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      Abbreviated rules   07/28/2017

      Underdawg did an excellent job of explaining the rules.  Here's the simplified version: Don't insinuate Pedo.  Warning and or timeout for a first offense.  PermaFlick for any subsequent offenses Don't out members.  See above for penalties.  Caveat:  if you have ever used your own real name or personal information here on the forums since, like, ever - it doesn't count and you are fair game. If you see spam posts, report it to the mods.  We do not hang out in every thread 24/7 If you see any of the above, report it to the mods by hitting the Report button in the offending post.   We do not take action for foul language, off-subject content, or abusive behavior unless it escalates to persistent stalking.  There may be times that we might warn someone or flick someone for something particularly egregious.  There is no standard, we will know it when we see it.  If you continually report things that do not fall into rules #1 or 2 above, you may very well get a timeout yourself for annoying the Mods with repeated whining.  Use your best judgement. Warnings, timeouts, suspensions and flicks are arbitrary and capricious.  Deal with it.  Welcome to anarchy.   If you are a newbie, there are unwritten rules to adhere to.  They will be explained to you soon enough.  
Doug Lord

14' Stunt S9 Foiling Cat

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From The Foiling Week-designed by Michele Petrucci

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No-I just think the boat is great and that this Foiling Week supplied video should be seen.

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Completely ignoring the fact that there is already a thread on the S9 with 86 contributions that was started back in August of last year.

 

http://forums.sailinganarchy.com/index.php?showtopic=167654

 

But when did Doug's insecurity ever get in the way of accepting established order?

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Completely ignoring the fact that there is already a thread on the S9 with 86 contributions that was started back in August of last year.

 

http://forums.sailinganarchy.com/index.php?showtopic=167654

 

But when did Doug's insecurity ever get in the way of accepting established order?

 

Doug hogging the bathtub at the home again? At least he gets out and sails his model boat once or twice a year - makes you look like a real layabout. Just one posed photo in how many years?

 

Hopefully they will realize you are not taking your medication again. You have to be the biggest fraud on Anarchy

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Reefer Dave... the man-child with adolescent spooge on his chin attempts to present himself as a player.

 

How very quaint.

 

So, you and dougie doing the two handed dutch rudder and you found time to type a weak entry with your shrunken personality. That's so nice.

 

.

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Doug,

 

Along with the video, it would have been be fair to mention remarks from "JOKING" who was at the foiling week and reported the S9 was incredibly slow when she was able to sail, and when she did not sail it was because she has some issues with the ultra complex double wand system.

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As I understand it the problems, such as they were, have been corrected. And I think it is ridiculous to characterize a boat with two wands, one on each hull as "ultra complex".

Wands on trimaran foilers have been around almost 20 years. Michele's system is the first with the wand pivoted ahead of the foil and I'm not convinced that's better than a midship wand but it sure seems to work well. I think he has done an outstanding job on these little boats!

 

PS-"joking" also said (back in August) that the Waszp would be out in a "couple of months"-which just goes to show that shit happens in new boat development. I'm sure that AMAC and Michele both want to ensure they have a first class product-regardless of how long that may take or what problems may surface.

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Well... I still havent sen a video of a foiling jibe, tack, mark rounding or anything else. Or a speed comparison to any other foiling boat. Any old bloke with a 20 year old moth can achieve what is shown in that video, in a 20 year old moth and spending half the money. I still think this design has not proven anything special but I do not say it wont! does anyone know what their control systems consist of? Do they still have fixed rudder angles? What about the mainfoils?

 

PS:

Oh and even if the Waszp is late to the party there already are videos showing jibing and tacking.... doesn't look super stable through them but it's a start

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Well... I still havent sen a video of a foiling jibe, tack, mark rounding or anything else. Or a speed comparison to any other foiling boat. Any old bloke with a 20 year old moth can achieve what is shown in that video, in a 20 year old moth and spending half the money. I still think this design has not proven anything special but I do not say it wont! does anyone know what their control systems consist of? Do they still have fixed rudder angles? What about the mainfoils?

