sfigone

3Di sail needs a recut?

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I've got a 680 3Di main on my Archambault 32 club racer. When new, the sail was a real weapon. But now after only 2 seasons, it's looking stretched and Norths reckons that it needs a recut?!?

 

Is this normal?

 

The sail has been well used (1 or 2 inshore club races per week), but never really thrashed. It's probably been reefed less than 10 times and has only seen more than 30kn on 2 or 3 occasions. It's only been out in one big blow and that was for 30 minutes, down wind, minimal flogging. It was flaked for the first season, but we now roll it.

 

The Norths publicity for 3DL is that it does not need recutting and sure enough my 3DL jibs are into their 5th season and their shape is great although the mylar is pretty fragile now. Their publicity for 3Di is that it is better than 3DL, so I wasn't expecting to be searching for main shape after only 2 seasons! The reason I went for the extra dollars of 3Di is all the good press that I've read about their shape holding and longevity. I had hoped I would have a good main for 5 season - not 2!

 

I've been looking at other 3Di's on the harbour and none of them look as poor as mine. So is everybody else is getting theirs recut? or do have I have a dud sail; or do I have unrealistic expectations of how 3Di will last?

 

cheers

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read the Otra Vez thread. their sails are continually recut after a race. also, contact your north sales guy to have a look.

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read the Otra Vez thread. their sails are continually recut after a race. also, contact your north sales guy to have a look.

Otra Vez is a bit of a different program than a club racing Archambault 32 don't you think?

 

Have your sailmaker come out and take a look at it.

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I think when the OP says 'North reckons that it needs a recut' we can assume that he's already talked to his sailmaker...

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Greg,

 

Your story line sounds just like mine in terms of migrating to 3di from 3dl for the benefits touted etc. I would not have expected to hear the sail has "lost shape", though given your description of being used 2 x a week for two years with a few blows thrown in it sounds like it has seen some service. My main is under a year I think and still looks fine, but with a lot less usage to date. Will be interested to hear the ending to the story, please keep us posted.

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read the Otra Vez thread. their sails are continually recut after a race. also, contact your north sales guy to have a look.

Otra Vez is a bit of a different program than a club racing Archambault 32 don't you think?

 

Have your sailmaker come out and take a look at it.

 

 

true, but the OP had a question about how normal it is to recut a 3di sail, Which the otra vez boys feel is very necessary. It might be less relevant for an archambault 32, but north reckons it needs a recut anyway. so it is not unusual for sails, even 3di, to need a recut

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read the Otra Vez thread. their sails are continually recut after a race. also, contact your north sales guy to have a look.

 

Otra Vez is a bit of a different program than a club racing Archambault 32 don't you think?

 

Have your sailmaker come out and take a look at it.

true, but the OP had a question about how normal it is to recut a 3di sail, Which the otra vez boys feel is very necessary. It might be less relevant for an archambault 32, but north reckons it needs a recut anyway. so it is not unusual for sails, even 3di, to need a recut

I believe Ken Read has talked about the need for 3di sails to have recuts. My guess is that the combination of creep and overall low stretch ends up with a new shape "locked in" after a period of use. With a recut the sailmaker can get back close to the original fast shape.

 

I am not sure though and North has emphasized longevity as a selling point for 3di. I am interested in if you get the recut and how happy you are with the recut sail.

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Thanks for the feedback.

 

I have been talking with my sail maker (one of the reasons I went with Norths is the time their sail makers give to you) and it was his suggestion on seeing the photos that a recut was needed, perhaps also some rig tuning. He will be coming out with us shortly. However, I just wanted to re-educate myself for expectations before that - as my previous expectations were that a recut would not be necessary with 3Di. Now that it has been suggested, I want to know how normal/frequent that is going to be, so I can better determine if I want to buy 3DL or 3Di jibs soon.

 

Note that 2 races per week is only over Summer, with only a few races over winter. The sail has probably seen just over 100 races, which is ~300 hours, yet from Norths own site they say that AC racers got 400 hours from their main sails: I'm a long way off an AC racer in my standards, so I thought 300 hours as not that much.

 

I have found a link to Ken Read talking about recutting 3Di , which is interesting as he talks a lot more about the balance between stiffness and durability. My sail is a 760 (I wrongly said 780 in original post), so that is dyneema kevlar mix with no carbon. Perhaps the carbon blend sails have less creep in them? I note they are now pushing the 780s at the same price point as 760! As I have no satellite communications issues, perhaps the 780 would have been a better sail?

But then there is this more recent conversation with Ken Read, where he notes that with the volvos now, you are not allowed to recut - they use 760, go around the world and say their sails look like they can go around again!

 

Note also that the longevity of the sail is good - I don't think there is even a pulled stitch and perhaps just a hint of abrasion on the spreader patches. It's just the shape, which was great for the first 18 months, but has really fallen off recently. @Soho, I'll be interested to hear how your sails go.

 

I'll report back here after I've taken sailmaker for a spin.

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Without knowing far more about you particular sail, sounds to me like it was a little underbuilt.

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If you want to stay at top end of fleet with used sails, you should get luff curves adjusted. We run our od program on older sails, and get luff curve changed for venues expected wind strength.

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So I took the sail maker out today. Here is the summation:

 

The dimpling of the sail in some areas is a) mostly cosmetic; B) partially due to the fact that we have a big boat main on a small boat. Now they have a product that is better tailored to small boats, but my main was made with tapes designed for big boats. The effect of this was that in order to make the sail light enough it has thick and thin parts, which causes the dimples. The 3Di sails made now for small boats don't have this issue as they can use right sized tapes and the end sail is a more uniform thickness.

 

The depth at the top of the main was mostly due to overly soft top full battens. This was fine for when the sail was new, but needs to be a bit stiffer now.

 

The creases in front of the bottom two partial battens are due to some stretch in the sail, but also from a bit of over bend in the mast as we tried to flatten the top with its soft battens.

 

So they are going to replace top battens and remake the front of the partial batten pockets, perhaps putting in slightly longer battens.

 

So that's not much of a recut.... will report back to say how much of an effect it has.

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good to hear and sounds like decent advise.

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I know they dulled down some of the low stretch properties in 3di for production boats as it meant they would fit better with existing halyards and deck gear, several rope brands have worked making even lower strech halyards to work with 3di. A little bit of built in give works well for boats designed for different products

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Yes top battens stiff, is good advice. Don't over tighten, or even really tighten them at all in heavy air.

 

Most sails need a little nip n tuck after a year anyways, most people don't.

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I talked to a North sailmaker who saw Macif's sails from the 2012 Vendee, and he said that the only thing that would need to be changed is the tacks/clews where the webbing got worn down. Material stretch, decomposition, deformation, were all good enough to see the set go around the world another time in winning form.

