• Announcements

    • Zapata

      Abbreviated rules   07/28/2017

      Underdawg did an excellent job of explaining the rules.  Here's the simplified version: Don't insinuate Pedo.  Warning and or timeout for a first offense.  PermaFlick for any subsequent offenses Don't out members.  See above for penalties.  Caveat:  if you have ever used your own real name or personal information here on the forums since, like, ever - it doesn't count and you are fair game. If you see spam posts, report it to the mods.  We do not hang out in every thread 24/7 If you see any of the above, report it to the mods by hitting the Report button in the offending post.   We do not take action for foul language, off-subject content, or abusive behavior unless it escalates to persistent stalking.  There may be times that we might warn someone or flick someone for something particularly egregious.  There is no standard, we will know it when we see it.  If you continually report things that do not fall into rules #1 or 2 above, you may very well get a timeout yourself for annoying the Mods with repeated whining.  Use your best judgement. Warnings, timeouts, suspensions and flicks are arbitrary and capricious.  Deal with it.  Welcome to anarchy.   If you are a newbie, there are unwritten rules to adhere to.  They will be explained to you soon enough.  
Doug Lord

14' Stunt S9 Foiling Cat

559 posts in this topic

A question for Michele:

looking at the web site of the Congrega Velisti Cesenatico, the organizing authority of the well known Easter multihull regatta ("Vele di Pasqua"), I found that no 9 S9 are so far pre-registered.

How many of them are the new sloop version (let's call it the SL9)?

I am curious to learn if the SL9 is faster than the unirigged S9 on a standard upwind/downwind racecourse

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Yes . More faster , also in light wind , start foiling in 5 knods , but seems that we can use jib up to 20 knots wind .

Much faster and much stable .

Even in floating mode seems wery fast and good angle to wind .

Sinple rigging ,

Someone call it S9 turbo

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Thanks Michele, but you forgot to say how many S9 Turbo will be sailing at Cesenatico against standard S9s.

And please keep us informed on the final results of the biggest S9 regatta ever

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

7 S9 turbo , 2 standard.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Important that everybody understand how rewarding it is to learn foiling. The thrill from foiling is well worth the challenges! Still seems like magic to see the whole boat out of the water. You will figure it out - easier than learning windsurfing.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Re: post April 09: it was quite stupid of me to foil around between a bulkhead and a fleet of keelboats loitering for a start. 1) I did not anticipate the acceleration onto foils as I bore off. and 2) I had no escape route planned. The lesson I think is that foilers have to plan the next move far ahead of what our prior experience has taught us - need to anticipate the acceleration and change to flight mode. In my case I was simply a little embarrassed. A few days later I saw BAR ram a dock in similar tight quarters. I wish no harm to BAR, but I discovered I was not the only one learning these lessons.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Finally we had the opportunity to compete with other classes like Tornado, hobie 16, A cat,

was the first race of the Italian S9 class championship

not good wind, really light , wery good condition for A cat , wich we use as a yardstick because A cat are the best races cat in this wind condition .

but results are wery good , we are happy .

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

New videos on YouTube. Some with the turbo kit - a nice addition.

 

Some are uncut. You can see us stalling and dropping down, doing unanticipated hops, whatever mistakes - all great fun.

 

We have a nice place to sail, hope you enjoy the videos.

 

Many thanks to Bubba for the drone videos: good job!

 

Again, many thanks to Judson.

 

John, please slow down so we can get everyone in the same frame :mellow: .

 

More Turbo videos tomorrow.

 

Charlie

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kIFQfrzK_eQ

 

https://www.youtube.com/edit?o=U&video_id=e0L-EdG2Ajg

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7UNZNJ7YBnA

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I watched the 1st video & was especially interested in the portion after about 5:15, when the boat is on starboard tack & you can see the wake from the forward foil sweeping aft & sometimes impinging on the aft foil. At times some spray from the rudder/aft foil is visible above the crossbeam, but it doesn't seem to correlate with when the forward wake hits the rudder.

 

Are you aware of any effects from this kind of thing?

 

I was going to let you know that I've made some crude attempts to get videos of the same phenomenon on my Moth, but I see from the 2nd link that you already know that.

 

It's interesting to read about your experiences with the S9 & to watch the videos. It looks like you're having lots of fun!

post-21863-0-51844200-1493039795_thumb.png

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Funny-again I click on that url and go to my youtube video list!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Doug Halsey: thank you - yes we are having a ball - displacement boats just don't "look right" to us any more.

The rudders are canted outward from top to bottom, and they are not mounted on the centerline as are the boards.

Michele stated that this design helps to keep board flow from interfering with the rudders. Amazing to me that we get

speeds in the 20s in those light winds - but I guess you get that a lot on the Moth.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Doug: hmmm - don't know why that happens.

 

Another video coming this morning after processing - long downwind, testing sitting vs trapping, some good gybes.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Didn't happen on 2 out of 3 of the first videos!?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

S9 Turbo comments: haven't heard about the Turbo kit from Judson yet, I hope to get mine out Wednesday.

Here is a summary of what John reports so far:

* trapping downwind is faster and lower than sitting

* main traveler can be centered more with the jib - should help with upwind angles

* rudders are not as loaded up as with the unirig

 

More later.

 

Charlie

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Latest video here: https://www.youtube.com/edit?o=U&video_id=p_0XCOOOL6o

 

Helmet cam: S9 Turbo, long 15 minute run, 6 gybes, uncut, Tomko

 

6 gybes with minimum speeds coming out of the gybe:

1:10 - 11 mph, 4:25 - 13 mph, 5:15 - 12 mph

10:50 - 8 mph, 12:20 - 8 mph, 12:58 - 13 mph - (best one)

(kayak dodge at 8:45)

When I click on that link, I get my videos again & it gives the following as the url: https://www.youtube.com/my_videos?o=U

They must have folders with the same names several places, making it tricky to know the right one to paste into your posts.

I don't entirely understand it either.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Latest video here: https://www.youtube.com/edit?o=U&video_id=p_0XCOOOL6o

 

Helmet cam: S9 Turbo, long 15 minute run, 6 gybes, uncut, Tomko

 

6 gybes with minimum speeds coming out of the gybe:

1:10 - 11 mph, 4:25 - 13 mph, 5:15 - 12 mph

10:50 - 8 mph, 12:20 - 8 mph, 12:58 - 13 mph - (best one)

(kayak dodge at 8:45)

Those are all too slow to stay on the foils, aren't they?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Odd - I get to the video with that link - and this one, too:

 

Latest video here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p_0XCOOOL6o&t=8s
Helmet cam: S9 Turbo, long 15 minute run, 6 gybes, uncut, Tomko

6 gybes with minimum speeds coming out of the gybe:
1:10 - 11 mph, 4:25 - 13 mph, 5:15 - 12 mph
10:50 - 8 mph, 12:20 - 8 mph, 12:58 - 13 mph - (best one)
(kayak dodge at 8:45)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Doug Halsey: the S9 starts foiling at about 10 mph boat speed - but it has to be flat: fore-aft-port-starboard.

