Doug Lord

14' Stunt S9 Foiling Cat

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Congratulations, Michele-thats great stuff!!

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New born in Stunt Garage House,
 the """ S- A cat Classic """ is added to the S series. after  firsts  tests it seems that the potential of this boat is incredible.
Do not be scared  by the fact that it is an A totally different than standard A cat, the technical solutions adopted on this new A cat seems are  very rich in performance.

IMG-20191026-WA0016.jpg

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3 hours ago, ita 16 said:

New born in Stunt Garage House,
 the """ S- A cat Classic """ is added to the S series. after  firsts  tests it seems that the potential of this boat is incredible.
Do not be scared  by the fact that it is an A totally different than standard A cat, the technical solutions adopted on this new A cat seems are  very rich in performance.

IMG-20191026-WA0016.jpg

ITA, your post is a bit difficult to understand, the "totally different" threw me off

is this an A-cat classic? does it conform to the rules of non-foiler A-cat, that is, it can compete in non foiler A-cat regattas?

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31 minutes ago, sail(plane) said:

ITA, your post is a bit difficult to understand, the "totally different" threw me off

is this an A-cat classic? does it conform to the rules of non-foiler A-cat, that is, it can compete in non foiler A-cat regattas?

exactly. Its conform  A cat classic rules

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Michele, looks great, the jib setup, do you not find downwind that the smaller main sail area becomes a problem. I know Randy Smythe tried it but with a larger jib and it failed spectacularly. I've long thought a blade jib of say less than 1.5sqm may be a good solution up wind but not sure of the downwind.

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23 minutes ago, Waynemarlow said:

Michele, looks great, the jib setup, do you not find downwind that the smaller main sail area becomes a problem. I know Randy Smythe tried it but with a larger jib and it failed spectacularly. I've long thought a blade jib of say less than 1.5sqm may be a good solution up wind but not sure of the downwind.

Why is a jib good upwind? Is that in light winds or all conditions?

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Not everyone can set a Uni sail ( which to the top sailors should be more efficient ) absolutely just right to maximise the upwind angles. Running a blade jib however smooths the airflow over the lower section of the main ( which you can now cut much more for power ), which normally is pretty disturbed air as its very close to the water on the A and allows the average sailor to see that much smoothed airflow over the tell tales, thus allowing most sailors to maximise the smaller main.

In stronger winds the advantage is that the COE is much lower and thus you can keep the power on longer before having to depower.

The downside is you loose the jib area over the mainsail size for downwind work.

We ran on our F16s whilst I still owned one, with a reduced mainsail area with the standard jib and the boat was faster in all conditions. However we could never get it through class rules and we were penalised by the jib under SCHRS to such an extent at the time that it wasn't worth continuing with the experiment. I believe that the SCHRS have now backed off on that somewhat and it is something I have been looking at again, decksweeper with very small blade jib.

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19 hours ago, Waynemarlow said:

Not everyone can set a Uni sail ( which to the top sailors should be more efficient ) absolutely just right to maximise the upwind angles. Running a blade jib however smooths the airflow over the lower section of the main ( which you can now cut much more for power ), which normally is pretty disturbed air as its very close to the water on the A and allows the average sailor to see that much smoothed airflow over the tell tales, thus allowing most sailors to maximise the smaller main.

In stronger winds the advantage is that the COE is much lower and thus you can keep the power on longer before having to depower.

The downside is you loose the jib area over the mainsail size for downwind work.

We ran on our F16s whilst I still owned one, with a reduced mainsail area with the standard jib and the boat was faster in all conditions. However we could never get it through class rules and we were penalised by the jib under SCHRS to such an extent at the time that it wasn't worth continuing with the experiment. I believe that the SCHRS have now backed off on that somewhat and it is something I have been looking at again, decksweeper with very small blade jib.

this is right . you have a very clear idea of the operation and performance of  jib. the S A in fact accelerates too much and maintains speed  more time than a standard A cat. I have raced A cat since I was 13, now I am 45, and I have always noticed that the A must be continually depower  above  7 knots  wind . with a lower sail center of gravity I can have better performance on winds above 7 knots. to this I also add an innovative and more suitable hull design for an A with sail and jib.

Normaly ,down surface main sail do not work wery well  but whith a jib I can maximize it. 

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20 hours ago, Waynemarlow said:

Michele, looks great, the jib setup, do you not find downwind that the smaller main sail area becomes a problem. I know Randy Smythe tried it but with a larger jib and it failed spectacularly. I've long thought a blade jib of say less than 1.5sqm may be a good solution up wind but not sure of the downwind.

I remember that Randy applied a jib on my V1R A cat, but I don't know the results of this test. however I wanted to create this new A after years of testing on  S9, I realized that a small jib can give a lot of power and improve mainsail  performance , with  S9 we flew with 8 knots and two people on, 75 + 87 kg weight, tack and gybe are same like Laser, but I also noticed many other hidden qualities.

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7 hours ago, ita 16 said:

I remember that Randy applied a jib on my V1R A cat, but I don't know the results of this test. however I wanted to create this new A after years of testing on  S9, I realized that a small jib can give a lot of power and improve mainsail  performance , with  S9 we flew with 8 knots and two people on, 75 + 87 kg weight, tack and gybe are same like Laser, but I also noticed many other hidden qualities.

Jibs have been tried unsuccessfully in top level competition over the years in A’s. They haven’t been able to point as huh upwind I all but drifting conditions and were slower downwind. 
The blade jib is worth a try though. You should get the boat measured by an accredited class measurer and campaign it in the IACA events although most of those are finished in Europe for the season. Bring it to the St Pete Worlds where there will be a quality Classic fleet. 
Best of luck with with it. 

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On 10/29/2019 at 12:01 PM, ita 16 said:

the """ S- A cat Classic """ is added to the S series. after  firsts  tests it seems that the potential of this boat is incredible.

For sure, The incredible potential will be the potential of a classic catamaran like 40 years ago, with specs fitting inside the A-Cat box... and a flashy color

The color makes this boat so... how can I say? ...; so..That's it.. I got it:

This amazing yellow color makes this boat so badass especially for the frenchies , for 2 reasons:

1) You might find great sucess with the Yellow Jackets, they will love the color

2)And as Yellow color in the french culture is the color of the " maris cocus" you have a very large customer base

Translation: maris = husbands

                      Cocu= It can be either an adjective or a name, you can be a mari cocu or more simply

a cocu:  It is the the embarassing situation when your wife is dicked by your best friends, your best enemies, by everybody but you and your dog.

