Archived

This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.

winchfodder

Why is ISAF spending so much on a new TV series? Are there better ways

Recommended Posts

Even though discussed within other threads I think the whole issue of ISAF spending millions on a new TV show needs to be debated separately.

 

Should the ISAF income from the IOC be spent on making expensive TV shows rather than promoting the sport in other ways?

 

There are already independent sailing TV shows. So why compete?

 

Why on earth do they need to invest in an expensive in-house TV production studio? Surely there are better ways of using their income created by the hard work of individual sailors and the national member authorities worldwide?

 

I have not heard the arguments from Gary Jobson on why ISAF is doing this, but feel that it looks like ISAF has too much money to spend and are running out of ideas of ways to spending it other than flying the suits around the world and putting them up in expensive hotels plus an overblown administration in the UK.

 

The whole reason and functioning of ISAF needs to be debated. It could be that the indvidual MNAs and the class associations could manage the IOC funds more effectively and efficiently to promote the sport and still meet collectively (and virtually with the Internet) to look at a more strategic overview.

 

Maybe it is time to call it a day and shutdown most of the operation.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

A more relevant question is why ISAF needs to run this silly World Cup series. The two are linked.

 

The reason for the TV show is simple, ISAF thinks they need this sort of deliverable for their sponsors.

 

And now after this debacle, what sponsor in their right mind is going to want to touch ISAF?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

World Cup? The Olympics are only once every 4 years. What do all the officials do in between to "stay sharp"?? Given that arse about face thinking ...

 

Would guess that it because the OAs of it's Olympic Class events are yacht clubs and NMAs with little competency in marketing and media production and wildly differing styles of delivery. A centralized marketing and media function actually makes some sense.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

It's exactly like regatta advertising, Mercedes wants their name on something or no money, so ads in local sailing mags that preach to the choir.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

World Cup? The Olympics are only once every 4 years. What do all the officials do in between to "stay sharp"?? Given that arse about face thinking ...

 

Would guess that it because the OAs of it's Olympic Class events are yacht clubs and NMAs with little competency in marketing and media production and wildly differing styles of delivery. A centralized marketing and media function actually makes some sense.

 

The World Cup has destroyed class autonomy. ISAF has created classes to support their marketing vision out of whole cloth, and then disposed of them almost as quickly. That makes less than zero marketing sense.

 

Anyone who wants to sail in the Olympics must sail in the World Cup events, therefore ISAF sets their schedule.

 

If someone wants to sail in the Olympics now, they have to understand they are just actors in a sports reality TV show. The likes of the Brits and a few others actually make a decent living doing this, but for most countries, sailors end up broke and in debt up to their eyeballs chasing 4 minutes of TV glory.

 

And you think this makes sense?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Clearly not as I've argued some of those points already. But then again those are different issues.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The World Cup has destroyed class autonomy. ISAF has created classes to support their marketing vision out of whole cloth, and then disposed of them almost as quickly.

Classes plural? The Elliott might match that description. Can't think of another one.

 

 

Anyone who wants to sail in the Olympics must sail in the World Cup events, therefore ISAF sets their schedule.

 

 

Is that so? How then do you explain the absence of leading sailors from most nations at Melbourne.

 

If someone wants to sail in the Olympics now, they have to understand they are just actors in a sports reality TV show. The likes of the Brits and a few others actually make a decent living doing this, but for most countries, sailors end up broke and in debt up to their eyeballs chasing 4 minutes of TV glory.

 

And you think this makes sense?

It makes sense to those who choose to do it. Nobody has put a gun to their head. An Olympic medal is a lifetime ticket to ride in professional sailing.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I,ll be blunt...

 

What ISAF retard thought it a good idea to instigate a world regatta to justify tv program?... Or visa versa

 

fFS! There are a gazzilion media and tv organizations that ISAF could have approached to take up this event for free ( or if they were smart they could have sold the rights!)

 

And if the media and tv world are nkt interested then that tells ISAFnthat both retard ideas are a dud.

 

Isaf should stick to their knitting!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

The World Cup has destroyed class autonomy. ISAF has created classes to support their marketing vision out of whole cloth, and then disposed of them almost as quickly.

Classes plural? The Elliott might match that description. Can't think of another one.

 

 

Anyone who wants to sail in the Olympics must sail in the World Cup events, therefore ISAF sets their schedule.

 

 

Is that so? How then do you explain the absence of leading sailors from most nations at Melbourne.

 

If someone wants to sail in the Olympics now, they have to understand they are just actors in a sports reality TV show. The likes of the Brits and a few others actually make a decent living doing this, but for most countries, sailors end up broke and in debt up to their eyeballs chasing 4 minutes of TV glory.

 

And you think this makes sense?

It makes sense to those who choose to do it. Nobody has put a gun to their head. An Olympic medal is a lifetime ticket to ride in professional sailing.

 

 

So shoot me for saying "classes" instead of "a class".

 

The lack of participation in Melbourne is easy to understand. Most of the country qualification spots are taken now, it costs a shit ton of time and money to go there for the vast majority of the world, and everyone has figured out ISAF's little game.

 

That an Olympic medal gives someone a resume to then make money as a paid sailor for a long time is obvious. But why does the sport have to centralize everything from the top down for that purpose?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Any reports back from Gary Jobsons TV roadshow in London much appreciated. That's if you get past the security.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

1) Is it really millions?