That's when all 4 foils develop max lift. It will stay foiling below that if allowed to just coast down to a stall,

but realistically 10 mph is a pretty good number.

The 10 mph seems to apply to skippers from 149 pounds to about 214. We didn't expect that.

Don't know why. The videos should back this up, as I recall.

 

The gybes at 8 mph were definitely not foiling - the 13 mph ones were flying I think - especially the last one.

Not always easy to tell if the entire boat is held up by the foils - pretty dynamic situation.

In any case, if done correctly, you are clearly foiling again within a second or two, at most.

 

Seems like we get better VMG upwind when we are in "skimming" mode rather than full foiling.

Not sure yet - everything changes so much with windspeed changes.

Still a lot of testing to do. Hard work, but I guess somebody has to do it :) .

 

Charlie

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Charlie, how much wind doe it take to get 10mph boat speed upwind and offwind?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Hi Doug, I don't remember how I answered a similar question before, so forgive me if this one is different, but I think about 8 mph will get us up.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Tuning guide is available if anybody wants it. PM me.

Anybody else have feedback on the Turbo kit?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Charlie - I'm interested in the tuning guide :-) -- I'm maintaining a similar doc with notes about Whisper rigging and tuning. My email addr is martin.langhoff@gmail.com

 

Whisper notes -- still early days -- at https://martin-langhoff.github.io/whisper-foiling-catamaran/

 

One other point I'm curious about. Is there an option for the S9 to have slide-down rudders, as Whispers and Phantoms do? In some locations you have to sail a bit in shallow waters to get to your ramp/beach...

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QrHXOul-YnQ

 

I think the link above will take you to the S9Turbo test from Friday. Please let me know if the link works - or not.

 

Extra power upwind was impressive. Still difficult to make good vmg while foiling upwind.

Tried sitting downwind and going as low as I could and still foil - probably much too low for the jib to make much difference.

Did have to change rudder rake.

 

John prefers trapping downwind - lower and faster.

 

Still some rigging and fine tuning to do - will have pics soon.

 

Thank you,

Charlie

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Charlie

I have watched your latest video and would make a few observations.

 

It looks to me like you aren't doing anything with mast rotation. Downwind, i understand it being fully off but it seems to me that upwind, it is also fully off and I suspect you will get higher speeds with less rotation.

 

I guess the sitting in vs trapezing and going for it are personal choices. I would imagine that sitting in is significantly slower but less likely to end in a mess, although if you did stuff the nose in, there would be so much more to hurt yourself on as you pitch forward. It looks like the jib isn't doing anything worthwhile. If i understand you correctly, going for it leads to not only faster speeds but because the apparent goes forward, you end up sailing lower as well. This is what I would expect.

 

I am slightly puzzled about the balance of the boat, particularly upwind. It would seem strange fo the boat to feel good either with or without jib, so are you changing anything, such as mast rake, to balance the boat for the different rigs.

 

The big question is whether the improvements are due to the extra area or the aero advantages of a jib. This might become clearer as you compare performance in different wind conditions.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

ACS: Thank you for your comments. It's nice to know somebody watches with a critical eye. That's what I hope for.




It looks to me like you aren't doing anything with mast rotation. Downwind, i understand it being fully off but it seems to me that upwind, it is also fully off and I suspect you will get higher speeds with less rotation. Yes, the crew did not pull the rotation back for the upwind leg. Hard to find good crew.



I guess the sitting in vs trapezing and going for it are personal choices. I would imagine that sitting in is significantly slower but less likely to end in a mess, although if you did stuff the nose in, there would be so much more to hurt yourself on as you pitch forward. It looks like the jib isn't doing anything worthwhile. If i understand you correctly, going for it leads to not only faster speeds but because the apparent goes forward, you end up sailing lower as well. This is what I would expect. Using the trap downwind is not difficult - it's the re-boarding that is tricky. Downwind, at speed, the helm is very sensitive. My number one goal when sailing alone is to stay on the boat. In the last video I was out there alone - no chase boat. If the helm wiggles while I am coming in off the trap I'll be off in a flash. Don't ask me how I know this.



Yes, sailing too low negates the jib, as you noticed. Might as well not have it when sailing that low.



Sitting while foiling downwind was a bit unnerving at first. Every time those short little bows started down I thought I was gone. After the first couple of runs I learned to trust the boat - as the bows dip, the wand commands more "up" on the main foils, and all ends well. I don't think would happen without the wands. I'll get more practice downwind on the wire - but only with backup of some sort, for now anyway.



I am slightly puzzled about the balance of the boat, particularly upwind. It would seem strange fo the boat to feel good either with or without jib, so are you changing anything, such as mast rake, to balance the boat for the different rigs. Boat feels pretty conventional upwind with the unirig, especially in high mode. This was my first time out with the jib. Really different. Need more time on the water to figure it out. Need to tension jib halyard more - sail would flop if I went high at speed. Seems to me the jib pulled the boat down, especially in the gusts. Slot too tight? Don't know yet. Only change I made so far was on the rudder rake, and that may have been the wrong thing to do. It would be good if we get by with no rig changes.



The big question is whether the improvements are due to the extra area or the aero advantages of a jib. This might become clearer as you compare performance in different wind conditions. Agree completely.



ACS, again, thank you for your observations, please continue.



Charlie

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

4 S9 arrive to Noumea ( New Caledonia)

First fleet on Pacific sea . 

FB_IMG_1494154207286.jpg

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Michele, did Martin Fischer get one? He lives there last I knew....

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

No , but Martin is a friend of Noumea guys , same club .

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

S9 Turbo test - round two (5 hours!).

Wind 4mph-14mph, gusty, shifty - South to ESE, nasty boat chop.

Light shifty air, light boat, bad chop - not ideal.

Moved the jib down, directly shackled to the pole.  Improved jib sheeting system - 4:1, small line, low drag.

Opened up jib traveler - normal position now about two inches from max travel.  No more choking.

New systems eliminated jib luff slatting - adequate tension now easy to achieve.

