Doug Lord

14' Stunt S9 Foiling Cat

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4 hours ago, ita 16 said:

S9 have a classic main sheet for a very important fact "security" , 

When you  flying speed is very high so  greath deceleration when the bows touches water surface ,  so a main sheet very backward like the classic one allows you to have a better berth crew at the boat , this   avoid being            between the bows with the boat pichpool on to you.

Sorry, but that is absolute rubbish. Centre sheeting gives you the security and anchors you into the boat. This is why rear sheeting is now a thing of the past in A's. People who absolutely hated the idea of having to learn something new have ended up changing for no other reason than it makes it so much easier to stay on the boat. You don'ty get guys like Darren Bundock changing the way they have sailed for 30 years unless there is a real benefit.

It might sound counter intuitive that having a mainsheet pulling from ahead of you helps you stay at the back of the boat, but it does because as pointed out above, it gives you something to brace against. I made the change a couple of years ago and while it took me some time to get used to it, the benefits were immediate and significant. Not only do you stay in the side of the boat better, but it means that the traveller no longer gets pulled up when you sheet on as can be seen in the video.

Another big change away from cat conventional systems has been with the traveller. We no longer attach it to the end of the mainsheet because when you are on the trapeze and foiling, going around the marks, pulling the slack out of the mainsheet to find the "end" takes too long when you need to be sheeting and steering. We now lead the traveller control under the tramp and split it to both sides on a  continuous system with the key line running along the side of the boat. Now you just reach in a little, grab the line and ease it (or pull it!) and you have moved the traveller in no more than 2 seconds without coming in off the wire. Before this change, too many people were having too many swims as they lost control at the marks adjusting the traveller, or they slowed down so they could come into the boat which loses a lot of ground. In general, A's have developed new ways for the systems to run so that you do not have to come in off the wire at mark roundings and that you can adjust everything from both a forward upwind position and while trapezing at the back of the boat.

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I just read Charlie's post above. I cannot believe you are sailing a foiler without footstraps! That's nuts. 

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A Class Sailor:  would you please send pics or diagrams on the two-sided traveler?  Especially interested in how to keep it within reach while on the wire.

Please include cleat locations!  We altered the jib sheet to a continuous two-sided system as you describe by adding two swivel cleats on the front beam.

The sheet is run in a way that you can cleat the leeward side from the windward wire a la F-18 and Phantom (I think).

Not sure how to make the traveler do that.

Thank you,

Charlie

ps - foot straps: we have to step back and forth on the hull to keep the bow at a proper angle.  Not sure how that footwork would meld with foot straps.  We'll see, I guess.  The S9 and the A have some common points, but perhaps the current sailing characteristics are quite different.  Michele is the only one I know who has sailed both, nobody I know of over here.  Maybe we can convince one of the Houston A cat sailors to come sail with us for a comparison - hope they read this.  

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7 minutes ago, Charlie P Mayer said:

A Class Sailor:  would you please send pics or diagrams on the two-sided traveler?  Especially interested in how to keep it within reach while on the wire.

I won't be near my boat for a couple of weeks so hard to get a photo, plus it is under the tramp, but I will try to do a diagram if I get a moment.

 

Quote

ps - foot straps: we have to step back and forth on the hull to keep the bow at a proper angle.  Not sure how that footwork would meld with foot straps.  We'll see, I guess.  The S9 and the A have some common points, but perhaps the current sailing characteristics are quite different.  Michele is the only one I know who has sailed both, nobody I know of over here.  Maybe we can convince one of the Houston A cat sailors to come sail with us for a comparison - hope they read this.  

On the A we need to move our weight far more than i suspect you do! To start with, we have 2 loops, one at the very back and one at around the rear beam. I rarely use the forward one. The rear foot goes in the rear loop. When I need my weight back, I am standing with my feet reasonably close together particularly to get up on foils, but once up and running, I then move my front foot forward. If you look at film of some of the very top A sailors, they are often standing with their feet wide apart. It might not look cool, but it gets the weight forward and also keeps you on the side of the boat better. If conditions are stable, I might shift my rear foot to the forward strap and sail with my legs closer together, which probably feels more natural but is less stable. Here is a picture of Stevie Brewin with his legs close to 1 metre apart!

9415f9bcd76598f9c08127db1641b596_XL.jpg

If it's good enough for a multiple national and world champion, it should be good enough for us lesser mortals! Note the rear foot is in the rear strap but you can see the more forward one. As he needs to, he "walks" the side of the boat, effectively moving his weight nearly a metre.

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A Class Sailor, The S9 is quite a subtle little boat compared to the A, its shorter in length but quite fat in girth and seems to sit much flatter on the water whilst in pre foil mode, probably better than my Flyer that I have, despite the 1 metre in length shorter. Any body movement along its length is quite a bit less than I expected and the range was only about 1 metre back and forth along the boat to get the boat sitting flat, remember the wand is doing a lot of the foil AoA that you would normally do by altering your position on the boat.

From the day sailing on the S9 that I had, I was pretty convinced that centre sheeting would be enough to lock ones feet better onto the boat and not really need a footstrap, I think that's also something to do with the wand system which means that you don't need to move along the boat quite as much as the A's and nor does it have the power of the A's, its just more subtle in what it does, think of A forces and drop them by a quarter.

