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    • UnderDawg

      A Few Simple Rules   05/22/2017

      Sailing Anarchy is a very lightly moderated site. This is by design, to afford a more free atmosphere for discussion. There are plenty of sailing forums you can go to where swearing isn't allowed, confrontation is squelched and, and you can have a moderator finger-wag at you for your attitude. SA tries to avoid that and allow for more adult behavior without moderators editing your posts and whacking knuckles with rulers. We don't have a long list of published "thou shalt nots" either, and this is by design. Too many absolute rules paints us into too many corners. So check the Terms of Service - there IS language there about certain types of behavior that is not permitted. We interpret that lightly and permit a lot of latitude, but we DO reserve the right to take action when something is too extreme to tolerate (too racist, graphic, violent, misogynistic, etc.). Yes, that is subjective, but it allows us discretion. Avoiding a laundry list of rules allows for freedom; don't abuse it. However there ARE a few basic rules that will earn you a suspension, and apparently a brief refresher is in order. 1) Allegations of pedophilia - there is no tolerance for this. So if you make allegations, jokes, innuendo or suggestions about child molestation, child pornography, abuse or inappropriate behavior with minors etc. about someone on this board you will get a time out. This is pretty much automatic; this behavior can have real world effect and is not acceptable. Obviously the subject is not banned when discussion of it is apropos, e.g. talking about an item in the news for instance. But allegations or references directed at or about another poster is verboten. 2) Outing people - providing real world identifiable information about users on the forums who prefer to remain anonymous. Yes, some of us post with our real names - not a problem to use them. However many do NOT, and if you find out someone's name keep it to yourself, first or last. This also goes for other identifying information too - employer information etc. You don't need too many pieces of data to figure out who someone really is these days. Depending on severity you might get anything from a scolding to a suspension - so don't do it. I know it can be confusing sometimes for newcomers, as SA has been around almost twenty years and there are some people that throw their real names around and their current Display Name may not match the name they have out in the public. But if in doubt, you don't want to accidentally out some one so use caution, even if it's a personal friend of yours in real life. 3) Posting While Suspended - If you've earned a timeout (these are fairly rare and hard to get), please observe the suspension. If you create a new account (a "Sock Puppet") and return to the forums to post with it before your suspension is up you WILL get more time added to your original suspension and lose your Socks. This behavior may result a permanent ban, since it shows you have zero respect for the few rules we have and the moderating team that is tasked with supporting them. Check the Terms of Service you agreed to; they apply to the individual agreeing, not the account you created, so don't try to Sea Lawyer us if you get caught. Just don't do it. Those are the three that will almost certainly get you into some trouble. IF YOU SEE SOMEONE DO ONE OF THESE THINGS, please do the following: Refrain from quoting the offending text, it makes the thread cleanup a pain in the rear Press the Report button; it is by far the best way to notify Admins as we will get e-mails. Calling out for Admins in the middle of threads, sending us PM's, etc. - there is no guarantee we will get those in a timely fashion. There are multiple Moderators in multiple time zones around the world, and anyone one of us can handle the Report and all of us will be notified about it. But if you PM one Mod directly and he's off line, the problem will get dealt with much more slowly. Other behaviors that you might want to think twice before doing include: Intentionally disrupting threads and discussions repeatedly. Off topic/content free trolling in threads to disrupt dialog Stalking users around the forums with the intent to disrupt content and discussion Repeated posting of overly graphic or scatological porn content. There are plenty web sites for you to get your freak on, don't do it here. And a brief note to Newbies... No, we will not ban people or censor them for dropping F-bombs on you, using foul language, etc. so please don't report it when one of our members gives you a greeting you may find shocking. We do our best not to censor content here and playing swearword police is not in our job descriptions. Sailing Anarchy is more like a bar than a classroom, so handle it like you would meeting someone a little coarse - don't look for the teacher. Thanks.
Doug Lord

14' Stunt S9 Foiling Cat

467 posts in this topic

From The Foiling Week-designed by Michele Petrucci

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No-I just think the boat is great and that this Foiling Week supplied video should be seen.

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Completely ignoring the fact that there is already a thread on the S9 with 86 contributions that was started back in August of last year.

 

http://forums.sailinganarchy.com/index.php?showtopic=167654

 

But when did Doug's insecurity ever get in the way of accepting established order?

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Completely ignoring the fact that there is already a thread on the S9 with 86 contributions that was started back in August of last year.