Our local Yacht Club RC graciously allowed me to race with the Board Boats as long as I didn't interfere with the racers - thank you Fred!

First two races were low wind, shifty, bad boat chop.  I kept the foils in foiling mode - max drag.  Mistake.  Like sailing with the brakes on.  Embarrassing.  

Third race I disconnected the flaps, released tension on the wands and sailed it like a floater.  Quite a difference - much better result.

Looks like determining when to go to floating vs foiling mode will be important in light air races.  We'll see.

My 2 cents:  in light air - floating mode only. In medium and heavy air: floating mode upwind, foiling down.  Blowing like stink: skimming upwind, foiling down.

Upwind foiling just does not work for me - a heavier skipper may have a different result.  I give up too much angle to get it foiling.

Ok, play time after the races - wind now abut 14 mph,  a lot steadier.  Jib offers a lot more power.  When it grabs there is quite an acceleration.   

Have to run less rotation on the main to keep spreaders out of the jib.  Upwind foiling easier - but without a rabbit boat hard to tell if that is good.

Downwind:  ok, jib now great.  Jib sheet and traveler limits can be adjusted,  At my max release on both, jib draws great, gives proper indications and works well with the main.  No jib adjustments required downwind.  Easier work load - sail to the jib telltales.  Downwind foiling only requires gentle steering, not fighting it like in first video.  In the lulls the jib seems to pull through a little longer than with main alone.  More power through the gybes, tacking much easier.

Helm: heavier at speed than with main alone.  Slight and unpredictable tendency for fully neutral helm upwind.  Don't let go the stick!

Overall the jib adds complexity and power.  Beginners should stick to main only - pretty sweet ride in good wind.

Would be interested if there is anything here to compare with your experience.  Speak up, please.

No video today.  Will try again on Tuesday - my 64th birthday!

Fair winds,

Charlie

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 Its now ufficial on web ,

SCHRS ISAF SMALL CATAMARAN HANDICAP RATING SYSTEM 

S9 = 1.107 

Really good rating

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The cat is currently available for testing in my club. I couldn't try it this week, but lots of friends with different experience did, and I had the chance to line-up with a very good cat guy that was driving it 2 weeks ago

First EVERYBODY who has tried it, said that is incredibly easy to fly, a lot easier than a moth or a waszp. a good skiff guy (who also does foil-kiting) was able to foil-gybe on day one.

Secondly, angles. Downwind speed is similar to my moth, but the S9 goes a bit higher, so it's slightly worse VMG. Upwind in medium wind I had a much better VMG everytime. It seems like on the S9 the best upwind VMG is very close between skimming and foiling, because the boat to fly needs to bear away quite a lot (I'd say ballpark 55°-60° AOA); I suspect though that upwind foiling will be very much dependent on skill and experience, as it is with the A; so maybe very good people will find a way to keep it on the foils fast while going pretty close hauled.

Overall it seems like a very good boat! Impressed! I don't really have a lot of free time (and I need to bloody train for the worlds), but maybe next sunday I'll give it a shot.

Michele

 

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Longneck Regatta report (first regatta in this hemisphere with a fleet of S9s):

Canyon Lake Texas - May 20 and 21, 2017

Five classes: F18, spin boats, non-spin boats, Hobie 17, S9.  Four boats in the S9 fleet - one Classic and three Turbos.

Between races the S9 skippers met up on the water to discuss setup.   Even did some boat swapping - made it hard for the Race Committee to score - thank you Race Committee!

Skippers: me, Judson Holt (S9 owner and sponsor of the Lupe Tortilla Phantom team), Shannon Galway (owner of a Phantom), and Matt (Shannon’s Phantom crew).

Shannon and Matt had their first sail on the S9 on Friday - wind in the low 20 mph range.  They were both foiling immediately, with one flying gybe reported by Shannon.  Happy as school kids that evening.  Previous Phantom training showed!

Winds for the regatta were light and variable, RC says Beaufort 2-3, some useful gusts, especially on Sunday.  First three races on Saturday:  two S9Ts raced with full foils, one S9T and the S9C raced with main and rudder foils removed.  In this light wind the boats without foils were noticeably quicker.  The SCHRS handicap has the S9 between a Hobie 17 and a Hobie 18.  Experience in light air without foils showed that number to be right on.  Witnessed brief downwind foiling by one S9 all day.

Races 4 and 5 on Sunday all four boats had full foils in anticipation of stronger wind.  Wind was better than Saturday, but still not enough.  I spent about three minutes foiling - and that was in the gusts.  These conditions were just too light for the foils - we would have been far faster without them.

Conclusions:  

  1. Handicap seems about right in light air with no foils
  2. Jib: tacks are much cleaner, stalls are avoided in the light shifty air, more speed
  3. In wind < about 12 knots, the S9 is faster with the foils removed (4 screws - 2 minutes) 

Fair winds,

Charlie

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Moral of the story, never tangle with someone bigger than you.

Go and talk to a glider repair shop used to high tech composite repairs and you would never know its had a tiff. We used to take bits of crashed gliders and make full pieces that was near enough the same weight as prior to the accident. It can be done and done well, just as strong.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
23 hours ago, 17mika said:

The cat is currently available for testing in my club. I couldn't try it this week, but lots of friends with different experience did, and I had the chance to line-up with a very good cat guy that was driving it 2 weeks ago

First EVERYBODY who has tried it, said that is incredibly easy to fly, a lot easier than a moth or a waszp. a good skiff guy (who also does foil-kiting) was able to foil-gybe on day one.

Secondly, angles. Downwind speed is similar to my moth, but the S9 goes a bit higher, so it's slightly worse VMG. Upwind in medium wind I had a much better VMG everytime. It seems like on the S9 the best upwind VMG is very close between skimming and foiling, because the boat to fly needs to bear away quite a lot (I'd say ballpark 55°-60° AOA); I suspect though that upwind foiling will be very much dependent on skill and experience, as it is with the A; so maybe very good people will find a way to keep it on the foils fast while going pretty close hauled.

Overall it seems like a very good boat! Impressed! I don't really have a lot of free time (and I need to bloody train for the worlds), but maybe next sunday I'll give it a shot.

Michele

 

 

 

Mika , Im immagin that you know Luca or Elia , can you make a test with both  boats ? S9 and Moth !

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
15 hours ago, Charlie P Mayer said:

Longneck Regatta report (first regatta in this hemisphere with a fleet of S9s):

Canyon Lake Texas - May 20 and 21, 2017

Five classes: F18, spin boats, non-spin boats, Hobie 17, S9.  Four boats in the S9 fleet - one Classic and three Turbos.

