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flightcrew

Club Seeks Association

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Had a great Australia Day Regatta yesterday. Big come back to snag a second after a bad start. Good Australia Dinner at club then a few rums with the boys at the Bar.

A lot of the usual light bullshit; but talk got a bit serious when the Commodore of our neighbouring sailing club, (and was our guest for the day) announced that after 65 years of sailing, his club was now about to call it a day and close up shop.

Now we are currently in dispute with our State Association over the amount of affiliation they have levied on us this year. Quite frankly we have refused to pay. Our so called negotiations with them is another story save to say have not be pleasant. Our entire fleet (and a number of boats from other clubs) had carried anarchy flags during the Australia Day Regatta as a sign of disapproval for YNSW. A bit theatrical but eh – a good way to let off some steam.

http://ffi-nsw.org/wp-content/uploads/2016/01/IMG_20160126_112019314.jpg

Back to our neighbouring Club – They had come through the same dispute with YNSW and had won – they had their affiliate levy reduced. But after three years of conflict with YNSW their club had been fatally damaged. Fleets had moved to other clubs, members had moved on or retired from sailing.

The mood had turned grim. David from YNSW had warned us that our club would be finished within two years if we quit the association. Maybe we should be taking his threats more seriously!

Then one of our old members – an ex pat yank – spoke up and cheerfully announced “problem solved boys – we’ll just make you fella’s temporary Americans as far as sailing. You do it with your soldiers I the Middle East don’t you. They operate under American generals? Stuff YNSW we join Sailing USA!!!”

Everyone laughed but then the penny dropped –“what if you could choose your yachting association in the same way as you choose the club you sail with”

So to all you legal eagles out there – Could it be possible for a Yacht Club in Australia to affiliate with a national Association in another country i.e. USA or New Zealand or UK as opposed to Yachting Australia or in our case Yachting NSW.? Opens up intriguing possibilities if State and National Associations had to compete for your membership!

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strange there are no responses to this; maybe everyone is holding their tongue.

 

I'm know many clubs have similar ill feelings towards YA and YNSW.

 

Don't worry, YA assures us that the new world order will be better. They'll use lube.

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Dunno about the above issue but YAs One Sailing proposal is simply the problem putting itself forward as the solution.

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I'd go with Aotearoa

 

That wouldn't be so bad. We already have a sizable population from there as members. (actually we thought at one stage it was a plot to steal our club by stealth, one brick at a time and take it home to the land of the long white ......)

 

Another interesting possibly that has been suggested

Is for us to succeed from Australia, Create our own Micro-state, then form our own National Association!

 

220px-Flag_grand_fenwick.gif

 

and our own Olympic Team? <_<

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The Irish Sailing Association affiliates overseas clubs as Category 3 organisations. Not sure what it will be these days but not so long ago that required the payment of a rather reasonable flat fee.

 

Going the whole hog and constituting an Irish branch of your club locally and affiliating that as a full blown Cat 1 club might be entertaining but would require a "per member" fee to be paid to the ISA.

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At least 1/2 of the clubs in the U.S. are not members of US Sailing - just sayin'.

Our association believes it is mandatory for all clubs to be affiliated.

I have no problem with this.

What I am concerned with is -

1. The structure of the association is such that we are members with no effective voting rights.

 

2. Fee's appear to be abitrary and based upon clubs ability to pay

 

3. And the association is happy to pursue punitive action against clubs who dissent.

 

They have threatened to stop us using the racing rules of sailing.

Prevent us from getting aquatic liciences from our local government to operate our club events

And generally seek to close our club down!

All for not paying what we believe is an unfaitly high membership fee.

I Have little good to say about this orga isation

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Think we all just sick of wasting time dealing with the fuckwits at the YAs about such issues.

They are a lost cause and don't seem to understand you need to deliver something when you take people's money.

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So if you aren't a member and they aren't a government entity, and they interfere with your ability to do business with local government and otherwise harrass and threaten you, wouldn't that be tortious interference, maybe even a violation of the local equivalent of the RICO Act?

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Think we all just sick of wasting time dealing with the fuckwits at the YAs about such issues.

They are a lost cause and don't seem to understand you need to deliver something when you take people's money.

Which is why half of US clubs are not affiliated with US Failing. The nonsense with the Olympic venue is disgusting at best and criminal at worst...

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At least 1/2 of the clubs in the U.S. are not members of US Sailing - just sayin'.

Our association believes it is mandatory for all clubs to be affiliated.

I have no problem with this.

What I am concerned with is -

1. The structure of the association is such that we are members with no effective voting rights.

 

2. Fee's appear to be abitrary and based upon clubs ability to pay

 

3. And the association is happy to pursue punitive action against clubs who dissent.

 

They have threatened to stop us using the racing rules of sailing.

Prevent us from getting aquatic liciences from our local government to operate our club events

And generally seek to close our club down!

All for not paying what we believe is an unfaitly high membership fee.

I Have little good to say about this orga isation

That doesn't sound like a membership fee.

 

It sounds like protection money that gets paid to thugs.

 

Your system in Australia really sucks.

 

Might be a gorgeous country in places, but I have zero interest in sailing there if that's the attitude and practice of some stupid yacht racing association.

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Just become an 'annex' of another local club which has the means to stay affiliated (ie poker machines, restaurant, et al). Reciprocal rights if need be, and if a member of the 'little' Club needs YA membership for titles, then they can get it via the 'big' club.

 

Not many clubs in NSW take members from other clubs, so it is in everyone's best interest to keep as many locations viable as possible and keep sailing the key activity at these locations.

 

If the little clubs are allowed to die - it doesn't take long for dragonboaters, paddling and fishing club takeovers to ensure the sailing never comes back there!

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If the little clubs are allowed to die - it doesn't take long for dragonboaters, paddling and fishing club takeovers to ensure the sailing never comes back there!

 

I'm pretty sure you know you're preaching to the converted;.

 

YA/YNSW seems oblivious to it, however. If they are consciously not supporting small clubs (as opposed to just ignoring through incompetence), then the organisation is doomed.

 

Inter-club affiliation may work, but small clubs need to retain their independent voice.

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That doesn't sound like a membership fee.

 

It sounds like protection money that gets paid to thugs.

 

Isn't "pay your membership fee or you don't get the benefits of membership" a common policy of every organisation in the world that charges membership fees?

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That doesn't sound like a membership fee.

 

It sounds like protection money that gets paid to thugs.

Isn't "pay your membership fee or you don't get the benefits of membership" a common policy of every organisation in the world that charges membership fees?

When was the last time you pulled your head out of your ass?

 

The issue is about voting rights for members and thug behavior by the presumed superior entity.

 

Sailing needs anarchy now more than ever if it is to simply survive. This dictatorial style that starts with the British influenced if not controlled ISAF is what has fucked up the sport.

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When was the last time you pulled your head out of your ass?

 

I was waiting for you to demonstrate how to do it. Sadly, it seems unlikely.

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When was the last time you pulled your head out of your ass?

 

I was waiting for you to demonstrate how to do it. Sadly, it seems unlikely.

