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      Abbreviated rules   07/28/2017

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IStream

Origami Boat Thread

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My granny always said, 'If you can't say something nice...'

 

Then come sit by me.

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Unfortunately BS has not looked at many modern boats so he has no idea how many modern boats have some hollow in their entries. Check out the latest TP52's for hollow in the topsides aft. It's dramatic. But there again it's a matter of letting the technique call the shape or allowing the designer to dictate the shape. In my newest design I have some flare in the topsides requiring a slight hollow. It gives me the shape I want without any technique interfering. I have hollow in the entry of the four carbon cutters also. I want to be in control of that stuff.

 

Take the Swedish client's double ender. That stern shape is impossible with using some hollow in the topsides. Without the hollow you'd get a shape like a salad bowl. The hollow is introduced around station 8.5. It's subtle at first but at the stern it gives that complex, refined looking shape I am after.

 

Nothing wrog with the way BS does it. It simply is not the way I want to design. I'm still waiting for BS to post one of his drawings.

Ibold%203_zpsbl5iy8ga.jpg

Ibold%205_zps3abvsuao.jpg

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I don't think anyone is saying that at all BS. Most of us have seen some well done origami boats. I don't read anyone complaining about the boats. Those two aluminum origami boats looked quite nice. The origami canoe is beautiful, a work of art.

 

I see your "delete" function is working.

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That origami canoe is really nice. That particular style of origami might be a possibility for the flat-packed toy boat project.

 

But, despite such a fine example, even with a canoe there are big limitations to shape, and I learned a lot as Bob Perry explained that idea thoroughly and politely given the bs in a few posts.

 

The canoe I built could not be produced with origami. And, I don't want a wood canoe, even as beautiful as they often are. I built the Freedom 17 by Steve Killing which is asymmetrical and the ends are more plumb giving it a more modern look and longer waterline. The Freedom 17 was designed for cedar strip construction but was easily adapted to a kevlar, carbon, glass layup.

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Lasal:

How about a photo of the Killing boat. Steve is a very talented designer.

 

I look at that canoe and I look at my alu skiff and I wonder if I could not have gotten the shape I was after with vertical darts and less horizontal cutting. I'll probably never know. Fun to consider.

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Brent, when you click on the quote button you get that entire post with an area at the bottom to put your comments in. If you only want part of the comments of the person you are quoting you have to delete everything else in their post.

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For photos of my designs, click on http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats

Then click on the photos section. Tried moving them here, but even computer nerds, who have a lot more computer knowledge than I have trouble doing it.

So for those too lazy to click on the above link, tough shit!

You move them!

You have to join the group to get to the photos section.

 

No thanks.

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For photos of my designs, click on http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats

Then click on the photos section. Tried moving them here, but even computer nerds, who have a lot more computer knowledge than I have trouble doing it.

So for those too lazy to click on the above link, tough shit!

You move them!

 

Yo, the 'Photos' section isn't available unless you are logged in and a member of that group? Not effective marketing, brah.

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Ditto - why is that fucking Yahoo even in existence any longer? What a shit host. I've tried several times to sign up for Yahoo sites and never managed to get through their bullshit process - and I spent my working life in IT.

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Several origami boats are quite (or very) nice. The Silas Crosby voyage was very impressive.

 

But I wonder about cost savings. As I understand, bare hull costs are about 25 % of completed boat cost. Thus a (say) 30 % savings in hull costs would translate to a less than 8 % savings in complete boat cost.

 

Is the origami technique worthwile given these figures ? Does the origami technique constrain the designer, end thus negate its cost advantage?

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Not an orgami boat and not a sail boat, but it is a very cool story about one dreamer that started building a 65' steel, plank on frame boat and died after finishing the hull and superstructure but not much else. Enter the second dreamer who bought the neglected rusting boat from the builder's widow for $10,000. He spent many years and a lot of money working on the boat, added nine feet to the hull and eventually lived on it in Chicago on the canals and rivers around the city. Quite a tale, I won't reveal how it all ends but it is worth the 45 minutes to watch all 3 parts in my opinion. Very interesting, touching story.

 

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Proa: Finally,,,,we agree on something. Phew! I try not to "sign up" on anything these days. When Tom Larsen built my web site we discussed if we should have a "comments" section. Tom advised me that I could edit it at will. But Tom knows me well and we decided that editing or deleting comments was not really the way I wanted to go. So, no comments. If someone has a problem with my web site they can wrote their mother and complain.