Between races the S9 skippers met up on the water to discuss setup.   Even did some boat swapping - made it hard for the Race Committee to score - thank you Race Committee!

Skippers: me, Judson Holt (S9 owner and sponsor of the Lupe Tortilla Phantom team), Shannon Galway (owner of a Phantom), and Matt (Shannon’s Phantom crew).

Shannon and Matt had their first sail on the S9 on Friday - wind in the low 20 mph range.  They were both foiling immediately, with one flying gybe reported by Shannon.  Happy as school kids that evening.  Previous Phantom training showed!

Winds for the regatta were light and variable, RC says Beaufort 2-3, some useful gusts, especially on Sunday.  First three races on Saturday:  two S9Ts raced with full foils, one S9T and the S9C raced with main and rudder foils removed.  In this light wind the boats without foils were noticeably quicker.  The SCHRS handicap has the S9 between a Hobie 17 and a Hobie 18.  Experience in light air without foils showed that number to be right on.  Witnessed brief downwind foiling by one S9 all day.

Races 4 and 5 on Sunday all four boats had full foils in anticipation of stronger wind.  Wind was better than Saturday, but still not enough.  I spent about three minutes foiling - and that was in the gusts.  These conditions were just too light for the foils - we would have been far faster without them.

Conclusions:  

  1. Handicap seems about right in light air with no foils
  2. Jib: tacks are much cleaner, stalls are avoided in the light shifty air, more speed
  3. In wind < about 12 knots, the S9 is faster with the foils removed (4 screws - 2 minutes) 

Fair winds,

Charlie

Charlie ,  that is a wery good test , 4 S9 , different setup , with or without foils , many data to work on .

Thanks 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
33 minutes ago, ita 16 said:

Mika , Im immagin that you know Luca or Elia , can you make a test with both  boats ? S9 and Moth !

Ciao Michele. Se non ricordo male 3 settimane fa ho conosciuto Elia a Dongo, e poi ho fatto un paio di bordi appaiato a lui fuori, io in moth e lui con l'S9.

Faccio riferimento a quel momento quando ho scritto di performance relative nel post; pensa che avevo anche dei video fatti con la gopro della mia barca, che poi ho cancellato. In sostanza in 12 nodi di lasco velocità simile ma io poggiavo un po' di più, di bolina invece per volare e stare su lui doveva poggiare molto più di me... VMG differentissima.

Se ti interessa qualche info o confronto, domenica e tutto il we del 2 giugno sono su ad allenarmi in moth, e nel caso mi metto d'accordo con loro. Se per Luca intendi Botta, ho scambiato 2 impressioni con lui domenica pomeriggio quando è rientrato dall'uscita con l'S9, era contentissimo del lasco (ha strambato in volo), mentre non riusciva bene a farla partire stringendo di bolina.

PS io sono Michele Trimarchi, piacere di conoscerti.

 

 

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
17 hours ago, Charlie P Mayer said:

 

Conclusions:  

  1. Handicap seems about right in light air with no foils
  2. Jib: tacks are much cleaner, stalls are avoided in the light shifty air, more speed
  3. In wind < about 12 knots, the S9 is faster with the foils removed (4 screws - 2 minutes) 

Fair winds,

Charlie

As usual, thanks Charlie for a great report. I have 2 questions about your conclusions.

Are you allowed to change the foils during an event? Is it defined in the class rule? The Moths do change their foils during events but on the A's you cannot.

You say that in < about 12 knots removing then foils leads to a quicker boat and I assume that is overall around the race course. If you were only sailing upwind, or only sailing downwind, how does that change the picture? I suspect that you would use foils downwind in lighter winds than you would upwind.

Do you think that the limiting factor in the cross over between using foils or not is the sailor or the set up? Does it change with the weight of the sailor?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, 17mika said:

Ciao Michele. Se non ricordo male 3 settimane fa ho conosciuto Elia a Dongo, e poi ho fatto un paio di bordi appaiato a lui fuori, io in moth e lui con l'S9.

Faccio riferimento a quel momento quando ho scritto di performance relative nel post; pensa che avevo anche dei video fatti con la gopro della mia barca, che poi ho cancellato. In sostanza in 12 nodi di lasco velocità simile ma io poggiavo un po' di più, di bolina invece per volare e stare su lui doveva poggiare molto più di me... VMG differentissima.

Se ti interessa qualche info o confronto, domenica e tutto il we del 2 giugno sono su ad allenarmi in moth, e nel caso mi metto d'accordo con loro. Se per Luca intendi Botta, ho scambiato 2 impressioni con lui domenica pomeriggio quando è rientrato dall'uscita con l'S9, era contentissimo del lasco (ha strambato in volo), mentre non riusciva bene a farla partire stringendo di bolina.

PS io sono Michele Trimarchi, piacere di conoscerti.

====================================

Gtran:

Hi Michele. If I do not remember bad 3 weeks ago I met Elia at Dongo, and then I made a couple of edges pitted out to him, I in moth and he with the S9. I refer to that moment when I wrote about relative performance in the post; I think I also had videos made with the gopro of my boat, which I then deleted. Basically in 12 knots of similar speed but I leaned a bit more, flying instead to fly and stay on him had to rely far more than me ... VMG very different. If you're interested in some info or comparison, Sunday and all of us on June 2 are going to train in moth, and if I get along with them. If for Luca you mean Botta, I exchanged 2 impressions with him Sunday afternoon when he came back from leaving the S9, he was delighted with the fly (fluttering in flight) while he could not get it started shaking. PS I am Michele Trimarchi, a pleasure to meet you.

 

 

 

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

A Class Sailor:  Thank you for the kind words.  

Right now we are more concerned with how to sail the boat than class rules, which I think are still being developed.  We are indeed blessed with skippers that are more concerned with learning the boat and learning foiling than collecting trophies.  The result is a group of sailors that share information, teach each other, swap boats, experiment with foil configurations and just plain old have fun.  Too soon to have a serious competitive fleet.  

Yes, in lighter air, even if you could foil downwind a bit, it is faster around the course without any foils. (from practical experience, several races and skippers)

Skipper weight (within reason) doesn't seem to matter much with respect to foiling or not - I do not yet understand this.

Upwind, in anything less than about 18 mph, I think the boat has better vmg without any foils.  (Consider: 13 ft 7 inches, 10 sq meters sail area)

Downwind on the foils is still a great thrill.  The harder it blows the deeper you can foil.  In anything over 17 mph or so you are passing over the waves and looking forward for the wind.  Might be routine for the experienced A and Moth sailors, but still quite a hoot for an old timer like me. 