 

http://forums.sailinganarchy.com/index.php?showtopic=167654

 

But when did Doug's insecurity ever get in the way of accepting established order?

 

Doug hogging the bathtub at the home again? At least he gets out and sails his model boat once or twice a year - makes you look like a real layabout. Just one posed photo in how many years?

 

Hopefully they will realize you are not taking your medication again. You have to be the biggest fraud on Anarchy

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Reefer Dave... the man-child with adolescent spooge on his chin attempts to present himself as a player.

 

How very quaint.

 

So, you and dougie doing the two handed dutch rudder and you found time to type a weak entry with your shrunken personality. That's so nice.

 

.

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From The Foiling Week-designed by Michele Petrucci

Looks cool. Thanks for the link.

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Doug,

 

Along with the video, it would have been be fair to mention remarks from "JOKING" who was at the foiling week and reported the S9 was incredibly slow when she was able to sail, and when she did not sail it was because she has some issues with the ultra complex double wand system.

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As I understand it the problems, such as they were, have been corrected. And I think it is ridiculous to characterize a boat with two wands, one on each hull as "ultra complex".

Wands on trimaran foilers have been around almost 20 years. Michele's system is the first with the wand pivoted ahead of the foil and I'm not convinced that's better than a midship wand but it sure seems to work well. I think he has done an outstanding job on these little boats!

 

PS-"joking" also said (back in August) that the Waszp would be out in a "couple of months"-which just goes to show that shit happens in new boat development. I'm sure that AMAC and Michele both want to ensure they have a first class product-regardless of how long that may take or what problems may surface.

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Well... I still havent sen a video of a foiling jibe, tack, mark rounding or anything else. Or a speed comparison to any other foiling boat. Any old bloke with a 20 year old moth can achieve what is shown in that video, in a 20 year old moth and spending half the money. I still think this design has not proven anything special but I do not say it wont! does anyone know what their control systems consist of? Do they still have fixed rudder angles? What about the mainfoils?

 

PS:

Oh and even if the Waszp is late to the party there already are videos showing jibing and tacking.... doesn't look super stable through them but it's a start

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Well... I still havent sen a video of a foiling jibe, tack, mark rounding or anything else. Or a speed comparison to any other foiling boat. Any old bloke with a 20 year old moth can achieve what is shown in that video, in a 20 year old moth and spending half the money. I still think this design has not proven anything special but I do not say it wont! does anyone know what their control systems consist of? Do they still have fixed rudder angles? What about the mainfoils?

 

PS:

Oh and even if the Waszp is late to the party there already are videos showing jibing and tacking.... doesn't look super stable through them but it's a start

 

ops .

https://www.facebook.com/UCPA.Bombannes/videos/848143408626060/

look at 2:40

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Well sone more videos of manouvres would be nice. The are quite a few now around :)

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Well... I still havent sen a video of a foiling jibe, tack, mark rounding or anything else. Or a speed comparison to any other foiling boat. Any old bloke with a 20 year old moth can achieve what is shown in that video, in a 20 year old moth and spending half the money. I still think this design has not proven anything special but I do not say it wont! does anyone know what their control systems consist of? Do they still have fixed rudder angles? What about the mainfoils?

 

PS:

Oh and even if the Waszp is late to the party there already are videos showing jibing and tacking.... doesn't look super stable through them but it's a start

 

ops .

https://www.facebook.com/UCPA.Bombannes/videos/848143408626060/

look at 2:40

 

 

Well I wouldnt consider that a foiling manouver + it's from a reaching start

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You know other catamarans that make this maneuver?

I'd like to have some comparisons to evaluate ability S9.

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Sorry ,I meant "beachcat " .

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Enjoy:

 

 

 

Great video-thanks, Tom!

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I actually have only ever seen one video of a beachcat completing a foiling jibe... and it was by professionals under perfect conditions. But that's not the point... my point is that the added complexity of the system doesnt seem to lead to any improvements over any other foil configuration. Its not the fastest nor does it seem to allow you to do anything that isn't already possible on many other platforms. I think that a slow but super stable-manouverable boat would be a blast to sail. I just don't see it yet from this concept.

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I actually have only ever seen one video of a beachcat completing a foiling jibe... and it was by professionals under perfect conditions. But that's not the point... my point is that the added complexity of the system doesnt seem to lead to any improvements over any other foil configuration. Its not the fastest nor does it seem to allow you to do anything that isn't already possible on many other platforms. I think that a slow but super stable-manouverable boat would be a blast to sail. I just don't see it yet from this concept.

