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      Abbreviated rules   07/28/2017

      Underdawg did an excellent job of explaining the rules.  Here's the simplified version: Don't insinuate Pedo.  Warning and or timeout for a first offense.  PermaFlick for any subsequent offenses Don't out members.  See above for penalties.  Caveat:  if you have ever used your own real name or personal information here on the forums since, like, ever - it doesn't count and you are fair game. If you see spam posts, report it to the mods.  We do not hang out in every thread 24/7 If you see any of the above, report it to the mods by hitting the Report button in the offending post.   We do not take action for foul language, off-subject content, or abusive behavior unless it escalates to persistent stalking.  There may be times that we might warn someone or flick someone for something particularly egregious.  There is no standard, we will know it when we see it.  If you continually report things that do not fall into rules #1 or 2 above, you may very well get a timeout yourself for annoying the Mods with repeated whining.  Use your best judgement. Warnings, timeouts, suspensions and flicks are arbitrary and capricious.  Deal with it.  Welcome to anarchy.   If you are a newbie, there are unwritten rules to adhere to.  They will be explained to you soon enough.  
IStream

Origami Boat Thread

13,755 posts in this topic

 

 

Here in Canada, all water below the high tide mark is public. Private ownership of anything below the extreme high tide line is not allowed, the opposite of laws in the US.

 

Brent, while that is generally true in Canada, there are many exceptions to that rule, especially around harbours. While they are no longer easy to get, there is such a thing as a water lot in Canada. There are many of them in and around the harbour I live on. Historically, like upland properties, submerged lands within navigable waters are under the jurisdiction of respective provincial crown agencies or, in some instances, a federal crown agency. A water lot is established when a patent describing the land is created by the provincial or federal Crown usually through the issuance of an Order-in-Council. The appropriate land title or land registry office will then create an abstract of title for the water lot area. The abstract of title is a chronological statement of the instruments and events under which a person is entitled to property. As water lots can have an impact on the rights of other private and public interests (e.g., upland owners' riparian rights and public water navigation), they are subject to numerous acts and regulations. In addition, crown agencies have preferred to lease water lot areas rather than sell the fee simple interests, although there are instances where the fee simple interests of water lots are held privately, such as those water lots in Sydney Harbour.

 

Around Halifax there are several instances of pre-confederation lots, where the "land" includes 100 ft or so out into the water. This has caused some issues where people have done totally legal things that are viewed by their neighbors as unacceptable - infilling, docks and other construction that block the shoreline, etc. Probably not a big issue in BC...

 

 

Anyone who needs ownership of submerged land in coastal waters to permit the construction of large wharves, causeways, infills or breakwaters can still apply for a Crown Lands Deed or Grant: Water Lot Grant. This grant does not expire.

 

https://www.novascotia.ca/sns/paal/dnr/paal064.asp

 

If you like reading the history of this sort of thing: http://www.lians.ca/sites/default/files/documents/EbbAndFlowOfWaterLaw-CorsanoRisk_(00012380).PDF

 

If you are a lawyer: http://www.lians.ca/sites/default/files/documents/2010-06-21_WaterlotPresentation_Gordon(1).pdf

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Anyone have the design specs on RAGTIME? Always been one of my favorites.

Original name was Infidel. Designer was John Spenser. P!enty of prior discussion on SA.

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Thread drift to Rags is probably a very very good thing.

Chines can be nice.

 

Tummy-tuck scars don't rock my boat, and for me they negate any cheap/fast benefit.

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No, they save you so much in moorage and haulout costs, that they let you get such a huge headstart on single keel cruisers, that they put you far ahead, long before the single keelers leave the dock and make their escape.

 

 

Silas Crosby a twin keeler had a race with Exit ,a single keel sistership. They were matched on all points of wind, in 15 knots, except to windward, where Exit had about a 5% advantage.

 

In the 80s, 80% of my clients wanted single keelers. Now with rising moorage costs, haulout costs, restrictions and bureuacracy 80% want twin keels, and many of those who went for single keels, wish they had twin keels. Here in Canada, all water below the high tide mark is public. Private ownership of anything below the extreme high tide line is not allowed, the opposite of laws in the US.

 

 

What sort of speeds did they see during the race Brent? And how much of a difference in pointing ability did the bilge keel make? Just that I really don't have much of an idea what performance we're talking about with your boats.

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Say - just for the hell of it you had it in mind to build a steel Ragtime. Possible ? and if built to equal strength, what would it weigh ?

 

Impossible to judge them on hypothetical longevity, as Ragtime has enjoyed such exquisite ownership enthusiasm over the years - another sign of a true classic - how early and widely recognized as outstanding was it ?

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Shark:

RAGTIME was chartered by a Seattle group for the TransPac in about 1977 maybe 76 and at that time it was widely recognized as an off the wind flyer ten years after launch. I don't recall when I was first aware of it.

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Say - just for the hell of it you had it in mind to build a steel Ragtime. Possible ? and if built to equal strength, what would it weigh ?

 

Impossible to judge them on hypothetical longevity, as Ragtime has enjoyed such exquisite ownership enthusiasm over the years - another sign of a true classic - how early and widely recognized as outstanding was it ?

 

Forget steel, build her in modern composite, you could lighten the hull and add to the ballast. STABILITY!!

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Even with a "light" steel hull and structure you'd be so much heavier that the resulting lack of ballast would really impact stability. Boats that skinny have to get stability from ballast and low VCG.

