racer could not have had 4 or more collisions in the last year" It's pretty simple. If the race committe or the Commodore has concerns for safety it's up to him to make the tough statements. Use safety as your guide take the emotion out of it.

 

Done! Things would change.

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Ignoring him at the bar is no problem, but refusing his entry or not scoring him invokes the act. Ted Stevens was an Olympic hero so the act is named after him. Because sailing is an Olympic sport and U.S. Sailing is the National authority, any race using the U.S. sailing rules is subject to the Act. One of its provisions deals with making certain nobody is excluded from competition in an Olympic sport except under certain circumstances. We don't have to like it, but then there lots of stupid laws that lead to stupid lawsuits. You are just as bankrupt from a stupid lawsuit as a good one so best to comply.

I would think that documented dangerous behaviour would back up refusing entry, esp under the USSailing prescription.

 

After rule 76.1 add

US Sailing prescribes that an organizing authority or race committee shall not reject or cancel the entry of a boat or exclude a competitor eligible under the notice of race and sailing instructions for an arbitrary or capricious reason or for reason of race, color, religion, national origin, gender, sexual orientation, or age.

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Make a rule anyone involved in 2 collisions in the past year has to fly a huge flag with a pink unicorn on it at all times :P

Make the ratings bands go like so:

100-120 is B

122 to 200 is C

His boat is 121. Sorry, no class for you!

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He goes to the RC and says that the SI states you cannot fly a kite in the harbor (we were barely doing 1.9knts with no wind). The RC does not even tell him to file a protest or give me a warning, as it was the first time I did this. The RC comes to me and states that he is tossing us without any conversation. I ask why no warning, there was virtually no wind, no boats near me and the Harbor Patrol was right there and did not give a shit, The RC just states "I'm tossing you" and walks away.

 

Were you still racing? If the SIs state no spins in the harbor and you were then it's pretty simple...... although they should have not tossed you without a proper "protest" or you admitting you broke the rules and retired like a gentleman. I don't see how the RC can really flick you without a protest.

They can't.

 

Requirement for a Hearing

A boat or competitor shall not be penalized without a protest hearing, except as provided in rules 30.2, 30.3, 69, A5 and P2. A decision on redress shall not be made without a hearing. The protest committee shall hear all protests and requests for redress that have been delivered to the race office unless it allows a protest or request to be withdrawn.

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Ignoring him at the bar is no problem, but refusing his entry or not scoring him invokes the act. Ted Stevens was an Olympic hero so the act is named after him. Because sailing is an Olympic sport and U.S. Sailing is the National authority, any race using the U.S. sailing rules is subject to the Act. One of its provisions deals with making certain nobody is excluded from competition in an Olympic sport except under certain circumstances. We don't have to like it, but then there lots of stupid laws that lead to stupid lawsuits. You are just as bankrupt from a stupid lawsuit as a good one so best to comply.

I would think that documented dangerous behaviour would back up refusing entry, esp under the USSailing prescription.

 

After rule 76.1 add

US Sailing prescribes that an organizing authority or race committee shall not reject or cancel the entry of a boat or exclude a competitor eligible under the notice of race and sailing instructions for an arbitrary or capricious reason or for reason of race, color, religion, national origin, gender, sexual orientation, or age.

 

 

Don't allow it to be arbitrary or capricious. If you start tracking your concerns publically, make it visible over time to the fleet. Have fleet meetings. Capture it in the notes. Highlight at the fleet level through a program of sorts that your concerned about safety. Make it part of your race committee dialogue. Highlight safety as your concern. Overtime he'll either get the point or you can ratchet it up within the NOR. Because your right it can't be sudden or arbitrary. You can't prevent a guy from participatging if you tell him on Monday that you don't like your mustach oil, and then thursday you kick him out. You need to show that your tracking and monitoring this from a fleet or race perspective. It can't be sudden and needs to be part of the fleet dialogue. This is NO different from requiring someone to have a level of experience to participate in Mini Transpac. This might take longer but it will give you the desired effect.

