Doug Lord

14' Stunt S9 Foiling Cat

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I never understood how one could be struck by a rudder on a foiler - didn't make sense to me - until yesterday.

Good wind for a change - 18 with gusts to 25.

Trap line knot came loose - dumbass knot tie er.

Seems like slow motion:  great upwind speed, on the wire, then bang!  falling down, kept the sheet, watching loose trap line fly to leeward, hull climbing over me while I hit the water, rudder got me on the life jacket, then a quick stop with the boat on it's side.

Bent the rudder rake adjustment bar.  No other damage to me or the boat.  Lucky.

This was 2 minutes into the race - glad I wore the full wet suit. 

Thrill of foiling still very exciting - seems surreal - glad I started this.

Repairs on the double-crunched boat start anew this week.

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Was Vincenzo Sorrentino .

Ex Nacra 17 , Tornato , A cat pro sailor in Italy . 

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This is also just a guess: If the boat is allowed to slow down too much prior to the gybe, the apparent wind angle can change quite a bit. Having more twist ensures that at least part of the sail will be trimmed properly, in that case.

Of course, it's better to maintain as much speed as possible during the gybe to keep the apparent wind forward. If that is done, the boom does not come across violently; it's more like a tack in light-air.

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Thank you monochrome and Doug Halsey.  Michele confirmed this morning that the jib's effect on the bottom part of the sail allows a tighter traveler setting downwind, and the slack(er) mainsheet results in more twist.  Result is that some of the main is always drawing during a gybe and an earlier "flop" on the main.  Vicenzo has it pretty well dialed in - we'll try it here when we can.  Seems that this would also apply to the Whisper.  Martin?

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I haven't tried for foiling gybes yet. So far I've been perfecting light wind foiling, mostly on reaches, and fun rides with friends and visitors. (Foiling with my mother in law > gybes).

I'll need a pretty "on" crew to pull it off, I think. In part because downwind the balance/stability mode of the boat is different and I don't have it dialled in yet. 

An extra variable is the kite. Moves center of pressure very high, balance is challenging, specially sailing deep. 

In theory, I'd try for a pretty twisted mainsail, so some of the sail is working all the time through the apparent wind changes.

Also of note - in light conditions I get foiling with less twist and much smaller mainsheet adjustment. More of the sail working when trimmed just right.

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Stunt 9's for sale in Texas.

We have 2 brand new Stunt 9's left for sale. We are willing to let them go for $18,500. That is less than we paid for them with the shipping from Italy.  The boat really is probably the easiest sailing craft to learn to foil on.

PM me if interested.

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Fly tack Fly . Easy foiling upwind on S9 

 

 

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https://m.facebook.com/story.php?story_fbid=605135343153705&id=544435352557038 

Vincenzo make foiling gibe at first S9 Class rece 2018 session .

7 S9 come to thist firsth event ,

Vincenzo have also win in real time on a same race against A cat , f18 ,  wind was gusty 8 to 15 Knods .

We are all happy for performance  results. 

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1 hour ago, Charlie P Mayer said:

Added a code zero kit by Matt Bell of Outlaw Sailing.

Interesting set of obstacles to add a code zero to what was once a unirig.

Very cool! Converging towards Whisper territory ;-) 

Too many questions I'd like to ask, so I'll just say don't stop tinkering! :-)

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On ‎6‎/‎23‎/‎2018 at 5:50 AM, Charlie P Mayer said:

Fastest I have ever sailed - and now that it is on the interweb it must  be true.

Have no idea what caused the GPS to go nuts.

S9 double turbo rigging test.

https://youtu.be/X7YMrVyVRMY

I've seen >100knots while recovering from a capsize!

Sometimes, especially when underwater, the signals from one or more satellites will get lost & then give bogus speeds as they blink back on. (the positions can jump slightly, giving huge spikes in speed if the device doesn't filter them out).

 

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Video of yesterday's test here: 

Still some things to work out, mainly with technique.  CZ has no cleat, so getting on and off the wire is a challenge.  I run out of hands pretty quickly.

Frustrating day, very shifty, gusts were far apart.  I had never experienced a spin or CZ auto-tack until yesterday.

A challenge to sail well.  I like that.  Seems like it will be a real mess in a capsize.