 

PS:

Oh and even if the Waszp is late to the party there already are videos showing jibing and tacking.... doesn't look super stable through them but it's a start

 

ops .

https://www.facebook.com/UCPA.Bombannes/videos/848143408626060/

look at 2:40

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Well... I still havent sen a video of a foiling jibe, tack, mark rounding or anything else. Or a speed comparison to any other foiling boat. Any old bloke with a 20 year old moth can achieve what is shown in that video, in a 20 year old moth and spending half the money. I still think this design has not proven anything special but I do not say it wont! does anyone know what their control systems consist of? Do they still have fixed rudder angles? What about the mainfoils?

 

PS:

Oh and even if the Waszp is late to the party there already are videos showing jibing and tacking.... doesn't look super stable through them but it's a start

 

ops .

https://www.facebook.com/UCPA.Bombannes/videos/848143408626060/

look at 2:40

 

 

Well I wouldnt consider that a foiling manouver + it's from a reaching start

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You know other catamarans that make this maneuver?

I'd like to have some comparisons to evaluate ability S9.

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Enjoy:

 

 

 

Great video-thanks, Tom!

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I actually have only ever seen one video of a beachcat completing a foiling jibe... and it was by professionals under perfect conditions. But that's not the point... my point is that the added complexity of the system doesnt seem to lead to any improvements over any other foil configuration. Its not the fastest nor does it seem to allow you to do anything that isn't already possible on many other platforms. I think that a slow but super stable-manouverable boat would be a blast to sail. I just don't see it yet from this concept.

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I actually have only ever seen one video of a beachcat completing a foiling jibe... and it was by professionals under perfect conditions. But that's not the point... my point is that the added complexity of the system doesnt seem to lead to any improvements over any other foil configuration. Its not the fastest nor does it seem to allow you to do anything that isn't already possible on many other platforms. I think that a slow but super stable-manouverable boat would be a blast to sail. I just don't see it yet from this concept.

What range of wind-wave conditions have other platforms? What rating SCHSR? How much do they cost ? They can sail in foil mode and floating mode? (Without foils). They are easily disassembled? Everone can use these? They can be launched in water easily? They can fly upwind (what wind they need) ?? Which VMG upwind?

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Foils on sail and kite boards are fairly simple, affordable and easy to deal with in most situations. That's likely where most foiling growth will remain in the near future.

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I actually have only ever seen one video of a beachcat completing a foiling jibe... and it was by professionals under perfect conditions. But that's not the point... my point is that the added complexity of the system doesnt seem to lead to any improvements over any other foil configuration. Its not the fastest nor does it seem to allow you to do anything that isn't already possible on many other platforms. I think that a slow but super stable-manouverable boat would be a blast to sail. I just don't see it yet from this concept.

What range of wind-wave conditions have other platforms? What rating SCHSR? How much do they cost ? They can sail in foil mode and floating mode? (Without foils). They are easily disassembled? Everone can use these? They can be launched in water easily? They can fly upwind (what wind they need) ?? Which VMG upwind?

 

What is the Stunts SCHRS as a matter of interest?....as I couldn't find it on the ratings list.......

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About 1.133

An F18 is 1.000 and a single handed F16 is 1.009, a Hobie 16 with Spinny on is 1.114 which is considered faster, either this foiling thingee may just not be as fast as we think or thats one soft handicap, mmmm not too sure which way to think as on paper it should smoke all of the boats listed.

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yes, the 2 foils can independently control, their lift control systems are separate .

P.S. When I designed S9 , the concept of "speed" was in last place in my list of features of this boat, despite this the S9 have speed between 10 and 24 knots, it seems to me fast ,

all of us here know that A class on foils has 26-27 knots max speed, upwind WMG no good, no good in strong wind, no good with wave, these are the problems of all current foilers excluding Moth (this have other problems),the S9 has been designed to solve these problems but also many many many more (in particular the safety), all this has reduced slightly its speed, in fact we are designing a kit (fast and furious) to improve performance.

the last tests were done with 24 knots wind and 1.5 m waves, so very extreme conditions even for cat foilers more large,

so I think the reality described by some here is very different.

there is also who saw an S9 in Punta Ala flying without crew for about 3 km, with 16 knots wind and 1m wave, but nobody writes this.

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yes, the 2 foils can independently control, their lift control systems are separate .

