• Announcements

    • Zapata

      Abbreviated rules   07/28/2017

      Underdawg did an excellent job of explaining the rules.  Here's the simplified version: Don't insinuate Pedo.  Warning and or timeout for a first offense.  PermaFlick for any subsequent offenses Don't out members.  See above for penalties.  Caveat:  if you have ever used your own real name or personal information here on the forums since, like, ever - it doesn't count and you are fair game. If you see spam posts, report it to the mods.  We do not hang out in every thread 24/7 If you see any of the above, report it to the mods by hitting the Report button in the offending post.   We do not take action for foul language, off-subject content, or abusive behavior unless it escalates to persistent stalking.  There may be times that we might warn someone or flick someone for something particularly egregious.  There is no standard, we will know it when we see it.  If you continually report things that do not fall into rules #1 or 2 above, you may very well get a timeout yourself for annoying the Mods with repeated whining.  Use your best judgement. Warnings, timeouts, suspensions and flicks are arbitrary and capricious.  Deal with it.  Welcome to anarchy.   If you are a newbie, there are unwritten rules to adhere to.  They will be explained to you soon enough.  
Doug Lord

14' Stunt S9 Foiling Cat

Recommended Posts

joking

Although I haven't owned a Moth for a few years, i know the scene and getting a new A certainly isn't like getting a Moth. The current builders are trying to make it far more "plug and play". Depending on who you get the boat from, it can be as "simple" as setting up the foils so their AoA is the same and spot on. I don't know anybody who has hot the full on professional foil refinishing done. Most A class sailors have their own views on how they like their boat fitted out so do play, but the boats are more than good enough "out of the box".

 

Depending on where you are and the manufacturer, getting a platform vs a complete boat might create a bit more or less work. Depending where you are, there is sometimes the potential to buy a boat that is already set up and has only been sailed for a very small amount - for example, here in Oz there was a boat set up and sailed by Nathan Outteridge for 1 week, or there was Stevie Brewin's winning boat that was only a few months old. Sometimes at the time of the worlds there are good, a few weeks use charter boats available that have been set up by top sailors. Rather than hijack a thread, pm me with where you are and i can give you a better picture as to your options and put you in touch with the right people to help you.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Hi Simon,

Thank you for your comments.

I guess I don't understand this statement:

"If at zero lift from the windward board the boat doesn't foil.....".

Is it possible for the windward board be in the water and, if the flap is in the appropriate position, provide zero lift?

 

If I look at it on the trailer, with everything in sailing position, the board appears able to provide positive lift, neutral lift, or negative lift,

and change quite quickly between these, depending on the flap position (as commanded by the wand).

 

Would it be helpful to see a video with the boat on the trailer? I could focus the camera on the flap and cycle the wand to simulate waves.

 

I don't have much time on the boat, still a lot to learn, but I do know it is quite happy with all four foils in the water.

It gets less happy if I heel it too far. I don't know why.

 

It takes quite a heel to pop the windward foil out of the water - only done it once myself and I never saw any of the other 5 skippers do it.

 

Anyway, thank you for your comments. It's all new to me - and quite a change from my old beach cat days.

Charlie

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I think what Simon is trying to say is if the windward foil comes out of the water, the lee foil can't carry the total weight on the one foil and will begin to submerge which is sort of implying that whilst the windward foil is in the water it must be combining with the Lee foil to keep the boat airbourne. The more the lee hull submerges the more the wand gives more positive flap, to give added lift, but and here is the big but, that adding more flap is actually a moment behind the time frame needed to prevent you going splashing.

 

Just to spice up the debate a bit, now bare in mind that the rear rudder foil is still operating fine and keeping the boat up at the rear because it carries only probably 10 - 20% of the load. Now the front foils AoA is changing rapidly as the front goes down, if you now look at the lift forces on the front lee foil, its no longer vertical but further forward and thus its upward vector is reducing. As the hull gets closer to the water, the wand is piling on positive flap to an already nose down main foil, ( which in an approxiamate way wants to rotate the foil because of the severe AoA ) + the rear rudder foil is now nose down and wanting to produce lots of lift, we're into that splash spiral that one of your videos shows, where in a fraction of a second the lee foil has totally given up all hope of keeping the boat up and with the speed and inertia , yup you're in the water in the blink of an eye.