 

HW

 

Thanks for the feedback.

 

I have been talking with my sail maker (one of the reasons I went with Norths is the time their sail makers give to you) and it was his suggestion on seeing the photos that a recut was needed, perhaps also some rig tuning. He will be coming out with us shortly. However, I just wanted to re-educate myself for expectations before that - as my previous expectations were that a recut would not be necessary with 3Di. Now that it has been suggested, I want to know how normal/frequent that is going to be, so I can better determine if I want to buy 3DL or 3Di jibs soon.

 

Note that 2 races per week is only over Summer, with only a few races over winter. The sail has probably seen just over 100 races, which is ~300 hours, yet from Norths own site they say that AC racers got 400 hours from their main sails: I'm a long way off an AC racer in my standards, so I thought 300 hours as not that much.

 

I have found a link to Ken Read talking about recutting 3Di , which is interesting as he talks a lot more about the balance between stiffness and durability. My sail is a 760 (I wrongly said 780 in original post), so that is dyneema kevlar mix with no carbon. Perhaps the carbon blend sails have less creep in them? I note they are now pushing the 780s at the same price point as 760! As I have no satellite communications issues, perhaps the 780 would have been a better sail?

But then there is this more recent conversation with Ken Read, where he notes that with the volvos now, you are not allowed to recut - they use 760, go around the world and say their sails look like they can go around again!

 

Note also that the longevity of the sail is good - I don't think there is even a pulled stitch and perhaps just a hint of abrasion on the spreader patches. It's just the shape, which was great for the first 18 months, but has really fallen off recently. @Soho, I'll be interested to hear how your sails go.

 

I'll report back here after I've taken sailmaker for a spin.

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I talked to a North sailmaker who saw Macif's sails from the 2012 Vendee, and he said that the only thing that would need to be changed is the tacks/clews where the webbing got worn down. Material stretch, decomposition, deformation, were all good enough to see the set go around the world another time in winning form.

 

HW

 

 

Thanks for the feedback.

 

I have been talking with my sail maker (one of the reasons I went with Norths is the time their sail makers give to you) and it was his suggestion on seeing the photos that a recut was needed, perhaps also some rig tuning. He will be coming out with us shortly. However, I just wanted to re-educate myself for expectations before that - as my previous expectations were that a recut would not be necessary with 3Di. Now that it has been suggested, I want to know how normal/frequent that is going to be, so I can better determine if I want to buy 3DL or 3Di jibs soon.

 

Note that 2 races per week is only over Summer, with only a few races over winter. The sail has probably seen just over 100 races, which is ~300 hours, yet from Norths own site they say that AC racers got 400 hours from their main sails: I'm a long way off an AC racer in my standards, so I thought 300 hours as not that much.

 

I have found a link to Ken Read talking about recutting 3Di , which is interesting as he talks a lot more about the balance between stiffness and durability. My sail is a 760 (I wrongly said 780 in original post), so that is dyneema kevlar mix with no carbon. Perhaps the carbon blend sails have less creep in them? I note they are now pushing the 780s at the same price point as 760! As I have no satellite communications issues, perhaps the 780 would have been a better sail?

But then there is this more recent conversation with Ken Read, where he notes that with the volvos now, you are not allowed to recut - they use 760, go around the world and say their sails look like they can go around again!

 

Note also that the longevity of the sail is good - I don't think there is even a pulled stitch and perhaps just a hint of abrasion on the spreader patches. It's just the shape, which was great for the first 18 months, but has really fallen off recently. @Soho, I'll be interested to hear how your sails go.

 

I'll report back here after I've taken sailmaker for a spin.

I wonder how much the reduced percentage of time spent flogging helps that super long life. A RTW boat spends, proportionally, a lot less of its time dojng things like tacks, or racking up for a start, with sails flogging.

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Deformation at front end of partial battens offer caused by overtension too

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so, you got a substandard product because they didn't have an appropriate manufacturing process for your needs? Are they charging you for fixing these problems?

 

Or did you know this walking in and conveniently forget?

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A normal RTW boat, yes, but solo boats spend ALOT of time flogging sails. Putting in or shaking a reef solo? You're giong to spend about 8 minutes with that main flogging. Going for a C0 furl? That's 11 minutes. Which is why I was so surprised that Macif's sails were in such good smack when they got back (allegedly).

 

HW

 

 

I talked to a North sailmaker who saw Macif's sails from the 2012 Vendee, and he said that the only thing that would need to be changed is the tacks/clews where the webbing got worn down. Material stretch, decomposition, deformation, were all good enough to see the set go around the world another time in winning form.

HW

Thanks for the feedback.

I have been talking with my sail maker (one of the reasons I went with Norths is the time their sail makers give to you) and it was his suggestion on seeing the photos that a recut was needed, perhaps also some rig tuning. He will be coming out with us shortly. However, I just wanted to re-educate myself for expectations before that - as my previous expectations were that a recut would not be necessary with 3Di. Now that it has been suggested, I want to know how normal/frequent that is going to be, so I can better determine if I want to buy 3DL or 3Di jibs soon.

Note that 2 races per week is only over Summer, with only a few races over winter. The sail has probably seen just over 100 races, which is ~300 hours, yet from Norths own site they say that AC racers got 400 hours from their main sails: I'm a long way off an AC racer in my standards, so I thought 300 hours as not that much.

I have found a link to Ken Read talking about recutting 3Di , which is interesting as he talks a lot more about the balance between stiffness and durability. My sail is a 760 (I wrongly said 780 in original post), so that is dyneema kevlar mix with no carbon. Perhaps the carbon blend sails have less creep in them? I note they are now pushing the 780s at the same price point as 760! As I have no satellite communications issues, perhaps the 780 would have been a better sail?
But then there is this more recent conversation with Ken Read, where he notes that with the volvos now, you are not allowed to recut - they use 760, go around the world and say their sails look like they can go around again!

Note also that the longevity of the sail is good - I don't think there is even a pulled stitch and perhaps just a hint of abrasion on the spreader patches. It's just the shape, which was great for the first 18 months, but has really fallen off recently. @Soho, I'll be interested to hear how your sails go.

I'll report back here after I've taken sailmaker for a spin.

I wonder how much the reduced percentage of time spent flogging helps that super long life. A RTW boat spends, proportionally, a lot less of its time dojng things like tacks, or racking up for a start, with sails flogging.