Certainly the S9 could do with the travellor being used more as the sail it has is a very good but solid shape and really once set by the main, the travellor probably could almost do the rest bar subtle adjustments with the main, almost opposite of most Cats.

Charlie you can make a simple mod to your existing boat to try centre sheet positions by taking the main sheet tail foward to a pulley and then out wards to you.  On my F16 I made a triangle of 2mm D12 from the outer beam area under the tramp, just poking up through the spanner hole in the tramp, make a loop to stop the pulley moving sideways and then back to the other side of the beam. I put a one way pulley on it to give a bit of respite while making adjustments elsewhere, simply moving the sheet to the rudder hand. Do try it as its worth the effort.   

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@Charlie P Mayer - have you experimented tweaking foil rake between leeward and windward? I haven't, but at least one Whisper sailor has, and he says it really helps.

I'm not saying it's practical (it def is not on the W) but I'm curious as to whether you tried it.

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I believe this may be the system that A Class Sailor is referring to. If it's not, it's still an interesting way of solving the problem and something I'd look at putting on my A, if I sailed her more :(

 

 

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26 minutes ago, jr15457 said:

I believe this may be the system that A Class Sailor is referring to. If it's not, it's still an interesting way of solving the problem and something I'd look at putting on my A, if I sailed her more :(

No it isn't! That system never caught on. I am not even sure that it is on that guys boat any more. People were rather put off by the cleats sticking up. They seem to be in the perfect place to trip you up and inflict pain. I haven't had time to draw it but will try later today, but the basic principal of all of the new A Class systems is that everything happens under the tramp, it comes out onto the deck near the shrouds where the cleat is situated and it then runs back along the deck to a turning block near the rear beam before going back under the tramp to a take up and it is a "continuous" system. By running the controls along the side, it means you can easily grab them wherever you are standing out on the wire.

Strangely, while all the top Australians use that sort of system, the DNA fit out doesn't.

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22 hours ago, Charlie P Mayer said:

A Class Sailor:  would you please send pics or diagrams on the two-sided traveler?  Especially interested in how to keep it within reach while on the wire.

Please include cleat locations!  We altered the jib sheet to a continuous two-sided system as you describe by adding two swivel cleats on the front beam.

The sheet is run in a way that you can cleat the leeward side from the windward wire a la F-18 and Phantom (I think).

Not sure how to make the traveler do that.

Thank you,

Charlie

ps - foot straps: we have to step back and forth on the hull to keep the bow at a proper angle.  Not sure how that footwork would meld with foot straps.  We'll see, I guess.  The S9 and the A have some common points, but perhaps the current sailing characteristics are quite different.  Michele is the only one I know who has sailed both, nobody I know of over here.  Maybe we can convince one of the Houston A cat sailors to come sail with us for a comparison - hope they read this.  

I'm pretty confused on how you can cleat the leeward jib sheet from the weather side while on the wire. Sounds like I am missing something, I have a continous jibsheet rigged as shown here with bungee takeup in the front beam: F18-drawing-lg.gif

There is an image of Stevie Brewins traveler setup here: http://www.a-cat.org/?q=node/825

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samc99us:  jib sheet runs: from 240 cleat around nearest shroud, across (or under) the tramp to other shroud, to other 240 cleat, plus a little slack, will have to measure that.

To cleat far side, just release near cleat (don't dump it - just release it) then pull the line to far shroud a few inches while easing near side.

This lets a few inches to go through the far side, allowing it to grab.  I'll try to send you a short video.   Easier than it sounds - takes only a second or two.

Charlie

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Hi everybody,

I do understand the A-cat concept.  This is a no-compromise racing weapon for all-out racers.

The complexity displayed here tells the story:  http://www.a-cat.org/?q=node/825  (wow!!)

 

That's not what the S9 is intended to be.  This is a recreational boat - low price point, durable, very simple, much more fun than work.

I'm pretty sure this is what Michele intended to create - not a rival to the A-cat.  

 

I really enjoy trying new things on the boat - please don't stop sending your suggestions!  

I'll give some of your suggestions a try, but I doubt I'll stick to anything that lowers the fun/hassle ratio.

The most fun on the S9 so far is high wind with the unirig - still evaluating the jib.

 

Charlie

 

 

 

 

 

 

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Charlie, do you have a jib travellor track on the new jib set up or is the sheet direct to the cleat.

I think there must be a way of just sheeting direct rather than having to use a curved travellor as the modern material we build the sails from and with the addition of one batten, we may be able to mimic the main sails without a boom. The only thing I can't work out is how to release the cleat on the leeward side, from the windward side. Tightening it as you do is no problem, its just releasing it, is what I can't work out.

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Waynemarlow:  yes, short, curved traveler.  Self-tending most of the time.  Slight release of sheet from upwind to downwind.  Jib traveler has a limiter - but I find it works best all the way out, so I removed the limiter.  Anything inboard seemed to choke the main.  Mast rotation is limited with the jib - spreaders.  The jib can add power when you don't want it - like coming ashore, killing time before the start, etc., so you have to plan ahead.  Impossible to blow a tack  with the jib, and it totally eliminates any rudder cavitation at high speed.  Simplest jib arrangement I have seen - once you learn to leave it alone.     