 

2) I haven't done an exhaustive check, but on a random sample every Olympic sport I looked at has a YouTube channel. It's just one of those things federations do. Partly to remain in the games, it's true. Olympic money pays for things that are done to stay an Olympic sport.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

1) Is it really millions?

 

2) I haven't done an exhaustive check, but on a random sample every Olympic sport I looked at has a YouTube channel. It's just one of those things federations do. Partly to remain in the games, it's true. Olympic money pays for things that are done to stay an Olympic sport.

1) I made up the figure to emphasise the situation.

 

Guesswork say setting up a studio and production faculty in Southampton $100k. Prouction of monthly shows on a rolling contact say $30k per show = $360k per annum. Staff say $200k. That would be about $660k for the first year. Can't see Matt Sheahan leaving YW unless three year contact and they no doubt would like to run until 2020 game's. Hence say $2.5m.

 

Only guessing. I am sure there are industry professionals on here who can give a clearer picture (Clean?)

 

How about someone asks Gary and Matt this afternoon

 

 

2. A YouTube feed using existing material from regattas and some interviews is one thing and easily possible with reasonable budget. Setting up a worldwide TV show with editors and a in-house production facility is a whole different ball game.

 

Is it something ISAF needs to do, has been asked to do by the MNAs. I do not think so. Whose idea was it. What are the budgets. ISAF minutes should be accessible and ISAF should be accountable. Maybe Mr Gladwell can do the sleuthing for us. Or Clean.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The budget for this year appears to be GBP650k

 

IMHO the NMAs and OAs with responsibility for ISAF sanctioned events haven't delivered anything even remotely acceptable on a consistent basis. Running sailing events? Plenty of depth to tap into. Doing the media well? Last on the list of things they have the talent on hand for and the first budget line to be cut locally if there are issues with budget overrun during delivery.

 

Most if not all of the sailing events that have passable media look to have it centralized.

 

That does leave the question, what;s the point of the World Series? Particularly when the events get used as test events for organisation innovation all the time.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Keep an eye on who gets the contracts.

Surely it is an APP/Sunset and Vine gravy train.

 

But who at ISAF agreed to spend £650k per annum for TV (my $ guestomate too low!!).

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The budget for this year appears to be GBP650k

 

IMHO the NMAs and OAs with responsibility for ISAF sanctioned events haven't delivered anything even remotely acceptable on a consistent basis. Running sailing events? Plenty of depth to tap into. Doing the media well? Last on the list of things they have the talent on hand for and the first budget line to be cut locally if there are issues with budget overrun during delivery.

 

Most if not all of the sailing events that have passable media look to have it centralized.

 

That does leave the question, what;s the point of the World Series? Particularly when the events get used as test events for organisation innovation all the time.

 

I'm not sure what this means.

 

The two biggest events in the sport are the AC and the Volvo, neither of which ISAF has much control over or much hand in, and ISAF has been desperate for a 'signature event' for the better part of a decade. So they shoveled about 5 million euro over 8 years to turn the mostly locally run OCR events into first the Sailing Grand Prix and then the World Cup. With that job accomplished, they sat back and wondered why the media didn't give a shit. Local mainstream media rarely pays any attention beyond the most cursery story, and even most of the sailing media ignores the WC unless there's some important qualifier for one of their own national stars.

 

So with their Grand Plan executed and no one taking the bait, they sat back and tried to figure out how to fix the problem.

Step 1 was hiring Mal Page, who brings medal winning credibility and lots of contacts to the mix.

Step 2 was creating WSTV, because if no one was going to cover it, they'd do it themselves.

Step 3 is hiring 'old friends' of Gary and the other sketchballs on the committee to do the TV work. Kickbacks, anyone?

Step 4 is hiring 'TV Distributors' who will spend a month writing a press release about WSTV on the verge of reaching 50 billion televisions.

Step 5 is hiring prominent sailing media personalities for commentary and 'editorial' work to guarantee external coverage while simultaneously quelling independent critique. It's awfully hard to criticize someone who is writing you a big monthly check.

Step 6 is closing WSTV down in a few years after blowing 3 or 4 million dollars with nothing to show for it.

 

It's not at all unprecedented for a sports league to own their own TV production and sell it onward to TV networks. Most major US leagues do this.

 

It's frankly not a bad idea at all if you have something people want to watch.

 

The problem is that World Cup sailing format will never, ever be something that any appreciable number of people will want to watch. Little, mostly quite old-looking boats don't look good on camera, courses are far too big for constant action, and things like Virtual Eye have shown zero ability to keep an audience engaged. The "Big" personalities you need to create an audience are extremely rare, and the production people they are hiring have proven over and over to be just horrible at showing the more compelling side of the athletes.

 

Until they fix the format issues and acknowledge that they are FUCKING AWFUL at communicating to the media and the public, failure is really the only possible outcome, in my opinion.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

They are doing this for the European, Aussie and Kiwi market. Those areas are big on sailing.

The US Tele market is pretty much a dead market for sailing unless there is carnage or potential carnage. That is the nature of the US media.

I can watch reruns of high school football but try to find reruns of the Volvo or AC. So much for the Every SPorts Network....

 

Just look at F1 in the US, nobody really cares to watch a parade which is what most F1 races turn into. Just like sailing is a parade....................a slow speed parade.