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On 7/11/2018 at 6:07 PM, Charlie P Mayer said:

Video of yesterday's test here: 

Still some things to work out, mainly with technique.  CZ has no cleat, so getting on and off the wire is a challenge.  I run out of hands pretty quickly.

Frustrating day, very shifty, gusts were far apart.  I had never experienced a spin or CZ auto-tack until yesterday.

A challenge to sail well.  I like that.  Seems like it will be a real mess in a capsize.

Well done Charlie .

Seem that it work wery well now . 

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Hi Charlie . RED seems good . 

FB_IMG_1532250551119.jpg

FB_IMG_1532250519368.jpg

FB_IMG_1532250524480.jpg

FB_IMG_1532250547400.jpg

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red is the fastest color.....

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This is the third year we've been sailing the S9 here in Texas.  In high winds it is just a real hoot to sail.

In lighter winds, not so much.  Our lake has light and shifty winds all summer - not good for foiling.

Finger-shaped gusts rule the day:  if you are lucky you sail right past your buddies, or....you know.

The jib kit added last year helped a lot, but more was needed in light air.  Matt Bell at Outlaw Sailing (https://www.outlawsailing.com) developed a Code Zero kit  for the S9.

I purchased a kit from him and have been experimenting with it.  It seems that we now have a reliable, effective setup.

The bows were not designed or built to handle the stress of a bridle wire or such pulling the bows together.

The Code Zero and the jib both initially suffered from inadequate luff tension.

We added a bow spreader a la Nacra 5.5 between the bows, and a dolphin striker under that to keep the Code Zero luff tight.

Seems to work, see video link below.  Sorry for the long length but I hope you think it was worth it.

Feedback is appreciated - still sorting this out.  Great fun.

Please listen to the dialogue between the helm and his son - makes me smile every time I hear it - training the next generation on a proper platform.

https://youtu.be/Lmb2R0hkiBQ

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Last 5 minutes of the video are from the chase boat - different perspective.

Light wind, finger gusts, no white caps of any sort, heavy boat chop.

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Good feed back, thank you very much.

Everybody is happy to see that the boat is still in her development phase.... since 2012.

Wish you the best

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 Fantastic, this is really a great and fun thing.

Great work Charlie.

Thank you for having developed this system.

This boat never ceases to amaze me.

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The S9 with the Code Zero will be in Miami!

UFO #4 "Squirt" will be transferring from central Texas to Miami just before Labor Day!

Whisper Cat foiler Martin Langhoff convinced me to bring it to him in Miami.

We'll have a Foiling 1/2 Week:  Whisper, UFO, S9, A Cat (maybe).

Anybody care to join us?  Sailing days August 31 through September 4.

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Yay yes! Ping Charlie of me for more info if you'd like to join. The more the merrier. We'll make base at Miami Rowing Club for sailing, and my apt building for BBQ...

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It would be nice to see pictures and moovies  of this event.

Have a good fun mates. 

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Hi all,

Changing the topic.  How long does it take to rig the S9 from trailer to sailing?  Do you flip it to intall the T foils?  Any videos?

Cheers,

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vaplaya:  about 5 minutes longer than a comparable displacement cat - to attach the main foils to the main boards.

Setup for the mast, sails, and rudders takes no longer than other cats.

Main board inserts from the top, precise extension on bottom of the board fits into a mating socket built into the foil.

After the two parts are mated,  a single long screw holds the foil to the board.

Will check video library - should have something somewhere.

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Thanks for the info. I see it.

I am surprised that only one bolt can hold the foil in place under sail.  I assume  those foils also change the AOA according the feedback from the wands.

I have been following the S9 for a while and always loved the concept, however I have to many toys right now. 

Cheers,

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vaplaya:  I think the precision socket is the key - when mated without the screw, the parts still don't separate easily.  The long screw keeps the assembly rigid.

There is a worm-gear mechanism at the top that allows gross aoa adjustment for entire board/foil.  We usually set this at max lift unless it is blowing like stink or if it is displacement conditions.  Your weight shift fore and aft significantly alters aoa: most sailors weigh more than the boat.

The flap at the back of the foil is wand activated.  All in all, the system works very well - predictable handling, stable.  

This is a little boat - less than 14 feet.  Certainly not the fastest foiler, but perhaps the easiest to foil.

 

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S9 will be at Destination Daytona tomorrow around 11:30 +/- if anyone wants to see it.