 

Now if there was some sort of feedback loop the lee foil would begin to put the flap down a bit earlier to give more lift to compensate for the lack of its buddy on the windward side, when the windward foil broaches the surface. Now that feedback loop is probably way beyond a simple mechanical linkage.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Charlie

Maybe some of the comments aren't as clear as they should be, although Wayne has cleared a few up. For clarity

Hi Simon,

Thank you for your comments.

I guess I don't understand this statement:

"If at zero lift from the windward board the boat doesn't foil.....".

Is it possible for the windward board be in the water and, if the flap is in the appropriate position, provide zero lift? We don't know if that is possible or not. What we do know from 2 people is that with the windward board out of the water, the boat doesn't foil properly. When the board is out of the water, clearly it is contributing zero lift and therefore we can assume that if the board was in the water and set at zero lift, the boat wouldn't foil

 

If I look at it on the trailer, with everything in sailing position, the board appears able to provide positive lift, neutral lift, or negative lift,

and change quite quickly between these, depending on the flap position (as commanded by the wand). I don't think it is that simple. Flap up doesn't tell us whether it is providing negative lift. I think the factor you need to consider is the Angle of Incidence of the boards, which in turn influences the Angle of Attack through the water. I don't have any information on the S9, but on the vast majority of foilers, the foils are set to a positive value when sailing with the boat level fore and aft. What this means is if, for example, the AoA is 2 degrees, then having the flap up a bit could well not change the direction of lift. Not only is the AoA important, but the overall section and the size of flap also inputs to the whole picture. I am not convinced that you could tell anything from photos alone.

 

Would it be helpful to see a video with the boat on the trailer? I could focus the camera on the flap and cycle the wand to simulate waves.

 

I don't have much time on the boat, still a lot to learn, but I do know it is quite happy with all four foils in the water.

It gets less happy if I heel it too far. I don't know why. As you heel, a number of things happen that all inter-relate to create a bad situiation. You increase the loads on the leeward foil in particular with the direction of lift changing, away from vertical and finally, the centre of effort and buoyancy moves. It becomes a bit of a vicious circle. At some point, you then get other effects, because as the windward foil gets close to the surface, it can begin to suck air and ventilate.

 

It takes quite a heel to pop the windward foil out of the water - only done it once myself and I never saw any of the other 5 skippers do it.

 

Anyway, thank you for your comments. It's all new to me - and quite a change from my old beach cat days.

Charlie

Charlie

 

You have a great toy there and what you are doing is "real world" stuff. It doesn't matter whether the windward foil produces negative lift or not. When you are on the water all you can do is respond to what the boat is doing. If the boat heels, you need to flatten it out. If the bow begins to go up in the air, you need to sheet on to get it back down etc, etc. The boat looks to repond well and be pretty easy to sail, but it is clearly not 100% automatic and you will have hours of fun learning how to truly ,aster it in all conditions.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Wayne and Simon,

Yes, what you describe seems reasonable, thank you.

 

It's a steep learning curve: things happen, we analyze, we make adjustments, we go out and try it again.

We read and talk about technique changes - but it's easier to talk about it than to do it (how about that?).

 

A few more observations from our very few minutes on the water: (I suspect many of you already know most of this):

 

5 of the 6 skippers outweigh the boat - some by over 40 pounds (20 kg?), so weight placement is important.

Weight placement may overpower board rake settings (AoA?). The boards and rudders are only 58 inches apart (1.47 meters).

 

Steering at speed is very light - the slightest movement causes big changes, often with spectacular results.

Smooth is fast, as borne out by the videos of the experienced skippers.

The boats were relatively inexpensive, durable so far, well supported by the builder, and logistically easy to rig, launch and retrieve (still working out a few things).

The only unexpected expense is: now we need a chase boat :) .

 

Simon, thank you for your kind comments. Yes, we are all having a ball on these little boats - I hope the videos show that.

 

Charlie

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

Steering at speed is very light - the slightest movement causes big changes, often with spectacular results.

Smooth is fast, as borne out by the videos of the experienced skippers.

 

 

So here is a quick tip taken from Moths but also used by a few A Class sailors because the steering challenge is common to all foilers. One solution is to add a little resistance and self centering to the system by using some shock cord. On the Moth, you put it over the tiller and tie of to each wing or down to the gantry. This helps deaden the sensitivity. Look at some Moth pictures on Google and you will notice the shock cord and a number of different ways of doing it. What works best for your boat could need a be a bit of experimentation. Maybe its a bit of shock cord around the tiller and beam, adjusted for tension to get the right feel.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

[...]