Hell, the Rose Parade on New Years Day is more exciting than sailing is to most in the US. I think the issue is most people can go faster than the fastest Multi or big boat when driving the freeway or a winding mountain road. If sailing cannot top that, nobody cares about it.

 

Volvo footage in the southern ocean is exciting, the rest gets pretty boring.

The AC was pretty exciting. I want to see racing with the Doctor blowing again!!!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

They are doing this for the European, Aussie and Kiwi market. Those areas are big on sailing.

 

 

Kiwis love their sailing but there are more people in a medium-sized US city than there are in all of NZ.

 

Europe, no.

Australia, no.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

 

The budget for this year appears to be GBP650k

 

IMHO the NMAs and OAs with responsibility for ISAF sanctioned events haven't delivered anything even remotely acceptable on a consistent basis. Running sailing events? Plenty of depth to tap into. Doing the media well? Last on the list of things they have the talent on hand for and the first budget line to be cut locally if there are issues with budget overrun during delivery.

 

Most if not all of the sailing events that have passable media look to have it centralized.

 

That does leave the question, what;s the point of the World Series? Particularly when the events get used as test events for organisation innovation all the time.

I'm not sure what this means.

 

The two biggest events in the sport are the AC and the Volvo, neither of which ISAF has much control over or much hand in, and ISAF has been desperate for a 'signature event' for the better part of a decade. So they shoveled about 5 million euro over 8 years to turn the mostly locally run OCR events into first the Sailing Grand Prix and then the World Cup. With that job accomplished, they sat back and wondered why the media didn't give a shit. Local mainstream media rarely pays any attention beyond the most cursery story, and even most of the sailing media ignores the WC unless there's some important qualifier for one of their own national stars.

 

So with their Grand Plan executed and no one taking the bait, they sat back and tried to figure out how to fix the problem.

Step 1 was hiring Mal Page, who brings medal winning credibility and lots of contacts to the mix.

Step 2 was creating WSTV, because if no one was going to cover it, they'd do it themselves.

Step 3 is hiring 'old friends' of Gary and the other sketchballs on the committee to do the TV work. Kickbacks, anyone?

Step 4 is hiring 'TV Distributors' who will spend a month writing a press release about WSTV on the verge of reaching 50 billion televisions.

Step 5 is hiring prominent sailing media personalities for commentary and 'editorial' work to guarantee external coverage while simultaneously quelling independent critique. It's awfully hard to criticize someone who is writing you a big monthly check.

Step 6 is closing WSTV down in a few years after blowing 3 or 4 million dollars with nothing to show for it.

 

It's not at all unprecedented for a sports league to own their own TV production and sell it onward to TV networks. Most major US leagues do this.

 

It's frankly not a bad idea at all if you have something people want to watch.

 

The problem is that World Cup sailing format will never, ever be something that any appreciable number of people will want to watch. Little, mostly quite old-looking boats don't look good on camera, courses are far too big for constant action, and things like Virtual Eye have shown zero ability to keep an audience engaged. The "Big" personalities you need to create an audience are extremely rare, and the production people they are hiring have proven over and over to be just horrible at showing the more compelling side of the athletes.

 

Until they fix the format issues and acknowledge that they are FUCKING AWFUL at communicating to the media and the public, failure is really the only possible outcome, in my opinion.

Dinghy sailing at any level is about participation. There is hardly anything that is in the least bit interesting to watch. Especially live coverage except 10 minutes of a race downwind between Sir Ben and some Dutchman who dared to challenge the legend and failed.

 

The only interesting part could be technique edited highlights for the cognoscenti. Nothing for the general public.

 

This has always been the case. So why flog a dead horse by wasting millions on trying to have a dinghy show on TV. Nobody will transmit unless paid. Then nobody will watch anyway. No sponsor will bother to invest. The only people to support will be dodgy governments like Malaysia, Abu Dhabi, Russia, China and Oman who want to sanitise their questionable practises.

 

ISAF members know this full well but still have decided to go on with a totally wasteful plan that will profit some media operator and their minions.

 

As Clean says the whole operation will collapse in four or so years with upwards of $5m wasted that could have been far better spent following the avowed and written aims of ISAF to promote competitive sailing around the world.

 

The whole goddammed plan is a despicable waste of money and we are all powerless to stop it.

 

I for one will be out racing my Laser on Sunday and will try and use the time and concentration on the water to forget about how angry this whole mess makes me.

 

Please Clean and Gladwell keep on the trail and pursue those responsible to the bitter end.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

The budget for this year appears to be GBP650k

 

IMHO the NMAs and OAs with responsibility for ISAF sanctioned events haven't delivered anything even remotely acceptable on a consistent basis. Running sailing events? Plenty of depth to tap into. Doing the media well? Last on the list of things they have the talent on hand for and the first budget line to be cut locally if there are issues with budget overrun during delivery.

 

Most if not all of the sailing events that have passable media look to have it centralized.

 

That does leave the question, what;s the point of the World Series? Particularly when the events get used as test events for organisation innovation all the time.

 

I'm not sure what this means.

 

The two biggest events in the sport are the AC and the Volvo, neither of which ISAF has much control over or much hand in, and ISAF has been desperate for a 'signature event' for the better part of a decade. So they shoveled about 5 million euro over 8 years to turn the mostly locally run OCR events into first the Sailing Grand Prix and then the World Cup. With that job accomplished, they sat back and wondered why the media didn't give a shit. Local mainstream media rarely pays any attention beyond the most cursery story, and even most of the sailing media ignores the WC unless there's some important qualifier for one of their own national stars.