No, don't know how to release far side cleat - line is continuous so hasn't been a problem - yet.  

Will post pics - more detail than words - would appreciate same.

Thank you,

Charlie

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Charlie,

  I follow your setup. Won't work well on a spinnaker boat unfortunately, but makes sense for the S9. I hear ya on the complexity of some of these rigging systems. My experience generally speaking is once they are setup and working well you don't need to worry about them again and you can focus on sailing. To that end, they make the sailing significantly easier, being able to wire adjust your sail settings easily and quickly does matter, yes I understand these aren't all out racing weapons but I think anything that is up on foils requires pretty constant sail trim to keep her there. That being said, I think the S9 has a couple things going for it that reduce the complexity of the rigging out of the box and you have less to worry about. In the photo shown here (http://www.a-cat.org/?q=node/825), you can pretty safely ignore the following:

1) Under tramp mainsheet system-lower drag perhaps, but a fair bit of hidden complexity. Most A's aren't using this to my knowledge.

2) Foil return bungee and foil rake control lines

That leaves you with the downhaul, traveler and mast rotation. Getting these out to the side of the boat makes a lot of sense when you are mostly sailing from the wire, and they remain easily accessible when hiking.

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samc99us: Than you for your response.  I do have downhaul, traveler, main sheet, and jib sheet available from the wire, but not mast rotation.  With the jib, it can only go so far, so now I just set it and forget it anyway.  The mainsheet does not require as much attention (or tension) as on my other boats.  Don't know why.

I've experimented with a cleated main sheet and foiled extensively both upwind and down, adjusting only with steering and weight, with pretty good results.  

That was not an easy thing to do, mentally - 40 years of sawing a mainsheet is a hard habit to break.

Fair winds,

Charlie

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Mast rotation isn't adjusted as often, in my experience, but that depends on the location and conditions. It may not be worth running to the wire. It is interesting that you've found the mainsheet trimming less required-I do buy that however, as in relatively stable conditions once up and foiling on a stable platform the apparent wind doesn't shift much.

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I haven't been on the boat since the power boat tried to kill me.  Time to get back on that horse!

If anyone has a pic of forward mainsheet setup, would you please post it?

At TFW Garda the S9 had a self-tending jib sheet linked to the mainsheet, Michele, would you post a picture please?

Thank you!

Charlie

 

 

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Hi Charlie , next days I can put some pictures about mainsheet-jib sistem .

Down here a start line of S9 class at TFW . 

Wind was light , 8-10 .

Onboard its really much more exciting than from RIB .

 

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Notes from the video:

*foot straps  -  but didn't see them used

*jib halyard leads directly to both traps - easy to reach

*simple main outhaul

*I think I saw him tighten the jib halyard from the wire

Great video Andrea!

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I reckon there must be a few A Catters looking at this and thinking " they're all foiling, how do they do that "

:D

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A few comments on the video. They are observations, not criticisms.

The conditions look perfect. Flat water, enough wind to foil but not enough to cause any problems and the boat certainly gets up on foils easily. He is trapezing fairly high even when he lets himself right down. Low trapezing makes a big difference. Footstraps wouldn't be needed in those conditions, but I also realised that because the boat is so small, you aren't far enough back to get a big pull forward from the geometry of the trapeze wire so footstraps would only be needed when there is a bit on . There seems to be some transition between enough wind to foil and not. In those conditions, playing the downhaul would be very beneficial. You need fuller sails to get up on the foils and then you need to flatten them for speed. I was also surprised that the downhaul was eased so much downwind. I expected some, to take the pressure off the mast, but we have found that having a flat sail when foiling downwind is quicker. The final surprise for me was tacking at the bottom mark and going left. It always pays to go right at Garda!:D

24 minutes ago, Waynemarlow said:

I reckon there must be a few A Catters looking at this and thinking " they're all foiling, how do they do that "

I would suggest that if they are thinking that, either their boat isn't set up right (very common) or they need to get out and sail more because in that amount of wind, everybody should be foiling. I think one of the successes of the S9 is that because each boat is the same, it has been possible to develop and communicate a set up that everybody can use that will make the boats work. IIRC, Charlie had a few issues until somebody set his boat up properly and the same is true in the A's. I wasted the best part of 6 months thinking I wasn't good enough to foil but when somebody then set my boat up properly, i now realise that I am good enough to foil, just not good enough foil as fast as the good guys! With the A, because there is so much different gear arund, it is impossible to write a tuning guide because it differs for any given set of gear.

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^ I am not sure what that is showing us. Was that racing on the basis of no handicaps? What were the wind conditions? What was the relative experience of sailors in each type of boat. I see that the Moths were represented by one of the best Moth sailors in the world. These sorts of things are only meaningful if they have sailors of equal ability.

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Team GBR beat me to it. I look at the sailors and Rob Greenhagh is the favorite to win the Moth worlds. I think the top S9 was sailed by ita16 who as designer, builder and developer has done lots of sailing. How good were the A Class sailors? the differences through the fleet are huge. the top guys are claiming 28-30 knots. I am mid fleet and have never seen more than 24 and that terrified me while there are some noticeably slower.

Why is the boat in 11th crossed out?

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A Class Sailor - yes, proper and consistent setup on the S9 yields a boat that reacts predictably to your inputs.  Michele sent a ton of pics for us, then Federico Villani gave us a clinic at TFW Newport - thank you guys!