Very marketing wise this project

       

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you have always been a detractor of the bimare and consequently also me. you, like many others here just have to keep quiet, you made a fool of yourself by giving against me and other supporters of the old A cat class in past  when the tendency was change from classic to foil , at the beginning ,and now it is clear and obvious that in many countries the A cat is almost extinct and the new A cat Classic categories increase every year by very high percentages. here you are not useful or welcome then schhhhhh. shut up.

We like clear and clean ideas , words , or sharing of experiences between unknown but friendly sailor and above all educated people

change forum . 

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I hope ITA 16’s boat is successful. We are always welcoming to new builders and the old Bimare range has been a contributor in the past. 
The statement that “in many countries thA cat is almost extinct“ appears incorrect to me. The last three Worlds have had representation from almost 20 nations and the numbers are good. The current North Americans has 62 starters and the last Aus titles good numbers. The French nationals just held were well attended. A new fleet has just started on Hong Kong. The World AGM country representatives report strong interest. 
I’d be interested to know where the class has become extinct. 

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On 10/30/2019 at 8:22 PM, WetnWild said:

Jibs have been tried unsuccessfully in top level competition over the years in A’s. They haven’t been able to point as huh upwind I all but drifting conditions and were slower downwind. 
The blade jib is worth a try though. You should get the boat measured by an accredited class measurer and campaign it in the IACA events although most of those are finished in Europe for the season. Bring it to the St Pete Worlds where there will be a quality Classic fleet. 
Best of luck with with it. 

Top level skills doesn’t always transfer down to the weekend warrior who by just sheer numbers will buy far more boats than ever the top level sailors who are few and far between will. But the weekend warrior will always be seduced by the exploits of the top level sailor, both the F18 and A Class to a lesser extent can testify to that. 
 

Although the jib doesn’t work for the world level sailor, a jib just may make that weekend warrior better than they really are, enough to get them into that next rank down from worlds and make him or her a consistent performer at club level. For the majority of boat buyers what more could you want.
 

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On 10/30/2019 at 4:22 PM, WetnWild said:

Jibs have been tried unsuccessfully in top level competition over the years in A’s. They haven’t been able to point as huh upwind I all but drifting conditions and were slower downwind. 
The blade jib is worth a try though. You should get the boat measured by an accredited class measurer and campaign it in the IACA events although most of those are finished in Europe for the season. Bring it to the St Pete Worlds where there will be a quality Classic fleet. 
Best of luck with with it. 

Jibs are great, but they move the center of aerodynamic effort forward. Your mast can be ideally located for a main only rig, or a main/jib rig, but not both. Mast rake can address the change to some degree, but imperfectly.

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Michele,

Please just remenber the results of your R&D  below.(October 2014)

It testifies of your professionalism, not Charlatanism, you are not an oil-snake vendor are you?

Don't forget to read the conclusion where you ask for fair competition!!

I love your remark about uneducated people, please show us your PhD in CFD.

A-Class: Bimare Statement on Foiling

Statement sent by Bimare –
“At Bimare we do not believe in any way that FOILING is the future of the A class.
After two year of painstaking experimentation carried out on the “Flying Stunt, a 14-foot singlehanded catamaran purposely designed and built, (we made this choice in order to avoid to destabilize the A class with a flying A cat project), we have come to the conclusion that, within the current set of rules, the A class will never fly (at least when sailed by the average week-end warrior).

In fact we were able to get a stable foiling only with the adoption of a wand-controlled double T foil system, which is not allowed by A cat rule.
However,despite our beliefs, we have decided to start to offer our A cat in three different versions (same daggerboard case) to satisfy whichever customer’s preference:

1) with straight boards;
2) with constant radius curved boards;
3) with new-latest generation- J/Z boards.

We have been constrained to take this decision exclusively for marketing reasons,
but we hope to leave this road soon when the large majority of class members will realize the error that we, as a class, are doing.
It ‘a rule of the dynamics of each sailing boat that the board is positioned on the perpendicular of the center of effort of the sail:

if you set it more forward or more backwards, you prevent your sailing boat from tacking.
Only people uneducated in dynamics can think that the longitudinal balance of a 18’ catamaran, with a center of effort of the mainsail given by a 9 m mast, then with very high leverage point, may be stable sailing out of the water relieved only by a couple of 16 cm wide foils placed under the sailing center.
In order to avoid any pitching the A class needs to be supported by four foils, best if self adjusting as on the flying Moth.
But another issue needs to be clarified:

the A class is no more at the forefront of development and experimentation.

Yes, maybe until 10 years ago we all could believe it rightly.

But now if you take a look on the web, you’ll see flying dozens of prototypes that, having no measurement rules, can incorporate all kind of foiling solutions.

With regard to its foiling capabilities the current A cats are making them laugh.
We have no chance of getting near to the performance even of the first generation foiling prototypes.

On the other hand we are achieving a different, unpleasant result:
To disaffect from our sport the majority of our class members.

Recently the (small group of the) supporters of foiling sailboats met on Lake Garda.

They faced a long journey only to have fun together and to have the opportunity to exchange technologies and opinions.

Their aim was not to win a sailing race, but to proudly show their creations to the sailing community and to the press.
On the contrary for Acatters sailing is still a sport and anyone entering a major regatta aims to bring home some silver:
It would be desirable if who wins does not take advantage of the holes in the class rules.

Let’s all go back and compete on equal terms if we want have fun in the future.”
Lallo Petrucci

Bimare-catamarans
via urbinati 13
47813 Bellaria (RN) Italy
phone: 0039-0541-333683
fax: 0039-0541-333684
bimare@bimare.org
www.bimare.org

 
 

Tags: A-Class

 

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you are boring . you have been attacking me for 15 years with false things and invented by you, always the same false things and that nobody cares about here . always write anonymously to prevent me from making legal actions against you. ps: I'm not Bimare but Catamaran Stunt, I'm not Michelangelo but Michele, I've informed you of this  thousand times but you insist on mixing things for your convenience. please, go and do charity instead of staying here and writing idiocy.

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9 hours ago, Erwankerauzen said:

You wanted to compete in equal terms, congratulations, let me attach a PDF of a document dated from October 2014 I received in December 2015 regarding this issue.

