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winchfodder

Why is ISAF not cancelling any sanction or participation in Malaysia

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Spain still occupies Moroccan land. Don't let their sailors compete.

Britain still occupies Spanish land. Don't let their sailors compete.

America still occupies a whole shitload of land. Don't let their sailors compete.

Russia executes journalists and invaded, then annexed, an entire peninsula. Don't let their sailors compete.

Ukraine did some sketchy shit to journalist and opposition politicians. Human rights violations? Don't let their sailors compete.

Britain fucked up half the world. Don't let their sailors compete.

America fucked up the other half. Don't let their sailors compete.

France fucked up North Africa. Don't let their sailors compete.

60 countries are part of a campaign that's bombing civilians in Iraq. Don't let their sailors compete.

Turkey...Holland...Sweden...Italy...Angola...Nigeria...Japan...China...Thailand...

 

 

If you are a creature of logic, it's pretty fucking obvious why you can't allow politics into international sport.

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I agree with Clean on this one.

 

Not only is it a bad idea to introduce politics into sports, especially the back door way Malaysia did it, very few countries would try to impose those type of restrictions on any other country than Israel. This is despite the fact that there are many countries with much worse human rights issues looming over them.

 

 

Edit: I think Russia has to get credit for fucking up part of the world. Can't blame it all 50-50 on the US and Britian.

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Spain still occupies Moroccan land. Don't let their sailors compete.

Britain still occupies Spanish land. Don't let their sailors compete.

America still occupies a whole shitload of land. Don't let their sailors compete.

Russia executes journalists and invaded, then annexed, an entire peninsula. Don't let their sailors compete.

Ukraine did some sketchy shit to journalist and opposition politicians. Human rights violations? Don't let their sailors compete.

Britain fucked up half the world. Don't let their sailors compete.

America fucked up the other half. Don't let their sailors compete.

France fucked up North Africa. Don't let their sailors compete.

60 countries are part of a campaign that's bombing civilians in Iraq. Don't let their sailors compete.

Turkey...Holland...Sweden...Italy...Angola...Nigeria...Japan...China...Thailand...

 

 

If you are a creature of logic, it's pretty fucking obvious why you can't allow politics into international sport.

 

Gee i think i said this in post #357....

 

Ok so if Israel has a "problem" then based on that...

 

 

What about these examples..

 

White Aussies v Aboriginal people

 

French v most countries

 

NZ v Maori

 

Britsh v most countries

 

Spanish v many countries

 

Ruusia v many countries...

 

Crikey! Even Yanks v yanks kill more people in their own country over the last 50 years than most "ethnic/religious wars.

 

FUCK!... if we are being ethnically, politically, morally, religiously correct we should BAN EVERY COUNTRY!...

 

sailing is a boat with water and wind. Its freedom without rules and its fun.... until people get involved!

 

Now i understand solo around the world sailors!(amateur)

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Newbie, aside from the lack of mammaries attached to your post, what are these state policies to which you refer to as a major issue?

Issues? Large fences separating farmers from their land. Major travel restrictions for people working or attempting to work. Refusal to go back to pre war boarders. Settlements in areas which were declared to be free of settlements. You know those little things.

 

As for the newb comment you'll need to get your neophyte ass back to the archive of the archive to find my original account under the same name. It goes back to the Bull Gator days which I think predates you.

None of which has anything to do with a few teenage sailors.

 

And I never said it did. Those are reasons for sanctions. Whether the ISAF supports the sanctions against Israel implicitly by their holding an event in country that prohibits the issuance of visas to citizens of Israel is the issue I believe.

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Spain still occupies Moroccan land. Don't let their sailors compete.

Britain still occupies Spanish land. Don't let their sailors compete.

America still occupies a whole shitload of land. Don't let their sailors compete.

Russia executes journalists and invaded, then annexed, an entire peninsula. Don't let their sailors compete.

Ukraine did some sketchy shit to journalist and opposition politicians. Human rights violations? Don't let their sailors compete.

Britain fucked up half the world. Don't let their sailors compete.

America fucked up the other half. Don't let their sailors compete.

France fucked up North Africa. Don't let their sailors compete.

60 countries are part of a campaign that's bombing civilians in Iraq. Don't let their sailors compete.

Turkey...Holland...Sweden...Italy...Angola...Nigeria...Japan...China...Thailand...

 

 

If you are a creature of logic, it's pretty fucking obvious why you can't allow politics into international sport.

Where does America 'occupy'? Other than good holiday locations?

 

'Occupy' in geo-political terms means an uninvited visitor overstaying their welcome and controlling the local government.

Not like 'Occupy Wallstreet' which means sitting on the sidewalk, ordering Chinese take out, and beating a drum 24 hours a day

waving a pink flag and claiming international journalism rights.

 

Where is this whole shitload of land you speak of?

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Spain still occupies Moroccan land. Don't let their sailors compete.

Britain still occupies Spanish land. Don't let their sailors compete.

America still occupies a whole shitload of land. Don't let their sailors compete.

Russia executes journalists and invaded, then annexed, an entire peninsula. Don't let their sailors compete.

Ukraine did some sketchy shit to journalist and opposition politicians. Human rights violations? Don't let their sailors compete.

Britain fucked up half three fourths of the world. Don't let their sailors compete.

America fucked up the other half. Don't let their sailors compete.

France fucked up North Africa. Don't let their sailors compete.

60 countries are part of a campaign that's bombing civilians in Iraq. Don't let their sailors compete.

Turkey...Holland...Sweden...Italy...Angola...Nigeria...Japan...China...Thailand...

 

 

If you are a creature of logic, it's pretty fucking obvious why you can't allow politics into international sport.

I essentially agree with one minor correction. The damage to large parts of the world the British did in the name of their empire will not be repaired for a long time to come.

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Thanks to Malaysia, Israeli sailors have to compete without a flag.

 

Thanks to Israel, Palestinian sailors cannot compete for lack of a country.

Not true! Palestine competed at the Oympics in 2012 with a team and can enter ISAF events. Their sixth Olympic team presence but no medals yet.

 

What is the basis of your claim?

 

And for all you Malaysia apologists out there like dorydude, during the broadcast of the London 2012 opening ceremonies on the Qatar-based Al Jazeera television network went silent when the Israeli delegation entered the stadium after the two presenters were heard to say "they do not deserve it."

 

 

Winchfodder, you are right. Palestinian do have a flag and can compete in the Olympics, even though because of Israel's 50 years occupation of their territory, they don't have a country.

 

What Malaysia does sucks from a sporting point of view and should not be allowed.

 

But, if the US boycotted the Russian Olympics because they invaded Afghanistan, don't you think ISAF, after spanking Malaysia, should remind Israel that invading and occupying a country for 50 years should have some consequences?

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Several National Authorities including US Sailing, the German national sailing authority, the Dutch national sailing authority and the New Zealand national sailing authority have all made public statements that rejected the actions by Malaysia and forcefully urged World Sailing (ISAF) to take action.

 

MIchael Hennessy

Michael,

So far I've only seen public statements by US and Denmark. Do you have links to others? I could't find anything on

http://www.dsv.org

http://www.watersportverbond.nl

http://www.yachtingnz.org.nz

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Several National Authorities including US Sailing, the German national sailing authority, the Dutch national sailing authority and the New Zealand national sailing authority have all made public statements that rejected the actions by Malaysia and forcefully urged World Sailing (ISAF) to take action.

 

 

MIchael Hennessy

Michael,

So far I've only seen public statements by US and Denmark. Do you have links to others? I could't find anything on

http://www.dsv.org

http://www.watersportverbond.nl

http://www.yachtingnz.org.nz

I saw them yesterday, but will need to look tonight.

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Spain still occupies Moroccan land. Don't let their sailors compete.

Britain still occupies Spanish land. Don't let their sailors compete.

America still occupies a whole shitload of land. Don't let their sailors compete.

Russia executes journalists and invaded, then annexed, an entire peninsula. Don't let their sailors compete.

Ukraine did some sketchy shit to journalist and opposition politicians. Human rights violations? Don't let their sailors compete.

Britain fucked up half the world. Don't let their sailors compete.

America fucked up the other half. Don't let their sailors compete.

France fucked up North Africa. Don't let their sailors compete.

60 countries are part of a campaign that's bombing civilians in Iraq. Don't let their sailors compete.

Turkey...Holland...Sweden...Italy...Angola...Nigeria...Japan...China...Thailand...

 

 

If you are a creature of logic, it's pretty fucking obvious why you can't allow politics into international sport.

Where does America 'occupy'? Other than good holiday locations?