Friday - Tuesday at Miami Rowing Club for sailing, telling stories, perhaps a beverage or two, and perhaps a sale?

PM me if you want to meet at Destination Daytona.

 

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First Miami group sail today for the UFO, S9, and Whisper.  The older young man in the picture (Martin's son) ran the Code zero, the main sheet, and steered a bit on the S9.

For some reason, he crashed and fell asleep at dinner.  

Martin, thank you for arranging this!  Great fun!

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Sailed Friday in the bay.  Mats of Sargassum weed  made extended foiling difficult.  The S9 rudders would cavitate spectacularly when they grabbed a load of weed.

Very pleased with the code zero - makes a huge difference downwind.  (Furling requires a tight mainsheet.)  Martin's son (8) sailed with me on the S9.

Getting under the high bridge out to the bay was an adventure:  current was faster than boat speed.  Took two tries.  This never happens at the lake ^_^

The Whisper found a sand bar.  Weta went out with us, didn't mind the weed as much as the foilers.  

New maneuver:  when weed loads up, stay on the wire, head up, sail backward a bit to clear weed, then bear off and off you go.  Looks odd, but it works.

 

Sailed yesterday in the upper bay - good wind.  Alec (from Miami) sailed the S9, several of us sailed the UFO.  Best sail I've had on the UFO.

 

Martin hosted a nice bbq at his condo for all the sailors - great fun.  Thank you Martin!

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Yesterday started with spectacular lightning and heavy drizzle.  A little after noon the sun and the wind arrived.  

The Whisper, UFO, Weta, and S9 went out for several runs.  The sandy beach on the narrow lagoon at Miami Rowing Club is a sweet setup for Martin and the other sailors.

Martin and son Alessandro trained a lot on the UFO.  Nick, Martin, and Peter tag-teamed the Whisper while I sailed the S9.  (Nick flew in from Austria,  Peter from Minnesota.)  

Martin arranged for me and my wife to rent a cottage from his sailing buddy Javier.  Javier's cottage was a great place to stay in Miami, highly recommended.  Javier sailed with his daughter on a bright yellow Weta.

The S9 did not need the Code Zero yesterday.  Nice steady wind out on the bay, moderate waves.  Nuclear, unstable gusts in the lagoon made for a real joyride through the moored boats and the jet skis.  The S9 handled the conditions with its usual pep and stability - it was a real joy to sail in those conditions.  Best foiling conditions I've seen in many months.  Boat could go from 5 knots to 20 in about three seconds - thrilling!  The S9 never capsized or broke anything, but the knots on my home-built soft shackles don't seem to hold very well.

Bill and Eric Roberts dropped by to chat and take pictures.  They had good questions - stimulating conversation - thank you Bill and Eric!

(Bill and Eric are probably still laughing at my aborted launch off the beach yesterday: I put down the rudders okay, but an unattended line jammed the steering.  The S9 just continued its turn into I hit the beach.  Rudders weren't cinched down yet, so no harm done.  Just a dumbass at the helm.  Eric helped me turn around and get started again - thank you Eric.)

The group ended the day at a nearby Mediterranean/Chinese/Mexican restaurant.  We chatted and munched on a sidewalk table until sleep took over.

Woke this morning to find us under Tropical Storm Gordon - don't think we'll get to sail today.  Martin should have comment and video on the Whisper thread.

 

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sail(plane): I didn't get to sail the Whisper yet, but for me the S9 on foils is more stable and easier to sail than the UFO, but the UFO is easier to set up, and you don't need experience with a trapeze.  Personal preference between these two boats:  if you have dinghy experience you will likely prefer the UFO. 

The Whisper is a very light boat with a tall rig - really need to be on your toes in gusty conditions.  Hard for me to say more without sailing it.  

We did get to sail the Whisper and S9 together on the bay yesterday, but the Whisper sailors were still training, not pushing it.

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@Charlie P Mayer what a fantastic writeup, thank you! I'll add a bit of color.

Long story short, between Friday and Sunday midday the Whisper was, um, accident prone and needing TLC. Amazing group got the boat back on track. Sunday around midday the thunderstorms cleared, and we had amazing foiling in what I'd say was 12-18kt in a sheltered part of the bay. In the more open areas, seemed to blow 20+, and we didn't want to risk it as they're further away and thunderstorms whip up in minutes in this weather.