We just do not have enough data points to determine anything else yet.  We've only had one regatta with more than one S9.

Still a lot to learn.  We really need to get these boats to the Texas coast to play in some good wind.  Our little lake is beautiful but the wind is, um, a little inconsistent.

Would love to hear reports from other S9 groups: UK, New Caledonia, Italy (hello Federico!), anybody?

Charlie

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

More:  all upwind: no foils:  all downwind: foils in anything over 12 mph, around the course: depends on the wind.

Determining when to go floater vs foiling is key: imho: no whitecaps, no foils.

On a windward-leeward course a boat that foils only on a reach is pretty slow.  Perhaps the Trifoiler and Rave are in this category (but still fun).

The S9 is a different animal:  good in low-wind foil-less racing, great with foils when it blows like stink.

My 2 cents,

Charlie

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I'm a little disappointed in the S9 if you're really saying that it only foils in a 12mph wind and up? I must have missed something? The Rave need about 12 mph to foil(though Dr. Sam said it would fly in 8 knots-it wouldn't for me).

The thing that's concerning is that some boats are being specifically designed to take-off in light air(Whisper=5 knots, Quant 23 foiling keelboat=5 knots) and I think Michele had said something(I may not remember correctly) about the boat taking off in 7 knots of wind.

I'd sure like to hear more about this from Charlie and Michele! Please correct me if I have it wrong........

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Hi Doug!  The boat will foil when boat speed gets to 10 mph.   On a reach that is about 7 or 8 knots of wind.

This is well documented in gps-enabled videos with several skippers on different boats in different conditions.

But: recreational foiling is different from foiling upwind and downwind competitively against other boats, even other S9s.

We can foil upwind fairly easily, but in a race you give up so much angle that vmg is better without foiling.  

I believe other posters on this forum have reported something similar.

Foiling downwind pays off in less wind, but in light air whatever gains you make are quickly lost when you turn the bottom mark and head up again. 

The harder it blows the more foiling pays off - on any heading.  With wind at 20, the other boats are shedding power while the S9 just comes alive.

 

I don't know how Moths and other foilers fare in light winds - I have no experience or observations there.

 

Doug, we're not in any way disappointed with the S9.  The fact that we can remove the foils to be competitive in light airs is a real advantage.

(This can be done on the water - but you will get wet, and you better not drop anything.)

We wouldn't have this option if the foils were permanently attached to the rudders and boards.

 

Just a thought:

The S9 rudders, boards, and mainsail have a pretty high aspect ratio.

I am not a boat designer, but aren't these characteristics optimal for boats with apparent wind well forward?

If so, it is no surprise that light wind is suboptimal for the S9, because in light air we (I) just can't generate enough apparent wind for the foils and sail to be efficient.

But this topic is not my forté - it is more for you designer types - I am just a user.

Fair winds, 

Charlie

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Is there any way to adjust the ride height on opposite hulls to get the S9 to lean a little to windward? It probably isn't possible to get the 20 degrees that might be ideal without the windward hull touching down, but it might make enough difference in VMG to make foiling upwind useful when racing.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, Charlie P Mayer said:

Hi Doug!  The boat will foil when boat speed gets to 10 mph.   On a reach that is about 7 or 8 knots of wind.

This is well documented in gps-enabled videos with several skippers on different boats in different conditions.

But: recreational foiling is different from foiling upwind and downwind competitively against other boats, even other S9s.

We can foil upwind fairly easily, but in a race you give up so much angle that vmg is better without foiling.  

I believe other posters on this forum have reported something similar.

Foiling downwind pays off in less wind, but in light air whatever gains you make are quickly lost when you turn the bottom mark and head up again. 

The harder it blows the more foiling pays off - on any heading.  With wind at 20, the other boats are shedding power while the S9 just comes alive.

 

I don't know how Moths and other foilers fare in light winds - I have no experience or observations there.

 

Doug, we're not in any way disappointed with the S9.  The fact that we can remove the foils to be competitive in light airs is a real advantage.

(This can be done on the water - but you will get wet, and you better not drop anything.)

We wouldn't have this option if the foils were permanently attached to the rudders and boards.

 

Just a thought:

The S9 rudders, boards, and mainsail have a pretty high aspect ratio.

I am not a boat designer, but aren't these characteristics optimal for boats with apparent wind well forward?

If so, it is no surprise that light wind is suboptimal for the S9, because in light air we (I) just can't generate enough apparent wind for the foils and sail to be efficient.

But this topic is not my forté - it is more for you designer types - I am just a user.

Fair winds, 

Charlie

Thanks for the response, Charlie.Could the boat use more sail area-it should help with light air foiling but would you be able to depower effectively as the wind picked up?

Would it screw up the basic conception of the boat too much? 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Sorry, Doug, but as usual, your obsession means you miss the obvious. When racing, you want the fastest VMG. The only foilers I know where upwind foiling pays from the get go are Moths and the AC boats. In every other foiler I know about (mainly cats) upwind foiling doesn't pay in many situations. This is a VMG thing and only applies in racing. For instance, you can get upwind foiling in an A in about 10 knots of breeze but nobody can make it pay. The top A's can make it pay in about 12 knots but that still depends on other factors. On the A, this doesn't change the fun factor upwind because even when not foiling, the lift makes you go quicker and if you are good enough, you are faster than without foils.

Nothing Charlie says surprises me at all because it seems to be a common theme with cat foilers when racing.

I suspect that because of the super efficiency of cats in general, the whole foil or not discussion is different because they can sail upwind so well. The other thing to realise is that not foiling upwind doesn't change the enjoyment at all. I don't know about the S9, but many in the A's find upwind foiling simply too extreme, I suspect because the apparent wind is so much more than when sailing downwind. 18 or 19 knots boatspeed foiling upwind feels far quicker and scarier than 26 knots downwind.