1/8" steel plate weighs 5.1 lbs. per square foot compared to at the very most about 2.25 lbs per sq, foot for .75" fir plywood. It could be as low as 1.9 lbs. per sq. ft. when sanded. Imagine the structure you would need to support a 1/8" steel plate shell. If you increase the shell to 3/16" pl you get 7.65 lbs. per sq. ft. That is 3.82 times heavier than the steel shell at 3/16" pl. That's before internal structure.

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That's how Yves-Marie does it Brent. It says nothing about how you do it. Notice where he says "Checking all along with the hydrostatic function".

I have worked with Yves-Marie. He's a nut for details and accuracy. He would have a handle on the weights from the start and he would most certainly know the weight of the boat prior to launch.

With that program you can track shell weight easily as you work through the design. It;s the same thing, using the Rhino program, Jody and I are doing right now for Dave's boat. It sure beats guessing.

Cooper%20areas%20and%20weights%202_zpsuv

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Well, Atlantis orbited the planet nearly 5,000 times on its 33 missions over a 26 year career and retired to the Kennedy Space center, so I'd say it worked out pretty good.

 

I mean, doing 17,000 mph in a used spaceship is pretty cool

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That's how Yves-Marie does it Brent. It says nothing about how you do it. Notice where he says "Checking all along with the hydrostatic function".

I have worked with Yves-Marie. He's a nut for details and accuracy. He would have a handle on the weights from the start and he would most certainly know the weight of the boat prior to launch.

With that program you can track shell weight easily as you work through the design. It;s the same thing, using the Rhino program, Jody and I are doing right now for Dave's boat. It sure beats guessing.

Cooper%20areas%20and%20weights%202_zpsuv

When it comes to function , over 3 1/2 decades of experience is far more reliable and accurate than your predictions. I'm more interested in how they actually sail, than how they are predicted to sail. Your claim that after the facts calculations are more accurate than how a boat actually sails ,is like claiming that you can predict tomorrow's weather more accurately than I can predict yesterdays weather. With a new design, you would be right. On a 36 year old , extremely well proven design, you are anything but.

 

That's great if you only want to build & sail 36 year old boats.

 

Otherwise? not so much.

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The safety and reliability of the space shuttles Columbia and Atlantis , was predicted by some of the top experts available, using some of the world's best computers .

How did that work out?

 

 

Quite well, actually! The Space Shuttle had a predicted failure rate of 2%.

However, they lost 2 shuttles in 135 flights, for a failure rate of only 1.5%.

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The safety and reliability of the space shuttles Columbia and Atlantis , was predicted by some of the top experts available, using some of the world's best computers .

How did that work out?

 

 

Quite well, actually! The Space Shuttle had a predicted failure rate of 2%.

However, they lost 2 shuttles in 135 flights, for a failure rate of only 1.5%.

 

 

By the end of its final mission, Atlantis had orbited the Earth a total of 4,848 times, traveling nearly 126,000,000 miles or more than 525 times the distance from the Earth to the Moon.

 

Columbia managed 125,204,911 miles before failure. Challenger 25,803,939 miles before failure. Discovery 148,221,675 miles. Endeavour 122,883,151 miles.

 

Yes, that adds up to 550 million miles, 2 accidents. Not perfect, no. Not too bad I'd say.

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BS:

You are making things up again. I challenge you to produce the quote where I said "Your claim that after the facts calculations are more accurate than how a boat actually sails ," You are a liar and a fool. The VPP programs are an estimate of a boats potential performance and only that. They can be a very important tool in refining a design. But you would know nothing about that. You have zero experience with such programs.

 

I think the posters here know me well enough to know I would never make such an absurd statement. Do you really think they are that stupid?

 

Produce the quote.

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The Tahiti ketch the BS mentions is probably Weston Farmer's Tahitiana design. Farmer though he was being very clever getting a nearly round-bottom design by using the bending properties of steel. However, any reports I ever saw from builders indicated it was too complicated and took too long to build.

 

And, of course, the Tahiti ketch was a dubious starting point, being a overly conservative design meant for amateur builders.

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The best designers today have learned to make their boats more and more efficient. Clients like that. The experienced client understands the difference. My clients would never settle for BS performance or aesthetics. As for how effective my approach is I have work back log to prove that it works very well. My work speaks for itself. You can't undo reality BS.

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" Can you do it in your backyard, outside , without a cover?"



I doubt anyone here wants to.

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Well, no - of course not Bob - it'd be silly. I just wondered if Brent could tell us how heavy the boat would be - to make something like the original lines - post 353 ( thanks Salazar ! )

 

I understand you feel going offshore in anything but the most robust shapes is madness - I get that, but what is your best back-of-the-envelope guess on the hull & deck - if you could "origami" something close to that gorgeous chined shape ?

 

Aw, Brent - don't be petty. Have you ever seen Icon ? and Stealth Chicken has taken great care of it's crew on several Transpacs - don't start talking racin' sea-miles to Bob. Just. Don't. You see, he draws boats for people that DON'T run them on fucking reefs. It's called navigation. Teak maintenence was my job on the FT10.

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Shark:

BS boat owners think navigation is over rated.

 

I do not expect BS to appreciate ICON or STEALTH CHICKEN or FREE RANGE CHICKEN. He does not have the eye and he no frame of reference.

 

I really ,like a good looking, fine sailing boat. I have lots of them.

Esprit%2037_zpsdbocxkld.jpg

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"She was plywood, not a material for longevity"

 

Are you kidding me BS? "Was"?