 

'Occupy' in geo-political terms means an uninvited visitor overstaying their welcome and controlling the local government.

Not like 'Occupy Wallstreet' which means sitting on the sidewalk, ordering Chinese take out, and beating a drum 24 hours a day

waving a pink flag and claiming international journalism rights.

 

Where is this whole shitload of land you speak of?

 

Ask your friendly neighborhood Hawaiian sovereignty activist about illegal occupation and annexation. There's probably a few Native Americans on the mainland that would share their viewpoint.

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Spain still occupies Moroccan land. Don't let their sailors compete.

Britain still occupies Spanish land. Don't let their sailors compete.

America still occupies a whole shitload of land. Don't let their sailors compete.

Russia executes journalists and invaded, then annexed, an entire peninsula. Don't let their sailors compete.

Ukraine did some sketchy shit to journalist and opposition politicians. Human rights violations? Don't let their sailors compete.

Britain fucked up half the world. Don't let their sailors compete.

America fucked up the other half. Don't let their sailors compete.

France fucked up North Africa. Don't let their sailors compete.

60 countries are part of a campaign that's bombing civilians in Iraq. Don't let their sailors compete.

Turkey...Holland...Sweden...Italy...Angola...Nigeria...Japan...China...Thailand...

 

 

If you are a creature of logic, it's pretty fucking obvious why you can't allow politics into international sport.

Where does America 'occupy'? Other than good holiday locations?

 

'Occupy' in geo-political terms means an uninvited visitor overstaying their welcome and controlling the local government.

Not like 'Occupy Wallstreet' which means sitting on the sidewalk, ordering Chinese take out, and beating a drum 24 hours a day

waving a pink flag and claiming international journalism rights.

 

Where is this whole shitload of land you speak of?

 

Ask your friendly neighborhood Hawaiian sovereignty activist about illegal occupation and annexation. There's probably a few Native Americans on the mainland that would share their viewpoint.

 

 

Edith is perhaps not much of a student of history and geopolitics.

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Clean, I agree that politics are best left out of sports. Out of everything, really, because Politicians, and wannabe Politicians, basically suck balls.

 

The problem is much easier to deal with than dealing with the pervasive wrongs that have been promulgated upon the weak by the strong since the beginning of this weird species of which we are members.

 

We only need to focus on just what it takes to run an international sporting event, not on solving all the world's problems. All that is needed is to let the athletes compete on a level playing field.

 

This is not difficult. Its not delicate. Its not complicated.

 

If some organization, any organization, refuses to just let the athletes compete fairly, then that organization proves to the world that they are incompetent when it comes to holding world championship events. Simple. Its not a World's Championship if the organizers prevent athletes from certain places of the world to compete fairly.

 

If they want to have "Youth Championship for Everyone But Those Fucking Little Jews" and they put that on the invitations, race venue, press releases, and awards, then OK. Then they are being honest. Asshats, but honest asshats.

 

But ISAF ensured there is in fact no 2015 World Youth Championship, no matter what they call the regatta in Malaysia.

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Spain still occupies Moroccan land. Don't let their sailors compete.

Britain still occupies Spanish land. Don't let their sailors compete.

America still occupies a whole shitload of land. Don't let their sailors compete.

Russia executes journalists and invaded, then annexed, an entire peninsula. Don't let their sailors compete.

Ukraine did some sketchy shit to journalist and opposition politicians. Human rights violations? Don't let their sailors compete.

Britain fucked up half the world. Don't let their sailors compete.

America fucked up the other half. Don't let their sailors compete.

France fucked up North Africa. Don't let their sailors compete.

60 countries are part of a campaign that's bombing civilians in Iraq. Don't let their sailors compete.

Turkey...Holland...Sweden...Italy...Angola...Nigeria...Japan...China...Thailand...

 

 

If you are a creature of logic, it's pretty fucking obvious why you can't allow politics into international sport.

Where does America 'occupy'? Other than good holiday locations?

 

'Occupy' in geo-political terms means an uninvited visitor overstaying their welcome and controlling the local government.

Not like 'Occupy Wallstreet' which means sitting on the sidewalk, ordering Chinese take out, and beating a drum 24 hours a day

waving a pink flag and claiming international journalism rights.

 

Where is this whole shitload of land you speak of?

 

 

Why dont we start in the Pacific and work our way around the world?

 

Bikini Atoll

Enewetak Atoll

Elugelab Island

Rongerik Atoll

Ailinginae Atoll

Rongelap

 

and various other islands in the Marshall chain which the US not only occupied but either blew them up or showered in nuclear ash .

 

I guess that qualifies under the category of shitload of land and ocean (140,000 square miles) which we made uninhabitable.

 

Does the Texas Annexation of 1845 count? They fit your definition of having a local government which generally considers Washington to be uninvited and unwelcome, and you don't find many pink flags in the former Republic.

 

But the statistic that I recall is that the USA has 662 overseas military bases in 38 countries and a military presence in 148 countries. There are several where the presence is not universally popular.

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Spain still occupies Moroccan land. Don't let their sailors compete.

Britain still occupies Spanish land. Don't let their sailors compete.

America still occupies a whole shitload of land. Don't let their sailors compete.

Russia executes journalists and invaded, then annexed, an entire peninsula. Don't let their sailors compete.

Ukraine did some sketchy shit to journalist and opposition politicians. Human rights violations? Don't let their sailors compete.

Britain fucked up half the world. Don't let their sailors compete.

America fucked up the other half. Don't let their sailors compete.

France fucked up North Africa. Don't let their sailors compete.

60 countries are part of a campaign that's bombing civilians in Iraq. Don't let their sailors compete.

Turkey...Holland...Sweden...Italy...Angola...Nigeria...Japan...China...Thailand...

 

 

If you are a creature of logic, it's pretty fucking obvious why you can't allow politics into international sport.

 

Gee, I guess this is the beginning of the end then?

 

From memory, the masses revolt, kill of the rich, politicians and the lawyers and then they pick up the pieces and build communities again...................Sounds good to me :)

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It is not excusable but we should note that Malaysia is not the first host to do this . Canada set the precedent and Malaysia followed suit.

 

http://taiwaninfo.nat.gov.tw/ct.asp?xItem=146031&ctNode=103

 

Michell Sharp, Canadian acting secretary of state for external af­fairs, told the athletes from Taiwan that they could not enter Canada under the name Republic of China, nor could they fly their flag or play their anthem "in view of the political situation prevailing in Canada and the fact that the Canadian government does not recognize the 'Re­public of China. ''

 

The 42 athletes were denied visas unless they agreed not to fly their flag and not play the national anthem. Despite the objections of the IOC,and the team traveling to the US, the Canadians stood their ground , the Taiwanese would not agree to the conditions and went home. One of the teams sent home was a sailing team.

 

So Yachting Canada might have to issue a long over due apology before they join the list of objecting MNAs.

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Spain still occupies Moroccan land. Don't let their sailors compete.

Britain still occupies Spanish land. Don't let their sailors compete.

America still occupies a whole shitload of land. Don't let their sailors compete.

Russia executes journalists and invaded, then annexed, an entire peninsula. Don't let their sailors compete.

Ukraine did some sketchy shit to journalist and opposition politicians. Human rights violations? Don't let their sailors compete.

Britain fucked up half the world. Don't let their sailors compete.

America fucked up the other half. Don't let their sailors compete.

France fucked up North Africa. Don't let their sailors compete.

60 countries are part of a campaign that's bombing civilians in Iraq. Don't let their sailors compete.

Turkey...Holland...Sweden...Italy...Angola...Nigeria...Japan...China...Thailand...

 

 

If you are a creature of logic, it's pretty fucking obvious why you can't allow politics into international sport.

 

Right. So after Nazi Germany invaded Poland, France, Belgium and assorted European countries, as per Mr. Clean, these countries should have been happy to compete without a flag, or under the Swastika.

 

As per Mr. Clean: "If you are a creature of logic, it's pretty fucking obvious why you can't allow politics into international sport."

 

Since I'm not a creature of logic, go make love to your stupid self, Clean.

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In what is normally a quiet week, there has been a lot of activity in the halls of the various organizations that govern sailing. I honestly did not expect to see as much action as we have seen, given the fact that most of the world disconnects between Christmas and New Years.

 

Since word got out on Sailing Anarchy and various other venues about Malaysia injecting politics into a World Championship sporting event, there has been progress made. Several National Authorities including US Sailing, the German national sailing authority, the Dutch national sailing authority and the New Zealand national sailing authority have all made public statements that rejected the actions by Malaysia and forcefully urged World Sailing (ISAF) to take action. Some have wished for additional or different language but in my view it was pretty remarkable that four significant national sailing authorities were able to quickly mobilize the necessary quorum to publish these statements in a timely fashion. It highlights the apparent failure of other significant sailing authorities to similarly support fair play in sailing, with no political influence.

