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      Abbreviated rules   07/28/2017

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Presuming Ed

Is this the Figaro III?

233 posts in this topic

That would be incredible. Yes, it would be more expensive to build then the 2, but you dont need hydraulics for the keel on a 32 footer, even the early Open 60s had purchase systems for the keel.

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I would be very surprised if Beneteau was wanting to build a canter. It has already been announced that Bene is staying on with the Figaro-3.

 

That said, it looks like a cool boat but not cheap to build or run

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Why the moustache foils though? They are only on the IMOCAs because the rule only allows 5 appendages. Given freedom they wouldn't be a first choice.

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And why would you put a scow bow on a one-design (i.e. no length restriction)?

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The Ocean Scow Cometh.....

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nothing wrong with a scow bow. it looks a bit like Pogo3's.

 

everything in Figaro 3 looks nice!! it easily beats Figaro 2 in speed.

 

canting keel, moustache foil.. yeah!

 

itd be backwards move if those appendages opted out.

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The Figaro sailors deliberately kept the II simple so to emphasize sailing ability. I find it hard to believe that a flying scow would even be considered.

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Nke system is so good. What's problematic with scow? Even mini scow was fastest among prototypes.

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It's fastest because you are comparing it against boats of the same length (length restrictions). What's the advantage of a scow over a boat 10% longer (or whatever)? It would be neither cheaper nor faster. Figaro doesn't have a length restriction and since they are one-design does it matter if the boats are all 1% faster? For Figaro, the racing would be the same whether the boats are scows or not and the difference would go unnoticed because they would all be the same regardless of which way they go with the design.

 

Scows only make sense if you don't have the option of going longer (Mini's and IMOCA 60's) and aren't one-design.

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It's fastest because you are comparing it against boats of the same length (length restrictions). What's the advantage of a scow over a boat 10% longer (or whatever)? It would be neither cheaper nor faster. Figaro doesn't have a length restriction and since they are one-design does it matter if the boats are all 1% faster? For Figaro, the racing would be the same whether the boats are scows or not and the difference would go unnoticed because they would all be the same regardless of which way they go with the design.

 

Scows only make sense if you don't have the option of going longer (Mini's and IMOCA 60's) and aren't one-design.

 

 

fads and fashion

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It's fastest because you are comparing it against boats of the same length (length restrictions). What's the advantage of a scow over a boat 10% longer (or whatever)? It would be neither cheaper nor faster. Figaro doesn't have a length restriction and since they are one-design does it matter if the boats are all 1% faster? For Figaro, the racing would be the same whether the boats are scows or not and the difference would go unnoticed because they would all be the same regardless of which way they go with the design.

 

Scows only make sense if you don't have the option of going longer (Mini's and IMOCA 60's) and aren't one-design.

Itd be shame if Figaro 3 is barely faster than F2.

 

What for improvements do you suggest in order to replace the 10 years design and stay competitive as long as possible.

 

F1 is quite slow compared to 2. So by lowering weight (canting keel, eventual carbon mast), adding a few inches in length and other small features improving the overall speed, all that makes sense for next generation of Figaro class. Don't you think so?

 

Again, competing in Figaro class is not for everyone. If one wants choose a design one wants, there is class 40 and mini.

 

Figaro sailors want the newest stuffs. Budget is not a concern as many of sailors are pros.

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Check out who did draw it :) and you will find the truth.

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Lombard, I hope :D

 

(tell me,please)

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Can't find the designer assuming it's not Francois Chevalier :). It bears some resemblance to the mini 888. Not sure if this is a serious projection, but anyhow if you get the foils working correctly, you would probably not need a scow bow, as the foils will keep the bow flying and also create enough RM to lessen the need of a wide hull

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Lombard, I hope :D

 

(tell me,please)

 

3 desings competing: VPLP, Finot-Conq + Sam Manuard, and Mer Forte (never heard).

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Lombard, I hope :D

 

(tell me,please)

 

3 desings competing: VPLP, Finot-Conq + Sam Manuard, and Mer Forte (never heard).

