Origami Boat Thread

[smackdaddy 295]

3 hours ago, Brent Swain said:

With  the sun at such a shallow angle to the hull plate, even 1/16th of an inch dimple would show a shadow like that( which Bob boats would have filled with bondo.

No Bob,  that had nothing to do with the impact ,which would have torn the bottom out of a plastic Bob boat. Shining a light along a hull is a good way to find hollows in a boat which needs fairing ( like all steel Bob boats)

Well that's a huge load of BS. The hull is crushed. Pure and simple. Your boats are weak.

[TwoLegged 797]

40 minutes ago, Bob Perry said:

I had a guy contacted me two weeks ago. He had done 2.5 circumnavigations in his Perry boat (TY 37) but now he wanted to ship his boat home. He wanted drawing so he could build a  cradle.

 

I'll write Brent's reply for him, to save him the trouble:

Typical useless dangerous plastic boat -- scared its crew into quitting after only two and a half trips around the globe.   If they'd had a proper boat rather than a fragile Perry yottie thing, they'd not have had to cut their adventure short

[austin1972 626]

4 hours ago, Bob Perry said:

Drop leaf table is all clamped up. Leaves will be cut away when clamping is done. Asked how many hours were estimated to go into each table. The answer was 100 hours for labor. You are not going to find any tables like this on BS boats.

 

 

 

 

I hate this part of my job. Trying to explain why things take so much effort and cost a lot. It gets weird.

I mean, the answer is simple. Because it's good, and good takes effort. Lots of it. There can be tears involved.

But, look how well the Boat School site has held up. That was hard, and a long time ago in internet time.

It's still #2 organically and, thanks to Boomer, is visually awesome.

http://www.nwswb.edu/

The best part is, the client can still do whatever they want with it years later. They don't have to call me.

The only reason they're #2 is because they changed their domain name.

[dfw_sailor 279]

Thanks Bob, I enjoyed writing it. 

An oldy, but updated recently. Sales guy trying to defend the absurd reminds me very much of BS. 

[RKoch 1,004]

3 hours ago, Ishmael said:

You're not supposed to try to hit them.

Brent's boats are unable to avoid them. Much safer to remain permanently moored to a mudflat. Makes collecting the govt Dole check easier too.

[groundhog 1]

On 2017-05-16 at 7:02 PM, Brent Swain said:

Cant think of anything one could improve on what I have already designed .They fit the needs of 90% of the cruisers I meet ,out in the real world,away from urban marinas. I have enjoyed the luxury of only having to design what I believe in, based on decades of full time cruising experience .Doing what you don't believe in, or don't have any enthusiasm for, is design prostitution

This is like pissing into the wind, but I have to respond to this.  Part of being a good designer is designing for the needs of the client.  In boats, in houses (what I do), in anything.  The client's needs are often not my needs, and in fact vary hugely.  The clients' preferences are often not my preferences.  Their needs, preferences, experiences are not somehow of lesser importance than mine.  I don't even have to particularly like the result, so long as they do, and so long as it is not actually ill-suited to its purpose.  It is fun to have to do such varied work, and would be downright boring to only do design that is peculiarly suited to my own requirements.  I do houses, you do boats.  You do yourself and others a disservice, Brent, by not stretching your design experience.

This has been said by others in different words here - into the wind.....

[groundhog 1]

3 hours ago, B.J. Porter said:

I don't think the point of this is to see your old, crappy drawings.

We'd love to see what a 'designer' like you can come up with after all your extensive years of 'cruising'. How your expertise refines your designs from 30 years ago.

We've seen the old, crude drawings. We want to see the benefit of all this experience and how your solutions have improved from it.

Because you make it sound like you achieved "perfection" 30 years ago with your one, single design, and haven't learned or changed anything since.

Yet you claim to be a designer.

Reminds me of the forward to the 25 year anniversary edition of "The Fountainhead" by Ayn Rand.  She claimed to have not adjusted her philosophy at all since she had originally written the book, and, if I recall correctly, claimed it as a virtue to be able to unwaveringly hold tight to one's convictions - life experience and long thought notwithstanding!  Sounds familiar.

[B.J. Porter 2,822]

1 minute ago, groundhog said:

Reminds me of the forward to the 25 year anniversary edition of "The Fountainhead" by Ayn Rand.  She claimed to have not adjusted her philosophy at all since she had originally written the book, and, if I recall correctly, claimed it as a virtue to be able to unwaveringly hold tight to one's convictions - life experience and long thought notwithstanding!  Sounds familiar.

Yet at the end of her life Ayn Rand relied on Social Security and Medicare to help cover her medical expenses after getting treated for cancer...

[B.J. Porter 2,822]

15 minutes ago, groundhog said:

Part of being a good designer is designing for the needs of the client.  In boats, in houses (what I do), in anything.  The client's needs are often not my needs, and in fact vary hugely

No, no, no. You have it ALL WRONG.

The client does not know their needs. Their needs are Brent's needs. Everyone's desires and needs for a boat are met by Brent and his ideas, the way he thinks things should be done. If you think otherwise you are wrong. You are a snob, a wastrel, a sucker or a con man if you believe otherwise.

The designer's job is to humiliate and insult everyone into understanding that they are undeniably right, and there is no other way to do things that makes sense.

[olaf hart 535]

Knew an architect like that once.

i walked out of the first meeting.

he had a beautifully built steel boat, but it was a dog of a design,

a friend helped deliver it across Bass Strait, it was so slow it kept being pooped over the stern.

[SloopJonB 7,941]

5 hours ago, Brent Swain said:

Fragile rudder and very exposed prop, in log strewn BC waters.

Yet somehow large numbers of them have managed to survive here since the late 60's and early 70's.

There's currently an old 39 like that one in my local boatyard - looks great, rudder intact etc.

How is that possible?