 

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Well I got the sail back with 2 new battens cut into it and a new stiffer top batten. Unfortunately it has not really helped the shape that much as the top is still too deep and the stretch through the middle is still apparent. More over the battens are are bit old style and stand out as being sewn across the middle of the sail and they gave me a big bill for it. Even worse, one of the "cosmetic" creases up the luff has torn and it also needed repair.

 

So I'm not so happy. Either it is entirely normal for 3Di mains to need significant recuts after 2 years - in which case the publicity about being durable is just wrong (my 3DL jibs are 5 years old and still in good shape and 3Di is meant to be better for durability); OR there is something wrong with my particular sail that is not normal?

 

I suspect the later because I've never ever seen another 3Di sail with new battens like I've got. Is everybody else replacing 3Di sails every 2 years? If so then I can't afford to play this game anymore!

 

I'm lining up another sail with the sail maker next month, so I'll report back after that. In the mean time, if anybody else knows of any other 3Di sail on a club racer that needed to be recut due to stretch, then I would really like to know about it!

 

thanks all

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there is a joke around along the lines of they are called 3d because they last 3 days.

I had some 3di sails on a boat that I bought and they self destructed very quickly. They were old though (but had not been used much)

On the other hand sails on a big boat that were 3dl had done many many miles and seemed to be in perfect shape.

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Well I got the sail back with 2 new battens cut into it and a new stiffer top batten. Unfortunately it has not really helped the shape that much as the top is still too deep and the stretch through the middle is still apparent. More over the battens are are bit old style and stand out as being sewn across the middle of the sail and they gave me a big bill for it. Even worse, one of the "cosmetic" creases up the luff has torn and it also needed repair.

 

So I'm not so happy. Either it is entirely normal for 3Di mains to need significant recuts after 2 years - in which case the publicity about being durable is just wrong (my 3DL jibs are 5 years old and still in good shape and 3Di is meant to be better for durability); OR there is something wrong with my particular sail that is not normal?

 

I suspect the later because I've never ever seen another 3Di sail with new battens like I've got. Is everybody else replacing 3Di sails every 2 years? If so then I can't afford to play this game anymore!

 

I'm lining up another sail with the sail maker next month, so I'll report back after that. In the mean time, if anybody else knows of any other 3Di sail on a club racer that needed to be recut due to stretch, then I would really like to know about it!

 

thanks all

I think you have every right to be unimpressed. Sounds like a duff sail to me. I'd be on the warpath if I was you.

 

What staggers me is that you are lining up another sail with the same sailmaker next month? For heavens sake man, why? Vote with your feet. Tell 'em to fix this mess (properly this time) if they want your next order or walk down the road. Find someone who you trust and have them make you a sail out of something like GPL. There are options in the market that are at least as good as 3dx. And almost every one of them will be cheaper to boot too.

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there is a joke around along the lines of they are called 3d because they last 3 days.

3DL = 3 days long

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Well I got the sail back with 2 new battens cut into it and a new stiffer top batten. Unfortunately it has not really helped the shape that much as the top is still too deep and the stretch through the middle is still apparent. More over the battens are are bit old style and stand out as being sewn across the middle of the sail and they gave me a big bill for it. Even worse, one of the "cosmetic" creases up the luff has torn and it also needed repair.

 

So I'm not so happy. Either it is entirely normal for 3Di mains to need significant recuts after 2 years - in which case the publicity about being durable is just wrong (my 3DL jibs are 5 years old and still in good shape and 3Di is meant to be better for durability); OR there is something wrong with my particular sail that is not normal?

 

I suspect the later because I've never ever seen another 3Di sail with new battens like I've got. Is everybody else replacing 3Di sails every 2 years? If so then I can't afford to play this game anymore!

 

I'm lining up another sail with the sail maker next month, so I'll report back after that. In the mean time, if anybody else knows of any other 3Di sail on a club racer that needed to be recut due to stretch, then I would really like to know about it!

 

thanks all

I think you have every right to be unimpressed. Sounds like a duff sail to me. I'd be on the warpath if I was you.

 

What staggers me is that you are lining up another sail with the same sailmaker next month? For heavens sake man, why? Vote with your feet. Tell 'em to fix this mess (properly this time) if they want your next order or walk down the road. Find someone who you trust and have them make you a sail out of something like GPL. There are options in the market that are at least as good as 3dx. And almost every one of them will be cheaper to boot too.

 

 

I believe he's having the sailmaker come out to look at the sail next month. Not order another sail.

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I think you have every right to be unimpressed. Sounds like a duff sail to me. I'd be on the warpath if I was you.

 

What staggers me is that you are lining up another sail with the same sailmaker next month? For heavens sake man, why? Vote with your feet. Tell 'em to fix this mess (properly this time) if they want your next order or walk down the road. Find someone who you trust and have them make you a sail out of something like GPL. There are options in the market that are at least as good as 3dx. And almost every one of them will be cheaper to boot too.

 

 

Well the reason I switched to Norths in the first place is that they do generally give me lots of time and advice. A very experienced sail maker has come out on several test sails and plus a few races days, giving us lots of advice and training, as well as seeing how we sail the boat. I've been really happy with the jibs and have a new kite from them that is looking pretty good as well. So it's a bit of a shock to get the "we build better 3Di now" story without the following " so we will make it good for you by ....".

 

So getting them out for another day to for the "how this sail can be fixed" is kind of the wrong conversation to . I do need to be having the "why does this sail need to be fixed in the first place" conversation. I will be having that talk, but I'm gathering my info (here and other places) first, so I know better if 3Di is the problem in general or is it a problem with my particular sail.

 

What I'm learning is that 3Di for small boats has not been a good product for durability and I now know of several sails that have had problems like mine. Perhaps it is better now, but that doesn't help me nor does it cover Norths for telling me their product was durable and charging top dollar for it. So unless the conversation goes well with Norths, then I will be talking to other sail makers.... (even though I think 3DL would be a fine replacement).

 

cheers

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How much racing do you do with your 3DL / 3DI sails?

I have a friend who has a new 3DI Genoa for his J35 and I heard it costs $7,000 USD. He can't wait to get a new main and #3.

If you race a lot and you get 5 years of racing out of it that could be worth it. But fer krikies sake, $7k is almost as much as I have in my boat all up with a new Ullman Main.

DAAAAMMMMNNNNN

 

What does North consider a small boat?

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Just as a reference point, in 2007 I bought a 3DL with taffeta on it as my "cruising" RF jib, great sail. I replaced it with 3di last year at about the same cost, and that cost was slightly more than the 7k on the J35, but I have a 42' masthead rig, so probably about same cost ratio per sq foot. I also buy during boat show discount season. I am banking heavily on the purported 3di longevity, once the 3DL starts to delam, it is game over. The 3di sails are really nice, no doubt about that. They are also much lighter to hump around by yourself. In my experience, North has had good customer service and I have had no real issues on quality of the rags I get. True or false, I think that all the work that they do on AC and other high end campaigns has a trickle down impact to even the designs that what I get. Just my thoughts. It will be interesting to hear via forums like this what the real world experience is with the 3di, but of course it takes a few years before we get good real empirical data on durability.