 

I have also been heartened by the degree to which US Sailing President Bruce Burton has been wiling to engage in direct dialogue on the topic. He responded to an email I sent him on the topic, and engaged in an on-going dialogue that has been notable for its honesty, candor and desire to see something done about the type of politics that we saw play out in the Youth World Championships. He certainly had better things to do with his holiday week than to engage with me, and the level of detail he was willing to get into suggests to me that there is a forthright desire to see World Sailing make changes in future events. The actions taken to date by US Sailing along with the direct communication I have had with President Burton goes a long way towards restoring faith in US Sailing, and makes it far easier for the US Class 40 to renew its membership.

 

World Sailing's initial response, while reasonably quick was also weak. Dispatching someone to Malaysia who was probably already going to be there is hardly a endorsement of the values we as sailors want to see in this situation. The fact that they have convened an emergency board meeting for January 8 is a poistive sign that they are taking the situation seriously, or are at least engaged enough to understand that there is real anger across the sailing community over this situation. But their statement of December 31 has some worrisome language. The statement that "[World Sailing] acknowledges that delays in communication by both Israeli and Malaysian officials in the lead up to the regatta have contributed to the situation spiralling into the current controversy" is a poor attempt to obscure the fundamental reason for this "current controversy". The only reason we have this current controversy is because Malaysia initially denied the Israeli athletes visas, then would only grant visas if the Israeli's accepted intolerable and embarrassing restrictions that no other countries' athletes were subject to. World Sailing's language suggests that the Israelis were some how at least partially responsible for the outcome, a completely false canard that seems to be World Sailing's way to spread blame and take the focus off of Malaysia and World Sailing's culpability.

 

It is too late to take any action that will impact this year's Youth World Championships. It will forever be tainted by this controversy with its host country rightfully being scorned by the world wide sailing community and its participants unfortunately never able to have the satisfaction of knowing that their accomplishments were achieved against the all of the world's best.

 

It is not, however, too late to hold World Sailing accountable to make the kind of changes so that this will not happen again. This will not be easy. The very structure of World Sailing insulates its decision makers from that accountability. National Sailing Authorities have important influence, but even their ability to drive action is indirect at best. The IOC certainly has a strong influence in the form the financial contribution it makes to World Sailing. And the collective voices of the sailing community can also help. What you can do:

  1. For sailors in countries whose National Authorities have not yet made public statements, reach out to those authorities and let them know what their membership wants to see and what you will do if you don't see action.
  2. When your authority has made a public statement, hold them accountable for following through.
  3. Contact the key parties in World Sailing directly. Carlo Croce, Nazil Imre, George Andreadis, Chris Atkins, Adrienne Greenwood, Gary Jobson, Quanhai Li, and W. Scott Perry are all on the Executive Committee. The good news is that both Jobson and Greenwood come from countries that have already made a public statement. The other relevant group would be the Events Committee. Its membership is larger, but if you know any of the people listed at http://www.sailing.org/about/committees/events/index.php then you should reach out to them directly to share your thoughts.

 

There have been a wide variety of thoughts shared on the forums about the "correct" course of action that should be taken by World Sailing but a few ideas seem to be consistently repeated:

  • Malaysia should be censured, perhaps by being denied the right to host any future events for the next several years
  • World Sailing should enhance their screening process to look for such things as governmental policies that prohibit visas to citizens of certain countries or are discriminatory in other ways. Another enhancement would be cooperation with other sporting authorities to determine if athletes in other hosted events ahve experienced unfair practices.
  • A demand from World Sailing that if awarded an event the national authority and the government guarantee that all athletes will be treated equitably, and an understanding that failure to follow through on this commitment could result in loss of the event or a ban on hosting future events.
  • The understanding that if sanctions are taken by World Sailing against a country, then those actions will be shared with the governing authorities for other sports for their own evaluations.
  • Given by an apparent history by both Oman and Israeli in holding up visas for athletes in prior events, World Sailing should require a commitment from both countries in order for them to keep the events scheduled in each over the next two years.

 

If you are going to share your thoughts, do it soon. January 8 is coming up quickly.

 

MIchael Hennessy

 

 

Perhaps are can move the conversation away from geo-political stuff over which there is nothing any of us can do, and back to sailing.

 

A couple of key points to remember in all this:

 

Croce is the President of ISAF.....AND....the Italian MNA. Does there really need to be an ISAF Bylaw that says an officer of ISAF can't also be an officer of any MNA, let alone the President of both? Shouldn't common sense relative to conflict of interest prevail with the individual, to say nothing of the people with whom he serves? And the likes of Jobson stay silent about this? Why?

 

So...given Croce's obvious desire to involve himself in clear conflict of interest, what makes anyone think ISAF is even going to do remotely the right thing here - which means starting by calling for an independent investigation.

 

As it happens, Chris Atkins was the guy who was initially responsible for starting the deal with Malaysia in 2011. So Croce sends him over there last week to do what exactly? Investigate himself.

 

FFS...even Nixon's plumbers did a better job with the cover up.

 

Then remember that Jobson was Chair of the US Sailing Nominating Cmte that put Burton in office. I think that accounts for the fairly pithy US Sailing statement.

 

I know Jobson well - or at least thought I did. I helped to broker the deal that ended the Farrah Hall matter after she kicked Charlie Cook and Jim Capron's ass at the USOC. Jobson flew up to Buffalo to meet me in my office to help figure out the way to solve that problem. I didn't go to him, he came to me.

 

Then...with the whole de Ridder thing...Jobson kept pumping me for info about what was going with Dirk, pretending to want to help Dirk get rid of the problem judges in ISAF. He turned on me and Dirk, so I'll never trust him again. It will be interesting to see what the pending lawsuits uncover there.

 

So...with all that in mind, I am less enamored of US Sailings far too wordy and complex response. Why on earth did they have to toss in all that crap about the Miami World Cup event?

 

ISAF knew about this visa problem for years. It is all well documented by Gladwell today.

 

What we don't know is who came up with the idea and then allowed the use of the ISAF logo and name to be used in the event program in place of Israel. Someone inside ISAF must have approved it, and my gut reaction would be a staff member, not a volunteer committee member. That sort of thing didn't just happen on Dec 23rd like ISAF wants us to believe.

 

Then I wonder why Sowreyr resigned ISAF CEO. Did he see this Malaysia thing coming and want no part of it?

 

I don't expect ISAF to do much of anything. Maybe a wrist slap to Malaysia, but it won't be expelling them from ISAF. Follow the money. I won't be surprised if they just toss former ISAF Secretary General Jerome Pels under the bus. All this happened on his watch, he doesn't work there any more, so they have a convenient scapegoat.

 

What really should happen is pressure should be put on ISAF sponsors, starting with Rolex. There is virtually nothing anyone can do to make any sort of internal process have any effect at ISAF. They always have and always will protect themselves and their own. So pressure has to be applied from the outside.

 

I hope Clean is successful with his efforts behind the scenes.

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Thank you Mr Huston for your comments. Plenty to digest there!

 

Britain's RYA have now issued a statement:

 

 

Equal terms

 

The World Sailing constitution is unequivocal that the sport is to be open for participation by all, on equal terms, without regard for race, religion, or any other factor.

The obligation to uphold this principle applies to all Member National Authorities and is especially important in events involving future generations of sailors. Investigation

 

As such, the RYA asks that the investigation be swiftly and thoroughly concluded, and its findings shared transparently with the full World Sailing family.

 

www.rya.org.uk

 

 

It will be interesting to hear what Chris Atkins reports back on the 8th January. Especially as PH says he was involved in brokering the deal with Malaysia back in 2011. From PH's comments we shouldn't expect much.

 

Also there is rumours about Israeli bodyguards that appear to be a false trail maybe put about by the Malaysians? At least the Israeli Sailing Association deny it.

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Several National Authorities including US Sailing, the German national sailing authority, the Dutch national sailing authority and the New Zealand national sailing authority have all made public statements that rejected the actions by Malaysia and forcefully urged World Sailing (ISAF) to take action.

 

MIchael Hennessy

Michael,

So far I've only seen public statements by US and Denmark. Do you have links to others? I could't find anything onhttp://www.dsv.orghttp://www.watersportverbond.nlhttp://www.yachtingnz.org.nz

I saw them yesterday, but will need to look tonight.