What range of wind-wave conditions have other platforms? What rating SCHSR? How much do they cost ? They can sail in foil mode and floating mode? (Without foils). They are easily disassembled? Everone can use these? They can be launched in water easily? They can fly upwind (what wind they need) ?? Which VMG upwind?

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Sailboarder looked very comfortable. Will we see foiling in crease sailboarding or is foiling kiteboarding Where the action is ?

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Foils on sail and kite boards are fairly simple, affordable and easy to deal with in most situations. That's likely where most foiling growth will remain in the near future.

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I actually have only ever seen one video of a beachcat completing a foiling jibe... and it was by professionals under perfect conditions. But that's not the point... my point is that the added complexity of the system doesnt seem to lead to any improvements over any other foil configuration. Its not the fastest nor does it seem to allow you to do anything that isn't already possible on many other platforms. I think that a slow but super stable-manouverable boat would be a blast to sail. I just don't see it yet from this concept.

What range of wind-wave conditions have other platforms? What rating SCHSR? How much do they cost ? They can sail in foil mode and floating mode? (Without foils). They are easily disassembled? Everone can use these? They can be launched in water easily? They can fly upwind (what wind they need) ?? Which VMG upwind?

 

What is the Stunts SCHRS as a matter of interest?....as I couldn't find it on the ratings list.......

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When are the US boats' crate supposed to hit Houston?

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I remember 7 february, but better ask to Charlie.

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About 1.133

An F18 is 1.000 and a single handed F16 is 1.009, a Hobie 16 with Spinny on is 1.114 which is considered faster, either this foiling thingee may just not be as fast as we think or thats one soft handicap, mmmm not too sure which way to think as on paper it should smoke all of the boats listed.

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Look the other rating fly cat . Not only floating cat .

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Does it have a system so you can use the windward foil to produce downforce, or less lift?

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yes, the 2 foils can independently control, their lift control systems are separate .

P.S. When I designed S9 , the concept of "speed" was in last place in my list of features of this boat, despite this the S9 have speed between 10 and 24 knots, it seems to me fast ,

all of us here know that A class on foils has 26-27 knots max speed, upwind WMG no good, no good in strong wind, no good with wave, these are the problems of all current foilers excluding Moth (this have other problems),the S9 has been designed to solve these problems but also many many many more (in particular the safety), all this has reduced slightly its speed, in fact we are designing a kit (fast and furious) to improve performance.

the last tests were done with 24 knots wind and 1.5 m waves, so very extreme conditions even for cat foilers more large,

so I think the reality described by some here is very different.

there is also who saw an S9 in Punta Ala flying without crew for about 3 km, with 16 knots wind and 1m wave, but nobody writes this.

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Anything you can share with us regarding the kit? Sounds cool.

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yes, the 2 foils can independently control, their lift control systems are separate .

P.S. When I designed S9 , the concept of "speed" was in last place in my list of features of this boat, despite this the S9 have speed between 10 and 24 knots, it seems to me fast ,

all of us here know that A class on foils has 26-27 knots max speed, upwind WMG no good, no good in strong wind, no good with wave, these are the problems of all current foilers excluding Moth (this have other problems),the S9 has been designed to solve these problems but also many many many more (in particular the safety), all this has reduced slightly its speed, in fact we are designing a kit (fast and furious) to improve performance.

the last tests were done with 24 knots wind and 1.5 m waves, so very extreme conditions even for cat foilers more large,

so I think the reality described by some here is very different.

there is also who saw an S9 in Punta Ala flying without crew for about 3 km, with 16 knots wind and 1m wave, but nobody writes this.

Is it possible to see a video comparing upwind vmg to any other boat, especiallly a new a cat. And is it possible to see a video of downwind foiling in 20 knots? Just unedited footage would be good, even if shot with a phone. maybe add a speedpuck to it?

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There are few videos in youtube channel 12piedi.

this down was done by Swiss friends, with gusty medium winds , look at 00:54,

We do not have video as a comparison with other cat, but if you look carefully you can see a really good angle to the wind by direction wave

 

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The kit fast and furious will be tested throughout the summer, probably will be available in 2017, we need a long time to get the best result but with the price contained.

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ita 16

 

Your A Class speed figures are now a bit out of date, particularly your comments about upwind VMG and strong winds

 

But as you suggest, speed is irrelevant. People do not understand that foiling is not about speed as such, but more about the sensation of literally flying over the water in near silence. For instance, i would rather sail a foiling A even if it were slower than a non foiling one, simply for the sensation. You get used to the speed pretty quickly, but the sensation never seems to go away.