For Charlie.pdf

Which boats would your rather see sold, instead of those mentioned in the pdf?

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On Tuesday, October 29, 2019 at 5:16 PM, Waynemarlow said:

Michele, looks great, the jib setup, do you not find downwind that the smaller main sail area becomes a problem. I know Randy Smythe tried it but with a larger jib and it failed spectacularly. I've long thought a blade jib of say less than 1.5sqm may be a good solution up wind but not sure of the downwind.

Hi Wayne , afther  last test S1A seems it have a really good performance , wind was 1-4 knods , Im fast like my friend on a Zero Acat classic Bimare , a good sailor , also same angle to wind , hope to have more infos next months . 

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31 minutes ago, ita 16 said:

Hi Wayne , afther  last test S1A seems it have a really good performance , wind was 1-4 knods , Im fast like my friend on a Zero Acat classic Bimare , a good sailor , also same angle to wind , hope to have more infos next months . 

Michelle, difficult to tell in such low winds. Would have hoped for slightly better upwind angles with a jib on than a Uni rig but its all about ease of use by the average sailor that I'm looking for.

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35 minutes ago, Waynemarlow said:

Michelle, difficult to tell in such low winds. Would have hoped for slightly better upwind angles with a jib on than a Uni rig but its all about ease of use by the average sailor that I'm looking for.

Im very happy by test results because the S1A was designed for winds above 6 knots.

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On 11/1/2019 at 9:59 PM, Erwankerauzen said:

 

A-Class: Bimare Statement on Foiling

Statement sent by Bimare –
“At Bimare we do not believe in any way that FOILING is the future of the A class.
After two year of painstaking experimentation carried out on the “Flying Stunt, a 14-foot singlehanded catamaran purposely designed and built, (we made this choice in order to avoid to destabilize the A class with a flying A cat project), we have come to the conclusion that, within the current set of rules, the A class will never fly (at least when sailed by the average week-end warrior).
 

the A class is no more at the forefront of development and experimentation.

Yes, maybe until 10 years ago we all could believe it rightly.

But now if you take a look on the web, you’ll see flying dozens of prototypes that, having no measurement rules, can incorporate all kind of foiling solutions.

With regard to its foiling capabilities the current A cats are making them laugh.
We have no chance of getting near to the performance even of the first generation foiling prototypes.

 

While I have to admit this was from Lallo, it was based on the Stunt and the views expressed above were certainly being posted by Michele at the time. They really make me laugh to read them today. While it doesn't take away anything from the Stunt cats, some of the comments look stupid today.

Consider the following

  • We have lots of "weekend warriors" now foiling A's well.
  • The foiling A is significantly faster than any of the new boats on the market. Even weekend warriors are getting good speeds, while the top guys are now doing 22 knots upwind and over 30 knots downwind. Even a weekend warrior like me can do 18 knots upwind and 26 knots downwind, maybe more.
  • The A remains at the cutting edge of cat development, showing that you can achieve reasonable foiling stability without wands while achieving the highest speeds.

This is my favourite quote

Quote

Only people uneducated in dynamics can think that the longitudinal balance of a 18’ catamaran, with a center of effort of the mainsail given by a 9 m mast, then with very high leverage point, may be stable sailing out of the water relieved only by a couple of 16 cm wide foils placed under the sailing center.

Next time I am blasting along at 25-26 knots thinking how stable and well controlled the boat is, i will try not to remember that it must have been designed by people uneducated in dynamics:D

There is lots of room in the market for different types of foiling cat using different foil configurations and foil control. In the A's we also see foilers and non foilers living side by side, and it's great to see Michele coming back into the A Class family with his innovative new boat which I wish him luck with because development is at the heart of the class

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11 hours ago, A Class Sailor said:

While I have to admit this was from Lallo, it was based on the Stunt and the views expressed above were certainly being posted by Michele at the time. They really make me laugh to read them today. While it doesn't take away anything from the Stunt cats, some of the comments look stupid today.

Consider the following

  • We have lots of "weekend warriors" now foiling A's well.
  • The foiling A is significantly faster than any of the new boats on the market. Even weekend warriors are getting good speeds, while the top guys are now doing 22 knots upwind and over 30 knots downwind. Even a weekend warrior like me can do 18 knots upwind and 26 knots downwind, maybe more.
  • The A remains at the cutting edge of cat development, showing that you can achieve reasonable foiling stability without wands while achieving the highest speeds.

This is my favourite quote

Next time I am blasting along at 25-26 knots thinking how stable and well controlled the boat is, i will try not to remember that it must have been designed by people uneducated in dynamics:D

There is lots of room in the market for different types of foiling cat using different foil configurations and foil control. In the A's we also see foilers and non foilers living side by side, and it's great to see Michele coming back into the A Class family with his innovative new boat which I wish him luck with because development is at the heart of the class

It is my opinion that you guys write an exaggerated amount of falsehoods and half truths, always referring to the past. you are and have been, now as in the past, very offensive towards Bimare and S9, why ??? Are you afraid of this boat and  brand? ;). however, this is not the place to discuss about A cat, please create a new topic, so you will not make shitty figures.

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Now I’m confused ITA16. I thought you were promoting the S1A as an A Cat. 
Is it an A Cat or not? 

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1 minute ago, WetnWild said:

Now I’m confused ITA16. I thought you were promoting the S1A as an A Cat. 
Is it an A Cat or not? 

Yess. But why you guys do not write about S1A but only about Bimare and A cat foiling ? This forum its only about Stunt garage production , S9 and S1 .

strange 

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Michele, Changing the sticker on the door of the Bimare boatyard will not change anything in your production/elaboration process.

You still are the only cat builder with CFD or FEA capabilities close to zero.

When you will come with a decent project elaborated witha recognized Naval Architect, you will deserve respect. In the meantime, you are borderline Charlatan, Uor flashy colors will not change the underlying technology you have been repeating during the last 30 years.

Just like a consultant in major company, the Naval Architect, will refresh your brain with new ideas he picked up during other "contract"

His FEA skills will be of paramout importance for the reliability, security and durability of your products, but not only:

Also, he will help you to avoid "cheesy marketing lapsus" : Remember, after your A-Cat Javelin and XJ models, in 2008 you christened your new A-Cat V1, a few years later when you announced the new model, I was afraid you dared to bring a V2 on the market  just before Olympique in London, unless you wanted to create a sailing school in Peenemünde. That is why when the new boat was finally batisted V1R, well it was not that serious.

