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Origami Boat Thread

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A place to discuss the technical aspects of their design and construction, as well as the exploits of origami boats directly with their builders/owners.

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i suspect you will have to convince Bob to post here or BS will just keep poluting Bob's project thread.

on the other hand, BS will just keep poluting Bob's project thread so nothing is gained here unless someone really is interested in discussing Origami, which - given the state of the original forum - does not appear to be the case so much.

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Great example of a method taking the "design" hostage. There is just no control over design options. It's like the resultant shape is an accident.

 

I like it when he says "what we thought was the transom has to be the bow."

" Let's flip a coin."

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I considered posting this in Bob Perry's "My New Project" thread when it drifted to origami and paper airplanes, however this topic is much better for this post.

 

Here's an idea for a boat designer where origami could possibly be the best construction method.

 

Relevant and brief back story: I volunteered and led an after school aviation club years ago and one thing we did was build tons of high quality paper airplanes. (We also built and launched model rockets until a couple of kids thought it would be funny to glue the nose cones in place and let them plummet back to earth like tiny scud missiles.)

 

The planes we assembled were called White Wings. www.whitewings.com They come in many different designs that explain a lot to kids learning about the principles of flight. They're simple, cheap, flat-packed, die cut paper planes basically.

 

I thought then, and still do, that a similar product focused on sailboats could work. In short, the hulls could be folded out, bulkheads folded out, deck taped on, simple rig installed etc. Ballast could be coins, rocks, whatever. They'll end up sailing out of reach, maybe use a biodegradable waxed paper? Of course developing and testing these details is a big project.

 

I drew a few of these with various rigs and keels, and have built a few scale models for multi-chine boats, but I didn't take it any further. Perhaps someone can do something with the idea. I looked around online just now and did not see any competing products.

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Lasal:

I tried to do a origami rowing skiff in alu. The problem was that I ended up needing way too many darts and cuts to get the shape I was after. The builder, Jim Betts, very good with alu, thought it would be impossible to deal with the shredded plate at the thickness I wanted. We got to the point where we considered an elaborate jig but that was defeating the entire purpose of the origami method. It was getting complex and expensive. I am not one to let a method or a technique dictate my shape design preferences. In the end Jody and I spent some fun late nights sharing the screen and playing with the idea. No boat but lots of crazy guy design fun.

pea%20fin%203_zpsbko2byqu.jpg

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Pano:

Exactly right. It can be done if you are as good as Jody at playing with surface modelling. My problem was it required far too many cuts and in the end this more or less defeated the purpose. The "Let's cut here and see what we get approach" would not work for me.

 

As Jody and I did it, I drew a set of lines and then Jody made it work with developed surfaces.

Perry%20Peener%20Peapod_zpskfm0lsc9.jpg

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Bob,

 

Sorry, I deleted my post while I was trying to edit it! (Clicked the wrong button and clicked yes to do you really want to delete it) :rolleyes:

 

 

Basically I was saying that to do it properly you had to be very good at maths and know what a developable surface is!

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Pano:

Exactly right. It can be done if you are as good as Jody at playing with surface modelling. My problem was it required far too many cuts and in the end this more or less defeated the purpose. The "Let's cut here and see what we get approach" would not work for me.

 

As Jody and I did it, I drew a set of lines and then Jody made it work with developed surfaces.

Perry%20Peener%20Peapod_zpskfm0lsc9.jpg

 

 

 

 

Yeah, that was a fun project and if we have any scrap Ti might have a closer look at it...

 

S57gZGi.png

 

If anyone could make it fair in metal. then Betts could.

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Lasal:

I tried to do a origami rowing skiff in alu. The problem was that I ended up needing way too many darts and cuts to get the shape I was after. The builder, Jim Betts, very good with alu, thought it would be impossible to deal with the shredded plate at the thickness I wanted. We got to the point where we considered an elaborate jig but that was defeating the entire purpose of the origami method. It was getting complex and expensive. I am not one to let a method or a technique dictate my shape design preferences. In the end Jody and I spent some fun late nights sharing the screen and playing with the idea. No boat but lots of crazy guy design fun.

pea%20fin%203_zpsbko2byqu.jpg

I recall seeing that design, very nice. Maybe you should still build it as a multi-chine alu boat. It would be great to come across a gorgeous pea pod sitting on the beach where you would expect wood but see rugged unpainted aluminum.