[SloopJonB 7,941]

5 hours ago, Brent Swain said:

Search Tagish for a record of a more recent circumnavigation in  a brentboat; liars!

I haven't had my boat in Comox since early December 2016; liars!

So you sailed 30 miles up island to Quadra - is that one of your ocean crossings?

[tekton 1]

I just imagined the only practical way to circumnavigate in a B(r)ent Boat: 

Weld its depressed and rusting 5-years-in-a-field chrysalis (never a butterfly) to the ass of an ocean-going cargo vessel or tanker, vagabond food and blankets from the ship's stores, and hide out near the funnel. 

It'd be like a remora grifting on the futtock of a legitimate boat... much like Brent's grifting on the good people of Canada. 

[groundhog 1]

12 hours ago, B.J. Porter said:

No, no, no. You have it ALL WRONG.

The client does not know their needs. Their needs are Brent's needs. Everyone's desires and needs for a boat are met by Brent and his ideas, the way he thinks things should be done. If you think otherwise you are wrong. You are a snob, a wastrel, a sucker or a con man if you believe otherwise.

The designer's job is to humiliate and insult everyone into understanding that they are undeniably right, and there is no other way to do things that makes sense.

Man, if I did that I'd probably be way better at making money doing this!  Some people pay well to be told what they want.  Much more fun to find out what they want and then make it better.

[Bob Perry 839]

I agree groundhog. For me it's the often quirky or unusual client requests that result in the most interesting design features.

 

In the very early days of the CATARI project the client could not make his mind up between an aft cockpit layout or a center cockpit layout. I suggested we could take a look at having both CC and aft cockpits. At the time I had no idea what sort of challenge that would turn out to be. The client was hot for that idea so Jody and I went to work designing a boat with two cockpits. I drug WHL into the project to help me with the hardware layout on the deck. Having a ketch rig, client's demand, also made the challenge greater.

 

Here to refresh your memory and to sooth your sore eyes from looking at BS's shite are some of the beautiful 3D renderings that Rasper aka Jody produced. Yes, it was an expensive design project but we explored all the avenues. Jody's work is pure boat porn and was essential to this project.

[smackdaddy 295]

13 hours ago, groundhog said:

She claimed to have not adjusted her philosophy at all since she had originally written the book, and, if I recall correctly, claimed it as a virtue to be able to unwaveringly hold tight to one's convictions - life experience and long thought notwithstanding!

 

13 hours ago, B.J. Porter said:

Yet at the end of her life Ayn Rand relied on Social Security and Medicare to help cover her medical expenses after getting treated for cancer...

Wow, I would have never drawn a parallel between Swain and Rand, but now that you mention it.

[valis 178]

"Swain Shrugged" - A super-capable super-genius decides to withdraw from an unappreciative society and form his own utopia for a like-minded elite few on the mud flats of Comox.  The rest of society doesn't even notice.
 

[Yigael 4]

2 minutes ago, valis said:

"Swain Shrugged" - A super-capable super-genius decides to withdraw from an unappreciative society and form his own utopia for a like-minded elite few on the mud flats of Comox.  The rest of society doesn't even notice.
 

[Ishmael 5,764]

10 minutes ago, valis said:

"Swain Shrugged" - A super-capable super-genius decides to withdraw from an unappreciative society and form his own utopia for a like-minded elite few on the mud flats of Comox.  The rest of society doesn't even notice.
 

With local legends like Brother Twelve to contend with, Brent's got a hard row to hoe. Makes Brent look normal.

Oh, sorry, I guess using a work analogy for Brent isn't really appropriate.

[smackdaddy 295]

8 minutes ago, Ishmael said:

With local legends like Brother Twelve to contend with, Brent's got a hard row to hoe. Makes Brent look normal.

Oh, sorry, I guess using a work analogy for Brent isn't really appropriate.

From that story...

Quote

The charismatic leader would control this idealistic community but underneath the charm are stories of abuse, manipulation and fraud.

This is just getting more and more interesting. Of course, Brent has no charm. But still

[Autonomous 337]

44 minutes ago, smackdaddy said:

 

Wow, I would have never drawn a parallel between Swain and Rand, but now that you mention it.

Dunno about a parallel.

I suspect Rand paid a hell of a lot more taxes to fund her benefits than semi-retired in his 20s Swain did.

[sailman 93]

Was that actually a compliment?

[Whisper 39]

30 minutes ago, Brent Swain said:

A friend in Comox has a Passport 47.  He went to Mexico for a winter, then had to come back home, and go back to work.

For the difference in price, between his boat and a brentboat he would not have had  to work ,ever again.

The latter sounds like more fun than having  Passport in marina ,while you have to go to work every day.

This is extremely common, among those who choose status symbols over  function and practicality, and the freedom it leaves one.

Nice boat , for a plastic boat!

Who can retire on $100,000?

You're insane.

[fastyacht 1,461]

Eyebolts snag lines. That's stupid. Put a fucking welded staple you doofus.

[RKoch 1,004]

46 minutes ago, Brent Swain said:

Obviously hasn't hit  a log in the night. They do that by only leaving the marina three weeks a year, and only in  clear, sunny, summer weather.

Some of us prefer the option of cruising year round ,which, in winter here, means a lot of night sailing, given the shortness of the days here in winter.

So says the guy who's been moored to a mudflat for 20 years. If cruising a Brent boat is so cheap and low-maintainence, how come you ain't doing it?

[B.J. Porter 2,822]

47 minutes ago, Brent Swain said:

Another great detailing post by Paul, on the origamiboats site.

(Quote)

opuspaul

May 15 5:24 PM

 

I would put a few very strong eyebolts on the cabin top if your handholds aren't made from heavy pipe or they can't take a heavy load.   The eyebolts are useful for tying the dinghy down or other heavy gear on deck and unlike cleats, they won't snag lines.