P.S. When I designed S9 , the concept of "speed" was in last place in my list of features of this boat, despite this the S9 have speed between 10 and 24 knots, it seems to me fast ,

all of us here know that A class on foils has 26-27 knots max speed, upwind WMG no good, no good in strong wind, no good with wave, these are the problems of all current foilers excluding Moth (this have other problems),the S9 has been designed to solve these problems but also many many many more (in particular the safety), all this has reduced slightly its speed, in fact we are designing a kit (fast and furious) to improve performance.

the last tests were done with 24 knots wind and 1.5 m waves, so very extreme conditions even for cat foilers more large,

so I think the reality described by some here is very different.

there is also who saw an S9 in Punta Ala flying without crew for about 3 km, with 16 knots wind and 1m wave, but nobody writes this.

Is it possible to see a video comparing upwind vmg to any other boat, especiallly a new a cat. And is it possible to see a video of downwind foiling in 20 knots? Just unedited footage would be good, even if shot with a phone. maybe add a speedpuck to it?

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There are few videos in youtube channel 12piedi.

this down was done by Swiss friends, with gusty medium winds , look at 00:54,

We do not have video as a comparison with other cat, but if you look carefully you can see a really good angle to the wind by direction wave

 

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The kit fast and furious will be tested throughout the summer, probably will be available in 2017, we need a long time to get the best result but with the price contained.

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ita 16

 

Your A Class speed figures are now a bit out of date, particularly your comments about upwind VMG and strong winds

 

But as you suggest, speed is irrelevant. People do not understand that foiling is not about speed as such, but more about the sensation of literally flying over the water in near silence. For instance, i would rather sail a foiling A even if it were slower than a non foiling one, simply for the sensation. You get used to the speed pretty quickly, but the sensation never seems to go away.

 

And that is why speed is irrelevant with the Stunt S9. All that matters is whether it foils well (which it seems to do) and that it is well behaved. Then you can simply have fun. Anybody trying to knock it on the basis of speed simply doesn't understand and you shouldn't worry about them as they are not going to be your target market anyway.

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Ok!!! Past late January.

 

Anything from Houston? Or Houston, we have a problem? :-)

 

Cheers,

 

Sorry! It is one of my favorite movies :=)

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Slight delay for Customs clearance - the boats arrived at the shipping facility today in Houston, in perfect condition.

They were moved home, thanks to my friends Joe, Marvin, Nikki and Larry for their help. Long day. Some assembly tomorrow.

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Pretty cool day. We arrived at the warehouse at the very same time as the container.

 

What's in the box?

 

9pvt02.jpg

 

Unlike Se7en, we got to see. Everything was well secured and in perfect shape.

 

ic71h2.jpg

 

Bellissimo! Fit and finish are really nice.

 

sm6bv6.jpg

 

The aluminum trailers are gorgeous, too. One person could handle it pretty well with the boat installed.

 

11rccbp.jpg

 

Move 'em out, head 'em up. Let's go play in Houston rush hour traffic. Katy Freeway here we come!

 

2j3pv0k.jpg

 

 

All in all, a long but fun day. Can't wait to see it in action.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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Sweeeeeeet!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

I know we are getting an Arctic blast now, however I can't wait for a sailing report.

 

Cheers,

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They are works of art. Performance art. The potato quality of my phone pics does not do them justice.

 

I'm an hour from the lake and not getting to see the fiddly bits go together because we've got prior plans all weekend. Rats.

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Anarchists are lucky,

 

If DNA, EXploder, Nacra, Hobie Cat use to create a new thread each time they deliver a pair of boats,

 

SA forum will look like an UPS office.

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If they were boats new to the market and in this case, entirely new to this hemisphere, it wouldn't bother me a bit.

 

My apologies if I got your panties in a bunch. Just having some fun.

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Two crew? Will the wands be mounted forward like the S9? Great work, Michele-good luck!

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The S6 will probably be the best single hander, almost all of the best Whisper piccies seem to be only 1 crew, power to weight ratio would also say the 16fter is just about right for the heavy weight Uni guy. Certainly the F16 is a better boat sailed single handed but then I'm biased.