S9 foiling setup involves rudder rake, mast rake, and initial main board aoa, that's it.  Everything else is technique and on-the-water adjustments.  I don't know how that compares with an A cat setup.

You can foil downwind sitting, hiking, or trapping.  The boat seems to be pretty forgiving compared to what I've seen on other modern foilers.

Trapping low is risky in gusty or shifty conditions - if the sail stalls you get dunked.   Low trapping is not mandatory on the S9, but we do think it is faster.

The video showed upwind "skimming" mode as discussed earlier in this thread.  We're still experimenting with upwind foiling in heavier air. 

Charlie

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First picture was A cat 

Second was S9 

FB_IMG_1500226949930.jpg

Screenshot_2017-07-16-19-20-55.png

2017-07-10 13.15.08.png

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Wind was really light , 5 to 8 , with some good gust .

 

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And this, the new S1 A 

Test was made yesterday against a top brand A cat , on it a really good sailor .

Test results next days 

IMG-20170716-WA0006.jpg

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 Some action moovie S9 and S9 team interview at TFW ,  at 12:05 

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 For all sailors interested in foiling and eager to make upgrades on their boats, you can now purchase the S9 foiling kit,

 2 centerboards,

 2 main foils, 

2 rudders + rudder foils,

 2 wand systems.

Contact directly 12piedi@gmail.com

Greetings, Michele

Stunt9FoilsOct2016.jpg

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On 7/29/2017 at 0:53 AM, Charlie P Mayer said:

Considering selling the holey S9 instead of repairing it - any thoughts? 

How bad is the damage?

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Sadly on the wrong side of the pond, otherwise I would be definitely interested.

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Got back on the resurrected boat yesterday for the first sail after the big crunch on June 11.  North wind at 15 mph - this does not normally happen here.  No boat traffic - perfect conditions.  I was really rusty for the first few minutes, but ok after that.  

On one these forums the A Cat guys were commenting on keeping the tramp free of lines.  I really didn't understand that - until yesterday.  In the layoff I re-rigged some lines for the jib and the wand controls.  I got my feet tangled in the new lines in every single tack and every single gybe.  The concerning part was flying high, down wind, straight toward the rocks, sitting on the tramp, and needing to gybe, and soon.  Couldn't get off the foils without a crash and couldn't maneuver until I untangled myself.  Exciting day on the lake.  I think I'll spend some time today cleaning up the rigging.  

Still have the crunched boat available - hanging in my garage, waiting for a new owner.  Heck, the mast, trailer and parts alone are worth my asking price.

Fair winds,

Charlie

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Charlie, aren't you the living proof that they do compete? There you have one customer that was so much on the fence, that he bought both boats!! :D

Thank you for the reports

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Hi sail(plane), usually I think of competition as an "either/or" choice.  I don't think I am the typical buyer.  IMHO most cat sailors will pay no attention to the UFO, just like most dinghy sailors will pay no attention to the S9.   I bought the S9 to learn foiling and to play with my old beach cat friends again.  I would have purchased the S9 first even had the UFO been available.  The UFO, in displacement mode, will be used for teaching beginners to sail (yes, really).  It lives on the dock, ready for an impromptu sail - about 4 feet from the water.  The S9 is usually a more intense half-day sail.  Different boats for different purposes.  

But whatever, I can't wait to use the S9 as a chase boat to the UFO!

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I decided to start the repair of the hulls around September 1st and complete another full boat (Michele, I need another jib kit please☺️).  Anybody have any advice?

We escaped hurricane damage - yea!

Charlie

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Charlie, if you get stuck on the repairs then PM me, it could be long long answers :D. Do remember that you have the perfect moulds available to make up repair sections which will be far easier for anyone not used to composite, to simply scarf in on an overlap inner and outer 1:40 scarf and gorilla glue is your friend to fill and bond foam in a hurry as it flats off at the same rate as the foam unlike epoxy and micro balloons.

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7 hours ago, Charlie P Mayer said:

I decided to start the repair of the hulls around September 1st and complete another full boat (Michele, I need another jib kit please☺️).  Anybody have any advice?

We escaped hurricane damage - yea!

Charlie

Glad you missed any hurricane damage!

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I could probably help on routing out a few molds or templates with my hobby CNC as long as they are less than about 950 mm x 500 mm and made of wood or MDF.  Would just need some data from ita to model the sections in Fusion 360.

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Getting a little more time to sail lately - but no wind.

Anyway - after sailing both boats in displacement mode on the same day, I still don't think these boats are competing in the same market.

The UFO is a performance dinghy - it is not a performance beach cat:

 

Beach cat and a dinghysmall.jpg

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16 hours ago, Charlie P Mayer said:

Getting a little more time to sail lately - but no wind.

Anyway - after sailing both boats in displacement mode on the same day, I still don't think these boats are competing in the same market.

The UFO is a performance dinghy - it is not a performance beach cat:

 

Beach cat and a dinghysmall.jpg

Looks like you need someone to head around and give you and hand sailing all these toys ;)

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On 4/9/2017 at 10:15 AM, Charlie P Mayer said:

Getting a little more time to sail lately - but no wind.