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They video cops all the time.......why has nobody videoed this guys collisions and incompetence? Post the videos please. Take videos and just sail away from this guy and protest and have the RC give everyone redress from sailing away from the fellow and get on with life. Try laughing at the guy at the bar and in the protest room.....lots of loud laughing and finger pointing. Nothing pisses off such a weirdo as laughter especially if he doesn't get it. Instead of whinging and wringing your hands, look upon this as entertainment. Treat it as entertainment. Even GOPs can recognize entertainment......Trump's a bunch of laughs. Have fun .... racing is a game (according to the SCC today) so enjoy.......its not real life.

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You have plenty of ammunition, you just need a Protest Committee of Non-Involved Sailors who have the balls to do what is right. Rule 69 - Allegations of Gross Misconduct

 

69.1. Action by a Protest Committee

(a) When a protest committee, from its own observation or a report received from any source, believes that a competitor may have committed a gross breach of a rule, good manners or sportsmanship, or may have brought the sport into disrepute, it may

call a hearing. The protest committee shall promptly inform the competitor in writing of the alleged misconduct and of the time and place of the hearing. If the competitor provides good reason for being unable to attend the hearing, the protest committee shall reschedule it.

 

(B) A protest committee of at least three members shall conduct the hearing, following the procedures in rules 63.2, 63.3(a), 63.4 and 63.6. If it decides that the competitor committed the alleged misconduct it shall either

(1) warn the competitor or

(2) impose a penalty by excluding the competitor and, when appropriate, disqualifying a boat, from a race or the remaining races or all races of the series, or by taking other action within its jurisdiction. A disqualification under this rule shall not be excluded from the boat’s series score.

 

© The protest committee shall promptly report a penalty, but not a warning, to the national authorities of the venue, of the com- petitor and of the boat owner. If the protest committee is an international jury appointed by the ISAF under rule 89.2(B), it

shall send a copy of the report to the ISAF.

 

(d) If the competitor does not provide good reason for being unable to attend the hearing and does not come to it, the protest committee may conduct it without the competitor present. If the committee does so and penalizes the competitor, it shall

include in the report it makes under rule 69.1© the facts found, the decision and the reasons for it.

 

(e) If the protest committee chooses not to conduct the hearing without the competitor present or if the hearing cannot be scheduled for a time and place when it would be reasonable for the competitor to attend, the protest committee shall collect all available information and, if the allegation seems justified, make a report to the relevant national authorities. If the protest committee is an international jury appointed by the ISAF under rule 89.2(B), it shall send a copy of the report to the ISAF.

 

(f) When the protest committee has left the event and a report alleging misconduct is received, the race committee or organizing authority may appoint a new protest committee to proceed under this rule.

 

69.2. Action by a National Authority or Initial Action by the ISAF

(a) When a national authority or the ISAF receives a report alleging a gross breach of a rule, good manners or sportsmanship, a report alleging conduct that has brought the sport into disrepute, or a report required by rule 69.1© or 69.1(e), it may conduct an investigation and, when appropriate, shall conduct a hearing. It may then take any disciplinary action within its jurisdiction it considers appropriate against the competitor or

boat, or other person involved, including suspending eligibility, permanently or for a specified period of time, to compete in any event held within its jurisdiction, and suspending ISAF eligibility under ISAF Regulation 19.

 

(B) The national authority of a competitor shall also suspend the ISAF eligibility of the competitor as required in ISAF Regulation 19.

 

© The national authority shall promptly report a suspension of eligibility under rule 69.2(a) to the ISAF, and to the national authorities of the person or the owner of the boat suspended if they are not members of the suspending national authority.

 

69.3. Subsequent Action by the ISAF

Upon receipt of a report required by rule 69.2© or ISAF Regulation 19, or following its own action under rule 69.2(a), the ISAF shall inform all national authorities, which may also suspend eligibility for events held within their jurisdiction. The ISAF Executive Committee shall suspend the competitor’s ISAF eligibility as required in ISAF

Regulation 19 if the competitor’s national authority does not do so.

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If these are club events why not go beyond the NOR and racing rules. Change the club bylaws, rules and regulations (or whatever your club calls them) and add a provision that any club member can be banned from any club activity if ............ You fill in the dots with misbehavior that will not be tolerated.