It gets less happy if I heel it too far. I don't know why.

 

It takes quite a heel to pop the windward foil out of the water - only done it once myself and I never saw any of the other 5 skippers do it.

 

[...]

 

 

Thank you for posting some real–world experience!

 

Foilers don't have the buoyancy response to heel that a floater does. As the boat heels, the leeward foil's lift becomes less efficient at countering the heel since it's operating less and less vertically (roughly the cosine of the angle of heel) whereas buoyancy is always straight up.

 

So keep the boat flat, anticipate heel and use the controls to counter it early.

 

From the videos, it seems the windward wand spends quite a bit of time above (and out of contact with) the water, is that correct? I may just be that it's hidden behind the hull.

 

Simon's tip to put a bungee on the tiller is vital, it should have a fairly positive self–centering force. But it also means the boat is more likely to sail to the horizon if you fall off!!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Thank you Simon and Rob.

This is great stuff - practical experience and knowledge easily transferred to our little group. We do appreciate it.

 

Rob, in high wind the windward wand does spend a lot of time in mid-air, generating (choose one or both please) neutral or negative lift from the main foils.

We are still sailing mostly with max board rake (max lift? max positive AoA? anyway: top of board fully back) on the main foils, if we adjust them forward a bit I think something will change. Part of our learning curve. Michele is helping us here, but we still need to put all this into practice.

 

There is also a bungee that can be adjusted to control the downforce on the wands. We haven't started experimenting with that yet.

 

I understand the bungee/tiller concept, but perhaps it just needs more friction, not more auto-centering.

As you noted, when on-center, unattended, it seems to sail just fine all by itself. (Entertaining video and commentary courtesy of John Tomko.)

By the way, John makes all the rest of us look bad - videos of him sailing are boring. The rest of us provide all the highlights.

 

We are assembling the group to sail again this weekend, weather permitting. Our resident professional videographer (and Hobie sailor) has been invited to participate.

Stay tuned......
Thanks again,
Charlie

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Some Moths use the bungee to just add friction, others use it to self center. The self centering doesn't have to be very strong at all and I would go with the centering version, because it acts as a reminder where "straight ahead" actually is and sometimes that really helps. it's like a rally driver having a mark on the steering wheel so he can easily identify when the wheels are pointing straight!!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Shockcord centring the tiller on a moth is safe because if you go overboard the boat soon falls over. As we have seen on the video, the foiling cat can go a very long way, and that is a sure formula for being left out there all alone, and potentially lost as sea.

 

Cats have always had that problem, I have been both the rescued and the rescuer in my past cat sailor life, but I see no reason to add to the likelihood of a sail away.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Its interesting that rudders are becoming a problem due to sensitivity, aircraft solved that problem way way way back in the dark ages with their take on rudders and dynamically balanced flaps rudders and aelerons. Surely with the increasing speeds we must be getting close to the real kit breaker, flutter.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Moth rudders are made less sensitive by

1. having a longer than normal tiller,possible by having the rudder 500mm aft of the stern on the gantry.

2. having the axis of the gudgeons raked (bottom forward) so that the rudder area is well always aft of the axis.

 

All the foiling cats seem to need the crew to trapeze right at the back of the bus, which when the rudder is transom mounted, makes a long tiller very impractical. Raking the pivot might be of help.

 

When I started to foil fast I avoided over steering by locking my steering forearm agains my thigh and only using small wrist movements to steer. Not something which will work if trapezing.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Took the two boats out again yesterday, 4 skippers and a chase boat. Fourth session for the boats - third in conditions that allowed foiling. Flat water, wind 4-5 mph with gusts up to 19 mph (but not many that good). Had to wait for the gusts, but quite satisfying when they did come. Skipper weights were 151 pounds up to about 200 pounds. Two of the skippers added their sons for a few minutes. One skipper had a few good foiling runs with his 6-year old son on board (properly helmeted and life-jacketed of course) - pretty pumped up family at the end, especially the kid. The Moms approvingly watched it all from the chase boat. Lot of interest from the "leaner" crowd at the yacht club.