 

Why don't you both?

 

It is maybe an interesting question. The power of any International or National association as it relates to the sport of sailing - at the local club level - derives from what exactly? Is it anything more than a copyright on the rules of racing and if so why/how does that come about?

 

Football, soccer, swimming, baseball all have rules. Some even more complicated than sailing's. So why can local clubs, schools, and individuals compete in various sports other than sailing without being trapped and held hostage by a local or international association?

 

To heck with being forced to join any association that does not provide value to members at all levels.

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So why can local clubs, schools, and individuals compete in various sports other than sailing without being trapped and held hostage by a local or international association?

 

For all the sports I'm familiar with in this country at least clubs do need to be federated in someway to the National association. That's the link that makes the whole disciplinary and enforcement side of things work.

 

I'm not aware of anything to stop a club organising competition under colregs if they don't value what the National/international heirarchy deliver. Correct me if I'm wrong, but ISTR the major skiff clubs in Sydney used to do exactly that back in the old days. I've seen stories of the anarchic old days involving crewmen knocked unconscious in right of way 'negotiations' when there was no RRS69 to worry about.

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So why can local clubs, schools, and individuals compete in various sports other than sailing without being trapped and held hostage by a local or international association?

For all the sports I'm familiar with in this country at least clubs do need to be federated in someway to the National association. That's the link that makes the whole disciplinary and enforcement side of things work.

 

I'm not aware of anything to stop a club organising competition under colregs if they don't value what the National/international heirarchy deliver. Correct me if I'm wrong, but ISTR the major skiff clubs in Sydney used to do exactly that back in the old days. I've seen stories of the anarchic old days involving crewmen knocked unconscious in right of way 'negotiations' when there was no RRS69 to worry about.

You mean arbitrary discipline and selective enforcement

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When was the last time you pulled your head out of your ass?

 

I was waiting for you to demonstrate how to do it. Sadly, it seems unlikely.

 

Why don't you both?

 

It is maybe an interesting question. The power of any International or National association as it relates to the sport of sailing - at the local club level - derives from what exactly? Is it anything more than a copyright on the rules of racing and if so why/how does that come about?

 

Football, soccer, swimming, baseball all have rules. Some even more complicated than sailing's. So why can local clubs, schools, and individuals compete in various sports other than sailing without being trapped and held hostage by a local or international association?

 

To heck with being forced to join any association that does not provide value to members at all levels.

 

 

I think sports people created associations to do things that they could do from with in their clubs. Like establishing a common set of rules; inter-club competitions (and international), training of specialist officials etc.

The Clubs owned these associations. And these associations derived their authority from the consent of the clubs as members.

 

But somewhere along the line the clubs lost "ownership" of the associations and the Association took ownership of the clubs!

 

Now, Associations exist by their own consent and clubs exists by the authority of the Associations.

 

For the 50% of American clubs that are not affiliated, our local association would say that you are in breech of the International Racing Rules of Sailing.

Namely Rule 46 & Rule 75.

Maybe you will be hit with these down the track!

 

I am not anti associations - I think they are a very good thing if run correctly. Clubs would get many times the benefits from a well run association to any contribution they would be required to individually make.

 

Problem is we need to get back to Associations working for clubs rather than clubs working for associations.

 

In the meantime we are looking for a solution to bypass a bad association, and it looks like there are quite a few international associations who will provide the means for us to satisfy Rules 46 & 75. for a reasonable price.

 

Maybe the answer for those who don't like YNSW is vote with your feet!!!!!

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You could try to become a local branch of Pittwater's Woody Pt YC - not YA affiliated - never will be!

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You could try to become a local branch of Pittwater's Woody Pt YC - not YA affiliated - never will be!

 

At which point

 

'RULES: Yachting Australia racing rules will apply.'

 

becomes a problem.

 

YA would become a laughing stock if they sued them for copyright infringement!

As far as I can tell several members haven't read that clause, or the rules. Same ones every week........

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fleetwood - you miss the point made above by flighcrew regarding rules 46 and 75 where the YA (RRS) specifically say organising authority must be a member of an affiliated MNA.

 

So a non-membered authority is saying 'use these rules over here which specifically state I'm not allowed to organise races'

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The problem starts at ISAF. They claim intellectual rights of the rules. They didn't write them in the first place. Vanderbilt did and he made no claim on them for control or monetization. ISAF are a bunch of assholes these days. ISAF must be destroyed.

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fleetwood - you miss the point made above by flighcrew regarding rules 46 and 75 where the YA (RRS) specifically say organising authority must be a member of an affiliated MNA.

 

So a non-membered authority is saying 'use these rules over here which specifically state I'm not allowed to organise races'

I think its more a matter of deciding to use the rules that apply to (more or less) civilised behaviour on a racecourse and ignoring those that don't. Cherry-picking has a long history!

I know my attention starts to wane after rule 36 or so..........

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Just become an 'annex' of another local club which has the means to stay affiliated (ie poker machines, restaurant, et al). Reciprocal rights if need be, and if a member of the 'little' Club needs YA membership for titles, then they can get it via the 'big' club.

 

Not many clubs in NSW take members from other clubs, so it is in everyone's best interest to keep as many locations viable as possible and keep sailing the key activity at these locations.

 

If the little clubs are allowed to die - it doesn't take long for dragonboaters, paddling and fishing club takeovers to ensure the sailing never comes back there!

Whether by intention or incompetence, I really feel that YNSW has given up on us small clubs. Or at least put us in the too hard basket.

 

Maybe it is time to let the Fishermen & Dragon Boaters & Stand-up paddle boarders move in and take over – If we cannot justify our existence as clubs. I hope not.

 

It looks like the Powers to be believe the answer is to establish regional super sailing centres and pop Opti sailors through like sausages round the track for an hour at $20.00 a go. Then send them home with a nice certificate making them fully fledged sailors!

 

How can you find a cookie cutter solution for such a rich & diverse activity as sailing?

Well guess what – Surfing has done it. They have taken a sport with most of the problems sailing has and boomed big time as an organised sport!

 

Hell, I’m involved in a design team that is planning to build a million dollar wave pool in Western Sydney so that outer suburban children can learn to surf! - Where is that vision from our sailing leaders?

 

The price of water front land is becoming so prohibitive that possibility of many new sailing clubs is out of the question.

ALL OF OUR EXISTING CLUBS ARE A SUCH A VALUABLE RESOURCE THAT WE ALL MUST ACT TO PROTECT THEM.

 

YNSW needs to stop taxing small clubs out of existence – They need to be part of the solution rather than just another problem for clubs to deal with! And above all need to be a unifying force in the sailing community rather that a divisive one.

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So the only reason to belong to the association is to be able to use the RRS? Writing your own rules would be the logical work-around. They could be based on Vanderbilt's rules - just as the current RRS are - but perhaps be a touch different from the current RRS. Retain "mast abeam" for example. It would take a long time for a single national association to get around to suing 20 or more local clubs for "copyright infringement", and the association membership would certainly balk at spending the money to do it when there are so many other priorities that need attention. Plus, what would they get for copyright infringement, if they were to win? Sony is certainly getting great results taking this same topic up with the Chinese.(Not). YNSW would end up with every sailor mad at them for wasting time and money and for putting the sport in bad light. Wait, isn't putting the sport in a bad light against the rules? Thought I'd read that somewhere about getting banned from racing for doing things like that. No? Hmmm.

