• Announcements

    • Zapata

      Abbreviated rules   07/28/2017

      Underdawg did an excellent job of explaining the rules.  Here's the simplified version: Don't insinuate Pedo.  Warning and or timeout for a first offense.  PermaFlick for any subsequent offenses Don't out members.  See above for penalties.  Caveat:  if you have ever used your own real name or personal information here on the forums since, like, ever - it doesn't count and you are fair game. If you see spam posts, report it to the mods.  We do not hang out in every thread 24/7 If you see any of the above, report it to the mods by hitting the Report button in the offending post.   We do not take action for foul language, off-subject content, or abusive behavior unless it escalates to persistent stalking.  There may be times that we might warn someone or flick someone for something particularly egregious.  There is no standard, we will know it when we see it.  If you continually report things that do not fall into rules #1 or 2 above, you may very well get a timeout yourself for annoying the Mods with repeated whining.  Use your best judgement. Warnings, timeouts, suspensions and flicks are arbitrary and capricious.  Deal with it.  Welcome to anarchy.   If you are a newbie, there are unwritten rules to adhere to.  They will be explained to you soon enough.  
Sign in to follow this  
Schnick

Racing program as a profit center for Yacht Clubs - who does it?

Recommended Posts

Any clubs out there that actually make money off running races? Most YC's that I have been involved with have considered running / administering / facilitating racing as one of their core missions and really just try to limit the cost to something close to a break even. One club I race at sometimes seems to be trying to run races for a net profit. Just wondering what the norm is out there in the wide world. I mean aside from stuff like STYC running Key West, I'm just talking about regular local weekend racing.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Any clubs out there that actually make money off running races? Most YC's that I have been involved with have considered running / administering / facilitating racing as one of their core missions and really just try to limit the cost to something close to a break even. One club I race at sometimes seems to be trying to run races for a net profit. Just wondering what the norm is out there in the wide world. I mean aside from stuff like STYC running Key West, I'm just talking about regular local weekend racing.

 

It's going to depend on who runs the accounting.

 

Typically, all the expenses get shoved to the regatta, and all the extra bar income gets credited to the F&B side, as if those extra people just magically appeared.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Of course as our esteemed leader has said on a number of occasions; "yacht racing is a non core activity".

And there is the logic that as we lose money on yacht racing we should stop it.

 

There is hardly a club around that has not lost the battle to just becoming a boat storage facility and once that occurs the long term fate is decided as the purpose for which the club started has disappeared.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I traveled to a regatta last year. ~100 or so entries. Don't remember the entry fee but it wasn't cheap. I overheard a conversation in the bar between 2 club members (while I was having to buy a beer) - "We are making a bunch of money this weekend!"

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Our club makes a profit on racing but it is all at the bar. The accounting is easy because if there was no race on Tuesday night, the place would be empty. The race personnel are all volunteers as is the food service. We cook our own burgers after the race. I think dinner and a beer is $10. No entry fee for club members and dues are $350 a year as I recall. Racing is $100 for non members. That gets 4 months of racing every Tuesday night. Best deal on the bay.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Back in the Early '90s I was running the Races at Sierra Point YC in the Bay Area. I was very pleased how much support I was getting from the club. Anything I wanted, "No problem sir!" One day I asked the Commodore about it. His answer was "This sailboat racing is the biggest money maker this club has ever had. Have fun with it!"

 

-jim lee

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

has anyone ever sued a club to require it to run more racing, in accordance with its articles of membership or incorporation or whatever is its foundational document?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

We break about even on the pure racing income/expense. Like most, we drive a lot of bar/galley revenue; I'm glad for that. The Club has a better bar and galley than if there was no racing.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

has anyone ever sued a club to require it to run more racing, in accordance with its articles of membership or incorporation or whatever is its foundational document?

Really Clean? That would accomplish a lot. Piss off everyone and make the club spend money on lawyers. They will all look at you and say, "what are you doing to promote racing?"

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

has anyone ever sued a club to require it to run more racing, in accordance with its articles of membership or incorporation or whatever is its foundational document?

Really Clean? That would accomplish a lot. Piss off everyone and make the club spend money on lawyers. They will all look at you and say, "what are you doing to promote racing?"