 

Michele suggested a few changes in setup, so before we sailed we raked (angled) the rudders and the mast back, and raked the main foils forward a bit. Less bungee pressure pulling the wands down. Result was much less lift from the rudder, slightly less lift on the main foils. Net effect on the water was dramatic: more predictable handling, more notice when that "wheelie" phenomenon started. We no longer feel like we have to stand behind the rudders to control the boat. Bow down sightly, weight around the shroud to lift-off, then move back just a few inches as the boat comes up. Weight can now be used quite effectively to alter angle of attack and manage ride height. "Wheelie" can now be killed immediately by stepping forward a half step - if you do it soon enough. The boats now give direct and predictable feedback when we change weight position, steering angle, or sheet tension. Moved trap positions higher: allows us to hook up and go out before the puff hits, so we're not trying to get on the wire and lift off at he same time. Less drama. Still strange to me, maybe you guys can explain, but sheeting in to alleviate excess heel works well. Helm is much heavier now, manageable, good feel, but we may have angled the rudders back just a bit too far. Very satisfying session - feeling more comfortable on the boats. Fewer "WT%$#@ just happened?" moments as in previous sessions. We didn't evaluate autonomous sailing mode :). I'll try to get some video up in a few days.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Charlie, how much wind would you say is required for a 200lb person to be able to foil?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Still strange to me, maybe you guys can explain, but sheeting in to alleviate excess heel works well.

Pretty common now with most beach cats, the square top sails are set up to open the top part of the sail to spill the wind, by bending the mast with increased main tension, to put more curve into the mast track below the hounds, (effectively making the tension on the top part of the luff go diagonally from the mast top to about the 2nd batten down on the luff ) which then allows the top part of the sail to simply fall way with each gust as there is little tension on the luff, which in turn lowers the CoE of the sail lower down the mast, which reduces the heel of the boat.

 

Now that is an anomoly to me as I want my sea hugger to heel to get one hull out of the water and then limit the power in the sail.

 

You can achieve the same by setting your downhaul tighter or looser, which I now use as my broad adjustment, setting the downhaul to the point where the boat is neither underpowered nor over powered in the average conditions of the day, with main tension acting as the fine tuning. When single handing you need to be able to have best gust response to make it easy to manage the boat, so reset the downhaul often, always leaving just enough main tension on to feel what your changes have made to the boat.

 

Just to complicate things also on those masts set up for it, in stronger conditions you can depower the sail even more by reducing the mast rotation, remember the mast is weakest when the mast is fully rotated in when you would expect it to be stronger on the widest axis, but with modern material design, the mast manufacturers can set what ever they want.

 

If you really want to get complicated and want early lift off, you may need to limit the big guys to one boat ( actually one mast ) and the little guys on the other. For the big guys you may need to have the spreaders some way further forward than for the little guys and adjusting the diamond tension to suit the day, very tight in light winds, medium tight in medium winds and again tighter and more spreader ( bends the mast ) in the upper winds.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Hi Doug,

Hard to say - I've been reviewing the videos and interviewing the skippers for their opinions.

We've had four skippers at each of the three foiling sessions so far (seven skippers total) - not a very large sample.

151 to 210 pounds. The boats start to lift at 10-11 mph boat speed. At each session, if one of us can fly, all of us can fly to some extent.

Doesn't seem to be as weight sensitive as we thought it would be. Skill of the skipper seems to be more of a factor than weight.

My best guess would be about 10 mph wind speed. Maybe 12. Less than even baby whitecap conditions, anyway.

 

Wayne, thank you. Lowering the CoE makes sense. The boats do not like heel, especially to the point of popping a foil out.

Seems like more downhaul is the easiest way to control that, eh? Max sheet tension without a tight downhaul doesn't work.

Downhaul is easily adjusted while on the wire - just have to be in control enough to do it.

We're trying to keep both boats tuned the same way. Right now they are easy to rig and quite quick to set up - don't want to complicate anything yet.

Technique seems to be more important than anything else at this stage of the game - for us anyway.