It is only with the name of your last model, the A-Cat ZERO I understood your actual project was to develop A-Cat sailing in Pearl-Harbor.:D

In your case a registred Naval Architect will have a much bigger impact (positive) than with any other cat builder.

Is STUNT the supid activity of brainless "White Trash" who burn gum with their motorbikes ?

A much bigger impact I swear

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13 minutes ago, Erwankerauzen said:

Michele, Changing the sticker on the door of the Bimare boatyard will not change anything in your production/elaboration process.

You still are the only cat builder with CFD or FEA capabilities close to zero.

When you will come with a decent project elaborated witha recognized Naval Architect, you will deserve respect. In the meantime, you are borderline Charlatan, Uor flashy colors will not change the underlying technology you have been repeating during the last 30 years.

Just like a consultant in major company, the Naval Architect, will refresh your brain with new ideas he picked up during other "contract"

His FEA skills will be of paramout importance for the reliability, security and durability of your products, but not only:

Also, he will help you to avoid "cheesy marketing lapsus" : Remember, after your A-Cat Javelin and XJ models, in 2008 you christened your new A-Cat V1, a few years later when you announced the new model, I was afraid you dared to bring a V2 on the market  just before Olympique in London, unless you wanted to create a sailing school in Peenemünde. That is why when the new boat was finally batisted V1R, well it was not that serious.

It is only with the name of your last model, the A-Cat ZERO I understood your actual project was to develop A-Cat sailing in Pearl-Harbor.:D

In your case a registred Naval Architect will have a much bigger impact (positive) than with any other cat builder.

Is STUNT the supid activity of brainless "White Trash" who burn gum with their motorbikes ?

A much bigger impact I swear

V1 , V= Valerio is my brother , 1 because  was his first creation, my name is "Michele". the S9 has been designed entirely by computer also by specialized engineers, the technology I use in the hulls is infusion epoxy of resin with a vacuum bag "not by manual impregnation as you mean". all the carbon parts are built in autoclave at 120 degrees , 6 bar pressure, it seems to me that no manufacturer in the A use autoclave building A cat , only prepreg in vacuum bag and ovens for cooking. so it is clear that you write here only to denigrate a brand, so it is clear that you guys  are afraid of this brand, you  guys are probably builders or businessmen with competing brands;)

change forum 

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I’m not a builder or a businessman afraid of your brand. In fact I welcomed your entry of the S1A to the A Cat class in an earlier post. You can silence any detractors by getting a good sailor to bring the boat to the next Worlds in Florida and dominating the AD3 Classics which have dominated the last two Worlds. 
We like to see innovation although I have my doubts about the competitiveness of the jib solution. I’m happy to be proven wrong. 

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2 hours ago, WetnWild said:

I’m not a builder or a businessman afraid of your brand. In fact I welcomed your entry of the S1A to the A Cat class in an earlier post. You can silence any detractors by getting a good sailor to bring the boat to the next Worlds in Florida and dominating the AD3 Classics which have dominated the last two Worlds. 
We like to see innovation although I have my doubts about the competitiveness of the jib solution. I’m happy to be proven wrong. 

you guys are good to writing bullshit, also good to reversing gear .

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25 minutes ago, ita 16 said:

you guys are good to writing bullshit, also good to reversing gear .

Michelle you are being wound up like a spring, back off and take the advice others are offering with good grace, you don't necessarily have to follow their fashion, you can still create very nice boats as you are and you can still sell to your followers of your fashion.

But if you want to play in the A Class world, you are going to have to come to a few big events and produce the results such is hype around the winning boat ( which just may be as much the skipper as the boat ). Sadly that's the way it is, accept the challenge and you may just do well.

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52 minutes ago, Waynemarlow said:

Michelle you are being wound up like a spring, back off and take the advice others are offering with good grace, you don't necessarily have to follow their fashion, you can still create very nice boats as you are and you can still sell to your followers of your fashion.

But if you want to play in the A Class world, you are going to have to come to a few big events and produce the results such is hype around the winning boat ( which just may be as much the skipper as the boat ). Sadly that's the way it is, accept the challenge and you may just do well.

I will accept the challenge when I get results from the tests. the S1A is a boat totally different from the actual A. it's a new born so it will be difficult to get 100% performance in a few months, I remind you guys that the current A cat has 50 years of development improved by  best sailors in the world and by best designers and sailmakers in the world.

strong work to have a fully new boat ready in 5 months , but firsts test are wery wery interesting .

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7 hours ago, ita 16 said:

you guys are good to writing bullshit, also good to reversing gear .

Maybe you are confusing my comments with those of others. I can only recall encouraging you to compete with the established A fleet. Also I try not to write bullshit. I base my comments on personal experience and verifiable results/data. 

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6 hours ago, ita 16 said:

I will accept the challenge when I get results from the tests. the S1A is a boat totally different from the actual A. it's a new born so it will be difficult to get 100% performance in a few months, I remind you guys that the current A cat has 50 years of development improved by  best sailors in the world and by best designers and sailmakers in the world.

strong work to have a fully new boat ready in 5 months , but firsts test are wery wery interesting .

Fair comment. 
so start with a less intense event like the next Euros at Cadiz. Maybe easier for you to get there as well. 

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I know nothing of all the baggage associated with the long-gone Bimare brand.

I know Michele first posted news of his new A-Cat here.

And I know the A-Cat part of this thread needs to move elsewhere.

 

Please.

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23 minutes ago, Charlie P Mayer said:

I know nothing of all the baggage associated with the long-gone Bimare brand.

I know Michele first posted news of his new A-Cat here.

And I know the A-Cat part of this thread needs to move elsewhere.

 

Please.

Agreed. How are your Stunt cats doing? Haven't heard about them in a long time. Miss getting a stream of S9 updates.

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Charlie, Martin, how confortable are you to go alone in an S9, with no support RIB, and get say 2 miles from the shore with no-one around? 

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1 hour ago, sail(plane) said:

Charlie, Martin, how confortable are you to go alone in an S9, with no support RIB, and get say 2 miles from the shore with no-one around? 

Whats your angle, reliability, speed, raising from a capsize ? My guess as good as any A Class out there.