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Just become an 'annex' of another local club which has the means to stay affiliated (ie poker machines, restaurant, et al). Reciprocal rights if need be, and if a member of the 'little' Club needs YA membership for titles, then they can get it via the 'big' club.

 

Not many clubs in NSW take members from other clubs, so it is in everyone's best interest to keep as many locations viable as possible and keep sailing the key activity at these locations.

 

If the little clubs are allowed to die - it doesn't take long for dragonboaters, paddling and fishing club takeovers to ensure the sailing never comes back there!

Whether by intention or incompetence, I really feel that YNSW has given up on us small clubs. Or at least put us in the too hard basket.

 

Maybe it is time to let the Fishermen & Dragon Boaters & Stand-up paddle boarders move in and take over – If we cannot justify our existence as clubs. I hope not.

 

It looks like the Powers to be believe the answer is to establish regional super sailing centres and pop Opti sailors through like sausages round the track for an hour at $20.00 a go. Then send them home with a nice certificate making them fully fledged sailors!

 

How can you find a cookie cutter solution for such a rich & diverse activity as sailing?

Well guess what – Surfing has done it. They have taken a sport with most of the problems sailing has and boomed big time as an organised sport!

 

Hell, I’m involved in a design team that is planning to build a million dollar wave pool in Western Sydney so that outer suburban children can learn to surf! - Where is that vision from our sailing leaders?

 

The price of water front land is becoming so prohibitive that possibility of many new sailing clubs is out of the question.

ALL OF OUR EXISTING CLUBS ARE A SUCH A VALUABLE RESOURCE THAT WE ALL MUST ACT TO PROTECT THEM.

 

YNSW needs to stop taxing small clubs out of existence – They need to be part of the solution rather than just another problem for clubs to deal with! And above all need to be a unifying force in the sailing community rather that a divisive one.

 

 

 

Everything you say makes complete sense.

 

Which is exactly when your small clubs are doomed.

 

Your YRA, or whatever you guys call it there (I'm in the USA, and we have a similar problem, though different in degree), is only looking out for their personal short term interest. They clearly do not see the big picture.

 

They exist because of some quasi-regulatory system. They fail to see the market eventually wins.

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Simply blaming sailing participation/growth prospects/club financial wellbeing etc on affiliation costs is nonsense. Nearly every amateur sport has it its problems and sailing is no different than any other in the crowded leisure market. It is different country by country and therefore incumbent on national leadership to start making a difference. That after all is their day job and their existence is in jepody just like everyone else.

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That after all is their day job and their existence is in jepody just like everyone else.

 

I disagree.

 

They'd probably exist quite happily clipping the government taxpayer olympic sports grants to their chosen brood of sailors.

 

EDITED:

 

Some details, 2014/15 annual report, Revenue (approx) for 2015:

  • Memberships (via state associations): $2.1M
  • Sponsorship: $1M
  • Various Australian Sporting Grants: $10.5M

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Simply blaming sailing participation/growth prospects/club financial wellbeing etc on affiliation costs is nonsense. Nearly every amateur sport has it its problems and sailing is no different than any other in the crowded leisure market. It is different country by country and therefore incumbent on national leadership to start making a difference. That after all is their day job and their existence is in jepody just like everyone else.

 

Define "national leadership". And if the sport is in decline, why would you want current "national leadership" to continue doing what they do?

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That after all is their day job and their existence is in jepody just like everyone else.

 

I disagree.

 

They'd probably exist quite happily clipping the government taxpayer olympic sports grants to their chosen brood of sailors.

 

EDITED:

 

Some details, 2014/15 annual report, Revenue (approx) for 2015:

  • Memberships (via state associations): $2.1M
  • Sponsorship: $1M
  • Various Australian Sporting Grants: $10.5M

 

 

Concerning also if you read YNSW Minutes of Annual General Meeting - IT LASTED 5 MINUTES!!!

Now that is efficiency given the items they covered.

So obviously just a rubber stamp.

http://www.foxsportspulse.com/get_file.cgi?id=3744941

 

Also given that there are 120 member clubs - only sixteen in attendance at AGM???

Seems you have to be elected as a member of the Member Advisory Committee to be able to attend - and who elects the Member Advisory Committee?

It appears to be the Member Advisory Committee.

A total close shop for small clubs!!

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Not quite true - each club is entitles to be represented by one delegate and the quorum is 10 clubs.

 

There is however a significant bias towards larger clubs through the voting formula:

 

The voting formula referred to in this Constitution is related to the total membership fees paid
by each Member Club in accordance with the following table -
Membership Fees Total Number of Votes
UP to $100 One
$101 - $200 Two
$201 - $300 Three
$301 - $400 Four
$401 - $500 Five
$501 - $600 Six and so on

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Not quite true - each club is entitles to be represented by one delegate and the quorum is 10 clubs.

 

There is however a significant bias towards larger clubs through the voting formula:

 

The voting formula referred to in this Constitution is related to the total membership fees paid
by each Member Club in accordance with the following table -
Membership Fees Total Number of Votes
UP to $100 One
$101 - $200 Two
$201 - $300 Three
$301 - $400 Four
$401 - $500 Five
$501 - $600 Six and so on

 

 

That's terrible,

Assuming the affiliation fees are based on membership numbers it may even mean that the number of votes is proportional to the number of people the club represent. I'm horrified that larger clubs with larger memberships who contribute more in fees should get more votes, it seems so undemocratic.

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the real alarming thing about that AGM (apart from the 5min duration, including treasurer's and presidents report. FFS, our club meetings last hours once per month!), is that very few clubs even bothered to vote for the board member places.

 

I count 5 dinghy, and 9 yacht clubs who bothered to vote (postal or present)

 

That's about a 20% turnout.

 

Pathetic -- we need to stop whinging and get coordinated if we want change.

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Simply blaming sailing participation/growth prospects/club financial wellbeing etc on affiliation costs is nonsense. Nearly every amateur sport has it its problems and sailing is no different than any other in the crowded leisure market. It is different country by country and therefore incumbent on national leadership to start making a difference. That after all is their day job and their existence is in jepody just like everyone else.

Define "national leadership". And if the sport is in decline, why would you want current "national leadership" to continue doing what they do?

National leadership is the national body recognised by and affliated with ISAF ie RYA, US Sailing, Yachting Australia etc etc. I have not said I want the current national leadership of any country to continue doing what they are doing. Don't give a fuck who is in the position, just whoever it is they start doing something tangible about arresting the decline in sailings popularity. While execution may be in their hands, as Duncan says the imputas for change has to be ultimately generated by the membership.

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Think we all just sick of wasting time dealing with the fuckwits at the YAs about such issues.