 

RAGTIME is alive and well and still racing and looking more beautiful than ever. Not a good example for plywood's longevity?. You need to get out more.

 

RAGTIME is now 50 years old. "not a material for longevity"?

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I would not believe a number you posted BS. You are "integrity challenged".

 

No comment on your stupid quote about the death of RAGTIME?

 

Working on my ham glaze:

Orange juice

orange zest

Kaluah

Espresso

Dark sugar

Chinese red chili paste

 

I'll let you know who it works out. I cut the chili paste in half due to my grand kids being here. It sure smells great.

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. That butt is butt ugly""

 

Like I keep saying BS, you have no eye. You lack that gift required if you are going to be a good yacht designer. No frame of reference for aesthetics.

You cannot post one example of a great looking BS boat.

BD%202_zps9afntlqn.jpg

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To my eye BS they are OK boats but crude in their aesthetics. Any good looks they might have is not due to your participation in their design. It's in spite of it.

Baba40anotherreachpic_zpsdf5589ac.jpg

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. That butt is butt ugly""

 

Like I keep saying BS, you have no eye. You lack that gift required if you are going to be a good yacht designer. No frame of reference for aesthetics.

You cannot post one example of a great looking BS boat.

BD%202_zps9afntlqn.jpg

Someone just did !

"Prairie Made"

Or haven't you noticed?

"Silas Crosby" has also been posted, elsewhere on this site.

 

Sorry Brent - those boats are just O/K looking - in a plain and old fashioned way - they are not "great looking".

 

Lets let the public decide.

 

post-95343-0-08509900-1459119595_thumb.jpg

post-95343-0-08509900-1459119595_thumb.jpg

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. That butt is butt ugly""

 

Like I keep saying BS, you have no eye. You lack that gift required if you are going to be a good yacht designer. No frame of reference for aesthetics.

You cannot post one example of a great looking BS boat.

BD%202_zps9afntlqn.jpg

Someone just did !

"Prairie Made"

Or haven't you noticed?

"Silas Crosby" has also been posted, elsewhere on this site.

Prairie Maid. Great name when spelled right. The prairie and the sea are both vast in many ways and should be served/preserved by us fools. Prairie Maid is a well-built well-crafted boat, not a beautiful boat. The hull sucks at the sea on the windward side because it is flat through about a third. I would cut out the plate between the keel and rudder skeg, that's just a silly addition to the drag.

 

I don't know the builder, but well-done to you and that's amoung the best yacht names I have heard. Yeah, you built yourself a yacht.

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I think I might have to walk over to the owners of Ragtime and tell them the boat on their dock is no longer.

 

I think they might be surprised.

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I think I might have to walk over to the owners of Ragtime and tell them the boat on their dock is no longer.

 

 

 

I think they might be surprised.

Ragtime is also among the best of all yacht names.

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Shark:

RAGTIME was chartered by a Seattle group for the TransPac in about 1977 maybe 76 and at that time it was widely recognized as an off the wind flyer ten years after launch. I don't recall when I was first aware of it.

She was plywood, not a material for longevity.Her big sister "Buccaneer, "was moored behind me in Auckland, after doing great in the Sydney to Hobart race.Locals said she was great in those strong winds, but had too short a rig for less windy areas.

 

My boat is 33 years old, and built of ply. Pity i've been putting so much work into it lately as its obviously fucked.

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For photos of my designs, click on http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats

Then click on the photos section. Tried moving them here, but even computer nerds, who have a lot more computer knowledge than I have trouble doing it.

So for those too lazy to click on the above link, tough shit!

You move them!

 

You are such a freakin' moron, Brent.

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24" of freeboard on the i.O.R. stern Think about that .

I thought it was interesting that the boat was so fast and yet it has so much deadrise. I don't recall seeing that much deadrise on more modern boats. Don't they tend to go more of a semicircle that is flat at centerline?

Weren't the Santa Cruz boats somewhat like that, with a fair amount of deadrise? I guess deadrise is not as slow as one would think.

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I was walking the dock down to my boat in Edmonds when I saw this boat pull to the guest dock. I went over to see if they needed a hand [they didn't] and talk about their boat. For anyone who doesn't know, it is a Bob Perry design from, I think, 1978 [http://sailboatdata.com/viewrecord.asp?class_id=2674].

A Lafitte 44.

The owners had just bought the boat a few months ago. They told me that it had already been around the world twice and they were planning to go offshore in the future. They said that even though the boat was 30 years old it was in great structural condition. They were just planning on updating the systems before they left. Very nice couple.

I looked the boat over and it was in great shape. Even the teak decks were good.

I don't see how you can do much better than that. 30 years old, twice around the world and ready to go again.

So far none of the owners have needed a heavy stell rust bucket for their sailing. I guess they don't plan on sailing around the world "by feel", i.e. hitting things to know where they are.

Anyway, the new owners were very happy with their old fiberglass boat.


I always liked those boats, very interesting arrangement down below.

I can't wait to get my new Bob Perry boat built and on the water. I have no desire for a metal boat.

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I'm with Jon. SILAS CROSBY is OK looking in a very dated way but far from beautiful.. The paint job does not help and nor do those windows. It's not a look I would choose to emulate. But to each his own.

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I would feel less than successful if after 30 years of "designing" boats if I could only come up with two very questionable examples of "beautiful" boats.

 

Two?