Anyway - after sailing both boats in displacement mode on the same day, I still don't think these boats are competing in the same market.

The UFO is a performance dinghy - it is not a performance beach cat:

 

Beach cat and a dinghysmall.jpg

Charlie, what do you mean? What differences between dinghy and cat make you sum it up like that? Tacking? Stability?

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Hi sail(plane)!  To me it's like the difference between a pleasure boat and a yacht, a large boat and a ship, how much money does a rich person have - all subjective to me anyway, so here goes:

The UFO can be car-topped like most other dinghys, I don't think I've ever seen a modern performance cat car-topped, but it may be possible.

Static stability: like any other dinghy, it is pretty risky to put a lot of weight on any end of a floating UFO - I can pretty much bury the UFO sterns or bows when docking or lowering the rudder - that said, it is much more stable than a Sunfish, Laser, or any other monohull dinghy I am familiar with, foiler or not.  The S9 is the smallest cat I have ever owned, but I can stand on any corner and not worry about a capsize.  So I guess stability at the dock is a difference for me.

Tacking: wasn't one of my metrics, but I can blow a tack on any unirig.

IMHO UFO seems aimed at a hiking-happy dinghy sailor and a price point < $8,000.  The S9 at trapeze-happy cat sailors at a price around $18,000.  The dinghy market is much larger than the beach cat market - check any Club parking lot.

I do know I can leave the UFO tied up on the dock and launch it within 5 minutes after walking up to it.  That's why I bought it.

I bought my S9s to learn foiling with my friends - and darn glad I did.

Charlie

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one race onboard with Vincenzo .

TFW 2017 

WIND 6 to 9

7 S9 at start 

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Curious -- How high can the S9 point in displacement and foiling modes? What techniques are folks using to go upwind effectively? 

 

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17 hours ago, martin.langhoff said:

Curious -- How high can the S9 point in displacement and foiling modes? What techniques are folks using to go upwind effectively? 

 

At TFW in Garda lake we have make a good test against foiling A cat ,  2 F1 DNA and 2 Exploder ,  wind  about 12 knots , A cat upwind in non foiling mode but S9 can fly at same angle and speed , 

Acat upwind in foiling mode at about 10 degrees more to the wind direction but S9 fly at same angle and speed . 

Only A cat classic can make a better VMG in upwind . 

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Hi Martin!

One race I was at a good angle upwind, so I just kept stepping back until the aoa was enough to get the whole boat out of the water.

Kinda weird with the bows pointing up.  Didn't seem to lose any angle or speed, but without another boat around to act as a "rabbit" I have no idea if it was faster or not.

We have an S9 for you to sail at Wurstfest Regatta on November 10-12.  Interested?  Bring your own boat?

We'll have a fleet of at least three S9s.  Two Phantoms, too!

See:  http://www.wurstfestregatta.com/

Michele and Federico: we have free lodging and boats to share - care to join us?

Charlie

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15 hours ago, ita 16 said:

At TFW in Garda lake we have make a good test against foiling A cat ,  2 F1 DNA and 2 Exploder ,  wind  about 12 knots , A cat upwind in non foiling mode but S9 can fly at same angle and speed , 

Acat upwind in foiling mode at about 10 degrees more to the wind direction but S9 fly at same angle and speed . 

Only A cat classic can make a better VMG in upwind . 

You make sweeping statements like this and wonder why we end up with on line arguments!  You clearly weren't sailing against the good A Class foiling guys because in 12 knots of breeze, the good ones make significantly better VMG than the A Classic. They actually go the same height but 6-7 knots faster. "Second tier" A Class foilers will sail 6-7 knots faster than a Classic but lower, making small gains as measured by VMG. Although it is unfair to use them as comparison, the top 2 or 3 A Class foilers are even quicker, close to 10 knots faster than a Classic and pointing higher. It is almost unbelievable what they are doing and it is condition dependent, going faster and faster when the water is flat, but even in significant waves the good foiling guys are significantly quicker than the best Classics.

Instead of playing "mine is better than yours", all you needed to do was compare the height with one boat, the classic, because for most, they can relate to that. Very few can relate to a foiling A because they haven't even seen one. Instead of writing what is a poorly disguised marketing attempt, I am surprised that as you are probably the most experienced S14 sailor, you didn't answer Martin's question on technique. Even he spotted you didn't bother with that!

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ITA16,

You should not focuse on trying to demonstrate your S9 can keep up with A-Cat, especially windward.

A quick look at your sail plan, its aspect ratio, with or without the jib, gives clear insight on the S9 potential.

What I say is:  your boat as already a strong disadvantage since the drawing board.

You just need to crunch a few figures related to the "EFFECTIVE ASPECT RATIO" of your S9 to understand this point.

 And according to the actual apparent wind angles on foiling boats, what is relevant windward is also relevant downwind, as the change in AWA is tiny when going from 45° to 115° of TWA.

Of course, this remark is relevant only if you actually crunch any figures before designing a boat, don't you??

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4 hours ago, Erwankerauzen said:

ITA16,

You should not focuse on trying to demonstrate your S9 can keep up with A-Cat, especially windward.

A quick look at your sail plan, its aspect ratio, with or without the jib, gives clear insight on the S9 potential.

What I say is:  your boat as already a strong disadvantage since the drawing board.