They are a lost cause and don't seem to understand you need to deliver something when you take people's money.

9 posts? Your getting slow down there mate!

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the real alarming thing about that AGM (apart from the 5min duration, including treasurer's and presidents report. FFS, our club meetings last hours once per month!), is that very few clubs even bothered to vote for the board member places.

 

I count 5 dinghy, and 9 yacht clubs who bothered to vote (postal or present)

 

That's about a 20% turnout.

 

Pathetic -- we need to stop whinging and get coordinated if we want change.

That's exactly what we did to over throw the 'Taliban' here in QLD a few years ago. Apathy from the clubs was the problem. Everone loved to bitch but no one even went to the meetings. Once a few of us wrote a 'report card' on QYA and circulated it to all member clubs the AGM was standing room only. The president even had a armed guard and threatened to have anyone who spoke removed. They tried to pull a swifty by not cashing cheques from clubs so they couldn't vote on the night. And then they refused to allow the vote of no confidence in the board! We all walked out and they resigned a short time later. You have no idea what they had been up to - paying themselves commissions for writing bullshit training packages they had sold to YA - it was fucking unbelievable. They even lead YA by the nose into the abyss that was YATL. That fuck up cost god knows how much. A million maybe? It has taken years for the new president to pull the clubs back into the fold and 'King Ken' has given it to YA in Queensland's sailors best interest many times. YQ are now doing a pretty good job i think with limited funding. The funding is the key now for YA. The cash for the Olympic development stuff now has a ring fence around it and it cant be used to pay for the photocopier and the coffee machine at St Lenords any more. Some good shit has come out of YA - don't get me wrong. The Tackers program (developed by Bondy originally) has been very good for junior participation but the rich get richer. The big clubs get preferential treatment in the delivery of that as well. The big stick that they can try and use is public liability insurance (now covered under a group arrangement) and a higher recourse for the RRS beyond club level. I doubt that they would go after a club for IP on the rule book! A bunch of kids can kick a soccer ball around in a park with the FA sueing them. Their biggest problem is that the YA staff go to work in a tall building wearing suits and meet with a board made up of big end of town billionaire maxi boat owners. Delusions of grander can take you a long way from the ground roots of a sport. To them WOIX at Hamilton island represents the sport, not the Saturday afternoon all-boat dinghy race on lower buttfuck creek.

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The intellectual property/copyright issue is probably a furphy. IP law generally allows exceptions for non-commercial or institutional use and 'fair dealing'. Most yacht clubs, certainly the small, struggling ones would fit that description!

The YA RRS book is freely sold to the public; buying it would, I expect,constitute a licence for the owner to use its contents.

(Maybe we have a real IP lawyer on the forum, rather than this bush lawyer.)

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LB, let's not exaggerate here - its only a 5 storey building and they don;t even have a harbour view - for Sydney that's slumming it!

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LB, let's not exaggerate here - its only a 5 storey building and they don;t even have a harbour view - for Sydney that's slumming it!

But they don't pay rent as I understand. Not just slumming it but squatting as well!

Every time I go there I am reminded of that British comedy 'the office'.

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There was a rent free courtesy of building owner, the late Bob Oatley to free up funds for last Olympics. Very generous if that arrangement is still going.

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Looks like a resolution at hand-

 

Problem

Club One has no money and is ready to cease operation. It is affiliated to YNSW and pays about 1/6 of what club 2 is being asked to pay.

Club Two has money and is not happy with being asked to pay 4 times what it feels it should being paying (after comparing with similar clubs). Soon will not be member of YNSW.

YNSW wants money. Does not want to negotiate. Does not want to give any real service in return for money.

 

Solution-

Club One & Club Two negotiate an agreement (partial club merger)

Club One gets money, Lives to fight another day.

Club Two still has to pay money but gets a tangible benefit in return. Club Two are YA members through club One Affiliation.

Club One & Two agree to work together to solve common problems (helping club One to rebuild).

YNSW would have got some money if they had negotiated with Club Two. Now get nothing for being such arseholes!

Sweet

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What;s the bet YNSW demands more money - more members in combined club = greater fee...............

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What;s the bet YNSW demands more money - more members in combined club = greater fee...............

 

The RYA in Great Britain offers memberships at a reasonable price and we looked at the possibility of members of our club joining on a needs basis subject to this membership satisfying RULE 75.

On a bit of investigation we have been advised that it does!

We approached our main class association and asked if membership of YNSW would effect our relations with them?

They have advised us that it does not - They only require membership of individuals to their class & to ISAF (rule 75)

Our clubs relationship to YA/YNSW is irrelevant to them.

Also of interest is the number of other clubs that we have been speaking with, that feel that this may be an option for them.

So I think unless YNSW starts offering real benefits for a sensible price, their days are numbered!

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flightcrew - that seems to be fine for individuals.

 

My reading of RRS 89 says that clubs need to be affiliated to their national authority to be able to be an organising authority for events, so moving to the RYA would prohibit you from running races in Oz under the RRS

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We currently have had 3 responses from overseas associations who are prepared to let us affiliate as an "overseas club".

 

2 of them have indicated quite reasonable fee's.

the third - has offered membership for free if we undertake to provide a level of service to their nationals passing through Aus!

 

 

 

flightcrew - that seems to be fine for individuals.

 

My reading of RRS 89 says that clubs need to be affiliated to their national authority to be able to be an organising authority for events, so moving to the RYA would prohibit you from running races in Oz under the RRS

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We currently have had 3 responses from overseas associations who are prepared to let us affiliate as an "overseas club".

 

2 of them have indicated quite reasonable fee's.

the third - has offered membership for free if we undertake to provide a level of service to their nationals passing through Aus!

 

 

 

flightcrew - that seems to be fine for individuals.

 

My reading of RRS 89 says that clubs need to be affiliated to their national authority to be able to be an organising authority for events, so moving to the RYA would prohibit you from running races in Oz under the RRS

 

Was the third one the Swedish women's windsurfing association? I am happy to help out when they are passing through if it was.

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We currently have had 3 responses from overseas associations who are prepared to let us affiliate as an "overseas club".

 

2 of them have indicated quite reasonable fee's.

the third - has offered membership for free if we undertake to provide a level of service to their nationals passing through Aus!

 

 

 

flightcrew - that seems to be fine for individuals.

 

My reading of RRS 89 says that clubs need to be affiliated to their national authority to be able to be an organising authority for events, so moving to the RYA would prohibit you from running races in Oz under the RRS

 

 

that's all well and good, but I don't think it helps

89.1:

  • Races shall be organized by an organizing authority, which shall be
    a) the ISAF;
    B) a member national authority of the ISAF;
    c) an affiliated club;
  • ...

