Doug Lord

14' Stunt S9 Foiling Cat

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Anyone have an opinion on S9 v foiling A class? A class is 4' longer and costs more, but should be faster and foil sooner right?

Unfortunately we had few short occasions to compete against A class, this year on Vele Di Pasqua in Cesenatico.

7 A class fly and classic, 4 S9, wind 5 to 9 knots, a little wave,

The S9 has proven to be a great race foiler, with a really good VMG,

upwind: wind 7-8 knots , boat speed 10.8 -12.7 knots, angle to the wind about 0-4 degrees more than A cat classic but less degrees than A cat flying , downwind better angle and better speed, even a few gybes in flight .

S9 start was 6 minutes after A cat start, then difficult to estimate the exact performance in race, it is not permitted me to write about S9 against A cat but I know that there is someone here on SA, who can talk about this race.

Cheers , Michele

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so, if a crew of two people, say at a total weight of ~300lbs/140kg tried to sail the S9.., would it still be ok?

 

what wind speed would be needed for easy, stable, foiling at that weight?

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S9 is design only for 1 man , have only 9.1 sqm sail , but someone have test fly with 2 people about 150kg , wind from 10 to 20 knods , nothing broken , no problem to fly well and stable , but better do not this .

Many of S9 owners are more than 90 kg and use S9 from 7 to 28 knots wind .

Best building tecnology and shape design hulls+foiling kit make S9 really good and easy on a really big range wind-wave and weight creew .

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Newestbie,

 

It might be difficult to get a fair performance speed test between these 2 concepts.

For such a test to be reliable, it would be important to prepare a "protocol" with appropriate instruments and reliable set-up .

 

But what is possible to achieve is a kind of "relative value" analysis:

 

I mean: in France we were used to purchase Bimare A-Cat at 12000€ (Not foiler)

 

These "Classic A-Cat" "had:

13.94 sqm sail area

9 meters carbon mast with autoclave technology as adverstized

18 feet full carbon hulls

Circular track

4 straight foils.

 

So Today no former French A-Cater has already jump on the S9 at 18000€

Although this boat has:

11,5 sqm sail area

7.5 meters carbon mast autoc.............

14 feet fiberglass hulls with some carbon

Straight track

4 T foils with flaps & 2 wand-controls

 

Because, it looks to us, that the foiling hype is priced @ 8000€,

 

While I did not check the prices, it is probably more expansive than the A-Cat full foiling kit from eXploder, or even DNA.

 

I think, many US A-Caters have already ordered such kits from Europe, so you should be able to get the info on this forum, with US tax and transporataion costs

 

Doing so you would have a cleared picture, allowing you to make your own independent judgment.

 

Also, people are probably worrying regarding the future second hand market for this kind of "concept"

because It is very difficult to guess and might be full of unpleasant surprises, as it is not an established class.

 

Similar to the S9 you have also new iFly15, but very different technology than the S9

http://www.catsailingnews.com/2016/10/ifly-15-in-detail.html#more

 

As above mentionned by bacho, the S9 has a great finish.

With polyester or vinylester technology, a good thick layer of gel-coat will provide you with such a great shinny finish as long as the mould has been polished carefully.

 

But gel-coat is a 50$/ Gallon technology. http://www.fiberglasssupply.com/product_catalog/gel_coats/gel_coats.html

 

If you check on CSN link above ,on the second picture of the iFly15, you will notice on the fore deck a little square of carbon.

But it is not basic carbon, it looks like a "Textreme" fabric :http://www.textreme.com/applications.

 

This technology use probably epoxy resins, which prices are very different from polyester & vinylester technologies

 

I let you check yourself the prices of such stuffs.

 

Cheers

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I do not understand what you write, you're talking about S9 or a completely different boat?

99% of what you write is not true.

It seems that you have not even watched the Website S9.

About Another cat "IF .." in my opinion it is only a trap for moschitos, some here know the real story about this boat, the reality is the opposite of what it seems, I would have much to tell about this but I prefer the quiet life.

Please, look for real information and data and then post them here.

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Newestbie,

 

It might be difficult to get a fair performance speed test between these 2 concepts.

For such a test to be reliable, it would be important to prepare a "protocol" with appropriate instruments and reliable set-up .