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2 hours ago, Waynemarlow said:

Whats your angle, reliability, speed, raising from a capsize ? My guess as good as any A Class out there.

well I have the same question regarding an A-cat. I sail mostly by myself for fun. Would it be too dangerous to be alone out there with an A-cat or S9? I´m talking about probability of getting separated from the boat or unable to right it

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21 minutes ago, sail(plane) said:

well I have the same question regarding an A-cat. I sail mostly by myself for fun. Would it be too dangerous to be alone out there with an A-cat or S9? I´m talking about probability of getting separated from the boat or unable to right it

Having sailed both and others, then the same as any boat, we humans are just not in our comfort zone when we are neck high in water. As to the boats, they are fast and if you get turfed off, you are going to be some way from them. But they are light and carry little momentum, as long as you haven’t cleated off the main, they are going to be blown over almost immediately unlike an F18 or 18HT. Being light they are both extremely easy to right.

But 2 miles off shore, many do and quite safely if you are prepared to tool up with good survival equipment such as personal radios and suits. But one thing for sure, it’s not quite as safe as sitting at your desk twiddling your computer asking dumb questions.

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A friend sailed by himself in Santa Cruz, CA on the A which is open ocean.  He used a carabiner in his harness to attach himself to the loop of mainsheet / traveler just to be sure he didn't get separated from the boat.  I'm not sure that is ideal but the risk with a boat that doesn't turtle is that it can be blown downwind on its side a little faster than you can swim if you aren't quick to get back to the boat.  It can be managed, but it's a different risk than sailing a laser that turtles and stays put.

A lot of good sailors train by themselves so it can be managed, but worth thinking about how you don't get too far from the boat if it is windy.  With less breeze, there is less risk as the boats are easy to right and typically don't go too far from you before capsizing. Still, best to go out with another boat if you can.

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8 hours ago, sail(plane) said:

Charlie, Martin, how confortable are you to go alone in an S9, with no support RIB, and get say 2 miles from the shore with no-one around? 

I've only sailed the S9 a bunch of times. With that caveat out of the way -- same as with any single-handed small cat. If you'd take an a-cat, you'd take an S9. In other words -- in reasonably safe/sane waters, sure, anytime. I never have a support RIB around, but usually radio or phone, always lifejacket.

Foilers are tricky to beach-land on breakers, so keep that in mind.

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2 hours ago, Lost in Translation said:

a boat that doesn't turtle is that it can be blown downwind on its side

That is a good point. Here in Miami area our dominant wind is from the East so if you're sailing in the sea, you're against a lee shore. And it's warm. I don't know for a fact whether the S9 is designed to turtle or not. It's easy to right -- that I know.

So "same as an a-cat" is still about right. A-cats are tricky because they're usually designed to not turtle, which is dangerous as discussed.

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I have videos posted somewhere.......S9 drifts away faster than I can swim - a lot faster.

Tethering yourself to the boat adds other issues - like drowning under the nets,  but heck - that's your call.

Mast is sealed - we capsized maybe 50 times (no exaggeration) - the only time we ever saw a turtle was when a hull was seriously holed - and that happened twice.

S9 is pretty durable and the behavior is predictable - all good for surviving an offshore sail.

But

I would never attempt a surf launch with an S9.  Tried to think of a reasonable exception, but kept coming up with reasons why not.

Anybody here try an A cat surf launch?  Would like to see videos of that.  

In my experience uni-rigs and surf launches don't work well together.  

(I made many surf launches on the Texas coast with a Prindle 15 and a Hobie 17 - almost always successful, but those boats were tanks compared to an S9 or A Cat.)

(Full disclosure:  I also rolled a Hobie 14 Turbo and a Prindle 15 into little pieces in the surf - but both of those were on the way in, not out.)

I would happily take the S9 offshore if I had sailing buddies nearby - sailing or RIB.  But starting point would not be a surfy beach (is "surfy" a word?).

I don't think it would be prudent to take an S9 offshore under the conditions described above.

But again, my definition of "offshore" may not be the same as yours. 

 

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17 hours ago, capnflip said:

Down to the last S9 for sale if anyone is interested. See classified ad.

Good. So about 10 S9 around USA.

where are placed?

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Tests on S1 Acat go on quickly, data improve, improve upwind angles, improve top speeds. yesterday 12 knots wind, angle upwind 45 degrees, 18 knots top speed in downwind (excellent). S1 A seems to love medium and strong wind, accelerations are brutal, it pitches less than an A cat, it feels very safe and stable on it, this allows us to push boat to the max, tack are lightning fast. we are very satisfied and aware that we still have a lot of room for improvement. almost ready for debut at the italian championship A cat.

IMG-20200613-WA0043.jpg

IMG-20200628-WA0035.jpg

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3 hours ago, ita 16 said:

almost ready for debut at the italian championship A cat

Nice! Does it measure as an A? 

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2 minutes ago, martin 'hoff said:

Nice! Does it measure as an A? 

A cat classic. 

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10 minutes ago, maxstaylock said:

Are they straight boards?  Canted?

Straight boards little bit canted. 

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Look forward to seeing it race against competitive classic A's. Good luck with your development.

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9 hours ago, maxstaylock said:

Good luck, are you going to Hellecat in September?  Likely to be a big classic contingent.  

Thanks Maxstaylock . 

you say right, I think the A cat classic will always be the largest and ever-expanding fleet, in Italy they have all gone to classic, as well as almost all nations in europe,  and this is the right way, unlike what many want to believe.

Hellecat its  not in our roadmap, for this year we have chosen to do only 2 national races to test the boat because we still have a lot to develop, I think we are about 80-85% of the potential, and the test data are already on the levels of an A cat classic built east Europe, on the other hand we have to face 50 years of evolution at the highest levels and topgun sailors.

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Ita16 you should join some more a-cat-regattas with you interesting design!

Stats from up north:

+80% of the a-cats in Denmark are foiling

100% in Norway

Sweden stays with the marstrøms (maybe in their articles?), mostly nonfoiling

Don't know on any boats in Finland

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6 hours ago, Lars Schrøder d 13 said:

Ita16 you should join some more a-cat-regattas with you interesting design!

Stats from up north:

+80% of the a-cats in Denmark are foiling

100% in Norway

Sweden stays with the marstrøms (maybe in their articles?), mostly nonfoiling

Don't know on any boats in Finland

I have seen publications on  IACA website, concerning statistics and members' data, the classics are increasing, data from NZL, USA, Spain are missing. does anyone know number of classic and foiling members of these missing countries?