 

So with their Grand Plan executed and no one taking the bait, they sat back and tried to figure out how to fix the problem.

Step 1 was hiring Mal Page, who brings medal winning credibility and lots of contacts to the mix.

Step 2 was creating WSTV, because if no one was going to cover it, they'd do it themselves.

Step 3 is hiring 'old friends' of Gary and the other sketchballs on the committee to do the TV work. Kickbacks, anyone?

Step 4 is hiring 'TV Distributors' who will spend a month writing a press release about WSTV on the verge of reaching 50 billion televisions.

Step 5 is hiring prominent sailing media personalities for commentary and 'editorial' work to guarantee external coverage while simultaneously quelling independent critique. It's awfully hard to criticize someone who is writing you a big monthly check.

Step 6 is closing WSTV down in a few years after blowing 3 or 4 million dollars with nothing to show for it.

 

It's not at all unprecedented for a sports league to own their own TV production and sell it onward to TV networks. Most major US leagues do this.

 

It's frankly not a bad idea at all if you have something people want to watch.

 

The problem is that World Cup sailing format will never, ever be something that any appreciable number of people will want to watch. Little, mostly quite old-looking boats don't look good on camera, courses are far too big for constant action, and things like Virtual Eye have shown zero ability to keep an audience engaged. The "Big" personalities you need to create an audience are extremely rare, and the production people they are hiring have proven over and over to be just horrible at showing the more compelling side of the athletes.

 

Until they fix the format issues and acknowledge that they are FUCKING AWFUL at communicating to the media and the public, failure is really the only possible outcome, in my opinion.

thats how i see it too.

 

The IFAF sales and marketing team have no idea about how to market a sport and how to sell sailing to a few countries!... Let alone the world!

 

Everybody knows that watching sailing on TV is as boring as bat shit .... Unless it involves danger like the last AC and the excitement of these cat crashing, imploding, ...

Also Sailing has no personalities that spice up the sport.

 

To be fair it is full of "yes men" that bore the fuck out of every one.

 

Where's the Cayards, conners, Blackallers etc....

 

If they want a exciting event, put some fast high tech boats on a race course with no rules and allow ramming etc and first to finish wims $500,000 GBP.

 

That would get TV companies interest and money!.... A bit like the indian premier league cricket

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

They are doing this for the European, Aussie and Kiwi market. Those areas are big on sailing.

 

 

Kiwis love their sailing but there are more people in a medium-sized US city than there are in all of NZ.

 

Europe, no.

Australia, no.

 

 

Except in most medium sized US cities there is about 1 person who likes sailing. I'm talking about cities not the big megalopolis'

 

 

Have you seen the new www.sailing.org site?

 

when you view the splash page, it looks surprisingly like www.ussailing.org in it's layout.

 

How much money are they monkeys wasting??

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Everybody knows that watching sailing on TV is as boring as bat shit .... Unless it involves danger like the last AC and the excitement of these cat crashing, imploding, ...

Also Sailing has no personalities that spice up the sport.

 

BS! I'd rather watch Star sailors league sailing in the drifter for hours or Sailor Girl with iPhone reporting on Comanche going up the Derwent than those monthly 30 min(!?) 'stylish' clips by World Sailing. All they will provide will be old news by the time they go on air! Shirley Robertson / Mainsail on CNN is bad enough.

If you know the game, it will be exciting to you, no matter what's the pace of the race. Crashing and imploding is for the proletarians on the couch with the beercan in their hand. But, they will switch to different channel as soon as the first ad will come up.

As to the personalities - if you're an insider of the sport, there are plenty of them around, just don't expect that they'll produce any tabloid stuff for the common folk.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The women's match racing at the London Olympics was amazing to watch, some of the most exciting sailing I have watched. Non sailing friends enjoyed it too. Watching people beat each other with tactics is exciting, boatspeed races are boring.

 

No Aussie TV station will pick up a dinghy racing segment. My guess is the entire thing is aimed towards internet viewing, and to provide decent quality bits to slip into sports new coverage.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

1st they came for the national Olympic Classes events, turned them into nothings in service of their International ranking system.

Then they came for the ORC events, turned into invitationals for the top ranked international sailors only, last nail in many national level participants.

Now they are trying to create some godawful TV mess that will further reduce what participation is left.

Thank god they are looking out for the classes' health.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Thats exactly what i meant clean.

 

Ac and volvo both have centralised media ops. ES the same. M32 i presume the same. None leave it to the regatta/stop over organisers.

 

Given there ambitions for the WCup, right or wrong, a centralised media op is hardly a suprise.

 

Whether they'll do a good job is another question.

 

+ in terms if establishing WCup not forgetting that they pissed off many of the established Olympic class organisers so much they went off and set up EUROSAF.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The budget for this year appears to be GBP650k

 

 

Where does that figure come from and what does it cover? Are we sure it isn't the whole circus rather than the TV element?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

1st they came for the national Olympic Classes events, turned them into nothings in service of their International ranking system.

Outside the Laser, what were these previously thriving national Olympic class events? Most sailors in most countries vote with their feet to keep away from Olympic classes and it has been that way for decades.

 

 

Then they came for the ORC events, turned into invitationals for the top ranked international sailors only, last nail in many national level participants.