You just need to crunch a few figures related to the "EFFECTIVE ASPECT RATIO" of your S9 to understand this point.

 And according to the actual apparent wind angles on foiling boats, what is relevant windward is also relevant downwind, as the change in AWA is tiny when going from 45° to 115° of TWA.

Of course, this remark is relevant only if you actually crunch any figures before designing a boat, don't you??

 I'm sorry to contradict you, but the reality is different, the realy results are always the ones seen in the water, doing comparative tests.

I built and competed in A cat at the highest level for 28 years, I think I know what I say and what I see.

Greetings . 

Michele 

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Plug #1 phase 2:  after the PVA was sprayed on the good hull, a layer of gel coat was applied, then a layer of fg mat, then a scrimmed balsa core to the fg mat (see pic).

The balsa core will be filled, then covered with another layer of fg mat.  The entire mold should be popped off the hull late this afternoon.

Comments please?

Charlie

 

 

balsa.jpg

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You're only 1/2 way there, you need to bond on some wood stringers to retain the shape both around the curve but also along the length, at the moment it will be way to floppy to use as a mould even with an outer layer.

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Thank you Waynemarlow.

After the pic was taken the voids were filled and another layer of fg was bonded on top of the piece. 

The mold was popped off the hull this evening.  I will go over tomorrow morning and take a few pics - see how stiff it is.

My friend Fred Lindsey is doing the work - I have no experience or skills for this project.  The sailplane repair shops didn't want to touch it.

 

Waynemarlow - thank you for sticking to the positive aspects of this forum.  

Charlie

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Looking good Charlie, would have thought the builder could have sold you a repair piece straight out of the mould but maybe the shipping cost would negate this. Anyway hope you get the boat back on the water asap. Would like to see one in the flesh.

 

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"Would like to see one in the flesh."

Me too!!!!!!!

Is there any S9s on the Mid-Atlantic US? 

Cheers,

 

 

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Probably trying to tell you what you already know but this is how I would do the repair.

When you make the part, layup the outer layer and foam oversize by 100mm to begin with and vacumn bag it into the mould, measure out the exact size needed + 25mm larger on all sides than the area needed, mark it on the foam and once set cut it to size and mark the boat. Now put a backing two layers of light glass on the inner layer of the boat for a distance of about 50mm inwards from the cut section ( it stiffens the inner layer which you will need to have reasonably stiff as the inner layer will be your only way of overlapping and bonding the new and old together ). Cut the outer glass layer and foam on the boat to the overall size of the new piece. It should now leave you with a 25mm inner glass layer ready for the patch to be bonded in, check for fit and the whole piece should now sit proud by less than the thickness of the inner layer of glass.

Now reduce the foam thickness with a sanding block 1 -2 mm for 35mm inwards ( to allow for the extra thickness of the new inner glass layer ). Back in the mold and put the inner glass in ( do lightly sand the foam and put a layer of epoxy and glass bubbles over the  foam before laying on the glass ) Layup the glass over and you should now have a nice reduced section to bond onto the inner layer giving the required thickness.

Bond it in using a bit of Collodial Silica as a thicknesser and it will stop the epoxy squidging out the sides. You can use self tapping screws to pull the outer and inner layers together if you drill the out layer to give a bit of clearance but not the foam, the screws will come back out once bonded if theres no glue on the foam section.

Now the easy bit, once set, chamfer the outer layers at about 40:1 ( you can guess it but you can get really good at it with a bit of practice by measuring the chamfer width on the layers of glass ). Lay in the new top layer with an extra layer over the chamfer, let it set and then chamfer the top layer back to get a flat section. The extra layer acts as a sacrificial layer and to allow for difference in thickness. Make sure you are at glass level and not gelcoat level as you will now need to put a nice thick layer of gelcoat over and flat it back.

 Do ask what direction the glass is, as it may well be 0 / 90 on the inner layer and 45 /45 to the boats bias on the outer or vice a versa. It takes days to allow for each stage to set as you need at least 24hours for each bit of epoxy as any less and you can't really sand or work the epoxy, as it just balls up and ruins you sand paper, just accept that as there's no real way of hurrying things.

Best of luck.

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6 hours ago, Charlie P Mayer said:

Crazy Horse - you guessed it - shipping costs were more then the parts.

Fun little boat - pretty sure you will enjoy a ride - none over there yet?

 

6 hours ago, Charlie P Mayer said:

Crazy Horse - you guessed it - shipping costs were more then the parts.

Fun little boat - pretty sure you will enjoy a ride - none over there yet?

Not that I am aware of but I am not in a main centre, I get my fix on a classic A so I can't complain.

 

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Thank you Waynemarlow.  I will ask Mr. Fred to review your post.  The boat is painted - no gelcoat.  

Original construction is one layer of fine mesh cloth, pvc foam, a single outer layer of fine mesh, and then paint.  I'll post a pic of a debris piece.

 

Crazy Horse:  I want to see a Classic A fitted with Michele's system.  I saw a post here last year about someone willing to loan (?) their

Classic A, but I can't seem to find that post again.  The foiling parts from my crunched S9 are available for that experiment.

Not for a class-legal A of course.   (But wouldn't it be really fun to experience a Just-For-Fun Regatta with a group of "cheater" A's

racing against  both Classic and class-legal foiling A's?  No bitching allowed - and no rock stars - just the mortals. 