Quote

Downwind on the foils is still a great thrill.  The harder it blows the deeper you can foil.  In anything over 17 mph or so you are passing over the waves and looking forward for the wind. routine for the experienced A and Moth sailors, but still quite a hoot for an old timer like me

There is nothing "routine" about what you are describing! That is why so many are getting into this type of sailing. It is a whole new world that needs new skills and an "adjustment" to your sensory perception systems! I guess it is like the first time you drive a car really fast, say 100 mph when you have previously only done 70. After a while the 100 might seem normal but I think in the case of cat foiling, it is more like going from 70mph to 150 mph while losing a bit of control and the steering and other controls start to work backwards! Nothing normal or boring and you need to learn to drive all over again as you regularly crash through not having a clue what you are doing  :D 

Adding more sail area to a foiler is unlikely to be a good idea. The issue of increasing power is usually about righting moment unless the boat is significantly under canvassed to start with. Simply, you are unlikely to get foiling until you can "pop a hull" and once you can pop a hull, you no longer need added power. From all I have seen with the S9, it seems to pop a hull in single figure wind strengths (Charlie?) and well before you are foiling upwind. Therefore more sail area simply equals more drag, because you need to get rid of the power all the time. I have been convinced for some time that in most conditions with the A you will be just as fast with a smaller rig (not just shorter) as you are depowering so much. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Doug, the boat really needs to be flat while foiling - downwind that is very easy, but upwind I have to de-power significantly to keep it down.

Adding more area at the top would only make that worse.  I think Michele has been defending his "foilers need short masts" position for awhile now.

The addition of the jib helps - all the power is down low, minimum effect on heel, noticeable increase in power.

 

Is it heresy to suggest that an old-fashioned sail shape like a Hobie 16 or 17 might be appropriate to add power down low?

 

A Class Sailor:  I can fly a hull in 7 knots of wind, which gets me to liftoff speed if I crack off a bit.  

Thank you for validating some of our observations.  Makes us feel like we're not just waggling our rudders.

Charlie

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

As you can read in many of the posts above, we get appropriate and appreciated suggestions about the boat - makes us think.

When the S9s arrived our discussions centered on our previous experience: the rudders weren't right, the boards were too far back, it needs a deck sweeper sail, a taller mast, different tiller connections, needs a jib, needs a spinnaker, whatever.  After sailing it we thought: we should launch "this way", get on or off the wire a certain way, hold up the foils and rudders "like this" when launching, just do a crash gybe to stay on the foils, again, whatever.

 

After 15 months of sailing by many skippers I can report that we were dead wrong on almost all of the above (we do like the jib).   

The boat is very very good right out of the box.  I think Michele nailed it.

 

Short list of what we have learned:

1) Boat setup must be validated before every sail: rudder rake, board rake, and mast rake must be correct or you end up fighting the boat instead of enjoying it.  Last September Michele sent Federico Villani to TFW Newport to teach us these things - and Federico's advice really helped.  (Thank you Federico and Michele!)

2) Smooth tiller movement is absolutely essential, especially when coming in off the wire and during transitions.  The boat can gybe, tack, and bear-away faster than your body can.  We went swimming a lot at first.  We added snubbers and shims to the rudder system to eliminate any free play and that helped a bit (same thing we've always done on all our boats).  

3) Sailing technique is not the same as on a floater.  Heel is not your friend.  

4) It is important to change modes according to the conditions:  recreational foiling is not the same as race foiling, float upwind, foil down, (recently validated), remove foils in light air (again recently validated).

5) The boat is delightfully durable - things just don't break (well, except for that F-18 thing).

I am sure our Italian friends can confirm or dispute some of our conclusions if they wish.

Fair winds, 

Charlie

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Loving recent notes. I agree with every point -- from a Whisper foiling PoV. On the plus side, we have a kite for light winds. On the minus, no regular foils (actually, I haven't asked WF, but I expect I will soon). 

A question to Charlie -- what the good/best range of ride height for you on the S9? How much strut under the water vs outside the water?

Some of my early difficulties have been with riding too high, and I'm figuring out tweaks to my ride height configuration to ride lower while maintaining amplitude of movement in the foil control surface... in simpler terms: I'think I need to shorten my wand :-)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
7 hours ago, Charlie P Mayer said:

Doug, the boat really needs to be flat while foiling - downwind that is very easy, but upwind I have to de-power significantly to keep it down.

Adding more area at the top would only make that worse.  I think Michele has been defending his "foilers need short masts" position for awhile now.

The addition of the jib helps - all the power is down low, minimum effect on heel, noticeable increase in power.

 

Is it heresy to suggest that an old-fashioned sail shape like a Hobie 16 or 17 might be appropriate to add power down low?

 

A Class Sailor:  I can fly a hull in 7 knots of wind, which gets me to liftoff speed if I crack off a bit.  

Thank you for validating some of our observations.  Makes us feel like we're not just waggling our rudders.

Charlie

 

 

If you are flying a hiull in 7 knots I doubt you can take more sail area because from there on, as the wind increases, you are in depower mode and you soon reach the point where that equals drag. I can see that the addition of the jib would be good, because it makes the main work more efficiently and adds area low down.

I am nopt sure about the old school sail which I presume you mean with no fat head. I think you will lose a lot of control, because you can control the power with leach twist and the bigger head is also a lower drag profile. The A's have reduced the size of the fat head but to the surprise of many, shorter rigs have not proven to be the game changer some thought it would be. I hear that while the development has reach the point where they are no slower in most conditions, little to no advantage has been found. Maybe it needs more development, because the current A rig is so refined.

2 hours ago, martin.langhoff said:

Loving recent notes. I agree with every point -- from a Whisper foiling PoV. On the plus side, we have a kite for light winds. On the minus, no regular foils (actually, I haven't asked WF, but I expect I will soon). 

A question to Charlie -- what the good/best range of ride height for you on the S9? How much strut under the water vs outside the water?

Some of my early difficulties have been with riding too high, and I'm figuring out tweaks to my ride height configuration to ride lower while maintaining amplitude of movement in the foil control surface... in simpler terms: I'think I need to shorten my wand :-)

Martin - Ride height is an interesting one and I think applies to all foilers. It is a simple truth that downwind, the higher you fly, the faster you go and the scarier it is. Upwind, the higher you fly, the more likely it is that you will slip sideways. On the A, as soon as I get uncomfortable with how it feels, I lower the ride height. If nothing else, there is less distance to fall :D

I read the Whisper user manual some time ago and thought that you could eeasily control ride height by both changing an adjuster on top of the board and by altering the rake on the boards (have I got that right?) I am not sure you need a shorter wand. I suspect that just like with the A, you would need a different setting for upwind to downwind and from lighter winds to heavier winds.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

@A Class Sailor - atm we ride _very_ high, and sometimes fly out of the water entirely like a stingray. That's how it feels, at least. I suspect we actually skip like a stone. Complete loss of control.

I just got some new parts from the mfg (happy!) so will be experimenting with them, I think they improve on what I have (some parts on my cat were very early production). Haven't sailed them yet, so this may be a tad premature.

