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GauchoGreg

Ultime / G-Class Development

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Ready to race:

Spindrift 2 (40m)

Idec Sport (31.5m)

Macif (30m)

Sodebo (31m)

Actual (Former Sodebo, 31m)

Qingdau (Former Idec, 29.7m)

 

In Development

Banque Populaire IX (31.5m, VPLP / CDK) - 2017 Launch

Gitana XVII (31-35m, Verdier / Multiplast) - 2017 Launch

 

Rumors

Lending Club

SailRocket

 

Anyway, I have been trying to find anything new on BPIX and Gitana XVII, as it has been quiet for a while, and found a vid that came out a couple weeks ago on Gitana's plans for 2016, and it has a bit on their new Ultim/G-class boat, still indicating more than 30 meters, foil development, but not much else. See below. Not much to be found for BPIV, or Lending Tree or SailRocket, for that matter (Paul has been quiet).

 

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haven't been checking out g-class stuff much, but Macif strikes me as a very polished design that has been well executed. won TGV. not sure about this, but I think they went light and simple, just not to the degree that IDEC did with that small rig during the recent jules vern.

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Didn't they make an upper waterline limit that excludes Spindrift 2 from this class?

 

From Ultime circuit, but I'm not limiting my discussion to the Ultime for this discussion as I prefer crewed racing, anyway, and we know that at least Gitana is being planned for both crewed and solo racing. It is still not sure that the Ultime will be the end-all, be-all, anyway, and I personally dislike the limits. They should just leave it open. The folks that have sailed these boats have already indicated that Spindrift is bigger than you want for single-handed sailing, and this past Jules Verne showed that the size may not be as big of an advantaged as it used to be, and that will only likely be more the case as foiling becomes a bigger factor. Might as well leave the rules more open.

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curious about these giant tris, even with C-boards (dynamic ama lift), how hard are these to send down the mine, and is that a future design priority because the boats can get sketchy in big seas?

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curious about these giant tris, even with C-boards (dynamic ama lift), how hard are these to send down the mine, and is that a future design priority because the boats can get sketchy in big seas?

 

What? Confusing post.

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seemed worthy of a nobel prize last night when I wrote it baked. was wondering if all this modern design has significantly reduced the danger of pitchpoling in rough conditions. if not, might this area be a design focus?

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yeah,maybe a peace prize :)

 

guess increased bow volume at the waterline, reduced width / length ratio has made the modern tris less likely to pitch pole compared to eg Orma 60's. Also at least on monohulls the mast has been moved aft quite a bit, not sure on multis. And generally size do matter. 100 footers need quite rough weather to pitch pole.

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seemed worthy of a nobel prize last night when I wrote it baked. was wondering if all this modern design has significantly reduced the danger of pitchpoling in rough conditions. if not, might this area be a design focus?

 

 

I have yet to hear of any situations Spindrift (BPV) has been in close to a pitchpole. Design concept on that boat was to make a big boat that was relatively conservative, very safe and dependable. It has been that. Now, if the boats can just keep from crashing into crap out on a trip around the world, it will be much better.

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According to a new Voiles & Voiliers article (http://www.voilesetvoiliers.com/course-regate/multicoques-ultime-le-point-ultime/), the new Gitana will be a 33m-long trimaran and thus not be part of the Collectif Ultim. Reason for this was given in the "Tip & Shaft" weekly newsletter (#3, of Dec 11, 2015): Gitana wanted to continue its path taken to make the big multis fly. However, they considered the collectif's ban on servo-controlled (I hope I translated "asservissement" correctly in this context…) adjustments of the appendices, including the foils, not going in the right direction. And apparently during the Collectif's annual meeting in January there was no majority of the votes in favor of changing these rules, so the Gitana Team decided to continue on its own.

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So the bottom line is that they want the foils to be controlled automatically from a central unit without human intervention...interesting... But who are they gonna race against if no one is interested to follow on their path?

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So the bottom line is that they want the foils to be controlled automatically from a central unit without human intervention...interesting... But who are they gonna race against if no one is interested to follow on their path?

the clock

 

But are you not going to need a big motor and loads of fuel to constantly move foils going round the world?

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The clock of course, but does the JV rules allow this kind of system? Maybe they should call it "the round the world race in memory of Phileas Fogg instead"

 

I guess if you have a dynamic system that is constantly calculating and changing the foil trim, then it could get complicated. The other possibility is that there are some boundary values wrt eg speed that have to be broken before the foils start moving around

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According to a new Voiles & Voiliers article (http://www.voilesetvoiliers.com/course-regate/multicoques-ultime-le-point-ultime/), the new Gitana will be a 33m-long trimaran and thus not be part of the Collectif Ultim. Reason for this was given in the "Tip & Shaft" weekly newsletter (#3, of Dec 11, 2015): Gitana wanted to continue its path taken to make the big multis fly. However, they considered the collectif's ban on servo-controlled (I hope I translated "asservissement" correctly in this context…) adjustments of the appendices, including the foils, not going in the right direction. And apparently during the Collectif's annual meeting in January there was no majority of the votes in favor of changing these rules, so the Gitana Team decided to continue on its own.

 

I'm glad to hear they told the collective to blow. Much rather have more open designs, and particularly happy to not have limits that may reduce a boat's ability to perform well with crews just so they can compete well single-handed.

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so that means a boat that has to carry a lot of fuel?

 

Or different ways to generate electricity.... hydrogenerators I guess.

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According to a new Voiles & Voiliers article (http://www.voilesetvoiliers.com/course-regate/multicoques-ultime-le-point-ultime/), the new Gitana will be a 33m-long trimaran and thus not be part of the Collectif Ultim. Reason for this was given in the "Tip & Shaft" weekly newsletter (#3, of Dec 11, 2015): Gitana wanted to continue its path taken to make the big multis fly. However, they considered the collectif's ban on servo-controlled (I hope I translated "asservissement" correctly in this context) adjustments of the appendices, including the foils, not going in the right direction. And apparently during the Collectif's annual meeting in January there was no majority of the votes in favor of changing these rules, so the Gitana Team decided to continue on its own.

I'm glad to hear they told the collective to blow. Much rather have more open designs, and particularly happy to not have limits that may reduce a boat's ability to perform well with crews just so they can compete well single-handed.

100% agree. the collective is a farce, without any transparency.

anyway, gitana team feedback was there is no way of flying and foiling an ultim without servo-controlled.

link to their experience, it seems complete good sense.

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so that means a boat that has to carry a lot of fuel?

 

Or different ways to generate electricity.... hydrogenerators I guess.

 

Seems there should be no problem generating enough power by hydrogenerators with the power these boats generate to operate servos. The boat's own kinetic energy used to charge batteries, with that energy used to manipulate servos for trim, not propulsion, would seem to be totally within the spirit of things. How would that be any different than autopilot?

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so that means a boat that has to carry a lot of fuel?

Depends on exactly what is meant by servo. I would call the Moths' wands servos, and likewise the Trifoiler's system. No motors required.

 

I don't understand the recent focus on America's Cup style L-foils. These people were forbidden from using flaps on the foils to prevent flying, then when Team New Zealand used the loophole that the forward foils could have their angle adjusted, did people start thinking this was the best way to fly? Perhaps it gives you cleaner foils with less drag, but it doesn't seem to be such a good solution for stability. Foiling multihulls have been pretty stable in pitch and altitude for decades, and the L-foils seem a step backwards in that regard. When trying to foil across an ocean, stability would seem to be a bit more important than when trying to do the same for less than an hour.

 

Also, why focus only on catamarans and trimarans? The triscaph configuration shown in this video seems to make pitchpoling nearly impossible: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s6KUmLiQWQk

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That is absolutely insane.

I know Hydroptere has been doing it for years, but that MOD just looks fucking majestic when up and flying

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I see joyon has announced he is going again for the jules verne with a slot between October and end of Jan. Still keeping the short mast but more main sail area.

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so that means a boat that has to carry a lot of fuel?

Depends on exactly what is meant by servo. I would call the Moths' wands servos, and likewise the Trifoiler's system. No motors required.

 

I don't understand the recent focus on America's Cup style L-foils. These people were forbidden from using flaps on the foils to prevent flying, then when Team New Zealand used the loophole that the forward foils could have their angle adjusted, did people start thinking this was the best way to fly? Perhaps it gives you cleaner foils with less drag, but it doesn't seem to be such a good solution for stability. Foiling multihulls have been pretty stable in pitch and altitude for decades, and the L-foils seem a step backwards in that regard. When trying to foil across an ocean, stability would seem to be a bit more important than when trying to do the same for less than an hour.

 

Also, why focus only on catamarans and trimarans? The triscaph configuration shown in this video seems to make pitchpoling nearly impossible: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s6KUmLiQWQk

 

 

The designers of the TNZ type foil call it an "uptip"(UptiP) foil and it is a breakthru in single foil design because it automatically maintains altitude for any given condition. If the condition changes, the rake and/or the cant of the foil can be slightly adjusted. It's the first single foil in history that can control altitude for the whole boat without requiring two main foils in the water. Their stability can be excellent.

The only foil system being tested now(that I know about) that might be better but ,perhaps, not practical on a large boat is the Vampire system with a single wand controlled main foil on the lee side canted 20 degrees outboard.

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I see joyon has announced he is going again for the jules verne with a slot between October and end of Jan. Still keeping the short mast but more main sail area.

This is awesome news.... Go Idec Go!!!!!!

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The designers of the TNZ type foil call it an "uptip"(UptiP) foil and it is a breakthru in single foil design because it automatically maintains altitude for any given condition. If the condition changes, the rake and/or the cant of the foil can be slightly adjusted. It's the first single foil in history that can control altitude for the whole boat without requiring two main foils in the water. Their stability can be excellent.

 

 

Icarus maintained altitude in any given condition 40 years ago. And it is possible to sail on a single inclined foil. You can find pictures of several different boats with simple inclined foils doing just that here: https://sites.google.com/site/f18foiler/

 

> The only foil system being tested now(that I know about) that might be better but ,perhaps, not practical on a large boat is the Vampire system with a single wand controlled main foil on the lee side canted 20 degrees outboard.

And the man developing this system comments on poor altitude control of the bent foils. Further, Bradfield flew a 12 metre trimaran using such a system, so it certainly scales up beyond beach cat size.
What interests me most, and what you didn't comment on is why use a catamaran (or trimaran) platform, which severely limits pitch control by limiting the distance between the foils. The only exception I have seen is the Trifoiler. I have never found any report of the Trifoiler or a triscaph like Loisirs 3000 coming off the foils and diving like those catamarans. You chose the trimaran platform, with the foils separated by only about half the boat length. What was your reasoning behind that choice?

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A surface piercing foiler(like Icaurus, Hydroptere, Spitfire etc) can only sail a short distance on a single main foil*, whereas a foiler using uptip foils can sail all day on a single main foil. What I use and Bradfield** used is designing the main foils to support about 80% of the total load-that pretty much dictates mainfoil position(relative to the rudder foil).This position gives excellent pitch control authority to the rudder T-foil. With the mainfoil located like that pitchpole is very rare though it can still happen , particularly if a foiler is caught gybing off the foils in a lot of wind and/or because a main foil ventilates. But ,generally speaking , that position makes pitchpole rare. The cool thing about Gitana in this last video is that she was flying -mostly- on just two foils with the daggerboard, main rudder and windward rudder in the water off and on. The last Gitana video showed the boat foiling a lot of the time in rougher conditions and in those conditions the main hull would touch down frequently.

* When a surface piercing foiler with a single rudder foil heels enough to fly the windward foil ,it is rotating about a diagonal axis that causes the lee foil to increase its angle of attack(causing the boat to pitch up) and can lead to that foil stalling and a crash.

**Bradfields Rave, Osprey and SKAT were all oversquare platforms with the main foil located as I described above. The Osprey ,in particular, at 18'LOA and 22' wide is very pitchpole resistant and almost impossible to capsize.

 

Osprey:

post-30-0-95901400-1460478300_thumb.jpg

post-30-0-18606700-1460479139_thumb.jpg

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The designers of the TNZ type foil call it an "uptip"(UptiP) foil

 

 

 

UGH... if ENTZ created it, call it and spell it uptip, why do you insist on spelling it UptiP???? Is this your way of gaining some intellectual property or ownership of it? If its tip is the only up part, shouldn't it be upTIP instead?

 

Regardless, it'll be interesting to see this flying beast in some large swell at speed. I suspect there will be many with high/redline pucker factors on board! Will there be airbags on the bulkheads??

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I hope IDEC kills it, and there's no reason they can't.

If there is one person on planet Earth I want to see win the JV it's Joyon- I think he can too

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The designers of the TNZ type foil call it an "uptip"(UptiP) foil

 

 

 

UGH... if ENTZ created it, call it and spell it uptip, why do you insist on spelling it UptiP???? Is this your way of gaining some intellectual property or ownership of it? If its tip is the only up part, shouldn't it be upTIP instead?

 

Regardless, it'll be interesting to see this flying beast in some large swell at speed. I suspect there will be many with high/redline pucker factors on board! Will there be airbags on the bulkheads??

 

 

Notice in the video the guys saying how smooth it was when up on the foils. It will be interesting to see how foiling of an offshore boat relates to more or less breakages. While regularly foiling, the boat should be sustaining less impacts and providing the crew a more gentle and relaxing ride (assuming it can be done without a tremendous amount of constant crew work in trimming). Obviously, falling off the foils can provide some substantial impacts. Then, the consideration of impacts with semi-submerged objects.... Is it much worse to smash into an object with the foil while foiling? Could boats take a set of spare foils, and could one be replaced by the crew en-route during a race, without assistance?

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From the Gitana website:

 

.....

The third and final phase must enable Gitana Team to take the project to another level and live up to the expectations of the original project. To achieve this, the members of the technical team have to make structural modifications to the platform, particularly around the foil casing. These will be the main focus of the winter refit. Meantime, new foils with profiles more geared towards flight are built. On 22 March, Gitana XV puts in her first tacks as the 2016 iteration: the sensations are excellent as are the speeds! With many miles in flight making between 35 and 40 knots, the boat racking up a record 43 knots in 20 knots of breeze and the shared sentiment that they have a lot more to discover The first part of the gamble has paid off: the Multi70 Edmond de Rothschild has just taken flight!

Theory is one thing, putting it into practice is another. Despite the calibre of the project's contributors and the ground we've covered in terms of digital calculation, nothing replaces miles on the water. Being in a position to benefit from a platform like Gitana XV throughout this period of reflection, followed by the construction of the future Maxi, is an incredible opportunity, which we've been able to make full use of.

Dedicated to flight, this second test campaign has proven to be more than positive! The sea trials we're carrying out right now are just incredible, so much so that I never thought I'd see the day With our new appendages, we've exceeded speeds we hadn't expected to reach in this configuration, or at least not as quickly! Speed is a very important thing, but on top of that these latest sea trials have also taught us a great deal about how the boat handles, which is clearly very different to our understanding thus far. The boat no longer floats, she flies along on two blades We've passed a very important milestone. We've also learned very interesting lessons about what steps to avoid in the future in terms of both our architectural choices and the on-board systems. As such, the design office has a significant amount of data with which to continue its research. The work never stops and the sea state is still something we need to make progress with! explains Sébastien Josse

However, the incredible sensation of flight on such a machine, as pleasant as it is to be powered up at over 40 knots, is not Gitana Team's only objective of course. Following the announcement made in May 2015, the five-arrow team also began construction of a maxi-multihull at the Multiplast yard in Vannes, south-west Brittany back in November. This craft, the twelfth in the history of Gitana Team, will reap the full benefit of the trials carried out on the Multi70 Edmond de Rothschild from 2014 to 2016.

....

 

http://www.gitana-team.com/en/a-1164/flying-offshore-the-gitana-team-s-first-gamble-pays-off

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sebastien josse skipper of gitana XV has determine they target to fly in this window only, 15 to 25 knots of wind and 2 m swell maximun on ocean ride. it limit risk of big crash and srtucture damaged.

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sebastien josse skipper of gitana XV has determine they target to fly in this window only, 15 to 25 knots of wind and 2 m swell maximun on ocean ride. it limit risk of big crash and srtucture damaged.

 

Makes sense. A BEAST in the tradewinds and South Atlantic, as well as windows of opportunity in the Southern Ocean. Also will be well-suited to a Transat record at the upper end of that wind range.

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I still hate that resources were poured into Macif & Banque Populaire's Ultime class boats, with the artificial restraints of the class, rather than just going to whatever they believed was naturally to be the best for performance. Will those boats be obsolete the minute the new Gitana boat hits the water? I can't wait to see that boat.

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believe the ultim class boat can collapse or become a "farce", not sure now, but probability is high. it will not be a big deal then macif and banque pop had L foil to their actual 105 foot trimaran project

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believe the ultim class boat can collapse or become a "farce", not sure now, but probability is high. it will not be a big deal then macif and banque pop had L foil to their actual 105 foot trimaran project

 

But from what Gitana has said, in order to secure the ultimate performance of their boat, they needed to go longer than the Ultim class. If they are correct in that assessment (seems reasonable), then the Macif & BP efforts will start off as compromised outside of their class. As I have been saying for a LONG time, the beauty of the French offshore racing in the G-Class is that it was everything goes. It was stupid for them to try and go away from that in the Ultim.

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A surface piercing foiler(like Icaurus, Hydroptere, Spitfire etc) can only sail a short distance on a single main foil*,

* When a surface piercing foiler with a single rudder foil heels enough to fly the windward foil ,it is rotating about a diagonal axis that causes the lee foil to increase its angle of attack(causing the boat to pitch up) and can lead to that foil stalling and a crash.

 

By your own account, that is a consequence of the rudder being to windward of the forward foil. The L-foil would behave exactly the same. Put rudder and forward foil in line, and I see no reason why the straight inclined foil should be any less stable than the L-foil.

whereas a foiler using uptip foils can sail all day on a single main foil.

Is there any theoretical reason why it should be better than either an inclined foil or a wand-controlled system, or any empirical evidence? I mean, look at TNZ crashing (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wpBkJp4cwrI) or these smaller cats (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K3Pn1MoQmyY). At around 0:59, 2.00 and 2.12 you see instability in pitch and corresponding instability in heave.

 

What I use and Bradfield** used is designing the main foils to support about 80% of the total load-that pretty much dictates mainfoil position(relative to the rudder foil).This position gives excellent pitch control authority to the rudder T-foil. With the mainfoil located like that pitchpole is very rare though it can still happen , particularly if a foiler is caught gybing off the foils in a lot of wind and/or because a main foil ventilates. But ,generally speaking , that position makes pitchpole rare.

Is it fair to say that you argue this configuration is good enough? If so, what is your opinion on the relative merits of that configuration compared to that of lIOSIERS 3000, as shown here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dVHp2YjymRg&ebc=ANyPxKpP2wQy7EGKNLLSNg6SPwIikx5Q4wTFZcvTvO7Aku_ChHtXx0VyEL0N4ZEQOin7CsJr6TH22JaidEwiFHG4IDOr9-3FOQ. For a given weight and sail area, the load-bearing foils and the pitch-controlling forward hull are about two to three times as far apart as foils and hull-end rudders on a catamaran. I would expect that greater spacing to provide better pitch control, and what I see in the video is consistent with that. Heave seems more stable even with fixed foils, and even more so with wand-controlled foils. The same applies to the trifoiler. So what is the reason why you prefer the configuration you use? I am not asking whether you think that what you use is good enough, I am asking whether you think it's better than the alternatives I mentioned.

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A surface piercing foiler(like Icaurus, Hydroptere, Spitfire etc) can only sail a short distance on a single main foil*,

* When a surface piercing foiler with a single rudder foil heels enough to fly the windward foil ,it is rotating about a diagonal axis that causes the lee foil to increase its angle of attack(causing the boat to pitch up) and can lead to that foil stalling and a crash.

 

By your own account, that is a consequence of the rudder being to windward of the forward foil. The L-foil would behave exactly the same. If there are dual main foils and a single center rudder T-foil there would still be a diagonal roll axis. Put rudder and forward foil in line, and I see no reason why the straight inclined foil should be any less stable than the L-foil.

whereas a foiler using uptip foils can sail all day on a single main foil. The case then is that an inclined foil has a lift vector to windward not vertically and would probably be unstable in yaw. But Steve Clark devised a foil system using a single surface piercing foil to leeward(pointing to windward) w/o the excess angle of a "normal" surface piercer like Hydroptere. It worked well as far as I know with dual rudder T-foils.

Is there any theoretical reason why it should be better than either an inclined foil or a wand-controlled system, or any empirical evidence? I mean, look at TNZ crashing (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wpBkJp4cwrI) or these smaller cats (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K3Pn1MoQmyY). At around 0:59, 2.00 and 2.12 you see instability in pitch and corresponding instability in heave. Not sure what "it" is......

 

What I use and Bradfield** used is designing the main foils to support about 80% of the total load-that pretty much dictates mainfoil position(relative to the rudder foil).This position gives excellent pitch control authority to the rudder T-foil. With the mainfoil located like that pitchpole is very rare though it can still happen , particularly if a foiler is caught gybing off the foils in a lot of wind and/or because a main foil ventilates. But ,generally speaking , that position makes pitchpole rare.

Is it fair to say that you argue this configuration is good enough? If so, what is your opinion on the relative merits of that configuration compared to that of lIOSIERS 3000, as shown here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dVHp2YjymRg&ebc=ANyPxKpP2wQy7EGKNLLSNg6SPwIikx5Q4wTFZcvTvO7Aku_ChHtXx0VyEL0N4ZEQOin7CsJr6TH22JaidEwiFHG4IDOr9-3FOQ. For a given weight and sail area, the load-bearing foils and the pitch-controlling forward hull are about two to three times as far apart as foils and hull-end rudders on a catamaran. I would expect that greater spacing to provide better pitch control, and what I see in the video is consistent with that. Heave seems more stable even with fixed foils, and even more so with wand-controlled foils. The same applies to the trifoiler. So what is the reason why you prefer the configuration you use? I am not asking whether you think that what you use is good enough, I am asking whether you think it's better than the alternatives I mentioned.

When you go to greater spacing you increase the loading on the aft foil and decrease it on the forward foil. Boats like C-Fly have a canard configuration with a more heavily loaded aft foil and lightly loaded forward foil. Seems to work ok

The "normal" airplane configuration works real well and allows for a trailing rudder t-foil that can be sailed on some boats w/o any active rake adjustment. Such a trailing foil starts off with vertical lift and automatically develops downforce at a certain speed. So far I think it is the best type of foil system. The system is very reliable and when set up with either an UptiP main foil or single or dual wand controlled foils it is very fast.

I think that there is a lot of potential for foil configuration development as well as foil type development. Hugh Welbourns Quant 23 is a breakthru design, in my opinion, as well as being the first foiling keelboat in history.

I think my Fire Arrow is the same for trimarans because it has a foil configuration on an oversquare tri that can take off in light air and develop extra RM in stronger wind-automatically.

But there is a lot of innovation floating around and these are particularly exciting times for hydrofoil design and development.

 

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I feel sorry for you WetSnail, you´ve been highlighted in red !!! Sorry, it's our fault, you're realatively new and we gave you no warning

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A pure sailing hydrofoil should look nothing at all like a non-foiling boat. All the problems are different, a LOT different, and so the solution should be different, a LOT different.

 

Hydrofoils need to be actively controlled by a computer, not a mechanical system. Not an analog system either, as the control laws change continuously. Hence, they must be controlled by a digital system (or a quantum system some day).

 

The cheater foils used for the AC boats and now so widely copied are just silly. Like using a spinnaker pole or overlapping headsails or heads on sails that are pointy. Silly. Just silly.

 

The cost of the fully active digital control system for a copter drone is about the same as a winch handle, a small fraction of a carbon spinnaker pole or a winch.

 

The cost of actuators, even high speed and high power actuators, is very low, like $30 to $80 each. They are used pervasively in manufacturing, built for corrosive environments that make the marine environment seem very tame. Such actuators are cheap and very reliable: the assembly lines that depend on them generate a lot of money when running, and none when down, so reliability has always been key in this industry.

 

So any L foils, C foils, surface piercing foils, wand controlled foils, are all just silly. An expensive waste of time, compared to doing it the right way.

 

If fully foiling with digital controlled automatic ride control, the size of the boat barely matters, so I don't understand this 30 meter BS.

 

What boats beat foiling kite surfers?

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Carcrash,

 

While I agree with you regarding the actuator and automatic ride control, I tend to disagree with your reference to foiling kite surfers.

 

Following closely foiling windsurfers development v/s foiling kite surfers, I , may be wrongly, tend to believe that those are not foiling crafts, I see those as a dynamic parachute with an apparatus set as a combination of a link to the water and an antidrifting plate; when a boat's foil has to provide the upward and "flying" force, their is provided by the kite.

Of course I maybe wrong in my feeling.

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Moody, if you stow the "feeling" and look at the science you'll see that foiling windsurfers and kitesurfers use exactly the same type foil(s): a large forward foil and small trailing aft foil-both supported by a carbon tube "fuselage"-typical "airplane" configuration. Similar to a Moth and many other foilers in that respect. Both types of foil develop vertical lift and are "foilers" in every sense of the word:

 

top kiteboard with foils,next windsurfer foil set

 

 

 

ou8qbr.jpg

 

 

1zbxg0z.jpg

 

 

wrdhsz.jpg

 

2ij0xok.jpg

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I think what moody is getting at is kiting has a large lift vector inherent in its overall set up vs say, a windsurfer or tri/cat.

 

What's the top speed of a kite foiler?

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Moody, if you stow the "feeling" and look at the science you'll see that foiling windsurfers and kitesurfers use exactly the same type foil(s): a large forward foil and small trailing aft foil-both supported by a carbon tube "fuselage"-typical "airplane" configuration. Similar to a Moth and many other foilers in that respect. Both types of foil develop vertical lift and are "foilers" in every sense of the word:

 

top kiteboard with foils,next windsurfer foil set

 

 

 

ou8qbr.jpg

 

 

1zbxg0z.jpg

 

 

wrdhsz.jpg

 

2ij0xok.jpg

Y

Yup, I do know those well, one of them very well.

 

The overall geometry is very similar yes ! Actually a kite "foil apparatus" served as the base of development for the windsurf foil.

 

Now one need to look at the wings profile.

I do not know enough about the kite foils and their latest developments, what I know is that the earliest windsurf foils were already different in this respect and ... the big question mark in windsurf foiling foiling systems currently is how to improve them in order to improve the max-speed which is not outstanding currently.

Actually the board speed / wind speed factor is excellent in low to medium wind forces but clearly unsufficient in stronger winds.

 

Although I am not a kite surfer , I feel, for exemple, that "getting the board out of the water" can be obtained with the kite power only, while the windsurf board gets up through the foils profiles action only, profiles which are not then optimal for max-speed.

 

I guess I have to look a little closer at the latest kite foils profiles.

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I'm amazed this video hasn't been published in this thread yet. It represents the essence of Ultime development using a MOD 70 as a prototype. Gitana appears(so far) to be way ahead of everyone in the successful application of foils-particularly UptiP foils- to large trimarans.

Not only that but when she's flying shes doing it on 2 foils 99% of the time!

 

UPDATE-I see "zargansas" posted the url and since it wasn't embedded I missed it. I guess thats just unfortunate.........

 

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Moody, if you stow the "feeling" and look at the science you'll see that foiling windsurfers and kitesurfers use exactly the same type foil(s): a large forward foil and small trailing aft foil-both supported by a carbon tube "fuselage"-typical "airplane" configuration. Similar to a Moth and many other foilers in that respect. Both types of foil develop vertical lift and are "foilers" in every sense of the word:

 

top kiteboard with foils,next windsurfer foil set

 

 

 

ou8qbr.jpg

 

 

1zbxg0z.jpg

 

 

wrdhsz.jpg

 

2ij0xok.jpg

Y

Yup, I do know those well, one of them very well.

 

The overall geometry is very similar yes ! Actually a kite "foil apparatus" served as the base of development for the windsurf foil.

 

Now one need to look at the wings profile.

I do not know enough about the kite foils and their latest developments, what I know is that the earliest windsurf foils were already different in this respect and ... the big question mark in windsurf foiling foiling systems currently is how to improve them in order to improve the max-speed which is not outstanding currently.

Actually the board speed / wind speed factor is excellent in low to medium wind forces but clearly unsufficient in stronger winds.

 

Although I am not a kite surfer , I feel, for exemple, that "getting the board out of the water" can be obtained with the kite power only, while the windsurf board gets up through the foils profiles action only, profiles which are not then optimal for max-speed.

 

I guess I have to look a little closer at the latest kite foils profiles.

 

 

That picture shows Kevin Ozee foiling a windsurfer at Kanaha circa 2001 - Rush Randle and a few others were doing it well before that. The basis of the windsurf foil technology - and the kite foil technology that followed it years later - was the air chair hydrofoil, which was originally intended to be sat on while towing behind a ski boat.

 

Scroll down to the waterski section:

 

http://www.hydrofoil.org/history.html

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With respect to the Gitana Video - lets get something straight.

 

Yes this boat is impressive and developing well. However the video is severely edited to give you the most impressive bits - soe at slow motion, others not - all to a soul stirring soundtrack.

 

Consider 1.13 in the video - the boat is luffed aggressively to maintain apparent wind but it is clearly falling off the foils and about to touch down when the video cuts away.

 

Then at both 2.09 and 2.19 is show the boat bearing away in a beautiful arc to maintain attitude and re-immerse the centreboard and central rudder which had momentarily lifted out with heel in pressure.

 

The point is that this boat flys most successfully with 4 foils in the water - Leeward Tick foil and Leeward T Rudder providing vertical support with the central Rudder and central Centreboard adding essential leeway resistance.

 

Regardless of what is said or written, this boat does not foil on 2 foils only - nor does a highly edited video give any more evidence of 99% continuous flying.

There are Lies, Damned Lies & Statistics....... (Mainly out of Florida) Learn to separate the wheat from the chaff.

 

They will get there, but it will take time. Need to stop frothing over promotional clips and edited highlights.

 

Progress, undoubtedly; proven transoceanic solution - no not yet.......

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The point is that this boat flys most successfully with 4 foils in the water - Leeward Tick foil and Leeward T Rudder providing vertical support with the central Rudder and central Centreboard adding essential leeway resistance.

 

Regardless of what is said or written, this boat does not foil on 2 foils only - nor does a highly edited video give any more evidence of 99% continuous flying.

There are Lies, Damned Lies & Statistics....... (Mainly out of Florida) Learn to separate the wheat from the chaff.

 

 

 

With the momentary deployment of the windward rudder t-foil the exception the boat most assuredly foils on just two foils for the majority of time it is on foils.

It does not "foil" on the daggerboard or main rudder!! Observations that the daggerboard is being dragged along with the main rudder does not ,in any way, imply that they are necessary for foiling or that they themselves are "foiling"-complete utter nonsense!

The UptiP foils on the ama are capable of generating most of the lateral resistance for the boat-in fact, because their altitude control system relies on leeway coupling some leeway is necessary for the foil to have the excellent heave stability shown in the video.

The fact that this 70' trimaran foils on just two foils so successfully is a major breakthru in trimaran design-ignoring that is just silly.

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There you go again - taking what you want to see - and yet not seeing or understanding the whole picture.

 

Both set of foils are achieving different parts of a symbiotic relationship.

 

One pair cannot achieve the overall result without the other pair. In no way is the centreboard or central rudder being "dragged" along when flying - they are resisting the leeway/sideslip vector.

 

The moments when these foils are out of the water are both dynamic and unsustained. Controlled stable flight is when there are 4 foils in coupled action, not 6 and not 2.

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You are very wrong: the boat was a MOD 70 in its previous life and the 70 had an angled daggerboard and a rudder on the main hull. For their foiling tests the Gitana people added the UptiP ama foil and rudder T-foil on each ama. The main daggerboard and main foil rudder are simply along for the ride(left over from a previous life) and have absolutely nothing to do with the boat foiling. "4 foils in coupled action" is complete nonsense when referring to the Gitana Mod 70! As is the ridiculous: "Both set of foils are achieving different parts of a symbiotic relationship"- just laughable in the complete lack of understanding of what is going on!

 

Read my previous post again.........

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I believe we have just seen why your attempts to design a foiling anything always end in lurching slow bunny hops......

 

Your understanding is fatally flawed

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You are very wrong: the boat was a MOD 70 in its previous life and the 70 had an angled daggerboard and a rudder on the main hull. For their foiling tests the Gitana people added the UptiP ama foil and rudder T-foil on each ama. The main daggerboard and main foil rudder are simply along for the ride(left over from a previous life) and have absolutely nothing to do with the boat foiling. "4 foils in coupled action" is complete nonsense when referring to the Gitana Mod 70! As is the ridiculous: "Both set of foils are achieving different parts of a symbiotic relationship"- just laughable in the complete lack of understanding of what is going on!

 

Read my previous post again.........

 

Doug, are you suggesting that their new maxi design will not have a rudder and daggerboard in the central hull? Because based on what your saying above, there is zero reason to include them on a new design, despite the fact that they have a non passive role on the new Macif etc....

 

You sure do have a knack for making "bold" statements.

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Dougy...

Please start your own fucking WeBSite!

You are such a TooL!!!

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I'm just saying that on the Gitana MOD 70 conversion whether or not the daggerboard and rudder on the main hull are there has ZERO effect on whether the boat foils or not.

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I think the central daggerboard provides a great deal of extra safety from capsizing. In the gitana video, around 2:15, during the bearaway, it looks like every time the heel increases, the daggerboard gets pulled out of the water and leeway increases dramatically. As a result the boat 'falls' back into a stable situation, with less heel and less ride height. As such, It seems that the center dagger board in combination with up tip foils could be a crucial factor in getting these tris flying safe enough for ocean crossings.

 

That is by the way one big advantage of uptip foils over straight, inclined foils. In addition to stability in ride height, you get stability in heel as well!

 

Btw, it is not very clear in the video, but from those few shots from the front it seems that the amount of leeway when flying is quiet substantial. I wonder if that is intended...

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In my opinion, there's no doubt they were experimenting to find how much leeway is optimum . In much of the video the lee uptip foil wasn't even all the way down.

At one point they had the windward rudder t-foil all the way down, then retracted it.

I think one thing to consider is that this foil system is the same basic foil system used on the the AC 72's and the AC 45's and if the uptip foil is designed right for the boat it would require no additional lateral resistance and since there is a rudder on each ama the main hull rudder is probably superfluous for foiling.

The main thing is that this boat clearly foiled on just two foils which is really significant but they were definitely experimenting with the foils including the daggerboard. I'm convinced that in foiling conditions they wouldn't need the main rudder or daggerboard at all-BUT in non-foiling conditions at sea they may well need both.....

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At least since the AC72 I don't thing there is a doubt that foiling on two foils is possible. I do also think that it might be possible to fly an ocean going tri with such a system in flat water. It's a system that is, at least when it comes to ride height more or less stable.

 

However, first of all I am pretty sure that the center rudder and daggerboard in the Gitana tri are not simply leftovers from a previous life: Go through an entire winter of refitting, putting a LOT of effort into designing new appendages and then not bother to simply take out a centreboard and rudder from the older version? Im very convinced that there is some serious thinking behind leaving these original appendages in place.

 

Second of all, I have my doubts that AC72 style foiling would work on an ocean going tri for longer distances/rougher sea states. Compared to the AC72 these boats are a lot wider and a lot heavier. Which means that you would need a HUGE amount of heeling moment, while at the same time keeping that heeling moment within an extremely small range (flying center and windward hull, but not capsizing). Even without foils ocean going tris don't fly two hulls consistently, unless the conditions are ideal (small sea state and very consistent wind).

 

A possible solution however, and I do think that that can be seen in the gitana video, would be to create a system that is stable in heel AND ride hide. This stability can, IMHO not be obtained with only a t-foil rudder and an L daggerboard

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As I said in my last post, I've become convinced that the reason the main rudder and daggerboard are still on the boat is to improve handling in rough, non-foiling conditions. Other than that they're not necessary for foiling.

I'm also convinced that the foiling configuration might be better if the rudder t-foils on the amas were removed and a T-foil was added to the main rudder and an altitude controlled T-foil was added to the daggerboard. That would allow control of the the angle of heel, earlier flight, and offer the potential of increasing RM thru downforce from the daggerboard foil. This system would offer a stable, consistent angle of heel(main hull flight altitude) as well as being able to control the ride angle of the lee ama uptip foil. Because of the extra stability available due to the daggerboard foil, the whole design might be able to be wider and still have very early takeoff in suitable conditions.

The disadvantage is that the boat would fly with three foils in the water-but with far greater stability and earlier takeoff. And the daggerboard foil would tend to unload(reducing drag) up to the point of producing downforce.

We're just at the beginning of these ocean going foilers-exciting developments ahead!

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"altitude controlled T-foil was added to the daggerboard"

 

Seriuosly!?!?!?

 

Your other suggestions just want it to look like your arrow thingy...

 

I think this development team has a tad more real world experience than you, as well as probably 100 times more emperical data in 1/10th the time of the fire dart.

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Doug, while I admire your thick skin you do seem to be flying (excuse the pun) against a cyclone .

 

Just wondering, if you are such a guru why hasn't anyone picked you up to head their foiling team?

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At least since the AC72 I don't thing there is a doubt that foiling on two foils is possible. I do also think that it might be possible to fly an ocean going tri with such a system in flat water. It's a system that is, at least when it comes to ride height more or less stable.

 

However, first of all I am pretty sure that the center rudder and daggerboard in the Gitana tri are not simply leftovers from a previous life: Go through an entire winter of refitting, putting a LOT of effort into designing new appendages and then not bother to simply take out a centreboard and rudder from the older version? Im very convinced that there is some serious thinking behind leaving these original appendages in place.

The boat will likely spend a lot of time not fully foiling, so it makes sense to retain non–foiling capability. Foiling boards are great for foiling, but suck in displacement mode compared to boards designed for displacement mode, especially going to windward.

 

Second of all, I have my doubts that AC72 style foiling would work on an ocean going tri for longer distances/rougher sea states. Compared to the AC72 these boats are a lot wider and a lot heavier. Which means that you would need a HUGE amount of heeling moment, while at the same time keeping that heeling moment within an extremely small range (flying center and windward hull, but not capsizing). Even without foils ocean going tris don't fly two hulls consistently, unless the conditions are ideal (small sea state and very consistent wind).

You point to another issue for long distance two foil foiling: fatigue. It requires constant sail and rudder trim from even more specialised crew, so not a job that can be handed to just anyone. I imagine it's extremely difficult to sustain for more than a few hours, much less days on end. So even if more stable systems have a lower top end speed (and there's nothing to say they do), they may be faster overall by being easier to sail.

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So these amateur hacks (The Gitana MOD 70 development team & sailing crew) just happen to leave down a rather large centreboard and central rudder - which in your opinion is just being "dragged" along - yet they still managed over 42 knots of boat speed.......

 

What complete dumb asses - they would have cracked a sustained 45 knots with them up......

 

Stop trying to deflect the conversation away to what position the weather foil and rudder is in. That is largely irrelevant - and further highlights my initial observation that the video is just edited highlights and not some peer reviewed thesis on how to get a trans oceanic 70 foot trimaran to hydrofoil.

 

They foil with 4 foils deployed. Get over it. When it rolls in to weather all 6 hit water (along with the weather hull) and when it heels too much the centreboard and rudder lift out and the combined side slip with bear away re-establishes normal flight height but at a lower heading while the puff remains. Simple really. But only sailors who have sailed apparent wind machines would know that - so that is just a few hundred thousand or so. But not you......

 

Otherwise, Go play with the freeway traffic Doug - on foot. Then well see u fly.

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At least since the AC72 I don't thing there is a doubt that foiling on two foils is possible. I do also think that it might be possible to fly an ocean going tri with such a system in flat water. It's a system that is, at least when it comes to ride height more or less stable.

 

However, first of all I am pretty sure that the center rudder and daggerboard in the Gitana tri are not simply leftovers from a previous life: Go through an entire winter of refitting, putting a LOT of effort into designing new appendages and then not bother to simply take out a centreboard and rudder from the older version? Im very convinced that there is some serious thinking behind leaving these original appendages in place.

The boat will likely spend a lot of time not fully foiling, so it makes sense to retain non–foiling capability. Foiling boards are great for foiling, but suck in displacement mode compared to boards designed for displacement mode, especially going to windward.

 

but especially in displacement mode, wouldn't up tip foils already provide the necessary lateral side force when fully submerged, eliminating the need of the extra centreline daggerboard? After all, at least AC72 style L-shaped foils are more or less normal daggerboards with a horizontal tip...

 

I do realise that that horizontal tip is a significant brake in displacement mode, however, also in the current configuration, the horizontal tip of the (leeward) foil will always be dragged through the water because these foils can't be retracted completely, like traditional daggerboards. So that negative effect still applies to the current situation as far as i can see.

 

My point being: I don't think there is an advantage in sailing in displacement mode with a centreline daggerboard and the horizontal part of the leeward L foil submerged, over sailing in displacement mode with only one L-shaped foil fully submerged.

 

Which leaves me to agree completely with your second point. For an ocean going tri it is a plain necessity to sacrifice some top speed potential in favour of stability. I am convinced that the 4 foil configuration that we see in the video is a result of weighing those two factors.

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The Macif set up, looks excellent for single handed racing.... love the protection from the elements.

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Interesting, looks like Gitana team no longer see it necessary to test out their foils/systems for their G-class under construction on the MOD70, as it is now under the name of Maserati, with Soldini planning to do some record hunting with the tweaked MOD70:

 

Legendary Italian yachtsman Giovanni Soldini will be taking the helm of an innovative Multi70 trimaran for the 2016-17 season. The craft which will be renamed Maserati Multi70, replaces the VOR70 monohull which achieved great success in the last three years. Maserati has renewed its commitment as the main sponsor for Soldini and his team, consolidating a relationship that commenced in 2013. They will be flanked once again by project sponsor UnipolSai Assicurazioni as well as official clothing supplier Ermenegildo Zegna and paint and enamel supplier Boero Bartolomeo. The 21.2 metre Multi70 trimaran was designed by the VPLP (Van Peteghem Lauriot-Prevost) studio and optimised by Team Gitana in collaboration with Guillaume Verdier. Representing a new frontier in sailing, the Maserati Multi70 makes use of pioneering technology which enables her to rise out of the water on her foils and T-foil rudders, drastically reducing her wet surface and thus boosting her performance. Such advanced technology means the Maserati Multi70 is capable of reaching in excess of 40 knots.

 

 

http://www.conceptcarz.com/a16276/GIOVANNI-SOLDINI-AND-MASERATI-CONTINUE-THE-CHALLENGE-IN-A-MULTI70-TRIMARAN.aspx

 

giovanni-soldini-maserati-multi70-02-800

 

giovanni-soldini-maserati-multi70-01-800

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Soldini seems to have the best pensioner job in the world.

 

Interesting, looks like Gitana team no longer see it necessary to test out their foils/systems for their G-class under construction on the MOD70, as it is now under the name of Maserati, with Soldini planning to do some record hunting with the tweaked MOD70:

 

Legendary Italian yachtsman Giovanni Soldini will be taking the helm of an innovative Multi70 trimaran for the 2016-17 season. The craft which will be renamed Maserati Multi70, replaces the VOR70 monohull which achieved great success in the last three years. Maserati has renewed its commitment as the main sponsor for Soldini and his team, consolidating a relationship that commenced in 2013. They will be flanked once again by project sponsor UnipolSai Assicurazioni as well as official clothing supplier Ermenegildo Zegna and paint and enamel supplier Boero Bartolomeo. The 21.2 metre Multi70 trimaran was designed by the VPLP (Van Peteghem Lauriot-Prevost) studio and optimised by Team Gitana in collaboration with Guillaume Verdier. Representing a new frontier in sailing, the Maserati Multi70 makes use of pioneering technology which enables her to rise out of the water on her foils and T-foil rudders, drastically reducing her wet surface and thus boosting her performance. Such advanced technology means the Maserati Multi70 is capable of reaching in excess of 40 knots.

 

 

http://www.conceptcarz.com/a16276/GIOVANNI-SOLDINI-AND-MASERATI-CONTINUE-THE-CHALLENGE-IN-A-MULTI70-TRIMARAN.aspx

 

giovanni-soldini-maserati-multi70-02-800

 

giovanni-soldini-maserati-multi70-01-800

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Soldini seems to have the best pensioner job in the world.

 

Yep. With all the money spent in the last years, they could have put together a fair VOR campaign.

Or are they making noise for getting enough money for the VOR? I guess no... this MOD70 program is too close to VO start.

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VOR is lame. Seems Soldini likes playing with performance and innovation, rather than a OD race of follow-the-leader / conga-line. Good for him. Man, I hope VOR ditches the OD idea some day and brings the race back to when it was interesting.

 

By the way, did Soldini rent the old turbo'd VO70, or had he bought it? It is not specifically indicated, but it looks as though this is a lease situation with the Baron for the MOD. I wonder if part of the agreement is that Gitana Team has access to him and the boat for information and to test out any tweaks between record attempts.

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Oh, yeah, and another by-the-way, love the new livery for the MOD. Boat looks really nice with the Maserati scheme, white hulls and navy "decks". Classy looking boat.

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Wonder if it solely will be a record hunting project or if they also will compete in some of the 600 nm races

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Classy looking - well, I suppose, but honestly a little dull and conservative.

Was somewhat underwhelmed.

Got the feeling that the painter was allowed to choose what to do - and he chose EASY (well as easy as it gets for painting such a large area.....)

 

I know graphics can get absolutely mad and OTT - but for a brand that trades on its performance and luxury positioning - I had hoped for more.

 

I think it will be an interesting cycle in these boats for the next few years.

 

Will Larger actually translate to faster now that we have the foil technology - or much like AC50's are as fast as the AC72's were, will a suitably modded MOD70 (no pun intended) actually upset some of the bigger new boys?

 

I kinda' think they could - but do not know if this would be good (we all love an underdog campaign taking on the big end of town) or bad for sponsor prospects in our sport.

 

Have admired Soldini ever since his Open 50 Kodak - that was a great story. Hope he can get his boat alongside Phaedo and Concise.

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Classy looking - well, I suppose, but honestly a little dull and conservative.

Was somewhat underwhelmed.

Got the feeling that the painter was allowed to choose what to do - and he chose EASY (well as easy as it gets for painting such a large area.....)

 

I know graphics can get absolutely mad and OTT - but for a brand that trades on its performance and luxury positioning - I had hoped for more.

 

I think it will be an interesting cycle in these boats for the next few years.

 

Will Larger actually translate to faster now that we have the foil technology - or much like AC50's are as fast as the AC72's were, will a suitably modded MOD70 (no pun intended) actually upset some of the bigger new boys?

 

I kinda' think they could - but do not know if this would be good (we all love an underdog campaign taking on the big end of town) or bad for sponsor prospects in our sport.

 

Have admired Soldini ever since his Open 50 Kodak - that was a great story. Hope he can get his boat alongside Phaedo and Concise.

 

To each, there own. I am sick of lines & badges all over these boats. I love the simple look of white with navy decks and simple badging. I like the looks of the new Cammas/Team France AC45, and I liked the old Aleph AC45, for similar reasons. I like the looks of the Artemis boats.

 

"for a brand that trades on its performance and luxury positioning" I don't see Maserati splashing lines and crap all over their cars. I think this look is fitting with the brand. Luxury does not fit with short attention span gaudy livery.

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I had the pleasure of sailing with Giovanni for a few days a couple of months back to hand over the VO 70 to the new owner so i can answer some questions

He owned the VO 70 and I believe he bought the MOD 70, not leased

He is far from retired as he runs a solar panel company as well as sailing and promoting for his sponsors... His panels and knowledge of battery energy is huge... the VO 70 keel is mainly operated on a DC pump but can also operate from the main enginge if needed for quick operation...It doesn't run an engine constantly like most canting boats.... which is quieter all round other than the noise of doing 20-30 knots in an all carbon drum.

He will likely do some racing against the other 70's as well as break records between promo sailing

He was going to do VO champagne last edition but he disliked the way the OD system worked and the fact you were tied to prices and structure of all suppliers.... very expensive and a complete monopoly....he couldn't cop it.

Very cool guy as is his offsider Guido and his crew....

I sucked as much info out of him as i could in 3 days.....wish i'd had another 3......

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Nice Pil - so who bought the VOR70? and whats it going to do?

 

The MOD 70 should come & do a lap of OZ - that record is ripe for an update........

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Nice Pil - so who bought the VOR70? and whats it going to do?

 

The MOD 70 should come & do a lap of OZ - that record is ripe for an update........

Same guy who owns Brindabella and Bumblebee V

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Classy looking - well, I suppose, but honestly a little dull and conservative.

Was somewhat underwhelmed.

Got the feeling that the painter was allowed to choose what to do - and he chose EASY (well as easy as it gets for painting such a large area.....)

 

I know graphics can get absolutely mad and OTT - but for a brand that trades on its performance and luxury positioning - I had hoped for more.

 

I think it will be an interesting cycle in these boats for the next few years.

 

Will Larger actually translate to faster now that we have the foil technology - or much like AC50's are as fast as the AC72's were, will a suitably modded MOD70 (no pun intended) actually upset some of the bigger new boys?

 

I kinda' think they could - but do not know if this would be good (we all love an underdog campaign taking on the big end of town) or bad for sponsor prospects in our sport.

 

Have admired Soldini ever since his Open 50 Kodak - that was a great story. Hope he can get his boat alongside Phaedo and Concise.

 

To each, there own. I am sick of lines & badges all over these boats. I love the simple look of white with navy decks and simple badging. I like the looks of the new Cammas/Team France AC45, and I liked the old Aleph AC45, for similar reasons. I like the looks of the Artemis boats.

 

"for a brand that trades on its performance and luxury positioning" I don't see Maserati splashing lines and crap all over their cars. I think this look is fitting with the brand. Luxury does not fit with short attention span gaudy livery.

 

Completely agree - I love the clean look of the boats that you listed...

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Sodebo beats the solo 24h record. 714 miles or 29.75 knots average! Will Gabart on Macif beat it when he goes for the north atlantic record? (if he gets a nice weather window)

 

https://www.adonnante.com/39059-record-ultime-nouveau-record-de-distance-en-24h-en-solitaire-pour-thomas-coville-sur-sodebo-ultim/

 

Sorry i didn't find an english article...

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By the way, doesn't it look like Sodebo could really gain from some work on its aerodynamics? Man, those beams are creating a huge mess behind them:

 

record-ultime-sodebo-thomas-coville-the-

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