 

According to the classe mini site. Simon Koster's eight cube was designed by Mer Forte

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It's fastest because you are comparing it against boats of the same length (length restrictions). What's the advantage of a scow over a boat 10% longer (or whatever)? It would be neither cheaper nor faster. Figaro doesn't have a length restriction and since they are one-design does it matter if the boats are all 1% faster? For Figaro, the racing would be the same whether the boats are scows or not and the difference would go unnoticed because they would all be the same regardless of which way they go with the design.

 

Scows only make sense if you don't have the option of going longer (Mini's and IMOCA 60's) and aren't one-design.

 

Foils and scow because they are positioning the Figaro as the path-to-IMOCA par excellence.

 

Every wannabe pro, IMOCA aspiring, mini-graduate, young hotshot will be racing the Figaro 3.

 

And the design briefing calls for "atlantic crossing".

 

They just killed the Class 40. It will become a stagnanted class for old, fat wealthy men with delusions of someday quitting the job and doing a Global Ocean Race.

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Have you seen Figaro sailors bringing their boats into harbour on a windy day and parking up all single handed without a shore crew? Just imagine the carnage with those foils!
But it looks a real sweet design.

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I thought Beneteau were already committed to bringing out the new Figaro 3 in 3 years and in time for the 2019 season and they/designers still haven't received the specs yet???? If so that would make it 16 years of the Figaro 2 ..a pretty good innings.

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Lombard, I hope :D

 

(tell me,please)

 

3 desings competing: VPLP, Finot-Conq + Sam Manuard, and Mer Forte (never heard).

 

Mer forte is an engineering and racing projects company managed by Michel Desjoyaux

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Can't find the designer assuming it's not Francois Chevalier :). It bears some resemblance to the mini 888. Not sure if this is a serious projection, but anyhow if you get the foils working correctly, you would probably not need a scow bow, as the foils will keep the bow flying and also create enough RM to lessen the need of a wide hull

Yes the designer is Chevalier . It's a design made to illustrate the paper ,not to submit for build

..

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I would be very surprised if Beneteau was wanting to build a canter. It has already been announced that Bene is staying on with the Figaro-3.

 

That said, it looks like a cool boat but not cheap to build or run

 

Canting Keel is in ! as part of the specs set by the class committee for the designers to work from.

 

On the other hand, as one could expect, Beneteau has got an "industrial feasibility factor" into the designer choice criteria.

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It seems most of you guys don't get that this is an "artist representation"made to illustrate the article.

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I would be very surprised if Beneteau was wanting to build a canter. It has already been announced that Bene is staying on with the Figaro-3.

 

That said, it looks like a cool boat but not cheap to build or run

 

Canting Keel is in ! as part of the specs set by the class committee for the designers to work from.

 

On the other hand, as one could expect, Beneteau has got an "industrial feasibility factor" into the designer choice criteria.

 

 

Sounds a crazy proposal for Beneteau still...

 

PS: 'ello Moody.

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All those dangly bits may be deriguer in the big boats, but will massively increase campaign costs for the Figaro sailors. The present hulls can be rafted up, kept in the water long term, are basic, robust boats. The vid's of crazy crashes are either crew mistakes (the vid above they had 1/2 full water tanks, bow dug in & all the water went forward) or pushing really hard in big breeze. A swing keel foiler may be quicker (but they race one design) but will add a lot of complexity.

Up to the class to decide, but they already have the top rep for training short handed sailors who seem to be able to progress to more complicated boats OK. Also wonder if autopilots can respond fast enuff to a much more dynamic hull. The IMOCA's are working hard to get pilots dialed in, but they are much more stable compared to a 30' (or close) hull shape.

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Fixed keel and use DSS to increase RM, so a light bulb and therefore light all up weight.Only one extra appendage.

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low weight is the way to go.. (to make use of DSS otherwise no need). How much weight diff between canting keel and fixed one? Canting keel would save further weight on bulb and mast. Being a bit heavier in the CoG of the hull won't make much difference in weight penalty.

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low weight is the way to go.. (to make use of DSS otherwise no need). How much weight diff between canting keel and fixed one? Canting keel would save further weight on bulb and mast. Being a bit heavier in the CoG of the hull won't make much difference in weight penalty.

 

 

all that work to make a crappy trimaran.....

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ok were back on scow bow. :D

 

20150611SimonJourdan-6110114.jpg

 

browsed in DSS website..