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Wayne, I think the S6 will be great as well but you're wrong about the Whisper-its designed as a doublehander and all the pictures I've seen except one show two people on the boat. The cool thing about most boats with dual independent wands is that they can sail with less weight than their designed crew weight with no problems-there's even the story of the crew falling off the S9 and the boat continuing for a couple of kilometers(or miles?) with no one on board. The S6 will be a great boat but there is no need to knock the Whisper to make that point......

 

https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=1642595389361526

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mwkdZQzDgek#t=104

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Yess Dough , that story is true, S9 fly fast and stable 3.5 km without crew, many have seen this, is passed in front of the beach that hosted the World Championship A class in Punta Ala, but no one talks about this here on SA, mah! !

However, the S6 will be designed also to compete in the F16 class without foils.

I also have a new project, S1, will be ready in October,

It is 15 feet, 2/3 sails, S9 style, but without foils, floating just for the moment, is born from a request of the British colleagues, designed exclusively for the UK market.

A lot of work and custom , many news , will be a very exciting year, and I hope that the results are very funny for holders of all series S.

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Yess Dough , that story is true, S9 fly fast and stable 3.5 km without crew, many have seen this, is passed in front of the beach that hosted the World Championship A class in Punta Ala, but no one talks about this here on SA, mah! !

 

That sounds like a great safety feature, both for the abandoned pilot and whoever the thing ploughs into. Any ideas about putting a kill switch on it?

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The link did not work.

 

Written report (not too long) and video please, pretty please :)

 

Thanks,

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Michele, is the S6 a single hander or 2 up?

In early April it will arrive a S9 even there in your land.

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Sweet. Sustained high teens with some bursts into the 20s. Kicking myself for not coming up to watch.

 

Any warning before you wiped out?

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Michele, have you tried sailing with the windward main foil raised?

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Thanks for the video's ,Charlie-especially the last one-wow!

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Michele, have you tried sailing with the windward main foil raised?

Only one time . But not fly upwind , and one foil do not support the total load . Better not do this .

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Pretty cool. Sustained speeds in the Hobie 16 range. Top speed roughly matching my sons trapped at 21mph.

 

What is the US delivered price on the S9?

What are the respective crew weights of Will and John?

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Michele, have you tried sailing with the windward main foil raised?

Only one time . But not fly upwind , and one foil do not support the total load . Better not do this .

 

 

Thanks. I was thinking that in conditions where the windward main foil is pulling down, the lee foil would have to support the whole load? The Vampire uses wands and retracts the windward foil so I was curious if you had looked into doing that......

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Michele, have you tried sailing with the windward main foil raised?

 

Only one time . But not fly upwind , and one foil do not support the total load . Better not do this .

Thanks. I was thinking that in conditions where the windward main foil is pulling down, the lee foil would have to support the whole load? The Vampire uses wands and retracts the windward foil so I was curious if you had looked into doing that......

We still have much to learn about the S9, I think we have reached only 60-70% of potentialities. this summer we will have more time to do more extensive testing, the Texan team is learning a lot very fast.

I believe that in the next two months we will have many interesting answers.

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Well, you've done a great job with this boat-I'm mighty impressed!

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Pretty cool. Sustained speeds in the Hobie 16 range. Top speed roughly matching my sons trapped at 21mph.

 

What is the US delivered price on the S9?

What are the respective crew weights of Will and John?

16500 euros . Full optional , full covers , big weels beach trolley , no shiping no tax

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Add 2,500 EUR for a 40' container which can store up to 6 assembled S9s and you get the bill.

For the US tax and custom duties ask Charlie

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Doug,

 

As you started this thread about small foiling cat, and a new one is to come soon on the market,

I would suggest you, to try to organize a comparative test, as both boats are likely to be in the same range price,

IMHO price is more relevant that lenght to compare "apple with apple"

 

What do you think ? It would make sense ?

 

http://www.nacrasailing.com/nacra-15-three-versions-one-platform/

 

Have a good week

 

Cheers

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In my opinion,the key difference between the boats is ease of sailing-where the S9 wins hands down because of its wand controlled foils where the foils can actually generate righting moment. That's impossible on the Nacra.

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The ease of foiling is an advantage for the first 2 hours sailing.

 

If the N15 can foil with 2 teenagers, she is likely to foil with an adult too

 

The versality of the Nacra is a hudge advantage, not to mention the Morelli-Melvin brain-power behind it.