Really? What are these invitational ORC events?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Would guess that it because the OAs of it's Olympic Class events are yacht clubs and NMAs with little competency in marketing and media production and wildly differing styles of delivery. A centralized marketing and media function actually makes some sense.

Yes. An Olympic sport needs International events in the Olympic classes : International in at least the sense that sailors from many countries attend. There are only a handful of MNAs capable of running that level of event and most of them are Anglophone. That's not acceptable today.

 

Devolving to MNAs is a curious suggestion given that it's the same crowd throwing rocks and ISAF and at MNAs.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

1st they came for the national Olympic Classes events, turned them into nothings in service of their International ranking system.

Outside the Laser, what were these previously thriving national Olympic class events? Most sailors in most countries vote with their feet to keep away from Olympic classes and it has been that way for decades.

Then they came for the ORC events, turned into invitationals for the top ranked international sailors only, last nail in many national level participants.

Really? What are these invitational ORC events?

Ok,so irony is lost on those in defence of a successful franchise.

I may not like the Laser as a 5 ring class but it did stimulate large Mitty-esque fleets initially, and the 49er (and 29er) had their time also. Finns used to get over 50 boats for trials and events like CORK, MOCR, nationals, NAs, etc. I can even recall over 20 470s at atime, and boards were popular, sometimes Tornados did well, Europes drew a crowd for a while, Stars had reasonable fleets; all this in NA waters, yes decades ago.

But NAYRU, in its wisdom, put the emphasis on international rankings (following the IYRU lead) and that combined with falling class participation, killed what was once a decent NA circuit that allowed homegrown talent to develop without a sponsor. The conversion of World championships (a circuit of its own in Europe) into invitational events for the top ranked only, combined with the medal race, means that you don't have the same chances to compete against the top sailors and thereby improve, unless you get selected. Smaller fields display better on tv and can be run easier on shorter inshore courses, but destroy the traditional test of large open water fleets.

If thats what you like then you are well served. And thats why you are right, most of the thriving classes are non Olympic because they avoid these bs choices which discourage participation.

But you know all this and are simply demanding a gratuitous explanation because poms, aussies, and other teams with strong national support have done well under the new rules. Congratulations.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

 

The budget for this year appears to be GBP650k

 

Where does that figure come from and what does it cover? Are we sure it isn't the whole circus rather than the TV element?

the other thread

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

The budget for this year appears to be GBP650k

 

IMHO the NMAs and OAs with responsibility for ISAF sanctioned events haven't delivered anything even remotely acceptable on a consistent basis. Running sailing events? Plenty of depth to tap into. Doing the media well? Last on the list of things they have the talent on hand for and the first budget line to be cut locally if there are issues with budget overrun during delivery.

 

Most if not all of the sailing events that have passable media look to have it centralized.

 

That does leave the question, what;s the point of the World Series? Particularly when the events get used as test events for organisation innovation all the time.

 

The two biggest events in the sport are the AC and the Volvo, neither of which ISAF has much control over or much hand in, and ISAF has been desperate for a 'signature event' for the better part of a decade. So they shoveled about 5 million euro over 8 years to turn the mostly locally run OCR events into first the Sailing Grand Prix and then the World Cup. With that job accomplished, they sat back and wondered why the media didn't give a shit. Local mainstream media rarely pays any attention beyond the most cursery CURSORY story, and even most of the sailing media ignores the WC unless there's some important qualifier for one of their own national stars.

 

 

 

 

Fixed it for ya ;)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

And thats why you are right, most of the thriving classes are non Olympic because they avoid these bs choices which discourage participation.

Boats built worldwide in 2014 for International two handed Trapeze classes (from latest ISAF reports)

420 - 379

49er (& FX) - 131

470 - 127

29er - 80

RS500 - 28

Flying Junior - 20-25

505 - 17

FD - 17

Fireball - 16

International 14 - Est 15

Laser 2 - 0

 

So, tell me again, which are the thriving classes?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

And Worlds turnouts (Boats/Nationans/Continents)

 

420 - 111/26/6

49er - 80/28/6

49er FX - 55/25/6

470 - 74/30/6

29er - 101/14/4

RS500 - 36/6/2

Flying Junior - 57/8/3 (2013, not held 2014)

505 - 154/14/5

FD - 40/11/3

Fireball - 21/7/5

International 14 - 67/7/4 (2013, not held 2014)

Laser 2 - 16/3/1(2013, not held 2014)

 

A single snapshot of worlds turnouts can be misleading of course, the 505 worlds in 2014 were in Germany and had about double the usual entry, while the Fireball worlds were in Thailand and had about a third.

 

But anyway, tell me again which are the thriving classes?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

And thats why you are right, most of the thriving classes are non Olympic because they avoid these bs choices which discourage participation.

Boats built worldwide in 2014 for International two handed Trapeze classes (from latest ISAF reports)

420 - 379

49er (& FX) - 131

470 - 127

29er - 80

RS500 - 28

Flying Junior - 20-25

505 - 17

FD - 17

Fireball - 16

International 14 - Est 15

Laser 2 - 0

 

So, tell me again, which are the thriving classes?

 

 

hard to know unless you pull out the institutional purchasers, which bought most of the 420s, for instance.

 

Where are the multihulls in that list of 'two-handed, trapeze'?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The world's most thriving dinghy class (in terms of having biggest fleets at national/continental/world championship events) is probably the Finn. Two-handed trapeze is probably the F-18.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Institutional purchasers are yet purchasers.