 

BS says, "Then you end up with no filler or fairing needed in the paint job,"

I say that it depends upon your definition of "fairness". I see lumpy , bumpy boats for the most part. BS and I do not a agree on the definition of "fairness". "Fair enough" works for BS. Kind of like a guitar being almost in tune. "Close enough for rock and roll" is not a rule. It's a joke. But I will agree to the fact that :"fairness" is subjective. My criteria for 40 years has been, "To Swan quality". If BS thinks his steel boats are fair to Swam quality then he needs even thicker glasses.

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Several origami boats are quite (or very) nice. The Silas Crosby voyage was very impressive.

 

But I wonder about cost savings. As I understand, bare hull costs are about 25 % of completed boat cost. Thus a (say) 30 % savings in hull costs would translate to a less than 8 % savings in complete boat cost.

 

Is the origami technique worthwile given these figures ? Does the origami technique constrain the designer, end thus negate its cost advantage?

 

Bare hull costs are generally regarded as more like 10% to 15% of the total boat. Although there is probably some material savings in the foregone framing, the savings with origami is touted more as time saved than material costs. Brent promotes cost saving through building your own fittings, accepting a workboat level of fit & finish and so forth. Those savings can be realized in any material.

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I definitely get wanting less teak to control maintenance time. I also get that if you going to places that really rock and roll, your gear and connections had better be strong enough to take it. What I don't understand is the argument that having a "fancy" level of finish inherently means less seaworthy. It obviously doesn't, just as every work boat is not sea worthy of the design, build, or equipment is flawed.

 

It just seems like a false dichotomy to me. Plenty of boats are beautiful without being horribly demanding in terms of maintenece time. You should be able to have beauty and functionality.

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Re:

"Ian:

I have seen those photos before. I think I first saw them about three years ago. Nice looking hulls. Who did the design? It looks well done.

If they are now launched or would have been a couple years back, do you have pics of the finished boats.. Somebody must." Robert Perry

http://www.paddleducks.co.uk/smf/index.php?topic=1768.0

I believe the long aluminium origami hull belongs to Greg James

I've searched but no further trace of his boat on the internet.........

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Several origami boats are quite (or very) nice. The Silas Crosby voyage was very impressive.

 

But I wonder about cost savings. As I understand, bare hull costs are about 25 % of completed boat cost. Thus a (say) 30 % savings in hull costs would translate to a less than 8 % savings in complete boat cost.

 

Is the origami technique worthwile given these figures ? Does the origami technique constrain the designer, end thus negate its cost advantage?

 

Bare hull costs are generally regarded as more like 10% to 15% of the total boat. Although there is probably some material savings in the foregone framing, the savings with origami is touted more as time saved than material costs. Brent promotes cost saving through building your own fittings, accepting a workboat level of fit & finish and so forth. Those savings can be realized in any material.

 

Agreed. I was going to say the same thing.

 

So much of the saving that Brent talks about are applicable to any home build who is willing to fabricate fittings.

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Who's talking plank on frame for a home build? Speak Up!

 

Soaked, in that post about the huge power boat.

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"An engineer can do for a dollar what any fool can do for two." (Henry Ford I think)

 

Let him speak, I am a practicing engineer, I've built one boat and I am still learning stuff from what he writes. May be some of you know it all about origami boats but lesser mortals like me might be interested.

 

If I were to build a boat in my backyard, it would either be strip planking or plywood because I am more at ease with a router than a welder in my hands but there is always a lot to learn from ingenuous techniques and cold forming the whole hull like this is definitely not common.

 

Brent, I am interested about how you design the hulls. Did you go the empirical way (paper templates, trial and errors) or do you manage to draw them properly before?

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Pano:

I have been asking BS to post a set of lines for three years. He has none to post. I think Tad Roberts reverse engineered a set of origami lines so he could do a stability test a few years back. As far as I know, BS has not posted a single drawing.

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Pano:

I have been asking BS to post a set of lines for three years. He has none to post. I think Tad Roberts reverse engineered a set of origami lines so he could do a stability test a few years back. As far as I know, BS has not posted a single drawing.

 

Cathedrals and churches have been built without drawings in the modern sense of the term, many still stand up and are admired half a millenium later. He's piqued my interest, I've an open mind whatever his answer and I'd like to know how he actually designs the boats.