 

But what is possible to achieve is a kind of "relative value" analysis:

 

I mean: in France we were used to purchase Bimare A-Cat at 12000€ (Not foiler)

 

These "Classic A-Cat" "had:

13.94 sqm sail area

9 meters carbon mast with autoclave technology as adverstized

18 feet full carbon hulls

Circular track

4 straight foils.

 

So Today no former French A-Cater has already jump on the S9 at 18000€

Although this boat has:

11,5 sqm sail area

7.5 meters carbon mast autoc.............

14 feet fiberglass hulls with some carbon

Straight track

4 T foils with flaps & 2 wand-controls

 

Because, it looks to us, that the foiling hype is priced @ 8000€,

 

While I did not check the prices, it is probably more expansive than the A-Cat full foiling kit from eXploder, or even DNA.

 

I think, many US A-Caters have already ordered such kits from Europe, so you should be able to get the info on this forum, with US tax and transporataion costs

 

Doing so you would have a cleared picture, allowing you to make your own independent judgment.

 

Also, people are probably worrying regarding the future second hand market for this kind of "concept"

because It is very difficult to guess and might be full of unpleasant surprises, as it is not an established class.

 

Similar to the S9 you have also new iFly15, but very different technology than the S9

http://www.catsailingnews.com/2016/10/ifly-15-in-detail.html#more

 

As above mentionned by bacho, the S9 has a great finish.

With polyester or vinylester technology, a good thick layer of gel-coat will provide you with such a great shinny finish as long as the mould has been polished carefully.

 

But gel-coat is a 50$/ Gallon technology. http://www.fiberglasssupply.com/product_catalog/gel_coats/gel_coats.html

 

If you check on CSN link above ,on the second picture of the iFly15, you will notice on the fore deck a little square of carbon.

But it is not basic carbon, it looks like a "Textreme" fabric :http://www.textreme.com/applications.

 

This technology use probably epoxy resins, which prices are very different from polyester & vinylester technologies

 

I let you check yourself the prices of such stuffs.

 

Cheers

 

Perfect, thank you so much! So a DNA F1 A cat weighs the much less than the other two (42kg, versus 78kg and 85kg for the S9 and iFly15), and has the biggest sail area (13.9 v 11.5 and 12.5 for the S9 and iFly15), so it should be quite a bit faster. However, lighter weight, bigger sail area, and no wand system might also make it more of a challenge to control? Also, the A cat is the narrowest of the three (beam 2.3m v 2.36 and 2.55 for the S9 and iFly15), so maybe that is another factor making the A cat a bit harder to manage?

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Newesbie,

 

I don't mention the weight of DNA A-Cat or Exploder, I just mention their foiling kits = (2x Z foils + 2 L or T Rudders)

 

I make the breakdown of S9 costs using analogy with the Bimare A-Cat I have in the garage.

 

Your remark regarding the max beam is very relevant, as with foiling you have plenty of sail power due to hight apparent wind

 

Foiling A-Cat without wand seems to be easier to foil as new generation boats hit the market, even before that,

 

Last year you could see a video with a senior US sailor (70+ years old) foiling his own boat at the US national.

 

Ta

 

I do not understand what you write, you're talking about S9 or a completely different boat?
99% of what you write is not true.
It seems that you have not even watched the Website S9.
About Another cat "IF .." in my opinion it is only a trap for moschitos, some here know the real story about this boat, the reality is the opposite of what it seems, I would have much to tell about this but I prefer the quiet life.
Please, look for real information and data and then post them here.

 

You know the real story about this boat............ It is a trap for Mosquitos

 

That is your allegation, but anybody can see that the iFly15 has a deck sweeping trampoline, because, just like for A-Cat

Such a sail:

Lower the CoEffort of the sail

Decreases the induced drag which is a big part of total drag

Increases the effective Lift Coefficient

 

And all of this makes the boat easier to foil and increase performance for the same sail area.

 

Bimare should look at their concurents and try to mimic their best ideas.

 

Good week

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Bench

I repeat, it seems that you are talking about another boat different from S9, and again I say that S9 is not a Bimare product.

 

about "IF .." I can only say that has not demonstrated nothing, so I do not understand why you insist on comparing these two boats.