    "In rule 89.1, an organization is affiliated if it is affiliated to the national authority of the venue; otherwise the organization is unaffiliated"

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it's funny but these things are coming up all over the place. The way I see it is you have a few choices:

 

  1. MTFU, stop whining and take control of your regional organization. If your regional organization isn't doing what you and a bunch of other people want, organize and take it over because chances are apathy rules and the oligarchy has no popular support but you will have to get together and work. It's the same with local government: nobody participates, small cabals run things but everyone complains if they're shit.
  2. If the sole carrot your national or regional organization has over you is that thing about the RRS then I submit that that is BS. Once you purchase a copyrighted document you can use it period. And even if you can't what are they going to do? Maybe your members won't be able to race in Regional or National regattas, well you have to determine if that's important to you. This is probably the second best option as it might completely serve your needs but it may just mean you're "trapped" in your club.
  3. The idea of joining a foreign national organization is probably doable but then you definitely won't (1) have a say in your Region/Country's sailing (2) won't be able to participate in Regional/national regattas. Do you want to have to go to Pomland to sail in a Laser national championships?

Sporting bodies at all levels are a racket with all the usual -isms (nepotism, cronyism etc) rampant but the reality is the only way to have a voice is to be involved or you just get the stick with no vaseline.

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Email received from YNSW today

 

"This email is to inform you that at its most recent meeting, the Yachting NSW Board resolved to disaffiliate xxxx xxxx Sailing Club due to its failure to pay affiliation fees which were due by 31 October. Separate correspondence has been sent to your club’s registered address and to members of your club who were registered in the YA database for the 2015/ 16 season.

 

This means that xxxx xxxx Sailing Club is no longer recognised as a Sailing Club. The club and its members no longer have access to services provided by and through Yachting NSW and Yachting Australia. This includes use of the Racing Rules of Sailing and the appeals structure, ability to compete at another club, training of Instructors and Officials, access to any courses or support services offered by YNSW or assistance with government grants or department relationships.

As a consequence of this, your YA registration (Silver Card) and the associated Personal Accident insurance is no longer valid. To rectify this, you will need to source this elsewhere which can be done by joining another Club affiliated with Yachting NSW or through YNSW Crew Club.

 

Sincerely,

 

Yachting NSW"

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Well David

You told us that if we did not fall into line, our club would be finished with-in two years!

Just shows how little you know about our club.

The founders of our club were pretty smart people - they built in protection for our club to meet greater crisis's than this by far.

Speaking to a number of YA people today who are shaking their heads, I think you have more to worry about than our little club.

I will now make you a prediction - our club will still be here and sailing in two years but you will not be with YNSW!

BTW - We are a sailing club, have been and always will be - we don't need YNSW to recognise the fact.

All we need is for you just to go away!

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This means that xxxx xxxx Sailing Club is no longer recognised as a Sailing Club. etc...

 

Well, yes, if your club doesn't value any of that stuff there's no point in being YA affiliated. If you've got the courage of your convictions you won't use RRS, but use colregs or write your own rules. You could bring mast abeam back and all that other stuff too. Might get a bit sticky legally if there was a big expensive insurance involved collision between a boat racing under your rule and one racing under RRS on another club's course, but maybe that's very unlikely. The risk of course is that members who want to compete elsewhere will get fed up with being members of two clubs. Most likely though the club will either move away from being a racing club or else sign up again after the next big turnover of club officers.

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Jim

In NSW the RRS only applies between boats in the same race not boats in different races.

So no problem.

A special rule in the Col Regs was the NSW solution to the problem that the Col Reg have been adopted as law in each of the Australian States so what ever contractual arrangements between owners and clubs are irrelevant as are the RRS.

You breach the Col Regs you breach the law with what can be criminal sanction.

The significance of the adoption of National Uniform Legislation a few years back was lost on the fuckwits at Yachting Australia (boat trailer overhang limits was another one) and when they were told about the issue immediately said it was a state issue.

The state authorities responded differently and each state had a different approach.

NSW put a special rule in the Col Regs.

In Queensland for instance the Aquatic Permit provides that the RRS can apply to an event, however the person who issues the Aquatic Permit does not have the power under the Marine Safety Legislation to suspend operation of the Col Regs. The person who do that does not issue the Permit.

So who knows until there is a major incident.

There have been several prosecutions under the Col Regs and fines imposed and the Court applied the Col Regs however as far as I can find out the application of the RRS would have produced same findings of fault. Different for start lines and mark roundings though.

Just another failure of YA as a national body.

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Jim

In NSW the RRS only applies between boats in the same race not boats in different races.

 

Why on earth do you say that?

 

Sailing races in waters in NSW are required to be covered by an Aquatic Licence (NSW Marine Safety (General) Regulation 2009 s72)

 

These Rules [iRPCAS] do not apply to vessels taking part in an aquatic activity if the aquatic licence that authorises the activity provides for a different set of rules to be applied. However, these Rules do apply if there is a risk of collision between a vessel taking part in the aquatic activity and a vessel that is not taking part in the aquatic activity. ((NSW Marine Safety (General) Regulation 2009 Schedule 2, NSW Special Rule 2)

 

Aquatic Lilcences issued to sailing clubs so provide with respect to .

 

By participating in a race conducted under the RRS each competitr and boat owner agrees to be governed by the RRS (RRS rule 3)

 

The RRS make no differentiation about applicability of the rules to boats in different races, and expressly contemplate this in rule 63.8.

 

In any case, I'm not at all sure that the NSW Domestic legislation is anywhere near sufficiently explicit to override the right to contract established in Satanita's Case, followied up by Juno v Endeavour.

 

So no problem.

A special rule in the Col Regs was the NSW solution to the problem that the Col Reg have been adopted as law in each of the Australian States so what ever contractual arrangements between owners and clubs are irrelevant as are the RRS.

You breach the Col Regs you breach the law with what can be criminal sanction.

The significance of the adoption of National Uniform Legislation a few years back was lost on the fuckwits at Yachting Australia (boat trailer overhang limits was another one) and when they were told about the issue immediately said it was a state issue.

The state authorities responded differently and each state had a different approach.

NSW put a special rule in the Col Regs.

In Queensland for instance the Aquatic Permit provides that the RRS can apply to an event, however the person who issues the Aquatic Permit does not have the power under the Marine Safety Legislation to suspend operation of the Col Regs. The person who do that does not issue the Permit.

So who knows until there is a major incident.

There have been several prosecutions under the Col Regs and fines imposed and the Court applied the Col Regs however as far as I can find out the application of the RRS would have produced same findings of fault. Different for start lines and mark roundings though.

Just another failure of YA as a national body.

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Simple, there is one aquatic permit for each event and the reference to aquatic event is a reference to the event for which the permit was issued not every aquatic activity taking place.

 

In Queensland permits are issued providing an exemption from the Col Regs only for the event for which the permit is issued and expressly says the Col Regs apply between all other vessels.

 

As to decisions you refer no contractual rights will override a domestic safety law and you could not contract out of a domestic safety law in any event.

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Here is an example of the tension between the Col Regs and the RRS in Australia at least.

 

Two boats on starboard are approaching a large fixed mark which is to rounded to port.

At the zone the windward boat is clear ahead but at the mark the leeward boat is not clear stern.

The windward boat does not allow the leeward boat room and the leeward boat collides with the windward boat and the fixed mark.

In the collision a crew member on the windward boat is hit in the head , suffers facial injuries and is left blind in one eye.