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Pano:

I have been asking BS to post a set of lines for three years. He has none to post. I think Tad Roberts reverse engineered a set of origami lines so he could do a stability test a few years back. As far as I know, BS has not posted a single drawing.

 

Cathedrals and churches have been built without drawings in the modern sense of the term, many still stand up and are admired half a millenium later. He's piqued my interest, I've an open mind whatever his answer and I'd like to know how he actually designs the boats.

 

The process to define and refine an origami boat is interesting to me too. I'm guessing the 3 ton or larger come-along is actually one of the design tools, and that's fine, but it is a limitation.

 

For "backyard" boat building, FRP has the advantage that the materials can be shipped and moved into place easily and the plug built with local lumber and materials. How do you deal with 36' steel plates in the average backyard?

 

The very careful prep and intact, high quality, high build, plastic coating inside and out to slow steel corrosion doesn't sound that simple, especially outside or under a tarp.

 

The best application for an relatively small origami steel sailboat, I think, is if you intend to sail in broken ice and push those limits. But the building process and cost savings don't sound that compelling.

 

attachicon.gifIMAG0556 (1).jpg

 

Freedom 17 in Kevlar, glass and carbon ribs, with ash gunnels, yoke, and seat frames. Built over a plug.

I know is hanging upside down but just to help.

 

Thanks! I have some action shots somewhere in the digital soup, I mean cloud.

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attachicon.gifIMAG0556 (1).jpg

 

Freedom 17 in Kevlar, glass and carbon ribs, with ash gunnels, yoke, and seat frames. Built over a plug.

I know is hanging upside down but just to help.

 

It's so light it has to be tied down.

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Who's talking plank on frame for a home build? Speak Up!

 

Soaked, in that post about the huge power boat.

 

Guilty as charged. I merely posted that because of the discussion about metal boats and the story of the 75' monster is quite interesting. Not only was it plank and frame steel construction but every seam was welded on both sides! It took years of welding and grinding and ultimately, welding fumes may have caused the cancer death of the original builder/owner. The man worked for a steel supplier so a healthy discount on material may have influenced his choice.

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Correct BS and that's because there are so few BS boats.

Brentboats outnumber Perry boats around here, by a huge margin.

 

So what you are saying is in Comox, Brentboats outnumber Perry boats by a huge margin but in the rest of the world, the number of Brentboats vs Perry boats is so small as to be statistically insignificant. Hey, that's ok, if it makes you feel better, I understand completely.

 

If only you could just post informative things about your construction methods and ideas such as you occasionally do, people might enjoy what you write but when you go of on flights of fancy like you did above and personal insults, you pretty much lose any credibility you might have.

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Brent,

 

How do you design your boats. Traditional pen and paper (or mouse and computer) or is it experimental (such as model building or trial and error)?

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Pano:

I have been asking BS to post a set of lines for three years. He has none to post. I think Tad Roberts reverse engineered a set of origami lines so he could do a stability test a few years back. As far as I know, BS has not posted a single drawing.

 

Cathedrals and churches have been built without drawings in the modern sense of the term, many still stand up and are admired half a millenium later. He's piqued my interest, I've an open mind whatever his answer and I'd like to know how he actually designs the boats.

 

The process to define and refine an origami boat is interesting to me too. I'm guessing the 3 ton or larger come-along is actually one of the design tools, and that's fine, but it is a limitation.

 

For "backyard" boat building, FRP has the advantage that the materials can be shipped and moved into place easily and the plug built with local lumber and materials. How do you deal with 36' steel plates in the average backyard?

 

The very careful prep and intact, high quality, high build, plastic coating inside and out to slow steel corrosion doesn't sound that simple, especially outside or under a tarp.

 

The best application for an relatively small origami steel sailboat, I think, is if you intend to sail in broken ice and push those limits. But the building process and cost savings don't sound that compelling.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

Bob, I dont have a huge scanner.

 

We simply tie the 8ft by 36 sheets to a tree and drive the truck out from under it. That is comon practise for unloading steel. It moves easily with comealongs. It comes wheelabraded and primed with cold galvanizing primer, eliminating the need for sandblasting. Mine came that way , 32 years ago, and I have never had to sandblast, except for 20 minutes of touch up last summer.