Having said that... looking at the ride adj setup on land, the parts improve the ride height control but it's still fairly high. When I lower the ride height further, I lose some amplitude. After studying what Moths have -- there's some amazing engineering there! -- the simplest and most effective mechanism to control my ride height is wand length control.

So I plan to

- test the new bits I have

- test with a wand cut shorter

- if the shorter wand works, build a telescoping one :-) 

Looking at all the bell crank tweakers for a moth is a siren call to get myself into trouble...

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Have you talked to the designer and/or the mfg about your plan?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
8 hours ago, martin.langhoff said:

@A Class Sailor - atm we ride _very_ high, and sometimes fly out of the water entirely like a stingray. That's how it feels, at least. I suspect we actually skip like a stone. Complete loss of control.

A word of caution. You sound exactly like a newbie Moth sailor back in the day, always claiming to be flying too high, the foils then jumping out and losing control. 99 times out of 100 it was sailing technique, not the set up, because even with perfect set up, it still happened. Two of the biggest ride height adjusters you have are the mainsheet and the crew position. You want lower ride height, pull the sails in. remember that pulling in reduces ride height, easing increases it. Once you get to your desired ride height, begin to edge forward to level out flight.

Looking at the level of adjustment the Whisper has, I find it hard to believe that it is not also an adjustment issue. The top slider has enough range and looks as if it must be possible to have almost zero lift. Then there is the ride height adjuster. Have you read the manual and tried their suggested settings? Have you tried the slider further forward than that? 

I also see that in the user manual it states that "If you keep jumping out of the water take a step forward for more stable foiling remember that your body weight can be used to trim the boat just like the foils"

If you have tried all these things, sorry to go over things you know, but I have seen the Whisper sail a number of times with standard wands and it sails fine. I find it very hard to believe you need to cut the wand down on yours when others don't need to.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I agree with what Team GBR says. I think it is unlikely to be wand length or else all the other Whispers have it wrong as well, which doesn't look like it based on videos.

The things GBR mentions are all valid. i would add 1 other factor, Check out your rudder winglets and their angle compared with the hulls. We use an attack-o-meter to compare it with the transom angle. What has been found on many foilers is the accuracy needed so that the rudder winglets are correct is high and small differences at the top make a big difference at the bottom.1/2 a degree out can make a huge difference to ride height. Not knowing how your winglets are attached but in most cases, it is hard to be totally accurate, so the foils need setting o the boat. In the case of the Whisper, this could mean shims for the rudder fittings, if needed.

Another thing to consider is when you you are riding that high, what is your fore and aft trim? Are you bow up or down? Your aim should be to have the right balance between lift in the main foils and rudder so that at cruising height, you are slightly bow down. If you are any way bow up, you will have too much AoA on the main foil, ride too high and pop out.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Sorry if this is a bit of a hijack, but thinking through what Charlie and Martin have said above coupled with my own experience and having discussed foiling with people from different boats, a few things begin to stand out. It doesn't matter how good the boat and its systems are, it seems there are 2 big factors. First, if the bot isn't set up spot on, you are in a world of pain. This is so different to conventional sailing where if your rudders or centreboards aren't raked spot on, you can still have a pleasant sail. With foilers, a small amount out can be the difference between stable flight and a world of pain. Because tolerances are so fine, I don't think any manufacturer will get a perfect, straight out of the box boat every time unless they spend a lot of time and money setting up each boat perfectly before it leaves the factory. This is both expensive and pointless, because as we have all found, if things get a little lose over time or in transportation, you need to reset everything. Better to make sure everybody knows exactly how to check the set up of the gear and to do it frequently.

The other thing that creates a "barrier" for new people to enjoy instant foiling is having to relearn how to sail. On some boats it is easier to learn than on others, It seems to me that the UFO is at the easy end of the c=scale and the A's are at the harder end of it, but the principals are the same. On foilers, much of what you knw from "normal" sailing needs to be thrown out and new skills learnt so they become automatic. Below is a list of things I can think of, but I hope others will chime in with what i have missed and their experiences.

1. In a normal boat, to slow down you ease the sail. With a foiler, that makes the boat foil higher and go faster. You need to sheet in to lower ride height or over sheet to slow down.

2. As you go faster downwind in a normal boat, you usually have to move back to stop nosediving. With a foiler, as you go faster and the boat comes up, you often need to move forward.

3.When the boat heels to windward, on a normal boat you pull away. When foiling, you head up, except for the very rare occasions when it pays to pull away that can only be learnt from experience!

4.Never heel to leeward. This is a tough one for us cat sailors who have spent our whole lives at an angle. Level or windward heel 

5. With a foiler, as you speed up, you need to slow your inputs down, or maybe that should read make them more subtle. The rudder becomes many times more sensitive. The biggest reason for getting into trouble is panicking and therefore over reacting making matters worse. "Calm down, and carry on Foiling"!

6. When things go wrong and they will) and you end up flying forward, your umber 1 priority is to get the boat to head up. Most swim because the boat simply bears away until it rolls over on top of you. Find a way to grab the tiller again and push it away.

7. Don't become scared and then sail timid. This is the surest way of getting into trouble. Don't go in after a big crash unless you are hurt or it is dangerous, get going again and don't try to take it easy. If you come off the water scared, it will build up in your mind until you next sail and you end up in a downward cycle. It's the old saying "when you fall off the horse, get straight back on".

8. Please wear a helmet on top of the usual safety gear. There is no excuse not to. Maybe on non trapeze foilers it's OK, but when attached by a trapeze, you can fly through the air and the trapeze pulls you back into a lot of very hard surfaces.

Safe and enjoyable sailing!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Just a few lines to show my appreciation for our sailors out here:

Last week I couldn't sail back to the marina because one of my hulls sank (big hole).

Shannon Galway, Phantom owner and S9 newbie, rescued us and towed us back home.

I thanked him in an email, and this was his response:

"I was hoping for maritime salvage rights, but alas you were still onboard when I got there... "

Thanks again to Shannon, Judson, Ziggy, and Marvin,

 

Charlie
 

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

These pics show the aftermath of a racing incident.  The other skipper and crew spent considerable time finding me on shore to express their concern and regrets - an uplifting example of character.  Thank you Mike and Miguel. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Ouch, got to be a story in there.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Prop damage:  a man and his friend were towing two 14 year old boys in a tubey thing, they ran into me in the middle of the lake, in the middle of a race.

I'll make one good boat with the good hulls.  