 

And that is why speed is irrelevant with the Stunt S9. All that matters is whether it foils well (which it seems to do) and that it is well behaved. Then you can simply have fun. Anybody trying to knock it on the basis of speed simply doesn't understand and you shouldn't worry about them as they are not going to be your target market anyway.

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Ok!!! Past late January.

 

Anything from Houston? Or Houston, we have a problem? :-)

 

Cheers,

 

Sorry! It is one of my favorite movies :=)

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Hi all,

 

Ok!! It has been a week.

 

Any sailing on this boat?

 

Cheers,

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Slight delay for Customs clearance - the boats arrived at the shipping facility today in Houston, in perfect condition.

They were moved home, thanks to my friends Joe, Marvin, Nikki and Larry for their help. Long day. Some assembly tomorrow.

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Pretty cool day. We arrived at the warehouse at the very same time as the container.

 

What's in the box?

 

9pvt02.jpg

 

Unlike Se7en, we got to see. Everything was well secured and in perfect shape.

 

ic71h2.jpg

 

Bellissimo! Fit and finish are really nice.

 

sm6bv6.jpg

 

The aluminum trailers are gorgeous, too. One person could handle it pretty well with the boat installed.

 

11rccbp.jpg

 

Move 'em out, head 'em up. Let's go play in Houston rush hour traffic. Katy Freeway here we come!

 

2j3pv0k.jpg

 

 

All in all, a long but fun day. Can't wait to see it in action.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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A realy good organization , thanks Charlie and Red .

Have a fun

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Sweeeeeeet!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

I know we are getting an Arctic blast now, however I can't wait for a sailing report.

 

Cheers,

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They are works of art. Performance art. The potato quality of my phone pics does not do them justice.

 

I'm an hour from the lake and not getting to see the fiddly bits go together because we've got prior plans all weekend. Rats.

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Anarchists are lucky,

 

If DNA, EXploder, Nacra, Hobie Cat use to create a new thread each time they deliver a pair of boats,

 

SA forum will look like an UPS office.

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If they were boats new to the market and in this case, entirely new to this hemisphere, it wouldn't bother me a bit.

 

My apologies if I got your panties in a bunch. Just having some fun.

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New project ,must go on ,

S6

post-48865-0-19112200-1455908653_thumb.jpg

post-48865-0-42600600-1455908677_thumb.jpg

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Two crew? Will the wands be mounted forward like the S9? Great work, Michele-good luck!

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Yes . About 16 feet . Probably with 3 sails ,same style S9 .

Hard work ;)

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The S6 will probably be the best single hander, almost all of the best Whisper piccies seem to be only 1 crew, power to weight ratio would also say the 16fter is just about right for the heavy weight Uni guy. Certainly the F16 is a better boat sailed single handed but then I'm biased.

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Wayne, I think the S6 will be great as well but you're wrong about the Whisper-its designed as a doublehander and all the pictures I've seen except one show two people on the boat. The cool thing about most boats with dual independent wands is that they can sail with less weight than their designed crew weight with no problems-there's even the story of the crew falling off the S9 and the boat continuing for a couple of kilometers(or miles?) with no one on board. The S6 will be a great boat but there is no need to knock the Whisper to make that point......

 

https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=1642595389361526

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mwkdZQzDgek#t=104

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Yess Dough , that story is true, S9 fly fast and stable 3.5 km without crew, many have seen this, is passed in front of the beach that hosted the World Championship A class in Punta Ala, but no one talks about this here on SA, mah! !

However, the S6 will be designed also to compete in the F16 class without foils.

I also have a new project, S1, will be ready in October,

It is 15 feet, 2/3 sails, S9 style, but without foils, floating just for the moment, is born from a request of the British colleagues, designed exclusively for the UK market.

A lot of work and custom , many news , will be a very exciting year, and I hope that the results are very funny for holders of all series S.

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Yess Dough , that story is true, S9 fly fast and stable 3.5 km without crew, many have seen this, is passed in front of the beach that hosted the World Championship A class in Punta Ala, but no one talks about this here on SA, mah! !

 

That sounds like a great safety feature, both for the abandoned pilot and whoever the thing ploughs into. Any ideas about putting a kill switch on it?

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The link did not work.