 

For tiny model boats where some kind of plasticized or waxed paper could stretch in a die cutter or press, maybe origami could work without driving the shape too much? It would also be great to see a pack of cheap model sailboats that kids could fold out in minutes in packages at the West Marine check-out counter. Grandfathers would buy tons of these.

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I remember seeing a method about 25 years ago, where an alu hull was built, then lowered into a full size concrete female mould, then filled with water. Then they set a bomb off inside the water which forced the alu into the mould perfectly leaving a nice fair alu hull. As a recall they thenglued all the stringers and bulkheads into place so as to not distort the hull shape.

 

The boats were 25-30ft I think, but I imagine it would be ideal if it worked for your dingy.

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lasal:

You might consider 4 mil mylar for your toy boats. It's quite stiff and durable. It would be easy to work with.

 

Alcy:

I think the skiff will have to wait until Jody gets his hands on some left over Ti. I'm a bit busy to even think about it these days. I will have another new design to spring on you in the next two weeks. I's good to be wanted.

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Yeah, that was a fun project and if we have any scrap Ti might have a closer look at it...

 

S57gZGi.png

 

If anyone could make it fair in metal. then Betts could.

 

Just to clarify, are you talking about building the boat in Ti? If so, bold. That boat will be around awhile.

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Sure, at $20/lb for CP2 grade it gets affordable. 3mm would still be a bit heavy for this little cockleshell and until we play around with the new welding rig that Betts has it seems that 3mm is about the limit. With some practice 2mm might come in at the desired weight. I haven't opened that file in a while, should dust it off. I've got the heavy art paper model I taped together here in my office but it has gotten pretty beat up. Let me find some photos of it in better days!

 

whqv9wF.png

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Ok, I'll bite. What is the advantage of 'origami' over a complete 'stitch and glue' type of boat? I'm used to thinking of these things in wood, but welding is essentially just glue for metal, so even Bob's row boat could be made from any flat stock. Seems like the guys at CLC (and others) have a bunch of plans and kits to make small boats, surely this idea can be scaled up, or simply built in metal instead? Likewise, scaled down and made from paper for models. Substitute a Waterjet machine for the CNC wood router, and a 'metal hot melt glue gun' (MIG) for epoxy, and there you go.

 

What am I missing?

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Sure, at $20/lb for CP2 grade it gets affordable. 3mm would still be a bit heavy for this little cockleshell and until we play around with the new welding rig that Betts has it seems that 3mm is about the limit. With some practice 2mm might come in at the desired weight. I haven't opened that file in a while, should dust it off. I've got the heavy art paper model I taped together here in my office but it has gotten pretty beat up. Let me find some photos of it in better days!

 

whqv9wF.png

Beyond welding trickiness, the Ti sheet is so tough that thinness won't be a worry for durability, only stiffness. Even with flex, there won't be much concern about fatigue either. Maybe even under 2mm sheet is enough?

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I remember seeing a method about 25 years ago, where an alu hull was built, then lowered into a full size concrete female mould, then filled with water. Then they set a bomb off inside the water which forced the alu into the mould perfectly leaving a nice fair alu hull. As a recall they thenglued all the stringers and bulkheads into place so as to not distort the hull shape.

 

The boats were 25-30ft I think, but I imagine it would be ideal if it worked for your dingy.

Boat design, construction and explosives all in one. That's like a sore pecker, you can't beat it.

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Kir:

I think with the shape complexity I have in the skiff origami has zero benefits. In fact, it really doesn't work. You would be far better off just doing a multi chine shape where you had control over the geometry. I think in the case of BS boats where you want the cheapest shell and you want it fast and you are not concerned with hull shape origami works just fine. But you get a crude shape determined more by the method than by design.