Peter and Nick and myself sailed mixing up crew/helm combinations, Nick sails with some leeward heel, slightly more forward on the boat; I sail with slight Veal (windward) heel (except downwind) and walk a bit more astern to pop up. Peter tried both styles. We all steer similarly, I think, gentle bearaway to get on foils.

I have one video of both boats at the same time, but the Whisper wasn't sailing or foiling (I had changed foil rake, and Peter and Nick were puzzling over it), by the time they were sorted and foiling, the Stunt was out of the frame :-/

As a Whisper sailor, my observation is that the S9 is more "automatic". Charlie seems to have a sweet spot -- body position, sail trim -- and works the tiller a bit, and the boat does the magic. On the Whisper, mainsheet is on a ratchet block, and you work it. 

Both S9 and Whisper have captains that have them sorted out with lots of soft shackles and little tricks for quick rigging. Not sure what's the out-of-the-box experience. 

The Whisper likes Veal heel in upwind/reach, Charlie says S9 doesn't. I really want to try the S9.

Finally, my son broke through his mild fear of the UFO, we had some bunny hops on Sat, some long Kangaroo hops on Sunday (foiled full height, came crashing down into a flamboyant capsize), and he was exultant. Jumping triumphantly atop the capsized boat. We sailed it together, his body weight isn't enough to recover, and tacking and getting out of irons will take some practice.

UFO #4 "Squirt" will stay in Miami, it seems. 

We left the boats reasonably well sorted out, but on the beach where we cannot not fully tie them down. This morning I ran to the club to move them to their appropriate spots, and tie them down properly.

Luckily it seems like today we'll get the brunt of it, and tomorrow will be civilized. Fingers crossed...

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S9 and Whisper had a Chamber of Commerce day on the bay yesterday.  Martin sailed the S9, I got to sail the Whisper, Alec crewed on both.

I wouldn't recommend this, but the S9 foiled with two aboard:  185 and 155 pounds.  My best on the S9 was 24 mph, Martin, first time on the S9, clocked 23 mph.

I did get the Whisper to foil with Alec as crew.  Whisper does not react the same way as the S9 (I've yet to sail two foilers that react similarly).

S9 seems perky and lively, Whisper feels like a much larger boat.

Video in the works, stay tuned.

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love this mini Miami Foiling Week- please write a report on the differences between the foilers after all is done

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SailP,  I was thinking the same thing. I wish this Mini Foiling Week could take place a little higher up in latitude. Say the MidAtlantic.  :)

Great videos. It almost makes me want to go out and buy a foiler. 

Cheers, 

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46 minutes ago, vaplaya said:

It almost makes me want to go out and buy a foiler.

well that's easy to cure -- buy one ;-)

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Two fantastic boats. Which one to get? Easy:

  • Sailing mostly singlehanded? Stunt S9 (you can carry a +1)
  • Sailing mostly 2 up? Whisper (can solo, or carry a +1)

All you need is enough depth - about 1.50m - and enough wind: 7kt steady will do, though 9kt-12kt steady is the sweet spot. At 20+kt these boats get really hard to control.

The Whisper seems to me more flexible, I can work foil rake and ride height, which gives me a wider range of crew weight handling and wind conditions (ie: depower the foils in heavy weather). It wants, and rewards, an active crew - walk the boat for balance, work the mainsheet. Think 49er crew. You can use "Veal heel" working upwind, and it tracks really well. 

The borders of its "zone" are soft, you're sometimes dancing on the threshold and you can do stuff to get flying: play with mainsheet and balance, pump the boat/rig, use foil rake differential, etc. When it foils, it is smooth. You still have to work the mainsheet and some fore-aft balance. It has a large screecher spinnaker -- so in light conditions a crafty crew can get it flying earlier. The foils package is easier to handle in shallow approaches (slide-up rudders).

S9 seems - in my very limited sailing - a more binary boat. The "zone" has hard edges. If you have the right conditions (wind, mainsheet, body position), it'll suddently "switch on" in a literal snap and fly. You better hang on tight -- it's a train on tracks. Or on cobblestones because the wand-foil linkage is so tight it rattles.

The wand-foil package is so effective stabilizing the boat it's fantastic, it's scary and... I can't do Veal heel! I'm intrigued how it tracks upwind.