 

Written report (not too long) and video please, pretty please :)

 

Thanks,

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Moovie available in 20 min on youtube 12piedi channel

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Michele, is the S6 a single hander or 2 up?

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Michele, is the S6 a single hander or 2 up?

Hi Tim . Its 2up.

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Michele, is the S6 a single hander or 2 up?

In early April it will arrive a S9 even there in your land.

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Sweet. Sustained high teens with some bursts into the 20s. Kicking myself for not coming up to watch.

 

Any warning before you wiped out?

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Michele, have you tried sailing with the windward main foil raised?

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Thanks for the video's ,Charlie-especially the last one-wow!

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This is the real fun that I like .

Thanks Charlie

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Michele, have you tried sailing with the windward main foil raised?

Only one time . But not fly upwind , and one foil do not support the total load . Better not do this .

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Are you guys running shockcord on the rudders to reduce movement..... This looks really unsafe for a guy solo training

 

 

 

 

......works well if you're singlehanded :mellow:

 

 

arm.jpg

 

:lol::lol: yeah... so much fun

 

I know I shouldn't be laughing but...

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Pretty cool. Sustained speeds in the Hobie 16 range. Top speed roughly matching my sons trapped at 21mph.

 

What is the US delivered price on the S9?

What are the respective crew weights of Will and John?

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Michele, have you tried sailing with the windward main foil raised?

Only one time . But not fly upwind , and one foil do not support the total load . Better not do this .

 

 

Thanks. I was thinking that in conditions where the windward main foil is pulling down, the lee foil would have to support the whole load? The Vampire uses wands and retracts the windward foil so I was curious if you had looked into doing that......

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Michele, have you tried sailing with the windward main foil raised?

 

Only one time . But not fly upwind , and one foil do not support the total load . Better not do this .

Thanks. I was thinking that in conditions where the windward main foil is pulling down, the lee foil would have to support the whole load? The Vampire uses wands and retracts the windward foil so I was curious if you had looked into doing that......

We still have much to learn about the S9, I think we have reached only 60-70% of potentialities. this summer we will have more time to do more extensive testing, the Texan team is learning a lot very fast.

I believe that in the next two months we will have many interesting answers.

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Well, you've done a great job with this boat-I'm mighty impressed!

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Pretty cool. Sustained speeds in the Hobie 16 range. Top speed roughly matching my sons trapped at 21mph.

 

What is the US delivered price on the S9?

What are the respective crew weights of Will and John?

16500 euros . Full optional , full covers , big weels beach trolley , no shiping no tax

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Add 2,500 EUR for a 40' container which can store up to 6 assembled S9s and you get the bill.

For the US tax and custom duties ask Charlie

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Doug,

 

As you started this thread about small foiling cat, and a new one is to come soon on the market,

I would suggest you, to try to organize a comparative test, as both boats are likely to be in the same range price,

IMHO price is more relevant that lenght to compare "apple with apple"

 

What do you think ? It would make sense ?

 

http://www.nacrasailing.com/nacra-15-three-versions-one-platform/

 

Have a good week

 

Cheers

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In my opinion,the key difference between the boats is ease of sailing-where the S9 wins hands down because of its wand controlled foils where the foils can actually generate righting moment. That's impossible on the Nacra.

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The ease of foiling is an advantage for the first 2 hours sailing.

 

If the N15 can foil with 2 teenagers, she is likely to foil with an adult too

 

The versality of the Nacra is a hudge advantage, not to mention the Morelli-Melvin brain-power behind it.

 

An if somebody is looking for a training platform before to jump on A-Cat, I think this new 15 is a great machine.

 

As I suggested, the key point is to compare foiling cat on their price.

 

Nacra distribution network is also a kind of guarantee for the customer.

 

I thought it was a unique opportunity to bring fresh knowledge to the cat community, based on a fair comparison

 

Cheers

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Doug is absolutely right. Ease of sailing is the big difference. There is no doubt that the S9 looks a very easy boat to foil and as such, it will have its place in the market. However, the real question is whether ease of sailing really is a key issue. What makes the S9 so attractive at the moment is the price. If there was a small cat with A Class style foils (now being adopted by others) costing a similar amount, we would see a very interesting comparison. From everything that has been seen in trials on A's and other cats, the S9 set up will remain the easier to sail but is likely to be slower (Doug will argue that one, but I have seen the evidence). Which would be considered better? It depends on your viewpoint and I suspect there is room in the market for both.

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Yes, you are perfectly right Simon,

 

The key issue is whether the ease of sailing really is....?