I have tacked a 36 ft hull together in three days, a fraction the time it takes to build a mold for plastic, put the decks on in 8 hours, and tack together a complete shell hull, decks, cabin, cockpit ,wheelhouse, keel, and skeg in about a week. My boat was 30 days, from steel arrival to launching.

Epoxying a steel boat is roughly the same as gel coating a mold.

Have the low oil prices been reflected in resin costs, yet?

 

No doubt, there are certainly efficiencies of time and tooling with your system, and the results are good.

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Drawings would be great to review but you will not find a set of drawings for any Nathaniel Herreschoff designs. He carved a hull to scale and faired it to the shape he thought best, towed it behind a skiff to see its wake. He then invented a machine which took the offsets from the hull and used those to layout the framing on a skreed board. His results were remarkable.

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Drawings would be great to review but you will not find a set of drawings for any Nathaniel Herreschoff designs. He carved a hull to scale and faired it to the shape he thought best, towed it behind a skiff to see its wake. He then invented a machine which took the offsets from the hull and used those to layout the framing on a skreed board. His results were remarkable.

 

Old style 3D CAD - "Carving Aided Design".

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The brentboats I have seen in BC anchorages never seem to move at all. Most look to be abandoned (even if people are living on them).

In the marina I'm anchored next to, freinds have seen plastic boats change hands six times without leaving the marina.

 

I'm sure you meant " the marina that I go to weekly to empty my holding tank". Right? You're not living aboard and dumping overboard, are you?

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Not true Sailman; Herreshoff had a machine made to take the lines off his models. There are lots of Nat's lines drawings around. How do you think they lofted the boats?

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BS: If you want to play "numbers of boats" you will lose and just look even sillier than you look now.

Let's start with this: There are more Flying Tigers built than all BS boats combined. And that is just two of my more obscure designs.

 

 

And still no evidence at all that BS "designs" boats.

 

While BS talks Perry works. I have been to the yard today. The first deck gets dry fit tomorrow so I will go back. It's pleasant work. I'll post today's photos over on the New Design thread. I have some good interior shots.

Here is a teaser. This is the much talked about but seldom understood sea chest glassed in place against the engine room bhd. Jesus and Anthony are squatting in the engine room contemplating the mounting of the large alternator.

B%201_zpsayw8rthm.jpg

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If you order carbon cutters 4 at a time you get Jesus installing your hardware?

 

Now that is impressive. :D

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Correct BS and that's because there are so few BS boats.

 

 

Can't we all agree that BS is an idiot ,who doesn't merit consideration in these forums?

 

 

Brent has apparently dialed back the angry attack mode in his posts - suggest you do the same.

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Correct BS and that's because there are so few BS boats.

 

 

Can't we all agree that BS is an idiot ,who doesn't merit consideration in these forums?

 

The wonderful thing about the interweb is that there is a place for everyone in its anarchy. I find some of what Brent says interesting. Some is IMHO bunk. I take the good with the bad in life.

 

While steel origami boats are not for me, I don't see the point of setting up an Origami Boats thread and then baiting it like a trap to slag (term chosen carefully) Brent Swain. If BS would stay in this thread and proselytise about his steel origami boats, and Bob would go back to his carbon cutter thread, and n'e'r the two would meet, I for one would be grateful.

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Jim:

How about I do just what I like and you do just what you like? What a concept. If you want rules and limitations you don't go to a place called "Anarchy".

Fair 'nuff.

 

There are just sometimes I want to try to perceive nature's harmony in what is apparently anarchy. A character flaw, I guess. I personally don't care if two grown men want to duke it out. There is probably some balance in that.

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I've been learning about Origami boats, and find it interesting. But I find all boats interesting, I'm considering an inflatable kayak as a tender for my plastic 4ksb. I think there's a comparison in there; the blow up 'yak will be generally boat shaped, will float reasonably well, and do what it's intended to do - mostly. It seems that Origami is a niche market, for those extreme diy guys; I mean do *everything* yourself, right down to making blocks and cleats the hard way. And that's fine; you can make a bass out of a washtub and a broom; add a washboard, kazoo and a brown jug and you've got a band - it's a different kind of music than the philharmonic makes, but it can still be enjoyable.

 

I went to the Yahoo site, and joined so I could look at the pictures. It's mostly 'blog' type stuff by guys building boats in their back yards, in various stages of completion. I copied a few to photobucket, and I'll try to link them here. Mostly I was interested in the transitions around the end of the chines / darts, and general hull shape. I'll present them without comment, except to note that many are bilge keelers:

 

IMG_2151_zpsgyc4j0bq.jpg

 

The album is here:

http://s45.photobucket.com/user/kirwan9/library/Origami%20boats

 

 

With a smile like this, how bad can the boat be?:

 

n_aWPKJR83U_zpsly6mdrqx.jpg

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In the marina I'm anchored next to, freinds have seen plastic boats change hands six times without leaving the marina.

 

 

You've lost me here - is this the fault of the hull material somehow ?

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A client had worked on C&C plastic boats for many years , and ended up with a cabosil sensitivity. He had free access to their molds, etc, but wanted nothing to do with fibreglass. So I built him a steel boat. Later, he died from a cancer, which he believed was caused by his time working with fibreglass.

 

 

Or maybe it was exposure to iron oxide and solvent-based paints.

 

As the son of parents taken much too young by cancer, I have to say you really ought to consider the asinine nature of saying things that you have no evidence of.

 

and, even If the gentleman HAD developed a form of mesothelioma from not handling Cabosil filler properly, that is hardly the fault of fiberglass, composite construction, or whatever resin matrix he used.

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I've been learning about Origami boats, and find it interesting. But I find all boats interesting, I'm considering an inflatable kayak as a tender for my plastic 4ksb. I think there's a comparison in there; the blow up 'yak will be generally boat shaped, will float reasonably well, and do what it's intended to do - mostly. It seems that Origami is a niche market, for those extreme diy guys; I mean do *everything* yourself, right down to making blocks and cleats the hard way. And that's fine; you can make a bass out of a washtub and a broom; add a washboard, kazoo and a brown jug and you've got a band - it's a different kind of music than the philharmonic makes, but it can still be enjoyable.

 

I went to the Yahoo site, and joined so I could look at the pictures. It's mostly 'blog' type stuff by guys building boats in their back yards, in various stages of completion. I copied a few to photobucket, and I'll try to link them here. Mostly I was interested in the transitions around the end of the chines / darts, and general hull shape. I'll present them without comment, except to note that many are bilge keelers:

 

Thanks for posting those pictures. I looked through the Photobucket gallery - some of them are semi-pretty but a lot taste like ear wax flavoured jelly beans.

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Jim:

How about I do just what I like and you do just what you like? What a concept. If you want rules and limitations you don't go to a place called "Anarchy".

Fair 'nuff.

 

There are just sometimes I want to try to perceive nature's harmony in what is apparently anarchy. A character flaw, I guess. I personally don't care if two grown men want to duke it out. There is probably some balance in that.

 

There is balance in everything grasshopper, even the unpleasant. Otherwise life would not exist.

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Jim: BS has been attacking me and my family personally for over two years. It was bad enough to get hi kicked off SailNet. I'd go into details in a PM but I would rather not bother you. But trust that I will be on his back when he spouts his BS. He lies. He makes up quotes and credits them to me. To me he is a no talent low life that gives yacht design a bad name. The boats are fine, crude, rusty lumpy and bumpy but just fine if that is your style. My clients have zero interest in that type of boat. BS finds this difficult to comprehend. So, I remind him.

 

Me? A "grown man". Nope. I became a yacht designer. I didn't have to "grow up".

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Still, as he likes to remind every chance he gets, his clients can build a boat for pennies compared to anything else - so you can each have your niche - one for those who have enjoyed success in their financial lives and one for those far less better off who think that building a new yacht is just the thing for a life beset by fiscal challenges.

 

Works for me.

 

Frankly, anytime ANYBODY starts with a monetary angle in regards to sailing I have to Stop (hammertime)

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"Frankly, anytime ANYBODY starts with a monetary angle in regards to sailing I have to Stop (hammertime)"

 

I hear you Shark. If I client moans about the cost to me I tell them "Nobody ever said yachting was cheap."

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Not true Sailman; Herreshoff had a machine made to take the lines off his models. There are lots of Nat's lines drawings around. How do you think they lofted the boats?

I can check back in over there but I am pretty sure that he never drew a boat. All his designs were models and offsets. There was a Naval Arch that got permission from MIT to take the offsets from two or three AC defenders. He lofted just the hulls with no keel and sold them off. Incredibly beautiful.