They'd be hell on your toes in the dark though. When I did something like that for tying boats on the boat, I ripped myself off by buying these over priced "yotti" fold down eye rings, I think from Wichard. When there is no boat there, there is also nothing to trip over or snag since it's hinged and folds down out of the way.

Eyebolts sticking out of a cabin top...but ugly AND hard on your feet!

[B.J. Porter 2,822]

13 minutes ago, Brent Swain said:

We just bought a used main for a 36, in new condition, from usedsaillof.com in Sidney BC, for $350. Genoas were a similar price. Steve has a huge supply ,at similar prices.

I just ordered a new Hydranet Radial Main for Evenstar. It was slightly more than $350. Now I feel stupid, because for $350 I could just keep sailing on a stretched out main with no shape, and like a big dummy, I ordered a new sail that will be crisp, fast, fits my boat, and well shaped.

I suspect a sailor of Brent's caliber just doesn't realize that new sails aren't just about looking pretty.

[B.J. Porter 2,822]

4 minutes ago, Brent Swain said:

Glad I haven't made my morning coffee yet, because that particularly tone deaf post would have burned like a sonofabitch when it came out my nose.

[groundhog 1]

2 minutes ago, B.J. Porter said:

14 minutes ago, Brent Swain said:

We just bought a used main for a 36, in new condition, from usedsaillof.com in Sidney BC, for $350. Genoas were a similar price. Steve has a huge supply ,at similar prices.

I just ordered a new Hyranet Radial Main for Evenstar. It was slightly more than $350. Now I feel stupid, because for $350 I could just keep sailing on a stretched out main with no shape, and like a big dummy, I ordered a new sail that will be crisp, fast, and well shaped.

I almost got a boat without usable sails, BJ, and I would have gone to such a place for a used suit.  Same reason too, to keep initial costs down.  No shame.  Now, on the other hand, I would get new sails if I could, the aesthetic pleasure is worth the cost when the cash is in hand!

[willp14335 119]

I'f he's in a BS 36 it's probably 2 or 3 knots slower...

[B.J. Porter 2,822]

11 minutes ago, groundhog said:

I almost got a boat without usable sails, BJ, and I would have gone to such a place for a used suit.  Same reason too, to keep initial costs down.  No shame.  Now, on the other hand, I would get new sails if I could, the aesthetic pleasure is worth the cost when the cash is in hand!

Don't disagree with you for doing that. I've bought sails from used sails lofts.

Problem with Brent is that he'll tell you that is the ONLY way to buy sails, and there is no reason to ever get a new sail. Rather than acknowledge his own economic reality and the perfectly valid reasons for buying one, he will disparage those that buy new sails as being "stupid" or "suckers" or "snobs".

[B.J. Porter 2,822]

4 minutes ago, Brent Swain said:

Does that let you sail far enough  to catch up to the  guy who is going a knot slower , but who's resourcefulness let him get  a ten  year head start on you?

I don't know Brent - I'm on the far side of the Pacific from you. All your vaunted "Cruising" is pottering around in Canada along the cost. For the last twenty years anyway you've been a "liveaboard", not a "cruiser."

I'm fifty, how old are you again?

[B.J. Porter 2,822]

2 minutes ago, willp14335 said:

I'f he's in a BS 36 it's probably 2 or 3 knots slower...

And we won't talk about TWA.

[Yigael 4]

7 minutes ago, B.J. Porter said:

I don't know Brent - I'm on the far side of the Pacific from you. All your vaunted "Cruising" is pottering around in Canada along the cost. For the last twenty years anyway you've been a "liveaboard", not a "cruiser."

I'm fifty, how old are you again?

Exactly!

[RKoch 1,004]

9 minutes ago, B.J. Porter said:

And we won't talk about TWA.

It depends on what direction the wind is blowing when BS blows up on the reef a competently designed boat could have avoided.

[Rantifarian 7]

1 hour ago, fastyacht said:

Eyebolts snag lines. That's stupid. Put a fucking welded staple you doofus.

+1

Staple or heavy plate with a hope in it, either is much better that an eyebolt sticking out of the deck

[slap 399]

45 minutes ago, Brent Swain said:

 

"They laughed at Columbus, they laughed at Fulton, they laughed at the Wright brothers. But they also laughed at Bozo the Clown." ---- Carl Sagan

 

The Dunning–Kruger effect is a cognitive bias in which relatively unskilled individuals suffer from illusory superiority, mistakenly assessing their ability to be much higher than it really is. Dunning and Kruger attributed this bias to a metacognitive inability of the unskilled to recognize their own ineptitude and evaluate their own ability accurately.

 

[groundhog 1]

12 minutes ago, B.J. Porter said:

Don't disagree with you for doing that. I've bought sails from used sails lofts.

Problem with Brent is that he'll tell you that is the ONLY way to buy sails, and there is no reason to ever get a new sail. Rather than acknowledge his own economic reality and the perfectly valid reasons for buying one, he will disparage those that buy new sails as being "stupid" or "suckers" or "snobs".

Oh, I agree with you.  He doesn't see that the increased performance - or 'aesthetic pleasure' - in new sails has a value.  I have an old but servicable main that I'm using this season while I learn my boat; it came with a 2 year old main as well that is still quite crisp, and which I've set aside for now.  I think the anticipation will be rather pleasing.

One reason that responding directly to Mr. Swain was not a useful thing to do is that I have him on ignore so I won't even know if he responded....

This brings to mind a thought experiment I've done in the past, trying to determine in my own mind what value appreciation of quality has as an absolute, and whether there is something lesser (diminished?) in someone who does not appreciate good quality; for example with food someone who is happy to enjoy less complex dishes.  I have to conclude that while there is no fault or disgrace in not having a sophisticated palate, there is value in perceiving excellent quality - usually balanced by dissatisfaction with cruder fare!  The error Brent makes, as you say above, lies in assuming that appreciation of quality is wrong.