RYA. Bit late to the game, but finally.

 

http://www.rya.org.uk/newsevents/news/Pages/statement-on-youth-sailing-world-championships-.aspx

 

Statement on Youth Sailing World Championships

 

Participation in sailing must be open to all, on equal terms

The RYA shares the global concern over events which transpired to prevent the Israeli team from competing at the recent Youth World Sailing Championships in Malaysia.

At the same time, it is encouraging to see the international show of support for the young athletes concerned who have missed out on the opportunity of World Championship competition for reasons outside their control.

Equal terms

The World Sailing constitution is unequivocal that the sport is to be open for participation by all, on equal terms, without regard for race, religion, or any other factor.

The obligation to uphold this principle applies to all Member National Authorities and is especially important in events involving future generations of sailors.

Investigation

As such, the RYA asks that the investigation be swiftly and thoroughly concluded, and its findings shared transparently with the full World Sailing family.

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Following activation on Facebook and Twitter, a first reaction from the French Federation (http://www.ffvoile.fr/ffv/web/actualites/actus_detail.asp?ID=3587) :

 

 

 

En parallèle de l'événement, la Fédération Française de Voile déplore qu'une délégation ait dû renoncer à participer aux Championnats du Monde ISAF, épreuve de référence chez les Jeunes. Dans la mesure où la situation semble plus complexe qu'il n'y parait, la Fédération Française de Voile s'en remet aux conclusions à venir de World Sailing, compétente dans le domaine afin que cette situation ne se reproduise pas à l'avenir.

 

which, translated :

 

 

Parallel to the event, the French Sailing Federation regrets that a delegation had to give up participating in the ISAF World Championships, reference test in the Young. To the extent that the situation seems more complex than it seems, the French Sailing Federation relies on the conclusions coming from World Sailing, competent in the field so that this situation does not recur in future .

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Several National Authorities including US Sailing, the German national sailing authority, the Dutch national sailing authority and the New Zealand national sailing authority have all made public statements that rejected the actions by Malaysia and forcefully urged World Sailing (ISAF) to take action.

 

 

MIchael Hennessy

Michael,

So far I've only seen public statements by US and Denmark. Do you have links to others? I could't find anything on

http://www.dsv.org

http://www.watersportverbond.nl

http://www.yachtingnz.org.nz

I saw them yesterday, but will need to look tonight.

 

Please do. I can't talk to any of our MNA Board members without providing facts. Without them it falls into 'someone said something on some forum' category.

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And now the word from US SAILING

http://www.ussailing.org/youthworldslettertosailors/

Soft cocks...love to see their view if US sailors were on the recieving end of this shit.

 

 

As a sailor in the US, I'm pretty sure the reaction would be about the same. US Sailing is beyond worthless when it comes to racing, and sailors rights. The organization is now focused almost entirely on selling their coaching and teaching certifications. Racing is an afterthought.

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Anyone in London on the 8th?

 

Chance to ask ISAF and Gary Jobson some awkward questions about Malaysia and Oman.

 

 

 

AN AUDIENCE WITH WORLD SAILING

15:45 January 8th 2016

London Boat Show Theatre | London Boat Show | ExCel

You are invited to join World Sailing for a 30 Minute interactive discussion on the direction of the sport. With topics to be covered including:

The Road to Rio

The Emerging Nations Program

The launch of new World Sailing website

World Sailing TV

World Sailing's new in-house production facilities

Speakers to include World Sailing's Vice President Gary Jobson and Chief Marketing Officer Malcolm Page along with special guests including World Sailing TV Series Editorial Director Matthew Sheahan.

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Countries like Malaysia and Oman should not be allowed to host international sailing events unless they allow equal status to all athletes. The current series in Malaysia should never have taken place.

 

Those involved and complicit in allowing the event to go ahead including members of relevant ISAF committee's should be sanctioned and removed from ISAF for bringing it into disrepute.

 

Any future events in countries that might prevent sailors from competing fairly should be cancelled - such as the next ecent in Oman.

 

Any international sailing event organiser using the rules of sailing issued by ISAF like America's Cup, VOR. WMRT or Extreme Sailing should think twice about where they go to make money.

 

Spot on Mr Gladwell. The best racing sailing commentator in the world today (and an ex lawyer like Mr Clean).

 

Text:

The barring of two world champions has also compromised the status of the competition in that those who compete and stand on the medal podium in Langkawi in the RS:X class will always have a shadow over their success - because they know that the world champions in their event did not compete because they were not allowed because of an immigration decision made on political grounds.

 

That is a massive compromise of the sport, made even worse by the deceit of the Malaysian Government in first claiming that the visa denial was made on security grounds, and then after the regatta had started saying that their motive was purely political.

 

On that basis, it is a win-win for the Malaysian politicians. First they have scored a political point by having Israel forced out of the world championship. Second, they have deprived Israel of being able to celebrate success in winning two medals, maybe both of them Gold.

 

That calls for more than just an adjustment of future process and procedure.

 

Heads should roll.

The Israelis WITHDREW from the regatta!

 

They were not banned.

 

Like I pointed out before. History remembers those who stand up to injustice and fight it, not those who run away and act all butthurt.

 

I so wanted to igore you, and I am sure you'll come up with some spin back in your favor (you do know you are unliked and disrespected on this thread, right?) but I digress...

 

You keep making the point that Israel withdrew, they were not banned, yet that is not the root issue being discussed. The root issue is that one country was given requirements for visas that no other country was given. You have acknowledged that in past posts. That one countries visa applications were delayed, while no other country was, delayed to the point that by the time they complied to discriminatory restrictions, not applied to any other country, they would have had but a few days to train; compared to months provided to the other sailors.

 

Te root issue is not just this specific regatta, it is the systemic actions by the ISAF/WS body that repeatedly ignore its own rules and constitutions when certifying venues for World Sailing Events. This is not about Israeli politics, Malaysian politics, or for that matter, any world government politics. It is about an International Organization that flouts its own rules for whatever reason (greed/power).

 

People use this argument about "Think about the children" when talk of sanctions or removing titles or some other action is in order, and I do not understand the viewpoint. If, on day one some competitor broke a rule that resulted in expulsion of the event, should the RC jsut ignore it, because "think of the children". Boats break on the start line, things happen and sometimes all that time, money, and effort sinks to the bottom of the sea, but that is how life works sometimes.

 

The correct reaction from the ISAF/SW officials should have been to cancel the venue, move the venue, or pull out recognition and the MNA hold a expensive, but plain old regatta for those who came.

 

So to be clear, it is not about banning or withdrawing, is is about working from within the rules set forth, it is about keeping to the highest standard of fairness and equity to help promote the sport. Moving forward the WSO should now be very clear about how to approach future events. The ask one question right up front, will every sailor be able to compete without any restrictions imposed that can affect their ability to sail or enter a country without issues? At the moment it would seem that the next couple of Events may be questionable if the WS truly believed in their charter.

 

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Anyone in London on the 8th?

 

Chance to ask ISAF and Gary Jobson some awkward questions about Malaysia and Oman.

 

 

 

AN AUDIENCE WITH WORLD SAILING

15:45 January 8th 2016

London Boat Show Theatre | London Boat Show | ExCel

You are invited to join World Sailing for a 30 Minute interactive discussion on the direction of the sport. With topics to be covered including:

The Road to Rio

The Emerging Nations Program

The launch of new World Sailing website

World Sailing TV

World Sailing's new in-house production facilities

Speakers to include World Sailing's Vice President Gary Jobson and Chief Marketing Officer Malcolm Page along with special guests including World Sailing TV Series Editorial Director Matthew Sheahan.

 

Might go along to that.

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Out of all of the people who race sailboats in the world, I wonder how many are aware of what their MNA and World Sailing does? I wonder how many of them know how they got into the positions they hold? I wonder how many of them are aware of the decision making processes that lead to a World Sailing (ISAF) Youth Worlds? I figure it must be closer to 1 out of 1,000 to 1 out of 10,000.

 

It is hard to see that many really understand who is in charge that leads to these decisions.

 

After the attempt to get sailing out of Guanabara Bay for the 2016 Olympics, very few still understand that World Sailing (ISAF) controls the decision to use those waters and can de-certify Guanabara Bay and move it to a clean water venue. It is clear to me that World Sailing (ISAF) decision making process whether dealing with the Olympics or dealing with a venue for Worlds Championships is highly flawed. They simply are making bad decisions.

 

Once the system is broken which it is, wholesale changes need to come to World Sailing. We will continue to see very bad decisions made by the organization.