 

if you want to compare all the current foilers better start a new forum in which to publish the real data.

 

for info: S9 mast+sail surface is less than 10.5, top speed 24.7 knots, the whole boat is built in carbon pre-preg autoclave process, excluding hulls (fiber glass epoxy resin infusion process, spray-painted)

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Congrats ITA, I didn't notice you had jump to epoxy.

 

But you already know, there might be significant differences between the claims and the achievements when it comes this kind of technologies, like epoxy or autoclave

 

For instance, here, we had an A-Cat maker who has been claiming for years he has been usiing autoclave for its spars

 

But we never saw other boatyard equiping there platform with such a mast

 

and ironically we have been observing a significant part of this A-Cat fleet being re-equiped with FIBERFOAM.

 

In conclusion, what I mean, is your S9 looks more like a toy than like a boat but she is priced more like a boat than like a toy.

 

Regarding the "Mosquito trap" you mentioned, whaever you can say, she looks more like a boat than a toy.

 

The positive point is that European boat builders have already all noticed how CharliepMayer is a great sales professionnal.

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This conversation is absurd, tendentious, without real data, please post this shit in another forum, in this forum we'll post only truth.

Seems to talk with Catnewbuy, have you changed your name?

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Congrats ITA, I didn't notice you had jump to epoxy.

 

But you already know, there might be significant differences between the claims and the achievements when it comes this kind of technologies, like epoxy or autoclave

 

For instance, here, we had an A-Cat maker who has been claiming for years he has been usiing autoclave for its spars

 

But we never saw other boatyard equiping there platform with such a mast

 

and ironically we have been observing a significant part of this A-Cat fleet being re-equiped with FIBERFOAM.

 

In conclusion, what I mean, is your S9 looks more like a toy than like a boat but she is priced more like a boat than like a toy.

 

Regarding the "Mosquito trap" you mentioned, whaever you can say, she looks more like a boat than a toy.

 

The positive point is that European boat builders have already all noticed how CharliepMayer is a great sales professionnal.

 

What a ridiculous, asinine comment!!!!

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ita,

 

I must confess It was a little "ambush",

 

as I know you cannot resist to "defecate" **on your concurrents,

 

this new iFly15 was a perfect opportunity to trigger the "action"

 

As a side effect it is funny to see Doug Lord taking care of your interests, but believe me, on this point, it is purely unintentional

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I'm taking care of my interests bw-I started this thread . I have the greatest respect for what Michele has done and your comments were completely off the wall. Why don't you post in the i15 thread instead of messing this one up?

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ita,

 

I must confess It was a little "ambush",

 

as I know you cannot resist to "defecate" **on your concurrents,

 

this new iFly15 was a perfect opportunity to trigger the "action"

 

As a side effect it is funny to see Doug Lord taking care of your interests, but believe me, on this point, it is purely unintentional

BW,

Seems that you know well M. M. and his boat,

Ask directly to MM which evil destiny had its S9 that he bought from me,

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ita,

 

You wrote : "Seems that you know well M. M. and his boat,"

 

If for you M is the designer, builder or promoter of the iFly15, I am sorry I don't know him and did not exchange any pm with him yet.

 

When you wrote :Ask directly to MM which evil destiny had its S9 that he bought from me,

 

You are explaining me:

 

1-He is one of your former customers,

2-He bough a S9 from you, and

3-He has some issues with your boat

 

Then, like everybody else I can observe, he has been studying and building an alternative to your S9.

 

So you probably realize your message is carrying a lot of information.

 

Starting such a project after some disappointing experience with your boat, provides insightfull indication with the level of disappointment!

 

You claim you are different from bimare, but:

 

Ostracizing your customers who had reliability issues with your boats, discarding their sailing skills to explain the breakages of your stuffs, sounds pretty familiar to my ears.

 

It has been your "Client Servicing" philosophy for your A-Cat during 20 years, with .........."mitigate" results. :D

 

If you sell to the US Customers what you have been selling to some of your European customers, you might have big surprises:

 

US customers are not European customers and they will not hesitate to hire a lawyer to kick your ass. :angry:

 

Your rig design is also carrying a lot of informations on your skills:

it just testifies you did not compute the apparent wind of your boat in foiling conditions! :blink:

 

To address this point you should check "trigonometry" on Wiki it cannot be harmful. B)

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Bench Warmer

 

Micheal Miller worked for BIMARE (I don't know if paid or unpaid) for several months back in 2015 organizing and managing many testsails for catsailors potentially interested to the S 9.