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I guess it hasn't been long enough but one of the things I like about the 3di is that it doesn't seem to have the really awful failure mode of string and film laminates where the film starts to get brittle and go to hell in short order. The 3di I've raced with seems to fail a lot more gracefully.

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That's just it, I haven't seen them yet. You don't get the softness and stretchiness of Dacron or the tissue paper of laminates.

 

I'm lucky to race on boats where sails aren't expected to have crazy long shelf lives but so far the 3di sails I've used don't really have a telltale sign that they've gone to shit.

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@Crush - what size boats?

 

I've been contacted by another owner of a 30 something footer who has had exactly the same problem as me. Both 3Di mains have lost their shape in under two years!

 

@Dawg - we raced 1 or 2 per week during the summer, typically 2 hour club races and 6 races over winter, so the 3DLs have probably done 40ish races per year for 5 years. We are racing a little less often at the moment, so the 3Di main has probably done less than 80 races or approx 200 hours.

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@Crush - what size boats?

 

I've been contacted by another owner of a 30 something footer who has had exactly the same problem as me. Both 3Di mains have lost their shape in under two years!

 

@Dawg - we raced 1 or 2 per week during the summer, typically 2 hour club races and 6 races over winter, so the 3DLs have probably done 40ish races per year for 5 years. We are racing a little less often at the moment, so the 3Di main has probably done less than 80 races or approx 200 hours.

The fact that the recut didn't get the shape back is more telling than that the mains lost their shape to begin with. This combined with the admission from your North guy that there was an issue building smaller 3di mains sounds like there were similar problems with enough of these sails to notice.

 

Whether this is a too bad you get what you get when you are an early adopter deal or something that North should try to make right in some manner isn't for me to say,

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$7,000.00 for a J-35 Genoa in 3Di? hmmm? is this a #2 genoa? were illegal immigrants brought in to build this sail? or is this the bragging price since someone paid over 10 grand?

 

and really? for a small boat, for me that is under 40ft, 3Di, stratis, uni-titanium and other products of this nature i feel is just over kill and a real waist of money. but that is me.

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I definitely don't agree that top quality sails are somehow overkill under 40ft, and I think when you look at most top quality programs they are of the same opinion.

 

How does the size of the boat really have anything to do with it. The only thing that matters is whether the sail is designed and built correctly. Sure it's overkill if you're sailing in some inland c-fleet with a bunch of 70s retired IOR boats. but I don't think that's what we're talking about here.

 

Greg, to answer your question, 30, 36, 40, and 52, so a decent mix.

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Panelled vs membrane, fiberpath, 3dl ect all depends on what you want out of the sails and size of boat. Generally for boats between 20-30ft is where you see a good cross over between the different technologies being faster/better, the smaller you go the easier it is build the shape into a panelled sail as there are more seams to shape with and the more cost effective it becomes. E.g J24s, they all tried membrane, 3dl ect genoas for a while and then realised that panelled at that size is faster, better shape and a more flexible shape through the wind range. Go a bit bigger, Mumm 30, every one is on membrane, sails need smaller wind range, more area to shape with ect. Horses for courses.

 

3di main on A32 should be fine if its guts are the right stuff, which it sounds like its not. All these membranes, fiberpaths, ices, 3di bla bla all srongly rely on the designer developing a good fibre layout of the right stuff. Bit like my skeleton not getting enough calcium, bones will all go bendy where the load is...

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@George, as a club racer, my 3Di main is definitely a better sail than I am a racer. But..... I justified the extra expense because of the longevity promises of the technology. My 3DLs are holding their shape well but the membrane is a weakness and is going to give out before the sails lose their shape. I was hoping with 3Di that the material would last as well as the shape and that I would have less problems with careless fingers/equipment being pushed through the sail.

 

On top of that, the sail was also a weapon when new. Even as a non grand prix sailor we were really able to get better performances and were punching above our weight, getting lots of enjoyment out of the boat. Which is what club racing is all about and initially I didn't regret a single cent I spent on the sail as I expected a few more season like that!

 

But this season it has not been such a weapon and our upwind performance is definitely not as good (I'm not blaming that all on the sail, but I think it has contributed). After sailing with the sail maker again, we've learnt a bit better how to trim to the new "shape" (by ignoring the less important bad shapes and trimming for the more important ones), but really we should not be chasing the sail shape in that way.

 

If the sail had kept its shape this season and 2 more, then I'd definitely be telling you all to go get 3Di even for your Optis!

 

But now I would advise not to buy 3Di unless you have deep deep pockets or you can see a similar sail on a similar boat that has lasted 3+ seasons and then you can ask for exactly the same thing. ie as CatsRule says - you need to get the design right as well as the right technology.

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@George, as a club racer, my 3Di main is definitely a better sail than I am a racer. But..... I justified the extra expense because of the longevity promises of the technology. My 3DLs are holding their shape well but the membrane is a weakness and is going to give out before the sails lose their shape. I was hoping with 3Di that the material would last as well as the shape and that I would have less problems with careless fingers/equipment being pushed through the sail.

 

On top of that, the sail was also a weapon when new. Even as a non grand prix sailor we were really able to get better performances and were punching above our weight, getting lots of enjoyment out of the boat. Which is what club racing is all about and initially I didn't regret a single cent I spent on the sail as I expected a few more season like that!

 

But this season it has not been such a weapon and our upwind performance is definitely not as good (I'm not blaming that all on the sail, but I think it has contributed). After sailing with the sail maker again, we've learnt a bit better how to trim to the new "shape" (by ignoring the less important bad shapes and trimming for the more important ones), but really we should not be chasing the sail shape in that way.

 

If the sail had kept its shape this season and 2 more, then I'd definitely be telling you all to go get 3Di even for your Optis!

 

But now I would advise not to buy 3Di unless you have deep deep pockets or you can see a similar sail on a similar boat that has lasted 3+ seasons and then you can ask for exactly the same thing. ie as CatsRule says - you need to get the design right as well as the right technology.

to set the record straight, i sell UK Sails here in the Philippines. was with Horizon Sails in CT when we developed the first Tape Drives. and no, i will not sell you sails. that said, on my J-35 i have a set of 2007 Tape Drives that i still use to this day as day sailing sails. i have newer X-Drives for racing, but i still use the good old Tape Drives from 2007 for everything else. so? want some "Grand Father of Sting Sails" that i have proven even in this tropical/wet weather that i live in can live a long life? talk to your a UK Sails rep nearby. Tape Drive is still the best bang for the buck "High Tech Club Racing Sail" you will ever gladly spend, not waist your money on.