 

I could only be bothered to do two handed monohulls for the last year. Enough to make the point I think. If you want you can go through every damn report for every class for the last 5 years and average out all the numbers, it would be useful, because the relative popularity of keelboats to unballasted boats would probably surprise a lot who think every country is like their own.

 

I must admit I was astonished when I did this exercise just how much more popular the Olympic boats and their feeder classes are than the others. I wasn't expecting such a dramatic difference. High performance two handed monohulls seem to have plummeted in popularity in recent years in the UK, maybe its the same elsewhere, and only the Olympics are keeping high performance dinghies alive?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Institutional purchasers are yet purchasers.

 

I could only be bothered to do two handed monohulls for the last year. Enough to make the point I think. If you want you can go through every damn report for every class for the last 5 years and average out all the numbers, it would be useful, because the relative popularity of keelboats to unballasted boats would probably surprise a lot who think every country is like their own.

 

I must admit I was astonished when I did this exercise just how much more popular the Olympic boats and their feeder classes are than the others. I wasn't expecting such a dramatic difference. High performance two handed monohulls seem to have plummeted in popularity in recent years in the UK, maybe its the same elsewhere, and only the Olympics are keeping high performance dinghies alive?

 

How many of the two-handed monohull deserters went to single or doublehanded multis? Hard to even ask the question until you know a little about that.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Even allowing for the surge in Solo and Phantom sailing that's 2 sailors into 1 nationally in the UK.

 

With the level of competition teams buy a new boat every year int eh Olympic classes. Not so in other fleets. That makes a huge difference.

 

You need to take the last 5 years, throw out the worst and best and average the rest before judging numbers at Worlds as indicative.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Last time I checked, when the NA sailors were last doing well in 5 rings so were antipodeans and english sailors, what changed is the NA dropped out, coincidentally with the demise of our own circuits for Olympic classes. Causality or correlation, you decide, but I think its both. Not whining, just saying, maybe the european selection system works well for those on the circuit, not so well for others.

In a similar vein, during a downturn for dinghy participation, subsidized classes do the best? Shocked shocked. And please hold the discussion of what constitutes a subsidy and just use the economic definition, thanks.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The world's most thriving dinghy class (in terms of having biggest fleets at national/continental/world championship events) is probably the Finn. Two-handed trapeze is probably the F-18.

 

Most popular dingy classses...

 

Singlehanded

 

Laser

 

Laser radial

 

 

Dry sailed (2/3/4 handed) etchells, flying fifteen, 505?

 

 

Multihull hobie 16?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

The budget for this year appears to be GBP650k

 

Where does that figure come from and what does it cover? Are we sure it isn't the whole circus rather than the TV element?

the 2013 ISAF annual report noted $600k so $650k is probably a bit light for 2015/16

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Boats built worldwide in 2014 for International two handed Trapeze classes (from latest ISAF reports)

420 - 379

49er (& FX) - 131

470 - 127

29er - 80

RS500 - 28

Flying Junior - 20-25

505 - 17

FD - 17

Fireball - 16

International 14 - Est 15

Laser 2 - 0

 

So, tell me again, which are the thriving classes?

 

I am suprised how well 420 class is doing. 379 boats vs. only 80 29ers. Someone tried to convince me a few months ago that 420's are so last century.. ;)

P.S. For US readers - that's International 420 http://www.420sailing.org, not your Club 420 http://www.club420.org

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

But anyway, tell me again which are the thriving classes?

 

Not ones with a trapeze, that's a long-term trend.

 

I believe RS shipped about as many Aeros in 2015 as all your trapeze list added together.

 

Not really sure what this has to do with the subject of this thread anyway.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Last time I checked, when the NA sailors were last doing well in 5 rings so were antipodeans and english sailors, what changed is the NA dropped out, coincidentally with the demise of our own circuits for Olympic classes. Causality or correlation, you decide, but I think its both. Not whining, just saying, maybe the european selection system works well for those on the circuit, not so well for others.

 

 

Once upon a time the best sailor in class X and country Y went to the Olympics. That time is long gone. GBR, for example, has won medals in the Star when the class barely exists in the UK. It's a decade since I even saw a Star. The only reason top-level British sailors sailed the Star was because they were after Olympic medals and to get the competition they had to travel. The same is true for all Olympic classes, even the Laser; to get top competition you have to travel. I don't think this is anything particularly to do with the organisation previously known as ISAF and it's far from unique to sailing, it's the same in other sports.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Also, time was when Olympians were normal people with jobs, just better sailors than average. Now that they're full time professionals the gap between Olympians at the front and average club hacks at back of the fleet has grown, and most people don't like getting mashed week in, week out.

 

Talking to a guy who tried a 49er when they first came out, which was about the time lottery funding kicked in here. Good sailor, but he found that the guys who were out practising every day were that much faster, especially in marginal planing conditions.

 

49er nats are smaller than RS800, Int14 and Cherub. Smaller than the Cherub nats!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

If you believe that dinghy or small boat sailing is key to having healthy, growing national and international racing then across the board class participation numbers are important. If you believe that all that matters is for Olympic classes to stay healthy (200 countries x 1 entrant/country theoretically yields 200 boat fleets in a perfect world for some, though how we pick that 1 boat is a question) then having each country rely on international ranking only works well enough I guess. IMHO for a nation to succeed in dinghy racing there needs to be a pyramid of classes culminating in both Olympic and nonOlympic world entries.