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BTW, I just cut and pasted above, have no idea where the emogees came from

 

The emojis happen when you type in (or paste) a b in brackets. ( B)

You can fix it by leaving a space between the b and the closing bracket. (b )

 

Same with c. © fix is (c ).

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As difficult as it sounds like this bloke is, maybe the first step should just be to have a meeting with him and the committee to explain what he's doing wrong, why it's becoming a problem, what needs to happen next and what could happen if he doesn't sort himself out. He sounds like a huge dick but there's a chance he's just unaware that he's causing such a significant problem. Or maybe there are underlying circumstances that he'll make you guys aware of once he realises what's going on, maybe he's ill, or going through some difficult times, or just batshit mental; none are excuses, but getting to the bottom of it would make it easier to come up with a solution (that said, he may well just be a grade A 100% total dickhead).

 

If that doesn't work, I guess you're going to have to find a way to get him booted out.

 

Damn your logic, Spock!

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I was involved in a protest, made insurance news, got crew injured from other boats actions, got sued by my own crew (the suit was forwarded from the other boats skipper).

 

US sailing WILL get involved (the other guy appealed it all the way up the line, the listened to it, even a year late.

 

If you are NOT involved in Olympic trials funding etc..then it is a PRIVATE Club racing event, and the RC can refuse ANYONE. IF the RC can refuse an entry for not filling it out all the way, they sure as heck can refuse an entry for any reason...

 

btw the other guy's entry was refused the next year.

 

PS: Since I am a good guy (sorta) I would have a word with him prior to refusing the entry..like..here is what you have done here is the outcome of the protests...do it again and you will not be allowed to race with us.

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The options are short:

1. Someone of respect needs to have a quiet sit down with him.

2. If he is causing enough collisions and being found guilty and paying for the damage, eventually no insurance company will insure him.

3. Excluding a boat is incredibly difficult. The best one is a RRS 69, because if it is successful the process includes the backing of US Sailing. But can collisions simply be called "unsportsmanlike conduct?" One would need proof of intent, which anyone with any sense would not admit to.

 

I'll bet it will be #2 that gets him to go away.

 

Glenn's probably got it

 

Next time there's damage make sure that there is not only a protest hearing, but also an insurance claim and a police report.

Yes, marine police do fender benders, and in some jurisdictions they even ask for a written version of the protest findings.

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True, but this guy is not one of those guys.

 

EDIT - to expand on my (joking) class split idea: Make a rating band only he is in and send his "class" on a different course way out of the way. Example, every class but the a55 class is going from Annapolis to Bermuda, your finish line is Reykjavík via the C&D Canal. If you don't see an RC boat, take your own time.

Sailors toward the front of the fleet can be, and somettimes are, just as dangerous and unsportsmanlike.

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Make a rule anyone involved in 2 collisions in the past year has to fly a huge flag with a pink unicorn on it at all times :P

Make the ratings bands go like so:

100-120 is B

122 to 200 is C

His boat is 121. Sorry, no class for you!

Hey,

 

My battle flag is a pink unicorn!

 

And I haven't been in a single collision in the 5 years of the Sparkle Pony program.

 

I think we can come up with a better badge of shame than that.

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Make a rule anyone involved in 2 collisions in the past year has to fly a huge flag with a pink unicorn on it at all times :P

Make the ratings bands go like so:

100-120 is B

122 to 200 is C

His boat is 121. Sorry, no class for you!

Hey,

 

My battle flag is a pink unicorn!

 

And I haven't been in a single collision in the 5 years of the Sparkle Pony program.

 

I think we can come up with a better badge of shame than that.

 

HAH I was thinking the same thing!

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So Darryn - your fleet didn't believe in the rules of sailing or you were just too much of a marshmellow to protest ?

 

I know nobody LIKES to protest, but somebody makes contact with me and I have the rights, they are getting the flag - which sure beats getting your boat trashed or quitting the sport due to somebody else's bad sailing.