Lets say the crew member is a highly paid surgeon.

 

Who is the crew member going to sue for the economic loss? (there is proportionate liability legislation in the jurisdiction)

Does it matter that the boats are in the same race.

Does it matter that the boats are in different races.

Does it matter that the boats are racing under different aquatic permits with different clubs.

Is someone going to get prosecuted for causing grievous bodily harm ( which carries term of imprisonment in this jurisdiction)

Is Marine Safety simply going to say if the RRs applied we can't prosecute anyone?

If a master is successfully prosecuted how is the assumption of risk defence going to work?

 

The problem is that everyone focuses on the damage to the vessel not the consequence of the personal injury and it is this which demonstrates the tension best.

 

Play through all you experts.

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Why would the liability for personal injury be any different to that for boat damage? Normally even the same insurance policy, over here at least.

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Jim, it should not be, my comment was directed to the what is often a consideration of the RRS as simply a rule of a sport in isolation from it's place in a wider legal framework.

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Was not aimed at you - Sorry. Just a bit of a rant at YNSW

 

not sure if that was aimed at me.. I meant what club ? Am genuinely interested. PM me if need be.

 

We will continue to use the RRS & I think with what our club has contributed to the sailing community over the years we have every right to. We will just adapt our sailing Instructions with the required amendments.

I don't foresee a high speed rib with a flashing blue light arrest our members on the race coarse.

 

The big problems for YNSW are -

 

1/. They are running alternative methods for applying their banding scheme which assist bigger clubs in substantially reducing their affiliation fee's wilst slugging the smaller clubs. Members of other clubs are supplying us with documents that clearly show this.

 

excerpt from a supplied email

 

“The attachment outlines the “alternative” method for the application of the fees, which as I indicated to you on the phone is preferred to the primary model of fee structure, which would have cost our Club over $100,000.

This alternative method is much more appealing, however, still an increase of over $1200 from what we are currently paying.

Concern from our members still being expressed are “what are we really getting for our money, apart from the right to use the RRS?”

Also, when any skipper or boat owner involved in racing his boat would already have public liability or other boat insurance, what is the benefit of additional insurance cover through YNSW?

Is it enforceable to put responsibility of crew membership/silver cards on to the boat owner or skipper?”

 

 

 

2/. The major class associations we deal with are happy to work with us in finding workarounds for our situation. They do not want to lose boats or members from their classes and have their own issues with YNSW.

 

3/. We are getting good support from other clubs in our area who are happy to continue associating with us.

 

We would like to re affiliate with YNSW but it has to be on a fair and reasonable basis.

And when we ask "what are we getting for our money?", There has to be a better answer that "What do you expect"

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Here is an example of the tension between the Col Regs and the RRS in Australia at least.

 

Two boats on starboard are approaching a large fixed mark which is to rounded to port.

At the zone the windward boat is clear ahead but at the mark the leeward boat is not clear stern.

The windward boat does not allow the leeward boat room and the leeward boat collides with the windward boat and the fixed mark.

In the collision a crew member on the windward boat is hit in the head , suffers facial injuries and is left blind in one eye.

 

Analysis under RRS

 

At the zone, L is clear astern of W and at that time must keep clear or W (rule 12) and must give W mark-room, and continue to do so (rule 18.2( b ) and ( c )).

At the mark, L is overlapped, presumably to leeward and inside W. L is now right of way boat (rule 11) but must continue to give W mark-room, and additionally room to sail her proper course (rule 18.2( c )).

At the mark, W has no obligation of any kind to give 'room' to L.

At the mark W's proper course will be to sail close to the mark, then change course around the mark (Definitions: Mark-Room, Proper Course). Let's assume that W, bearing away, is sailing her proper course.and is sailing within the mark-room to which she is entitled.

When there is contact:

  • W has not kept clear of L and thus has broken rule 11, but is exonerated for that breach because she is entitled to mark-room and is sailing within the room and mark-room to which she is entitled in accordance with rule 21.
  • There was nothing to stop W from keeping clear and avoiding contact with L: W has not avoided contact with L when it was reasonably possible to do so. W has broken rule 14. The contact caused injury: W cannot be exonerated for this breach of rule 14.
  • L has not given W mark-room, and has thus broken rule 18.2( b ). L, by touching the mark, has also broken rule 31.
  • It was not reasonably possible for L to avoid contact with W. L has not broken rule 14.

Each boat has broken a rule for which she is not exonerated. In a protest hearing, unless the SI provide otherwise each boat would be disqualified.

 

This is where the RRS stop dead.

 

Note, it was necessary to decide whether or not the contact caused injury, but there is no requirement or mechanism to determine which boat caused the injury, or what share each boat may have had in causing the injury.

 

Analysis under IRPCAS

 

Before, and when W reached a point three boat lengths from the navigation mark, L was an overtaking vessel with respect to W and was thus required to keep out of the way of W (Rule 13)

 

L continued to be required to keep out of the way of W until she was finally past and clear (Rule 13). At the time of the collision, L was required to keep out of the way of W.

 

By shaping a course to sail between W and a nearby substantial navigation mark, it is arguable that L, from the very start is failing to comply with rule 13. Certainly as the vessels converged close ot the mark, L did not keep oout of the way of W.

 

Where one of two vessels is to keep out of the way (L) the other (W) shall keep her course and speed.(Rule 17 ( a ))

 

Arguably, a vessel's course is taken to including changes to follow her intended route or as needed for navigational requirements (See this post http://forums.sailinganarchy.com/index.php?showtopic=168880#entry5095860) so maybe W does not break Rule 17 (a).

 

However, , if that is the case, rule 17( b ) requires her to take such action as will best aid to avoid collision.

 

So, once again, under IRPCAS each boat has broken a rule.

 

Lets say the crew member is a highly paid surgeon.

 

Who is the crew member going to sue for the economic loss?

 

Either everybody or nobody.

 

(there is proportionate liability legislation in the jurisdiction)

 

Does it matter that the boats are in the same race.

Does it matter that the boats are in different races.

Does it matter that the boats are racing under different aquatic permits with different clubs.

 

There is no reason, at least under the NSW regime of Aquatic Licences that it should.

 

Conceivably it is different in Qld.

 

Is someone going to get prosecuted for causing grievous bodily harm ( which carries term of imprisonment in this jurisdiction)

 

Well, if the police could find any evidence of criminal intent they might be, but on your story so far there is no such evidence.

 

Is Marine Safety simply going to say if the RRs applied we can't prosecute anyone?

 

No, Marine Safety is going to prosecute anybody that the Minister's Media Adviser tells them to prosecute.

 

If a master is successfully prosecuted how is the assumption of risk defence going to work?

 

Assumption of risk is a defence against tort negligence. It is wholly irrelevant to anything that a master of a vessel could be 'prosecuted' for.

 

In an action for negligence, it would work in whatever way the Qld tort law reform legislation (Civil Liability Act?) allows or helps it to work.

 

The problem is that everyone focuses on the damage to the vessel not the consequence of the personal injury and it is this which demonstrates the tension best.