So I can't tell you what to think, or which works best for your country, but I do think that Canada, the US, and Mexico have not been well served in the past 25 years under the current selection criteria and regatta systems. YMMV, not sure why kiwis, aussies, or poms have anything to complain about but if they think that defending IYRU's system serves their national interest so be it. There has been a major investment in outreach to countries that had not been participants in Olympic sailing as part of justifying sailing presence in the Games, I would have to say the results have been less than stellar. And in the process some key national circuits and events lost out, which I think has damaged participation levels in some countries and classes.

Is this the full story? Of course not but it is a major contributing factor. The levels of participation in ILYA are another good yardstick for non Oly #s, interest in development classes like Moths and 14s and A cats or LACC is another, so are offshore keelboat #s. The fact that as many new FDs were built last year as 505s is perhaps an outlier, perhaps an indication of 505s need to prioritize cheaper builds. 505s are a good parallel for no Oly #s as they elected to stay non Oly years ago but they tend to draw from a few countries only.

Why the decline in trap classes? Probably aligns with the desire for simplicity, easier to surf than sail if you live in the right spot, might as well move away from the YCs to the surf spots. Access to the water seems to get harder not easier, promotion of community based sailing could be the best hope for the sport, etc.,. Should we be happy and content that heavily subsidized Oly class build numbers stay up? If those boats are life span limited then no, building new 49ers, 470s, and Lasers annually is not necessarily a good thing, particularly given the level of subsidy. Should we be pleased that the IYRU is picking and abandoning winners again like in the 70s? No, seems like a sign of desperation or ineptitude. Some stability is needed for fostering growth and development, some progression (with consequent casualties) also. and lastly, if 400 Dragons show up in Monaco or Garda does that mean the world is ok? No idea but the obsession with SMODs has always seemed misguided to me if not corrupt. If Lasers weren't Olympic would Kirby and McClaren be fighting over the spoils, would a Persian even bother to invest in it if it wasn't a cash cow?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Factoids

 

The olympics is not the pinnacle of sailing.

 

The world champs are.

 

The ONLY reason sailors, countries, and 'national sailing governing bodies" push the olympics is because of the fact that most of the funding ( that each nations governing body recieves) is tagged with olympic medal priority.

 

For example NZL,s main funder is Sport NZ and High Perfromance sport NZ. They tag all their funding for olympics and as such Yachting NZ ( the controlling body) spemds most of its time and moneynon a few rich olympic sailors while the club and fleets system stagnates?

 

The same applies to most other countries.

 

The Olympic is over rated, over funded, and creating rich indivdusls while the grass roots of the sport suffers.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Factoids

The olympics is not the pinnacle of sailing.

The world champs are.

Depends who you talk to, I think. I have seen plenty of interviews with Olympians who say that the one chance in four years of the Olympics piles on the pressure way more than at an annual world champs. But then I'm not an Olympian.

 

And yes, the push towards entertainment is not something I' personally a huge fan of. If the Olympics didn't already exist, I'm not sure anybody would invent it now.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Factoids

 

The olympics is not the pinnacle of sailing.

 

The world champs are.

 

 

Stuff and nonsense. And I've sailed in World Championships & know several world champions and Olympic medallists. The input of effort and talent needed to win most Worlds doesn't approach that needed for an Olympic medal today.

 

It's all very well saying we'd like more government/lottery money going into grassroots sailing and I can't comment on how the systems in other countries work but as far as the UK goes 1. the sports eligible for such funding is a list more or less identical to Olympic sports 2. the funding level is related to medal achievement in the last cycle and 3. most of the money is fenced to "elite sport" and the sport of sailing has zero say in that.

So you might as well complain abut the weather; the level of this funding and the proportion allocated to Olympic sailing is outside the sport's control.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
I do think that Canada, the US, and Mexico have not been well served in the past 25 years under the current selection criteria and regatta systems.

 

The selection system is entirely a national matter. Nothing to do with World Sailing. The way the Brits do it, which seems to work fairly well, wouldn't even be legal in the USA and we abandoned the way the USA does it a few decades ago as it tended to result in transparently selected losers.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Much olympic/high perfromance funsing is ring fenced and can't be used to fund the rest od the sport.

 

NAs there for look to claim 3 other sources of funding from what i can see. First by claiming to represent the sport to government agencies. Second by establishing a revenue stream from certifying training. Finally by subvention from affiliated clubs.

 

The training issue got particularly accute here in ireland when the ISA started inventing certification requirements dor this that and the other so that they could then invent the required training course and take money for it.

 

The key thing is i think to recognise that WS does not actually represent the whole sport. They represent the discapline of Olympic Sailing.

 

Well all intuitively know that a sport that focuses on just olympic sailing and it's youth filtering function is a smaller sport. A much smaller sport.

 

There are things that Olympic sailing does, sucj as youth sailing, that are too small in them selves to sustain sailing numbers and in some cases are poisonous. Thise need to be giarded against.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The key thing is i think to recognise that WS does not actually represent the whole sport. They represent the discapline of Olympic Sailing.

In that case they spend a remarkable amount of time at their annual meetings discussing things they aren't interested in.