 

I think the N15 is THE small cat with A-Cat style foils at almost similar price....

 

That is all the "spirit" of the comparison suggested above.

 

Cheers

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Doug is absolutely right. Ease of sailing is the big difference. There is no doubt that the S9 looks a very easy boat to foil and as such, it will have its place in the market. However, the real question is whether ease of sailing really is a key issue. What makes the S9 so attractive at the moment is the price. If there was a small cat with A Class style foils (now being adopted by others) costing a similar amount, we would see a very interesting comparison. From everything that has been seen in trials on A's and other cats, the S9 set up will remain the easier to sail but is likely to be slower (Doug will argue that one, but I have seen the evidence). Which would be considered better? It depends on your viewpoint and I suspect there is room in the market for both.

 

How about sharing the "evidence"? The idea of a fast, easy to sail foiler is a great one. The key, aside from cost, is how much wind does it take to foil? The Quant guys consider it important for their business that the 23 foils in relatively light air-5-8 knots- max to start foiling. The S9 has an automatic foil system making it possible for anyone with almost any skill level to foil right off the bat. If it also foils in lighter wind then it is a triple winner.

Michele, with an average weight person aboard, how much wind does it take to start foiling the S9?

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Doug is absolutely right. Ease of sailing is the big difference. There is no doubt that the S9 looks a very easy boat to foil and as such, it will have its place in the market. However, the real question is whether ease of sailing really is a key issue. What makes the S9 so attractive at the moment is the price. If there was a small cat with A Class style foils (now being adopted by others) costing a similar amount, we would see a very interesting comparison. From everything that has been seen in trials on A's and other cats, the S9 set up will remain the easier to sail but is likely to be slower (Doug will argue that one, but I have seen the evidence). Which would be considered better? It depends on your viewpoint and I suspect there is room in the market for both.

Not taking anything away from the Stunt at all, but wanted to share a perspective on costs here. In the US with the current exchange rates, you can get a foiling A-Class turnkey for about the cost of the Stunt. Foiling A-cats that are one year old or less with Z or JZ boards are selling for $22K or so USD. The Stunt is about $18.5K ex Italy so about $20K USD imported I would guess?

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Doug is absolutely right. Ease of sailing is the big difference. There is no doubt that the S9 looks a very easy boat to foil and as such, it will have its place in the market. However, the real question is whether ease of sailing really is a key issue. What makes the S9 so attractive at the moment is the price. If there was a small cat with A Class style foils (now being adopted by others) costing a similar amount, we would see a very interesting comparison. From everything that has been seen in trials on A's and other cats, the S9 set up will remain the easier to sail but is likely to be slower (Doug will argue that one, but I have seen the evidence). Which would be considered better? It depends on your viewpoint and I suspect there is room in the market for both.

 

How about sharing the "evidence"? The idea of a fast, easy to sail foiler is a great one. The key, aside from cost, is how much wind does it take to foil? The Quant guys consider it important for their business that the 23 foils in relatively light air-5-8 knots- max to start foiling. The S9 has an automatic foil system making it possible for anyone with almost any skill level to foil right off the bat. If it also foils in lighter wind then it is a triple winner.

Michele, with an average weight person aboard, how much wind does it take to start foiling the S9?

 

 

I found this in an interview Michele did with catsailingnews early on in the development of the S9-I imagine the boat is even better now. He mentions the windspeed required to foil upwind:

Gaining maximum speed is not the right way, on the S .9 we have a greater foil surface area, just like the Moth. This added lift slightly reduces the speed but gives us very controlled flight even in winds of 8 knots upwind and at an angle against the wind almost equal to the A Class.

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Doug stop talking about things you don´t know. An A-cat will kill the Stunt 9 around a course race in any condition. I saw that at Punta Ala live.

 

And that takes nothing away from Michele's current nr 1 recreational foiler.

So stop defendings assets of the Stunt 9 which does not need you saying is faster than an A.

You don´t have clue of what you are saying.

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What a ridiculous comment!! I quoted Michele in his interview with YOU-and neither he nor I said a damn thing about the S9 being faster than an A Cat!! He said it pointed "at an angle against the wind almost equal to an A class"! That DOES NOT mean it is faster than an A Cat only that it points almost as well. And he pointed out that it foiled upwind in 8knots of wind.

You absolutely and deliberately misquoted me!