Well, maybe one race for Rock Stars only.  Just a thought.)

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Isn't this a single layer inside, then foam, then another layer outside?

Whatever it is, it seems to handle abuse just fine.  (Except for those big pointy F-18 bows and rotating propellers.)

Port hull section:

 

porthullpart.jpg

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On 10/13/2017 at 1:26 AM, ita 16 said:

 I'm sorry to contradict you, but the reality is different, the realy results are always the ones seen in the water, doing comparative tests.

You 'really need to stop your constant distortion of the truth. You do not make a proper comparison. The As you sail against are really poor performers who are not representative of the performance of foiling A's. I know this for a fact because of what you say

Quote

 

Acat upwind in foiling mode at about 10 degrees more to the wind direction but S9 fly at same angle and speed . 

Only A cat classic can make a better VMG in upwind . 

 

A properly sailed current foiler makes better VMG upwind than the best A cat classic in all but non trapezing conditions. As soon as you get foiling, the difference is huge. Foil an A properly upwind and you can achieve the same course heading as a Classic but you go at least 5 knots faster. Even a very average foiler like me can make better VMG than a classic, although I cannot manage the same height as the good guys achieve. If it is one of the top guys, they can now point higher and go something like 8-9 knots faster than a classic while the very best achieve significant bursts of even faster speed. So if the A foilers you are comparing  the S9 against cannot make better VMG than a classic, they really are weak and cannot be used as a comparison.

Quote

I built and competed in A cat at the highest level for 28 years, I think I know what I say and what I see.

More "fake news". You used to sail and build A's, but you have not built an A that was competitive on the world stage for something like 10-15 years. You have not competed in the fleet against modern foilers. You are so out of date and out of touch it isn't even funny any more. 

Once again, nobody denies the S9 is a great boat. It is good enough to stand on its own and doesn't need comparison with an A.

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7 hours ago, A Class Sailor said:

You 'really need to stop your constant distortion of the truth. You do not make a proper comparison. The As you sail against are really poor performers who are not representative of the performance of foiling A's. I know this for a fact because of what you say

A properly sailed current foiler makes better VMG upwind than the best A cat classic in all but non trapezing conditions. As soon as you get foiling, the difference is huge. Foil an A properly upwind and you can achieve the same course heading as a Classic but you go at least 5 knots faster. Even a very average foiler like me can make better VMG than a classic, although I cannot manage the same height as the good guys achieve. If it is one of the top guys, they can now point higher and go something like 8-9 knots faster than a classic while the very best achieve significant bursts of even faster speed. So if the A foilers you are comparing  the S9 against cannot make better VMG than a classic, they really are weak and cannot be used as a comparison.

More "fake news". You used to sail and build A's, but you have not built an A that was competitive on the world stage for something like 10-15 years. You have not competed in the fleet against modern foilers. You are so out of date and out of touch it isn't even funny any more. 

Once again, nobody denies the S9 is a great boat. It is good enough to stand on its own and doesn't need comparison with an A.

Have you ever built competitive A class?

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11 hours ago, Charlie P Mayer said:

Isn't this a single layer inside, then foam, then another layer outside?

Whatever it is, it seems to handle abuse just fine.  (Except for those big pointy F-18 bows and rotating propellers.)

Port hull section:

 

porthullpart.jpg

Charlie, not necessarily, Michelle will give you the layup ( or he should ) if you agree confidentiality. Some boat builders are a little paranoia about home builders but my guess is that there's more than 1 layer of glass on both sides to get the dent protection and durability that beach cats need. I would also guess there's a very light coat of gelcoat or an alternative on the outer coat, pulling direct resin exposure to the surface of a mold is really tough on the mold and normally shortens the molds life significantly. I am aware however that there are some pretty good mold release stuff on the market which may now negate that argument.

If all else fails re the layup, cut a small section and set it on fire with a blow torch carefully melting and burning the resin. If you do it carefully you should be just left with the strands of glass and their direction. Then measure with a micrometer an un-burnt piece of the glass layup, look on the internet and you will quickly see an approximate weight of the glass used. The foam is pretty standard closed cell 10mm foam by the looks. Its some times better in making small panel replacement pieces in a slightly heavier foam weight, it just makes handling it easier and when you use a heat gun to form it around corners, it seems to bend and hold its width better.

Have a look on http://www.easycomposites.co.uk/#!/fabric-and-reinforcement/glass-fibre-reinforcement/woven-glass-fabric for most fabrics and I think the same company has some good videos and advice documents.

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ACS probably in truth the S9 sailors are not in the world class league ( maybe they are ? ) as was the sailors of the A's, aren't we comparing in a probably pretty coarse sort of way, like for like.

Anyway as is shown in every competition of late of the A's, those who put the time and development in, seem to have a huge advantage over those who don't. I think that's one of the advantages of the T Foils with wands, they equalise that out a bit as they take a bit of the foil management out of the equation and let the sailor concentrate on the sailing aspect.

I don't think the T foils will be as fast but I personally think we need to take a bit of the skill level out out of the foils as otherwise we will see a huge churn of owners who can't quite cut the grade. The T foil boats would be that nice in between for the sailor who can't commit to every weekend practicing. 