 

 

Here's a question: Would you be upset if you joined a "health and fitness" club on the premise that the main focus of said club was "health and fitness" only to see the lap swimming pool rented out for birthday parties all weekend long AND the club hitting you with an assessments every year to extend the bar?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

has anyone ever sued a club to require it to run more racing, in accordance with its articles of membership or incorporation or whatever is its foundational document?

Really Clean? That would accomplish a lot. Piss off everyone and make the club spend money on lawyers. They will all look at you and say, "what are you doing to promote racing?"

 

I think it is a fair question especially after the lawsuit in Annapolis/Eastport recently.

 

Clean didn't say he recommended it. He merely asked a question.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Any clubs out there that actually make money off running races?

 

Absolutely yes. Around here, if a club runs an event primarily for non-members, it will plan to make money on it. I can think of at least one small club that survives financially by running one large event.

 

I'm just talking about regular local weekend racing.

That's a bit vague. If you mean club racing for club members only, or primarily for members only, most clubs don't charge members for that. It's normal, for example, for a club to run its Winter series free to members and for a small charge to non-members.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Here's a question: Would you be upset if you joined a "health and fitness" club on the premise that the main focus of said club was "health and fitness" only to see the lap swimming pool rented out for birthday parties all weekend long AND the club hitting you with an assessments every year to extend the bar?

Not the same. "Health and fitness" clubs are commercial operations, at least every one I know is. "Club" is just a word. Whereas around here, sailing clubs actually are members' clubs.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I'm just talking about regular local weekend racing.

 

i don't think most clubs send out a bill for "regular local weekend racing"

 

it's included in the dues

 

so i'm not sure how they could book a profit from regular racing

 

when they host regattas, that's a different matter - i think they try to break even on the costs with the registration fees, anything else is a bonus,

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Peter, I did not know you were a member of my club.

Ding ding! Peter must have been to our club!

They hide all the loses in sailing and take all the profits in the bar. When I was in charge of sailing the 'House' would invoice the sailing office for over 60K a year for 'Volunteer lunches'. this was a wrap, a soft drink and a mars bar, charged at the full retail rate! This made sailings figures worse off by 60k a year whilst improving house income by the same amount. The income from the bar by the sailors (and the volunteers who stick around drinking each weekend) naturally go into the house tin. We bought 6 sports boats all that were fully capitalized by sponsorship. Again the sponsorship money (about 90k) went into the clubs income whilst the cash to pay for them came out of sailings budget!

At the end of the year the commodore says that over all the club is doing great but that sailing is costing too much to run and pulls the plug on the huge junior program we had going. They then spend 2 million dollars on a new building for functions and a restaurant kitchen. Oh and a new board room of course called the commodores private lounge! The Commodore's exact words to me were that we sailors are a elite minority and the power boat members are sick of paying for it. The same guy appointed one of his closest friends to run the sailing office as a full time employee. The position was not advertised he just gave it to his mate and the sailors have left in droves. Divisional yachts are now down to about 6 competitors each weekend, yet another club got 112 starters for a race last weekend. About half of the fleet are members of our club yet race with another! This is at one of the largest sailing clubs in the country. My advise to all sailing clubs is - if they don't own a sailing boat, they can not be full members, do not get a vote and cannot sit on the board.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

has anyone ever sued a club to require it to run more racing, in accordance with its articles of membership or incorporation or whatever is its foundational document?

how about suing a club to have less weddings, or be open more than 3 days a week

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Any club that starts treating sailing as a profit and loss centre won't be doing it for very long......sailing will quickly join the dinosaur and then they will have plenty of time on their hands to ponder how to obtain income from absentee power boat members.

 

Maybe it's time to substitute the word Yacht with Sailing in club names to enable them to leapfrog fucktard stewardship and remove the outside perception they are hangouts for the blazered diesel sniffing elite.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Any club that starts treating sailing as a profit and loss centre won't be doing it for very long......sailing will quickly join the dinosaur and then they will have plenty of time on their hands to ponder how to obtain income from absentee power boat members.

 

Maybe it's time to substitute the word Yacht with Sailing in club names to enable them to leapfrog fucktard stewardship and remove the outside perception they are hangouts for the blazered diesel sniffing elite.