I never made one comment in this or any other thread about the S9 being equal to or faster than any other cat!!!! The key to the S9 is not speed but is its ease of foiling for the average person and its ability , according to Michele, to foil upwind in 8 knots which is really good. This is an excellent boat that can open up foiling to new people better than almost any other production foiler.

You owe me a damn apology for your 100% FALSE accusation!!!!!

 

The quote from catsailingnews is here about 1/3rd the way down: http://www.catsailingnews.com/2014/02/stunt-9-by-michele-petrucci-optimizing.html

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What Doug highlights, without realising it, is that there are some very different criteria for designing a foiling boat, depending on the intended use and market. In particular, take 2 factors. First, look at upwind foiling. When you have a one design, it seems that upwind foiling is high on the agenda. However, if you take a development class, like the A, upwind foiling for the sake of it takes a back seat to upwind VMG. Even on boats like the Flying Phantom, when being raced, upwind foiling is the default fastest way upwind, with there needing to be the right situations to make it pay.

 

Second, we need to consider take-off speed. Again, this differs between upwind and downhill. For instance, you would struggle to get an A foiling uphill in under 12-14 knots, but downwind we are seeing foiling in 6-7 knots, earlier than most Moths. The question that nobody really knows the answer to is how important it is to get take-off speeds as low as possible. From what i can see, there is a small group of Americans who see this as important, because they sail at predominantly light wind venues. In the same way, it might be true of some who sail on European lakes or certain parts of the Med. However, for most sailors, it really isn't an issue. I would say there are as many sailors concerned about control over, say, 15 knots as there are those who are worried about foiling in 6 knots and while I am not saying these 2 factors are mutually exclusive, evidence from the A's suggest that foils designed to be all rounders give the best sailing experience.

 

A couple of other things spring to mind. For instance, sometimes, faster isn't better. It doesn't matter how relatively well behaved a boat is, sailing at, say, 25-28 knots is, for many, a real OMG moment and one they are not at all comfortable with. I suspect that for many, a foiler that "only" does 18-20 knots is actually more attractive. Another factor in the whole "ease of foiling" debate is around maintaining the systems. Only time will tell how much work will be needed to maintain 2 sets of wand powered foils and that has nothing to do with build quality. It is a simple fact that there are a lot of moving parts and salt/sand contribute to an unforgiving environment.

 

And the final question is "how easy is easy enough", or that could be "how difficult is too difficult"! For instance, 18 months ago, I thought foiling an A was too difficult for mass appeal and was concerned for the class. Now I don't think it is too difficult - if you can sail a trapeze cat you can sail a foiling A, even if the initial learning curve is fairly steep.

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What Doug highlights, without realising it(Really-are you sure?!), is that there are some very different criteria for designing a foiling boat, depending on the intended use and market. In particular, take 2 factors. First, look at upwind foiling. When you have a one design, it seems that upwind foiling is high on the agenda. However, if you take a development class, like the A, upwind foiling for the sake of it takes a back seat to upwind VMG. Even on boats like the Flying Phantom, when being raced, upwind foiling is the default fastest way upwind, with there needing to be the right situations to make it pay.

 

Second, we need to consider take-off speed. Again, this differs between upwind and downhill. For instance, you would struggle to get an A foiling uphill in under 12-14 knots, but downwind we are seeing foiling in 6-7 knots, earlier than most Moths. The question that nobody really knows the answer to is how important it is to get take-off speeds as low as possible. From what i can see, there is a small group of Americans who see this as important, because they sail at predominantly light wind venues. In the same way, it might be true of some who sail on European lakes or certain parts of the Med. However, for most sailors, it really isn't an issue. I would say there are as many sailors concerned about control over, say, 15 knots as there are those who are worried about foiling in 6 knots and while I am not saying these 2 factors are mutually exclusive, evidence from the A's suggest that foils designed to be all rounders give the best sailing experience.

A multfoiler like the S9 that foils upwind in 8 knots of wind and points almost as high as an A Class cat is a real achievement. Foiling in light air is a business decision for anyone building recreational foilers. Vast areas of the world and for sure the USA don't see much over 10k most of the time and usually significantly less. By allowing the customer the freedom to fly in light air there is no question that sales will be positively affected. Foiling in light air is simply designing a foiler whose primary purpose is not top end speed(necessarily) but is to allow the owner to foil in a much higher percentage of the wind range than most foilers are capable of now. Foiling in light air is an important marketing tool and a real advantage for any boat capable of it.