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You guys are talking *literal* origami. What I thought before I started reading was this was something I have slight experience with - you send a file to the local metal cutting place and get a pile of flat plates that make a boat.

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I remember seeing a method about 25 years ago, where an alu hull was built, then lowered into a full size concrete female mould, then filled with water. Then they set a bomb off inside the water which forced the alu into the mould perfectly leaving a nice fair alu hull. As a recall they thenglued all the stringers and bulkheads into place so as to not distort the hull shape.

 

The boats were 25-30ft I think, but I imagine it would be ideal if it worked for your dingy.

Explosive welding, still in use. IIRC can be used to join metals not ordinarily able to be welded. Seem to recall aluminum houses attached to steel decks by explosive pressure welding. Have seen Royal Huisman cowl vents that were different metal inside/outside. Stock tubes inserted into a mould, placed underwater, than shaped charge set off inside. Beautiful, one piece unit - $2000 apiece in "86.

And yes, there was a short production run of boat hulls blown into shape. Can't remember any further details.

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Ok, I'll bite. What is the advantage of 'origami' over a complete 'stitch and glue' type of boat? I'm used to thinking of these things in wood, but welding is essentially just glue for metal, so even Bob's row boat could be made from any flat stock. Seems like the guys at CLC (and others) have a bunch of plans and kits to make small boats, surely this idea can be scaled up, or simply built in metal instead? Likewise, scaled down and made from paper for models. Substitute a Waterjet machine for the CNC wood router, and a 'metal hot melt glue gun' (MIG) for epoxy, and there you go.

 

What am I missing?

With the origami method, you cut out sheets on the flat, pull them up into a curve and weld them up. You never build a structure to determine the shape as you do with just about any other method. And you live with the shape you get which may not be exactly what you hoped for.

 

People have done origami in plywood. You need a shape with pretty gentle curves or very thin panels, e.g. door skins.

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Here is a video to get things started:

 

http://youtu.be/kVJZW36l4D4

Actually that guy is quite interesting, that video is from 2010, he has made quite a bit of progress on the 74" junk rigged cargo/research boat the SV Seeker. If nothing else he is fearless, not afraid of failure and has quite a workshop, CNC plasma cutter, home foundry, a gantry crane and a shit load of hand tools. He has attracted volunteers from all over the US and the world. He is in Tulsa OK. Tulsa you say? Yes, Tulsa is the US most inland port with direct if not a long access to the the Gulf of Mexico. There are over 100 videos on his Youtube page documenting the process, quite interesting. He seems to be quite a nice guy, the ultimate, front yard, steel boat.

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Kent:

No, when BS says "origami" he means origami. To his credit he manages to get cruse but decent hull shapes, i.e. they look like boats. He has worked out the sheer thing and some of his sheers look fine. In fact, I have little problem with many of the BS boats. It's BS I have have a problem with., When some idiot who you have never met goes after your wife with 5th grade insults you tend to react. That got him kicked of Sailnuts for 6 months. His boats are fine if that's the kind of boat you want. They do not appeal to me subjectively or objectively. That's fine. Just my opinion.

 

I enjoyed the video very much. I admired the guy's approach.

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That explosively formed boat was called the Gelignite 32 and was actully a pretty nice hull form. They also use 3M VHB tape to bond in the bulkheads. I guess it truly was the original 'blow boat'!

 

I have some bookmarks for the subject with some more info. It was a Ben Lexen design.

 

This photo claims to be one of the explosive hydroformed boats but I have some doubt.

 

2011-11-02135814_2.jpg

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There still seems to be some confusion. (at least in my mind)

 

One method is to cut flat stock into a bunch of flat shapes, then bend and connect them. In wood, this is often called 'stitch and glue', a'la CLC or Devlin boats - some are rather nice. No frames are needed, the parts are connected and bent at the same time... sometimes incrementally by tightening the 'stitches'. From a design standpoint, each piece (or portion of a piece) can only bend along one axis at a time, and must be shaped into a section of a cone. I think this is what's referred to as a 'developed shape'.