The fact is confirmed by the editor of Catsailingnews on his first report on the I Fly 15.

 

QUOTE

Following Stunt 9 path, Michael Miller, who used to promote the S9 back in Punta AlA 2015, has launched a new recreational foiler the I Fly 15

UNQUOTE

 

I personally met him in Punta Ala during the A class Worlds and he was all the time behind the S 9 spending warm and passionate words about the boat.

Then for sure when he started his project, he had a deep knowledge of the design and building secrets of the S9

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Now everyone knows that in reality you are Catnewby, bravo.

But Im repeat , spray your shit in another forum .

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Charlie, the best stuff you've posted yet! Thanks!

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Howdy folks!

Well, we finally got a good day to sail yesterday.

 

In this video Will is wearing the helmet cam, John is sailing the other boat.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UI-f6gu1Cys

 

Our friend Will only got to sail with us once back when we first got the boats in the water.

Yesterday was his first sail on the S9 since then.

I asked Will to tell us his thoughts on the camera while sailing - and he did.

You can hear John and Will discussing setup and technique.

This video shows a capsize, sit-down foiling downwind at 20 mph, and the slowest documented foiling speed we've seen so far.

(Ironic since Will is the biggest sailor to sail the boat - I think 220 pounds?)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xcQm7ZAMDoQ&t=9s

 

Charlie

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Thanks to all you guys for the great video. The autonomous foiling was pretty cool(and a bit scary) but it made me wonder: are the wand systems adjustable enough that you could set them up in those conditions to keep the boat level on foils with the crew sitting in the middle of the tramp? Just curious...

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Thank you Doug, appreciate the comments.

We do have videos showing the skipper comfortably seated downwind, foiling, at up to 20 mph.

These little lightweight boats have a "wheelbase" of only a few feet, so they are quite nimble while foiling.

They can maneuver faster than the skipper can react, regardless of wands or other control systems.

 

The real issue, imho, is to keep the skipper tethered to the boat - some sort of releasable "chicken line"

unrelated to the trap system - or perhaps totally integrated into it - may be the answer.

We learned that, if the skipper stays attached to the boat, the boat just stops when the skipper falls off.

 

The videos show that in wind only about 10 mph, even capsized, these little boats will sail away faster than

the skipper can swim. Perhaps any light weight boat has the same issue. What say you, A catters and others?

 

Charlie

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The videos show that in wind only about 10 mph, even capsized, these little boats will sail away faster than

the skipper can swim. Perhaps any light weight boat has the same issue. What say you, A catters and others?

 

Charlie

Here in australia, very few, if any of us will sail alone because of this issue. There are reports of one well known Olympic medalist having to swim back in after his boat blew away and that the swim took nearly 2 hours. I also heard he story of another who needed a rescue boat to take him back to his fast disappearing boat. I am told the key is to never let go of the mainsheet, which sounds easier to say than to do. Some time ago, I lost my footing and swung round the frontending up between the hull and front beam, with the boat continuing to sail straight at speed. I struggled to hold on and couldn't pull myself up because of the water speed. After what seemed like minutes, but am am sure wasn't, the boat headed up enough to slow and I was able to get back on board. Some of this isn't new because of foiling, but the chances of being separated are getting higher.

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All to often I've had the experience of being off the boat and it sailing away but have learned that

 

A/ hanging onto the tiller stick, just breaks it ( but if you put a piece of line up the inside of it knotted at each end, when it does break you still are attached to the boat and can usually get back on despite the broken tiller ).

B/ hanging onto the main just tightens it and makes the boat go faster.

C/ the travelor is the one to go for and I now try and not cleat the travelor when on my own and going fast,using the travelor out of its cleat to control the speed. When you come off the sail tends to go all the ways across and if you keep a bit of lee helm on the rudder system, it tends to eventually turn up or the boat tips over.

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Howdy folks!

Well, we finally got a good day to sail yesterday.