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In Italy : A cat Association its 60% classic 40% foiling , Classic association 70 classic

France : A cat association 120 members 90% classic , classic association 35 members.  

Sweden mostly classic sailor in the fleet,  ( IACA REPORT 2019)

Austria : 18 members , 9 classic 9 foiling ( IACA REPORT 2019)

UK : 40 members , 40% foiling 60% classic ( IACA REPORT 2019)

Belgio: We have between 17 and 20 members depending on the year. There are 2 ‘A’ Class specific races in Belgium - The Onecup at the Lac de l’eau d’heure (SNEH), which this year had 22 participants (and a very nice exchange programme with the guys from Strasbourg: they come to us, we go to them). The Belgian Championships tend to get a good twenty or so Classics ( IACA REPORT).

Someone know more number about missing countries?

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I don't know the real numbers here in Australia as I don't think we record the split, but I would say it is close to 50/50. One trend we are beginning to see is people having "convertible" boats so they can decide whether to go out as a foiler or classic. For some that is hard to be truly "classic legal" because most foilers now have adjustable rudders, but I think it is a great concept. It's also pretty amazing how fast classics are now going downwind and with much more safety than they used to have.

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5 hours ago, SimonN said:

I One trend we are beginning to see is people having "convertible" boats so they can decide whether to go out as a foiler or classic. For some that is hard to be truly "classic legal" because most foilers now have adjustable rudders, but I think it is a great concept. It's also pretty amazing how fast classics are now going downwind and with much more safety than they used to have.

Simon I don't see adjustable rudder rake to be an issue for a convertible. the rule is  that rudder rake adjustment is not allowed whilst racing, not that "rudders must not be capable of adjustment" Simple you can have it, just can't adjust during race. 

4. Rudder rake adjustment whilst racing is not allowed.

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9 hours ago, Rawhide said:

Simon I don't see adjustable rudder rake to be an issue for a convertible. the rule is  that rudder rake adjustment is not allowed whilst racing, not that "rudders must not be capable of adjustment" Simple you can have it, just can't adjust during race. 

4. Rudder rake adjustment whilst racing is not allowed.

Yes, the problem with that is you will loose that argument in a protest; the way this is interpreted is if it can be adjusted while sailing (i.e led to a cleat of some sort), then you are doing it and are therefore not conforming to the rules.

The other note is the foiling trunks carry quite a bit of extra water and the rudder winglets now are very large for a classic. In my head, it would have been ideal for eXploder to use a replaceable lower bearing ala Nacra 17, this giving you a few options:

1) It would allow you to swap bearings and use the standard eXploder C's, which are almost half the cost of the CZ boards.

2) It would allow someone smart to design and build a sleeve that is bonded to the bottom bearing and allows less water into the trunk.

You could swap rudders in with smaller winglets onto the cassettes, but would need to devise a way to lock the adjuster arm for classic sailing. I also think the cassettes are a bit draggier upwind than the swing down rudders.

ita, in terms of numbers you can look up the U.S events (St. Pete NOODS, Nationals etc.). We are about 50/50 at the larger regional/national events in terms of foilers/classics. Most of the competitive classics are on newer platforms (Nikita, eXploder C, DNA C, DNA F1 classic) fitted with C-boards and rudder winglets, Fiberfoam medium standard masts. That being said, older boats like the Marstrom and Flyer are still competitive in the classic fleet with straight boards or canted boards, but generally the eXploder C boards and DNA C-boards are considered the most competitive options. Also keep in mind that while Italy may not support foiling, I don't think your comment applies to the rest of Europe, specifically Poland and the U.K where their fleets are made up of mostly competitive foilers. The wind range for foiling has also come down, with 6-7kts needed downwind and 10-11kts upwind by the top sailors so the range in which a classic works is getting smaller. That being said, locally we generally race in less than 10kts of breeze and overall the classics remain faster in these conditions, which is part of the reason we have 6 or so classics and I'm the only foiler.

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you can write long posts such as encyclopedias and try as always to divert the readers , but  numbers are numbers and do not change it , and the source of infos is  IACA, unquestionable, so it is evident and above all """ true """ that currently the trend is Classic ,  and surely there is a very valid """ Why""", but this time you can't rage against me even if in the past I was on the  right.  ;););)

Take it easy. 

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10 hours ago, samc99us said:

Yes, the problem with that is you will loose that argument in a protest; the way this is interpreted is if it can be adjusted while sailing (i.e led to a cleat of some sort), then you are doing it and are therefore not conforming to the rules.

 

There is no presumption of guilt for breaking this or any other rule (other than presumption in 18.2). If protested would come down to a finding of fact based on the evidence provided to the tribunal. But not really an issue. the control lines could easily be tied off for classic regattas to head of the "he beat me therefor must be cheating" Muppets. 

 

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1 hour ago, Rawhide said:

There is no presumption of guilt for breaking this or any other rule (other than presumption in 18.2). If protested would come down to a finding of fact based on the evidence provided to the tribunal. But not really an issue. the control lines could easily be tied off for classic regattas to head of the "he beat me therefor must be cheating" Muppets. 

 

Correct Rawhide. Specific to the A Class there are many examples of where limiters are placed on equipment either visual or mechanical to ensure compliance to a measurement limit. A past example was blackbands on masts. More recent are pin limiters or rope limiters on dagger rudders to stop the winglets infringing when raised to the transom area. A current one used extensively is a rope tied through the top of centreboards to stop them going in the the case and infringing the .75 rule. 
it is a simple matter to put a limiter on a rake adjuster or differential adjuster to make a foiler rudder system classic compliant. 

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21 hours ago, Rawhide said:

Simon I don't see adjustable rudder rake to be an issue for a convertible. the rule is  that rudder rake adjustment is not allowed whilst racing, not that "rudders must not be capable of adjustment" Simple you can have it, just can't adjust during race. 

4. Rudder rake adjustment whilst racing is not allowed.

First, an apology for what might seem like hijacking a thread, although Michele started talking A'! I thought it was important as this is a global forum where the class can be viewed by many to ensure the situation is fully explained.