 

A slightly different method involves cutting flat stock, but not into completely separate pieces. Look at Rasper's pattern and you can see the pieces are still connected at bow and stern. Looking at other sites, the connection seems to continue much farther, say to station 3. Then, when the cut part is connected at the chines, the remaining connected part (Bow and stern), forms a more gentle curve, with a softer bend than a hard chine.

 

Here's an example:

 

origamiboats-1.gif

 

I'm guessing this is what most refer to as 'Origami'

 

The problem is that in that area, it seems you'd end up with some difficult to predict curves. Unless you are stretching the material to make a compound curve, it's just going to do what it wants. Unlike wood, you can get some bending and stretching of steel or aluminum, but in the sizes and thicknesses we're talking, that's not easy. They don't make French wheels that big, I suspect there's a lot of pounding involved (like the dishing video above), or maybe big hydraulic presses. Or else you're using a lot of smaller parts, also like in the video - but doesn't that negate the 'advantage' of origami?

 

Seems to me that once you're doing that much work, you might as well make a metal lapstrake like Zeyang.

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That pattern was the very one that I printed out and glued to a cereal box and folded up. It was pretty cute and sparked my interest in this process. I think something like this would be great in ABS plastic sheet with a little ultrasound plastic welder. You could use a heat gun to soften up the areas at the apex of the darts to get a bit of relaxation and compounding to take out the 'kink' that pops up there. I cut holes at the apex on the designs I have done which helps in that respect. I had a buddy in Aruba make a pair of amas for his Geodetic Whitehall and it worked out pretty good. I'll look for photos or maybe he will chime in here on his project.

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You yanks are tough ! You have scared BS away from his own thread !

 

No, he's probably on the beach smoking an oyster.

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Too bad the rowing skiff didn't pan out initially - hope you get to take another run at it, I always really liked that one.

 

I suppose when you origami -- from one large sheet -- you can't vary panel thickness then...I was thinking of thinner side panels to save some weight and still have the drag-ability Bob wanted.

 

Would just going multi-chine spoil the concept somehow, or just make it all too fussy ?

 

As for the ABS sheet concept - that's so close to just MOLDING the darn thing I don't see much advantage to Origami method - just go stamp the buggers out at some point.

 

Liked the simple boat in a book concept for point-of-sale interest item - careful kids, you just might learn something...

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Here is metal forming at its finest!

 

The fact that they hand-form the sheet metal for the bullet trains completely blows my mind. It doesn't get any more Japanese than that, and I mean that in a good way. Do they hand wind the motors too? Sheesh!

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Too bad the rowing skiff didn't pan out initially - hope you get to take another run at it, I always really liked that one.

 

I suppose when you origami -- from one large sheet -- you can't vary panel thickness then...I was thinking of thinner side panels to save some weight and still have the drag-ability Bob wanted.

 

Would just going multi-chine spoil the concept somehow, or just make it all too fussy ?

 

As for the ABS sheet concept - that's so close to just MOLDING the darn thing I don't see much advantage to Origami method - just go stamp the buggers out at some point.

 

Liked the simple boat in a book concept for point-of-sale interest item - careful kids, you just might learn something...

 

I think the word you are looking for is 'Thermoforming' (which is more general than 'Vacuforming'). I watched Old Town make my Canoe that way. It was a good one. I saw a kayak at Costco this weekend that was two thermoformed parts glued together - it looked cheap. Oh, and you do get variable panel thickness, but often the opposite of what you want (thin at the bottom)

 

Hydroforming is similar; I have an aluminum bike frame made like that; it would be like the 'explosive forming' mentioned above, but more controllable... but the tooling would be really expensive.

 

Rotomolding is how plastic kayaks are made; They put a bunch of plastic powder in the mold, heat it and spin it around to coat the whole thing, then cool it. Done right, you get a more constant wall thickness. The limit is probably somewhere around 20 feet. It's like the most demented carnival ride ever!

 

And I agree, Bob's skiff looked nice... except I'd want a transom on mine, I might want to put a little motor on it someday.

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I think they make 2 stroke expansion chambers by welding 2 flat sheets together and forcing water in between until they are round in section them to shape them.