Charlie's S9 has a (non-standard) furling screecher spinnaker, he sailed it with my son. Very clever and fun, though I don't have a read on minimum wind for flight.

It's taken both of us some work to get the boats from "out of the box" to their current tuning, can't compare the process.

At current tuning, skills and in the conditions we sailed, the S9 was faster (and more "automatic") on a broad reach than a 2-up Whisper with experienced crew (me) and first-time-foiling helm. 

With a bit of work and polished helm/crew setup, we can get the Whisper to match the S9 on a broad reach. This weekend, the Whisper was setup for rough play, not for speed (ie: beater repaired foils instead of the just-arrived-from-UK new foils).

Soloing the Whisper I was significantly slower than 2 up, on back-to-back runs of the same stretch of bay, same wind, much to my surprise. When I crew, there's a lot more mainsheet and footwork, and I can now say that's worth about 5kt of extra speed(!!!).

Both boats are crazy light, have a mix of incredibly strong and incredibly weak parts. Some sacrificial parts designed to break "defending" an expensive/complex part. Each boat has their own set of brilliant details, and clever tricks.

Alongside the brilliance, both boats have minor bothers I leave out. The speed is so addictive that you quickly get over them ;-)

Too bad boats can't reproduce sexually to mix the alleles. 

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4 hours ago, martin.langhoff said:

well that's easy to cure -- buy one ;-)

Yeap!!!!  To many boats now and recovering from shoulder surgery.   No BeachCat sailing yet this season. There is maybe fall and always next season. 

Do not worry about me, though. I have been on the water a lot and will continue this season; it just have been motorized. B)

I will have to watch the video again to hear the swearing; I understand Spanish swearing. :D

Cheers, 

P.S. I know!!! There no such thing as "to many boats"   

 

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1 hour ago, martin.langhoff said:

Two fantastic boats. Which one to get? Easy:

  • Sailing mostly singlehanded? Stunt S9 (you can carry a +1)
  • Sailing mostly 2 up? Whisper (can solo, or carry a +1)

All you need is enough depth - about 1.50m - and enough wind: 7kt steady will do, though 9kt-12kt steady is the sweet spot. At 20+kt these boats get really hard to control.

The Whisper seems to me more flexible, I can work foil rake and ride height, which gives me a wider range of crew weight handling and wind conditions (ie: depower the foils in heavy weather). It wants, and rewards, an active crew - walk the boat for balance, work the mainsheet. Think 49er crew. You can use "Veal heel" working upwind, and it tracks really well. 

The borders of its "zone" are soft, you're sometimes dancing on the threshold and you can do stuff to get flying: play with mainsheet and balance, pump the boat/rig, use foil rake differential, etc. When it foils, it is smooth. You still have to work the mainsheet and some fore-aft balance. It has a large screecher spinnaker -- so in light conditions a crafty crew can get it flying earlier. The foils package is easier to handle in shallow approaches (slide-up rudders).

S9 seems - in my very limited sailing - a more binary boat. The "zone" has hard edges. If you have the right conditions (wind, mainsheet, body position), it'll suddently "switch on" in a literal snap and fly. You better hang on tight -- it's a train on tracks. Or on cobblestones because the wand-foil linkage is so tight it rattles.

The wand-foil package is so effective stabilizing the boat it's fantastic, it's scary and... I can't do Veal heel! I'm intrigued how it tracks upwind.

Charlie's S9 has a (non-standard) furling screecher spinnaker, he sailed it with my son. Very clever and fun, though I don't have a read on minimum wind for flight.

It's taken both of us some work to get the boats from "out of the box" to their current tuning, can't compare the process.

At current tuning, skills and in the conditions we sailed, the S9 was faster (and more "automatic") on a broad reach than a 2-up Whisper with experienced crew (me) and first-time-foiling helm. 

With a bit of work and polished helm/crew setup, we can get the Whisper to match the S9 on a broad reach. This weekend, the Whisper was setup for rough play, not for speed (ie: beater repaired foils instead of the just-arrived-from-UK new foils).

Soloing the Whisper I was significantly slower than 2 up, on back-to-back runs of the same stretch of bay, same wind, much to my surprise. When I crew, there's a lot more mainsheet and footwork, and I can now say that's worth about 5kt of extra speed(!!!).

Both boats are crazy light, have a mix of incredibly strong and incredibly weak parts. Some sacrificial parts designed to break "defending" an expensive/complex part. Each boat has their own set of brilliant details, and clever tricks.

Alongside the brilliance, both boats have minor bothers I leave out. The speed is so addictive that you quickly get over them ;-)

Too bad boats can't reproduce sexually to mix the alleles. 

excellent! thank you Martin!

what about the UFO?

now let´s wait for Charlie´s view

 

 

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33 minutes ago, sail(plane) said:

excellent! thank you Martin!

what about the UFO?

My pleasure. I have barely gotten started with the UFO. It's different enough that I'll have to learn a bit on it. There's a short writeup on the little sailing we did on it on the UFO thread.

Between the two cats, Charlie and I could swap and be foiling in 30 seconds. The UFO is more like a moth and I've never (yet) flown a boat like that. My one try with a Waszp had the boat set up wrong and it was all capsizes.  

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Please read this before you watch the video;

This is boat abuse:  max recommended is about 210 pounds.  We are sailing at about 335 pounds body weight, plus wet gear.

Crew is Alec Bollorino, moved here from Italy, Civil Engineer building big things in Miami.  I am half deaf and I don't speak Italian, so you might pick up a few miscommunications in the video.  Alec is trying to sell his rotomolded Hobie so he can buy an S9.  

If you watch the speeds, you'll see that Alec achieved a higher speed than I did.  

S9 is NOT set up for people sitting on the hull and foiling.  You simply cannot shift your weight quickly enough to keep the boat level.  

Please don't try this at home!

 

https://youtu.be/2zwSAkdFl5Q

 

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As Martin said, with me and Martin driving,  the S9 in those conditions was a markedly faster boat.  I have no idea why.

The videos will show that the Whisper tends to drag the sailors butts in the water.  On the UFO the solution is to sheet in quickly and let the sail pull you up.  I suspect the Whisper will respond similarly, but that huge mainsail only had a 6:1(?) mainsheet and I was far too wimpy to sheet it in fast enough.  End result is you have to really honk on it, but it does eventually right itself and foil nicely, but you lose a lot of time getting your butt out of the water.  

The S9 is not a good light air boat.  That's why the jib and code zero were added.  The Whisper may have an edge in light air.

The S9 requires a lot of foot work fore/aft and a lot of coordinated tiller work to keep things level.  Can't do that while sitting on the hull.

My summary below, not quite the same as Martin's (but that's why we have both chocolate and vanilla):

The Whisper is a highly-refined high power machine that takes more skill and strength to sail quickly than the S9.  Perhaps the fittings and such are lightened to the point that failures occur - but isn't that what you expect on something like this?  The S9 target sailor is the more mainstream club-type sailor.  Ex Hobie-catters, old people, those who rather just fly around the bay than race Alan Ashby.  Accordingly, the S9 has proven to be quite durable if you keep it away from F-18s and power boats.  The penalty is a few extra pounds (~190 pounds with jib and code zero).  A good tradeoff to gain durability I think.

Anyway, going to work on more videos - next one will show my fastest and Martin's fastest.

 

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1 hour ago, Charlie P Mayer said:

 I suspect the Whisper will respond similarly, but that huge mainsail only had a 6:1(?) mainsheet and I was far too wimpy to sheet it in fast enough.

6:1 is crazy on a main like that. The A Class main is the same size and we use 10:1. The main is such a critical control on foiling cats. I suspect you would see a big improvement with a better mainsheet system.

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6 hours ago, A Class Sailor said:

6:1 is crazy on a main like that. The A Class main is the same size and we use 10:1. The main is such a critical control on foiling cats. I suspect you would see a big improvement with a better mainsheet system.

Original setup is 4:1. Most active Whisper sailors i know use 6:1 and grow muscle :-) it's all on a mid boom ratchet block btw. 10:1 might be nice but where does all that line go?

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A few more notes:  the S9 with Code Zero can develop severe lee helm - you must sheet in the main to get it back to neutral or slight weather helm.  In this case you are sheeting in to balance the helm, not to trim the main.  I rake the rudders back slightly to compensate, but if you then sail in higher winds, no code zero, without moving the rudders back, you get too much weather helm.  