 

An if somebody is looking for a training platform before to jump on A-Cat, I think this new 15 is a great machine.

 

As I suggested, the key point is to compare foiling cat on their price.

 

Nacra distribution network is also a kind of guarantee for the customer.

 

I thought it was a unique opportunity to bring fresh knowledge to the cat community, based on a fair comparison

 

Cheers

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Doug is absolutely right. Ease of sailing is the big difference. There is no doubt that the S9 looks a very easy boat to foil and as such, it will have its place in the market. However, the real question is whether ease of sailing really is a key issue. What makes the S9 so attractive at the moment is the price. If there was a small cat with A Class style foils (now being adopted by others) costing a similar amount, we would see a very interesting comparison. From everything that has been seen in trials on A's and other cats, the S9 set up will remain the easier to sail but is likely to be slower (Doug will argue that one, but I have seen the evidence). Which would be considered better? It depends on your viewpoint and I suspect there is room in the market for both.

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Yes, you are perfectly right Simon,

 

The key issue is whether the ease of sailing really is....?

 

I think the N15 is THE small cat with A-Cat style foils at almost similar price....

 

That is all the "spirit" of the comparison suggested above.

 

Cheers

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Doug is absolutely right. Ease of sailing is the big difference. There is no doubt that the S9 looks a very easy boat to foil and as such, it will have its place in the market. However, the real question is whether ease of sailing really is a key issue. What makes the S9 so attractive at the moment is the price. If there was a small cat with A Class style foils (now being adopted by others) costing a similar amount, we would see a very interesting comparison. From everything that has been seen in trials on A's and other cats, the S9 set up will remain the easier to sail but is likely to be slower (Doug will argue that one, but I have seen the evidence). Which would be considered better? It depends on your viewpoint and I suspect there is room in the market for both.

 

How about sharing the "evidence"? The idea of a fast, easy to sail foiler is a great one. The key, aside from cost, is how much wind does it take to foil? The Quant guys consider it important for their business that the 23 foils in relatively light air-5-8 knots- max to start foiling. The S9 has an automatic foil system making it possible for anyone with almost any skill level to foil right off the bat. If it also foils in lighter wind then it is a triple winner.

Michele, with an average weight person aboard, how much wind does it take to start foiling the S9?

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Doug is absolutely right. Ease of sailing is the big difference. There is no doubt that the S9 looks a very easy boat to foil and as such, it will have its place in the market. However, the real question is whether ease of sailing really is a key issue. What makes the S9 so attractive at the moment is the price. If there was a small cat with A Class style foils (now being adopted by others) costing a similar amount, we would see a very interesting comparison. From everything that has been seen in trials on A's and other cats, the S9 set up will remain the easier to sail but is likely to be slower (Doug will argue that one, but I have seen the evidence). Which would be considered better? It depends on your viewpoint and I suspect there is room in the market for both.

Not taking anything away from the Stunt at all, but wanted to share a perspective on costs here. In the US with the current exchange rates, you can get a foiling A-Class turnkey for about the cost of the Stunt. Foiling A-cats that are one year old or less with Z or JZ boards are selling for $22K or so USD. The Stunt is about $18.5K ex Italy so about $20K USD imported I would guess?

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Doug is absolutely right. Ease of sailing is the big difference. There is no doubt that the S9 looks a very easy boat to foil and as such, it will have its place in the market. However, the real question is whether ease of sailing really is a key issue. What makes the S9 so attractive at the moment is the price. If there was a small cat with A Class style foils (now being adopted by others) costing a similar amount, we would see a very interesting comparison. From everything that has been seen in trials on A's and other cats, the S9 set up will remain the easier to sail but is likely to be slower (Doug will argue that one, but I have seen the evidence). Which would be considered better? It depends on your viewpoint and I suspect there is room in the market for both.

 

How about sharing the "evidence"? The idea of a fast, easy to sail foiler is a great one. The key, aside from cost, is how much wind does it take to foil? The Quant guys consider it important for their business that the 23 foils in relatively light air-5-8 knots- max to start foiling. The S9 has an automatic foil system making it possible for anyone with almost any skill level to foil right off the bat. If it also foils in lighter wind then it is a triple winner.