 

In this video Will is wearing the helmet cam, John is sailing the other boat.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UI-f6gu1Cys

 

Our friend Will only got to sail with us once back when we first got the boats in the water.

Yesterday was his first sail on the S9 since then.

I asked Will to tell us his thoughts on the camera while sailing - and he did.

You can hear John and Will discussing setup and technique.

This video shows a capsize, sit-down foiling downwind at 20 mph, and the slowest documented foiling speed we've seen so far.

(Ironic since Will is the biggest sailor to sail the boat - I think 220 pounds?)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xcQm7ZAMDoQ&t=9s

 

Charlie

hi Charlie ,

good to see some funny action , not bored.

hope much more fun with the others S9 next months .

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Fulcrum Speedworks put this out on their Facebook page.

BIG Website update including a thorough FAQ and detailed description of the stuff that goes into the UFO. Check it out
http://www.fulcrumspeedworks.com/UFO/

Their Facebook page is https://www.facebook.com/fulcrumspeedworks/
Hint the price for the UFO is under $8,000

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The UFO is a cool boat. The price point is very attractive. I truly hope it brings foiling to the masses. There is a little smoke and mirrors going on with it in my opinion. The video with the Wazp portrays its the same speed or faster than a Wazp. That is a false. The UFO is no speedster. That is not a bad thing. I just think it's false advertising. Personally I think the S9 is more stable and easier/less work than the UFO. It's really 2 different markets. Yes the S9 is more expensive it's also a proper boat. I think the old dudes that want to go foiling before than can't sail anymore have a better chance on the S9. I am just speaking up because the UFO guy is bombing this thread. It's really kinda lame. Let's hope both of these boats takeoff.

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The UFO is a cool boat. The price point is very attractive. I truly hope it brings foiling to the masses. There is a little smoke and mirrors going on with it in my opinion. The video with the Wazp portrays its the same speed or faster than a Wazp. That is a false. The UFO is no speedster. That is not a bad thing. I just think it's false advertising. Personally I think the S9 is more stable and easier/less work than the UFO. It's really 2 different markets. Yes the S9 is more expensive it's also a proper boat. I think the old dudes that want to go foiling before than can't sail anymore have a better chance on the S9. I am just speaking up because the UFO guy is bombing this thread. It's really kinda lame. Let's hope both of these boats takeoff.

Yeah I don't know who that guy is and why he posted that to this thread. It's a wee bit rude. Let's keep discussion of each boat to its respective thread. Honestly, I put that bit of running down the waszp in that video because I'm just personally really excited about running down a Waszp. We do have less foil area and air drag than the waszp, so it's kind of blurry which boat is advantaged at which point of sail and at what windspeeds, but at no point have I gone around declaring that the UFO is faster than the Waszp. That said, as the one person who has lined up a UFO against a Waszp a few times in the last few months, I can say don't be sure the UFO is by default slower. So I frankly don't think that video is really misleading either. Our lifting foils are composite with eliptical planforms, and theirs are capped aluminum. You can beat a Waszp with a UFO if you outsail your opponent. That's true of any pair of different boats sailed by different humans. I've seen and S9 in action, and it's clearly more luxurious than either the UFO or the Waszp. Michelle has done a excellent job nailing his target. All three boats are clearly aimed at different markets, though.

 

DRC

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We had a little quiet time here, but in a month we will have many news.

upgrade on S9, all aboutS9 one-design class,

But also a new extreme project, some people call it buldog or beast, but I prefer to call S1.

Here is a preview of the rough prototype

post-48865-0-06370900-1481392564_thumb.jpg

post-48865-0-83339000-1481392586_thumb.jpg

post-48865-0-14437700-1481392613_thumb.jpg

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Hi everybody, hope you are all staying warm and dry.

I've used both my S9s for almost a year for "buddy sailing" with my friends - it was great fun!

Now that we have nine boats in the US, it's time for one of my buddies to sail their own S9,

so I am selling one of my S9s and clearing out my driveway.

Please check the classifieds.

(yes, I did buy an ad)

 

I am still happy to give rides on my boat here at Canyon Lake - the water is not very cold.

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Hi Charlie ,

Its only a simple base , now we need add all our pictures of fun moments , we have also a blog .

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Charlie and/or Michele: whats the lightest wind the S9 will foil well in? Thanks.