 

Charlie

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Charlie

What you are finding about weight sensitivity seems to follow my experience with a number of foilers. It can be very hard to identify exactly what allows some to foil earlier than others because of 2 significant factors. First, as you identify, there is the issue of technique, which I think makes the biggest difference. Even then, it's like surfing waves - even the best sometimes misses a wave, or in this case, even the best sometimes times their technique wrong and doesn't get foiling when they could do. The one thing is certain - early foiling is not about sitting there waiting for the ride! The other factor that distorts the picture is that in the lighter conditions, there s a far greater likelihood of pressure differences that can make significant differences. Half a knot difference in wind-speed, which is almost unnoticeable, can make the difference between foiling or not, whereas with a conventional boat, it would make almost no difference to speed. Sometimes that very small difference in wind-speed is all that is needed to get a little more lift which slightly reduces wetted surface which increases speed a little more which increases lift again and the cycle continues.

 

What I think is more interesting is whether you have noticed any difference in straight line speed between people of different weight.

 

Reducing CoE is a big factor in A Class foiling. We are now using downhaul very differently than we were a while ago. For instance, everybody used to ease downhaul before rounding the top mark and that was to prevent masts breaking. Now, the downhaul is left on all round the course and (luckily) masts aren't breaking (are masts stronger, loads different??). Higher speeds need flatter sails and lower CoE.

 

One of the difficult things in marginal foiling conditions is the need to constantly play the downhaul. If you are struggling to foil, you don't wnat to kill power through the downhaul but once up on foils, the increase in apparent wind speed means you need to pull it on pretty quickly to get good, fast foiling.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Thank you Simon,we'll give this a try, maybe Sunday. Our lake is not known for steady winds, so it's almost always marginal.

One of the difficult things in marginal foiling conditions is the need to constantly play the downhaul. If you are struggling to foil, you don't want to kill power through the downhaul but once up on foils, the increase in apparent wind speed means you need to pull it on pretty quickly to get good, fast foiling.

 

Still working on the videos......

 

John Tomko and Jonathan Atwood, two of our S9 skippers, are in Cannes this week to sail the Flying Phantom "Lupe Tortilla".

If you see them, please give them a warm welcome. They have been a real help to the Texas S9 group.

 

Charlie

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Charlie, is there a specific angle(back from vertical) for the wand when it reaches the nominal flight altitude? Is the length of the wand adjustable?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Hi Doug.

The wand is a fixed length fiberglass rod with a low-drag carbon fiber "spoon" bonded to the end of it.

When flying too high, the wand just hangs straight down. In displacement mode, it points almost straight back.

It has an adjustable bungee cord to adjust how hard it pushes down (more tension: higher flight).

In flight, it skitters on the surface of the water, so the angle is constantly changing.

You can watch it in action in the Tomko video above - post 220.

Charlie

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

https://youtu.be/MLqOyCaieM4

 

First sail with new setup, sound included. Note weight placement compared to earlier videos.

 

Looking better. The trapeze makes sheeting harder than in a hiking boat, with a long tiller extension you can only use one hand. Maybe shorten the tiller extension so you can hold it in front of you and use both hands?

 

For foiling gybes, I imagine you'll have to first learn to foil off the wire, so more breeze and deeper. I bet when you came off foils you thinking "where did the breeze go?" 'cos most of what you had was apparent. You must crave some steady 12-15kn. :-)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Mmmm what ever you do, do not cleat the main unless you really have to make another adjustment some where else, most A's don't have a cleat but the skipper uses their teeth to lock off the main whilst adjusting the downhaul.

 

Most of us single handers also have very long tiller sticks, put the stick on your rear shoulder neck area or under your armpit if you are more comfortable and then you can use the resistance to slow down the tiller movement using the rear arm to steer and the front to play the main. Simply lock off the pole with the inside of your arm whilst needing two hands.

 

The biggest best benefit I did on my boat, which just transformed the whole single hander issues, was to put a foward or just behind spanner, main sheet system. Some single handers now have gone over to a boom or under tramp 12:1 cascade system with the last control sheet emerging at just behind the spanner. All pulling forces are now at 90 degrees to you on the wire, it allows total freedom to steer with one arm and sheet with the other. It doesn't need much to modify a rear sheet system as you can simply put your system upside down and run the sheet down the boom to a front pulley. We had a great big long discussion on this forum some years back about the design of such a system.

 

Certainly I have found the further foward the sheet, the easy it as a single hander, as the forces rather than pulling against you, the tighter the sheet, the more locked on your feet are and as a plus you are always facing forward.