[SloopJonB 7,941]

4 hours ago, smackdaddy said:

 

Wow, I would have never drawn a parallel between Swain and Rand, but now that you mention it.

Totally - both are (or were) completely self absorbed. Any consideration of others views is not to be countenanced.

[Bob Perry 839]

I feel strongly that if there is one place on the boat to throw money it is on the sails.

Bill Atkin used to write on his sail plans "Sails are power. Buy good sails."

Sails that have lost their designed shape or had poor designed shape to begin with are frustrating to sail with. Upwind the difference can be substantial.

Of course if the boat is a poor design like a BSDboat the hull, rig and deck plan are only capable of so much performance anyway so spending money on good sails may not make a difference at all.

The boats just won't go to weather, as evidenced by all of them on the rocks and reefs. Good sails will be of little value. That photo of BS's boat on its ear shows a main with no battens. Have you ever sailed a boat with a battenless main? It's impossible to get a good shape in the main. Draft slides aft and it just becomes a bag. But I doubt BS even knows the difference.

He has always sailed with used sails so he has no frame of reference.

A nice crisp set of new sails on a BS boat would only serve to make the boat look worse.

[SloopJonB 7,941]

51 minutes ago, Brent Swain said:

As they spend huge amount of their  time, stalled in rush hour  traffic lineups, brandishing an  "I'd rather be sailing "bumper sticker on their cars  , what do they call the guy who has  accomplished, since his mid 20s what they claim to be aspiring to do, and who is actually doing it, while they steam in frustration ,at the traffic?

"CRAZY" 

Yes, I have heard that crazy people like that, consider anyone doing things differently ;

"CRAZY"

So who is really

"CRAZY?"

LAZY Brent, LAZY, not crazy.

[smackdaddy 295]

14 minutes ago, groundhog said:

Oh, I agree with you.  He doesn't see that the increased performance - or 'aesthetic pleasure' - in new sails has a value.  I have an old but servicable main that I'm using this season while I learn my boat; it came with a 2 year old main as well that is still quite crisp, and which I've set aside for now.  I think the anticipation will be rather pleasing.

One reason that responding directly to Mr. Swain was not a useful thing to do is that I have him on ignore so I won't even know if he responded....

This brings to mind a thought experiment I've done in the past, trying to determine in my own mind what value appreciation of quality has as an absolute, and whether there is something lesser (diminished?) in someone who does not appreciate good quality; for example with food someone who is happy to enjoy less complex dishes.  I have to conclude that while there is no fault or disgrace in not having a sophisticated palate, there is value in perceiving excellent quality - usually balanced by dissatisfaction with cruder fare!  The error Brent makes, as you say above, lies in assuming that appreciation of quality is wrong.

I disagree. The fault with Brent is that he holds crudeness up as perfection, purely because of HIS perceived functionality underlying that crudeness. In other words, he's the ultimate "form follows function" practitioner where form is completely disregarded as meaningless and function is so narrowly defined as to become virtually meaningless.

To Brent "quality" means you can beat on it with a sledgehammer or a reef and it will survive somewhat intact. But in that world, the only things of quality are the sledgehammer and the reef. So he's even wrong there.

No - there is no logical explanation for Brent. He's just a bitter nutbird.

[Bob Perry 839]

 "Brent ,you are doing it ,they are not, only continually talking about it! That says it all!"

 

No BS. You are talking about it.

I am doing it.

[smackdaddy 295]

18 minutes ago, Brent Swain said:

...I would be doing more maintenance than playtime...

We've seen your filthy, run-down boat. Nobody questions the fact that you do FAR more playtime than maintenance.

[smackdaddy 295]

Was your old SIMPLICITY "intact" after it was wrecked, then stripped and burned by the natives? A rotting hulk on a beach or reef is not "intact". It's just a hulk.

[groundhog 1]

3 minutes ago, smackdaddy said:

I disagree. The fault with Brent is that he holds crudeness up as perfection, purely because of HIS perceived functionality underlying that crudeness. In other words, he's the ultimate "form follows function" practitioner where form is completely disregarded as meaningless and function is so narrowly defined as to become virtually meaningless.

To Brent "quality" means you can beat on it with a sledgehammer or a reef and it will survive somewhat intact. But in that world, the only things of quality are the sledgehammer and the reef. So he's even wrong there.

No - there is no logical explanation for Brent. He's just a bitter nutbird.

I take your point, smack.  But I do wonder how high quality impacts on his consciousness.  I mean, his way is the way, that is a given, but are all other ways just part of a greyness that must be avoided because of Difference (I don't think so) or... no, I talking myself in circles.  The root, as always, is failure to allow for the legitimacy of others' frames of reference.  Which problem most of us have to a certain extent and Brent has to an astonishing degree.

[smackdaddy 295]

You nailed it hog.

[LB 15 4,634]

26 minutes ago, Brent Swain said:

Suns coming out, warm weather forecast. Time to head for Cortes ( where my critics work a whole year ,to spend 3 weeks on) after taking in an ice cream cone.

I think you have a few cones everyday.

[Bob Perry 839]

The success of my own work depends upon my ability to totally understand and accept my client's frame of reference.

[B.J. Porter 2,822]

53 minutes ago, Brent Swain said:

I currently cruise in the best cruising ground in the world, and get a kick out of those who know I am having too  much fun, who keep  saying I should find a more miserable place to cruise, because those who don't like me, know I am having too much fun, cruising in this paradise.

Now doing that would be extremely dense!

No place in the world   would rather be, right now than right here.

So why would I go some place I do'nt want to be, to please those who would rather see me miserable?

That would be as dense as putting a lot of high maintenance brightwork on my boat, so I would be doing more maintenance than playtime, or going to for a high stress plastic boat, so I would be worrying more about the chance of bumping something,or spend so much on moorage that I cant afford to leave the dock more that three weeks a year, in order  to please those who want me to  have less fun and freedom.

