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      Abbreviated rules   07/28/2017

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Presuming Ed

Is this the Figaro III?

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Come on Staysail, give it a break. No one has ever rafted up a bunch of foiling monos...there have never been that many in existence! 

Are you really advocating sticking to the a Figaro 2 or similar old design just so we can all park more easily? Okay, you are right the foam slabs they use now will not work, but would you not give up easy parking and skinny fenders for the chance to race 30 of these boats?

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42 minutes ago, MR.CLEAN said:

Do you really need to argue with a guy who has proven himself to know nothing?

So what do you know about this Clean? Attended many Solitaire events? Stayed at a Figaro training base through a winter?

(I have, by the way.)

And great to see you still can't resist commenting on my posts!

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2 hours ago, Potter said:

Come on Staysail, give it a break. No one has ever rafted up a bunch of foiling monos...there have never been that many in existence! 

Are you really advocating sticking to the a Figaro 2 or similar old design just so we can all park more easily?

So why make it sound so easy when you can't possibly know what will happen handling these things? and I personally think the Figaro 2 is still an ideal boat in terms of finess for its purpose. The figaro III looks like a dogs breakfast and a compromise design to me, and just change for change's sake. I would far prefer people who want to evolve design ideas doing it in things like mini racing. I certainly can't see the sense in imposing a basically untried concept like this boat on an already highly successful and by no means small, racing fleet.

And as to your comment

"Okay, you are right the foam slabs they use now will not work, but would you not give up easy parking and skinny fenders for the chance to race 30 of these boats?"

Assuming thirty of these things get bought fairly soon that is going to consume a significant amount of money, and if i was a young up and coming sailor and not very rich, I think I would far prefer to see the class continue as is.

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2 hours ago, Potter said:

Okay, well that is your opinion. 

All the Figarists that I know are really excited by the change.

 

Well I guess you know the ones with rich sponsors. And those who don't own a Fig 2.

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4 hours ago, staysail said:

Well I guess you know the ones with rich sponsors. And those who don't own a Fig 2.

I know some with good sponsors, some who have changed sponsors a lot,  some who are just surviving, and most who own their boat. The general consensus is that the time is right for a change, and that the interest is there. 

Obviously it does not suit what you would like. You have been clear about that. It doesn't stop this from being a very cool step in one design offshore racing, in other people's opinions. I happen to fall on the side of the second sentence, so I guess we are the lucky ones getting what we want.

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6 hours ago, jack_sparrow said:

Anyone who doesn't think that is a pretty cool 35 footer has got rocks in their head.

And the Figaro 2 still works and can be sailed by those who prefer them.

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8 hours ago, hoppy said:

And the Figaro 2 still works and can be sailed by those who prefer them.

Yes Hopmeister ...and don't forget the Fig 1 for those on whatever it is  that is smaller than a shoestring.

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One cool option would be to have a Corinthian class in the Figaro using the Figaro n-1 boat with n the current class number. 

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On 28/07/2017 at 4:49 PM, CrushDigital said:

What, like any other foil on a boat? Come on, you can do better than that.

Use your brain...torsional loads on hitting something with the end of the foils are what did for most of the imoca foils, bending loads and impacts are a lot easier to deal with on foils without severe bends or distortions.   Make them bulletproof and then the weight goes out of the window. Savvy?

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Are those foils going to need fences to prevent cavitation? I'd imagine there'd be disturbed flow caused by the hull where they enter the water.... but I have an active imagination, and lack a hydrodynamics degree. 

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Until there is some real data to convince me otherwise, it seems like a silly design for the new Figaro.  Besides the foils it's a nice looking boat though. 

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1 minute ago, r.finn said:

Until there is some real data to convince me otherwise, it seems like a silly design for the new Figaro.  Besides the foils it's a nice looking boat though. 

I'd have to agree with that.

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On ‎8‎/‎3‎/‎2017 at 0:32 AM, Flippin Out said:

Could be interesting in a big fleet on a short line racking up for a start. Bye Bye foil.

I'd imagine much like a crowded downwind start where you wait to pop the kite until you've crossed the line, the skippers would keep the foils retracted in the pre-start.