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11 hours ago, A Class Sailor said:

You 'really need to stop your constant distortion of the truth. You do not make a proper comparison. The As you sail against are really poor performers who are not representative of the performance of foiling A's. I know this for a fact because of what you say

A properly sailed current foiler makes better VMG upwind than the best A cat classic in all but non trapezing conditions. As soon as you get foiling, the difference is huge. Foil an A properly upwind and you can achieve the same course heading as a Classic but you go at least 5 knots faster. Even a very average foiler like me can make better VMG than a classic, although I cannot manage the same height as the good guys achieve. If it is one of the top guys, they can now point higher and go something like 8-9 knots faster than a classic while the very best achieve significant bursts of even faster speed. So if the A foilers you are comparing  the S9 against cannot make better VMG than a classic, they really are weak and cannot be used as a comparison.

More "fake news". You used to sail and build A's, but you have not built an A that was competitive on the world stage for something like 10-15 years. You have not competed in the fleet against modern foilers. You are so out of date and out of touch it isn't even funny any more. 

Once again, nobody denies the S9 is a great boat. It is good enough to stand on its own and doesn't need comparison with an A.

 

Sorry ACS, your argument is not correct, It is not 10 to 15 years, it is more than 20 years they do not have any meaningfull results in the A -Cat series.

And to be totally transparent, they achieved their results only in Europe when the fleet was at 90% bimare, so no actual competition, but a handfull of plywood-DIY  attendees.

As soon as Goodall /Boyer boats were available in Europe, they disappeared  gradually from the market.

The problem they have is very simple: They have no actual R&D . while they have been operating in a very competitive environment:  Where Greg Goodall is ingeneer, 

                                                                    Mischa too  and the same for

                                                                    Jackub which in addition is cooperating with a designer who                                                                           has experience in the AC.

The Petruccis used to market Tornado until  Fred Le Peutrec*  saw his bimare Tornado self desintegrated in "Baie de La Baule" in 1992.

* French competitor in Tornado @ Olympic Atlanta / Savannah 1996.

 

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Waynemarlow - Michele did send me his layup specs, so we're ok there.  Hoping to get it back on the water by November 10th.

 

Even today the A Cat has a reputation as a tough boat to foil properly.  The S9 still has a reputation as a boat that is easy to foil.  If you add in the durability and price issues the boats are even further apart.  IMHO if you want to compete with Ashby and Mahoney and Mischa - buy an A Cat.  If you want to learn foiling easily and inexpensively and compete in local regattas - or just pleasure sail - the S9 is for you.  Perhaps if the S9 were not such an overachiever the A cat comparisons would have never started.

I agree with Waynemarlow's post above.  The rock stars gravitate toward the A Cat, the rest of us toward the S9 or similar boats.

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15 hours ago, PYC said:

Have you ever built competitive A class?

Yes

12 hours ago, Waynemarlow said:

ACS probably in truth the S9 sailors are not in the world class league ( maybe they are ? ) as was the sailors of the A's, aren't we comparing in a probably pretty coarse sort of way, like for like.

Not at all. Michelle is saying that only an A Class Classic can make better VMG upwind than an S9 but the S9 beats A foilers. I am saying that you have to be a poor foiling A sailor if you aren't beating Classics upwind and that on a like for like sailor basis, an A foiler will be significantly faster than a Classic. This didn't used to be the case, but things have moved on. Even if you are not foiling upwind, a good foiler boat should now be faster upwind in all but the lightest conditions with like for like sailors. Therefore. his analysis is wrong because he is comparing the S9 against poor A foiler sailors.

6 hours ago, Charlie P Mayer said:

I agree with Waynemarlow's post above.  The rock stars gravitate toward the A Cat, the rest of us toward the S9 or similar boats.

You seem to be unaware of the make up of the A fleet. It does attract rock stars but they represent less than 5% of the fleet at major championships and they rarely appear the rest of the time. The vast majority are just regular sailors like the people who post on this forum. Go check out the US fleet. With no disrespect intended, it is not made up of rock star sailors. This is why we get such big turnouts. The vast majority of people sailing foiling A's are nothing more than regular guys and girls who are "weekend warriors".

6 hours ago, Charlie P Mayer said:

Even today the A Cat has a reputation as a tough boat to foil properly.

Sorry, Charlie,the reputation thing is a distortion of reality. I cannot deny the reputation is there, but it comes from people who aren't in a position to properly comment.  I admit an A isn't as easy as the S9, but we are not talking about something like the difference between a UFO and a Moth. Anybody who tells you that sailing a foiling A isn't attainable by the average sailor hasn't sailed a properly set up A. Just like you found with the S9, if you don't have the set up right, life is hard. A badly set up A looks impossible to sail and feels impossible to sail. From the comments you and other S9 sailors have made, it was very clear that the basics of how you sail both the A and the S9 are very similar but i believe you need to refine the same skills a little more for the A, which is achievable for most.

All this misses something important. The A and the S9 appeal to different types of people and it isn't just about how easy or hard they are to sail. All sorts of other things come into play. The boats aren't in competition with each other, except in the mind of Michelle. The market is more than big enough to support both classes, and others as well.

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 Some action from New Caledonia friends .

 

received_10212379495034401.jpeg

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received_10212379493634366.jpeg

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