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Several National Authorities including US Sailing, the German national sailing authority, the Dutch national sailing authority and the New Zealand national sailing authority have all made public statements that rejected the actions by Malaysia and forcefully urged World Sailing (ISAF) to take action.

 

 

MIchael Hennessy

Michael,

So far I've only seen public statements by US and Denmark. Do you have links to others? I could't find anything on

http://www.dsv.org

http://www.watersportverbond.nl

http://www.yachtingnz.org.nz

I saw them yesterday, but will need to look tonight.

Please do. I can't talk to any of our MNA Board members without providing facts. Without them it falls into 'someone said something on some forum' category.

Found the German Statement at www.webandsail.de and searched in their news section. It's the fifth article down, and in German. It's something of a recap that touches on Gladwell ' article, the Danish federation announcement, the US Sailing announcement and then at the bottom references a statement on December 28 by Andreas Lochbrunner as President of DSV. I can't immediately find the original publication source or 8f it just came out by press release.

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Spain still occupies Moroccan land. Don't let their sailors compete.

Britain still occupies Spanish land. Don't let their sailors compete.

America still occupies a whole shitload of land. Don't let their sailors compete.

Russia executes journalists and invaded, then annexed, an entire peninsula. Don't let their sailors compete.

Ukraine did some sketchy shit to journalist and opposition politicians. Human rights violations? Don't let their sailors compete.

Britain fucked up half the world. Don't let their sailors compete.

America fucked up the other half. Don't let their sailors compete.

France fucked up North Africa. Don't let their sailors compete.

60 countries are part of a campaign that's bombing civilians in Iraq. Don't let their sailors compete.

Turkey...Holland...Sweden...Italy...Angola...Nigeria...Japan...China...Thailand...

 

 

If you are a creature of logic, it's pretty fucking obvious why you can't allow politics into international sport.

Where does America 'occupy'? Other than good holiday locations?

 

'Occupy' in geo-political terms means an uninvited visitor overstaying their welcome and controlling the local government.

Not like 'Occupy Wallstreet' which means sitting on the sidewalk, ordering Chinese take out, and beating a drum 24 hours a day

waving a pink flag and claiming international journalism rights.

 

Where is this whole shitload of land you speak of?

 

There's probably a few Native Americans on the mainland that would share their viewpoint.

 

Fucking savages were eating with their hands and freezing to death. Buffalo have made a comeback. They're not complaining.

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Several National Authorities including US Sailing, the German national sailing authority, the Dutch national sailing authority and the New Zealand national sailing authority have all made public statements that rejected the actions by Malaysia and forcefully urged World Sailing (ISAF) to take action.

 

 

MIchael Hennessy

Michael,

So far I've only seen public statements by US and Denmark. Do you have links to others? I could't find anything on

http://www.dsv.org

http://www.watersportverbond.nl

http://www.yachtingnz.org.nz

I saw them yesterday, but will need to look tonight.

Please do. I can't talk to any of our MNA Board members without providing facts. Without them it falls into 'someone said something on some forum' category.

And Yachting New Zealand's statement came in the form of an interview with David Ambercrombie, Yachting NZ chief executive, shown on tvnz on December 30. You can search on Yachting New Zealand Malaysia tvnz and the link comes up.

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^ Newsfeedbots just cut and pasting post content.

Yeah, but I can't remember or find where the bots got it from. It's too specific to be anything but an actual press statement.

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Several National Authorities including US Sailing, the German national sailing authority, the Dutch national sailing authority and the New Zealand national sailing authority have all made public statements that rejected the actions by Malaysia and forcefully urged World Sailing (ISAF) to take action.

 

 

MIchael Hennessy

Michael,

So far I've only seen public statements by US and Denmark. Do you have links to others? I could't find anything on

http://www.dsv.org

http://www.watersportverbond.nl

http://www.yachtingnz.org.nz

I saw them yesterday, but will need to look tonight.

Please do. I can't talk to any of our MNA Board members without providing facts. Without them it falls into 'someone said something on some forum' category.
Found the German Statement at www.webandsail.de and searched in their news section. It's the fifth article down, and in German. It's something of a recap that touches on Gladwell ' article, the Danish federation announcement, the US Sailing announcement and then at the bottom references a statement on December 28 by Andreas Lochbrunner as President of DSV. I can't immediately find the original publication source or 8f it just came out by press release.

Found it. It is a statement published on www.bayrensail.de/index.php?id=983

 

It's both a recap of German participants and the statement at the bottom of the piece. In German, of course.

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Several National Authorities including US Sailing, the German national sailing authority, the Dutch national sailing authority and the New Zealand national sailing authority have all made public statements that rejected the actions by Malaysia and forcefully urged World Sailing (ISAF) to take action.

 

 

MIchael Hennessy

Michael,

So far I've only seen public statements by US and Denmark. Do you have links to others? I could't find anything on

http://www.dsv.org

http://www.watersportverbond.nl

http://www.yachtingnz.org.nz

I saw them yesterday, but will need to look tonight.

Please do. I can't talk to any of our MNA Board members without providing facts. Without them it falls into 'someone said something on some forum' category.

And it looks like I screwed up with the Dutch, since I can find no trace of the statement. I was sure that I had read something, but perhaps I confused it with the Danish statement.

 

On the upside, there is a decent statement by the Brits now. The French statement is pathetic.

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Found it. It is a statement published on www.bayrensail.de/index.php?id=983

 

It's both a recap of German participants and the statement at the bottom of the piece. In German, of course.

 

Thanks. It's strange that statement is on Bavarian (read - regional) site but there's nothing on official German MNA site. Statement itself is weak, btw.

NZ? It's just Abercrombie's opinion on NZTV, still nothing official on www.yachtingnz.org.nz

Are they all playing low key?

 

Here's nice detective work by Sail World on how it happened that Malaysia got chosen:

http://www.sail-world.com/ISAF-knew-of-Youth-World-champions--exclusion-issue-from-outset/141300

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Ah, the German Sailing Association. The statement can not be found on the official site.

 

Looks like it's from December 28th 2015. It can be found in exactly two places:

In original form(?) on the Bavarian chapter site as an footnote / extension on what is otherwise a 100% copy paste of a German Sailing Association article.

In a slightly edited version as an update of an article from the 27th on yacht.de about Israel withdrawing from the event. - So probably a reaction to that.

(and in 1 news aggregator)

 

 

 

Its a two part statement, the fist part is a recap of the situation they respond to, the second boils down to:
The German Sailing Association expects World Sailing to investigate the incident in a timely fashion and draw corresponding conclusions if the allegations are true. Intolerance has no place in sports.
Oh, the president quoted in the statement comes from Bavaria. Make of that what you want. I think #Neuland. (Explaination for non German speakers)

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Countries like Malaysia and Oman should not be allowed to host international sailing events unless they allow equal status to all athletes. The current series in Malaysia should never have taken place.

 

Those involved and complicit in allowing the event to go ahead including members of relevant ISAF committee's should be sanctioned and removed from ISAF for bringing it into disrepute.

 

Any future events in countries that might prevent sailors from competing fairly should be cancelled - such as the next ecent in Oman.

 

Any international sailing event organiser using the rules of sailing issued by ISAF like America's Cup, VOR. WMRT or Extreme Sailing should think twice about where they go to make money.

 

Spot on Mr Gladwell. The best racing sailing commentator in the world today (and an ex lawyer like Mr Clean).

 

Text:

The barring of two world champions has also compromised the status of the competition in that those who compete and stand on the medal podium in Langkawi in the RS:X class will always have a shadow over their success - because they know that the world champions in their event did not compete because they were not allowed because of an immigration decision made on political grounds.

 

That is a massive compromise of the sport, made even worse by the deceit of the Malaysian Government in first claiming that the visa denial was made on security grounds, and then after the regatta had started saying that their motive was purely political.

 

On that basis, it is a win-win for the Malaysian politicians. First they have scored a political point by having Israel forced out of the world championship. Second, they have deprived Israel of being able to celebrate success in winning two medals, maybe both of them Gold.

 

That calls for more than just an adjustment of future process and procedure.

 

Heads should roll.

The Israelis WITHDREW from the regatta!

 

They were not banned.

 

Like I pointed out before. History remembers those who stand up to injustice and fight it, not those who run away and act all butthurt.

 

I so wanted to igore you, and I am sure you'll come up with some spin back in your favor (you do know you are unliked and disrespected on this thread, right?) but I digress...

 

You keep making the point that Israel withdrew, they were not banned, yet that is not the root issue being discussed. The root issue is that one country was given requirements for visas that no other country was given. You have acknowledged that in past posts. That one countries visa applications were delayed, while no other country was, delayed to the point that by the time they complied to discriminatory restrictions, not applied to any other country, they would have had but a few days to train; compared to months provided to the other sailors.