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6 hours ago, CrushDigital said:

I'd imagine much like a crowded downwind start where you wait to pop the kite until you've crossed the line, the skippers would keep the foils retracted in the pre-start.

You realise these guys are racing for inches at a time...

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10 hours ago, JL92S said:

You realise these guys are racing for inches at a time...

What's the betting that the SIs will mandate foils retracted until after crossing the start line?  A little like the mini transat only allow foils that extend the beam to be deployed after the start.

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well it's certainly an expensive option to add in foils like these and how long before they have some failures I wonder.  This pic  surfaced and didn't seem to be that quick either.  Guess there will be a few amendments along the line though

 

fig3.jpg

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40 minutes ago, GBH said:

well it's certainly an expensive option to add in foils like these and how long before they have some failures I wonder.  This pic  surfaced and didn't seem to be that quick either.  Guess there will be a few amendments along the line though

 

fig3.jpg

They didn't enter one in the Fastnet did they? It would have been interesting to see how it would do against the F2.

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16 hours ago, JL92S said:

You realise these guys are racing for inches at a time...

And like every other start, if they are on the line, powered up, in clear air, at zero, there are no more inches to give. 

You're not going to be deploying and retracting the foils through the maneuvering of a pre-start, there's just not enough manpower when at best you're doublehanded. so in your model, you'd need both foils out, this not only restricts your ability to maneuver but I'd imagine would be very draggy when downspeed.

Just because you can do something doesn't mean you should (which coincidentally seems to be the opinion of a lot of the people here when it comes to the foils in the first place).

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3 hours ago, Chasm said:

2 Figaro II are entered into the 2017 Fastnet. (GBR 21, GBR 85) 
No Figaro III. Would have been too easy. 

....and very public!

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11 hours ago, Chasm said:

2 Figaro II are entered into the 2017 Fastnet. (GBR 21, GBR 85) 
No Figaro III. Would have been too easy. 

Are you serious?

It's a totally new boat design and new concept that needs to be tested. I think Beneteau will have more important things to do with the F3 than to get it up to Cat2 and measured for IRC.

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The question was if any were entered, they are not.
Having a few of them racing the Fastnet would have been a nice comparison against a very broad fleet of other boats. Since that did not happen we'll have to wait another 2 years. Perhaps some will enter the 2019 edition.

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Er..... there's only one in existence at the moment. Why bother to race against other boats, and away from the commissioning yard, when it's designed for OD racing. 

Much better to day sail the prototype and get data and fix problems at home. 

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14 hours ago, Presuming Ed said:

Er..... there's only one in existence at the moment. Why bother to race against other boats, and away from the commissioning yard, when it's designed for OD racing. 

Much better to day sail the prototype and get data and fix problems at home. 

this. it's a brand new design, this is hull number one. they're going shake down the shit out of that thing before straying to far from the yard. the time to find problems and work out kinks is now before the production line really gets rolling. give it time. 

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Very cool looking boat. I just can't help thinking it would have been a lot more appealing for anyone without a big bucks sponsorship if they had just kept the water ballast instead of the foils... or gone with a fully retracting DSS type foil assist...

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Great to see ,     Thanks Leo

 ....it will be interesting to see the actual number of boats that get built for the first race.....15....30 or more . what a task for this year . very interseting to see

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Haven't seen these posted; apols if it has:

Seems decent downhill

And uphill

 

 

I note that Fig IIs are still in use for 2018. Per V&V La Solitaire Urgo will be their swan song, and twitter reports abound of fettling for this year

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Fettling ?

Fettling definition, the material with which the hearth of a puddling furnace is lined, usually a dolomite or refractory mixture

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Fettling the engine of a racecar.....sorting out all the components that make a race motor into a  fully Tuned race motor ....going through the options available

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Ah, thanks.

That foil , will it actually generate enough vertical lift I wonder. So it is waiting till I see a good video showing that I reckon....

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1 hour ago, LeoV said:

Ah, thanks.

That foil , will it actually generate enough vertical lift I wonder. So it is waiting till I see a good video showing that I reckon....

Not seeing anything remarkable yet.  Looks more like lateral resistance if any?

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Quote

That foil , will it actually generate enough vertical lift I wonder.