Sam and Rawhide are both right, and wrong! In short, there is concern that the wording of the rule is problematic and this is being considered by the International Association. There are a couple of issues. First, is "rudder rake adjustment" an act or a system? Then there is the issue of the integrity of the people sailing. If everybody had the integrity of Rawhide, there would be no issue, but I am sorry, I do not trust the whole sailing world to not use a system just because they aren't meant to while racing. Again, the issue is proving or disproving any "cheating". If one person clearly sees it happening, it is one person vs another and you cannot disqualify on that (can you trust the person reporting the "infringement"?) So do you need multiple witnesses and/or video evidence? It's a mess. WetnWild is probably on the right track - there is likely to be a requirement to prove the system cannot be adjusted during racing, but as mentioned, this is being discussed. One problem is that WS is in lock down because of Covid and the class cannot get answers out of them. I have asked for a resolution ahead of our nationals so I know what I need to police, but until then, if there are events, we will be taking people on trust.

 

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11 hours ago, ita 16 said:

you can write long posts such as encyclopedias and try as always to divert the readers , but  numbers are numbers and do not change it , and the source of infos is  IACA, unquestionable, so it is evident and above all """ true """ that currently the trend is Classic ,  and surely there is a very valid """ Why""", but this time you can't rage against me even if in the past I was on the  right.  ;););)

Take it easy. 

I am not sure what you are getting at. You posted some numbers, which by your own admission, were incomplete. Some of us have posted other numbers to supplement yours. What we know is that in some countries, foiling is more popular than classics, in some it is the other way around. It should come as no shock that currently there are more classics in existence than foilers, seeing classics have been around for 50-60 years and foilers have been around for about 5-6.

What we do know is considering the state of small boat sailing worldwide, the A's are doing pretty well. We have found a way of classics and foilers living together, providing more choice for sailors and producing great events. The rules are working and the class is working. Interest is high. At the last 2 worlds, both fleets had good turnouts, with foilers having the larger fleet, but that doesn't matter. They were both great events and were a great coming together of the A Class community, whatever type of boat was sailed.

It is also great to see Michele back involved with the class. It shows its strength, because I suspect that he would not be doing it if he didn't see potential demand. And I hope his boat is competitive, because the more builders we have offering competitive products, the better it is for the class.

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Simon, I do this job exclusively for passion not for business as you always try to make it  reader believe, if I wanted to do business 10 years ago I would have built the current A cat on foils and not the S9, I would add that if I wanted to do business I would have built a standard A cat not a totally different one like the current S1A. about  numbers of international class A: I asked above to you because you are the experts and knowledgeable about everything but only 2 answered, so I published all the numbers that  Im find on the IACA website, I did not invent anything. I add that this forum is not A cat so it would be better if you move the discussion about rudders to another forum. ps: I spoke here about A cat Classic also because for 8 years you and someothers attacked and denigrated me because I claimed that the A cat should have stay Classic, while you claimed that the A foiling would have been the future, currently the numbers show that you were wrong , so please try to be more correct and polite towards me in future. 

We compete in water not out of water

Regards

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What is it with the Italian temperament, how to make an issue when in all intents there's nothing to speak of.

Michele are you able to confirm jib size, probably hush hush until you have fully tested, but a route I have long been an advocate of. One of the real missed opportunities of the F16 class of keeping the jib as standard and just a smaller mainsail to match. Would have equalled the boats really well between 1 and 2 crew particularly now that the deck sweepers are in vogue.

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Ok, perhaps we need to move some posts to a new thread: 2020 A-Cat development (or similar)

Back on track:

4-year S9 ownership report:

(Skipper report for reference: Hobie Trifoiler, Windrider Rave, GC 32  (passenger), S9, UFO, Whisper, potful of other multihulls.  I'm not a great sailor - club hack at best, but I get a kick out of sailing anything different. )

 

S9s number 08 and 09 showed up in March of 2016 - they live on a central Texas lake with clear water and puffy, inconsistent wind.

We trained about 25 skippers on these boats - videos of our successes and failures posted upthread, warts and all.  We didn't hide anything.
 

Fun department: 

S9 is the easiest boat to sail of all the foilers I've sailed.  If you can trap on any cat, you can foil the S9 in your first 2 minutes on the boat.  20 knots is easy.  As mentioned above by SimonN - not sure anything above that would be desirable on the S9.  Or safe.

Foiling downwind or on a reach is a real hoot.  If you are sailing just for fun S9 is hard to beat.

S9 is a great training boat for anyone new to foiling.  Learning the UFO and Whisper was much easier for me because of my time on the S9.

Foiling gybes are possible.  You need good timing and good wind.

 

Not fun department:

Beach launching is a chore - same issues as other foilers.

Upwind: the wands and flaps act as brakes unless you are foiling, but bearing off to foil yields too much gauge.  After you round the corner all is good.

Light air with boat chop: boat and sails are not made for this - really slow in these conditions - might as well stay home or break out your A Cat floater.

Furling spinnaker:  I thought this would make the boat more competitive in light airs - but not so.  It looks cool while steady-state sailing, but 4-point standing rigging and extra complexity make transitions a disaster.  Useful in non-foiling conditions only.  Again - the boat was not made for this.

Cost: shipping costs alone make the boat not competitive with other options.  Same issue with anything new coming here.  Not unique to S9.

Course racing: as mentioned by others far upthread, this is not a good boat for competitive course racing against other boats.  Best in heavy air.  Small boat, small sails, narrow sweet spot.  Of course, it just might be me that sucks, not the boat. 

Class:  Not many in country - 10?   We've had maybe 3 races with an S9 class in 4 years.  SCHRS rating seems to be about right in mixed fleets.

 

Durability:

We broke many hiking sticks and trap bungees at first.  When things go south the lesson is: keep the sheet - ditch the stick!  Broke two wands getting the boat off the trailer.  Broke a metal fitting on the wand mechanism - Michele sent me a new one Fed Ex.  Good support from the builder.  No maintenance ever on the wand system.  Teleflex cables and fittings are quite understressed in this application.  Might require more attention in salt water.  Foils quite durable - no issues with flaps or fittings.

 

Pure terror department:

1) Heavy air, downwind,  on the wire, really ripping:  helm is very sensitive, you have to be very smooth or you get pitched so fast you end up on YouTube.  Getting off the wire and back on the boat without drama is not easy.  Or predictable.  Slowing down to maneuver is difficult.