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I was walking the dock down to my boat in Edmonds when I saw this boat pull to the guest dock. I went over to see if they needed a hand [they didn't] and talk about their boat. For anyone who doesn't know, it is a Bob Perry design from, I think, 1978 [http://sailboatdata.com/viewrecord.asp?class_id=2674].

A Lafitte 44.

The owners had just bought the boat a few months ago. They told me that it had already been around the world twice and they were planning to go offshore in the future. They said that even though the boat was 30 years old it was in great structural condition. They were just planning on updating the systems before they left. Very nice couple.

I looked the boat over and it was in great shape. Even the teak decks were good.

I don't see how you can do much better than that. 30 years old, twice around the world and ready to go again.

So far none of the owners have needed a heavy stell rust bucket for their sailing. I guess they don't plan on sailing around the world "by feel", i.e. hitting things to know where they are.

Anyway, the new owners were very happy with their old fiberglass boat.

 

I always liked those boats, very interesting arrangement down below.

I can't wait to get my new Bob Perry boat built and on the water. I have no desire for a metal boat.

Dave,

Was this SohCahToa? She was at my dock for sale for a couple of years by a group of young guys who sailed her around the world. She needed a lot of work but I recently saw her up on stands at Seaview West and figured she must've sold.

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IStream:

That Lafitte 44 the young guys bought needed a lot of work when they bought it. Not sure they worked on it at all. I think they just took off. Youth!

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IStream:

That Lafitte 44 the young guys bought needed a lot of work when they bought it. Not sure they worked on it at all. I think they just took off. Youth!

 

 

Given how much wear and tear your friend Jeff is discovering after 3/4 of a circumnavigation, I think I'd be looking for an evaluation not just by a surveyor, but from a sailor with many miles at sea. And a good rigger.

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Semi:

The young guys completed their circumnavigation without a hitch. I've seen the boat since they got back. It does need a heavy dose of TLC. I have not met the current owners.

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I did not catch the name of the boat of the Lafitte 44 and I didn't go down below. The hailing port was someplace in Minnesota. The new owners seemed very happy to get an offshore capable boat for such a low price.I remember reading years ago about one of the pioneers of fiberglass boat building [John Valdez seems to ring a bell?] was lamenting how long a well built fiberglass boat would last. He said that their biggest competitor in selling new boats was the vast numbers of good used fiberglass boats for sale.

I took a couple of pictures of the Lafitte 44 and the happy new owners, but I am not set up to upload to CA. I did send them to Bob.

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Here is the Lafitte at Shilshole. I like the spring of that sheerline. These are very stout boats. I tell the entire story of Lafitte on my blog. It's a bit different than most production boat stories and I had to check with the parties involved to make sure it was OK to paint in the true details. They built about 60 of these. Some had Airex core. Even the ones without Airex, solid laminate, used all Airex foam for the structural core, i.e. floors and longitudinals. It was an expensive way to build a boat.

 

Good to see you here Smack!

Lafitte%20at%20shilshole_zpsfi0wrmko.jpg

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I'm afraid I often refer to sailing anarchy as "sailing anoraky": I don't know if the anorak carries the same freight in the States as symbol of a rather small minded obsession: train spotters for instance wear anoraks, and autograph collectors.

 

Despite my glee at the pun, and despite my furtive shame at spending time thinking about boats instead of doing something more productive, the anorak quip is not true of you guys and girls.

 

Much as it's not nice seeing people having a row, like BS and BP, they are at least doing so from informed positions: the one does know about building cheap boats in backyards, and the other does know about professionally produced high quality yachts, about the history and process of yacht design. Going toe to toe has been an interesting exploration of what boats mean to different people.

 

This is infinitely better than a series of speculative discussions on subjects that none of the participants know anything about, which in my brief encounters with other fora is their principal currency.

Thing sure go a lot smoother without Smackdaddy. I wonder if moderators on other sites will notice, or catch on.

 

 

You rang? I've provided more clear evidence that shows you're a lying douchemonkey than anyone on any forum ever has. For you things "go a lot smoother" when no one is calling out your lies. So try again.

 

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Interesting that you would bring up the subject of moderators Brent.

 

Would those be the ones who, after sending you on vacation, finally banned you permanently from SN? From what I gather they are not the only ones to have done it.

 

I don't recall Smack even getting a vacation from them.

 

Maybe they have caught on.

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"and has self steered downwind to for 30 miles, with out any kind of windvane or auto pilot "

 

Making up stories again BS. More BS from BS.

 

"That is the main reason they ban me. The rest is just excuses"

 

You are delusional. You get banned because you are a jackass,

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My clients would not want a BS boat is you gave it to them free. It's not always about money for some people.

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This is for Brent,

 

I gather that this thread was for you to share your preferred 'Origami' method of folding up a steel hull. I have a project that might interest you and since I am just a Arkansas hill billy I don't need all the fancy methods that get bantered about here. I want a canal barge inspired by the English 'narrowboats'. They are very popular in England as holiday charters and many are fit out as liveaboards. Since they get squeezed through ancient hand operated locks that are only 7' wide and the canals aren't much wider and rafting up with your fellow vessels seems to be the norm, I want a stout cheap hull that can be built in a week or two. Just joking at that last but that seems to be the crux of much of the derision going on here on this thread. I have a design at 62' by 7' and most of the hull is a parallel midbody of constant section. You should have not problem folding up the strakes (swims in the English vernacular) at the ends to make the bluff bow and stern typical of the narrow boats.