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Agree and disagree with you there George, Tape Drive if it's designed, spec'ed and built by guys who know what they are doing is bomb proof, but like all other custom laminates if it's designed wrong, or spec'd wrong its pretty easy to screw up and see it blow apart like all the others do.

 

Bang for buck I think good old radial aramid is hard to beat. Less chance of the designer to screw the cloth up as they are working with a already designed and developed product, they just have to implement it the correct way. Dimension Polyant GPL LiteSkin and Carbon Sport LiteSkin is the munts nuts now for a lot of club racers. Seen existing GPL sails go on forever so looking forward to their increased longevity.

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Hell, we put 11000nm on a TapeDrive main that's already done 20k + and the only failure we've had was the head ring (the steel itself not the webbing) blowing up. Bombproof is right.

 

HW

 

 

@George, as a club racer, my 3Di main is definitely a better sail than I am a racer. But..... I justified the extra expense because of the longevity promises of the technology. My 3DLs are holding their shape well but the membrane is a weakness and is going to give out before the sails lose their shape. I was hoping with 3Di that the material would last as well as the shape and that I would have less problems with careless fingers/equipment being pushed through the sail.

 

On top of that, the sail was also a weapon when new. Even as a non grand prix sailor we were really able to get better performances and were punching above our weight, getting lots of enjoyment out of the boat. Which is what club racing is all about and initially I didn't regret a single cent I spent on the sail as I expected a few more season like that!

 

But this season it has not been such a weapon and our upwind performance is definitely not as good (I'm not blaming that all on the sail, but I think it has contributed). After sailing with the sail maker again, we've learnt a bit better how to trim to the new "shape" (by ignoring the less important bad shapes and trimming for the more important ones), but really we should not be chasing the sail shape in that way.

 

If the sail had kept its shape this season and 2 more, then I'd definitely be telling you all to go get 3Di even for your Optis!

 

But now I would advise not to buy 3Di unless you have deep deep pockets or you can see a similar sail on a similar boat that has lasted 3+ seasons and then you can ask for exactly the same thing. ie as CatsRule says - you need to get the design right as well as the right technology.

to set the record straight, i sell UK Sails here in the Philippines. was with Horizon Sails in CT when we developed the first Tape Drives. and no, i will not sell you sails. that said, on my J-35 i have a set of 2007 Tape Drives that i still use to this day as day sailing sails. i have newer X-Drives for racing, but i still use the good old Tape Drives from 2007 for everything else. so? want some "Grand Father of Sting Sails" that i have proven even in this tropical/wet weather that i live in can live a long life? talk to your a UK Sails rep nearby. Tape Drive is still the best bang for the buck "High Tech Club Racing Sail" you will ever gladly spend, not waist your money on.

 

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Agree and disagree with you there George, Tape Drive if it's designed, spec'ed and built by guys who know what they are doing is bomb proof, but like all other custom laminates if it's designed wrong, or spec'd wrong its pretty easy to screw up and see it blow apart like all the others do.

 

Bang for buck I think good old radial aramid is hard to beat. Less chance of the designer to screw the cloth up as they are working with a already designed and developed product, they just have to implement it the correct way. Dimension Polyant GPL LiteSkin and Carbon Sport LiteSkin is the munts nuts now for a lot of club racers. Seen existing GPL sails go on forever so looking forward to their increased longevity.

there is nothing like good Tri-Radials. my concern here are the stitching and the weak points they present. that is why we at Horizon Sails worked with Dr. Jerry Milgram of MIT and it was Milgram that came up with a simple but effective solution to seam failure. not NORTH at that shit called 3Days Late.

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That'd be the same Dr Milgram responsible for this design, I take it?

 

 

Cascade+1983.jpg

 

post-4718-095622100%201296224497_thumb.j

yup. an interesting boat to say the least. but his Tape Drive concept was in my opion, briliant. it is so simple and works. and is still working today. truly the Grandfather of String Sails.

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Agree and disagree with you there George, Tape Drive if it's designed, spec'ed and built by guys who know what they are doing is bomb proof, but like all other custom laminates if it's designed wrong, or spec'd wrong its pretty easy to screw up and see it blow apart like all the others do.

 

Bang for buck I think good old radial aramid is hard to beat. Less chance of the designer to screw the cloth up as they are working with a already designed and developed product, they just have to implement it the correct way. Dimension Polyant GPL LiteSkin and Carbon Sport LiteSkin is the munts nuts now for a lot of club racers. Seen existing GPL sails go on forever so looking forward to their increased longevity.

there is nothing like good Tri-Radials. my concern here are the stitching and the weak points they present. that is why we at Horizon Sails worked with Dr. Jerry Milgram of MIT and it was Milgram that came up with a simple but effective solution to seam failure. not NORTH at that shit called 3Days Late.

 

This is just soooooo wrong on many levels. Compared to crosscut sails, yes, a tri radial sail is superior because it more closely aligns the structural properties of the fabric with the loads. But they fail in that it's still inefficient to take a material with 4 axis (warp, fill & 2x 45) built as a rectangle, then chop it into smaller pieces and reassemble them into a large triangle. There is waste, only some of the true structural material is aligned correctly and even with glued seams, there are discontinuities in load transfer that will lead to failure. And the idea that roll goods have superior lamination because of the intense pressure applied at the nip is a fallacy. That only lasts for a split second and is gone. Time, temp and pressure are the three variables in lamination. As long as the glues are selected correctly for the method, you get a good result. Would you laminate any other part by just whacking it with a hammer?

 

A string sail is a giant leap beyond radials and 3Di an even greater leap. The competition all spent years bad mouthing 3DL while North built thousands of sails. They still keep harping on 3DL lamination even though only a small percentage of the 3DL sails built had any issue within their normal lifespan. After the negative approach failed, other sailmakers all magically discovered string sails were great but claim only they know how to do it right. Now the same story will repeat with 3Di. You keep flogging your 1980's technology and leave real sailmaking development to the big boys.

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Agree and disagree with you there George, Tape Drive if it's designed, spec'ed and built by guys who know what they are doing is bomb proof, but like all other custom laminates if it's designed wrong, or spec'd wrong its pretty easy to screw up and see it blow apart like all the others do.