 

 

My understanding is that the visa delays were due to the israelis not accepting the conditions of the visas which had remained unchanged for years.

 

I doubt that any countries were training for "months" in Langkawi - that is a rather hysterical assertion. Any athletes who really wanted to could have acclimatised and trained just a few miles away in Thailand.

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Anyone in London on the 8th?

 

Chance to ask ISAF and Gary Jobson some awkward questions about Malaysia and Oman.

 

 

 

AN AUDIENCE WITH WORLD SAILING

15:45 January 8th 2016

London Boat Show Theatre | London Boat Show | ExCel

You are invited to join World Sailing for a 30 Minute interactive discussion on the direction of the sport. With topics to be covered including:

The Road to Rio

The Emerging Nations Program

The launch of new World Sailing website

World Sailing TV

World Sailing's new in-house production facilities

Speakers to include World Sailing's Vice President Gary Jobson and Chief Marketing Officer Malcolm Page along with special guests including World Sailing TV Series Editorial Director Matthew Sheahan.

Might go along to that.

Great if you can make it. Maybe get Clean to phrase a suitably question on the subject of Malaysia and Oman that you can ask.

 

Also how about asking how much the budget is for the grandiose TV project they are setting up. Looks like no sponsor so far and with Sunsetvine/APP running the show it won't be cheap!

 

In fact with sailing TV programmes like the Rolex sponsored Shirley Robertson production already around why does ISAF feel that they should be shelling out IOC and MNA monies on their own production.

 

Surely spare hundred's of thousands of IOC cash would be better spent on promoting sailing at the grass roots youth level.

 

I just don't get it. Can anybody explain?

 

Actually I think a new thread on the ISAF TV series should be opened up.

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One of the things that is missing in this conversation is the fact that not one single dissenting voice has been raised from within the ISAF Executive Committee or Council.

 

Not one single person within either of those groups, who really control ISAF has had the balls to come out in public and say "this situation is screwed up and we need a full INDEPENDENT investigation immediately".

 

So in essence, every single member of the Executive and Council is complicit with this problem. Every single one of them.

 

The MNA's can issue all the pithy press releases they want, and it doesn't mean a thing.

 

The whitewash has begun with Croce saying he sent Atkins there to investigate SOMETHING ATKINS WAS RESPONSIBLE FOR STARTING.

 

This is the same as if the guy who was on port tack crashed into you, and then was chairman of the protest committee.

 

Then there's Jobson. He loves to promote the fact he is big buddies with then Senator, and now more importantly, US Secretary of State, John Kerry.

 

Here's a link to just one of the regattas in which they have sailed together. There's plenty of others.

http://www.nantucketcommunitysailing.org/page/6438/

 

So one of Secretary Kerry's friends is on the Board of a Company that did nothing and watched as two young Israeli sailors were denied a chance to compete in a World Championship that the company for which Jobson sits on the Board, all because the likes of Jobson did nothing, and worse, said nothing.

 

Pretty pathetic.

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Pretty pathetic.

the pretty pathetic part is you trying to deflect the whole discussion to your own agenda, time and again, and that agenda is ... to put it mildly, questionable, but then SA's agenda is equally questionably, so it's a pretty funny match, nice to watch anyhow, how's your chum pigeon scalper doing lately and why has he not chimed inhere ? inquiring minds and yada yada

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One of the things that is missing in this conversation is the fact that not one single dissenting voice has been raised from within the ISAF Executive Committee or Council.

 

Not one single person within either of those groups, who really control ISAF has had the balls to come out in public and say "this situation is screwed up and we need a full INDEPENDENT investigation immediately".

 

So in essence, every single member of the Executive and Council is complicit with this problem. Every single one of them.

 

The MNA's can issue all the pithy press releases they want, and it doesn't mean a thing.

 

The whitewash has begun with Croce saying he sent Atkins there to investigate SOMETHING ATKINS WAS RESPONSIBLE FOR STARTING.

 

This is the same as if the guy who was on port tack crashed into you, and then was chairman of the protest committee.

 

Then there's Jobson. He loves to promote the fact he is big buddies with then Senator, and now more importantly, US Secretary of State, John Kerry.

 

Here's a link to just one of the regattas in which they have sailed together. There's plenty of others.

http://www.nantucketcommunitysailing.org/page/6438/

 

So one of Secretary Kerry's friends is on the Board of a Company that did nothing and watched as two young Israeli sailors were denied a chance to compete in a World Championship that the company for which Jobson sits on the Board, all because the likes of Jobson did nothing, and worse, said nothing.

 

Pretty pathetic.

Unbelievable that the person investigating the cock-up and cover-up is the same person who organised it and set it all up.

 

ISAF should immediately remove him from the investigation as he clearly does not have the integrity to rule himself ineligible.

 

Clearly from Gladwells report they knew what was coming as early as 2011 and fluffed away for four more years.

 

Even if they had hoped it would have all disappeared the Oman exclusion of the Israeli sailor's in November 2015 should have flagged up the imminent crash about to happen. But nothing was done until the 28th December with the event underway.

 

Not just gross incompetence from the executive committee running our sport, but also gross misconduct from people who should have known better.

 

They can't blame this all on Jerome Pels.

 

Sounding all too much like FIFA. Next we will be looking for the graft, bribes, corruption and nepotism.

 

Hopefully Presuming Ed could put Mr Jobson on the spot on Friday.

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Dude's...

I've smoked dope, chewed rope, danced, French romanced, fucked, farted, fought, shot the moon and drove big trucks. I've been to Janesville, Maine, Spain, Spokane, and Fort Wayne, seen three world fairs, been around the world twice, looked danger in the face, and seen goats fuck in the marketplace, but I ain't never seen no shit like the shit that happens in this thread!

 

The political and yachting powers are no better than the fuckwits that run/ruin cuntries and ni better than ISIS (other than they try to kill less inocent people)

 

There is only two letters and two degrees of separation between ISAF and ISIS.

 

Also ISAF is no different to Seb Blatters organisation. They are all overpaid and do naff all!

 

 

One thing is for sure... NOTHING will come out of this thread! Nothing!

 

The only way to force change is to change the "infuencers" moral compass or become the biggest " influencer" but with so many fingers in the pie i cant even see that working.

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Dude's...

I've smoked dope, chewed rope, danced, French romanced, fucked, farted, fought, shot the moon and drove big trucks. I've been to Janesville, Maine, Spain, Spokane, and Fort Wayne, seen three world fairs, been around the world twice, looked danger in the face, and seen goats fuck in the marketplace, but I ain't never seen no shit like the shit that happens in this thread!

 

The political and yachting powers are no better than the fuckwits that run/ruin cuntries and ni better than ISIS (other than they try to kill less inocent people)

 

There is only two letters and two degrees of separation between ISAF and ISIS.

 

Also ISAF is no different to Seb Blatters organisation. They are all overpaid and do naff all!

 

 

One thing is for sure... NOTHING will come out of this thread! Nothing!

 

The only way to force change is to change the "infuencers" moral compass or become the biggest " influencer" but with so many fingers in the pie i cant even see that working.

Pure friggin poetry and absolutely spot on.

 

I think best now to leave Clean to take ISAF apart. He is the real thing. Him and the rottweiler called Gladwell

 

And while they are at it please can they look at this whole World Sailing TV operation.

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In summary, every one of the so-called 'Western' sailing organizations punted it to World Sailing. Every one said "we trust they'll do the right thing". Not one said that they will no longer allow their sailors to attend events in countries that act in this manner. Not one gave a single concrete action they would take.

 

This is the action any politician would take. If they do the right thing, they harm their sailors by not allowing them to compete. Then they have their own sailors mad at them: the high visibility ones who pay the bills and win the awards. So they step back, because doing the right thing is just too politically difficult.

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Dude's...

I've smoked dope, chewed rope, danced, French romanced, fucked, farted, fought, shot the moon and drove big trucks. I've been to Janesville, Maine, Spain, Spokane, and Fort Wayne, seen three world fairs, been around the world twice, looked danger in the face, and seen goats fuck in the marketplace, but I ain't never seen no shit like the shit that happens in this thread!

The political and yachting powers are no better than the fuckwits that run/ruin cuntries and ni better than ISIS (other than they try to kill less inocent people)

There is only two letters and two degrees of separation between ISAF and ISIS.

Also ISAF is no different to Seb Blatters organisation. They are all overpaid and do naff all!