I've been questioning that myself since the first drawings came out.  I just can't see how it helps to keep the boat upright, when compared to a normal DSS board.  And watching the second video above, with the boat healing dramatically, hasn't changed my thoughts yet.

And internally, really clean except for the head bonking line channel beams running down each side.  All of this just to put the lines under the deck???   I don't like the looks of those at all.

image.thumb.png.c3f9332a0eb2c5683e39e3c46b5cecc5.png

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I doubt the sailors racing those boats will hide their feelings about the Figaro 3's drawbacks.  If there are any, I think we'll hear about them.  Too bad it won't be sooner.

 

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Those boats race inshore...coastal.   Coastal waters are litterd with surface junk.  

Foils are good for clean water oceanic racers...the coastal guys will regret those foils 

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A fleet of one design boats will quickly demonstrate the value, or lack thereof, of these foils. Looking forward to the results of this grand experiment!

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On 1/9/2018 at 5:16 PM, Foolish said:

I've been questioning that myself since the first drawings came out.  I just can't see how it helps to keep the boat upright, when compared to a normal DSS board.  And watching the second video above, with the boat healing dramatically, hasn't changed my thoughts yet.

And internally, really clean except for the head bonking line channel beams running down each side.  All of this just to put the lines under the deck???   I don't like the looks of those at all.

image.thumb.png.c3f9332a0eb2c5683e39e3c46b5cecc5.png

The DSS foils have a horizontal force component toward leeward when heeling whereas for these foils it is toward windward which should work well with apparent wind forward of the beam. Of course it helps with righting moment, it's like having a wider boat.

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I'm sure we will get plenty of opinions once the fleet is released to the sailors. 

If you're struggling to understand how the foils generate righting moment, think about how horizontal wings generate lift on an aircraft. Now rotate the wing surface 270°. 

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The foils are not to fly the hull out of the water - they are to contribute righting moment without extra weight. So the F 3 has no ballast tanks, and a lighter keel.

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There seems to be a lateral resistance component as well in this foil.  

I wonder if you couldn't get the same or more righting moment with DSS?  

What's the point of the foil coming out from under the deck?  In the Tweet above, most of the entire foil was in the water anyway.  That part, the arm (?), couldn't be providing anything but drag, no?

 

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I put the drawing into photoshop and came up with this.  The top drawing is the Figaro III healing in the water. The arrow show the direction of lift of the foil.  The bottom drawing shows what it would look like if they'd used a standard DSS foil.  I'm sure that I have misunderstood something but it just looks like you'd get more righting moment from the DSS foil.  I'll try to find a copy of Yachts & Yachting magazine to read their review.   I'm sure the designers know what they are doing.  I just can't figure it out.

Figaro III and DSS.jpg

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You can't measure RM by speculating the foils direction. You have to look at the aspect ratio of the lifting surface. 

The Figaro foil also provides upwind benefit of resisting leeway, also seems intuitively safer should foil impact something and shear off. 

Also mounted at the top increase the leverage.

Do this experiment with me. 

1. Take a half empty bottle of something large like water or milk. 

2. Tilt the container 30° Holding it at the bottom. Tilt the every which way. 

3. Tilt the container 30° Holding it at the middle or top. Tilt it every which way. 

 

There's a reason why mugs and large containers of water don't have handles at the center of gravity or bottom. 

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Nice Foolish, see the direction of the force, f3 foil is lifting more  in the direction of LCB, the Dss not, it uses almost the LCB as rotation point.

So one is lifting the boat out of the water and creating RM, the other only creating RM and flatten the boat.

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Foolish's illustration helps.  I get it now.  Still, I imagine it would be best to keep the top part out of the water as much as possible.

And it seems that there must be an optimum foil/heel angle past which the foil is less effective?

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That's what it looks like to me too Leo.  But in the articles they've said over and over that it is not intended to lift the boat out of the water.    But it looks like that is exactly what it will do.  I will have lots of trouble getting that Y&Y article here in Canada.  If you can find it, please scan me a copy.

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It will lift it a bit, not much, to small for that. And how more the lift the more the drag.

If they only wanted to replace waterballast with foil, a DSS could do it.

So I am confused too.