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or to the guy griping about the cost of new cam-belts for his desmo-driven valves:

 

"Nobody NEEDS a bright red DUCATI superbike."

 

It's been said at my buddy's shop. More than once.

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or to the guy griping about the cost of new cam-belts for his desmo-driven valves:

 

"Nobody NEEDS a bright red DUCATI superbike."

 

It's been said at my buddy's shop. More than once.

 

I think I need one....

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"Frankly, anytime ANYBODY starts with a monetary angle in regards to sailing I have to Stop (hammertime)"

 

I hear you Shark. If I client moans about the cost to me I tell them "Nobody ever said yachting was cheap."

Saving money is great, and the used market has been very reliable for good options within a budget. That's why I follow yacht design, so I can make an educated guess when buying a used boat.

 

If I built a custom boat, it would be a fantastic design, not a clunky heavy cheap boat. But, that works for others and I don't mind checking out that method, it's interesting.

 

Hey Bob, here's that Steve Killing canoe:

post-31152-0-27155000-1458689013_thumb.jpg

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Mostly I was interested in the transitions around the end of the chines / darts, and general hull shape.

 

Any design using panel material, steel or plywood, is limited in shape by the properties of the material. And, if you use a simplified hull form or construction method, you are limited still more. Just for example, if you use the usual methods for developing the panel shapes for a hard chine boat, you get a relatively blunt bow. If you look at the picture of Prairie Maid, you see see substantial bow overhand. If you were to try to work toward a straight stem and longer LWL forward, you would need a sharper bend in the panel forward of the chine.

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Kir:

I love Pink Floyd.

 

Your canoe looks great.

 

Sailman:

Read again. I did not say that. I said his models were "translated" through a fancy machine into drawings. If you don't have drawings you cannot loft. Are you going to loft from a model? Really

It seems to me that back in my teenage brain is a photo of the machine Capt'n Nat used to produce the lines.

 

The Ct 54 stern was "designed" from a .75" to the foot model. I know. I did it.

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However, unlike plywood, there is some plasticity in sheet steel and aluminum. Probably not much at useful thicknesses, and the forces required are more than 'a little hammering' can produce, but it is possible... but I guess not in a backyard build.

 

Mostly I'm struck by the lack of 'intentional design'. Cut, bend, weld, and what you get is what you get. Sure, there's some trial and error in models first, but it's very difficult to say 'I want it full here, or flat there' I can't imagine they can determine COM, COB, Stability, or even displacement beforehand to any degree of accuracy.

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Kir:

Bingo!

 

You got it. With the origami method you get what you get. You have no idea of the hydrostatics. Of course if you don;t know what hydrostatics are tat is not a problem.

You can't do stability studies because you have no lines drawing. This is what I have been trying to say.

 

Fuck. Finally someone gets it.

 

Shark: Very funny.

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Jim:

How about I do just what I like and you do just what you like? What a concept. If you want rules and limitations you don't go to a place called "Anarchy".

Fair 'nuff.

 

There are just sometimes I want to try to perceive nature's harmony in what is apparently anarchy. A character flaw, I guess.

 

 

Anarchy is, by its very nature, fundamentally inharmonious.

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Not true Sailman; Herreshoff had a machine made to take the lines off his models. There are lots of Nat's lines drawings around. How do you think they lofted the boats?

I can check back in over there but I am pretty sure that he never drew a boat. All his designs were models and offsets. There was a Naval Arch that got permission from MIT to take the offsets from two or three AC defenders. He lofted just the hulls with no keel and sold them off. Incredibly beautiful.

 

Yachting magazine, March 1998, p.15

herreshoff_offset_machine.png

Offset.jpg

 

 

Found here: http://boatwrightacademy.org/determining-offsets/

 

P.S. from BOAT PLANS AT MYSTIC SEAPORT, FOREWORD

 

Yacht design as a profession began with half-hull models carved from wood, from which the fullsized yacht would be scaled up by the builder. The last great American designer to create his yachts exclusively by carving half-hulls was Nathanael G. Herreshoff (1848-1938), the Wizard of Bristol.

The profession then turned to faired lines drawn by the designer with pencil on paper, for subsequent tracing in ink on linen (and replication by blueprint). The first important American designer to create yachts exclusively from drawn lines was A. Gary Smith (1837-1911). Such are the ironies of history that Herreshoff with his traditional methods of shaping hulls proved to be the greater innovator, while his near contemporary Archie Smith is best remembered today as a gifted marine painter of traditional gaff-rigged yachts.