One thing is for sure... NOTHING will come out of this thread! Nothing!

The only way to force change is to change the "infuencers" moral compass or become the biggest " influencer" but with so many fingers in the pie i cant even see that working.

Pure friggin poetry and absolutely spot on.

I think best now to leave Clean to take ISAF apart. He is the real thing. Him and the rottweiler called Gladwell

And while they are at it please can they look at this whole World Sailing TV operation.

+1

I've been round the traps a few times in more than a few different classes - from dinghy to maxis and I can't point to much value ISAF or World Sailing has added to the sport of sailing in the past 40 years. Promotion of the grass roots sport and regatta management is independent of these overpaid ineffectual bureaucrats. And bitchin about them here is pointless - these mandarins couldn't give a bugger about sailors opinions - there isn't anything democratic about the structure or the process. Ignore them, enjoy your sailing and move on....

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Dorydude - not a pop, just a correction. - same comment to winchfodder

 

In 2011 the malaysian Authorities 'softened' their attitude on visas for Israeli nationals. Until then there was a total moratorium on the issuance of visas to Israelis. In 2011 they started to allow entry for Israelis with a visa.

 

So by later in 2011 the problem of Israeli exclusion went from "no way, Hosea" to requiring a visa to enter the country.

 

It would be surprising if they denied visas for a couple of kids and their coaches for a major international sporting event.

 

The fact that there were conditions attached should also not be a surprise given the tensions that exist in the Middle East and between Judaism and Islam at the moment,

 

Comments about not being allowed flags on boats and sails are completely irrelevant as EVERY TEAM WAS NOT ALLOWED FLAGS ON BOATS.

 

The boats were supplied equipment and were (hopefully) to be sold on after the event. (The 29er fleet cost USD650,000 on its own).

 

Each boat carried the IOC 3 letter country designation on the sails and hull - much easier to remove and clean off after the event and ALL sailors wore bibs with the same 3 letter designation. If you want photographic proof, just ask as unlike the vast majority of the posters above I was actually at the event to cover the sailing - the politics have just become an unpleasant distraction to the fact there were 425 kids trying their hearts out to be as far up the fleets ads they possibly could and 9 World Championship titles were won, 7 of which - by no stretch of the imagination - could be considered to have been influenced in the slightest by all the rhetoric going on in the background. To suggest otherwise would be in insult to the competitors on the water.

 

Not only were these easier to clean off, they were also easier to identify for race officers on other start or finish line - I challenge anyone to go through the 80 plus national flags at the event and identify(within a split second) each one correctly.

 

So the "no flags on the boat" element of the claim is a moot point.

 

I am not saying there is not a case to answer but I am always suspicious when someone "over argues" their point.

 

Just Saying

 

SS

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Peter Huston, US Sailing had to make a big deal about the Miami event. They are afraid that they're going to lose more volunteers, like me, who refuse to support ISAF.

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The flag issue was a lost in translation problem from the tabloid that originally broke the story. What they evidently meant was no country code. Use a little reasoning skills, kid. Just sayin.

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Dorydude - not a pop, just a correction. - same comment to winchfodder

 

In 2011 the malaysian Authorities 'softened' their attitude on visas for Israeli nationals. Until then there was a total moratorium on the issuance of visas to Israelis. In 2011 they started to allow entry for Israelis with a visa.

 

So by later in 2011 the problem of Israeli exclusion went from "no way, Hosea" to requiring a visa to enter the country.

 

It would be surprising if they denied visas for a couple of kids and their coaches for a major international sporting event.

 

The fact that there were conditions attached should also not be a surprise given the tensions that exist in the Middle East and between Judaism and Islam at the moment,

 

Comments about not being allowed flags on boats and sails are completely irrelevant as EVERY TEAM WAS NOT ALLOWED FLAGS ON BOATS.

 

The boats were supplied equipment and were (hopefully) to be sold on after the event. (The 29er fleet cost USD650,000 on its own).

 

Each boat carried the IOC 3 letter country designation on the sails and hull - much easier to remove and clean off after the event and ALL sailors wore bibs with the same 3 letter designation. If you want photographic proof, just ask as unlike the vast majority of the posters above I was actually at the event to cover the sailing - the politics have just become an unpleasant distraction to the fact there were 425 kids trying their hearts out to be as far up the fleets ads they possibly could and 9 World Championship titles were won, 7 of which - by no stretch of the imagination - could be considered to have been influenced in the slightest by all the rhetoric going on in the background. To suggest otherwise would be in insult to the competitors on the water.

 

Not only were these easier to clean off, they were also easier to identify for race officers on other start or finish line - I challenge anyone to go through the 80 plus national flags at the event and identify(within a split second) each one correctly.

 

So the "no flags on the boat" element of the claim is a moot point.

 

I am not saying there is not a case to answer but I am always suspicious when someone "over argues" their point.

 

Just Saying

 

SS

The flag was hardly the only restriction placed on the Israelis. But go ahead, keep defending the indefensible. Asshole.

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Peter Huston, US Sailing had to make a big deal about the Miami event. They are afraid that they're going to lose more volunteers, like me, who refuse to support ISAF.

 

Good for you to take a principled stand. Though the Miami World Cup event really doesn't have anything to do with US Failing, other than it just happens to be in the US and lots of people get suckered into helping try to fulfill Croce's empire building fantasy (the World Cup, which I am told by an ISAF insider, lost 1.5 million euro's last year, so much for Croce being a sportsmarketing genius).

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One of the things that is missing in this conversation is the fact that not one single dissenting voice has been raised from within the ISAF Executive Committee or Council.

 

Not one single person within either of those groups, who really control ISAF has had the balls to come out in public and say "this situation is screwed up and we need a full INDEPENDENT investigation immediately".

 

So in essence, every single member of the Executive and Council is complicit with this problem. Every single one of them.

 

The MNA's can issue all the pithy press releases they want, and it doesn't mean a thing.

 

The whitewash has begun with Croce saying he sent Atkins there to investigate SOMETHING ATKINS WAS RESPONSIBLE FOR STARTING.

 

This is the same as if the guy who was on port tack crashed into you, and then was chairman of the protest committee.

 

Then there's Jobson. He loves to promote the fact he is big buddies with then Senator, and now more importantly, US Secretary of State, John Kerry.

 

Here's a link to just one of the regattas in which they have sailed together. There's plenty of others.

http://www.nantucketcommunitysailing.org/page/6438/

 

So one of Secretary Kerry's friends is on the Board of a Company that did nothing and watched as two young Israeli sailors were denied a chance to compete in a World Championship that the company for which Jobson sits on the Board, all because the likes of Jobson did nothing, and worse, said nothing.

 

Pretty pathetic.

Unbelievable that the person investigating the cock-up and cover-up is the same person who organised it and set it all up.

 

ISAF should immediately remove him from the investigation as he clearly does not have the integrity to rule himself ineligible.

 

Clearly from Gladwells report they knew what was coming as early as 2011 and fluffed away for four more years.

 

Even if they had hoped it would have all disappeared the Oman exclusion of the Israeli sailor's in November 2015 should have flagged up the imminent crash about to happen. But nothing was done until the 28th December with the event underway.

 

Not just gross incompetence from the executive committee running our sport, but also gross misconduct from people who should have known better.

 

They can't blame this all on Jerome Pels.

 

Sounding all too much like FIFA. Next we will be looking for the graft, bribes, corruption and nepotism.

 

Hopefully Presuming Ed could put Mr Jobson on the spot on Friday.

 

 

I think it is awesome that Croce sent his grocery clerk Atkins on a fools errand up the river to find Capt Kurtz.

 

If you want to look at the CAS ruling in the de Ridder case, while not exactly applicable, generally you will see in section 109 that CAS tells ISAF they need a separation from investigator to judge and jury. Once again, there is no separation because Atkins is going to serve as investigator and then judge during this "emergency" meeting.

http://www.tas-cas.org/fileadmin/user_upload/Award_FINAL__internet_.pdf

 

It's too bad the Israeli's didn't go immediately to CAS and ask for an injunction before the event. Yes, it would have screwed things up royally for everyone involved, but it's messed up as it is. Maybe the Israeli's didn't want to put the kids front and center in all of this, which I can respect.

 

I do hope that someone files a Reg 35 against the Executive for the way this has all been handled. Of course, ISAF will deny the Reg 35, which, then gives the opportunity for the plaintiff to go the next step inside ISAF to the Review Board, which will of course also deny it. All that is necessary to them get to CAS, at least from an outsiders perspective. The Israeli sailors can probably do directly to CAS, and I hope they do. And/or drag ISAF's ass into court. The European Court of Human Rights might also be an option.