 

IRPCAS say nothing whatever about monetary liability for damages (which would include damages for personal injury). That is dealt with, other laws, for example, with respect to the high seas, the 'general rules of legal liability' from the Brussels Convention for the Unification of Certain Rules of Law with respect to Collisions between Vessels 1910,

 

Play through all you experts.

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I probably shouldn't post but why not? For overseas readers, we are really talking only about NSW Australia in this thread.

 

RMS (who issue Aquatic Licences in NSW) do not care whether any Aquatic Licence event involving sailing, either inshore or offshore, uses RRS or IRPCAS or made up rules - all they want is to know who is sailing, did the competitors understand their responsibilities under the Aquatic Licence, and that they can tick all their boxes.

 

The only reason in 2016 that any sailing club would want to pay YANSW or any other MYA is if their members need MYA membership to sail in other races that are subject to RRS conditions.

 

I hope to see a situation in the future that the only sailing clubs in Sydney that are affiliated with YA, World Sailing or whatever they are called this week, are those who organise state, national or world events. Local clubs that want to race around their own laid marks on Sydney Harbour do not, and have never really needed to be affiliated. A great example in the past was the eighteen footers, who because of sponsorship could not be part of YA.

 

Obviously if the club wants to use YA marks then they should pay. If the majority of their members think being affiliated adds something, then fine.

 

As far as the point about what rules apply - I have been doing pre-season briefings at a Sydney yacht club for the last 8 years or so, and each year I warn all competitors that under the local Sydney Harbour regulations, it is not proven (in a court) whether the RRS actually do apply between say a SASC yacht and a RSYS yacht racing under different Aquatic Licences. And I warn them about a contact with a non-racing yacht. So if this is true, who really cares if one club has different rules? Maybe anarchy would result?

 

Another thing could be that each club that at the moment is affiliated could decide to set up another separate club - maybe called "CLUBNAME_YA", and that club affiliates for those members that want it. The main club that organises twilights, Saturday and Sunday races can tell YA to go and take a running jump at a flying fuck.

 

Rant over.

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As a past commodore and long term member of the club in question and a supporter (in the past) of our governing body I find the current stance perplexing, to no longer recognize a club which was in existence long before Yachting NSW, seems anti our sporting goals – indeed members from this club have littered YNSW respective boards over the years, we seem to be under fire because our founders had the foresight to set up an income steam for the club separate to membership.

 

YNSW might like to explain why a certain yacht club at the north end of Sydney Harbour with the same membership, same amount of on water members (ever decreasing – another issue to which all clubs have been deafened by our governing bodies lack of effort) pay $1400 for their association whilst we are expected to pay $6000, I’m certain more anomalies will arise as we liaise with other clubs.

 

YNSW soon to be re branded One something will we are informed be moving some of their deadwood on! redefining roles etc - two positions will probably be filled by current and past members of our club! Awkward!

 

We will be meeting on this issue soon, the majority of members seem to be aligned with the "fuck them" attitude, we are not on our own (read some of the local comments above) indeed we have info that YNSW have coached other clubs in our area on how to reduce their "banding" levy's - so much for level playing field, assistance and support from YNSW will scarcely be missed as we have had none of any value in the past. As outlined money seems to go to the elite sailing groups, wages, ribs and other stuff, none that i no of to local grass roots clubs.

 

​The multitude of volunteers (note that word "volunteers") that week in week out organise sailing - yes even the ones YNSW want run do it for nothing - only for the betterment of sailing and their CLUBS surely our "governing body" should be rewarding not trying to crush such enthusiasm.

More to follow (of that you can be sure)

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In theory the one sailing change could be good to end this sort of idiocy.

Sadly it seems just as likely that idiocy will just be shared amongst all states evenly, with the good ideas left behind.

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... I find the current stance perplexing, to no longer recognize a club which was in existence long before Yachting NSW,

But isn't it the other way round: your club has chosen to withdraw by ceasing to pay affiliation fees? Or would your club continue to recognise as members people who have elected not to pay subscriptions because they thought they were unjust?

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Perhaps YA need to look at how they service or don't service club racers and social sailors rather than just the elite.

 

At various time YA and YNSW have tried to convince certain Scout groups that we should join to benefit our members. What benefit?

YA is all about racing, most Scouts don't want to race most of the time and the ones who do join an existing club.

Insurance, Scouts have our own insurance.

Training, Scout training is recognized by the outdoor industry as being very good. In some activity areas our standards are the highest in the industry. In fact you can get your VET Cert 3 or 4 Outdoor Recreation through Scouts.

 

i believe that 2 years ago YA met with Scouts at a national level, ostensibly to get greater ties between Scouting and sailing. From what I heard it was in effect an attempt just to grab members and cash.

 

Maybe it will take clubs leaving YA for them to realize that the focus on the elite sports people at the expense of the grassroots is the wrong thing to do.

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Part of the problem is finding something YA can provide that recreational sailors want. Elite sailors are easy, they want to win. There are well studied ways of improving them, they just take money.

 

My personal belief is that YA should be advocating for sailors rights more, working towards commonsense interpretations of trailer rules, lifejacket laws and that sort of thing.

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I think US Sailing is bad and then I read about the crap you guys have to endure. Sounds like a bunch of beauracratic pussies that work for YA who can't get a real job anywhere else. Best thing that could happen to the sport is if it wasn't part of the Olympics any longer. Then all these issues go away.

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Update - We are not going to re affiliate, if the CEO of the YNSW will negotiate with us in a manner that is not confrontational or take it or leave it we may reconsider! We intend to go to the YA but hold little hope of an outcome given the way YNSW have set up their constitution and the "pig headedness" that prevails.

 

So much for building and fostering sailing - still we will be sailing this weekend, you see we ARE a yacht club and that's what we do.

 

The restructure of this body may lead to a positive outcome - we hope. Stay tuned but! the bits above about documentation on coaching other clubs is true and accurate - we are yet to decide the best way to disseminate that info. STARBOARD :)

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I just call any paid YA person a cunt or a leech now days.

 

I don't seem to be treated any differently from the last 30 years when I was polite to them.

 

Although I had to call head office a few weeks ago as mysteriously I had been issued with a second YA number after joining a another new club.

 

It is a good club all run volunteers and deserves my support. (So that makes 3 affiliated clubs where I am a member)

 

Of course YA and state YA offer this club nothing really as it is a rural club in a state that does not matter.

 

But as you cannot trust YA to act in anyone's other than the staff members I could not help thinking that the second number was allocated to extort another affiliation fee with the second number just getting lost in the capitation calculation.

 

It was also strange that the membership lady had to refer the issue upstairs before I got an answer it would be fixed.

 

Of course I may be wrong about all of this.

 

But if you a member of multiple clubs you might want to check that any correspondence or emails you receive has the your original YA number on it.

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This problem seems to be the norm now in "sports administration"

Same thing happening in rugby - the national body charging the clubs, not to grow the sport at the grass roots but to benefit the elites - not the top athletes, but the top sports administrators, who are getting paid large salaries to do SFA.