 

I can post some images and plans here if you would be interested and perhaps you could illustrate just how you process proceeds.

 

Merle

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Yes please! Canal boats are awesome!

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However, just because steel doesn't burn, doesn't mean it can't fail in a fire.

If you seal a boat on fire airtight, the fire cant get enough oxygen to go very far. My brother, a lifetime fireman said he has seen this in lafge department stores. It also works on wood and plastic boats.

 

 

I bet Bruce Farr doesn't have to deal with non sequiturs like this... aren't you glad you 'participate', Bob ? Hows that for insight ? - works for TARGET stores, must be just the thing onboard....sigh

 

close her up airtight. Badda bing, badda boom.

 

might not even have to recoat the interior, as the rust won't burn. Or something

 

An Aussie friend had a 34ft Colvin Saugeen Witch ( Kiunga) anchored in Easter Vancouver Harbour with an oil stove left running aboard. That was during Dickensons brief experiment with aluminium tops. The top melted out, and the fire burned about a three ft circle in the foam and paneling above the stove. Then, despite many gallons of diesel spilled around the stove, the fire went out.There was not even enough oxygen to burn thru the plastic vents and the wooden hatches before it ran out of oxygen.I recently had a similar experience. It is hard to fight the tendency to open her up and try fight the fire, but sealing her and waiting is the best way to put the fire out.Counterintuitive, but it works,even on wood and plastic boats.

 

How many boat fires have you put out.

 

 

None, I'm not stupid enough to set my boat on fire.

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Brent,

 

Here is the basic hull form that I have worked out for my Arkansas Ark. I just want something to knock around the Lake of the Ozarks and maybe head down river to New Orleans for Mardi Gras. Who knows, the ICW along the Gulf Coast could take me all the way down to the Keys for OctoberFest. I'd love to see some of them painted ladies. And I mean the real ladies, not them lady boys...

 

 

Fest2002A053.jpg

 

How bout them puppies?!

 

Merle

 

K9uZvsm.png

 

hA6P7xu.png

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None, I'm not stupid enough to set my boat on fire.

 

Ish,

 

This fellow Merle sounds like he might be just the type to set his boat on fire. Good match for Brent and I wouldn't mind being there when he hits Key West. Sounds like he has his priorities sorted out.

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None, I'm not stupid enough to set my boat on fire.

 

Ish,

 

This fellow Merle sounds like he might be just the type to set his boat on fire. Good match for Brent and I wouldn't mind being there when he hits Key West. Sounds like he has his priorities sorted out.

 

 

For a bit of light relief...

 

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"Her prismatic coefficient is .54"

 

That's a reasonable number for the type. I would have guessed lower.

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I very much doubt he even knows the Cp. ,54 is textbook "medium" so he went with that. I too would have guessed lower with those anemic ends. It's hard to calculate a Cp when you don't have a set of lines.

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It was unintentional Rasper. However, due to her volume distribution I think the Cp would be significantly higher.

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Well, Atlantis orbited the planet nearly 5,000 times on its 33 missions over a 26 year career and retired to the Kennedy Space center, so I'd say it worked out pretty good.

 

I mean, doing 17,000 mph in a used spaceship is pretty cool

Once in orbit ,inertia keeps them going ,and there is not much that can happen, in those terms unless you get hit by something, a crap shoot whatever you do. It's getting them up and back safely which is the real challenge. After that, the number of orbits is largely irrelevant.

 

 

Damn Dude, Miss the point much ?? Or do you just ignore anything that isn't to your point of view ? YOU Brought up the Shuttles Columbia and Atlantis as examples of how insightful design was inferior to your......methods ? All I was illustrating is that Space Orbiter Atlantis did exactly what it was designed to do and at the end of it's service life retired to Florida, like most government workers. You, on the other hand completely spaced the point. But then I suppose you think the shuttles should have been made of steel.

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Interesting that you would bring up the subject of moderators Brent.

 

Would those be the ones who, after sending you on vacation, finally banned you permanently from SN? From what I gather they are not the only ones to have done it.

 

I don't recall Smack even getting a vacation from them.

 

Maybe they have caught on.

Smackdady has been attacking every post I made, ever since I said I contribute my surplus money to women's shelters and transition houses (which he said he found disgusting).

 

I tell them how to build their own stuff ,without buying from the ship swindlers. Ship swindlers ( their sponsors) don't like that.

That is the main reason they ban me.

 

You keep telling yourself that Brent. :rolleyes:

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However, just because steel doesn't burn, doesn't mean it can't fail in a fire.

If you seal a boat on fire airtight, the fire cant get enough oxygen to go very far. My brother, a lifetime fireman said he has seen this in lafge department stores. It also works on wood and plastic boats.

 

 

I bet Bruce Farr doesn't have to deal with non sequiturs like this... aren't you glad you 'participate', Bob ? Hows that for insight ? - works for TARGET stores, must be just the thing onboard....sigh

 

close her up airtight. Badda bing, badda boom.

 

might not even have to recoat the interior, as the rust won't burn. Or something

 

How many boat fires have you put out.

 

 

None - never set a boat on fire.

 

Never got a boat off a coral reef either - never put a boat on a coral reef.

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I think Shu was referring to the CP of the Ta-Ta's of the party girl in Key West. Those looked about .54 to me and should have been significantly lower at her age.

 

Maybe Merle could comment as to his preferences in this matter.

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Interesting that you would bring up the subject of moderators Brent.