 

20130405_quillagedss_003_0.jpg

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It seems most of you guys don't get that this is an "artist representation"made to illustrate the article.

 

playing with photoshop (quickly). im guessing that is designed by Mer forte. (cool projects they have http://www.merforte.com/#!projets/clxt )

 

attachicon.giffigaro3.jpg

 

"This design" is an *artist's impression* ("une projection d'artiste" - http://www.voilesetvoiliers.com/popup/mais-quel-est-ce-bateau-/) by François Chevalier. It does not represent one of the designs in the running but rather his idea of what it might be like. It is emphatically *not* designed by Mer Forte - while the real winning design might well be.

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ok ..

 

it's still fun discuss the latest trends here :) since its a 30ft boat we are talking about, it probably doesn't need that much appendages as imoca 60, probably stay closer to mini transat design.

 

I'd love to see something from from finot & manuard. That would be something. 3 years away from the production 2019?

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[...]

 

I'd love to see something from from finot & manuard. That would be something. 3 years away from the production 2019?

 

As they're working together we're going to see how that turns out. I'm sure they will at least show off the design even if it doesn't get selected.

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It's fastest because you are comparing it against boats of the same length (length restrictions). What's the advantage of a scow over a boat 10% longer (or whatever)? It would be neither cheaper nor faster. Figaro doesn't have a length restriction and since they are one-design does it matter if the boats are all 1% faster? For Figaro, the racing would be the same whether the boats are scows or not and the difference would go unnoticed because they would all be the same regardless of which way they go with the design.

 

Scows only make sense if you don't have the option of going longer (Mini's and IMOCA 60's) and aren't one-design.

Itd be shame if Figaro 3 is barely faster than F2.

What for improvements do you suggest in order to replace the 10 years design and stay competitive as long as possible.

F1 is quite slow compared to 2. So by lowering weight (canting keel, eventual carbon mast), adding a few inches in length and other small features improving the overall speed, all that makes sense for next generation of Figaro class. Don't you think so?

Again, competing in Figaro class is not for everyone. If one wants choose a design one wants, there is class 40 and mini.

Figaro sailors want the newest stuffs. Budget is not a concern as many of sailors are pros.

I can assure you budget is very much a concern. But also the figaro is often regarded as the world championships for single handed sailing and the design of he figaro II complemented that. I would expect the new figaro to have some new features in keeping with modern boats, I would like to think it would have a rotating bowsprit to carry an asymmetric spinnaker. Single Swept spreaders with square top main, kite sheet outriggers and a t keel and twin rudders. I think a subtle update in design will present new challenges because these days there is nothing left to discover in the way the figaro II sails and no more performance to extract. One thing to remember is that the quality of the racing always has to take priority and you get that with a more simple boat. Oh and you can forget building the hull in carbon

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The 3 selected designers have to submit their final draft drawings next week, which will then be reviewed and designers interviewed etc, before winner is announced. With their foiling/canting experience it is hard to imagine the Fig3 will not incorporate the performance gains of both, particularly as it is slightly shorter than the Fig2.

 

Beneteau will also want something that demonstrates performance excellence is not just the domain of custom building and can be generated by an industrial/production build. The extra cost of a canting keel is probably irrelevant as Beneteau will be subsidising the cost anyway to guarantee the fixed price of 150K Euro complete.

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This is like all good/bad Anarchy threads - a real life example of people collectively being the Hear nothing, Say Nothing, See Nothing, 3 (un)Wise Monkeys!

 

Tip - "emphatically" means, FFS, go learn comprehension i.e. reading and writing beyond junior grade......

 

The Figaro 3 will; like its forebears' be "the training boat" for wannabe IMOCA sailors. IMOCA is already well down this path and come November we shall see where the bullshit stops and the results will speak for themselves - be that good/bad or folly vs. genius.

 

The mini transat fleet is already well into theses style of designs.

 

So there is no point in having the Middle division remaining in traditional old school designs. The final design choice will not be selected til after the completion of the Vendee - still leaving plenty of time to deliver for a fleet debut of 2019.

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Boink I wouldn't say minis are already well into these styles. Canting keels yes, but no new Mini's have appeared yet under the new rule allowing appendages outside the box and there has only been one built with RM foils inside the box. Therefore the Figs are not too far behind in foil development.

 

As for selecting a designer surely they don't need a year to settle on that from final drafts that they recieve next week, so I would have thought a designer will be announced well before not after the Vendee. They also want a protype on the water next year so need a fair bit of time to do final details in conjunction with production team to achieve that target, noting production level detailing is very time consuming.

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There is a new rule for the minis allowing more external foils - LeoV would have the details...... Very much more encouraging the moustache style development - but it only came in after the last race finished - so little will be seen until the new season gets going - and this is their "quiet" year (the mini transat being Biannual).

 

I am NOT stating facts; but my reasoning behind the different divisions is more than reasonable.

 

I was reacting more to the retarded comments about the designer....... Highlighting the lack of comprehension being displayed here.

 

(I was lucky enough to be in Cherbourg when they had just launched the Figaro 2 and the amount of excitement amongst the crews (at a 60ft MUlti Grand prix event) was very evident. It was a big step away from the original Figaro OD. I can only imagine that v.3 will also be a big step.)

 

Carry on.

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I was reacting more to the retarded comments about the designer.......

 

there was no designer at first place. Go back and work on your reading comprehension. :D

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The 3 selected designers have to submit their final draft drawings next week, which will then be reviewed and designers interviewed etc, before winner is announced. With their foiling/canting experience it is hard to imagine the Fig3 will not incorporate the performance gains of both, particularly as it is slightly shorter than the Fig2.

 

Beneteau will also want something that demonstrates performance excellence is not just the domain of custom building and can be generated by an industrial/production build. The extra cost of a canting keel is probably irrelevant as Beneteau will be subsidising the cost anyway to guarantee the fixed price of 150K Euro complete.

 

+1

 

DSS foils look sturdy, might hold better in many years. Moustaches, not so much.. The rest is easier to guess (canting keel etc.)

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Tip - "emphatically" means, FFS, go learn comprehension i.e. reading and writing beyond junior grade......

 

The Figaro 3 will; like its forebears' be ...

 

 

 

You may wish to learn about Muphry's Law whilst you're at it.

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Brilliant. It is what I have imagined. Kidding....

 

Very close to class 950, no surprise there. It looks light? A separate deck/companionway module? Different material?

 

Moustache placed upside down should last longer and acting more like dagger.

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Moustache placed upside down should last longer and acting more like dagger.

 

 

Why would it last longer?

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Moustache placed upside down should last longer and acting more like dagger.

 

 

Why would it last longer?

 

 

using it as dagger, it puts less stress on the joints compared to conventional moustaches which takes all load underside water.

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ELLIOTT 35 SS This is heading to the US after being raced shorthanded and crewed in NZ .. sistership Crusader still there

similar idea Canting/ Fat Head but without foils Hell of a Design

 

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Dutch Boy. Leeboard with sideboard.

post-32003-0-28960900-1459305020_thumb.jpg

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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I didnt realise VPLP has won the Fig III design gig subject to final steering committee signoff...no details yet other that it will include their latest foil development.

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im not surprised and im happy how it turned out!

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It's fastest because you are comparing it against boats of the same length (length restrictions). What's the advantage of a scow over a boat 10% longer (or whatever)? It would be neither cheaper nor faster. Figaro doesn't have a length restriction and since they are one-design does it matter if the boats are all 1% faster? For Figaro, the racing would be the same whether the boats are scows or not and the difference would go unnoticed because they would all be the same regardless of which way they go with the design.

 

Scows only make sense if you don't have the option of going longer (Mini's and IMOCA 60's) and aren't one-design.

 

Foils and scow because they are positioning the Figaro as the path-to-IMOCA par excellence.

 

Every wannabe pro, IMOCA aspiring, mini-graduate, young hotshot will be racing the Figaro 3.

 

And the design briefing calls for "atlantic crossing".

 

They just killed the Class 40. It will become a stagnanted class for old, fat wealthy men with delusions of someday quitting the job and doing a Global Ocean Race.

 

not sure if u noticed but a lot of innovations originally is funded by old fat welathy men....who do quit jobs and do some racing ....might even be you someday if you're lucky and work hard.

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Foils and scow because they are positioning the Figaro as the path-to-IMOCA par excellence.

 

Every wannabe pro, IMOCA aspiring, mini-graduate, young hotshot will be racing the Figaro 3.

 

And the design briefing calls for "atlantic crossing".

 

They just killed the Class 40. It will become a stagnanted class for old, fat wealthy men with delusions of someday quitting the job and doing a Global Ocean Race.

not sure if u noticed but a lot of innovations originally is funded by old fat welathy men....who do quit jobs and do some racing ....might even be you someday if you're lucky and work hard.

 

Yep, old fat wealthy men are useless and pathetic, but they do fund things.

 

I know: I'm old and very fat. Still working on the "wealthy" thing. Not lucky. And, someday, I will buy me a Class 40.

 

:D

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VPLP news a979de5d-7e5e-4662-9804-5dc2996eeb2c.jpg

Nothing new in vlpl website? Id love see more pictures

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Are monohulls like the racewalkers of sailboats?

 

Probably. But look at how many people walk instead of run.

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I think a boat like the Pogo 30 w/the single spreader carbon rig and square top main would be an excellent candidate for the Figaro III. Swap out the lifting keel for a canting one w/daggerboards. Maybe make the sprit "articulable". If more tech is needed, add outriggers and make the mast rotatable.

 

Plus I think the foam core gives a significant safety factor in case of a hull breach.

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That would be a step backwards. Pogo 30 is a fat pig, 6100 for a 30f'er..... no offense to pigs.

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I'll be doing a full podcast with Vincent (VPLP) in a few days in France. I'll drag this thread for questions to ask him, so if you have any, ask them or send me an email at clean@sailinganarchy.com with "PODCAST QUESTIONS" in the subject line.

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Podcast question: At just 33', the hull speed of the boat will be very low compared to the larger boats where we've seen the mustache foil. What boat speed will be required to get it up on the foil and will the boat have sufficient speed upwind to get up on the foil? What wind speed will be required to get the boat up to this speed? And will the foil (even when retracted) add to drag that will reduce the boat speed while it is attempting to get up on the foil?

 

Also, did they compare this design with the straight DSS foil?

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Clean, I just listened to your long and boring VPLP podcast and you didn't ask the questions I posted. Why should we bother to get involved if you won't even follow up? I sure won't be listening to any others.

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This is sure to turn Doug's head spinning.

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Is this a canting keel proposal as well?

The photos suggest that the flat foil through the hull is continuous, not stacked as two separate pieces either vertically or horizontally.

Curious to know how the foil would actually be built?
If you consider that the foil seems to be a continuous piece of straight foil linking the 2 elbows - this would lead to an elegant way to deploy both sides at once with the minimum about of mechanical hardware. Which is good for both weight and simplicity of operation in a short handed boat.

However as a continuous one piece construction (for strength) this would place the join in the foil at either in the centre, which would sit somewhere near the through hull exit bearing - or be out near either (or both) elbow points - but this is another highly loaded point of failure.

So how would this this be built? And more importantly be maintained - should an end be knocked off in a collision.
Titanium elbow socket joints seem to be the solution but how much longevity and abuse can they take?

Anyone seen this model in person?

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15326190_1467951789885063_40132487662658

 

I do like this version with only 2 pieces of string. Much simpler to sail.

 

Why did nobody else ever think of building an offshore raceboat which dispenses with halyards, spinnaker controls, windward jib sheets, reefing lines, adjustable backstays, mainsheet traveller controls, adjustable vang, jib lead adjustments etc?

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A little surprised that the projected target speeds are not that much different than the Figaro2. Only major change appears to be 25 knots and above around 120-130 TWA

 

CywVokiWQAENc1b.jpg

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looks good but this is a production boat not some one off no expense spared, ultralight custom build, and beneteau is known for many things but building ultralight, ultra stiff racing boats isn't one of them. I highly doubt the boats will be light enough to really benefit from the foils, the other thing is that the figaro beneteau class has always been a value based fleet, cheaper than the lighter, more high tech and thus expensive classes like the class 40.

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So foils replace waterballast, an assymmetric spi, a bit lighter keel.

I can see an easier to handle boat, and better acceleration.

Not suprised its only a bit faster.

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They claim to be " the first one-design production foiling monohull ever devised." That is 100% false!! The Q23 beat them by a couple of years and the Flo1 by about 6 months. Amazing BS!

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I'm not so sure two classes with maybe a dozen hulls (mostly / all Quants) between them necessarily classifies you as a production boat, wouldn't that require series production, something we know will happen with the Figaro 3.

 

Beyond that they're completely different types of boats. Figaros are ocean racers, the Quant is a lake day racer and the Flo is a dinghy. I think they're entitled to a little leeway in their marketing. I certainly wouldn't go so far as to call it "Amazing BS"

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Claiming something that is 100% false is not "a little leeway"-it is blatant misrepresentation! The first foiling keelboat in the history of the world was the Quant 23 and that was/is a big deal. To try to revise history with an outright fabrication is disgusting-especially for a major manufacturer.

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Claiming something that is 100% false is not "a little leeway"-it is blatant misrepresentation! The first foiling keelboat in the history of the world was the Quant 23 and that was/is a big deal. To try to revise history with an outright fabrication is disgusting-especially for a major manufacturer.

Welbourn’s Quant 23 may not be the first fully foiling monohull—the foiling Moth and the Glide Free kit for Lasers predate it—but it is the first ballast keel-equipped monohull to foil.

 

But the Figaro3 looks really interesting, having watched the Vendee Globe boats over the past month!!!

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Claiming something that is 100% false is not "a little leeway"-it is blatant misrepresentation! The first foiling keelboat in the history of the world was the Quant 23 and that was/is a big deal. To try to revise history with an outright fabrication is disgusting-especially for a major manufacturer.

How many Q23 were built? I noticed the claim is to be the first foiling 'production' monohull.

Pedantic maybe, but it could make the claim correct.

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Claiming something that is 100% false is not "a little leeway"-it is blatant misrepresentation! The first foiling keelboat in the history of the world was the Quant 23 and that was/is a big deal. To try to revise history with an outright fabrication is disgusting-especially for a major manufacturer.

will you for once just shut the fuck up and not have a temper tantrum?

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Claiming something that is 100% false is not "a little leeway"-it is blatant misrepresentation! The first foiling keelboat in the history of the world was the Quant 23 and that was/is a big deal. To try to revise history with an outright fabrication is disgusting-especially for a major manufacturer.

How many Q23 were built? I noticed the claim is to be the first foiling 'production' monohull.

Pedantic maybe, but it could make the claim correct.

 

 

The Q23 is in ongoing production...

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They claim to be " the first one-design production foiling monohull ever devised." That is 100% false!! The Q23 beat them by a couple of years and the Flo1 by about 6 months. Amazing BS!

 

Fuck off DL, read it properly, they offer- NOT They claim to be, its probably a bad translation from that site, not Beneteau.

Read it as : The One Design Class Figaro Is Going to foiL on New prOduced Beneteaus .

Your so stupid. I know you UnderssTAND uSELESS cAPITOls BEtter.

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Claiming something that is 100% false is not "a little leeway"-it is blatant misrepresentation! The first foiling keelboat in the history of the world was the Quant 23 and that was/is a big deal. To try to revise history with an outright fabrication is disgusting-especially for a major manufacturer.

How many Q23 were built? I noticed the claim is to be the first foiling 'production' monohull.

Pedantic maybe, but it could make the claim correct.

 

 

The Q23 is in ongoing production...

 

and how many have they built and are are currently sailing doug?

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10 or more

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I don't know, they have that one photoshopped picture of 10 boats but other than that the most they've ever shown in one place is 4 or 5. Anyhow, there's a huge difference between building a Swiss lake boat and an offshore singlehander. Almost as big as the difference between a model trimaran sailed once in a Florida pond three years ago and Maserati.

 

Back on topic, I really preferred the original drawings from the Spring but given I've got no dog in this hunt, it's cool that there's a new more modern Figaro coming either way.

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Polars are showing highest speeds of around 14 knots. Not exactly ripping it so the foils seem of limited value. By comparison, the classe 950 has shown that it is capable of well in excess of 20 knots with old fashioned water ballast..

 

Seems to me a case of style over substance to be using foils.

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Polars are showing highest speeds of around 14 knots. Not exactly ripping it so the foils seem of limited value. By comparison, the classe 950 has shown that it is capable of well in excess of 20 knots with old fashioned water ballast..

 

Seems to me a case of style over substance to be using foils.

yeah but they look cool.

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