Michele, with an average weight person aboard, how much wind does it take to start foiling the S9?

 

 

I found this in an interview Michele did with catsailingnews early on in the development of the S9-I imagine the boat is even better now. He mentions the windspeed required to foil upwind:

Gaining maximum speed is not the right way, on the S .9 we have a greater foil surface area, just like the Moth. This added lift slightly reduces the speed but gives us very controlled flight even in winds of 8 knots upwind and at an angle against the wind almost equal to the A Class.

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Doug stop talking about things you don´t know. An A-cat will kill the Stunt 9 around a course race in any condition. I saw that at Punta Ala live.

 

And that takes nothing away from Michele's current nr 1 recreational foiler.

So stop defendings assets of the Stunt 9 which does not need you saying is faster than an A.

You don´t have clue of what you are saying.

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What a ridiculous comment!! I quoted Michele in his interview with YOU-and neither he nor I said a damn thing about the S9 being faster than an A Cat!! He said it pointed "at an angle against the wind almost equal to an A class"! That DOES NOT mean it is faster than an A Cat only that it points almost as well. And he pointed out that it foiled upwind in 8knots of wind.

You absolutely and deliberately misquoted me!

I never made one comment in this or any other thread about the S9 being equal to or faster than any other cat!!!! The key to the S9 is not speed but is its ease of foiling for the average person and its ability , according to Michele, to foil upwind in 8 knots which is really good. This is an excellent boat that can open up foiling to new people better than almost any other production foiler.

You owe me a damn apology for your 100% FALSE accusation!!!!!

 

The quote from catsailingnews is here about 1/3rd the way down: http://www.catsailingnews.com/2014/02/stunt-9-by-michele-petrucci-optimizing.html

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What Doug highlights, without realising it, is that there are some very different criteria for designing a foiling boat, depending on the intended use and market. In particular, take 2 factors. First, look at upwind foiling. When you have a one design, it seems that upwind foiling is high on the agenda. However, if you take a development class, like the A, upwind foiling for the sake of it takes a back seat to upwind VMG. Even on boats like the Flying Phantom, when being raced, upwind foiling is the default fastest way upwind, with there needing to be the right situations to make it pay.

 

Second, we need to consider take-off speed. Again, this differs between upwind and downhill. For instance, you would struggle to get an A foiling uphill in under 12-14 knots, but downwind we are seeing foiling in 6-7 knots, earlier than most Moths. The question that nobody really knows the answer to is how important it is to get take-off speeds as low as possible. From what i can see, there is a small group of Americans who see this as important, because they sail at predominantly light wind venues. In the same way, it might be true of some who sail on European lakes or certain parts of the Med. However, for most sailors, it really isn't an issue. I would say there are as many sailors concerned about control over, say, 15 knots as there are those who are worried about foiling in 6 knots and while I am not saying these 2 factors are mutually exclusive, evidence from the A's suggest that foils designed to be all rounders give the best sailing experience.

 

A couple of other things spring to mind. For instance, sometimes, faster isn't better. It doesn't matter how relatively well behaved a boat is, sailing at, say, 25-28 knots is, for many, a real OMG moment and one they are not at all comfortable with. I suspect that for many, a foiler that "only" does 18-20 knots is actually more attractive. Another factor in the whole "ease of foiling" debate is around maintaining the systems. Only time will tell how much work will be needed to maintain 2 sets of wand powered foils and that has nothing to do with build quality. It is a simple fact that there are a lot of moving parts and salt/sand contribute to an unforgiving environment.

 

And the final question is "how easy is easy enough", or that could be "how difficult is too difficult"! For instance, 18 months ago, I thought foiling an A was too difficult for mass appeal and was concerned for the class. Now I don't think it is too difficult - if you can sail a trapeze cat you can sail a foiling A, even if the initial learning curve is fairly steep.

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What Doug highlights, without realising it(Really-are you sure?!), is that there are some very different criteria for designing a foiling boat, depending on the intended use and market. In particular, take 2 factors. First, look at upwind foiling. When you have a one design, it seems that upwind foiling is high on the agenda. However, if you take a development class, like the A, upwind foiling for the sake of it takes a back seat to upwind VMG. Even on boats like the Flying Phantom, when being raced, upwind foiling is the default fastest way upwind, with there needing to be the right situations to make it pay.