2) Heavy air pre-start maneuvering with other boats around: you can't easily slow down or maneuver quickly without planning far ahead.  You learn this pretty quickly.

 

Summary:  Boat is well made, durable, and great fun.  Good support from the builder.  Good solution for a training foiler or pure recreational boat.

 

Charlie Mayer

 

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On 7/3/2020 at 8:54 PM, ita 16 said:

Simon, I do this job exclusively for passion not for business as you always try to make it  reader believe, if I wanted to do business 10 years ago I would have built the current A cat on foils and not the S9, I would add that if I wanted to do business I would have built a standard A cat not a totally different one like the current S1A. about  numbers of international class A: I asked above to you because you are the experts and knowledgeable about everything but only 2 answered, so I published all the numbers that  Im find on the IACA website, I did not invent anything. I add that this forum is not A cat so it would be better if you move the discussion about rudders to another forum. ps: I spoke here about A cat Classic also because for 8 years you and someothers attacked and denigrated me because I claimed that the A cat should have stay Classic, while you claimed that the A foiling would have been the future, currently the numbers show that you were wrong , so please try to be more correct and polite towards me in future. 

We compete in water not out of water

Regards

Michele

It's funny how you were the one who started the discussions on A's on this thread and now you are telling me I shouldn't be talking about A's on this thread. If you don't want people posting about A's on a thread about the S9, then don't post about A's and ask questions. And you have been totally wrong about the A's, so why should I do anything than point that out? The numbers do speak for themselves. You said the class would die because of foiling. It hasn't. You said people didn't want to foil A's. They clearly do, It didn't matter what happened going forward, the number of existing non foiling A's would always mean there was a future for the "classics" but the builders are still selling 10 foilers for every new classic. The foiling A has outsold all the other foiling cats by a huge margin - take the UFO out of the picture and it is a fact that the foiling A has sold more than all the others put together. Demand is still high, even with Covid. It is pretty clear to anybody that your predictions about the A Class have been spectacularly wrong and remain so.

But as you say, this thread is about the S9 and you have done a great job of bringing a fine foiler to the market. I have never said anything different.

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Simon , what the hell are you talking about, it is logical that I speak about A cat  (classic) as I started here posting the results of a new prototype of my A cat classic, but what goes through your brain. it is you who deflected the discussion on A cat foiling by talking about rules and rudders of foiling A cat .

you speak about  new boats sold because you want to use "only" this data, but it would be right  to add to the list also all the ex classic boats then converted into foiling and currently converted to classic, or new foiling boats converted into classic, or sailors who after having tried the A foiling they sold this and bought old classics, and many other options.

probably the international A cat is now having good numbers because the classics are returning to it, sailors waiting for this turnaround to return to this beautiful class "before foiling" , while some foilers are leaving.

anyway, the international A cat does not have the high numbers as when it was exclusively classic, and everyone knows this, the data that I published are IACA data therefore real and indisputable but as usual you always have to distort what I wrote to be right on me . in these cases it is better to keep quiet.

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Hi Martin , are you? Seems a good wind , but boat setup little bit nervous 

 

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55 minutes ago, ita 16 said:

Hi Martin , are you? Seems a good wind , but boat setup little bit nervous 

 

That is me alright! I don't know about the boat but I was nervous :-) - jokes aside, I think Charlie later said that the ride height control was too tight, and could be made smoother...

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September 2018: I towed a modified S9 and a UFO from Texas to Miami.  Martin purchased the UFO from me.  We sailed the UFO, Martin's Whisper, and the S9 all around Biscayne Bay.  A well-sailed Weta joined us.  We swapped boats, crews, and sailing stories for a few days.  Great food, good company, terrific experience.

First 40 seconds or so I am sailing the S9 and Martin and crew Alec are on the Whisper.  Later it's Martin on the S9 and me sailing with Alec on the Whisper.

The S9 is equipped with a bow-spreader bar to support the pole for a code Zero (not used in this video).  Furling drum is visible at the end of the spin pole.  The VIRB camera is mounted on a carbon tube taped to the end of the spin pole.  This arrangement exaggerated any camera movement.  Wand tension helps control ride height - adjusted with a bungee.  Does seem a little too tight here.  Lessening the tension smoothes the ride a bit. 

There are several more videos of that event posted somewhere upthread.  Would love to do that event again. 

 

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14 hours ago, Charlie P Mayer said:

September 2018: I towed a modified S9 and a UFO from Texas to Miami.  Martin purchased the UFO from me.  We sailed the UFO, Martin's Whisper, and the S9 all around Biscayne Bay.  A well-sailed Weta joined us.  We swapped boats, crews, and sailing stories for a few days.  Great food, good company, terrific experience.

First 40 seconds or so I am sailing the S9 and Martin and crew Alec are on the Whisper.  Later it's Martin on the S9 and me sailing with Alec on the Whisper.

The S9 is equipped with a bow-spreader bar to support the pole for a code Zero (not used in this video).  Furling drum is visible at the end of the spin pole.  The VIRB camera is mounted on a carbon tube taped to the end of the spin pole.  This arrangement exaggerated any camera movement.  Wand tension helps control ride height - adjusted with a bungee.  Does seem a little too tight here.  Lessening the tension smoothes the ride a bit. 

There are several more videos of that event posted somewhere upthread.  Would love to do that event again. 

 

Charlie , Martin , can you post here the oders moovies of this event ?

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Michele: In order of creation, I think.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pc6p181TWyk

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0q3snyPWs3I

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2zwSAkdFl5Q

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2s87C6amAnA

 

Martin has more videos.

I haven't watched these in awhile.

I look really clumsy.  Embarrassing. 

 

Nah - not really embarrassed.  All for fun.  I do laugh at myself when I watch them, though.

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4 hours ago, Charlie P Mayer said:

Michele: In order of creation, I think.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pc6p181TWyk

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0q3snyPWs3I

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2zwSAkdFl5Q

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2s87C6amAnA

 

Martin has more videos.

I haven't watched these in awhile.

I look really clumsy.  Embarrassing. 

 

Nah - not really embarrassed.  All for fun.  I do laugh at myself when I watch them, though.

Seems you take off at 6-7 Mph , 2 up. Really good . Cavitations come cause by crew position , better stay close to Front team.  How much wind on moovies? 

On 1 up mode seems you and Martin go really down (degrees) in downwind. 

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