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Kir:

Bingo!

 

You got it. With the origami method you get what you get. You have no idea of the hydrostatics. Of course if you don;t know what hydrostatics are tat is not a problem.

You can't do stability studies because you have no lines drawing. This is what I have been trying to say.

 

Fuck. Finally someone gets it.

 

Shark: Very funny.

 

That's ridiculous, if you are good at descriptive geometry you can do lines drawing of developable surfaces by hand.

 

Drawn in the 60s by Philippe Harlé before computers were affordable :

 

640.jpg

 

Ok, Origami is a bit harder than chines but if you are good at drawing these surfaces, there is no reason why you can't do it.

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Jim:

How about I do just what I like and you do just what you like? What a concept. If you want rules and limitations you don't go to a place called "Anarchy".

Fair 'nuff.

 

There are just sometimes I want to try to perceive nature's harmony in what is apparently anarchy. A character flaw, I guess.

 

 

Anarchy is, by its very nature, fundamentally inharmonious.

 

Anarchy in a simple definition is society without the state. Such a society need not be inharmonious, just lacking central governance. In fact, an anarchist believes such a society is more harmonious and desirable. Unfortunately human beings are generally twats and by nature inharmonius. Dogs are better anarchists.

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Pano:

I have no idea what you are talking about.

Conically developed hulls were common well before anyone knew what a computer was.

All my conically developed hulls were drawn by hand well before I used a computer for drawing lines. I can post some lines for you if you like but I will have to go get a drawing scanned first. There is a simple geometry method well known to designers for hand drawing chined, conically developed hulls. Looks like Harle knew it too.

I have not seen origami shape lines drawings done by hand.

 

Proa:

Thanks for pasting that story on Nat's machine. Sounds like a complex machine.

For some history on drawing hull lines Google Dixon Kemp.

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or to the guy griping about the cost of new cam-belts for his desmo-driven valves:

 

"Nobody NEEDS a bright red DUCATI superbike."

 

It's been said at my buddy's shop. More than once.

 

I think I need one....

 

 

Take a look at the Diavel - it's sex on 2 wheels.

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Pano:

I have no idea what you are talking about.

 

I just don't buy that you can't do hydrostatics and stability because drawing lines of an origami boat is impossible.

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Pano:

I did not say that. You really need to read more carefully before reacting. If we are talking about a precise set of lines relating to a built boat I think it would be hard to start from a drawing and no exactly where you are going when the plates are folded. You could have a rough idea but having drawn hundreds of sets of lines a "rough idea" has never been god enough for me. I want precision. My hand drawn lines plans use a 5h and a 9h pencil lead so I can get very fine lines. A 9h is like drawing with a nail.

 

On the other hand you could bend up and weld you boat without a real set of lines, then take the actual true lines off the hull and work backwards to produce a set of lines. In this manner the lines could be very accurate and represent the exact shape built. The you can calculate to your heart's content. But you already have a hull so if you numbers are less than ideal thee is little you can do.

 

Or, you can begin with a computer program that can simulate the origami method much like Jody did with my alu skiff. The you can have a precise set of lines and calculations prior to cutting the first plate. I like this approach .It leaves room for "design".

 

However, if you cannot produce one authentic set of hull lines for any of your boats then I doubt you can do anything other than guess. Having someone else produce a set of lines well after the boat is finished does not constitute prudent or competent design practice for me.

 

 

Is that more clear?

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I agree with what you say in your last post.

 

I was reacting to "With the origami method you get what you get". Even if some people might do it this way, I don't think that you have to build the boat to get the lines. For a start, even if you can't draw it doing models with incremental changes will eventually give you the shape that you can then draw.

 

Whatever the design method you use, to build an origami boat you don't really need to loft a set of lines as the hull kind of does the lofting! IMHO the hard bit designwise is to make sure that it lofts in a desirable shape and I would like to understand how they do it even if the method isn't very "academic". The heated debate doesn't help and a more civilised anarchy would be nicer!

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Pano:

 

"as the hull kind of does the lofting"

Yes, that's exactly what I am saying or, trying to say.. But if you take the approach where you have a set of target design numbers based on past design experience I can;t see that working with origami. I like to know where I am going with a new design before the builder starts cutting material. I find comfort and confidence having a stability curve early on in the design process even if it is preliminary. My clients expect this.