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There is a tugboat in Portland, one of the oldest working tugboats in the US (1874). It is made of wrought iron. I've been trying to get aboard for years to see it, but tugboats are hard to get aboard by invitation. My understanding is that it is made up of iron planks riveted to ribs lapstrake style. No welding- built like a wooden boat as welding hadn't been invented yet.

 

Here's the most I can find- http://www.workboat.com/component/content/article?id=3417

 

Anybody make titanium planks?

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There is a tugboat in Portland, one of the oldest working tugboats in the US (1874). It is made of wrought iron. I've been trying to get aboard for years to see it, but tugboats are hard to get aboard by invitation. My understanding is that it is made up of iron planks riveted to ribs lapstrake style. No welding- built like a wooden boat as welding hadn't been invented yet.

 

Here's the most I can find- http://www.workboat.com/component/content/article?id=3417

 

Anybody make titanium planks?

Yeah, plenty of Ti planks covering museums and opera houses.

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This is not an origami boat but it is my design and it is steel. It is a double chine version of NIGHT RUNNER and a very nice boat.

BS can't post any photos so I will.

SNR%202_zpsloscrihh.jpg

 

SNR%201_zpssjtbeidj.jpg

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Hobs:

That client bought the NR plans and I drew him a new set of lines, conically developed with two chines per side. That's all. I posted these epics to show you a steel boat does not have to be ugly and crude looking.

I do have a handful of steel designs. I just do not have photos of them. I have a steel version of the Passport 40 and a steel version of the Tayana 37. Both very nice boats. I am trying to get some photos of the steel TY37.

 

What is going on with those gate stanchions? I did lot draw that!

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That is really beautiful! What a great job the builder did.

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vjm:

Client was the builder. He was a commercial fisherman used to working in steel.

 

The funny thing is Cecil Lange, the builder of NIGHT RUNNER, totally fucked up the lines of the cabin trunk. This fisherman got the cabin trunk just right.

That boat has to be all of 25 years old now. Probably older.

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Wow! Very impressive work. And, as you know, that cabin trunk looks boss. I am sure that is a frustrating experience when builders monkey around with your design.

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vjm:

Client was the builder. He was a commercial fisherman used to working in steel.

 

The funny thing is Cecil Lange, the builder of NIGHT RUNNER, totally fucked up the lines of the cabin trunk. This fisherman got the cabin trunk just right.

That boat has to be all of 25 years old now. Probably older.

 

And it's still floating despite the way off-center companionway. Dude must be seriously lucky.

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vjm: I'm rel;axing after working all mrnon on the new NZ project. So, I'll tell you the story:

 

The cabin trunk looked wrong from the beginning. But I kept quiet. Then I read a magazine article with an interview with Cecil Lange "old world boat builder" bull shit. In the article the reporter asked him about the cabin trunk and he explained how he struck the lines with string the "oid world" way. He explained that the designer had nor provided any information for the cabin trunk. I exploded! I called Cecil up and told him the deck lines drawing was covered with dimensions. He said, in his cute NZ accent, "Oh I know that Bob I just aid it to sound good." Or something to that effect. I was fuming.

 

Here, judge for yourself. Here is my deck lines drawing for NR. It's covered with fucking dimensions.

NR%20deck%20lines_zps8r8kbiej.jpg

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Ugh! Artists and craftspeople always have unique challenges, but having your work changed in ways you don't sanction seems like a real waste, as well as frustrating enough to cause apoplexy. I can certainly see why working with Jim Betts is such a treat. They seem extremely professional.

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vjm:

Yeah. It's not Like me Bob P at 30 years old can role up in his Mercedes one day and tell 55 year old Cecil Lange, "Rip the entire cabin trunk off. It's totally wrong. Rip it off now!" Cecil got pissed off at me when I criticized his lofting abilities.

We did not get along.

 

Keep in mind, my ass has been save a fewl times by a builder with a great eye. It goes both ways.

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Does anyone have knowledge of where the Shakespeare Insult List is stored?

 

 

 

Oh, here it is;

 

 

Combine one word from each of the three columns below, prefaced with "Thou":

Column 1 Column 2 Column 3

 

artless base-court apple-john

bawdy bat-fowling baggage

beslubbering beef-witted barnacle

bootless beetle-headed bladder

churlish boil-brained boar-pig

cockered clapper-clawed bugbear

clouted clay-brained bum-bailey

craven common-kissing canker-blossom

currish crook-pated clack-dish

dankish dismal-dreaming clotpole

dissembling dizzy-eyed coxcomb

droning doghearted codpiece

errant dread-bolted death-token

fawning earth-vexing dewberry

fobbing elf-skinned flap-dragon

froward fat-kidneyed flax-wench

frothy fen-sucked flirt-gill

gleeking flap-mouthed foot-licker

goatish fly-bitten fustilarian

gorbellied folly-fallen giglet

impertinent fool-born gudgeon

infectious full-gorged haggard

jarring guts-griping harpy

loggerheaded half-faced hedge-pig

lumpish hasty-witted horn-beast

mammering hedge-born hugger-mugger

mangled hell-hated joithead

mewling idle-headed lewdster

paunchy ill-breeding lout

pribbling ill-nurtured maggot-pie

puking knotty-pated malt-worm

puny milk-livered mammet

qualling motley-minded measle

rank onion-eyed minnow

reeky plume-plucked miscreant

roguish pottle-deep moldwarp

ruttish pox-marked mumble-news

saucy reeling-ripe nut-hook

spleeny rough-hewn pigeon-egg

spongy rude-growing pignut

surly rump-fed puttock

tottering shard-borne pumpion

unmuzzled sheep-biting ratsbane

vain spur-galled scut

venomed swag-bellied skainsmate

villainous tardy-gaited strumpet

warped tickle-brained varlot

wayward toad-spotted vassal

weedy unchin-snouted whey-face

yeasty weather-bitten wagtail

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Hobs:

I have the book. It's SHAKESPEARE - THE BARD'S GUIDE to ABUSES and AFFRONTS. It's a fun read.

 

" Earth gapes, hell. burns, fiends pray to have him suddenly covey'd away"

 

Oh yeah, the dreaded myth of the off center companionway. Olin Stephens and Phil Rhodes did not believe in it either. I went through my S&S book a couple years ago and found more designs with off center companionways than on center companionways. Olin Stephens? What a hack!

I too have been on NR when we were on our beam's end and not a drop got below. Yes the Windex did get wet. But you would have to understand naval architecture to understand why that works.

 

Actually my normal office rate is $150 for good work. If you want me to "fuck things up" I charge $200 an hour.

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That steel NR is moored close to my boat in the Edmonds marina and I used to have to walk by it every time I walked out to my boat. The funny thing is that i never saw it go out and I never saw anyone working on it, but it always looks good. So it made me wonder about how much maintenance there is on a well designed and well built steel boat?

Still steel is not the material for me, but I am sure it works for some people. But as Bob has shown, just because you choose to build in steel doesn't mean you have to have a boat that looks like it was designed and built by a 6 year old who never built anything before. This steel boat looks just as good in real life close up as it does in the pictures.

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Explosive forming is still used beyond dissimilar metal welding. This company should be one of the usual suspects in this game.

From rather simple stuff like architecture, usually adding fine structure to large plates.

To more complex things like to adding structure to sheets, or forming round turbine parts.

Up to highly complex parts like this window section of an Airbus A350.

 

post-106437-0-40289700-1458430408_thumb.jpg

 

 

NL news including videos. (No idea if Airbus actually uses this system or not)

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vjm:

Client was the builder. He was a commercial fisherman used to working in steel.

 

The funny thing is Cecil Lange, the builder of NIGHT RUNNER, totally fucked up the lines of the cabin trunk. This fisherman got the cabin trunk just right.

That boat has to be all of 25 years old now. Probably older.

Just like designers with no hands on metal working experience, fuck things up ( sometimes charging $150 an hour to fuck things up)

 

 

That's funny - I thought Langes method sounded like something you'd do.