Sorry the Y&Y article is  hard to get for me too.. Need  a 100 km trip for that :)

I rely on Tip&shaft newsletter to read news.

closer look at foil

170904fb3foil-4a761.jpg?1515223740

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On 1/9/2018 at 8:16 AM, Foolish said:

I've been questioning that myself since the first drawings came out.  I just can't see how it helps to keep the boat upright, when compared to a normal DSS board.  And watching the second video above, with the boat healing dramatically, hasn't changed my thoughts yet.

And internally, really clean except for the head bonking line channel beams running down each side.  All of this just to put the lines under the deck???   I don't like the looks of those at all.

image.thumb.png.c3f9332a0eb2c5683e39e3c46b5cecc5.png

Think handrails, if you have bigass hands like me.

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I get the concept now. Whether it actually works to an advantage is another story.

A lot has to do with the point of leverage, as Miffy said earlier, at the top.  Also, there is less to leverage (to push to windward) without all the water ballast weight.  

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25 minutes ago, LeoV said:

It will lift it a bit, not much, to small for that. And how more the lift the more the drag.

If they only wanted to replace waterballast with foil, a DSS could do it.

So I am confused too.

Sorry the Y&Y article is  hard to get for me too.. Need  a 100 km trip for that :)

I rely on Tip&shaft newsletter to read news.

closer look at foil

170904fb3foil-4a761.jpg?1515223740

That’s not a very nice looking internal kink on the foil!! Maybe it’s just the picture. 

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16 hours ago, Foolish said:

I put the drawing into photoshop and came up with this.  The top drawing is the Figaro III healing in the water. The arrow show the direction of lift of the foil.  The bottom drawing shows what it would look like if they'd used a standard DSS foil.  I'm sure that I have misunderstood something but it just looks like you'd get more righting moment from the DSS foil.  I'll try to find a copy of Yachts & Yachting magazine to read their review.   I'm sure the designers know what they are doing.  I just can't figure it out.

 

 

Taking your diagrams and resolving the foil forces you show on them into vertical and horizontal components what we see is that the Figaro 3 foil and the DSS both give similar vertical up components and at a similar distance out from the boat hull centre of buoyancy so the righting moment from this vertical component looks similar in each case. The inward component from the Figaro 3 design acts on the foil well below the water line, actually below the bottom of the hull, so depending on the vertical position of the centre of lateral resistance this could actually subtract from the righting moment. The DSS style gives a horizontal component which is much smaller and which acts outwards and at a much shallower depth, so this component will have hardly any effect on righting moment. My conclusion is that for the arrangements you show in your diagrams:_
1) the DSS style will give more righting moment
2) both will give an approximately equal amount of vertical lift which reduces wetted area of the hull
3) the Figaro 3 style will impart an inward a force which will oppose leeway
4) the DSS foil results in an outward force component which may slightly increase leeway
If one considers the effect of angle of heel, as the boat heels more the Figaro 3 style gives more vertical lift and less side force, meaning that as the boat heels more its righting moment may increase, but this depends on whether the moment arm (distance from the centre of buoyancy to the line of action of the foil force) reduces enough to cancel out the effect of the increased vertical component. With the DSS design the vertical lift will reduce and the horizontal component increases but the righting moment will change very little because the contribution to righting moment from the horizontal component increases as that from the vertical component decreases.
To sum up it does seem to be quite complicated and dependant on the characteristics of the hull and other appendages which determine locations of centre of buoyancy, centre of lateral resistance etc. all of which change with angle of heel, and with speed dependent lift forces which act both on the hull and on the foil.
It will indeed be very interesting to see how this Figaro 3 actually performs in racing especially when up against the Figaro 2. One interesting thing to have come out of the Mini racing last year was that the foiling boats did not do as well as expected and some people I have talked with about this feel that the Mini is simply too small in relation to average wave sizes to enable the boat to sail with the foils well aligned with the water flow across them for a large enough fraction of the time. In perfect conditions for them the foiling boats are very fast but perfect conditions for a mini to do this are rare! This is not the case with the Imocas where on balance it is becoming a definite advantage to have a foil. The Figaro is significantly bigger than a mini but nowhere as big as an Imoca so I think it will really be interesting to see how this one goes in actual races.

Fig 3 foils.jpg

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1 hour ago, staysail said:

 

Taking your diagrams and resolving the foil forces you show on them into vertical and horizontal components what we see is that the Figaro 3 foil and the DSS both give similar vertical up components and at a similar distance out from the boat hull centre of buoyancy so the righting moment from this vertical component looks similar in each case. The inward component from the Figaro 3 design acts on the foil well below the water line, actually below the bottom of the hull, so depending on the vertical position of the centre of lateral resistance this could actually subtract from the righting moment. The DSS style gives a horizontal component which is much smaller and which acts outwards and at a much shallower depth, so this component will have hardly any effect on righting moment. My conclusion is that for the arrangements you show in your diagrams:_
1) the DSS style will give more righting moment
2) both will give an approximately equal amount of vertical lift which reduces wetted area of the hull
3) the Figaro 3 style will impart an inward a force which will oppose leeway
4) the DSS foil results in an outward force component which may slightly increase leeway
If one considers the effect of angle of heel, as the boat heels more the Figaro 3 style gives more vertical lift and less side force, meaning that as the boat heels more its righting moment may increase, but this depends on whether the moment arm (distance from the centre of buoyancy to the line of action of the foil force) reduces enough to cancel out the effect of the increased vertical component. With the DSS design the vertical lift will reduce and the horizontal component increases but the righting moment will change very little because the contribution to righting moment from the horizontal component increases as that from the vertical component decreases.
To sum up it does seem to be quite complicated and dependant on the characteristics of the hull and other appendages which determine locations of centre of buoyancy, centre of lateral resistance etc. all of which change with angle of heel, and with speed dependent lift forces which act both on the hull and on the foil.
It will indeed be very interesting to see how this Figaro 3 actually performs in racing especially when up against the Figaro 2. One interesting thing to have come out of the Mini racing last year was that the foiling boats did not do as well as expected and some people I have talked with about this feel that the Mini is simply too small in relation to average wave sizes to enable the boat to sail with the foils well aligned with the water flow across them for a large enough fraction of the time. In perfect conditions for them the foiling boats are very fast but perfect conditions for a mini to do this are rare! This is not the case with the Imocas where on balance it is becoming a definite advantage to have a foil. The Figaro is significantly bigger than a mini but nowhere as big as an Imoca so I think it will really be interesting to see how this one goes in actual races.

Fig 3 foils.jpg

The Figaro 3 foil also adjusts angle of attack, the inboard bearing of the foil moves fore and aft in the case. The brochure pdf shows the foil control system

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Different type of sailing too - Figaro % wise will spend more time sailing up-wind compared to the IMOCA.

An interesting and exciting development for me as a spectator.

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On 1/13/2018 at 11:19 PM, mad said:

When do they start sailing them properly?

Couldn't find anything much about this year yet except for this calendar, on the Classe Figaro website. Not too easy to read or to follow though.

Projet-de-Calendrier-saison-2018-oct-17-jpeg.jpg

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Fig 3 delivery end of 2018.

 

Seahorse will have a write up:

A Play of Forces

Louis Vercauter, sailing instructor and student at the Antwerp Maritime Academy, joined us for sea trials to investigate the benefits of foils on a one-design yacht. While foils typically are used to lift the hull above the water, it quickly became clear that we were not dealing with a flying boat.

The faster we sailed, the more stable was the boat.

http://emag.nauticexpo.com/article-long/video-tested-figaro-iii-new-way-foil/

 

 

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From the article you quote: "The foils also prevent drift.”   Yes, that's correct. The vertical portion of the foil acts as a dagger board.   When I interviewed IMOCA 60 designer Merfyn Owen in my singlehanded book about those boats he described dagger boards as twisting the bow of the boat into the wind, so that it shoots through the water straight like a dart, rather than crabbing sideways as most boats function.  This makes me wonder if the new Figaro IIIs have reduced weather helm?  Dagger boards can be used to eliminate weather helm.

"The lift of the foil reduces pitch and reduces wetted surface."  That is also correct.  When I interviewed Hugh Welbourn about his DSS he said that a major benefit of the foil was in increasing stability: "It makes the boat feel 10 - 15 feet longer overall."  And reducing wetted surface comes from lifting the boat just a few inches higher in the water.

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