Martin, we were sailing with the rudders in "code zero position"  and with the resultant weather helm.  Two turns on the adjuster - on the water - would have fixed that.

I don't what I was thinking when I said "just sheet in".  That was a bad answer.  Sorry about that.

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Remember the discussions about wand placement?

These clips were filmed on flat water, and it might be different in chop or swell, but do you see any differences here?

FYI: "foil  base" on the S9 is about 54 inches.  Whisper appears to be about double that.  Difference shows up in helm sensitivity and ride quality.

Your thoughts?

https://youtu.be/48W8y8sfWXo

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Not sure who you're addressing. My 2c...

I've heard lots about this coming from wand-forward-of-foil proponents, and I tend to agree. It comes with convenience tradeoffs (the linkage on foil-down on the S9, the wand-crane arm on UFO), and on the Whisper it works very well. However, I am not sold on the tight coupling. The Whisper has some dampening, and I somewhat wish the S9 did. Does it have any dampening control? Bendy wand arms? 

David Clark has argued in UFO threads that the rattling, "on cobblestones" feel is something you really want. Mothies say the same. I'm not convinced. It clearly creates turbulence around the foil, and that'll have a cost in drag. And the dampening in the Whisper has allowed me to foil through nasty crisscrossed motorboat chop in the bay, without a wobble.

I'm open minded and curious about it. Which means I'll have to try the S9 in those conditions to see how it fares :-)

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Martin, I am just fishing for general comments.  In your video montage you showed the world how we swapped boats without a chase boat and you documented three completely different approaches to achieve wand-based foil control.  Fun to see the interaction of a Dad with his happy son.  

It's very interesting to read the formal papers on foiling and to share opinions and experiences in fora like this, but videos like yours pretty much show that all three approaches work.  Pretty sure other methods are workable, too.  Parallels to aviation's early days come to mind.

Breakage: no major breakages occurred - not more than one hour of sailing was lost due to breakage - we lost much more time to the tropical storm and the lightning.

Cobblestones:  yes!  that's the feeling.  The Whisper had none of that - quiet and smooth.  I never foiled the UFO enough get that effect.  The S9 can be damped by slacking the bungee  providing downforce to the wands (cleat in the middle of the tramp).  That may affect ride height.  Easy to document by video - need wind, though.

Cobblestone effect to me just means that you are going fast - nothing else.   Don't see how it can have any other benefit.  Perhaps someone can educate me.

Interesting to note that there are no foot straps on the S9 or the Whisper.   

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Everyone:  sorry for all drivel on here, but we were pretty pumped.  Will take awhile to process everything.

Our group included a Psychiatrist from Minnesota, a businessman from Austria, a software guru from Argentina, a Mechanical Engineer from Italy, an enthusiastic and helpful 8-year-old boy, and a wordy old retired fart from Texas.   The exchange of ideas on land was great (really good bars and restaurants down there), but to actually transfer to other boats out on the water was the highlight of the trip.  Sailing another boat for five minutes gets you an education that you just can't get through words.

We need to do more events like this - collaborative, not competitive.

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11 hours ago, Charlie P Mayer said:

Everyone:  sorry for all drivel on here, but we were pretty pumped.  Will take awhile to process everything.

Our group included a Psychiatrist from Minnesota, a businessman from Austria, a software guru from Argentina, a Mechanical Engineer from Italy, an enthusiastic and helpful 8-year-old boy, and a wordy old retired fart from Texas.   The exchange of ideas on land was great (really good bars and restaurants down there), but to actually transfer to other boats out on the water was the highlight of the trip.  Sailing another boat for five minutes gets you an education that you just can't get through words.

We need to do more events like this - collaborative, not competitive.

Charlie this is an epic thread keep the drivel coming

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23 hours ago, Charlie P Mayer said:

Interesting to note that there are no foot straps on the S9 or the Whisper.

Footstraps can mess up your knees when you dig your bows/pitchpole. Hardcore competition cats have them, because what's a knee when you're after gold?. Recreational foilers very sensibly don't -- keep the mainsheet tight and that'll establish positive pressure between your feet and the boat. On my Whisper, I added chicken lines for the skipper (who isn't normally holding the mainsheet). 

This isn't a theoretical concern. An a-cat sailor who posts here had this exact accident resulting in serious knee damage a couple months ago.

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