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vjm:

Yeah. It's not Like me Bob P at 30 years old can role up in his Mercedes one day and tell 55 year old Cecil Lange, "Rip the entire cabin trunk off. It's totally wrong. Rip it off now!" Cecil got pissed off at me when I criticized his lofting abilities.

We did not get along.

 

 

 

Why didn't you just tell Fryer it wasn't being built according to the plans? He was a lawyer wasn't he?

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This is not an origami boat but it is my design and it is steel. It is a double chine version of NIGHT RUNNER and a very nice boat.

BS can't post any photos so I will.

SNR%202_zpsloscrihh.jpg

 

SNR%201_zpssjtbeidj.jpg

I have taked a few knockdowns in which that offset hatch would have flooded and sank the boat. That is why I like to keep all openings on the centreline . I have heard of such hatches sinking boats that way. A fisherman ,having his experience mainly in power boats, which dont heel that far, would not see that point.

 

The great SA Offset Companioway curse gains a few more years. :lol:

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vjm:

Client was the builder. He was a commercial fisherman used to working in steel.

 

The funny thing is Cecil Lange, the builder of NIGHT RUNNER, totally fucked up the lines of the cabin trunk. This fisherman got the cabin trunk just right.

That boat has to be all of 25 years old now. Probably older.

Just like designers with no hands on metal working experience, fuck things up ( sometimes charging $150 an hour to fuck things up)

 

 

That's funny - I thought Langes method sounded like something you'd do.

 

Just like designers with no hands on metal working experience, fuck things up ( sometimes charging $150 an hour to fuck things up)

Brent;

Just out of curiosity, what does your comment have to do with Bob's comment that the builder of the steel hull NR managed to build the cabin trunk correctly even though he was working in steel and not wood? All I see here is a compliment to the builder on doing such a good job that the boat still looks good after 25-30 years

You must realize by now that you are coming across to readers, even new readers, as a mean spirited, self loathing loser who is insanely jealous of anyone who has talent and has been successful.

Why don't you impress us all here at CA and post some pictures of boats that you have designed and built that are the same age? Is it possible that you are not even as good a builder as a commercial fisherman possibly building his first sailboat?

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That's exactly why he won't post anything but talk.

 

I've seen a few of his boats and none of them approach the quality of that NR copy. To BS that's a virtue. The best of them have a kind of funky, hippy charm but most just look very amateurish.

 

Judge for yourself.

 

https://www.google.ca/search?q=brent+swain+boat+images&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&gws_rd=cr&ei=yELuVuOmNISAjwPts7iICg

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This is not an origami boat but it is my design and it is steel. It is a double chine version of NIGHT RUNNER and a very nice boat.

BS can't post any photos so I will.

SNR%202_zpsloscrihh.jpg

 

SNR%201_zpssjtbeidj.jpg

I have taked a few knockdowns in which that offset hatch would have flooded and sank the boat. That is why I like to keep all openings on the centreline . I have heard of such hatches sinking boats that way. A fisherman ,having his experience mainly in power boats, which dont heel that far, would not see that point.

Friends have tried that dead vegetation type of bulwark cap, a maintenance night mare. They have eventualy pried it off, and hired me to weld a sch 40 stainless pipe on, in it's place. Waterline Yachts gave up on wood at that point and went for SS square tubing, a huge improvement. A friend had sch 40 stainless pipe squashed into an oval for that use . It cost him $60 to squash enough for a 40 footer.

That lets you weld your stanchions on top of the bulwark to eliminate the toe busters on deck and give you more deck space

 

 

 

Hi Mr. Swain

 

Nice to have your opinion on offset companionways.

 

I'd be interested to hear your point of view on anchors, and the value for money that the "new generation" anchors represent.

 

Thanks again

 

 

Ed.

 

 

[who's just put this through the letterbox and run away ...]

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I went to the link Slap posted. Why are some of my own drawings on that link? Many of those boats are not BS boats.A number of other designer's boats are displayed there. However I do find some of the origami boats OK looking boats. Not my cup of tea but overall OK if a bit home spun. Nothing wrong with that. It's BS I don't care for not his boats.