 

Most people seem to want to gybe too fast across onto the new track, by doing so you scrub off a lot of speed. Gybeing is always easier for some reason, if you face to the back of the boat as you cross the boat, for some reason you can identify from the wake just how much you are turning the boat and how much speed you are dropping. Certainly on my F16 if you lose too much speed just as the spinnaker comes across, you are liable to go swimming, get it right and the gybes are a joy as the spinny loops around and simply reshapes on the new leeward side and you are off. Speed is king in gybes.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

Looking better. The trapeze makes sheeting harder than in a hiking boat, with a long tiller extension you can only use one hand. Maybe shorten the tiller extension so you can hold it in front of you and use both hands?

 

Don't shorten the tiller extension! Remember you need to be able to hold it and control the boat from right up by the mast and shroud to all teh way back at the back of the bus. It is a simple fact of any trapeze sailing boat that when you are at the back, the extension is longer than you need. Sheeting isn't really an issue - there are a lot of boats where the helm trapezes and everybody adapts just fine. You learn all sorts of little tricks, such as the quick, multi wrap around the hand.

 

Like Wayne says, I would be very wary of the mainsheet cleat. In fact, I have never had one on a single sailed boat (you need it on a single hander with a kite). I also agree with moving the final take off point for the mainsheet forward. When I started sailing A's, there were somethinhg like 3 or 4 people in the Oz fleet who did it (rather than stern sheeting) but as people began to trapeze downhill, it became more popular to the point that today, very few have stuck with stern sheeting. The angle of pull from forward gives you something to brace yourself against in a way you cannot with stern sheeting making it far easier to stay on the side of the boat.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

First test S9 UK team Outlaw Sailing .

wind 5-6 knods

Simon , you like sail number?

post-48865-0-51791500-1460800512_thumb.jpeg

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Congratulations, Michele-and foiling in light air too-can't get better than that!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Simon , you like sail number?

These days it needs to be AUS, home of the best cat sailors in the world :ph34r::D

 

(but yes, I like)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Great video(except the music-but thats just me). The boat is looking good- very close to some flying gybes-congratulations-again!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Great video(except the music-but thats just me). The boat is looking good- very close to some flying gybes-congratulations-again!

Thanks Doug . New setup goes really better , alot of good numbers of performance .

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

what are we supposed to see? 18.6 kt max speed with 9 kt wind?

2.1 The wind speed is a very good data, especially if it concerns 13.5 feet with T foil and only 10 square meters of sail. If you are not interested you are not forced to view it

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I am interested, michele, its just that your post was too brief and I didnt understand what exactly you wanted to point out. Add to that a screen shot in italian! Yes 2x windspeed is worth posting! But really a peak in the gps cannot be compared to the avg windspeed. You cant possibly know what was the gust that produced that peak. What was the sustained boat speed that day?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

 

My friend did this. Wind 6 to 9 knots max, do not know average speed, I think that obtained top speed at about 100 degrees from wind direction , but could also full foling in upwind at about 45 degrees, speed 10.2 to 12.6 knots.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

 

Yes . It is an interesting data,

The boat can also fly in 5-6 knots, but for raising hulls from the water surface we need 1/2 -1 knots wind more, this is normal in all hydrofoil boats.

One other good data is that UK team have make a test in gusty wind 18-28 knots wind , other team have make test in 16-23 knots wind , but big long 2 m wave plus choppy from different direction .

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Got one boat out today. Fairly stable wind for a change. Best thing I did was have my friend Bill and his sweetie Charlotte chase me around in the ski boat. The boat pitched me off the windward side and capsized on top of me as I was coming in off the wire while still fully foiling. Probably shouldn't do that any more. It drifted faster that I could swim, they saved the boat just before it hit the breakwater. Thanks Bill and Charlotte! Great day for a training sail - about 10-14 mph, not too gusty. I followed some advice from this forum and went with max downhaul, max outhaul, and restricted rotation. Liftoff took a little more speed, but the power was much easier to manage. Simply stepping forward a few inches to anticipate a gust pretty much killed the tendency to hop or launch. Yea! I learned that I cannot tack this boat very well - it just stops in the middle of a tack. I also found out that my 149 pounds is not enough to right the boat. Also learned to discuss rescue procedures and get tow ropes ready BEFORE the sail. Duh. Set a new personal record of 23 mph. 20 seems fairly easy to achieve in these conditions. Weather helm was a bit high - need to rake the rudders forward just a bit. One pic attached. Working on videos, stay tuned.