In any accounting system areas of the operation need to be noted as either profit or loss centres, the point is that the cost of sailing is understood to be the reason the place is there. And all other profit centres are there for that reason.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

 

Any club that starts treating sailing as a profit and loss centre won't be doing it for very long......sailing will quickly join the dinosaur and then they will have plenty of time on their hands to ponder how to obtain income from absentee power boat members.

 

Maybe it's time to substitute the word Yacht with Sailing in club names to enable them to leapfrog fucktard stewardship and remove the outside perception they are hangouts for the blazered diesel sniffing elite.

In any accounting system areas of the operation need to be noted as either profit or loss centres, the point is that the cost of sailing is understood to be the reason the place is there. And all other profit centres are there for that reason.
Correct LB and just like the real world where performance is judged separately but still allows losses either for strategic growth, bets on the future or altruistic reasons. Some companies even have operations that have little or nothing to do with their current core business. Bit like sailing clubs hosting same sex weddings to broaden recurrent income.

 

For instance Alphabet Inc, Google's parent company and largest cap company in the world has so called moon-shot loss making ventures, such as Google fiber and internet balloons, self-driving car operations etc. Using accounting to improve individual operations sure, but Clubs that single out sailings performance soley on a profit and loss basis will knowingly or otherwise fuck sailing. It has to be subsidised and can't ever be treated the same as other more profit orientated operations.

 

Your club LB sounds as though it is well advanced turning sailing into dinasour of the species.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

You are quite right. Yep it is a huge operation, I am sure you know the club in question but no names is best pack drill for this discussion. No shortage of lawyers around here! To the credit of many past boards, the assets and facilities are astounding- world class in fact. But in generations past the pursuit of sport in sailing boats has been the core busniess of the place. But eventually it gets to a size where it 'the club' becomes the main priority and it feeds on itself. If it was vastly profitable and this was being returned in full to the sailors then they can buy a casino for all I care but sadly it isn't. So to feed the beast, other 'for profit' activities have to be undertaken. Restarants, bars, function rooms, weddings, car shows, whatever, but it still distracts from member benefits, particularly for the sailors. Suddenly sailors can't hold presentation in the club bar area. We can't offend the non member visitors eating lunch- bad for atmosphere.

We dont want kids in wetsuits walking through the bar area. that part of the rigging lawn is being used for a wedding today. Gates requiring swipe cards everywhere. More staff, longer trading hours $40 main meals in the club restarant ect ect. You feel more like a member of an RSL club than your old sailing club.Now you have a conglomerate of busniess centres that must contribute. Sailing becomes another cost centre. A tiny minority feel the power boaters shouldnt have to subsidise the sailors. Those that feel it is an unfair burden should leave. Now. But sadly where to you go from here? All this empire that has been created needs to pay its way. But a reality check needs to happen. Where is all this going?

I am glad I am out of it.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Saw the same thing recently on a different scale where yhe cruising sailors just wamted the cheapest possable access to the free moorings on the river and place to store their trollys and winter their boats vs those that wanted to race.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

IIRC when Family Clean visited the largest dinghy club in the UK, a complaint was "no pool" and "no creche".

 

Want a swim? There's the sea.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

Here's a question: Would you be upset if you joined a "health and fitness" club on the premise that the main focus of said club was "health and fitness" only to see the lap swimming pool rented out for birthday parties all weekend long AND the club hitting you with an assessments every year to extend the bar?

Not the same. "Health and fitness" clubs are commercial operations, at least every one I know is. "Club" is just a word. Whereas around here, sailing clubs actually are members' clubs.

 

 

I was trying to point out the frustration anyone would feel when they're the victim of a good old fashioned bait and switch

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Lb, you have those facilities because for three decades the leadership were guys who in earlier days were Olympic reps, world ranked competitors that travelled extensively and competed overseas and set up great world class facilities because those guys saw other facilities good and bad everywhere. 1976 Finn Gold Cup was born of those experiences for instance.

 

Not sure you have any leadership at all now.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Both Florida clubs run an impressive number of regattas.