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I also admire that guy but I don't admire the boat he is building. He'd get pennies on his dollar if he ever had to sell it. It's going to be a very challenging boat to sail. But I wish him all the best. I have enjoyed his vids.

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When I was working on a steel boat project, I learned there are very good materials now to paint hulls with. If done well, the paint should look good and be rust-free for a long time. OTOH what you really have to watch is the interior. Depending on how good a job you do, you can end up with a boat rusting from the inside out.

That steel NR is moored close to my boat in the Edmonds marina and I used to have to walk by it every time I walked out to my boat. The funny thing is that i never saw it go out and I never saw anyone working on it, but it always looks good. So it made me wonder about how much maintenance there is on a well designed and well built steel boat?

Still steel is not the material for me, but I am sure it works for some people. But as Bob has shown, just because you choose to build in steel doesn't mean you have to have a boat that looks like it was designed and built by a 6 year old who never built anything before. This steel boat looks just as good in real life close up as it does in the pictures.

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I get it now. Brent is not here to be taken seriously, he is only here for some comic relief. That's why his comments sound like a very long bad joke.

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To quote Brent:

 

 

 

In BC, my boats are considered some of the best looking steel boats on the coast.

 

http://www.boatdesign.net/forums/metal-boat-building/origami-steel-yacht-construction-248-19.html#post383543

 

Maybe by him.

 

The attached is the best looking BS boat I've ever see. It reminds me of a 40 Y.O. Roberts 37 but it's still a decent looking boat IMO.

 

Certainly no Waterline in the looks department.

 

post-95343-0-72079200-1458492188_thumb.jpg

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This is not an origami boat but it is my design and it is steel. It is a double chine version of NIGHT RUNNER and a very nice boat.

BS can't post any photos so I will.

SNR%202_zpsloscrihh.jpg

 

SNR%201_zpssjtbeidj.jpg

 

Nice and interesting boat.

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When I was working on a steel boat project, I learned there are very good materials now to paint hulls with. If done well, the paint should look good and be rust-free for a long time. OTOH what you really have to watch is the interior. Depending on how good a job you do, you can end up with a boat rusting from the inside out.

 

That steel NR is moored close to my boat in the Edmonds marina and I used to have to walk by it every time I walked out to my boat. The funny thing is that i never saw it go out and I never saw anyone working on it, but it always looks good. So it made me wonder about how much maintenance there is on a well designed and well built steel boat?

Still steel is not the material for me, but I am sure it works for some people. But as Bob has shown, just because you choose to build in steel doesn't mean you have to have a boat that looks like it was designed and built by a 6 year old who never built anything before. This steel boat looks just as good in real life close up as it does in the pictures.

 

There is a resale issue with interiors as well.

 

If you have to tear out the interior to expect the hull and bilges, you can't get a surveyor to sign off on the hull integrity around here.

 

So the interior has to be easily removable, like in a planked boat.

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steel origami

 

http://www.sv-mom.com/

 

 

aluminium origami

 

I know of 2 identical aluminium origami 48 footers built in sequence

 

( coin toss for which owner builder kept each one)

 

built in 14 weeks each from first weld to lauch,

 

tack welded by owners, finised by professional welder

 

Built in the hot bed of quick construction, Vancouver Island

 

 

http://www.paddleducks.co.uk/smf/index.php?topic=1768.0

 

and

 

http://origamimagic.com/images/Image2.jpg

 

 

 

 

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It appears that Winston has some experience !

 

Winston has built three "Brent Boats" of his own (DOVE II, DOVE III and DOVE IV) and had sailed the northwest passage accross the top ...

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Ian, no-one is criticizing origami as a process - only BS's angry and single minded zealotry.

 

Like all process and materials it has its strengths and weaknesses but to hear BS tell it, every other process and material is inferior to it - most to the extent of being life threatening.

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Ian:

I have seen those photos before. I think I first saw them about three years ago. Nice looking hulls. Who did the design? It looks well done.

If they are now launched or would have been a couple years back, do you have pics of the finished boats.. Somebody must.

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