 

This ENTIRE discussion is a PERFECT EXAMPLE why the sport we live NEEDS to be a self-policing sport -and if you don't man the fuck up and follow the rules when somebody is being a twat then you get to live with the result - an emboldened hack who thinks that he can get away with bad sailing. You NEED to bust them on it every damn time until they learn or tire of being found at fault.

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So Darryn - your fleet didn't believe in the rules of sailing or you were just too much of a marshmellow to protest ?

 

I know nobody LIKES to protest, but somebody makes contact with me and I have the rights, they are getting the flag - which sure beats getting your boat trashed or quitting the sport due to somebody else's bad sailing.

 

This ENTIRE discussion is a PERFECT EXAMPLE why the sport we live NEEDS to be a self-policing sport -and if you don't man the fuck up and follow the rules when somebody is being a twat then you get to live with the result - an emboldened hack who thinks that he can get away with bad sailing. You NEED to bust them on it every damn time until they learn or tire of being found at fault.

 

Not really. This entire thread is about someone who gets busted all the time and is neither learning nor tiring of it.

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Well - you SAY that, but...

 

The OP really doesn't get down to the 'Brass tacks' of the matter - does the clown in question get prosecuted to the full, official extent of the rules of our sport ??

 

If they DO get busted for it - as in Protested (flagged properly) and notified of the hearing and LOSE in the hearing, repeatedly and STILL doesn't reform THEN you have a leg to stand on when you say " Buddy has been in the room 27 times and we are sick of him " - but if everyone is just being a pushover - (like Darryn, above) and not taking him to The Room then you can't complain that the mechanisms of the sport are letting you down - because you aren't USING the tools provided.

 

Sure - it'd be nice to swing aboard on an extra halyard with a cutlass in your teeth and lay waste to the afterguard, but times have changed and bloodletting is frowned upon.

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Make a rule anyone involved in 2 collisions in the past year has to fly a huge flag with a pink unicorn on it at all times :P

Make the ratings bands go like so:

100-120 is B

122 to 200 is C

His boat is 121. Sorry, no class for you!

Hey,

 

My battle flag is a pink unicorn!

 

And I haven't been in a single collision in the 5 years of the Sparkle Pony program.

 

I think we can come up with a better badge of shame than that.

My boat's mascot is a pink/rainbow unicorn! High five, brother!

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So 5 years ago we move over to the east end of this here state and discover there's one local who sued over a guy he hit, while racing, who was on starboard, and the plaintif was on port.

 

No more racing on CdA as a result is the local lore. I'd say urban legend, but.......

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Please make it a point to note that Shooting Star is not your boat blondie!

Why is it that Patrick M looks like he's fronting a wave band?

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Please make it a point to note that Shooting Star is not your boat blondie!

Why is it that Patrick M looks like he's fronting a wave band?

 

 

I always thought he was the most depressed, repressed and abused guy on TV. He probably hated his last name.

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BTW, I just cut and pasted above, have no idea where the emogees came from

 

The emojis happen when you type in (or paste) a b in brackets. ( B)

You can fix it by leaving a space between the b and the closing bracket. (b )

 

Same with c. © fix is (c ).

 

 

Click "more reply options". Panel on the right opens. Uncheck the "Enable emoticons".

 

And, "e-moji" are not the same as "emot-icons"; "moji" means "character" and "e" means picture (Japanese), so they are anything from a picture of a coffe cup to a smiling piece of turd. Emoticons are just the subset of faces expressing emotions in an iconic way. The set supported here is limited to the latter... :ph34r:

 

Perhaps there should be full support for emoji? We might be missing out on the proper colorful rendition of stuff like

0e1385466f2aacfdfc3d85de0acd0dc4.png 150a8015761d76ef3c3978404bc1f47d.png f44d0328d2bf44cc3122557547c0ce5e.png 49785bf5952aacf27f7f956a1152be15.png

 

1b31ef0e31a0d36bbe19cf20f6207ef5.png

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Might be extreme but include in the next series NoR that a damage deposit must be paid before boats are allowed to race (and topped up if reduced by resultant damage).

 

If he does cause damage and loses the protest then have the damaged boat repaired at his expense (by a boatyard) and then he doesn't race again until he tops up the fund.