 

Bang for buck I think good old radial aramid is hard to beat. Less chance of the designer to screw the cloth up as they are working with a already designed and developed product, they just have to implement it the correct way. Dimension Polyant GPL LiteSkin and Carbon Sport LiteSkin is the munts nuts now for a lot of club racers. Seen existing GPL sails go on forever so looking forward to their increased longevity.

there is nothing like good Tri-Radials. my concern here are the stitching and the weak points they present. that is why we at Horizon Sails worked with Dr. Jerry Milgram of MIT and it was Milgram that came up with a simple but effective solution to seam failure. not NORTH at that shit called 3Days Late.

This is just soooooo wrong on many levels. Compared to crosscut sails, yes, a tri radial sail is superior because it more closely aligns the structural properties of the fabric with the loads. But they fail in that it's still inefficient to take a material with 4 axis (warp, fill & 2x 45) built as a rectangle, then chop it into smaller pieces and reassemble them into a large triangle. There is waste, only some of the true structural material is aligned correctly and even with glued seams, there are discontinuities in load transfer that will lead to failure. And the idea that roll goods have superior lamination because of the intense pressure applied at the nip is a fallacy. That only lasts for a split second and is gone. Time, temp and pressure are the three variables in lamination. As long as the glues are selected correctly for the method, you get a good result. Would you laminate any other part by just whacking it with a hammer?

 

A string sail is a giant leap beyond radials and 3Di an even greater leap. The competition all spent years bad mouthing 3DL while North built thousands of sails. They still keep harping on 3DL lamination even though only a small percentage of the 3DL sails built had any issue within their normal lifespan. After the negative approach failed, other sailmakers all magically discovered string sails were great but claim only they know how to do it right. Now the same story will repeat with 3Di. You keep flogging your 1980's technology and leave real sailmaking development to the big boys.

If only it was that simple. Horses for courses..... Look at Contender Dinghies, crosscut dacron is winning... Beautifully stretchy to fit across a big wind range, might be old tech, but its still relevant. And what happens if somebody walks in and wants a sail for next week, hold on 2 minutes while I get your sail shipped from Nevada.... Or... Oh wait ill get the cloth in a get down on my knees and get building. 3di is great, its helped bring on a whole possibilty to sailing but slagging off pannelled sails against laminated sails like you did is a bit like saying bicycles are superceded, everyone get cars.... Have fun with that.

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My comment was that tri radial construction is not very good compared to membranes. Inefficient use of structural material, wasteful and labor intensive. I'm sick of hacks foisting ancient technology off as cutting edge and a better value when it's very rarely true.

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A string sail is a giant leap beyond radials and 3Di an even greater leap. The competition all spent years bad mouthing 3DL while North built thousands of sails. They still keep harping on 3DL lamination even though only a small percentage of the 3DL sails built had any issue within their normal lifespan. After the negative approach failed, other sailmakers all magically discovered string sails were great but claim only they know how to do it right. Now the same story will repeat with 3Di. You keep flogging your 1980's technology and leave real sailmaking development to the big boys.

 

 

Well I do and don't agree with this.

 

This appears to have been true for my 3DL jibs, but has definitely not been true for my 3Di main. Yes is sounds great that the sail is made in it's flying shape...... except for now that Norths have "fixed" my main with the recut it doesn't set in the flying shape. In order to fix the depth in the top of the main, they put in an extra tough batten so the head is dead flat unless it is blowing more than 10kn. To fix the stretch that occurred at the end of the partial 3rd and 4th battens, they put in longer stronger battens, so now the back half of the sail is dead flat and there is a distinct angle in the sail where the batten ends. Plus new stretches are already forming at the end of those battens.

 

So currently, my 3D moulded sail does not set in it's designed shape in under 10kn. Then because it is now a lot deeper than when first made, we start getting overbend creases if we try to take depth out in anything over 18kn. So yes, it flies in it's correct shape from 10kn to 18kn - which is a pretty narrow range for a main!

 

So while I think the concept is good, there appears to be lots of ways that a sail can be screw up even if it was built in a 3D mould.

 

Finally getting the sail maker out again next week to look at the main after the recut. However , I'm now pretty much of a mind that the sail is beyond repair. The recut has not helped and the whole point of 3D moulded sails made out of shape holding material is that they should not have to be recut! So it is just really a mater of will Norths admit as much and offer me a good deal on replacing it..... if they don't then I will feel royally screwed for significant money and will never ever ever buy a Norths sail again, no matter how much Iove my jibs or how much they tell me they make better small boat 3Ds now!

 

Stay tuned...

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My comment was that tri radial construction is not very good compared to membranes. Inefficient use of structural material, wasteful and labor intensive. I'm sick of hacks foisting ancient technology off as cutting edge and a better value when it's very rarely true.

there is no question that i am the "Hack" you are talking about. so let history stand. of the so called cutting edge of technology, which one of the process has been around the longest and still in use today?

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Finally getting the sail maker out again next week to look at the main after the recut. However , I'm now pretty much of a mind that the sail is beyond repair. The recut has not helped and the whole point of 3D moulded sails made out of shape holding material is that they should not have to be recut! So it is just really a mater of will Norths admit as much and offer me a good deal on replacing it..... if they don't then I will feel royally screwed for significant money and will never ever ever buy a Norths sail again, no matter how much Iove my jibs or how much they tell me they make better small boat 3Ds now!

 

Stay tuned...

If they don't offer, ask!

 

They can't read your mind so they don't know what it would take to make you a happy customer again. Let them know and give them a chance to meet your expectations.

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It would be nice to see profile pictures of the sail when it was new, before the recut, and after the recut.

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I would like to see that too, all the batten changes seem like a smoke show to me.

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Finally getting the sail maker out again next week to look at the main after the recut. However , I'm now pretty much of a mind that the sail is beyond repair. The recut has not helped and the whole point of 3D moulded sails made out of shape holding material is that they should not have to be recut! So it is just really a mater of will Norths admit as much and offer me a good deal on replacing it..... if they don't then I will feel royally screwed for significant money and will never ever ever buy a Norths sail again, no matter how much Iove my jibs or how much they tell me they make better small boat 3Ds now!

 

Stay tuned...

If they don't offer, ask!

 

They can't read your mind so they don't know what it would take to make you a happy customer again. Let them know and give them a chance to meet your expectations.

 

i agree. you are the customer and they need to please you. now the other side of the coin is possible. i have met some boat owners that should never have bought a boat. but this is not the case as i see it so far. so, keep them honest.

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Had a good sail with the sail maker. We are going to try for a bit more of a recut on the luff curve and to change out a few battens. He maintains that the worst of the wrinkles are from overbend that the luff curve adjustment will fix and that the dimples are just an issue of older 3Di.