They are astute enough to sponsor events large enough to pay for themselves through entry fee, banquet, bar tabs and sponsorship.

The really small events have gone on to other venues.

Just too expensive to have the big club run them.

I am sort of the default Principal Race Official for several of those smaller events that don't want to pay the significant entry fee at the big clubs and are not requiring a fancy banquet.

Little Gulfport YC, off the beach at Fort Desoto or, more recently, Clearwater Community Sailing Center are less expensive venues.

St. Pete and Davis Island YCs do an excellent job of promoting sailing.

They make sure they don't lose a bunch of the member's resources to do so.

Full disclosure: I was the sailing employee at SPYC for 12+ years.

Dave Ellis

Tampa Bay, Florida

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Putting in a swimming pool is the first step on the road to perdition.

 

Indeed. At our club the pool is in the 4 star motel we have on club grounds! It is a great asset. Brings in cash and is great for regattas.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

We try and not LOSE money on our races with mixed results. If enough people show up we might make a few $ and we might lose a few if turnout is short. Like any number of low budget clubs with no paid employees, we just hope we sell enough beer to pay for the beer truck ;)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I've been to my fair share of out of town regattas and local regattas. I've seen crazy entry fees and modest ones. I have also done enough R/C to know what it costs to run regattas. It seems to me, that many clubs shoot to break even or aim for a slight profit. Yet some regattas. The $300+ entry fee just keeps me at home. I have seen some of those type regattas give you enough swag to make it seem like your not getting screwed. But more often than not, your just getting screwed.

I'm not sure were the governing bodies of sailing are going. But since the decline in boat #'s in regattas across the USA, I would think they would try to find a solution. I personally see entry fees as one Large hurdle.

If I want to do a J24 midwinters, There's a few thousand by the time I'm done. Not counting sails. A Melges24, add around $500, for No Reason. A bigger boat, add another 800. Even a small Rhodes 19 or Sunfish regatta gets into the 600-1500 range depending on how far you go. A 100-150 entry fee makes it so much easier to handle the hotel, gas, food expenses, beer, etc.

I know of at least 3, j24 regattas I've not done because of cost. At least 2 M24 regattas not attended. All in the last year and a half. I can stay home. sail other local, cheap regattas. The competition might not be the same, but it wont cost me 1600 to go hang out at Florida YC.

And you could call me cheap. I am. But I am still someone with way to many boats, that Loves to try other goldfish bowls.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

We have exactly this problem at one of my clubs. The facilities are first class, probably the best in the UK, certainly the best I've seen. However many of the more prominent members (prominent because they spend the weekend sipping pimms in their blazers rather than being out on their boats) whinge that the sailing wing doesn't make a profit. It is not only the sailing that fills the bars and the dining room, it also brings in the new members, sells the parking fees and creates the prestige that the stuffed blazers crave.

 

Still, gives me something to moan about I suppose.

We have exactly this problem at one of my clubs. The facilities are first class, probably the best in the UK, certainly the best I've seen. However many of the more prominent members (prominent because they spend the weekend sipping pimms in their blazers rather than being out on their boats) whinge that the sailing wing doesn't make a profit. It is not only the sailing that fills the bars and the dining room, it also brings in the new members, sells the parking fees and creates the prestige that the stuffed blazers crave.

 

Still, gives me something to moan about I suppose.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I dealt with a club once that after a large One Design Regatta, sent the class a bill for use of the club PA System at the awards, use of the club hoist to launch boats and about a dozen other nickle and dime charges not disclosed up front. They decided after the fact that they should make more money off of the largest One Design Keelboat Fleet they had seen in 15 years. A packed bar for a week and a few hundred dinners weren't enough. Irritating.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

What other recourse does a member of a non-profit club have if they believe it has been hijacked and the current management no longer complies with the club's founding documents? Whinge about it like a beaten up pussy?

 

 

 

has anyone ever sued a club to require it to run more racing, in accordance with its articles of membership or incorporation or whatever is its foundational document?

Really Clean? That would accomplish a lot. Piss off everyone and make the club spend money on lawyers. They will all look at you and say, "what are you doing to promote racing?"

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I think you need to have your memory checked dogwatch. No pool? And what the fuck is a 'creche' and why would it have mattered to me three years ago? Fucking mumpty.