 

Second, we need to consider take-off speed. Again, this differs between upwind and downhill. For instance, you would struggle to get an A foiling uphill in under 12-14 knots, but downwind we are seeing foiling in 6-7 knots, earlier than most Moths. The question that nobody really knows the answer to is how important it is to get take-off speeds as low as possible. From what i can see, there is a small group of Americans who see this as important, because they sail at predominantly light wind venues. In the same way, it might be true of some who sail on European lakes or certain parts of the Med. However, for most sailors, it really isn't an issue. I would say there are as many sailors concerned about control over, say, 15 knots as there are those who are worried about foiling in 6 knots and while I am not saying these 2 factors are mutually exclusive, evidence from the A's suggest that foils designed to be all rounders give the best sailing experience.

A multfoiler like the S9 that foils upwind in 8 knots of wind and points almost as high as an A Class cat is a real achievement. Foiling in light air is a business decision for anyone building recreational foilers. Vast areas of the world and for sure the USA don't see much over 10k most of the time and usually significantly less. By allowing the customer the freedom to fly in light air there is no question that sales will be positively affected. Foiling in light air is simply designing a foiler whose primary purpose is not top end speed(necessarily) but is to allow the owner to foil in a much higher percentage of the wind range than most foilers are capable of now. Foiling in light air is an important marketing tool and a real advantage for any boat capable of it.

 

A couple of other things spring to mind. For instance, sometimes, faster isn't better. It doesn't matter how relatively well behaved a boat is, sailing at, say, 25-28 knots is, for many, a real OMG moment and one they are not at all comfortable with. I suspect that for many, a foiler that "only" does 18-20 knots is actually more attractive.Good point.

Another factor in the whole "ease of foiling" debate is around maintaining the systems. Only time will tell how much work will be needed to maintain 2 sets of wand powered foils and that has nothing to do with build quality. It is a simple fact that there are a lot of moving parts and salt/sand contribute to an unforgiving environment.

Many multihull wand systems have been built over the last 20 years and they have been robust simple systems. I haven't seen the S9 system up close but given the quality of the boat and the design I imagine these systems will be well built and very low maintenance.

 

And the final question is "how easy is easy enough", or that could be "how difficult is too difficult"! For instance, 18 months ago, I thought foiling an A was too difficult for mass appeal and was concerned for the class. Now I don't think it is too difficult - if you can sail a trapeze cat you can sail a foiling A, even if the initial learning curve is fairly steep.

For a recreational foiler it seems to me that "ease of sailing" means just that. And you can't have an easier foiler to sail than one with wand controlled foils: they make foiling automatic almost regardless of what the crew does.

Not only that but there is a MAJOR difference between the S9 foils and A Class or UptiP foils: the S9 foils don't just develop vertical lift they automatically develop righting moment when needed and this facility can allow a light weight person to sail with the same righting moment as a heavier person because the foils compensate 100% automatically for the difference.

The idea of making foiling easy and providing extra righting moment on-demand is something that a wand based multifoiler does extremely well-no other type of foils allow this. And it is also obvious that this boat and its foil system were designed to allow foiling in much lighter air than some other foilers-foiling upwind it 8 knots is terrific for a production foiler.

I wish Michele well with this boat-hope he sells a bunch!

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the S9 foils don't just develop vertical lift they automatically develop righting moment when needed and this facility can allow a light weight person to sail with the same righting moment as a heavier person because the foils compensate 100% automatically for the difference.

The idea of making foiling easy and providing extra righting moment on-demand is something that a wand based multifoiler does extremely well-no other type of foils allow this.

 

Did Michelle say he had rigged the foils to do that?

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Yes. Its the way wands work on multifoilers. The part of the proof is an incident in Punta Alena last year I think when the crew fell off the boat in a 16 knot wind and one meter waves and the boat kept foiling for three kilometers.

To control altitude wands need to be able to develop downforce on the windward foil and dual independent wands generate RM by causing the windward foil to pull down and the lee foil to lift more adding RM as required. And they do it 100% automatically.

 

see posts 29, 30 and 54 of this thread