 

One of the more revealing documents I have seen in recent years was the RYA (UK National authority) internal phone list. Now, OK the RYA has a much wider remit than "sailing only" National Authorities, but as someone who had thought they were reasonably clued up about the administration was done I was amazed by how few of their staff had a job that was related to elite level sailing.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

How many people are in the legal department?

No idea, I just glanced at it, I don't recall any details.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Lots of talkey talkey but no meaningful budget assigned to anything but Olympic sailing from the look of it

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

I do think that Canada, the US, and Mexico have not been well served in the past 25 years under the current selection criteria and regatta systems.

 

The selection system is entirely a national matter. Nothing to do with World Sailing. The way the Brits do it, which seems to work fairly well, wouldn't even be legal in the USA and we abandoned the way the USA does it a few decades ago as it tended to result in transparently selected losers.

 

Weird, its like you are trying to misunderstand what I have written. Your system is your system, ours is ours, what's your point? My understanding of the Us system is that it is highly dependent on IYRU rankings, as is a country's selection for the Games, and these rankings largely depend on Whirled Cup performance. As is team selection, without which qualifying is not going to happen nowadays. Therefore the Whirled system has everything to do with funding, selection, and qualifying, not sure what you are claiming otherwise. Whirled system is set up to encourage international participation which reduces the advantages for a large country or region with a large talent base. That it has worked well for the Euros and antipodeans is not too surprising. It was also supposed to encourage traditional nonsailing nations to do more of it, equity and outreach, good for the Games PR, not sure how much of that we have seen. That you are happy is evident, congratulations. That NAYRU brought much of this on themselves by being overly clever and self-serving at different stages is also obvious, therefore one criticizes one's MNA for shoddy performance. What are you struggling with here?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

What are you struggling with here?

 

The connection with the subject of this thread.

 

However I'm done with it. Carry on with the archaisms you clearly find amusing.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

From Mr C's front page it seems that the ISAF sailing series is not too good.

 

No surprise there then.

 

Olympic style sailing is hardly TV viewing for more than some highlights. Without the excitement of kiteboarding (ISAF are on the wrong side of that dispute) and without offshore multihulls, IMOCA Open 60's or foiling cats and moths or sailing superyachts there is not much to show of interest to sailors or the public.

 

ISAF have been sold a pup. They are no doubt stuck in a contract with Sunset & Vine/APP for at least one or two years, so we can see several millions of IOC monies wasted which would have been better distributed to Member Authorities to promote youth sailing.

 

There is nothing we can do on SA about that.

 

So how about the Member Authorities start the rebellion against this total waste of precious resources.

 

If you are a member of one why not write in and ask the question.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Olympic style sailing is hardly TV viewing for more than some highlights. Without the excitement of kiteboarding (ISAF are on the wrong side of that dispute) and without offshore multihulls, IMOCA Open 60's or foiling cats and moths or sailing superyachts there is not much to show of interest to sailors or the public.

 

 

To sailors? I found whole-race coverage of Weymouth 2012 pretty interesting viewing. As far as the public goes, plenty around here watched sections and a surprising number of non-sailors of my acquaintance knew at least something of what was going on. General public interest is mostly predetermined by having national sailors able to win medals.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

From Mr C's front page it seems that the ISAF sailing series is not too good.

 

No surprise there then.

 

Olympic style sailing is hardly TV viewing for more than some highlights. Without the excitement of kiteboarding (ISAF are on the wrong side of that dispute) and without offshore multihulls, IMOCA Open 60's or foiling cats and moths or sailing superyachts there is not much to show of interest to sailors or the public.

 

ISAF have been sold a pup. They are no doubt stuck in a contract with Sunset & Vine/APP for at least one or two years, so we can see several millions of IOC monies wasted which would have been better distributed to Member Authorities to promote youth sailing.

 

There is nothing we can do on SA about that.

 

So how about the Member Authorities start the rebellion against this total waste of precious resources.

 

If you are a member of one why not write in and ask the question.

So how's that going to work? It's the Ex Cmte that makes these decisions. A MNA would have to get some sort of resolution through the Council first. Then consider that Jobson is the VP of Media and Marketing. Jobson works for NBC, who pays a ton of money to the IOC, who then pays ISAF. So how exactly is complaining to US Failing about this going to change anything? You think they are going to challenge Jobson?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

Everybody knows that watching sailing on TV is as boring as bat shit .... Unless it involves danger like the last AC and the excitement of these cat crashing, imploding, ...

Also Sailing has no personalities that spice up the sport.

 

BS! I'd rather watch Star sailors league sailing in the drifter for hours or Sailor Girl with iPhone reporting on Comanche going up the Derwent than those monthly 30 min(!?) 'stylish' clips by World Sailing. All they will provide will be old news by the time they go on air! Shirley Robertson / Mainsail on CNN is bad enough.

If you know the game, it will be exciting to you, no matter what's the pace of the race. Crashing and imploding is for the proletarians on the couch with the beercan in their hand. But, they will switch to different channel as soon as the first ad will come up.

As to the personalities - if you're an insider of the sport, there are plenty of them around, just don't expect that they'll produce any tabloid stuff for the common folk.

 

Thanks OJFD x

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

No excuses for dragging up by his thread again.

 

The latest (second) installment of the isaf TV series is now being aired.

 

Totally waste of millions of dollars of IOC money that should be going to grow competitive sailing.

 

The programme seems to be more about offshore pro sailing than Olympic style events and duplicates the existing sunset and vine Mainsail programme paid for by Rolex.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites