Shortforbob

Guitar Player Anarchy

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On 4/11/2020 at 8:41 AM, Al Paca said:

I play drums. But I watch a lot of   These things. This one is great. What’s a 1/2 way decent acoustic guitar to start with? Used ok ?

Any solid top Yamaha... around $400. Spend another $100 to have it set up right and you're in business. 

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I scored this amp (free) and it probably has a minor ele issue.
I've read it is a good little amp. Is it going to be worth it to get someone to fix it?

20200901_143500.thumb.jpg.f275c56d3bbe05917596973458c144a9.jpg

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32 minutes ago, Meat Wad said:

I scored this amp (free) and it probably has a minor ele issue.
I've read it is a good little amp. Is it going to be worth it to get someone to fix it?

20200901_143500.thumb.jpg.f275c56d3bbe05917596973458c144a9.jpg

Depends on how much it costs to fix it, and how much you like it's basic sound (or range of sounds).

I've had a couple of Peavey amps (not one of this model though) along with working with Peavey P.A. gear. It's generally robust but not particularly good sounding. To my ear, they are best suited for rock-n-roll or heavy metal, or something that really doesn't call for purity or clarity of tone. Your jazz / folk / classical friends will not be impressed...........

OTOH if you wanna play loud as fuck, this should do it.

;)

One of these, not all beat up, and working perfectly, should set you back about $130.  I used to go amp-hunting in the music and pawn shops, and saw all kinds of stuff but rarely anything really great for low bucks. I had a Peavey Deuce (head) that was great, but I ended up plugging it into Marshall speakers.

- DSK

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1 hour ago, Steam Flyer said:

Depends on how much it costs to fix it, and how much you like it's basic sound (or range of sounds).

I've had a couple of Peavey amps (not one of this model though) along with working with Peavey P.A. gear. It's generally robust but not particularly good sounding. To my ear, they are best suited for rock-n-roll or heavy metal, or something that really doesn't call for purity or clarity of tone. Your jazz / folk / classical friends will not be impressed...........

OTOH if you wanna play loud as fuck, this should do it.

;)

One of these, not all beat up, and working perfectly, should set you back about $130.  I used to go amp-hunting in the music and pawn shops, and saw all kinds of stuff but rarely anything really great for low bucks. I had a Peavey Deuce (head) that was great, but I ended up plugging it into Marshall speakers.

- DSK

there's nothing special about the peavy's ...  if there is an issue, it's usually a bad solder joint or broken solder line on the circuit board..    the one thing the the peavy solid state amps do well  is "loud"   about the best thing you can do with it is get a  amp emulator pedal to get the tone you want and use it as a power amp.    

wcep2t85uhrihvc4cvpr.jpg

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1 minute ago, Grande Mastere Dreade said:

there's nothing special about the peavy's ...  if there is an issue, it's usually a bad solder joint or broken solder line on the circuit board..    the one thing the the peavy solid state amps do well  is "loud"   about the best thing you can do with it is get a  amp emulator pedal to get the tone you want and use it as a power amp.    

wcep2t85uhrihvc4cvpr.jpg

This was back in the 1970s, so if such things had been invented I would not have heard of them yet anyway.

The Deuce sounded good enough to get me interested in playing better, and in different types of music that weren't just really loud buzzing at different cycles. After a few years I ended up with a Roland JC-77 which was infinitely more portable, almost as loud, does LOUD BUZZ!! equally well plus a lot more different sweeter tones. Problem, it has some inner magic shit that apparently is not available any more, and may be a casualty. Dropping it off at the amp doctor next week. Should I limp along on my small Vox or think about a replacement?

I don't have a dog in the household any more so my playing REALLY LOUD has taken a bigger part lately. OTOH maybe now is the time to get another dog?

- DSK

 

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Definitely get a dog. Better for your ears and your soul.

I spend a lot more happy time with my Ridgeback than with my old Roland Cube 60. Surprisingly great-sounding little amp, I use the Blackface model and a few pedals and I'm satisfied. Sold my vintage Boogie last year and don't really miss it.

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get one of these: and you'll live happily ever after. 

https://www.marble-amps.com/amps/vintage/clubreverb/

 

i have a bluebird from them, and had a Max, for guitar. still regret I sold it... these amps are so dynamically responsive that it really means you have to focus on how you play. but if you want to know how to use volume from your fingers, this amp does it all. 

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1 hour ago, JMOD said:

get one of these: and you'll live happily ever after. 

https://www.marble-amps.com/amps/vintage/clubreverb/

 

i have a bluebird from them, and had a Max, for guitar. still regret I sold it... these amps are so dynamically responsive that it really means you have to focus on how you play. but if you want to know how to use volume from your fingers, this amp does it all. 

wow they go up to 12, must be really loud..

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10 hours ago, EquusAsinusDomesticus said:

This is a great video!

That two rock is absolutely insane...

I had a 72 marshall bluesbreaker that was beautiful but no pre amp so too loud to get the good tone.

 

the little 5 watt silvertone  is a little beat up..  I picked up a little 20wt silvertone by sammick  for cabinet parts... it's got a little 6" speaker, but this little fucker rocks for a solid state and loud, can't imagine the sound on some of those beasts they're playing (btw in the video the upper right corner in the back of the room there's a sound level meter watch some of the numbers it hits.. )  

so i've decided i'm going to take the little SS silvertone and make it a head unit and make a cab with 10"-12"  speaker in it..  i have mesa v-twin tube preamp pedal i'll run into it and use it as a power amp .. the unit will be about the size of a 6 pack of beer in cans..

 

btw if anyone is looking to source some cheap ass amps..  look here  https://www.shopgoodwill.com/Listings?st=&sg=&c=466&s=&lp=0&hp=999999&sbn=False&spo=False&snpo=False&socs=False&sd=False&sca=False&caed=8/23/2020 12:00:00 AM&cadb=7&scs=False&sis=False&col=1&p=1&ps=40&desc=false&ss=0&UseBuyerPrefs=true]

 

 

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Any Epiphone enthusiasts out here?

My daughter's got a 1970s Epi Crestwood (made in Japan)

She wants to upgrade

I've got this early 60's Epiphone olympic at home.

Exactly like this one but mines complete . (I don't play, It's one left from her Dads Collection)

nb1e.jpg

Mines in really good condition, a couple of small chips on the headstock.

Anyone know if this is likely to sound better than the 70's Crestwood?

 

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4 hours ago, Shortforbob said:

Any Epiphone enthusiasts out here?

My daughter's got a 1970s Epi Crestwood (made in Japan)

She wants to upgrade

I've got this early 60's Epiphone olympic at home.

Exactly like this one but mines complete . (I don't play, It's one left from her Dads Collection)

nb1e.jpg

Mines in really good condition, a couple of small chips on the headstock.

Anyone know if this is likely to sound better than the 70's Crestwood?

 

Whoa, let me start with stating that both of these are not only good guitars but collectables!

While your Olympic is a straight little (Punk) rocker, the Crestwood is more versatile in tone and musical styles - pretty much everything from Blues to Rock and even Jazz. Also, while the Olympic models seem to be made by Gibson, the MiJ Crestwood is also made from quality parts and has excellent build quality.

So, while not necessarily an upgrade, the Crestwood would add a different, sharper voice to your daughter's arsenal. Always depending on the style of music she wants to play.

If they were mine, I would give them both a nice set up, fret work and nut if needed, and just play them. :) 

 

That said, can you elaborate what she is missing from her Crestwood?

Gregor Hilden demos Epiphone Crestwood [YouTube]

 

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10 minutes ago, Grog said:

Whoa, let me start with stating that both of these are not only good guitars but collectables!

While your Olympic is a straight little (Punk) rocker, the Crestwood is more versatile in tone and musical styles - pretty much everything from Blues to Rock and even Jazz. Also, while the Olympic models seem to be made by Gibson, the MiJ Crestwood is also made from quality parts and has excellent build quality.

So, while not necessarily an upgrade, the Crestwood would add a different, sharper voice to your daughter's arsenal. Always depending on the style of music she wants to play.

If they were mine, I would give them both a nice set up, fret work and nut if needed, and just play them. :) 

 

That said, can you elaborate what she is missing from her Crestwood?

 

nah you misunderstand, the photo Olympic is off the internet (it's missing the bridge) but I have exactly the same at home totally original (except someones put 70's knobs on it)

Her Crestwood is a 70's made in japan Epi also totally intact. It was her dads first  guitar.

I think she's just musing getting a vintage one. Her Dad had 8-10  of em (Old Epis) but the Olympic is the last one left and I was thinking of giving it to her.

I always thought the 70's Japanese instruments were inferior? 

(I suppose a 70's guitar IS vintage now :( 

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10 minutes ago, Shortforbob said:

nah you misunderstand, the photo Olympic is off the internet (it's missing the bridge) but I have exactly the same at home totally original (except someones put 70's knobs on it)

Her Crestwood is a 70's made in japan Epi also totally intact. It was her dads first  guitar.

I think she's just musing getting a vintage one. Her Dad had 8-10  of em (Old Epis) but the Olympic is the last one left and I was thinking of giving it to her.

I always thought the 70's Japanese instruments were inferior? 

(I suppose a 70's guitar IS vintage now :( 

I understand that picture is not your guitar. :)

The "(Punk) rocker" was aimed at the sounds you get out of that lone single coil pickup at the bridge position, it's pretty much in your face and not as warm or round sounding as a neck pickup.

With getting a setup I mean this: I have been buying old and used cheap guitars for a couple of years now. Most of those were not looked after or well set up and it somehow became a hobby for me to do exactly that. It is quite amazing just how good sounding and playing these cheapos can get when they get some of the attention usually reserved for the $3k+ range!

The Japanese instruments from that time are actually mostly excellent as the woods and hardware are pretty much the same and the people have been known as outstanding craftsmen for centuries. (Cars had yet to catch up but were already on their way. Photo cameras, anyone?)

 

That said, guitars and guitarists are a never ending story. If she just wants "something vintage" both instruments are fine, just a little different in tonal capabilities (which is why many players hoard a lot of different guitars). If she actually wants to upgrade to a more modern instrument with less beefy necks and more modern hardware and maybe sounds, that's a different thing altogether.

 

And yeah, good 70s guitars are already following the insane prices asked for 60s and 50s gear. One point being: the wood they were built from is gone, so if you want certain woods or wood quality, you are bound to the vintage gear although the build quality varied A LOT back then.

 

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24 minutes ago, Grog said:

I understand that picture is not your guitar. :)

The "(Punk) rocker" was aimed at the sounds you get out of that lone single coil pickup at the bridge position, it's pretty much in your face and not as warm or round sounding as a neck pickup.

With getting a setup I mean this: I have been buying old and used cheap guitars for a couple of years now. Most of those were not looked after or well set up and it somehow became a hobby for me to do exactly that. It is quite amazing just how good sounding and playing these cheapos can get when they get some of the attention usually reserved for the $3k+ range!

The Japanese instruments from that time are actually mostly excellent as the woods and hardware are pretty much the same and the people have been known as outstanding craftsmen for centuries. (Cars had yet to catch up but were already on their way. Photo cameras, anyone?)

 

That said, guitars and guitarists are a never ending story. If she just wants "something vintage" both instruments are fine, just a little different in tonal capabilities (which is why many players hoard a lot of different guitars). If she actually wants to upgrade to a more modern instrument with less beefy necks and more modern hardware and maybe sounds, that's a different thing altogether.

 

And yeah, good 70s guitars are already following the insane prices asked for 60s and 50s gear. One point being: the wood they were built from is gone, so if you want certain woods or wood quality, you are bound to the vintage gear although the build quality varied A LOT back then.

 

Thank you, I'll tell her that unless she has ambitions to emulate Joan Jet, to stick with the Crestwood :D

She's just a beginner.

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21 hours ago, Shortforbob said:
21 hours ago, Grog said:

And yeah, good 70s guitars are already following the insane prices asked for 60s and 50s gear. One point being: the wood they were built from is gone, so if you want certain woods or wood quality, you are bound to the vintage gear although the build quality varied A LOT back then.

 

Thank you, I'll tell her that unless she has ambitions to emulate Joan Jet, to stick with the Crestwood :D

She's just a beginner.

Yep, the 1970s was a long time ago... doesn't seem like it, does it?

A set-up by a good guitar technician is not expensive and it will make the guitar play & sound WORLDS better, if it is "off" in any of the many ways guitars get out of kilter. Does it tune up easily? Is it in tune for open chords, but out of tune when you play that rock star stuff way up high? Strings buzz some times? Strings really difficult to push down, notes dull, or cut your finger to fret?

It's also possible it's been played enough now to need re fretting. Rub your fingernail backwards along the frets, that is, crossways to the neck. A slight "dent" in the fret is OK as long as the note at that fret still ring out clear, but if it feels like a cut or a notch then it needs to be replaced. More expensive than a set-up but worth it.

This things are easy to fix, can helps the guitar's "sound" tremendously, and make it a heck of a lot more fun to play.

Amp.... a good amp makes a big difference! Some are very flexible in what they can do, most only do one type of sound really well. These days I am using a ZT Lunchbox which is the most flexible amp I've heard in a long time. My Roland JC77 is in the shop and may be a casualty of old age. The amp is one of the few things I can think of, where getting the same thing as the artist you are trying to sound like, will work out.

- DSK

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I gave her the Olympic today. She likes the feel and the weight and the easy access to the higher frets.

sent her a couple of links to people playing one and a link to "the passenger" to get her started right :D

 

She's got a good tutor, starting her off on blues..she's doing claptons Hey hey on the Crestwood.

She's also found a not to expensive luthier to make any adjustments.

It's nice these old guitars are finally getting played.

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4 hours ago, Shortforbob said:

I gave her the Olympic today. She likes the feel and the weight and the easy access to the higher frets.

sent her a couple of links to people playing one and a link to "the passenger" to get her started right :D

 

She's got a good tutor, starting her off on blues..she's doing claptons Hey hey on the Crestwood.

She's also found a not to expensive luthier to make any adjustments.

It's nice these old guitars are finally getting played.

Excellent!  They say it's the journey not the destination. That's a lie, there is no destination there is only the journey.

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My 1962 Epiphone Howard Roberts with a Johnny Smith pickup at the end of the fingerboard is a great guitar, she finishes your thoughts for you.  She's the black one on the right.

Steve guitars.jpg

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9 hours ago, Steam Flyer said:

 

A set-up by a good guitar technician is not expensive and it will make the guitar play & sound WORLDS better, if it is "off" in any of the many ways guitars get out of kilter. Does it tune up easily? Is it in tune for open chords, but out of tune when you play that rock star stuff way up high? Strings buzz some times? Strings really difficult to push down, notes dull, or cut your finger to fret?

 

- DSK

 

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3 hours ago, #13 said:

My 1962 Epiphone Howard Roberts with a Johnny Smith pickup at the end of the fingerboard is a great guitar, she finishes your thoughts for you.  She's the black one on the right.

Steve guitars.jpg

Love the Howard Roberts

That sunburst Les Paul looks a lot nicer than chopped liver, too

- DSK

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The sunburst fretless p-bass has me thinking of picking up another bass. That's really sweet. 

 

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This is so frustrating.  I used to be able to make music on the guitar that didn't make cats on a fence squeal.  Hoping to get that back I built several guitars, Strats, Teles, Mac bass and even an acoustic.  I've put those guitars in capable hands and they sound great.  About the best I can do is a well tuned E chord. 

Is this the reality of getting old?  Cuz if it is, it sucks.

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Fook, Jules, I feel the pain. I was a "Professional" musician for a huge part of my life before I was 22 or so (very long ago) .  Got gigs sight-reading jazz bits, rock-n-roll, etc.. + my own band. I had the chops. 

Do ya think I can remember the 300+ cover tunes I knew? Nope. A little tiny bit of each, but cannot go all the way thru. 

I have to learn each one again. Sux totally. (Although I've found I can still read bass parts in real notation. Tab sucks beyond belief..... So I got that going for me....)

 

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9 hours ago, Jules said:

This is so frustrating.  I used to be able to make music on the guitar that didn't make cats on a fence squeal.  Hoping to get that back I built several guitars, Strats, Teles, Mac bass and even an acoustic.  I've put those guitars in capable hands and they sound great.  About the best I can do is a well tuned E chord. 

Is this the reality of getting old?  Cuz if it is, it sucks.

Well, patience is supposed to be one of the things you gain.

I think you should blame your amp.

On a more serious note, I've lost a lot of strength and reach, so now I do hand exercises & stretches.

- DSK

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10 hours ago, gptyk said:

Fook, Jules, I feel the pain. I was a "Professional" musician for a huge part of my life before I was 22 or so (very long ago) .  Got gigs sight-reading jazz bits, rock-n-roll, etc.. + my own band. I had the chops. 

Do ya think I can remember the 300+ cover tunes I knew? Nope. A little tiny bit of each, but cannot go all the way thru. 

I have to learn each one again. Sux totally. (Although I've found I can still read bass parts in real notation. Tab sucks beyond belief..... So I got that going for me....)

Thanks.  I was starting to wonder if I had some sort of disorder, other than what normally comes with aging.  That's a disorder I can accept.

1 hour ago, Steam Flyer said:

I think you should blame your amp.

I tried that but then realized I was playing an acoustic.

On a more serious note, when I switched from the acoustic (built from Martin OM plans), I switched to one of the Strats.  The smaller neck made things easier.  And that reminded me I never fine-tuned the neck on the acoustic.  I left it somewhat fat, planning to get back to it later.  That never happened.  It's so much easier to procrastinate.  :rolleyes:

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I’m the resident drummer here. Been just messing around on my own for about 10 years now. Finally hooked up with 2 guitarists and a bass player. Had a couple of jam sessions playing Dead, Neil Young covers and a few other things. What I thought was a safe place to play in, the back of my shop, sort of an enclosed car port-room for 2+ cars that after loading in all the amps, pedal boards, PA and mike stands there was not so much social distance room. Masks were sometimes on, sometimes off for singing.  So I’ve called it off. Question: Anybody in here playing with other people at this time?  

I’m so bummed. We played a killer “rocking in the free world “

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6 hours ago, Al Paca said:

I’m the resident drummer here. Been just messing around on my own for about 10 years now. Finally hooked up with 2 guitarists and a bass player. Had a couple of jam sessions playing Dead, Neil Young covers and a few other things. What I thought was a safe place to play in, the back of my shop, sort of an enclosed car port-room for 2+ cars that after loading in all the amps, pedal boards, PA and mike stands there was not so much social distance room. Masks were sometimes on, sometimes off for singing.  So I’ve called it off. Question: Anybody in here playing with other people at this time?  

I’m so bummed. We played a killer “rocking in the free world “

Nope

Yes it's an added risk. Could be worth it to you, depends on the other people of course. If they are taking very few risks and are safe to "bring inside your bubble" then it's very cool. I miss jamming with other musicians but right now I'm not risking it.

You didn't record, by any chance?

- DSK

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No recording. We played last Saturday. Sunday I said to myself next time I’ll record us. Monday had a long talk with Mrs Paca and she voiced her concerns about the marginal social distancing.  For her safety (and mine) on Tuesday I canceled all future jam sessions.  The three of them are still meeting once a week. 

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We had a jam Monday. We were scheduled to play outdoors at a BBQ joint last Friday and had to back out (a friend took the show) as our other guitarist/singer had a show in New Braunfels with Kat Hasty. Here they are doing one of Kat's originals. 

 

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On 10/9/2020 at 11:20 AM, Al Paca said:

I’m the resident drummer here. Been just messing around on my own for about 10 years now. Finally hooked up with 2 guitarists and a bass player. Had a couple of jam sessions playing Dead, Neil Young covers and a few other things. What I thought was a safe place to play in, the back of my shop, sort of an enclosed car port-room for 2+ cars that after loading in all the amps, pedal boards, PA and mike stands there was not so much social distance room. Masks were sometimes on, sometimes off for singing.  So I’ve called it off. Question: Anybody in here playing with other people at this time?  

I’m so bummed. We played a killer “rocking in the free world “

One of my two bands is still practicing.  We have a very large practice studio, large enough that we can be 10' apart when singing, and we sing toward the end of the room, not towards each other.  There are no gigs at the moment, but this band is just developing its repertoire and we are hoping that things will be better by next summer if a vaccine shows up.   The other band already has its repertoire so it will just be a month of practice to get it back once the coast is clear.  

In my area (Vancouver Island, population 870K) we have been lucky so far - but cases started creeping up a little in the last couple of days.  We now have 22 active cases on the Island - three days ago we had 8.  BC itself has now entered the third wave due to some unfortunate behaviour by neanderthals on the mainland.

If we notice a big uptick in cases we will stop practicing.  One of the group members is an aesthetician and therefore a risk due to one-on-one contact daily.

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On 10/9/2020 at 10:01 PM, Al Paca said:

No recording. We played last Saturday. Sunday I said to myself next time I’ll record us. Monday had a long talk with Mrs Paca and she voiced her concerns about the marginal social distancing.  For her safety (and mine) on Tuesday I canceled all future jam sessions.  The three of them are still meeting once a week. 

The problem that I have is that all the other musicians I know, nearby, are not living in a way that I want to invite them into my bubble. They go visit grandkids, shop at Walmart every other day, etc etc. A few people here have gotten sick and there are a couple of deaths that might have been CoviD-19 related. I'm not at particularly high risk myself but I don't play with matches either.

However, we did have a neighborhood "talent show." Picnic shelter, outdoors, masks, social distancing. Fuck I could have used my big amp and done it from my house. In fact more people probably would have heard me! But this is me, ignoring the written music.......

https://scontent-iad3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/124714262_368082974293524_6338006536845296849_n.jpg?_nc_cat=106&ccb=2&_nc_sid=b9115d&_nc_ohc=Y3CX7dQw3swAX8Gl1TS&_nc_ht=scontent-iad3-1.xx&oh=1516f26f836e720cc960b03d1cb73adf&oe=5FD1DE1D

That doesn't seem to be producing a pic, sorry

- DSK

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Exactly. I go to the market, once in a while the drug store and hardware store. That’s it.  Who knows where my band mates were going. And with Mrs Paca  immune compromised / cancer survivor just not worth taking a chance. I really miss making music though. We were getting tight. 

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Question for the experienced - when tabbing something, or describing a chord progression when would you say G# and when would you use Ab?  I'm sure the answer is "it depends on the scale you're in" or something like that.  So then two questions!  First - which one of these is correct -  Ab A E  or  G# A E (I'm pretty sure it's the first one, just want clarification).  And second what's a good beginner music theory study guide/YouTube source.  There's too many to choose from.  

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Weather it's notated as a sharp of flat depends on the (current) key of the song. 

The term y'all are looking for is "Circle of Fifths"  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Circle_of_fifths and I'm sure that there's a billion videos out there for it. 

Defines the standard nomenclature for each key. 

"Evil Woman" by ELO. Am, G, F, repeat endlessly. (Also, the end of Stairway to Heaven and a billion other classics. Hits Am a lot. Never play a sharp or flat - the key is Am. (Same as C major in terms of what notes are sharp/flat)

"Jessica" Allman Brothers, A major (IIRC, and there's a solo part pretty much in D major) So if you were writing out music for it, A major has the first three sharps. Gflat/Fsharp major is a crapshoot. 

 

 

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We've had a uptick in Covid, so shut down playing a couple of weeks ago. Depressing. It's really hard on our drummer, as it was the biggest thing he's got. 

19 hours ago, Leeroy Jenkins said:

Question for the experienced - when tabbing something, or describing a chord progression when would you say G# and when would you use Ab?  I'm sure the answer is "it depends on the scale you're in" or something like that.  So then two questions!  First - which one of these is correct -  Ab A E  or  G# A E (I'm pretty sure it's the first one, just want clarification).  And second what's a good beginner music theory study guide/YouTube source.  There's too many to choose from.  

If you're dealing with guitarists, it doesn't matter which you call it, unless you tell them E# or B#.....

 

 

 

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3 hours ago, Cruisin Loser said:

If you're dealing with guitarists, it doesn't matter which you call it

Thanks, I kind of figured.  I was looking at two tabs for the same song and that was the only difference.  Wanted to know if one was more right.  

 

3 hours ago, Cruisin Loser said:

unless you tell them E# or B#

I knew there was no semitone between B and C and between E and F.  I don't know why though.  Or much else about theory.  That circle of fifths thing seems to pop up fairly often so maybe I'll read up on it.  It's just too much fun just playing music.  

 

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On 11/30/2020 at 9:26 PM, Leeroy Jenkins said:

Question for the experienced - when tabbing something, or describing a chord progression when would you say G# and when would you use Ab?  I'm sure the answer is "it depends on the scale you're in" or something like that.  So then two questions!  First - which one of these is correct -  Ab A E  or  G# A E (I'm pretty sure it's the first one, just want clarification).  And second what's a good beginner music theory study guide/YouTube source.  There's too many to choose from.  

Leeroy,

  i find the easiest way to know the sharps & flats in a key is to remember that there are never the same letter (A-G)  twice in a key.

 meaning all keys have an  A B C D E F G.

  The key of C Major is easy, no sharps or flats.

  the next key (clockwise in the circle of 5ths) is G Major with one sharp.  So start with G and write the letters out,  G A B C D E F.

   Next you have to remember that a Major key has an interval pattern,  2 Whole steps, 1 half step, 3 whole steps, 1 half.  or W W H W W W H.

   So start w G,  whole step to A, whole to B, half to C, whole to D, whole to E, whole to (either F# or Gb), half to G (next octave)

    So since you can't have a G and Gb in the key, (same letter) the proper denotation for writing the key is to use F#.

Make sense?

 

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1 hour ago, Raked Aft\\ said:

Leeroy,

  i find the easiest way to know the sharps & flats in a key is to remember that there are never the same letter (A-G)  twice in a key.

 meaning all keys have an  A B C D E F G.

  The key of C Major is easy, no sharps or flats.

  the next key (clockwise in the circle of 5ths) is G Major with one sharp.  So start with G and write the letters out,  G A B C D E F.

   Next you have to remember that a Major key has an interval pattern,  2 Whole steps, 1 half step, 3 whole steps, 1 half.  or W W H W W W H.

   So start w G,  whole step to A, whole to B, half to C, whole to D, whole to E, whole to (either F# or Gb), half to G (next octave)

    So since you can't have a G and Gb in the key, (same letter) the proper denotation for writing the key is to use F#.

Make sense?

 

This makes some sense, it's very similar to an explanation I was given last year.

Before the pandemic, I was lucky enough to be practicing music with a retired lady pianist with a doctorate in music. I'd written out a chord progression with the same kind of muddle, IIRC both a G flat and a G sharp. She said it would go by the scale interval, and avoid writing the same note's sharp or flat in the same measures. So your example above would use an F#.

But she also said "There's really no rule other than to try and be clear for the musician reading your score." For example we have a number of songs where the music goes down a half step then back up a half, for emphasis. Best example I can think of off the top of my head is the 'Ba-bump' at the end of the measure in 'I Put A Spell On You' (everybody knows that one, right), apparently they don't do this is classical music.

I'm weak on theory and appreciate this discussion, thanks!

- DSK

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6 hours ago, Raked Aft\\ said:

Leeroy,

  i find the easiest way to know the sharps & flats in a key is to remember that there are never the same letter (A-G)  twice in a key.

 meaning all keys have an  A B C D E F G.

  The key of C Major is easy, no sharps or flats.

  the next key (clockwise in the circle of 5ths) is G Major with one sharp.  So start with G and write the letters out,  G A B C D E F.

   Next you have to remember that a Major key has an interval pattern,  2 Whole steps, 1 half step, 3 whole steps, 1 half.  or W W H W W W H.

   So start w G,  whole step to A, whole to B, half to C, whole to D, whole to E, whole to (either F# or Gb), half to G (next octave)

    So since you can't have a G and Gb in the key, (same letter) the proper denotation for writing the key is to use F#.

Make sense?

 

Makes sense.  Thanks.  Especially the interval pattern.  Something that can be memorized and counted on and explored endlessly. 

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18 hours ago, Leeroy Jenkins said:

Makes sense.  Thanks.  Especially the interval pattern.  Something that can be memorized and counted on and explored endlessly. 

Particularly on guitar. It's the same fingering each time if you don't use open strings. Learn to play a A Maj scale starting on the 5th fret of the low E string. Now you wanna play a Bflat major? Just move it up one fret. Cmaj? start at the 8th fret.  Now you can play every major scale there is. Repeat for minor, dorian, etc..... 

Unlike keys, horns, etc... where you need to understand which note is which. (well, keys are kinda interval, but it's not muscle memory like guitar as a Cmaj scale is easy (just the white keys) where a Amaj has those fiddly black keys involved now)

 

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On 12/2/2020 at 7:38 AM, Steam Flyer said:

"There's really no rule other than to try and be clear for the musician reading your score."

I don't know but I've been told that a big part of the motivation for music "spelling" conventions is to make "[at first] sight reading" easier.

Until recently, copying out or publishing and transmitting written musical scores was slow and expensive. In the modern period big ensembles / orchestras and the idea that music should be played the same way and as written became idealized. Getting printed music to musicians so they could familiarize themselves with it was hard. So, the skill of producing musical performances as written from the score at first sight became important. Sight reading is kinda magical to watch but maybe it's less critical these days? Still, following the conventions may make it easier for folks who are familiar with them to read a score.

I have a feeling that there are other dialects than the traditional one in use. eg. House of the Rising Sun might be written in 6/8, 12/8, triplet-ed, etc depending on both how you want it to sound and how the players expect to see that written? Or not. This is even further above my pay grade than my last post. Happy to be corrected and educated though :) 

 

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I’ve always used ‘Fakebooks’ for sight reading if/when necessary. On the piano, your left hand follows the guitar charts and the right hand uses the lead treble melody notation. 
 

Here’s a really cool modern version of the FakeBook concept. A lot of the charts are user generated so you get slightly different takes on some of the classics. You can toggle between classical notation, Jazz style charts, guitar/ukulele/piano etc. It even has beats and a player piano style playback that highlights the notes as you practice along.

As a 20 buck app for your I pad, it’s great value.

https://irealpro.com

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2 hours ago, weightless said:

I don't know but I've been told that a big part of the motivation for music "spelling" conventions is to make "[at first] sight reading" easier.

Until recently, copying out or publishing and transmitting written musical scores was slow and expensive. In the modern period big ensembles / orchestras and the idea that music should be played the same way and as written became idealized. Getting printed music to musicians so they could familiarize themselves with it was hard. So, the skill of producing musical performances as written from the score at first sight became important. Sight reading is kinda magical to watch but maybe it's less critical these days? Still, following the conventions may make it easier for folks who are familiar with them to read a score.

I have a feeling that there are other dialects than the traditional one in use. eg. House of the Rising Sun might be written in 6/8, 12/8, triplet-ed, etc depending on both how you want it to sound and how the players expect to see that written? Or not. This is even further above my pay grade than my last post. Happy to be corrected and educated though :) 

 

I'm far from an expert, and while I can still sight-read somewhat, it's been a long time since I've actively used the skill. 

But there are general conventions. Key signature defines flats or sharps (i.e. which side of the circle it's on) - and because Fmaj has an A, it's a Bflat, not an Asharp. (What RakedAft said). Accidentals are a different story, and sure, you could chart everything in Cmaj and use accidentals everywhere but that'd be almost unreadable. (Because if you're reading fast, you know what the scale is from looking at the key...)

Same for time sigs. There's a pretty much typical 'feel' for most time signatures. House of the Rising Sun would be notated as 6/8 99% of the time. Guess it could be 12/8, 3/4 or something wonky, but yup - it's much harder to read if so (particularly for bass or drums). 6/8 feels like, well, House of the Rising Sun. 3/4 feels like a waltz. (Queen - Somebody To Love would be an example) the difference being beat 4 in 6/8 isn't as pronounced as each downbeat in 3/4. And sure, you could chart House in 4/4 with triplets, but that'd be insane to read.  Really tough stuff I doubt there's a known 'feel' for some of these time signatures: Genesis: Turn It On Again or Fifth of Firth, half of all Rush songs, the great jazz stuff by Hank Levy, etc. 

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On 12/2/2020 at 10:20 AM, Raked Aft\\ said:

Leeroy,

  i find the easiest way to know the sharps & flats in a key is to remember that there are never the same letter (A-G)  twice in a key.

 meaning all keys have an  A B C D E F G.

  The key of C Major is easy, no sharps or flats.

  the next key (clockwise in the circle of 5ths) is G Major with one sharp.  So start with G and write the letters out,  G A B C D E F.

   Next you have to remember that a Major key has an interval pattern,  2 Whole steps, 1 half step, 3 whole steps, 1 half.  or W W H W W W H.

   So start w G,  whole step to A, whole to B, half to C, whole to D, whole to E, whole to (either F# or Gb), half to G (next octave)

    So since you can't have a G and Gb in the key, (same letter) the proper denotation for writing the key is to use F#.

Make sense?

 

found this today

aMxgbZP_460swp.webp

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