 

Hit him in the pocket - that's where it hurts that sort most.

 

Payment of a damaged deposit is unusual in fleets where the boats are privately owned but standard practice in regattas with supplied boats. We have many regattas here in China where boats are borrowed or chartered - it doesn't stop all the idiots but a couple of good bangs and people suddenly get a lot more careful.

 

It doesn't help if he is just being a pain in the ass but such a line in the NoR might just make him think again.

 

Just my thoughts

 

See ya on the water

 

SS

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You guys are such a bunch of PC pussies.

 

Beat the shit out of the guy in the parking lot, drill holes in his hull, light his boat on fire, Molotov Cocktail his house, fuck his wife, steal his dog.

 

Tell him to just go the fuck away, if you're not in to physical measures

 

Found a "Dickhead Trophy" and let him win it every time.

Write "Beware of Incompetent Skipper!" on his topsides with ductape.

Write "Gay Sailors League International" on his spinnaker with spray paint.

Pull all his running rigging out and leave it in a creative macamée on his fordeck.

Attach a blow-up sex doll to his stern.

Fill his engine exhaust with Sikaflex.

Chain his boat to the dock underwater.

Attach his propeller backways.

Get a few boats to cover him all the time, everywhere.

Glue his companionway shut with epoxy.

Glue his head shut with epoxy.

Pee in his freshwater tank.

Put the video of you peeing in his freshatwer tank on youtube.

Introduce your bowman to his daughter.

 

 

I agree with everything else, but the last one is just pure meanness!

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Fuck it. This is America; just shoot the guy and be done with it.

 

(said tongue in cheek)

 

(but maybe not really)

 

(actually don't use this advice)

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The protest committee, if the protest is valid, proceeds to find facts and record conclusions by applying the rules to the facts found to identify whether or not any rule has been broken (rule 64.1)

 

If a boat that has broken a rule has retired, the protest committee then records a decision that the boat has taken an applicable penalty and shall not be further penalised in accordance with rule 64.1( b ).

 

The written decision of the protest committee still records that the boat has broken specific rules.

 

 

I wondered about that as it applies to the 2 strikes your out suggestion above. It seems banning him for the rest of the season would certainly "further penalize" him.

 

I still think a Rule 2, 69 or 76 hearing would be worthwhile. If nothing else, it might be the wakeup call the asshat needs to fly straight. As long as the hearing was followed to the letter of the law and past incidents were well documented, I would think it would be very hard to sue the club over.

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So Darryn - your fleet didn't believe in the rules of sailing or you were just too much of a marshmellow to protest ?

 

I know nobody LIKES to protest, but somebody makes contact with me and I have the rights, they are getting the flag - which sure beats getting your boat trashed or quitting the sport due to somebody else's bad sailing.

 

This ENTIRE discussion is a PERFECT EXAMPLE why the sport we live NEEDS to be a self-policing sport -and if you don't man the fuck up and follow the rules when somebody is being a twat then you get to live with the result - an emboldened hack who thinks that he can get away with bad sailing. You NEED to bust them on it every damn time until they learn or tire of being found at fault.

 

This^^ this^^ and this^^

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The protest committee, if the protest is valid, proceeds to find facts and record conclusions by applying the rules to the facts found to identify whether or not any rule has been broken (rule 64.1)

 

If a boat that has broken a rule has retired, the protest committee then records a decision that the boat has taken an applicable penalty and shall not be further penalised in accordance with rule 64.1( b ).

 

The written decision of the protest committee still records that the boat has broken specific rules.

 

 

I wondered about that as it applies to the 2 strikes your out suggestion above. It seems banning him for the rest of the season would certainly "further penalize" him.

 

I still think a Rule 2, 69 or 76 hearing would be worthwhile. If nothing else, it might be the wakeup call the asshat needs to fly straight. As long as the hearing was followed to the letter of the law and past incidents were well documented, I would think it would be very hard to sue the club over.

 

The complete quotation from rule 64.1( b ) is

If a boat has taken an applicable penalty*, she shall not be further penalised under this rule unless the penalty for a rule she broke is a disqualification that is not excludable from her series score.