 

A couple of other things spring to mind. For instance, sometimes, faster isn't better. It doesn't matter how relatively well behaved a boat is, sailing at, say, 25-28 knots is, for many, a real OMG moment and one they are not at all comfortable with. I suspect that for many, a foiler that "only" does 18-20 knots is actually more attractive.Good point.

Another factor in the whole "ease of foiling" debate is around maintaining the systems. Only time will tell how much work will be needed to maintain 2 sets of wand powered foils and that has nothing to do with build quality. It is a simple fact that there are a lot of moving parts and salt/sand contribute to an unforgiving environment.

Many multihull wand systems have been built over the last 20 years and they have been robust simple systems. I haven't seen the S9 system up close but given the quality of the boat and the design I imagine these systems will be well built and very low maintenance.

 

And the final question is "how easy is easy enough", or that could be "how difficult is too difficult"! For instance, 18 months ago, I thought foiling an A was too difficult for mass appeal and was concerned for the class. Now I don't think it is too difficult - if you can sail a trapeze cat you can sail a foiling A, even if the initial learning curve is fairly steep.

For a recreational foiler it seems to me that "ease of sailing" means just that. And you can't have an easier foiler to sail than one with wand controlled foils: they make foiling automatic almost regardless of what the crew does.

Not only that but there is a MAJOR difference between the S9 foils and A Class or UptiP foils: the S9 foils don't just develop vertical lift they automatically develop righting moment when needed and this facility can allow a light weight person to sail with the same righting moment as a heavier person because the foils compensate 100% automatically for the difference.

The idea of making foiling easy and providing extra righting moment on-demand is something that a wand based multifoiler does extremely well-no other type of foils allow this. And it is also obvious that this boat and its foil system were designed to allow foiling in much lighter air than some other foilers-foiling upwind it 8 knots is terrific for a production foiler.

I wish Michele well with this boat-hope he sells a bunch!

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the S9 foils don't just develop vertical lift they automatically develop righting moment when needed and this facility can allow a light weight person to sail with the same righting moment as a heavier person because the foils compensate 100% automatically for the difference.

The idea of making foiling easy and providing extra righting moment on-demand is something that a wand based multifoiler does extremely well-no other type of foils allow this.

 

Did Michelle say he had rigged the foils to do that?

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Yes. Its the way wands work on multifoilers. The part of the proof is an incident in Punta Alena last year I think when the crew fell off the boat in a 16 knot wind and one meter waves and the boat kept foiling for three kilometers.

To control altitude wands need to be able to develop downforce on the windward foil and dual independent wands generate RM by causing the windward foil to pull down and the lee foil to lift more adding RM as required. And they do it 100% automatically.

 

see posts 29, 30 and 54 of this thread

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But did Michelle directly claim that his foils pull down? Michelle, are you running a dual moth arrangement, or a Windrider Rave/Hobie Trifoiler arrangement? Serious difference with such a short moment arm.

DRC

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He answered the question posed in post 29 with a yes. Seems pretty clear. Having dual, independent wands is advantageous on a multifoiler .

The Rave had dual independent wands mounted pivotably midships directly to the foil. The Hobie Trifoiler used "feelers" sticking out in front of the boat and directly attached to the foil. The Rave system used the wand to move a flap, the trifoiler used big feelers to move the whole foil.

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When I saw the S9 in 2014 at the first Foiling Week, the main foil flaps were not attached to the vertical pushrods, so that the wand/pushrod linkage was only able to push the flap down, and unable to pull it up. Hence in that configuration it was impossible to get down force on windward foil no matter how high the hull rose or how far the wand swung forward.

 

Those boats were pre production and things may have changed by now, can anyone clarify.

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But did Michelle directly claim that his foils pull down? Michelle, are you running a dual moth arrangement, or a Windrider Rave/Hobie Trifoiler arrangement? Serious difference with such a short moment arm.

 

DRC

Dave, to help me understand-what exactly do you mean by "short moment arm"? Moment generated by what? where? Thanks....

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When I saw the S9 in 2014 at the first Foiling Week, the main foil flaps were not attached to the vertical pushrods, so that the wand/pushrod linkage was only able to push the flap down, and unable to pull it up. Hence in that configuration it was impossible to get down force on windward foil no matter how high the hull rose or how far the wand swung forward.

 

Those boats were pre production and things may have changed by now, can anyone clarify.

 

The new foil system(2015) develops downforce on the windward foil(and extra lift on the lee foil)-and automatically adds RM as required since the dual, independent wands respond instantly to any heel.

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