 

Fuck you Croce and the entire ISAF Executive Committee.

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Peter Huston, US Sailing had to make a big deal about the Miami event. They are afraid that they're going to lose more volunteers, like me, who refuse to support ISAF.

Good for you to take a principled stand. Though the Miami World Cup event really doesn't have anything to do with US Failing, other than it just happens to be in the US and lots of people get suckered into helping try to fulfill Croce's empire building fantasy (the World Cup, which I am told by an ISAF insider, lost 1.5 million euro's last year, so much for Croce being a sportsmarketing genius).

Any inside info on what the whole World Sailing TV show is going to cost ISAF. Why is this being pushed through with all the Jobson press conference ect on Friday.

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Any inside info on what the whole World Sailing TV show is going to cost ISAF. Why is this being pushed through with all the Jobson press conference ect on Friday.

 

I hope some SA resident with experience in TV production will chime in. I doubt ISAF will publish any real figures.

And, by the way, who is this 'World Sailing TV Series Editorial Director Matthew Sheahan'? A friend of a friend of a friend or someone from the 'family' who needed a job?

If this is him, I don't see any sailing related work in his CV..

http://www.filmandtvpro.com/uk/crew/profile/matt-sheahan-2

http://www.spotlight.com/9816-8944-7052

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Any inside info on what the whole World Sailing TV show is going to cost ISAF. Why is this being pushed through with all the Jobson press conference ect on Friday.

 

I hope some SA resident with experience in TV production will chime in. I doubt ISAF will publish any real figures.

And, by the way, who is this 'World Sailing TV Series Editorial Director Matthew Sheahan'? A friend of a friend of a friend or someone from the 'family' who needed a job?

If this is him, I don't see any sailing related work in his CV..

http://www.filmandtvpro.com/uk/crew/profile/matt-sheahan-2

http://www.spotlight.com/9816-8944-7052

Surely Mr Gladwell can find the costs buried in the minutes? I thought there was a reasonable level of transparency required in the ISAF constitution.

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No sailing work? Matt Sheahan is technical editor of Yachting World.

Presuming Ed, I said "if this is him" in my post.

I didn't know that Yachting World technical editor's name is also Matthew Sheahan. Thanks for correcting me.

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Any inside info on what the whole World Sailing TV show is going to cost ISAF. Why is this being pushed through with all the Jobson press conference ect on Friday.

 

I hope some SA resident with experience in TV production will chime in. I doubt ISAF will publish any real figures.

And, by the way, who is this 'World Sailing TV Series Editorial Director Matthew Sheahan'? A friend of a friend of a friend or someone from the 'family' who needed a job?

If this is him, I don't see any sailing related work in his CV..

http://www.filmandtvpro.com/uk/crew/profile/matt-sheahan-2

http://www.spotlight.com/9816-8944-7052

Surely Mr Gladwell can find the costs buried in the minutes? I thought there was a reasonable level of transparency required in the ISAF constitution.

 

 

What ISAF says in their constitution and what this Executive and Staff do are two completely different things.

 

No...cost info that you seek is virtually impossible to find.

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While in the U.S. we look at our method of government governance with three distinct different branches - the Executive, Legislative and Judicial, All provide checks and balances on each other. Organizations in sailing have one branch. With good people involved, it works. But there is no oversight otherwise. Unless the "press" takes on an issue and balloons it into something big. Alas sailing rarely draws media attention.

 

Peter Huston is correct with this "check and balance" though it takes some individual to expend a fair amount of money (more than likely engaging an attorney, airflights to England and Switzerland) which won't fix the anti-semitism already accomplished by a government action of which World Sailing is complicit by scheduling the event they own into a country that practices this attrocious behavior, it may just provide a strong reminder for World Sailing not to engage in that behavior again in the future.

 

Peter Huston "I do hope that someone files a Reg 35 against the Executive for the way this has all been handled. Of course, ISAF will deny the Reg 35, which, then gives the opportunity for the plaintiff to go the next step inside ISAF to the Review Board, which will of course also deny it. All that is necessary to them get to CAS, at least from an outsiders perspective. The Israeli sailors can probably do directly to CAS, and I hope they do. And/or drag ISAF's ass into court."

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Countries like Malaysia and Oman should not be allowed to host international sailing events unless they allow equal status to all athletes. The current series in Malaysia should never have taken place.

 

Those involved and complicit in allowing the event to go ahead including members of relevant ISAF committee's should be sanctioned and removed from ISAF for bringing it into disrepute.

 

Any future events in countries that might prevent sailors from competing fairly should be cancelled - such as the next ecent in Oman.

 

Any international sailing event organiser using the rules of sailing issued by ISAF like America's Cup, VOR. WMRT or Extreme Sailing should think twice about where they go to make money.

 

Spot on Mr Gladwell. The best racing sailing commentator in the world today (and an ex lawyer like Mr Clean).

 

Text:

The barring of two world champions has also compromised the status of the competition in that those who compete and stand on the medal podium in Langkawi in the RS:X class will always have a shadow over their success - because they know that the world champions in their event did not compete because they were not allowed because of an immigration decision made on political grounds.

 

That is a massive compromise of the sport, made even worse by the deceit of the Malaysian Government in first claiming that the visa denial was made on security grounds, and then after the regatta had started saying that their motive was purely political.

 

On that basis, it is a win-win for the Malaysian politicians. First they have scored a political point by having Israel forced out of the world championship. Second, they have deprived Israel of being able to celebrate success in winning two medals, maybe both of them Gold.

 

That calls for more than just an adjustment of future process and procedure.

 

Heads should roll.

The Israelis WITHDREW from the regatta!

 

They were not banned.

 

Like I pointed out before. History remembers those who stand up to injustice and fight it, not those who run away and act all butthurt.

 

I so wanted to igore you, and I am sure you'll come up with some spin back in your favor (you do know you are unliked and disrespected on this thread, right?) but I digress...

 

You keep making the point that Israel withdrew, they were not banned, yet that is not the root issue being discussed. The root issue is that one country was given requirements for visas that no other country was given. You have acknowledged that in past posts. That one countries visa applications were delayed, while no other country was, delayed to the point that by the time they complied to discriminatory restrictions, not applied to any other country, they would have had but a few days to train; compared to months provided to the other sailors.

 

 

My understanding is that the visa delays were due to the israelis not accepting the conditions of the visas which had remained unchanged for years.

 

I doubt that any countries were training for "months" in Langkawi - that is a rather hysterical assertion. Any athletes who really wanted to could have acclimatised and trained just a few miles away in Thailand.

 

You are again attempting to spin this around. The issue, the only issue here is that the ISAF selected a venue for a World Championship that has discriminatory practices against specific people (countries). Because those political policies are in place, because the charter, mission, and constitution of the ISAF is to provide a non-discriminatory place for sailors to compete, the Malaysian site should not have been selected, or the venue revoked the moment it was clear that one country would be treated differently.

 

It does not matter what the restrictions were, they were not applied across all entries. That is the root of this whole issue.

 

Personally, I find the idea that sailors can practice at the location of a World Championship wrong. If they are champions then the first time they get to sail on location is perhaps a day before. SInce it seems sailors are allowed access, then yes, there is a basic advantage to spending time on the waters of the competition. Weather, tidal conditions can be quite different even "a few miles away" thus rendering your other point moot.

 

SSailor, I think the whole flag thing has been put to bed. The deeper issue is that even had the Israeli's attended, they would have to sail with the ISAF code, not their country code. They would not hear their national anthem if they won. Those two points are quite discriminatory and go against the constitution of the ISAF (as well the spirit of seeing all sailors as equals). The venue should has been moved, cancelled, or World Championship status removed. Since it was not, the message to "the children" is that it okay to treat certain people differently as long as I get mine. The better message should have been, we care they everyone gets equal status so much that we will take even drastic action to ensure that all sailors are treated with respect.

 

This has been a huge fail by the ISAF, but not surprizing. Money rules and power corrupts even good people eventually.

 

Someone said that the MNA's can't do much, but that is not true. They can, in the future, refuse to support ISAF/WS venues that discriminate by not supporting individual or teams that want to go. They can say, we will not participate in an event that puts one set of people below others for no other reason than the country they hail from.

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The flag issue was a lost in translation problem from the tabloid that originally broke the story. What they evidently meant was no country code. Use a little reasoning skills, kid. Just sayin.

The Malaysian apologists in this thread focusing in on the fact that no countries had their flags on their sails is a bit like someone having their position destroyed in an internet debate and then grasping desperately onto a typo the other side made.

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