 

This is one reason I spend so much time working with Jody. I like to define the design elements ahead of the build. You can't change a Cp or move a LCF once you have the hull built. Of course if you know nothing about

Cp's or LCF's you would not worry.

 

Can't say I am much concerned with your subjective view on what is " civilized anarchy". Sounds like an oxymoron to me. Can I direct you to the "ignore" function?

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or to the guy griping about the cost of new cam-belts for his desmo-driven valves:

 

"Nobody NEEDS a bright red DUCATI superbike."

 

It's been said at my buddy's shop. More than once.

 

I think I need one....

 

 

Take a look at the Diavel - it's sex on 2 wheels.

 

 

All Ducatis are sex on two wheels - they are two wheeled Lamborghinis

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"civilized anarchy". Sounds like an oxymoron to me

 

Exactly.

 

Free speech is the right to offend someone, somewhere. Without it you don't have free speech, you have polite conversation.

 

There are plenty of boating sites serving tea and cucumber sandwiches - this place is for those of us who want hard liquor and salsa.

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"civilized anarchy". Sounds like an oxymoron to me

 

Exactly.

 

Free speech is the right to offend someone, somewhere. Without it you don't have free speech, you have polite conversation.

 

There are plenty of boating sites serving tea and cucumber sandwiches - this place is for those of us who want hard liquor and salsa.

Hookers and blow would be nice too.

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Thanks Jon. You put that well. I suggest SailNet if you find CA/SA too rough and tumble. I like it like that.

SN is serving cucumber sammys 24/7.

I'll stick my Vegemite and cheese.

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BS -

Here is a challenge for you.

I give you *for free* a steel 40 foot hull. It has the deck welded on and all hatch/port openings cut. The boat is empty inside, but she is ballasted and has functional steering. No interior, rig, engine, electrical, plumbing, cushions, cleats, etc.

How much money would you spend making this boat into a finished product?

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Kir:

Bingo!

 

You got it. With the origami method you get what you get. You have no idea of the hydrostatics. Of course if you don;t know what hydrostatics are tat is not a problem.

You can't do stability studies because you have no lines drawing. This is what I have been trying to say.

 

Fuck. Finally someone gets it.

 

Shark: Very funny.

 

That's ridiculous, if you are good at descriptive geometry you can do lines drawing of developable surfaces by hand.

 

Drawn in the 60s by Philippe Harlé before computers were affordable :

 

640.jpg

 

Ok, Origami is a bit harder than chines but if you are good at drawing these surfaces, there is no reason why you can't do it.

 

 

I believe that somewhere on one of these threads, BS implied that he started with a chine hull drawing something like this, worked out the panel shapes, then pieced/joined them together in origami style. I can see that could be a starting point, but suspect that some practice/intuition is required to get the result you want. With this drawing, its easy to guess that the chine could be replaced by a bend from somewhere around the 2nd station forward. Some adjustment in the bow profile might be needed. Not so easy to see what would work aft.

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I'm afraid I often refer to sailing anarchy as "sailing anoraky": I don't know if the anorak carries the same freight in the States as symbol of a rather small minded obsession: train spotters for instance wear anoraks, and autograph collectors.

 

Despite my glee at the pun, and despite my furtive shame at spending time thinking about boats instead of doing something more productive, the anorak quip is not true of you guys and girls.

 

Much as it's not nice seeing people having a row, like BS and BP, they are at least doing so from informed positions: the one does know about building cheap boats in backyards, and the other does know about professionally produced high quality yachts, about the history and process of yacht design. Going toe to toe has been an interesting exploration of what boats mean to different people.

 

This is infinitely better than a series of speculative discussions on subjects that none of the participants know anything about, which in my brief encounters with other fora is their principal currency.

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" its easy to guess "

 

That Jon is my point. It's about guessing. When Jody worked out my skiff origami method there was not guessing. We used a program that showed us exactly what was happening to the shape.

 

I'm going to the yard to see the deck put on hull No. 1 this afternoon. I could have guessed at the "design" and imagine the result when they tried to put the deck on the hull. "Just trim off the excess."

Nope, my work is in a very different world than the one BS works in. I like to be the one in control of hull shape.

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