 

 

IIRC when Family Clean visited the largest dinghy club in the UK, a complaint was "no pool" and "no creche".

 

Want a swim? There's the sea.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

What other recourse does a member of a non-profit club have if they believe it has been hijacked and the current management no longer complies with the club's founding documents? Whinge about it like a beaten up pussy?

 

 

 

 

 

has anyone ever sued a club to require it to run more racing, in accordance with its articles of membership or incorporation or whatever is its foundational document?

Really Clean? That would accomplish a lot. Piss off everyone and make the club spend money on lawyers. They will all look at you and say, "what are you doing to promote racing?"

I simply threaten to stand for a committee. That usually puts them back in their box. The last thing they want is me on the House Committee

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I don't think we charge more than $50 for anything, but we count on a lot of volunteers with their own boats and gas.

 

I've been to my fair share of out of town regattas and local regattas. I've seen crazy entry fees and modest ones. I have also done enough R/C to know what it costs to run regattas. It seems to me, that many clubs shoot to break even or aim for a slight profit. Yet some regattas. The $300+ entry fee just keeps me at home. I have seen some of those type regattas give you enough swag to make it seem like your not getting screwed. But more often than not, your just getting screwed.

I'm not sure were the governing bodies of sailing are going. But since the decline in boat #'s in regattas across the USA, I would think they would try to find a solution. I personally see entry fees as one Large hurdle.

If I want to do a J24 midwinters, There's a few thousand by the time I'm done. Not counting sails. A Melges24, add around $500, for No Reason. A bigger boat, add another 800. Even a small Rhodes 19 or Sunfish regatta gets into the 600-1500 range depending on how far you go. A 100-150 entry fee makes it so much easier to handle the hotel, gas, food expenses, beer, etc.

I know of at least 3, j24 regattas I've not done because of cost. At least 2 M24 regattas not attended. All in the last year and a half. I can stay home. sail other local, cheap regattas. The competition might not be the same, but it wont cost me 1600 to go hang out at Florida YC.

And you could call me cheap. I am. But I am still someone with way to many boats, that Loves to try other goldfish bowls.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

At the point it becomes a lawyer-fight, I would be out of that club so fast................

I can't imagine a quicker way to destroy a club. Better to be vigilant and *never* let the supper club/senior center people get power in the first place.

 

What other recourse does a member of a non-profit club have if they believe it has been hijacked and the current management no longer complies with the club's founding documents? Whinge about it like a beaten up pussy?

 

 

 

has anyone ever sued a club to require it to run more racing, in accordance with its articles of membership or incorporation or whatever is its foundational document?

Really Clean? That would accomplish a lot. Piss off everyone and make the club spend money on lawyers. They will all look at you and say, "what are you doing to promote racing?"

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

What other recourse does a member of a non-profit club have if they believe it has been hijacked and the current management no longer complies with the club's founding documents? Whinge about it like a beaten up pussy?

 

No. What you have to do is get involved in the management of the club. You have to get on the board of directors or become an officer. You have to get other sailors involved in club management . Yes, it takes time and is a complete pain in the ass but that's what it takes, hard work and patience. You have to recruit more sailors. You have to get big events and run them well. The problem is that people don't want to do the work nor spend the time. They just want things their way and fast. They just want to complain at the bar or on the interweb . Do the work.

 

So Clean, are you a member of a sailing club, have you been an officer or board member ?

 

 

 

 

has anyone ever sued a club to require it to run more racing, in accordance with its articles of membership or incorporation or whatever is its foundational document?

Really Clean? That would accomplish a lot. Piss off everyone and make the club spend money on lawyers. They will all look at you and say, "what are you doing to promote racing?"

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

CLUB EVOLUTION

  • They are founded because while the sailors can afford a boat, each cannot own waterfront property to sail their boats from. They pool their resources together so that they have access to the water.
  • A shelter sounds like a good idea, so they build a clubhouse, commonly with restrooms.
  • Basic needs of life are added, food and beverage.
  • As the original group ages, they continue to make good money and no longer wish to row out to their boats at anchorage. They build docks to moor their boats at.
  • Over time as the original members age and no longer sail, the remain in charge and change the focus to their current needs. A place to hang out and drink some swill. Because they were successful early in age to own boats, they are very comfortable financially speaking in retirement and want first class facilities. Renovations occur, building additions occur, other things get added - trap shooting, swimming pool, tennis courts, and most importantly running a gourmet restaurant.....that is available only to members (there are not enough patrons of this restaurant to support it).

By this time the original purpose of the club has vanished, it is no longer access to the waterfront for boat owners who cannot afford waterfront property. The expenses of a full facility operations dwarfs the costs of just having some place to tie a dinghy to.

 

For a club to be successful in sailing, it must resist the restaurant addition. It must resist "other activities" that are not boating related. It must resist tennis courts and swimming pools. To provide for a place to have access to the water, the members must have the money to operate their boats, not operate a retirement home.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

You left out the part where none of the younger members ever tried to actually get on the board and run anything, but just biatched about all the free work done by the old guys ;)

a lot of the younger generation feel their views won't get heard, or they will be forced to toe the line when it comes to policy. it all appears as the old boys club and don't piss off the old boys

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I was with a bike club that formed because a bunch of dudes wanted to ride bikes and race together. We put on one race, it made good sponsorship money. We put on another race within the year - that made decent money too, but the club was a non-profit so we started plowing profits back into the races and athlete development. Within a couple years we were up to four races per year, largely still amateur but with small pro fields, total cash flow in the neighborhood of $60k outside income (not counting maybe $100k that passed through the club for clothing and team gear purchases). Vendors and sponsors setting up shop at our races made similar amounts. I was promoting a couple of the races and kicking ass at it, they were growing and the only place to go was to go full pro. We talked about subsidizing team camps and stuff out of it, using the races as a profit centers. Most of the original members and the next 60 or so had no idea of what level of volunteer commitment was required or the money involved. Yet they both bitched about having to volunteer (that's when they'd show) and they bitched about how they weren't getting monetary benefits out of all these events, and they crowed about how great our events were and how we should keep growing them - good for the Club! The old guys also bitched because it seemed like we weren't just a bunch of guys who liked riding and racing and hanging out together any more. It was like a business. And maybe a dozen of us out of 140 members carried the damn thing, year in and year out.

 

So I left. Fuck that shit. You can't turn something into a business, then expect it won't get run like a business, then indulge yourself in bitching because the club is run like a business, after you demanded it be turned into a business. It all starts with mission creep, and with an eye toward growth without thinking about what the consequences of that growth will be.

 

It's the same everywhere, not just at YC's.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

There are people that would leave their club 'at the point it becomes a lawyer-fight' but won't leave when others run the sailing program into the ground. They'll complain about it on SA, but not in their board meetings.

 

 

 

 

At the point it becomes a lawyer-fight, I would be out of that club so fast................

I can't imagine a quicker way to destroy a club. Better to be vigilant and *never* let the supper club/senior center people get power in the first place.

 

What other recourse does a member of a non-profit club have if they believe it has been hijacked and the current management no longer complies with the club's founding documents? Whinge about it like a beaten up pussy?

 

 

 

has anyone ever sued a club to require it to run more racing, in accordance with its articles of membership or incorporation or whatever is its foundational document?

Really Clean? That would accomplish a lot. Piss off everyone and make the club spend money on lawyers. They will all look at you and say, "what are you doing to promote racing?"

 

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Blaming the poorer, less powerful members is always a smart move for the future.

 

You left out the part where none of the younger members ever tried to actually get on the board and run anything, but just biatched about all the free work done by the old guys ;)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

After about the 5th year in a row of begging someone - anyone - blind crippled or crazy - to either help or take over one tends to say "Fuck it, if they wanted a say in how the club runs they would show up and help".

 

Blaming the poorer, less powerful members is always a smart move for the future.

 

You left out the part where none of the younger members ever tried to actually get on the board and run anything, but just biatched about all the free work done by the old guys ;)

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

its like 'color'

No..it's like bollocks...you got it wrong but can't bring yourself to admit it...

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

Blaming the poorer, less powerful members is always a smart move for the future.

 

You left out the part where none of the younger members ever tried to actually get on the board and run anything, but just biatched about all the free work done by the old guys ;)

 

No !! He is blaming the younger people that won't get involved in the leadership. Hey, i was guilty of this. I did not want to be an officer or be on the board and go to meetings as a 20 - 30 something, But then you begin to realize that you have to give back to the sport if you want it to survive and thrive. The reason the youngsters have no power is because they aren't involved in the leadership.

 

Mr McCarthy hit the nail on the head about restaurants. I must respectfully disagree about pools. We need pools to cool off after after sailing in the summer in the south and it helps attract younger people.

 

Message is : you don't get to bitch if you're not willing to do the work

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

there is also this little problem of costs for waterfront property and related expenses. Last I checked we were paying property taxes on an appraised value of nearing 10 figures and insurance after a couple of hurricanes isn't so cheap. The place can't survive simply as a sailing club. It is effectively a country club/beach club/boat club/restaurant because that can attract enough members in total to cover expenses. As a sailing club, knickerbocker anyone?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Any club that has the means and expertise to provide for self sufficient recurrent income, irrespective of the source, and that in turn subsidises sailing is surely a good thing and guarantees the longevity of the club. It takes the pressure off membership dues as a principal source of income. It can also provide for resources that are ordinarily undertaken voluntarily, but for whatever reason become more difficult to procure. However there is a valid argument that business approach does have a negative impact in terms of diminished member camaraderie.

 

The wheels however start to fall of that trolley very quickly when they either forget about that sailing subsidy concept and or what ever is embarked upon commercialy cannot be financially sustained or properly managed.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

My club charges a membership fee which is fairly modest. Activities Ie racing are extra as is storage in the dinghy park. Costs are capped for an individual or family as the most active members are the ones helping with running the club as well. Most people accept the structure but everyone would like to pay less.

Every event/regatta has a budget and is reported to main committee. All income and costs are accounted for and we will only host events which at least break even. The income in the bar is a bonus for the club

Simple really

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

CLUB EVOLUTION

  • They are founded because while the sailors can afford a boat, each cannot own waterfront property to sail their boats from. They pool their resources together so that they have access to the water.
  • A shelter sounds like a good idea, so they build a clubhouse, commonly with restrooms.
  • Basic needs of life are added, food and beverage.
  • As the original group ages, they continue to make good money and no longer wish to row out to their boats at anchorage. They build docks to moor their boats at.
  • Over time as the original members age and no longer sail, the remain in charge and change the focus to their current needs. A place to hang out and drink some swill. Because they were successful early in age to own boats, they are very comfortable financially speaking in retirement and want first class facilities. Renovations occur, building additions occur, other things get added - trap shooting, swimming pool, tennis courts, and most importantly running a gourmet restaurant.....that is available only to members (there are not enough patrons of this restaurant to support it).

By this time the original purpose of the club has vanished, it is no longer access to the waterfront for boat owners who cannot afford waterfront property. The expenses of a full facility operations dwarfs the costs of just having some place to tie a dinghy to.

 

For a club to be successful in sailing, it must resist the restaurant addition. It must resist "other activities" that are not boating related. It must resist tennis courts and swimming pools. To provide for a place to have access to the water, the members must have the money to operate their boats, not operate a retirement home.

Club then raises initiation fees, dues, and gives every member an assessment to pay for the renovations, pool, and dining room. Younger, active sailors/races can no longer afford their membership and club dwindles to an adult day care center for the dawdling, drooling motorized wheelchair set.

Why does this sound so familiar? When someone says to Great Red Shark, "You kids today!" things have gone terribly awry.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Someone above pointed out correctly that the only way to make money on regattas is to use lots of volunteers.

 

Our club recently hosted both the Opti and Thistle nationals (and was glad to do so), but each event took upward of 50 unpaid volunteers to run.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

has anyone ever sued a club to require it to run more racing, in accordance with its articles of membership or incorporation or whatever is its foundational document?

Eff you Clean. This is the exact reason AYC and other prestigious clubs want nothing to do with you and your shenanigans.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

Blaming the poorer, less powerful members is always a smart move for the future.

 

You left out the part where none of the younger members ever tried to actually get on the board and run anything, but just biatched about all the free work done by the old guys ;)

 

You are fundamentally detrimental to every aspect of sailing in its entirety. Aside from the Clean Cast... But then again I'm not sure when Podcasts were reintroduced into modern technology.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Have any clubs tried using member costs to encourage participation? For example, increasing member dues but offsetting with "credits" earned through regatts or events? I'd like to see more people sailing their boats and less using it as a cheap storage facility.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

this discussion always ends in the same place...

 

one group telling another group how they should run _their_ club

 

how about everybody just worry about their own club?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

I'm just talking about regular local weekend racing.

i don't think most clubs send out a bill for "regular local weekend racing"

 

it's included in the dues

 

so i'm not sure how they could book a profit from regular racing

 

when they host regattas, that's a different matter - i think they try to break even on the costs with the registration fees, anything else is a bonus,

 

Our club charges for our own internal weeked race.. Say the doublehand series. 3-4 races per season. Used to get 4-5 boats.

They started charging about $20/race recently. Now they get zero boats.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

Blaming the poorer, less powerful members is always a smart move for the future.

 

 

You left out the part where none of the younger members ever tried to actually get on the board and run anything, but just biatched about all the free work done by the old guys ;)

 

No !! He is blaming the younger people that won't get involved in the leadership. Hey, i was guilty of this. I did not want to be an officer or be on the board and go to meetings as a 20 - 30 something, But then you begin to realize that you have to give back to the sport if you want it to survive and thrive. The reason the youngsters have no power is because they aren't involved in the leadership.

 

Mr McCarthy hit the nail on the head about restaurants. I must respectfully disagree about pools. We need pools to cool off after after sailing in the summer in the south and it helps attract younger people.

 

Message is : you don't get to bitch if you're not willing to do the work

 

Amen. Nothing better than a dunk in the pool after a long day on the water. racing or crusing.

Ive tried like hell to get alot of younger people (30-40's) involved on boards and committees over the years. they dont seem interested in general.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Never heard of a club that tries to use racing as a profit center, although many look at racing as fuel for the revenue engine. Our club racing is funded entirely by dues. Our small one-design regattas break even and big ones that attract a lot of entries and great sponsors sometimes make a profit - but not always. Our first goal is to give the sailors a good time, and our second goal is to not lose too much.

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Never heard of a club that tries to use racing as a profit center, although many look at racing as fuel for the revenue engine. Our club racing is funded entirely by dues. Our small one-design regattas break even and big ones that attract a lot of entries and great sponsors sometimes make a profit - but not always. Our first goal is to give the sailors a good time, and our second goal is to not lose too much.

 

 

 

[pedantic/] can we sort out the terminology a little here, pretty much every regatta is treated as a profit center, it doesn't mean that the club tries to make a profit, it means that the club hands off the regatta to a separate committee who are responsible for the revenues and costs of the regatta. The club can also set a goal--- break even, don't loose more that $xk, make at least $yk. (the committee can and maybe do argue about how to account for bar revenue during the event)

For many clubs regular racing is a cost center, the costs are paid for out of regular club revenue , and any fees are either used to buy trophies or just thrown in the regular club revenue stream.

The terms cost center and profit center don't have any bearing on whether the event is expected to make a profit or not, they just describe how the accounts are done. A profit center that makes a loss or breaks even is still a profit center. A cost center can never make a profit or loss, its just a budget line which collect costs.

[/pedantic]

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Soon after Davis Island Yacht Club in Tampa, Florida finally got a pool, the pool maintenance guy complained that sailors were washing their sails in it and clogging up the filters.

The club manager fixed that.

He hired a different pool guy.

Hey, there are some clubs that really do promote sailing.

Decent bar, too.

Dave Ellis

Tampa Bay, Florida

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

has anyone ever sued a club to require it to run more racing, in accordance with its articles of membership or incorporation or whatever is its foundational document?

 

Really Clean? That would accomplish a lot. Piss off everyone and make the club spend money on lawyers. They will all look at you and say, "what are you doing to promote racing?"

It's about the international accolades, and nameplates on tropies. Who cares if it makes you a pariah, and loathed across entire continents. Sheesh.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now

Sign in to follow this