 

I've certainly told them how this sail has been below my expectations (set high by my good experience with Norths 3DL, and their publicity over 3Di) and if I remain unhappy after the recut, I believe that they will offer me a good price to update with a new set of sails, apparently the latest 3Di is better for small boats and they say has fixed the dimpling at least.

 

But what I still don't understand, is it reasonable to expect a new main to go for 2 seasons without needing a luff reshape and new batten pockets and stiffer battens? If that is normal, then perhaps I shouldn't buy new 3Di and I'd be better off stepping back to 3DL or even buying cheaper tri radial sails that only last 2 seasons but cost half as much?

 

I've attached some pictures of the main when new below. The main was a real weapon for the first 18 months of it's life.

I won't put up any pictures of it now (at least not until it's been recut), as I don't want to feed the Norths-haters amd I don't need to be told it has bad shape - I can see that and the sail maker accepts that it's depth has moved aft and that it has dimples and wrinkles. The point we disagree on is Norths says this is normal for a 2 year old main. My expectation is 3 seasons of good shape from a racing sail, after which you start with the scissors to get a 4th or 5th season out of it. I'm getting the impression that opinions are mixed if that is reasonable or not.

 

DSC 3290 M

DSC 3309 X3 C

esprit super30 17 2015 L

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So I took the sail maker out today. Here is the summation:

 

The dimpling of the sail in some areas is a) mostly cosmetic; B) partially due to the fact that we have a big boat main on a small boat. Now they have a product that is better tailored to small boats, but my main was made with tapes designed for big boats. The effect of this was that in order to make the sail light enough it has thick and thin parts, which causes the dimples. The 3Di sails made now for small boats don't have this issue as they can use right sized tapes and the end sail is a more uniform thickness.

 

The depth at the top of the main was mostly due to overly soft top full battens. This was fine for when the sail was new, but needs to be a bit stiffer now.

 

The creases in front of the bottom two partial battens are due to some stretch in the sail, but also from a bit of over bend in the mast as we tried to flatten the top with its soft battens.

 

So they are going to replace top battens and remake the front of the partial batten pockets, perhaps putting in slightly longer battens.

 

So that's not much of a recut.... will report back to say how much of an effect it has.

Translation:

 

Our technology wasn't yet developed for a boat of your size.

 

So, in order to make the sale, we needed to convince you that you were making the right choice and it would rock! (we hoped). Now that it didn't, and your check cleared, we are in an awkward spot. You are not a high dollar program boat, but you might be friends of someone who is. So..

 

We'll suggest recut, blame it on materials, suggest your boat isn't set up correctly, throw 2 or 3 other variables into the mix and hope you go away.

 

Yeah, you need longer battens. We never considered that for a boat of YOUR size. "Sorry, our batten designer, for the top ones, was kinda new at the time, and really only knew how to properly size top battens for 70 foot foiling catamarans in SF Bay in early to mid July." Sorry.

 

That's kind of the North Sails I have known since the late 1970's.

 

Only got my business once. Fool me once...

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So I took the sail maker out today. Here is the summation:

 

The dimpling of the sail in some areas is a) mostly cosmetic; B) partially due to the fact that we have a big boat main on a small boat. Now they have a product that is better tailored to small boats, but my main was made with tapes designed for big boats. The effect of this was that in order to make the sail light enough it has thick and thin parts, which causes the dimples. The 3Di sails made now for small boats don't have this issue as they can use right sized tapes and the end sail is a more uniform thickness.

 

The depth at the top of the main was mostly due to overly soft top full battens. This was fine for when the sail was new, but needs to be a bit stiffer now.

 

The creases in front of the bottom two partial battens are due to some stretch in the sail, but also from a bit of over bend in the mast as we tried to flatten the top with its soft battens.

 

So they are going to replace top battens and remake the front of the partial batten pockets, perhaps putting in slightly longer battens.

 

So that's not much of a recut.... will report back to say how much of an effect it has.

Translation:

 

Our technology wasn't yet developed for a boat of your size.

 

So, in order to make the sale, we needed to convince you that you were making the right choice and it would rock! (we hoped). Now that it didn't, and your check cleared, we are in an awkward spot. You are not a high dollar program boat, but you might be friends of someone who is. So..

 

We'll suggest recut, blame it on materials, suggest your boat isn't set up correctly, throw 2 or 3 other variables into the mix and hope you go away.

 

Yeah, you need longer battens. We never considered that for a boat of YOUR size. "Sorry, our batten designer, for the top ones, was kinda new at the time, and really only knew how to properly size top battens for 70 foot foiling catamarans in SF Bay in early to mid July." Sorry.

 

That's kind of the North Sails I have known since the late 1970's.

 

Only got my business once. Fool me once...

 

oh yea that sounds like NS (No Sencerety) Sails.

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Well - not really wanting this to be a let's bash Norths thread. They have given me a lot of time and some really great sails. They are still giving me lots of time and trying to address my dissatisfaction: by working on both the sail and my expectations. Now I'm dubious if my expectations are that unrealistic and hence hence I'm seeking other opinions, but other than this sail my experience with Norths has been good.

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Well - not really wanting this to be a let's bash Norths thread. They have given me a lot of time and some really great sails. They are still giving me lots of time and trying to address my dissatisfaction: by working on both the sail and my expectations. Now I'm dubious if my expectations are that unrealistic and hence hence I'm seeking other opinions, but other than this sail my experience with Norths has been good.

Well - not really wanting this to be a let's bash Norths thread. They have given me a lot of time and some really great sails. They are still giving me lots of time and trying to address my dissatisfaction: by working on both the sail and my expectations. Now I'm dubious if my expectations are that unrealistic and hence hence I'm seeking other opinions, but other than this sail my experience with Norths has been good.

that is fair. keep your options open.

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If you want to stay at pointy end of fleet, yes, recuts are a great idea. We have done our older mainsail a few times depending on venue. Less curve in more wind and stiff AF battens. We will be adding curve back for a big regatta this year with expected lighter winds.

 

3di will still stretch, shrink ect. It a fabric subject to dynamic loading. The dimpling is a bigger issue than luff curve in my eye.

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Those images are when it is new???
Already pretty draft aft in all 3 photos.

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You can't tell anything about the sail shape from a picture taken from off the boat!

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Our sailmaker has come back to us and it turns out whilst looking at "fixing" the shape, he's also been in discussions with the 3Di group in Nevada researching the issue. Nevada have just come back and agreed that the sail shape is "not the look we are chasing!!". Not only that, they have a good explanation for what is going on!