That's two collisions 21 days apart.  My wife hid the car keys and locked away the knives and scissors.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Ooooh you don't mind when you create your own problems but when others create an avoidable accident, then you can only say " it wasn't my day "

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Sorry to see that Charlie!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Oh man what a mess. From the sound of it you're in one piece, and hopefully noone got hurt, so happy about that, but so sorry about that bow. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Charlie, it was a fun day up until then.  When I looked back I saw the ski tow rope was half way up your mast and the tube was being drug.  What a mess.  Its hard to believe that someone would tow kids through the middle of the lake and on top of that, through the middle of a race.  I hope you can get fixed and back on the water soon.  It is a really cool boat. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Thank you everybody!  My wife hates it when I call her and the first words are "nobody's hurt, but......"

Prop damage was 4 feet from my sitting position on the hull :wacko:.

The real tragedy is: I was really pumped for some good foiling time with other boats and........... well, the  wind came up nicely while I was filling out forms for the authorities.  It would have been the best racing/foiling conditions since April.  

Good news:  insurance check for the last crash showed up today.  Yea, thank you Progressive!  Thank you Mike and Miguel!

More good news: the gentleman driving the boat yesterday called this morning and promised to cover the damage.   Yea!

Even more: I married the two good hulls into one fully untouched platform, ready to go!  The two damaged hulls are on the other platform.

If anyone is interested in a fully foil-borne S9 with a couple of holey hulls, please pm me!  I have pics and video.

Anyway, that's two possibly fatal incidents in 21 days - guess it's just not my time yet.  Reminds us to keep things in perspective, I think.

Fair winds, everybody,

Charlie

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Charlie, take the hulls to a glider repairer, quite easy repairs for those knowing how to handle composites. Pity you're not on this side of the pond, I'd have them B)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Thank you Waynemarlow:  I contacted a sailplane shop in Fort Worth, Texas - they could do the work but were too busy to take on a boat repair.  I was referred to a shop in New Mexico - 800 miles one-way.  I'll have to think about that.  I contacted a sailplane operator in Marfa - he was helpful, too.

I think I'll just stop and do nothing with the crash boat until summer is over.  It'll need a new name - maybe "Crash Magnet"?

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Charlie, if you could get Ita. 16 to lay up the affected areas in the mould, and ship them over, then a local composites shop ( think high end rowing boat repairers or even a car composite repairer ) should be able to do it pretty quickly, perhaps just 2 or 3 days work if you have the panels in hand. These are not structural areas and should seam in using very standard techniques.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Two accidents in three weeks?  "Nervous Wreck," maybe?  

 

Glad you're okay.

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Thank you Waynemarlow.  Michele has already made some offers.  Still working on a plan.  

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

RT: thank you.  This last one was a little scary.  Glad I still have all my appendages.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Sweeeeeeet!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Cheers, 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Very nice looking...

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Holo Nui: nice racing out there with you.  Perhaps we can do the boat swap in the next race.

RT:  are ever coming back to race?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I planned to do the Summer series with the Weta but had to leave town for a funeral. So I'll just do single day registration for the July and August races if the wind forecast is above 5 mph.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I will miss July race but will be there for August. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 Its finally official, the first Italian foiling school on catamaran is born , 2 S9 ready at Bracciano lake , near Roma 

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Great video and good to see something happening to introduce and coach sailors in the art of foiling.

One thing stands out watching the video. On the A's, we have found using rear sheeting makes the game so much harder, for a number of reasons, so everybody has moved the sheeting point forward into the middle of the tramp. If you watch the video, you will spot that puling the mainsheet in sometimes pulls the traveller and this is not good. We have also found that if you are sheeting from the middle of the tramp, the forward pull gives you something to brace against and it makes it far easier to stay on the side of the boat. Even the most diehard traditionalist has gone to centre sheeting. I think it would be well worth trying.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, ita 16 said:

 Its finally official, the first Italian foiling school on catamaran is born , 2 S9 ready at Bracciano lake , near Roma 

 

 

Congratulations, Michele!!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

A Class Sailor: we'll give the mid-tramp sheeting a try.  

We don't often get pitched off these days - when we learned better footwork that seemed to go away. 

I might best appreciate the central sheeting during a foiling bear-away while the traveler or sheet gets adjusted, and while coming in off the wire while foiling downwind.  It is difficult for me to stay in control in those transitions - need more practice.  The S9 is very short: boom-ducking may be a little more difficult, but worth a try.

In the other thread you mentioned our learning curve.  We made more progress in the higher winds in late fall and early spring than we did all summer last year.  Best learning is steady wind at least 12 knots - with a chase boat and a coach.  We don't get that here too often.  Pretty rare in summer.

I don't think we learn anything in non-foiling or intermittent-foiling  winds.  The classic floaters just kill us.  Frustrating.  

My conclusion: no white caps - no foiling.  More fun to just jump on a Sprint or Weta.  

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Charlie, you will be more than pleasantly surprised how good the mid tramp sheeting is, it pulls you onto the boat, locking your feet on the side, allows to use your thighs more for tension on the sheet, but also allows your sheet hand to be always facing forward, which then allows your shoulders to face forward as well.

I would recommend you to try going even further forward than the mid point, I ended up with mine about 150mm back from the spanner adjuster and that seemed to be best.

You could even go one step further forward and make a cascade system in the boom, you can drop one pulley turn due to the efficiency and you end up with the sheet adjuster at the front of the boat, a simple 3:1 at the rear with a 3:1 in the boom means really cheap components and simple front sheet position.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

S9 have a classic main sheet for a very important fact "security" , 

When you  flying speed is very high so  greath deceleration when the bows touches water surface ,  so a main sheet very backward like the classic one allows you to have a better berth crew at the boat , this   avoid being            between the bows with the boat pichpool on to you.

But S9 rules make mainsheet sistem free . 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Thank you Michele.   Please, how can I get a copy of the class rules?

Waynemarlow, the sheet load is pretty light, so I try to always use my back hand for steering, front for sheeting.  

The forward sheeting might make it easier for me to cross the tramp without getting tangled - I get embarrassed when I see that in the videos.

I've made several rigging changes on the boat over the last 15 months, trying to make things easier or more personal, much to Michele's consternation.

I've gone back to Michele's factory-stock setup on almost everything - but I still enjoy the experimentation.

Michele is right: we sometimes experience sudden deceleration - like when we outrun a gust or we get caught in a deep shift or if we stall the main or a foil.

This tries to toss us forward, but if you survive the splash you're ok.  If you hang on, stay calm, and don't panic, you usually pop right back up.  

I've considered adding foot straps, but I hate to put holes in my boats :wacko:.

Appreciate the tips and hints - hope to be back on the water soon - I miss the fun.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!


Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.


Sign In Now