That's the biggest copout bullshit excuse I think I've heard you make.

There are a LOT of nice places to cruise in the world Brent, you know this. Cruisers...cruise. You know, they Go Places. Travel, explore, see new things. You are a liveaboard, this "best cruising ground in the world" thing is just more stuff and nonsense to justify the corners you've painted yourself in there. Like every single one of your reverse snobbery arguments.

There is a great wide world full of interesting things to see and do, and places as nice and nicer then British Columbia.

You just can't get there.

[dfw_sailor 279]

22 hours ago, dfw_sailor_wannabe said:

If you truly don't give a fuck about what your boat looks like, then why are you bothering being online to push your designs at all? 

Anyone who has real passion for their craft will make extra effort to present the best impression. 

But you don't. You haven't updated your book. You don't have a proper website. Your paint work is worse than a todlers.  The scans from your book are near infantile. 

You could have the best ideas in the world but if your public presence looks like shit, then 99.99% of the population will assume with no questions that all of your work is shit.

But yet you spend time here. Are you just plain old lazy? No ambition? Not enough confidence in your own products to give them the best presence and chance for wide scale adoption?

It's not as if you have made much difference in the world. And if you're happy with that, no problem. 

But if you don't care about your work, why would anyone else? And that also gives you 0% right to criticize anybody else's work. 

That 's whats so entertaining about this thread. You get so worked up about people's work but don't give a shit about your own. Way to go... What a way to spend your one shot at life. 

I can see the perfect tagline for your website if you ever do it one day.... 

 

I don't give a shit how my boat looks, can't be bothered to paint a straight-line. You can expect the same quality from my book, as well as ongoing support. But if you're ok with that, send $350 and I'll send you some lines drawn on paper.  Good luck with your build! (you'll need it!) 

 

 

Brent, too lazy to respond?  or is it just too hard to deal with a logical question? 

[Bob Perry 839]

I know the truth hurts BS but you can't make it go away. Talk will not undo your work. We have all seen it.

 

[B.J. Porter 2,822]

14 minutes ago, Brent Swain said:

No brentboat has ever  gone aground from lack of ability to get to windward.

So why have SO MANY of your boats ended up on rocks, reefs, and beaches?

Is the the incompetence of the operators? Or the inability of the boat to sail in the direction you point it.

Hunters are not really considered as paragons of high performance sailing. Kind of like Brent boats.

Bob doesn't design anything like a Hunter.

[Bob Perry 839]

"I'd love to meet them!"

What would you do BS, talk to them?

 

It would take a fool to paint all Hunters with one brush. But BS is a fool so paint away BS.

[B.J. Porter 2,822]

Just now, Brent Swain said:

Been there, many times . Always glad to get back here.In the S Pacific, those who are looking at having to get back to Southern California are horrified at the prospect. Washington ,a bit more enthusiastic about getting home ,BC, more enthusiastic yet. Alaskans usually cant wait to get home.

Says a lot about a cruising ground.

I'm sure it's delightful. But there's a lot of the world you haven't seen.

Claiming you don't go anywhere because there is no where better to go is asinine. That is not the mentality of a cruiser, not in the least.

[MikeJohns 25]

9 minutes ago, Brent Swain said:

..............

No doubt, you will claim to know more about how they went aground, than the skippers and crews who were actually  there. Like Mike Johns,you have so little to use in your attacks,that  you have to make things up .

......................

We are talking here of you cruising in the Pacific 11 months of the year every year. Another Mike , proved for a fact that 6 years ago that you'd gone nowhere offshore for at least 10 years and possibly never. He also revealed that at the time you lived with your sister while claiming you lived aboard. He also revealed that you lied about your employment and that you were just a laborer, not what you were claiming.

The conjecture I asked you to comment on was that you'd not been offshore in any steel boat. ( certainly never in a BS36 origami ) Your reply to that conjecture was to claim that on your last trans Pacific trip you'd posted endlessly on forums without breathing a word of your whereabouts. That's where the misinformation came about. Now it's apparent that your supposed latest Pacific crossing was a coastal trip to Haida Gwaii.  

You obfuscate and fabricate facts to an extent that nothing you say can be considered fact. If you respond to conjecture with a falsehood it suggests the conjecture is correct. It was misinformation of your own making. If you stuck to the truth it wouldn't happen.

 

[B.J. Porter 2,822]

Just now, Brent Swain said:

Of all the  brentboats built, I can almost count on  one hand the ones which have ended up aground in rough conditions,  certainly less than two hands, which all but two have  survived ,in conditions which  would have broken up  a plastic boat in minutes.

If  you aint  been aground, you aint been around! They have been around .

Counting on one had STILL gives you a significant percentage of your boats.

The way you present it, it seems a fairly common occurrence.

[Bob Perry 839]

Projecting again BS.

 

Once again he weasels out on a clear question.

[MikeJohns 25]

1 minute ago, Brent Swain said:

Of all the  brentboats built, I can almost count on  one hand the ones which have ended up aground in rough conditions,  certainly less than two hands, which all but two have  survived ,in conditions which  would have broken up  a plastic boat in minutes.

If  you aint  been aground, you aint been around! They have been around .

Brent

I'm curious,  what year did you build the first 36 footer and is that boat still around ?

 

[bpm57 47]

1 minute ago, Brent Swain said:

Going for  ice cream; far more important than vainly trying to  educate luddites  like you.

 

Brent, do you even know what a luddite is? Or do you just throw out words when they seem impressive to you?

[B.J. Porter 2,822]

2 minutes ago, Brent Swain said:

22 minutes ago, dfw_sailor_wannabe said:

Brent, too lazy to respond?  or is it just too hard to deal with a logical question? 

Going for  ice cream; far more important than vainly trying to  educate luddites  like you.

Luddites? Really?

A Luddite is someone who is opposed to technological change.

You flat out refuse to consider that materials and construction techniques have improved dramatically in the last 40 years and cling desperately to one outdated and old construction method. Never mind how you've been dragged kicking and screaming to technology like scanners and image processing.

There is no better definition of Luddite than you.

 

[B.J. Porter 2,822]

Just now, bpm57 said:

 

Brent, do you even know what a luddite is? Or do you just throw out words when they seem impressive to you?

He knows it's a mean name that people have called him. Probably thinks it means "stupid."

[Fah Kiew Tu 1,877]

2 hours ago, Brent Swain said:

Another great detailing post by Paul, on the origamiboats site.

(Quote)

opuspaul

May 15 5:24 PM

 

I would put a few very strong eyebolts on the cabin top if your handholds aren't made from heavy pipe or they can't take a heavy load.   The eyebolts are useful for tying the dinghy down or other heavy gear on deck and unlike cleats, they won't snag lines.

That's supposed to be *NEWS*???

I've got a row of Wichard type folding D rings on both sides of my cabin top through-bolted to stainless backing plates. No handholds either, with pipe top railings what's the point...

FKT

[comcrudesgru8 117]

Comox BC........is that the place that is under voting review having voted for socialist freebees for BS boats by 9 votes ?   

[B.J. Porter 2,822]

Just now, Fah Kiew Tu said:

That's supposed to be *NEWS*???

I've got a row of Wichard type folding D rings on both sides of my cabin top through-bolted to stainless backing plates. No handholds either, with pipe top railings what's the point...

FKT

So you got sodomized by the Ship Swindlers too then? It's like a fraternity.

[mad 3,701]

On 16/05/2017 at 0:44 AM, oceaneer said:

In sails I have almost 20K.. and its by no means an extensive inventory. Pretty much the minimum for offshore. I wonder where you spend the other 15K on?

 

Good point, I don't think a sailplan has ever been mentioned by BS. 

I wonder what his budget solution is to sail making??

 

[smackdaddy 295]

1 hour ago, Brent Swain said:

Bob, Martin, on" Prairie Made "used to charter Hunters for years.He said the windward performance of his 36 ft brentboat is far superior to anything he could ever  get out of a Hunter, which sailed like a half tide rock, when  trying to get it to windward.Martin has experienced sailing both, you claim you  have never even seen a brentboat, but claim to know more about how they sail to windward, than someone who owns and cruises in one.

It is obviously YOU  who are totally full of shit!

No brentboat has ever  gone aground from lack of ability to get to windward.

No doubt, you will claim to know more about how they went aground, than the skippers and crews who were actually  there. Like Mike Johns,you have so little to use in your attacks,that  you have to make things up .

What kind of idiot would pay $175 an hour to someone so dishonest ,especially  when you can buy the kind of boat he designs, for far less than the cost of materials?

I own a Hunter. You have zero experience with Hunters...yet you claim to know a lot about them.

If Martin said that about Hunters either he doesn't know how to sail, or he is a complete idiot like you are. I'll be generous and assume the former because it's clear that most of your customers have absolutely no clue how to sail, which is why they build your boats.

[B.J. Porter 2,822]

Just now, smackdaddy said:

I own a Hunter. You have zero experience with Hunters. If Martin said that about Hunters either he doesn't know how to sail, or he is a complete fool. I'll be generous and assume the former because it's clear that most of your customers have no clue how to sail, which is why they build your boats and put them on reefs.

FTFY

[smackdaddy 295]

1 hour ago, B.J. Porter said:

Hunters are not really considered as paragons of high performance sailing. Kind of like Brent boats.

Sorry BJ - but that's complete BS. I'm very aware of all the crap flung about regarding Hunters. I researched it for a long time before buying my Hunter. I don't know what your HR53 rates, but I do know that the HR49 rates a 120 (NE PHRF) and the HR46 rates a 96.

The Hunter 40 rates a 96 with far less waterline. So I really don't give a damn if you like Hunters or not, but let's not start going into Brentland here.

[smackdaddy 295]

42 minutes ago, Brent Swain said:

I can almost count on one hand.

Well guys, there's your stability study.

[dfw_sailor 279]

26 minutes ago, Brent Swain said:

Going for  ice cream; far more important than vainly trying to  educate luddites  like you.

Thanks for the chuckle, yet again attempting to insult rather than address the question. Funny thing is the insult falls very flat given I design leading edge technology systems in my field. 

No hurry, finish your ice cream. Tomorrow will be fine. 

I don't think you need worry about appearing to be vain. That was apparent about 100 pages ago. 

 

 

[LB 15 4,634]

1 hour ago, Brent Swain said:

Badly dented ,after a week of gales on a rocky lee shore, but intact enough to sail anywhere in the world .A plastic boat would have broken up in minutes in those conditions.She was built over frames and steel bulkheads , traditional style, before I started using origami methods.She would have been far less dented, had she been origami

.An ex con ,who went by the name Les Freemass( among other names) ,offered to help him get her off. He began taking gear of and stashing it at his friends place, which the skipper never got back.While he was alone on the boat , a tug offered to pull her of,and he refused.

When the skipper realized the guy was a con artist,  he asked him how much he owed, and paid the guy, then asked him to  leave. Later a friend of Steve's, paddled by ,found the boat wide open, all hatches open,  and the interior soaked in  gasoline.Shortly after, she went up in flames .Had she been sealed, with all the hatches closed, the fire would have quickly gone out.

On Hornby Island , if some one is such an asshole, the locals escort them to the Ferry , make sure they  get on it ,with a warning to never come back.No sign of those two assholes there, anymore.

I'd love to meet them!

What are you talking about you clown. The red shit box gently took the ground on a mudbank and the twin keels (that don't work at keeping the shitbox upright anyway) pushed in the plating. What a piece of shit. 

[LB 15 4,634]

7 minutes ago, smackdaddy said:

Well guys, there's your stability study.

He may have 6 fingers...

[Bob Perry 839]

In this one sentence BS displays his complete disconnect with the world of real yacht designers.

" you claim you  have never even seen a brentboat, but claim to know more about how they sail to windward, "

I have made a comfortable and pleasant living by my ability to predict and determine a boat's performance from drawings. All yacht designers do it. If they did not they would not know where to start a new design. Did Olin Stephens sit down to draw DORADE and think, I have no idea how this boat will perform but I'll draw it and hope anyway." Nope, he knew before he drew one line the performance he was after. There are tools for this. Calculations, ratios, rules of thumb and many books along with each designer's own sailing experiences and eye.

For over 345 years I have written a monthly column for SAILING where I predict the performance of boats from drawings. It's really not a big deal. Skilled designers can do it.

But you can't do it so you don;t think anyone else can do it. What an ignorant and narrow point of view. I can and I have posted countless posts here showing what I can do that you cannot do. Realty is in the context of yacht design there is almost nothing you can do. You flog a stagnant boat building method that eliminates the need for design.

I love to design. I live to design.

 

[oceaneer 5]

3 hours ago, Brent Swain said:

We just bought a used main for a 36, in new condition, from usedsaillof.com in Sidney BC, for $350. Genoas were a similar price. Steve has a huge supply ,at similar prices.

Yes Brent I bought 3 jibs/genoas off of him.. 

That was 4 years ago. Today the all are toast. 

Used sails are great as stop gap, but for real sail shape or longevity not so much. 

It all depends on what you want. I want simple that is fast and I am not carting them back to the loft every other week. 

 

[Bob Perry 839]

13 minutes ago, smackdaddy said:

Well guys, there's your stability study.

Very good Smackers. That made Taiwan tea fly our my nose. Very expensive tea too damn it.

 

I'm with you on the PHRF ratings. They may not be perfect in every case but they are damn good evaluations of a boats overall performance.

[SloopJonB 7,941]

1 hour ago, Bob Perry said:

It would take a fool to paint all Hunters with one brush. But BS is a fool so paint away BS.

The Hunter 31 I just sold performed on par with a Peterson 1/2 Tonner of similar vintage - PHRF of 165.

I'd guess one of Brents' 36' would be well over 200.

[B.J. Porter 2,822]

22 minutes ago, smackdaddy said:

Sorry BJ - but that's complete BS. I'm very aware of all the crap flung about regarding Hunters. I researched it for a long time before buying my Hunter. I don't know what your HR53 rates, but I do know that the HR49 rates a 120 (NE PHRF) and the HR46 rates a 96.

The Hunter 40 rates a 96 with far less waterline. So I really don't give a damn if you like Hunters or not, but let's not start going into Brentland here.

I'm not comparing them directly to Brent's, in that they are in any way "Like" them. I think that is your prickliness there in over reacting; you do that. The only way they are "like" Brentboats is that if you said to someone "give me a list of fast production boats" Hunter isn't likely to have one on it, except maybe the HC50. I don't think they built many of those though.

My Beneteau 40.7 rated 51, if you want to start measuring dicks over what's a "fast" boat Hunter really isn't a good starting point. A 96 rating in a 40 footer isn't really something you thump your chest about - with my 51 rating, in our Wednesday night fleet I was still owed time by an X-41, a Farr 395 and a Mumm 36. All boats in a similar size range, and much faster than a Hunter 40.

That being said, there are plenty of good things to say about Hunters, not the least of which is that at their price point they provide excellent value for comfortable coastal cruising. But they are NOT well known as performance monsters.

Most HR owners don't race them much. I'd be surprised if anyone every issued a PHRF cert for an HR53. But again, if you feel the need to measure dicks, my top day on passage was 208 miles, if memory serves. Not bad, but not slow. I don't know what a Hunter would do in those circumstances; we don't see many of them out here making blue water crossings.

[Bob Perry 839]

PHRF rating work for me if you want to measure dicks. Need to take full range of performance into account. I'm sure rolling along on a strong reach all day B.J your DWL will rule. I'd love to be aboard for that day. But that;s just one day.

[RKoch 1,004]

A friend of mine bought a Hunter 335. I was a bit skeptical at first, but after helping him a bit on the refitting and sailing with him several times, I see it's perfect for him. He daysails, with guests who are primarily non-sailors. He'd like to do some weekend/coastal cruising. The boat  is responsive and performs reasonably well. Maintainence is low, the vast majority of his time and money have gone towards refurbishing an approx 25 year old boat.  Hunter ID'd their market well. He's got no plans to sail it across oceans, ram into reefs, or live aboard on a mudflat. His investment is below the cost of building a BS boat, and he was able to use it immediately. 

[Bob Perry 839]

"He's got no plans to sail it across oceans, ram into reefs, or live aboard on a mudflat"

 

Well, so much for the fun part of yotting.

[B.J. Porter 2,822]

15 minutes ago, Bob Perry said:

PHRF rating work for me if you want to measure dicks. Need to take full range of performance into account. I'm sure rolling along on a strong reach all day B.J your DWL will rule. I'd love to be aboard for that day. But that;s just one day.

Or sixteen days on the milk run.

I never loved PHRF because it didn't really do a good job of taking a full range of performance into account. An example is my 51 rating, whereas the base rating for the boat is 54. I lost 3s/mile because I put a 10% larger pole on with a correspondingly larger spinnaker. We did that because the 40.7 was notoriously soft off the wind and sailing deep.

Which works out OK, until you get to a race with odd numbered legs and upwind finishes, and I'm paying the off the wind penalty for one extra leg for every race in a three day regatta. Or you do a point to point race, with a mix of conditions that isn't exactly even in terms of spin vs. non spin legs.

[smackdaddy 295]

44 minutes ago, B.J. Porter said:

I'm not comparing them directly to Brent's, in that they are in any way "Like" them. I think that is your prickliness there in over reacting; you do that. The only way they are "like" Brentboats is that if you said to someone "give me a list of fast production boats" Hunter isn't likely to have one on it, except maybe the HC50. I don't think they built many of those though.

My Beneteau 40.7 rated 51, if you want to start measuring dicks over what's a "fast" boat Hunter really isn't a good starting point. A 96 rating in a 40 footer isn't really something you thump your chest about - with my 51 rating, in our Wednesday night fleet I was still owed time by an X-41, a Farr 395 and a Mumm 36. All boats in a similar size range, and much faster than a Hunter 40.

That being said, there are plenty of good things to say about Hunters, not the least of which is that at their price point they provide excellent value for comfortable coastal cruising. But they are NOT well known as performance monsters.

Most HR owners don't race them much. I'd be surprised if anyone every issued a PHRF cert for an HR53. But again, if you feel the need to measure dicks, my top day on passage was 208 miles, if memory serves. Not bad, but not slow. I don't know what a Hunter would do in those circumstances; we don't see many of them out here making blue water crossings.

Siiigggghhh. Dude, you said what you said. And I'm not the only one that took it that way. Look at the above posts.

Look, I like you BJ, I really do, but let's be real. Brent said a friend of his claimed this...

Quote

He said the windward performance of his 36 ft brentboat is far superior to anything he could ever  get out of a Hunter, which sailed like a half tide rock, when  trying to get it to windward.

Then you followed on with this...

Quote

Hunters are not really considered as paragons of high performance sailing. Kind of like Brent boats.

Bob doesn't design anything like a Hunter.

So, yeah, I'm gonna challenge both of those statements - "prickly overreaction" or not.

To be crystal clear, I've never held that the Hunter 40 is a "fast" boat when compared to other performance boats. I do know that it rates "faster" than the HRs I listed. And I also know perfectly well that it's far "slower" than the First 40, and FARR slower still than a Farr 40 OD. But it's got a respectable rating for a pretty nice cruising boat - and it goes to windward very well if you have any inkling at all how sail. I'm happy with that.

So, no, I'm not interested in measuring your junk or racing your past. My point is, just like Bob's point, you and Brent painted Hunters with a very broad brush (like most do) especially in relation to a BS Yacht which rates in 4 digit range, when not on a reef. Hunters are certainly not HRs or Firsts, but they are nothing like Brent boats, and in relation to other production boats (performance or not) they're pretty damn good boats for the coin...at least the older ones before Marlow came along. I personally wouldn't touch those new Hunters with your measurable junk.

 

[smackdaddy 295]

5 minutes ago, Bob Perry said:

"He's got no plans to sail it across oceans, ram into reefs, or live aboard on a mudflat"

 

Well, so much for the fun part of yotting.

The comedy is strong tonight.

[B.J. Porter 2,822]

7 minutes ago, RKoch said:

A friend of mine bought a Hunter 335. I was a bit skeptical at first, but after helping him a bit on the refitting and sailing with him several times, I see it's perfect for him. He daysails, with guests who are primarily non-sailors. He'd like to do some weekend/coastal cruising. The boat  is responsive and performs reasonably well. Maintainence is low, the vast majority of his time and money have gone towards refurbishing an approx 25 year old boat.  Hunter ID'd their market well. He's got no plans to sail it across oceans, ram into reefs, or live aboard on a mudflat. His investment is below the cost of building a BS boat, and he was able to use it immediately. 

As I've said before, there's nothing inherently wrong with a lot of lower cost production boats, including Hunter. They are targeted for a specific market, and they serve it well. But you buy it that purpose.

If I was planning to live on shore forever and spend my weekends and summer vacations cruising around Southern New England, I certainly wouldn't buy a Hallberg-Rassy for it. They are lovely boats, but Evenstar was overkill for coastal cruising in the years before we took off. I probably would have kept the 40.7, or something similar.

[B.J. Porter 2,822]

2 minutes ago, smackdaddy said:

Quote

Hunters are not really considered as paragons of high performance sailing. Kind of like Brent boats.

Bob doesn't design anything like a Hunter.

So, yeah, I'm gonna challenge both of those statements - "prickly overreaction" or not.

To be crystal clear, I've never held that the Hunter 40 is a "fast" boat when compared to other performance boats. I do know that it rates "faster" than the HRs I listed. And I also know perfectly well that it's far "slower" than the First 40, and FARR slower still than a Farr 40 OD. But it's got a respectable rating for a pretty nice cruising boat - and it goes to windward very well if you have any inkling at all how sail. I'm happy with that.

So, no, I'm not interested in measuring your junk or racing your past. My point is, just like Bob's point, you and Brent painted Hunters with a very broad brush (like most do) especially in relation to a BS Yacht which rates in 4 digit range, when not on a reef. Hunters are certainly not HRs or Firsts, but they're pretty damn good boats for the coin...at least the older ones before Marlow came along. I personally wouldn't touch those new Hunters with your measurable junk.

Reading is fundamental.

That is the only statement I made about Hunters. And that statement about Hunters is absolutely true.

You get your panties in a twist how ever you want to, Smackers.

[smackdaddy 295]

Okay.

Now, back to painting BS Yachts with a very broad brush.

[B.J. Porter 2,822]

1 minute ago, smackdaddy said:

Okay.

Now, back to painting BS Yachts with a very broad brush.

I don't think there are enough Brentboats out there to do that.

[oceaneer 5]

So another day and another and again nothing new from Brent. 

Yes again he says bob is overcharging... yet cannot deliver the simplest of sketches to us. 

BRENT

DRAW