 

Our sail is 3Di 760, which was made with 50:50 Aramid:Dyneema tapes for the core, plus a final layer of Dyneema tapes to form the protective cover over the sail. It turns out that for *some* of the smaller, low DPI sails made this way, the shrinkage in the Dyneema is "out muscling" the aramid fibres, so instead of the aramid providing most of the tensile strength, the dyneema was dominating the shape and there was not enough load put into the sail to make the dyneema creep back to a length that would allow the aramid to take over. This was made worse because the outer tapes are just laid down in horizontal stripes as basically chaff protection, so they were not even in a flying shape, but were able to greatly affect the sail shape. I love the strength of dyneema as a rope and can certainly understand it being too strong for use as a cover!

 

Norths now build their small boat, low DPI 3Di sails differently. They now use 70:30 Aramid:Dyneema for the core flying shape tapes and they no longer use dyneema for the outer tapes, instead using either a polyester for longevity (3Di 760M) or nothing (3Di raw) if you are really grand prix and are buying new sails most seasons anyway!

 

Thus Norths have agreed that my sail is one of those affected by this problem and we've worked out an excellent agreement for us to get a new 3Di 760M main sail! Norths are very confident it will match my expectations of shape holding as they have put extra focus on smaller 3Di for the last few years. I gave them the option of falling back to 3DL if they didn't think they had it cracked as I don't want to be back to the same spot in 2 years, but they are confident that with 3Di and that it will meet our expectations.

 

As I've said several times in this thread, I've always been very happy with the time Norths has invested in sailing with us and making sure we are happy with their products. It took a little time for us to be happy on this issue, but while we said we were unhappy, Norths kept on it until we were happy! Thanks to those here that gave me the feedback to stay unhappy for a while :)

 

cheers

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hmmmm,,,really? well,,,ok. let them put a new one on. it might be cheaper for them to replace at the outragious prices they charge everyone. that whole explanation now in second hand is still rocket sience, phd material to baffle the public with. "if you can not dazzle them with brillance, baffle them with bullshit."

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@Greorge well their description of the problem well matches both the dimpling you can see on the sail and the changes they have made to their manufacturing process. So for me it is at least plausible if not actually confirmed. If it is BS then I'll be back in 2018 to say so.

 

As for the price, well there is nothing like the feeling of hard earned money well spent. I've mostly had that with Norths and time will tell on this main.

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i guess it is nice to see them hold up thier end. personally, i have no respect for a company that had to lie to the world about thier product when 3DL was introduced and then conitnue to do so after they were sued and proven in court to have lied.

 

there are very good sailmakers out there who have answered the call to the String Sail Arms Race and have put out very good products and have not had to lie.

 

oh well, that is just me.

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Sounds like a good solution Greg, nice job persevering on this one. Ask them when they went to this new blending, just curious what vintage my main is, I took delivery of it in November 2014 I think. One of the advantages I have noticed with sticking with one sailmaker, for me North, is that the time you spend dialing in those good sail designs for your boat translate to each new sail. They listened when I had my first main built ( I wanted it flatter in the top sections ) and nailed the design, my next one carried that forward and we tweaked it a little more. I guess you get the same with any good sailmaker using CAD processes.

 

Anxious to hear about the new rag when you get it.

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@Greorge well their description of the problem well matches both the dimpling you can see on the sail and the changes they have made to their manufacturing process. So for me it is at least plausible if not actually confirmed. If it is BS then I'll be back in 2018 to say so.

 

As for the price, well there is nothing like the feeling of hard earned money well spent. I've mostly had that with Norths and time will tell on this main.

 

It sounds plausible to me as well. Of course it could be BS but it seems like North owned up to a flaw and came up with a solution that makes the customer happy again (provisionally)

 

Two good years out of the said and then a discount on a replacement is a fair deal.

 

I am curious why you keep referring to North Sails as Norths. I can understand referring to the sails as Norths but not the loft itself. Is it an Australian thing?

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"You can't tell anything about the sail shape from a picture taken from off the boat!"

 

wrong.

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Soho, Norths (i don't know if that's an Australian thing, doesn't everybody shorten the name to that? ) said my all was one of the last made 50:50 and it was made in late 2013.

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Great, thanks Greg, my main was December 2013, "Mainsail 3Di 760M (Aramid/Dyneema) 16,800 Dpi " but I do not see anywhere where we discussed the blend %s. Anyhow, it looks fine still, in fact I was sailing on the weekend and it looks great....

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@Soho, My main was 10500 Dpi and yours is 16800 Dpi. I understand that the problem was only with the low Dpi sails, so you are probably good regardless of ratio. If it still looks fine, then you are indeed good and I'm looking forward to being able to say the same in 2019!

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16 month progress report on the replacement 3Di main:   It still looks as good as the day it was first put up with no dimpling, no strange shape.   So far so good!

At the 12 months, we were happy enough that we ordered a 3Di Jib, which we just took delivery of at it was a weapon on it's first outing last weekend!  Attached is picture of both sails - OK not from a great angle to tell about the shape, but they look good from below and I'll get some photos when I'm not busy having fun sailing!

IMG_0717.JPG

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On 10/23/2017 at 11:45 PM, gregwilkins said:

16 month progress report on the replacement 3Di main:   It still looks as good as the day it was first put up with no dimpling, no strange shape.   So far so good!

At the 12 months, we were happy enough that we ordered a 3Di Jib, which we just took delivery of at it was a weapon on it's first outing last weekend!  Attached is picture of both sails - OK not from a great angle to tell about the shape, but they look good from below and I'll get some photos when I'm not busy having fun sailing!

IMG_0717.JPG

Looks like 3Di Raw.
We have a boat int he area that got a new 3Di Race (I think that is what he said) Kevlar/Dynema blend, golden in color. It looked good at the dock but I have not seen it out on the boat sailing.

material-base.jpg

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Two year progress report!   

The main is still great and showing no signs of stretch or shape loss.  Hardly any wear at all!   We  just had a  good sailor come onto the boat, look up and the first thing they said (unprompted) was "nice main!".   The 2 year old main and the 6 month old 3Di jib just won us the PHS Performance racing division two passage over races (16nm and 25nm) and we were up against a lot of good 40 footers and even an older TP52. 

The 3Di light jib we got 6 months ago is just brilliant and one of the best things we've ever put on the boat!  It kept to boat moving well in 5-8 with good height, it was perfect in 8-14 and sailable without too much loss of height in the odd spell over 14kn.

Our next up wind sails will definitely be 3Di, but it doesn't look like we'll have need of a new racing main for a few years to come!

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Glad to hear you're happy. Perhaps this is because the original sail was bought in 2016, but you never said if the 3Di was raw or endurance. Did they not offer endurance back then?  Is the new one raw or endurance? 

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