post-41294-0-50564900-1462658973_thumb.jpg

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Got one boat out today. Fairly stable wind for a change. Best thing I did was have my friend Bill and his sweetie Charlotte chase me around in the ski boat. The boat pitched me off the windward side and capsized on top of me as I was coming in off the wire while still fully foiling. Probably shouldn't do that any more. It drifted faster that I could swim, they saved the boat just before it hit the breakwater. Thanks Bill and Charlotte! Great day for a training sail - about 10-14 mph, not too gusty. I followed some advice from this forum and went with max downhaul, max outhaul, and restricted rotation. Liftoff took a little more speed, but the power was much easier to manage. Simply stepping forward a few inches to anticipate a gust pretty much killed the tendency to hop or launch. Yea! I learned that I cannot tack this boat very well - it just stops in the middle of a tack. I also found out that my 149 pounds is not enough to right the boat. Also learned to discuss rescue procedures and get tow ropes ready BEFORE the sail. Duh. Set a new personal record of 23 mph. 20 seems fairly easy to achieve in these conditions. Weather helm was a bit high - need to rake the rudders forward just a bit. One pic attached. Working on videos, stay tuned.

Good to meet you today Charlie. It was a great day on the water.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Really stable , good degrees in downwind ,position creew perfect .

Seems new setup work better.

even you have learn alot in short time .

greath .

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Second run, trying to go more upwind. Learning to handle gusts better (watch course number as gusts hit).

 

Skimming behavior upwind rather than flying high: is this normal? Felt good, speed looked good, but I don't know if this is optimal (or how to change it).

 

I tried locking the mainsheet instead of working it (okay, calm down and keep reading).

It didn't kill me, still stable, but it required more attention to weight placement and tiller movement to control heel and pitch changes.

It certainly took a lot less effort.

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lPGAlZokWKY

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Good stuff, Charlie-thanks.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

Skimming behavior upwind rather than flying high: is this normal? Felt good, speed looked good, but I don't know if this is optimal (or how to change it).

 

 

Moths have two primary height controls: a "dial" that changes the length of the horizontal pushrod for more or less flap for a given wand position, and wand length where longer is higher. Higher is faster, but maybe not on a Stunt as they sail flat, so less main strut in the water means more leeway as you go higher. Maybe faster is with a bit more strut in the water, but not much more as there are two of them.

 

Generally, Moths are set to fly higher upwind than down by changing settings, but the different dynamics mean that the boat sails at about the same height in both directions (depending on conditions). If you're set for maximum height upwind and don't change settings for downwind, chances are you'll come off a wave, ventilate the main foil and go down the mine.

 

Of course those are generalisations and vary greatly between sailors and conditions. Some guys change just about everything at the top mark, others just fiddle a bit with height and maybe crack the vang.

 

Rudder settings vary too, but might be a bit more bow up or more bow down depending on how you sail, where you sit/trapeze, what you're upwind settings are for the day and conditions.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Charlie, looks to me like he began the gybe with the boat pitched up pretty high-and then it went higher and the foils stalled? Looks like crew weight needs to be way forward thru the gybe? What is your shock cord tension on the wand in that video-low,medium or high?

Thanks for all the video-- great following you guys.......

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Thank you Doug. We've been keeping the shock cord fairly tight - still not enough time on the water to know if that's right or not, in any weather.

 

The boom is very low at the front. To gybe one must cross over very near the stern, which, as you saw, create an AOA issue.

The whole boat is 13 feet 7 inches long, we actually operate in about 3 feet of that realm.

 

So far, John is the only one with

a) enough consistent wind to try a foiling gybe (shifty lake winds are the norm here)

and

B) the balls to just push the tiller and do it

 

Which reminds me:

Early in this process I was a bit concerned that some sailor would harm my babies by executing stupid or inexperienced maneuvers.

John pretty tactfully told me that, if I let him sail the boats, he was not going to baby them.

After a bit of thought, I decided he was right, I would just let my friends go with it, no restrictions.

The boats have been flipped, turtled, launched into the air, dragged their skippers by the trap line bungees, abandoned to sail themselves,

and generally put through the wringer by all 10 skippers.

These are tough little boats - I am amazed at how little maintenance has been required.

Charlie

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Interesting side bar to this is that one of the top A Class sailors in Oz believes he will foil tack before he foil gybes.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Hi RT! Thank you! Where have you been? Are you ready to sail with us?