 

Would those be the ones who, after sending you on vacation, finally banned you permanently from SN? From what I gather they are not the only ones to have done it.

 

I don't recall Smack even getting a vacation from them.

 

Maybe they have caught on.

Smackdady has been attacking every post I made, ever since I said I contribute my surplus money to women's shelters and transition houses (which he said he found disgusting).

 

 

Heh-heh. That's a good one. It's another lie from Brent Swain, the lying douche, but it's a good one.

 

Though you've never yet been able to do it one single time with the pathetic, mentally-challenged accusations you continually make against Bob - produce the quote and I'll defer to your awesomeness. Otherwise, you're a lying douche.

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For anyone who cares, here is the long list of lies and incredible stupidity spewed by Brent Swain - straight from his own crusty lips...and countered with reality:

 

http://www.sailnet.com/forums/1088439-post1058.html

 

Be forewarned, it's epic and very long. So have a stiff drink handy.

 

Consider it a PSA. Anyone who listens to this guy - or, worse, gives him a single cent is a complete fool.

 

PS - It's got the infamous 183 degree stability claim. It's not a typo as you'll clearly see. It's just a very weak mind.

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It's CA so you can do as you like, but I really wish you guys would keep your juvenile fights over on sailnet or offline. It's extremely tedious and frankly narcissistic.

 

I am aware that Brent said crappy things about Bob's family. That sucks. He should have apologized long ago. If he makes shitty comments about Bob's work in one of Bob's thread, arguing back is obviously to be expected. It's not that thread.

 

No one is really interested in some internet grudge match you seem to want to fan.

 

Can we talk more about canal boats now? That's a really interesting application for what Brent does.

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Talk about whatever you want. I don't care. But if Brent is going to continue to lie and drag me into things, I'm going to set the record straight...every time.

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Come on fellas, I'm just a hick and want a canal boat that won't set me back an oil rig or two and can serve the purpose with little upkeep. No fancy foo-foo stuff for this ol boy. I thought I would see what Brent could do for me. VJM has it right, a canal boat should be the perfect hull for Brent's method and I want to see what his thoughts are.

 

If I had wanted a carbon bass boat I might have gone to Bob, but that may still come...

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Come on fellas, I'm just a hick and want a canal boat that won't set me back an oil rig or two and can serve the purpose with little upkeep. No fancy foo-foo stuff for this ol boy. I thought I would see what Brent could do for me. VJM has it right, a canal boat should be the perfect hull for Brent's method and I want to see what his thoughts are.

 

If I had wanted a carbon bass boat I might have gone to Bob, but that may still come...

 

Where do you sit?

 

Spector-Chris-Kael-CK-4-620x194.jpg?a684

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Merle:

Shu's Cp joke went clear over my head.

 

Vjm:

Relax, it's called Cruising Anarchy and anything goes here. We don't need people telling each other what they can and cannot say. I can understand it bothering some so I would suggest SailNet where they have moderators. The kind that just kicked BS off the site. It's a good place if you like moderators. There is also the "ignore" function if you want to screen someone out. It's up to you. I suggest you stick around.

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That's why the first thing I typed was that it is CA so obviously it's a free for all. But that goes both ways. Sailnet is beyond dead, and the signal to noise ratio here is much better for learning things. Thanks for reminding me of the ignore feature. It's such a pain in mobile that I always forget it exists.

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Down in our neck of the woods we have an expression, 'run what ya brung'. This thread could learn from that and let any who wants to show what they got to brung and then run with it. I just want to see if my canal boat can be 'Origami'ed'. I'm sure there are plenty of coonasses down in Louisiana that could use comealongs and chainfalls and fold something up for me but they don't, won't or can't show me any evidence on paper (or computer screen) of what I really might end up with. It looks like I might find some answers here, how bout it?

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Bob,

It went over my head too :blink:. It was only when Rasper pointed it out that I modified my comment to reflect a more appropriate Cp for the illustrated vessel.

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My deal with BS isn't his designs. If he figured out how to fold up steel into a boat - then good on him B)

His endless obvious bullcrap along the lines of spending two hours a year maintaining a steel boat and making complete boats for far less than the cost of raw materials annoys me. I have wired new construction 40 foot boats and BS likely thinks it can be done in a day for $43.95 or so. Maybe he mines his own lead for batteries and copper for wires. He has a rubber plant he can make insulation out of too :rolleyes:

The cost of steel for the shell of a 36 is less than $9,000, period. You say no? Have you priced it?Didn't think so!

That is not less than the cost of materials. It is the cost of materials.The last two boats I was involved in got their masts and rigs for free, far less than the cost of materials. One was given a rotten old boat, with mast, rig, sails , winches, anchors, rodes running rigging, etc, by someone just wanting to get rid of her. There are many such opportunities available today. You say free is less than the cost of materials bought new?Absolutely!Used sails, in almost new condition sell for far less than the cost of materials . My first boat, except for a depth sounder and 12 v flashlight battery, had the same electrics as Slocum used , as did my second ,for its first 4 years of life. I found enough wire in scrapyard to wire her, for $15, when I did, most of which is still in use, no problems, after 28 years.

Ditto a lot of the wiring gear aboard. No buying a lot of super expensive, and fragile (according to one charter boat skipper I know) yachtie electrics, is not the only option.

My clients are far to wise and resourceful to buy everything new, at ship swindlers retail prices, to pay what you are assuming they pay. Yes, we do build our boats for a fraction the cost of new retail prices.