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Hi Doug, only one data point from me - need to get info from the others - we can start foiling with 10 mph boat speed.

Usually that's about 8 mph wind speed - but - once you are up, you can continue flying, but not robustly, with lower wind - 6 mph or so ?

It's a struggle with light puffy wind - very frustrating.

Once you get wind 12 mph or above things get pretty easily - but we don't get that very often here.

This is not an easy question to answer definitively - too many variables.

Hope this helps,

Charlie

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Thanks, Charlie-just wanted a rough idea.....

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Greath staff Charlie , well done .

Gybe will be more simple and easy with the upgrade .

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One-year report:

The mental issue - much of what you did naturally on your old cat is just wrong on this boat. You will experience foil-induced odd attitudes and boat behavior.

When the boat does something strange like falling to windward, don’t panic, but hold onto the sheet, and wait for the boat to settle down.

You cannot make quick tiller movements and remain on the boat - you must be very very smooth on the tiller - especially bearing off at speed.

If you are going to wipe out, release the stick but hold on to the sheet. It won’t get away from you if you hold the sheet.

We’ve broken six sticks and overstretched a lot of bungee cord. The boat is easy to right, but don’t stand on the boards to get it up.

Boat setup: mast, rudder, and main board rake should be meticulously set up before you go out.

Check adjustments after crashes and incidents with tow ropes and mooring lines.

Setup guide is available - pm me.

Sailing technique: Travel out about 8 inches, get up some speed, and get on the wire as soon as you can. The boat will pop up and accelerate nicely - be ready for that. If the boat starts to heel to weather sheet in, step forward, and bear off. If you can anticipate this and keep the boat level you will be in great shape. If you are too slow in making this correction the boat will dump you to windward or even hop out of the water. Don’t heel to leeward like your old boat - that is slow. Travel out, de-rotate, sheet out, or max the outhaul and downhaul - whatever - to keep it flat and flying.

Light air: disconnect the foils from the wands, take a few turns on the adjuster to lessen foil aoa and raise the wands. Makes a huge difference in the lighter winds. Shouldn't need to do this as much after the jib kit gets here!

Maneuvers: the biggest wipeouts occur when tacking or gybing while in flight mode. John’s instructions for tacking: travel in, step forward, head up to slow down and fall off the foils, and execute a normal tack - don’t forget to move the traveler back down. The whole thing can be done quite quickly - just takes practice. We don’t have enough time in higher winds to know if a flying tack is possible. Gybing while sitting on the boat is uneventful, but you must hold on to something to keep from being pitched off - it rotates very quickly. Flying gybes are becoming routine for John - not so much for the rest of us. It is possible to go downwind quickly and deeply while on the wire - but so far I haven’t figured out how to get off the wire in those conditions to gybe - anything I do upsets the equilibrium and things get chaotic.

The boat: one of the pins pulled out of an original gudgeon - Michele immediately sent me new ones with riveted-in pins. I think all new boats now come with those. No trouble since then.

I have a difficult time seeing the telltales on the leeward side - the glare from the mylar is overwhelming - not unique to this boat, but still an annoyance - I end up stalling too often.

We added rubber spacers between the rudder and the rudder housing as a precaution to limit rudder movement fore-and-aft (a lesson from the Phantom). Had to replace the halyards after the neighborhood juvenile delinquent cut them up - not a boat issue I guess. We use a golf cart and launch at a boat ramp directly from the trailer - fast, easy, and a simple one-person operation.

 

Would be nice to hear from the guys in Florida - I’m sure they have as much experience by now as we do. I’ll revise this as we get more feedback.

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Sorry for the lack of exciting videos. As we've learned to sail the boat we don't have any more crashes or autonomous sailing videos to share.

The new videos are straight-line foiling and displacement tacks and gybes. Very challenging to the sailor, but kinda boring to watch on a video.

Here is how we launch:

 

post-41294-0-63020600-1489630494_thumb.jpg

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We walk the boat out and tie it off while we dress out.

There are round orange fenders on the port side keeping the main foil off of the dock when we walk the boat out and when we board. The fender diameter is larger than the foil overhang.

 

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Charlie, I click on your link and my video page comes up! I've never had that happen before....

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