If there was another rule about frequent rule breaches in the SI, penalisation under that rule would not be prohibited by rule 64.1( b ).

 

I'm not keen on some kind if double secret probation local rule.

 

If a club introduced such a rule after discussion and counselling with the offending competitor (which IMHO they would be crazy (and unfair and unpleasant) not to try first), then it would be well arguable that the 'rule' was specifically targeted at the competitor, and if the competitor did sue, I reckon there would be 50/50 chance he would find a sympthetic judge.

 

I don't think rule 2 has legs at all. There is no rule that requires that a boat be sailed in a seamanlike way. It's not unsportsmanlike to be incompetent, or at least, I don't think it could be proved in a protest hearing that it is a recognised principle of sportsmanship or fair play that a competitor must be competent. And as I said before, even if successful, rule 2 can only result in disqualification from one race.

 

Rule 69 has a better chance. I would find it much more comfortable to hold that repeated breaches of a rule (say rule 10 or rule 11) amounted to a gross breach of the rules.

 

I don't see how rule 76 gives rise to a hearing at all, unless the RC/OA rejected an entry and the competitor requested redress.

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Since one of main problems is getting sued lets turn the argument around for a moment.

 

How can the club protect itself against getting sued for not removing an actively incompetent skipper? Say injuries happen and insurance companies come into play.

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This X 1000!

I am sure if I made a habit of wrecking every car that came near me, pretty much any series but NASCAR would not allow me on the track for long. We can't have tied ourselves in legal knots to the point someone can be outright dangerous and destructive but we can do nothing about it. The lawsuit you get from me when this dick hits me and causes money damage and maybe damage to my crew is going to cost you a metric shitload more cash than the one you get from Capt. Crash for not being fair.

 

 

Since one of main problems is getting sued lets turn the argument around for a moment.

 

How can the club protect itself against getting sued for not removing an actively incompetent skipper? Say injuries happen and insurance companies come into play.

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Since one of main problems is getting sued lets turn the argument around for a moment.

 

How can the club protect itself against getting sued for not removing an actively incompetent skipper? Say injuries happen and insurance companies come into play.

 

Rule 4

 

US Sailing Indemnification

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So Darryn - your fleet didn't believe in the rules of sailing or you were just too much of a marshmellow to protest ?

 

I know nobody LIKES to protest, but somebody makes contact with me and I have the rights, they are getting the flag - which sure beats getting your boat trashed or quitting the sport due to somebody else's bad sailing.

 

This ENTIRE discussion is a PERFECT EXAMPLE why the sport we live NEEDS to be a self-policing sport -and if you don't man the fuck up and follow the rules when somebody is being a twat then you get to live with the result - an emboldened hack who thinks that he can get away with bad sailing. You NEED to bust them on it every damn time until they learn or tire of being found at fault.

 

This^^ this^^ and this^^

 

 

DING DING DING DING

 

This is one of the reasons why sailing is declining. Nobody wants to take responsibility. And in the long run (for that matter, in 90%+ of the short run) it's all up to us.

 

There was an incident in the most recent winter series race here, in the cruising class. Not one but two big heavy cruising boats simply reached down to the RC boat for their start, ignoring the whole chain of boats to leeward and making absolutely no attempt to keep clear. I am not in that class (fortunately) but saw the incident from beginning to end. We couldn't believe there was not a protest, but one of the leeward skippers was told that his protest would be dismissed for not flying his flag soon enough. I spoke with 1- the head of the impending protest committee, pointing out that his impending decision meant that the two winners of the race got away with cheating, in particular with breaking R-O-W rules in a manner that increased the likelihood of damaging collisions in the future and 2- with the skippers of both boats, telling them what I saw (the entire incident) and there was no doubt they broke several rules and deserved a DSQ. Waste of breath in all cases, results=zero (until next time).

 

The ironic thing is that the skipper of one of the offending boats was rammed last year, with severe damage and narrowly-averted injury, by a give-way boat.

 

So, what can we do? Banning the dick heads or giving up racing seems like the two best alternatives.

 

FB- Doug

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