So, I assume your clients get your services at 10c to the dollar, just like they pay for the boat?

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For anyone who cares, here is the long list of lies and incredible stupidity spewed by Brent Swain - straight from his own crusty lips...and countered with reality:

 

http://www.sailnet.com/forums/1088439-post1058.html

 

Be forewarned, it's epic and very long. So have a stiff drink handy.

 

Consider it a PSA. Anyone who listens to this guy - or, worse, gives him a single cent is a complete fool.

 

PS - It's got the infamous 183 degree stability claim. It's not a typo as you'll clearly see. It's just a very weak mind.

This was just hysterically funny. Thanks for doing all the work to put it up. My favorite so far. It sounds like BS is suggesting boats for some kind of a nautical demolition derby.. I hope to be a long ways away from any of his boats and their owners when I am out on the water. It just doesn't sound safe to be on the same ocean as these BS disciples and their mania to run into things like coral reefs, land masses and other boats.

Originally Posted by Brent Swain View Post
The aluminim 28 footer was a boat called Carmela which I was told was a Perry design.It is somewhere in Victoria, I dont know exactly were.

When one of my 36 footers, the first one I built, pounded for 16 days in 8 to 12 ft surf on the west coast of the Baja for 16 days and was pulled off thru 8 to 12 ft surf,with no significant dammage, I know it is stronger than a fibreglass boat ,which would have broken up in the first few hours. When she T-boned a CBC barge in front of gramas pub in Gibsons at hull speed, with zero damage, I know she is strong.

When one did a single season passage thru the NW passage, with zero damage, I know it is strong. When one pounded across 300 yards of Fijian coral reef in big surf ,then was puled back across the same reef with zero damage, then later collided with a freighter in Gibralter with no significant damage, I know it is strong. Try those tricks in a Benny. See how significant your numbers jugling is.

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Originally Posted by Brent Swain View Post

 

The aluminim 28 footer was a boat called Carmela which I was told was a Perry design.It is somewhere in Victoria, I dont know exactly were.

When one of my 36 footers, the first one I built, pounded for 16 days in 8 to 12 ft surf on the west coast of the Baja for 16 days and was pulled off thru 8 to 12 ft surf,with no significant dammage, I know it is stronger than a fibreglass boat ,which would have broken up in the first few hours. When she T-boned a CBC barge in front of gramas pub in Gibsons at hull speed, with zero damage, I know she is strong.

When one did a single season passage thru the NW passage, with zero damage, I know it is strong. When one pounded across 300 yards of Fijian coral reef in big surf ,then was puled back across the same reef with zero damage, then later collided with a freighter in Gibralter with no significant damage, I know it is strong. Try those tricks in a Benny. See how significant your numbers jugling is.

 

JFC. Sounds like Brent Swain's customers are worse than Rimas loose on the high seas. He sounds proud of the lack of seamanship going on. lol. Bloody hell.

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For the record I have never designed a 28' aluminum boat. This is another case of BS making things up. It's very tiresome.

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"So, I assume your clients get your services at 10c to the dollar, just like they pay for the boat? "

BS for 10c to the dollar? He's over charging!

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For anyone who cares, here is the long list of lies and incredible stupidity spewed by Brent Swain - straight from his own crusty lips...and countered with reality:

 

http://www.sailnet.com/forums/1088439-post1058.html

 

Be forewarned, it's epic and very long. So have a stiff drink handy.

 

Consider it a PSA. Anyone who listens to this guy - or, worse, gives him a single cent is a complete fool.

 

PS - It's got the infamous 183 degree stability claim. It's not a typo as you'll clearly see. It's just a very weak mind.

 

That was 'interesting'...

 

So, Brent S is to steel construction what Doug L is to foiling!

 

It never ends

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Bob,

It went over my head too :blink:. It was only when Rasper pointed it out that I modified my comment to reflect a more appropriate Cp for the illustrated vessel.

 

 

Shu, I was trying to give you credit for a good joke! I guess my mind is in the gutter.

 

I'm guessing the Cp on that narrowboat is more on the order of .7158 give or take. Certainly higher that the that of the puppies. But everyone loves puppies!

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I'd forgotten about the 56 or 38 or whatever number of through hulls on a Benny that he supposedly saw.

 

Brent really does set the standard for pulling numbers out of his ass.

 

The largest number of through hulls I have ever seen on a sailboat was 18 on a Maple Leaf 65 motorsailer and everyone who saw it commented on the absurd number of them. It was as if every pump had its own skin fitting.

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There's another factor relating to the 'unknowns' of the final shape: The precision of cutting the plates.

Backyard builders aren't going to have CNC plasma cutters, or big Waterjet machines, so these things are going to be hand lofted, and hand cut. The exact size and shape of the cutouts for the darts is going to have a pretty strong effect on the final shape of the hull.

Near as I can tell, the assembly is along the lines of "crank on the come-along until the gap closes, and weld it quick before it goes sprong!"

 

Hmmm... residual stress anyone?

I start with the lines drawing, doing all my calculations on them.

 

Can we see a lines drawing?

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Mad,

 

Here is a lines plan of the canal boat I would like BS to help me with especially in figuring out how to Origami it cheaply in steel. I have another version with a parallel midbody section more in keeping with the traditional cargo barges of England. This one doesn't have that constant mid-section, it is the purdy one!

 

E947Z4m.png

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Are you eliminating the top side chine for ease of build? Aesthetically I think it looks good, it works with the sheer.

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My clients would not want a BS boat is you gave it to them free. It's not always about money for some people.

 

Mine have walked past many a free plastic boat to build in steel .Most have had plastic, and want nothing more to do with them, certainly not yours.

And here we have the crux of the matter.

There are a few people who prefer Mr. Swain's vessels and many others who prefer Mr. Perry's vessels.

Each group is looking for something different than the other group.

No matter how many times Mr. Swain tries to win over the Perry people it is not going to happen. They are looking for something different than what he offers.

Mr. Swain should concentrate on satisfying his clients. Mr. Perry seems quite successful doing just that, serving his clients.

Maybe we can just leave it at that.

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For anyone who cares, here is the long list of lies and incredible stupidity spewed by Brent Swain - straight from his own crusty lips...and countered with reality:

 

http://www.sailnet.com/forums/1088439-post1058.html

 

Be forewarned, it's epic and very long. So have a stiff drink handy.

 

Consider it a PSA. Anyone who listens to this guy - or, worse, gives him a single cent is a complete fool.

 

PS - It's got the infamous 183 degree stability claim. It's not a typo as you'll clearly see. It's just a very weak mind.

 

That was 'interesting'...

 

So, Brent S is to steel construction what Doug L is to foiling!

 

It never ends

 

Much of that was made up or modified by Smack ( which Bob Perry agreed, he does )or taken out of context, like taking a quote from a discussion on religion,

and misrepresenting it as a post on boat building.

 

 

Yet again, you're lying. Anyone who wants to can click on the gray arrow beside your name on any of those quotes in that post. This will link them directly to the post from which the comments came - and they can see that they are your words and see the context for them.

 

Keep trying Brent.

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I'd forgotten about the 56 or 38 or whatever number of through hulls on a Benny that he supposedly saw.

 

Brent really does set the standard for pulling numbers out of his ass.

 

The largest number of through hulls I have ever seen on a sailboat was 18 on a Maple Leaf 65 motorsailer and everyone who saw it commented on the absurd number of them. It was as if every pump had its own skin fitting.

Next time you see a 50 ft benny on the hard, you count them.

Dont touch them . They may break.

 

Well, being very very familiar with a Beneteau 50, I can tell you you can only have 56 or 38 through hulls if you count each one three times.

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Just back fro the boatyard. Big day, exciting and I don't get excited often. Deck went on for "dry fit" today. I'll post a pic or two but I'll post more pics over on the "My Latest project" thread. Might as well have some reality here.

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Just back fro the boatyard. Big day, exciting and I don't get excited often. Deck went on for "dry fit" today. I'll post a pic or two but I'll post more pics over on the "My Latest project" thread. Might as well have some reality here.

So I take it they are "Building it like grandpa drew it"?

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I pulled into the yard this morning about 15 minutes before the deck was lowered into place for the first dry fit. If you go to the "My latest project" I'll post more photos. I took a lot.

deck%208%20elevated_zpsc74ly7ag.jpg

After some careful "trimming" and a couple of dog walks, voila!

deck%209%20finished_zps8g83091o.jpg

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It's a shame she'll be so beautiful and yet so fragile. You know, plastic and all.

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That's a funny looking origami boat - where are the 'folds'?

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Where are the speed brakes on the chine? Aren't there supposed to be big square plates like on the red boat above? Otherwise when you drive the boat into a reef, how will you know when to stop.

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Speed brakes? Damn, I knew I had forgotten something. Well just have to throw the sea chest overboard.

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Mad,

 

Here is a lines plan of the canal boat I would like BS to help me with especially in figuring out how to Origami it cheaply in steel. I have another version with a parallel midbody section more in keeping with the traditional cargo barges of England. This one doesn't have that constant mid-section, it is the purdy one!

 

E947Z4m.png

Your drawing seems to show some concave in the stern and bow sections.

 

Mr Swain, how would you pull steel into a concave form without stringers or ring frames as per the origami method.

Not judging, just curious.

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Mad,

 

Here is a lines plan of the canal boat I would like BS to help me with especially in figuring out how to Origami it cheaply in steel. I have another version with a parallel midbody section more in keeping with the traditional cargo barges of England. This one doesn't have that constant mid-section, it is the purdy one!

 

E947Z4m.png

Your drawing seems to show some concave in the stern and bow sections.

 

Mr Swain, how would you pull steel into a concave form without stringers or ring frames as per the origami method.

Not judging, just curious.

 

 

Drive a car into it.

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Mad,

 

Here is a lines plan of the canal boat I would like BS to help me with especially in figuring out how to Origami it cheaply in steel. I have another version with a parallel midbody section more in keeping with the traditional cargo barges of England. This one doesn't have that constant mid-section, it is the purdy one!

 

...

 

It looks like you're already WAY ahead of Brent. Here are his drawings...

 

Brent Swain Origami boat drawings - Boat Design Forums

 

25743d1222735579-brent-swain-origami-boa

 

25744d1222735579-brent-swain-origami-boa

 

25745d1222735579-brent-swain-origami-boa

 

25746d1222735579-brent-swain-origami-boa

 

25748d1222735673-brent-swain-origami-boa

 

They don't look very detailed. But there must be a lot of math in there somewhere. Like the change in curvature in the keel/skeg cutaway in the various boats. What drives that? And why leave the back of the rudder open on the 36' and 40'? Engineering my friends.

 

Do you really think he's going to be able to help you with your complex shape?

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