Is this due to the rise of "Sports Administration" as a degreed profession?

We don't need local associations, state associations, national associations, etc. The structure are way too complex - get the structure right and any half-smart business person can run it....

Rant over.

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This is interesting in hindsight... note the author and gripes presented.

 

http://www.cyca.com.au/news/racing/2009/02/important-message-regarding-proposed-changes-to-ynsw-constitution/

 

 

the real issue, as I said above, is that 80% of YA's money comes from Olympic taxpayer funding. The ordinary sailing members contribute about 20% via club fees (with the usual level of ticket-clipping through the state associations), and it would seem are given the minimum level of support to provide some legitimacy for government taxpayer largesse.

 

I agree with fleetwood -- there's a whole industry of 'administrators' who pretty much do SFA for the average sporting participant; spending their time handling large sums of cash for the Olympic campaigns.

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But if 80% of the money comes from Government, presumably, like Lottery money here, tightly ring fenced so it can only be spent on the Olympic campaigns and very closely related, surely that means its inevitable that 80% of the expenditure/administration etc is spent on stuff for the Olympic campaigns and SFA to do with the average participant. What's more, if that weren't the case, wouldn't the taxpayer be very justified in being pissed off about it?

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But if 80% of the money comes from Government, presumably, like Lottery money here, tightly ring fenced so it can only be spent on the Olympic campaigns and very closely related, surely that means its inevitable that 80% of the expenditure/administration etc is spent on stuff for the Olympic campaigns and SFA to do with the average participant. What's more, if that weren't the case, wouldn't the taxpayer be very justified in being pissed off about it?

 

yes -- agree completely.

 

The issue, I think, is that the 20% non-olympic funds and manpower appears to be focussed (at least here) on 'olympic pathways' -- getting more sailors into the olympic (and their feeder) classes and the associated regattas, training ($) and events. This all occurs at the expense of the 95+% of sailors who are not interested in that sort of thing.

 

The 80% is used directly on the olympians - training, equipment, coaches, accommodation @ venues, etc etc, as it should be (well, debatable if that bucket of money should exist at all, but we'll leave that aside).

 

The organisation should split in two - one to represent clubs and their members and encourage sailing, the other to focus on olympic campaigns and squeezing the taxpayer. Unfortunately, that breaks the illusion that the Olympic money is doing something for the sport in general.

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The organisation should split in two - one to represent clubs and their members and encourage sailing, the other to focus on olympic campaigns and squeezing the taxpayer.

But wouldn't that risk making things far worse? At the moment I can imagine a conversation with Bill in the next office on the lines of

"Mate, if you do that it will really stuff things up for the clubs"

"Well, we gotta do something, what if we back off a bit and try this"

 

whereas if you have two separate organisations that conversation will never happen.

 

I think National Authorities are like insurance. Most of the time you want the bastards out of your hair and just let you get on with it, and grudgingly pay the premium, but every now and then you do need them and need them badly. We've had help from them when applying for grants and stuff, its damn useful being able to kick an acrimonious protest upstairs, even if its only every 5 years or something, but I'd be damned if I wanted an RYA inspector round every month telling us how to do stuff.

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The issue, I think, is that the 20% non-olympic funds and manpower appears to be focussed (at least here) on 'olympic pathways' -- getting more sailors into the olympic (and their feeder) classes and the associated regattas, training ($) and events. This all occurs at the expense of the 95+% of sailors who are not interested in that sort of thing.

And this is the issue. They have sort of separated the 2 things with the Australian sailing team but it seem that everything has been set up to support that team rather than the sport has a whole.

 

It would be great to see an honest panel discussion at the Sydney Sailboat Expo, but I'm guessing that won't happen.

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But if 80% of the money comes from Government, presumably, like Lottery money here, tightly ring fenced so it can only be spent on the Olympic campaigns and very closely related, surely that means its inevitable that 80% of the expenditure/administration etc is spent on stuff for the Olympic campaigns and SFA to do with the average participant. What's more, if that weren't the case, wouldn't the taxpayer be very justified in being pissed off about it?

 

yes -- agree completely.

 

The issue, I think, is that the 20% non-olympic funds and manpower appears to be focussed (at least here) on 'olympic pathways' -- getting more sailors into the olympic (and their feeder) classes and the associated regattas, training ($) and events. This all occurs at the expense of the 95+% of sailors who are not interested in that sort of thing.

 

The 80% is used directly on the olympians - training, equipment, coaches, accommodation @ venues, etc etc, as it should be (well, debatable if that bucket of money should exist at all, but we'll leave that aside).

 

The organisation should split in two - one to represent clubs and their members and encourage sailing, the other to focus on olympic campaigns and squeezing the taxpayer. Unfortunately, that breaks the illusion that the Olympic money is doing something for the sport in general.

 

 

Our club held its general meeting of members this week and they basically decided to tell YNSW to go and take a flying leap.

 

A few things were revealed that totally surprised me.

 

1/. We should have been "grateful" to YNSW for only charging us $6,000.00. Our original assessment had been $15,500.00 !

 

2/. Other clubs apart from us have been disaffiliated - though YNSW is not advertising this.

 

3/. The current general manager, with whom we have no confidence based upon his past conduct, is remaining manager of NSW under One Sailing.

 

It IS time for a new association to be formed genuinely representing the interests of its members.

A group of have began to contact other sailing clubs with purpose of establishing a new association to represent recreational sailing. And we have been over-welled with the response we are getting. The basic attitude is what do we have to loose! YNSW cannot threaten to take away something they don't give us anyway!

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Good on you flightcrew and your club - you will not be alone I am sure.

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Well it's been a while and despite attempts by our club to have some resolution to our problems we find ourselves still disassociated from Australian Sailing!

 

No worries we still sail each weekend, still operate as a volunteer run club and have a good time.

 

We do own a registered, insured Shark cat that meets all Roads and Maritime safety regs - another local club who are holding a regatta of considerable size were going to borrow it this weekend as they have done on many occasions in the past.

 

Their PRO received a call from Australian Sailing today telling them they can not use our boat for their regatta!!

 

WTF where do these people get off! OK I get that they have it in for us that's fine - but to throw a spanner in the works at such a late stage of a major regatta, and to be so petty about it really sucks in my book - I thought they were there to foster sailing in all areas not just the élite squads.

 

As stated communication with this body has been all one way - ours - blind Freddy can see this for what it is; a petty, vindictive act, all race officials at this other club are "pissed off" with this action as will be all the parents and competitors on the weekend when they are made aware of it - Take note Australian Sailing - I will be one of the many letting them know. Grubs.

 

 

 

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Get the other club cancel the regatta, only way and tell everyone why.

Fuckwits at Australian Sailing rely on everyone's good will to make the sport work then abuse all of the good will.

 

I hold the funny view that I should support small local clubs where I live, so I am a member of 4 clubs including two very small country clubs.

So get to send 4 lots of money to Sydney each year.

That makes me happy no end.

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What was their reasoning for not using the boat? How can they enforce it? We use non club boats all the time for big regattas

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