 

Tendonitis in my right elbow is keeping me off the water. Burns to use it. Hopefully be out soon.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

No! What happened?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

From our last session:

We lost all wind, so we decided to tow the boats back home with the chase boat.

The tow line was about 50 feet long and tied to the front beam on one of the S9s.

Just above fast idle on the chase boat, the S9 slowly came up on the foils.

We accelerated the chase boat a bit to keep the tow line tight.

We were all thinking "Cool!" but.......

The sail on the S9 now had enough apparent wind to do its job, and the S9 accelerated, started running over the tow line, headed straight for the chase boat!

 

We didn't expect that.

 

Now we had a problem: should we go faster on the chase boat - or would that only make things worse?

Anyway, I think John dumped the sheet and went to the back of the boat - more AOA but more drag.

The S9 settled down and we all had a good laugh.

 

Lesson learned: don't tie the tow line to the boat while the sail is up.

 

Maybe we'll try to "slingshot" a boat onto the foils the next time we have low wind - but with a handheld tow line.

 

Headed out again next week if the flooding stops.

 

Good luck to John and Jonathan on Lake Geneva this weekend!

 

Charlie

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

We used to play a game in the early days of foiling moth when there was no wind. You effectively got a tow start and then the competition was to see who could stay up on foils the longest. Rohan Veal was really good at this (surprise....not!), but it added a bit of fun to the tow home.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

No tow rope. We held onto the wing and towed side by side. That was easy with a Moth because you could literally park the wing on the side of the rib while you sat on it, but I am not sure it would work with a cat!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Perhaps his parents will want to verify this, but I think the young man on the front page earned his wings on an S9.

+1000

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

From www.catsailingnews.com--an excerpt from the article:

 

All of the S9s appeared to be achieving the same angle and speed as the Phantoms and were undoubtedly easier to sail giving the crews a very stable platform. The S9s appeared to sail higher and faster upwind than the Whisper. It was easy to get a measure of this as the S9s shared the same gate as the Phantoms, Whisper and the Moths. The gate was only 50 metres wide and around 50 foilers sharing the gate led to some very interesting moments!
The next day saw a 20knt breeze and half metre rolling waves. The S9s performed incredibly well in these conditions, Steve hitting 17knts upwind and Federico 24knts downwind with Michele and Vincenzo first and second respectively on the race course showing greater all round ability on the boat.
The Stunt S9s created significant interest with those watching from ashore and competitors on the water. This small boat was sailing as fast and high and in perfect balance against some giants of the foiling world.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I cannot confirm the details,but I have to saythat when I rested between races I saw an S9 doing reeeally well upwind. Flat,on the foils with a pretty good closed leach,going fast at a decent angle. I was impressed

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

That is awesome!!! If I could find a way to get up there. Hmm!!!!!

 

I would like to check the S9 out some day.

 

Cheers,

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

We are organizing a container S9 to New Caledonia,

those who are interested in this please contact me 12piedi@gmail.com

Regards Michele

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The two S9s from Texas will soon be in Newport for The Foiling Week event, September 8-11.

We'll have a couple of guys from the S9 Foiling Team Texas to help show you the boats.

Michele is sending his friend Federico to race and help out.

If you would like to get on the list to trial one of the boats, please PM me.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Due to the global success of the Stunt S9 with boats being built for delivery to all corners of the world production slots for 2016 are becoming limited. The earliest build slots currently available are now into December, these are sure to fill quickly due to the planned price rise in 2017.

 

By the end of 2016 we will have S9's in : UK, Italy, Texas, Switzerland, Germany, France, New Caledonia, Spain and Florida.

 

To be part of this growing phenomenon and to book a build slot and secure your boat before christmas please contact us.

S9 TAEM

post-48865-0-64517400-1471788637_thumb.jpg

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

the planned price rise in 2017.

 

 

Thats depressing.

 

Cheers,

DON’T WORRY The price will rise only by 4-5%

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Hi everybody!


The trailer containing my S9s will be rumbling into Newport early in the afternoon of September 7th.


We’ll start rigging that afternoon and continue rigging early on the 8th.


If you see us there, please come by and visit.


Restaurant and entertainment advice would be appreciated.


Demos available after assembly, of course. (Six sailors in line so far.)


Charlie


Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites