Is this the Figaro III?

[Potter 646]

Come on Staysail, give it a break. No one has ever rafted up a bunch of foiling monos...there have never been that many in existence! 

Are you really advocating sticking to the a Figaro 2 or similar old design just so we can all park more easily? Okay, you are right the foam slabs they use now will not work, but would you not give up easy parking and skinny fenders for the chance to race 30 of these boats?

[MR.CLEAN 3,822]

Do you really need to argue with a guy who has proven himself to know nothing?

[staysail 310]

42 minutes ago, MR.CLEAN said:

Do you really need to argue with a guy who has proven himself to know nothing?

So what do you know about this Clean? Attended many Solitaire events? Stayed at a Figaro training base through a winter?

(I have, by the way.)

And great to see you still can't resist commenting on my posts!

[staysail 310]

2 hours ago, Potter said:

Come on Staysail, give it a break. No one has ever rafted up a bunch of foiling monos...there have never been that many in existence! 

Are you really advocating sticking to the a Figaro 2 or similar old design just so we can all park more easily?

So why make it sound so easy when you can't possibly know what will happen handling these things? and I personally think the Figaro 2 is still an ideal boat in terms of finess for its purpose. The figaro III looks like a dogs breakfast and a compromise design to me, and just change for change's sake. I would far prefer people who want to evolve design ideas doing it in things like mini racing. I certainly can't see the sense in imposing a basically untried concept like this boat on an already highly successful and by no means small, racing fleet.

And as to your comment

"Okay, you are right the foam slabs they use now will not work, but would you not give up easy parking and skinny fenders for the chance to race 30 of these boats?"

Assuming thirty of these things get bought fairly soon that is going to consume a significant amount of money, and if i was a young up and coming sailor and not very rich, I think I would far prefer to see the class continue as is.

[Potter 646]

Okay, well that is your opinion. 

All the Figarists that I know are really excited by the change.

 

[Panoramix 1,233]

 

[staysail 310]

2 hours ago, Potter said:

Okay, well that is your opinion. 

All the Figarists that I know are really excited by the change.

 

Well I guess you know the ones with rich sponsors. And those who don't own a Fig 2.

[Varan 1,706]

57 minutes ago, Panoramix said:

 

Thanks for posting!

[jack_sparrow 7,483]

Anyone who doesn't think that is a pretty cool 35 footer has got rocks in their head.

[Potter 646]

4 hours ago, staysail said:

Well I guess you know the ones with rich sponsors. And those who don't own a Fig 2.

I know some with good sponsors, some who have changed sponsors a lot,  some who are just surviving, and most who own their boat. The general consensus is that the time is right for a change, and that the interest is there. 

Obviously it does not suit what you would like. You have been clear about that. It doesn't stop this from being a very cool step in one design offshore racing, in other people's opinions. I happen to fall on the side of the second sentence, so I guess we are the lucky ones getting what we want.

[jack_sparrow 7,483]

8 hours ago, hoppy said:

And the Figaro 2 still works and can be sailed by those who prefer them.

Yes Hopmeister ...and don't forget the Fig 1 for those on whatever it is  that is smaller than a shoestring.

[Panoramix 1,233]

One cool option would be to have a Corinthian class in the Figaro using the Figaro n-1 boat with n the current class number. 

[GBH 64]

On 28/07/2017 at 4:49 PM, CrushDigital said:

What, like any other foil on a boat? Come on, you can do better than that.

Use your brain...torsional loads on hitting something with the end of the foils are what did for most of the imoca foils, bending loads and impacts are a lot easier to deal with on foils without severe bends or distortions.   Make them bulletproof and then the weight goes out of the window. Savvy?

[jack_sparrow 7,483]

In the drink pics off Saint Gilles Croix De Vie.

 

[ALL@SEA 247]

Are those foils going to need fences to prevent cavitation? I'd imagine there'd be disturbed flow caused by the hull where they enter the water.... but I have an active imagination, and lack a hydrodynamics degree. 

[Flippin Out 109]

Could be interesting in a big fleet on a short line racking up for a start. Bye Bye foil.

[r.finn 256]

Until there is some real data to convince me otherwise, it seems like a silly design for the new Figaro.  Besides the foils it's a nice looking boat though. 

[southerncross 3,901]

1 minute ago, r.finn said:

Until there is some real data to convince me otherwise, it seems like a silly design for the new Figaro.  Besides the foils it's a nice looking boat though. 

I'd have to agree with that.

[CrushDigital 17]

On ‎8‎/‎3‎/‎2017 at 0:32 AM, Flippin Out said:

Could be interesting in a big fleet on a short line racking up for a start. Bye Bye foil.

I'd imagine much like a crowded downwind start where you wait to pop the kite until you've crossed the line, the skippers would keep the foils retracted in the pre-start.

[JL92S 183]

6 hours ago, CrushDigital said:

I'd imagine much like a crowded downwind start where you wait to pop the kite until you've crossed the line, the skippers would keep the foils retracted in the pre-start.

You realise these guys are racing for inches at a time...

[Flaming 30]

10 hours ago, JL92S said:

You realise these guys are racing for inches at a time...

What's the betting that the SIs will mandate foils retracted until after crossing the start line?  A little like the mini transat only allow foils that extend the beam to be deployed after the start.

[staysail 310]

I am happy to see I am not alone in seeing problems ahead for the F3.

Moral is "When something is not broke, don't try and fix it!"

[GBH 64]

well it's certainly an expensive option to add in foils like these and how long before they have some failures I wonder.  This pic  surfaced and didn't seem to be that quick either.  Guess there will be a few amendments along the line though

 

[staysail 310]

40 minutes ago, GBH said:

well it's certainly an expensive option to add in foils like these and how long before they have some failures I wonder.  This pic  surfaced and didn't seem to be that quick either.  Guess there will be a few amendments along the line though

 

They didn't enter one in the Fastnet did they? It would have been interesting to see how it would do against the F2.

[Chasm 596]

2 Figaro II are entered into the 2017 Fastnet. (GBR 21, GBR 85) 
No Figaro III. Would have been too easy. 

[CrushDigital 17]

16 hours ago, JL92S said:

You realise these guys are racing for inches at a time...

And like every other start, if they are on the line, powered up, in clear air, at zero, there are no more inches to give. 

You're not going to be deploying and retracting the foils through the maneuvering of a pre-start, there's just not enough manpower when at best you're doublehanded. so in your model, you'd need both foils out, this not only restricts your ability to maneuver but I'd imagine would be very draggy when downspeed.

Just because you can do something doesn't mean you should (which coincidentally seems to be the opinion of a lot of the people here when it comes to the foils in the first place).

[staysail 310]

3 hours ago, Chasm said:

2 Figaro II are entered into the 2017 Fastnet. (GBR 21, GBR 85) 
No Figaro III. Would have been too easy. 

....and very public!

[Chasm 596]

The question was if any were entered, they are not.
Having a few of them racing the Fastnet would have been a nice comparison against a very broad fleet of other boats. Since that did not happen we'll have to wait another 2 years. Perhaps some will enter the 2019 edition.

[Presuming Ed 188]

Er..... there's only one in existence at the moment. Why bother to race against other boats, and away from the commissioning yard, when it's designed for OD racing. 

Much better to day sail the prototype and get data and fix problems at home. 

[frozenhawaiian 96]

14 hours ago, Presuming Ed said:

Er..... there's only one in existence at the moment. Why bother to race against other boats, and away from the commissioning yard, when it's designed for OD racing. 

Much better to day sail the prototype and get data and fix problems at home. 

this. it's a brand new design, this is hull number one. they're going shake down the shit out of that thing before straying to far from the yard. the time to find problems and work out kinks is now before the production line really gets rolling. give it time. 

[Panoramix 1,233]

They will probably have to do a few iterations for the foils, this is still a mix of art and science. 

 

[Presuming Ed 188]

 

[svendson 4]

Very cool looking boat. I just can't help thinking it would have been a lot more appealing for anyone without a big bucks sponsorship if they had just kept the water ballast instead of the foils... or gone with a fully retracting DSS type foil assist...

[Schakel 124]

On 19-3-2016 at 6:35 AM, Virgulino Ferreira said:

 

 

WOOT! 
Want One Of Those.

[jack_sparrow 7,483]

^^^ Shak you should first concentrate on leaving home and getting employment.

[Schakel 124]

1 hour ago, jack_sparrow said:

^^^ Shak you should first concentrate on leaving home and getting employment.

I had rather be sailing.

[LeoV 2,175]

A look at the yard,

http://no-frills-sailing.com/gianguido-girotti-sbeneteau-figaro-3/?utm_source=Tip+%26+Shaft&utm_campaign=ab6e2c00bb-EMAIL_CAMPAIGN_2017_12_20&utm_medium=email&utm_term=0_af455e7661-ab6e2c00bb-53637281

[jack_sparrow 7,483]

^^^Thanks Leo..merry Xmas to you.

[huey 2 512]

Great to see ,     Thanks Leo

 ....it will be interesting to see the actual number of boats that get built for the first race.....15....30 or more . what a task for this year . very interseting to see

[LeoV 2,175]

thanks Tip&Shaft newsletter

Happy xmas yall.

[DFL1010 62]

Haven't seen these posted; apols if it has:

Seems decent downhill

And uphill

 

 

I note that Fig IIs are still in use for 2018. Per V&V La Solitaire Urgo will be their swan song, and twitter reports abound of fettling for this year

[LeoV 2,175]

Fettling ?

Fettling definition, the material with which the hearth of a puddling furnace is lined, usually a dolomite or refractory mixture

[huey 2 512]

Fettling the engine of a racecar.....sorting out all the components that make a race motor into a  fully Tuned race motor ....going through the options available

[LeoV 2,175]

Ah, thanks.

That foil , will it actually generate enough vertical lift I wonder. So it is waiting till I see a good video showing that I reckon....

[southerncross 3,901]

1 hour ago, LeoV said:

Ah, thanks.

That foil , will it actually generate enough vertical lift I wonder. So it is waiting till I see a good video showing that I reckon....

Not seeing anything remarkable yet.  Looks more like lateral resistance if any?

[Foolish 189]

Quote

That foil , will it actually generate enough vertical lift I wonder.

I've been questioning that myself since the first drawings came out.  I just can't see how it helps to keep the boat upright, when compared to a normal DSS board.  And watching the second video above, with the boat healing dramatically, hasn't changed my thoughts yet.

And internally, really clean except for the head bonking line channel beams running down each side.  All of this just to put the lines under the deck???   I don't like the looks of those at all.

[r.finn 256]

I doubt the sailors racing those boats will hide their feelings about the Figaro 3's drawbacks.  If there are any, I think we'll hear about them.  Too bad it won't be sooner.

 

[DFL1010 62]

This tweet:

 

Shows it semi-wicked up. Seems pretty stable, but I'll defer to experts' opinions.

 

[slug zitski 240]

Those boats race inshore...coastal.   Coastal waters are litterd with surface junk.  

Foils are good for clean water oceanic racers...the coastal guys will regret those foils 

[LeoV 2,175]

Yacht yachting test:

 

[Panoramix 1,233]

On 1/9/2018 at 5:16 PM, Foolish said:

I've been questioning that myself since the first drawings came out.  I just can't see how it helps to keep the boat upright, when compared to a normal DSS board.  And watching the second video above, with the boat healing dramatically, hasn't changed my thoughts yet.

And internally, really clean except for the head bonking line channel beams running down each side.  All of this just to put the lines under the deck???   I don't like the looks of those at all.

The DSS foils have a horizontal force component toward leeward when heeling whereas for these foils it is toward windward which should work well with apparent wind forward of the beam. Of course it helps with righting moment, it's like having a wider boat.

[Miffy 2,125]

I'm sure we will get plenty of opinions once the fleet is released to the sailors. 

If you're struggling to understand how the foils generate righting moment, think about how horizontal wings generate lift on an aircraft. Now rotate the wing surface 270°. 

[longy 457]

The foils are not to fly the hull out of the water - they are to contribute righting moment without extra weight. So the F 3 has no ballast tanks, and a lighter keel.

[southerncross 3,901]

There seems to be a lateral resistance component as well in this foil.  

I wonder if you couldn't get the same or more righting moment with DSS?  

What's the point of the foil coming out from under the deck?  In the Tweet above, most of the entire foil was in the water anyway.  That part, the arm (?), couldn't be providing anything but drag, no?

 

[Foolish 189]

I put the drawing into photoshop and came up with this.  The top drawing is the Figaro III healing in the water. The arrow show the direction of lift of the foil.  The bottom drawing shows what it would look like if they'd used a standard DSS foil.  I'm sure that I have misunderstood something but it just looks like you'd get more righting moment from the DSS foil.  I'll try to find a copy of Yachts & Yachting magazine to read their review.   I'm sure the designers know what they are doing.  I just can't figure it out.

[Miffy 2,125]

You can't measure RM by speculating the foils direction. You have to look at the aspect ratio of the lifting surface. 

The Figaro foil also provides upwind benefit of resisting leeway, also seems intuitively safer should foil impact something and shear off. 

Also mounted at the top increase the leverage.

Do this experiment with me. 

1. Take a half empty bottle of something large like water or milk. 

2. Tilt the container 30° Holding it at the bottom. Tilt the every which way. 

3. Tilt the container 30° Holding it at the middle or top. Tilt it every which way. 

 

There's a reason why mugs and large containers of water don't have handles at the center of gravity or bottom. 

[LeoV 2,175]

Nice Foolish, see the direction of the force, f3 foil is lifting more  in the direction of LCB, the Dss not, it uses almost the LCB as rotation point.

So one is lifting the boat out of the water and creating RM, the other only creating RM and flatten the boat.

[southerncross 3,901]

Foolish's illustration helps.  I get it now.  Still, I imagine it would be best to keep the top part out of the water as much as possible.

And it seems that there must be an optimum foil/heel angle past which the foil is less effective?

[Foolish 189]

That's what it looks like to me too Leo.  But in the articles they've said over and over that it is not intended to lift the boat out of the water.    But it looks like that is exactly what it will do.  I will have lots of trouble getting that Y&Y article here in Canada.  If you can find it, please scan me a copy.

[southerncross 3,901]

Foolish, I think they meant that the foil is not meant to reduce wetted surface in any way, just provide RM.

[LeoV 2,175]

It will lift it a bit, not much, to small for that. And how more the lift the more the drag.

If they only wanted to replace waterballast with foil, a DSS could do it.

So I am confused too.

Sorry the Y&Y article is  hard to get for me too.. Need  a 100 km trip for that

I rely on Tip&shaft newsletter to read news.

closer look at foil

[Varan 1,706]

On 1/9/2018 at 8:16 AM, Foolish said:

I've been questioning that myself since the first drawings came out.  I just can't see how it helps to keep the boat upright, when compared to a normal DSS board.  And watching the second video above, with the boat healing dramatically, hasn't changed my thoughts yet.

And internally, really clean except for the head bonking line channel beams running down each side.  All of this just to put the lines under the deck???   I don't like the looks of those at all.

Think handrails, if you have bigass hands like me.

[southerncross 3,901]

I get the concept now. Whether it actually works to an advantage is another story.

A lot has to do with the point of leverage, as Miffy said earlier, at the top.  Also, there is less to leverage (to push to windward) without all the water ballast weight.  

[Varan 1,706]

The big problem with DSS... Royalties.

[Miffy 2,125]

1 minute ago, Varan said:

The big problem with DSS... Royalties.

And it seems pretty shite compared to just building a light beamy boat too. 

[mad 3,710]

25 minutes ago, LeoV said:

It will lift it a bit, not much, to small for that. And how more the lift the more the drag.

If they only wanted to replace waterballast with foil, a DSS could do it.

So I am confused too.

Sorry the Y&Y article is  hard to get for me too.. Need  a 100 km trip for that

I rely on Tip&shaft newsletter to read news.

closer look at foil

That’s not a very nice looking internal kink on the foil!! Maybe it’s just the picture. 

[ctutmark 233]

2 hours ago, mad said:

That’s not a very nice looking internal kink on the foil!! Maybe it’s just the picture. 

Think it is the photo angle

Take a look at page 4 of the pdf

http://www.beneteau.com/sites/default/files/public/dossier_fb3_2.pdf

[LeoV 2,175]

Double autopilots ? But on opposite position ? Or something totally different ?

Nice find that pdf, thank Cutmark.

[staysail 310]

16 hours ago, Foolish said:

I put the drawing into photoshop and came up with this.  The top drawing is the Figaro III healing in the water. The arrow show the direction of lift of the foil.  The bottom drawing shows what it would look like if they'd used a standard DSS foil.  I'm sure that I have misunderstood something but it just looks like you'd get more righting moment from the DSS foil.  I'll try to find a copy of Yachts & Yachting magazine to read their review.   I'm sure the designers know what they are doing.  I just can't figure it out.

 

 

Taking your diagrams and resolving the foil forces you show on them into vertical and horizontal components what we see is that the Figaro 3 foil and the DSS both give similar vertical up components and at a similar distance out from the boat hull centre of buoyancy so the righting moment from this vertical component looks similar in each case. The inward component from the Figaro 3 design acts on the foil well below the water line, actually below the bottom of the hull, so depending on the vertical position of the centre of lateral resistance this could actually subtract from the righting moment. The DSS style gives a horizontal component which is much smaller and which acts outwards and at a much shallower depth, so this component will have hardly any effect on righting moment. My conclusion is that for the arrangements you show in your diagrams:_
1) the DSS style will give more righting moment
2) both will give an approximately equal amount of vertical lift which reduces wetted area of the hull
3) the Figaro 3 style will impart an inward a force which will oppose leeway
4) the DSS foil results in an outward force component which may slightly increase leeway
If one considers the effect of angle of heel, as the boat heels more the Figaro 3 style gives more vertical lift and less side force, meaning that as the boat heels more its righting moment may increase, but this depends on whether the moment arm (distance from the centre of buoyancy to the line of action of the foil force) reduces enough to cancel out the effect of the increased vertical component. With the DSS design the vertical lift will reduce and the horizontal component increases but the righting moment will change very little because the contribution to righting moment from the horizontal component increases as that from the vertical component decreases.
To sum up it does seem to be quite complicated and dependant on the characteristics of the hull and other appendages which determine locations of centre of buoyancy, centre of lateral resistance etc. all of which change with angle of heel, and with speed dependent lift forces which act both on the hull and on the foil.
It will indeed be very interesting to see how this Figaro 3 actually performs in racing especially when up against the Figaro 2. One interesting thing to have come out of the Mini racing last year was that the foiling boats did not do as well as expected and some people I have talked with about this feel that the Mini is simply too small in relation to average wave sizes to enable the boat to sail with the foils well aligned with the water flow across them for a large enough fraction of the time. In perfect conditions for them the foiling boats are very fast but perfect conditions for a mini to do this are rare! This is not the case with the Imocas where on balance it is becoming a definite advantage to have a foil. The Figaro is significantly bigger than a mini but nowhere as big as an Imoca so I think it will really be interesting to see how this one goes in actual races.

[ctutmark 233]

1 hour ago, staysail said:

 

Taking your diagrams and resolving the foil forces you show on them into vertical and horizontal components what we see is that the Figaro 3 foil and the DSS both give similar vertical up components and at a similar distance out from the boat hull centre of buoyancy so the righting moment from this vertical component looks similar in each case. The inward component from the Figaro 3 design acts on the foil well below the water line, actually below the bottom of the hull, so depending on the vertical position of the centre of lateral resistance this could actually subtract from the righting moment. The DSS style gives a horizontal component which is much smaller and which acts outwards and at a much shallower depth, so this component will have hardly any effect on righting moment. My conclusion is that for the arrangements you show in your diagrams:_
1) the DSS style will give more righting moment
2) both will give an approximately equal amount of vertical lift which reduces wetted area of the hull
3) the Figaro 3 style will impart an inward a force which will oppose leeway
4) the DSS foil results in an outward force component which may slightly increase leeway
If one considers the effect of angle of heel, as the boat heels more the Figaro 3 style gives more vertical lift and less side force, meaning that as the boat heels more its righting moment may increase, but this depends on whether the moment arm (distance from the centre of buoyancy to the line of action of the foil force) reduces enough to cancel out the effect of the increased vertical component. With the DSS design the vertical lift will reduce and the horizontal component increases but the righting moment will change very little because the contribution to righting moment from the horizontal component increases as that from the vertical component decreases.
To sum up it does seem to be quite complicated and dependant on the characteristics of the hull and other appendages which determine locations of centre of buoyancy, centre of lateral resistance etc. all of which change with angle of heel, and with speed dependent lift forces which act both on the hull and on the foil.
It will indeed be very interesting to see how this Figaro 3 actually performs in racing especially when up against the Figaro 2. One interesting thing to have come out of the Mini racing last year was that the foiling boats did not do as well as expected and some people I have talked with about this feel that the Mini is simply too small in relation to average wave sizes to enable the boat to sail with the foils well aligned with the water flow across them for a large enough fraction of the time. In perfect conditions for them the foiling boats are very fast but perfect conditions for a mini to do this are rare! This is not the case with the Imocas where on balance it is becoming a definite advantage to have a foil. The Figaro is significantly bigger than a mini but nowhere as big as an Imoca so I think it will really be interesting to see how this one goes in actual races.

The Figaro 3 foil also adjusts angle of attack, the inboard bearing of the foil moves fore and aft in the case. The brochure pdf shows the foil control system

[rogerfal 394]

Different type of sailing too - Figaro % wise will spend more time sailing up-wind compared to the IMOCA.

An interesting and exciting development for me as a spectator.

[mad 3,710]

When do they start sailing them properly?

[staysail 310]

On 1/13/2018 at 11:19 PM, mad said:

When do they start sailing them properly?

Couldn't find anything much about this year yet except for this calendar, on the Classe Figaro website. Not too easy to read or to follow though.

[LeoV 2,175]

Fig 3 delivery end of 2018.

 

Seahorse will have a write up:

A Play of Forces

Louis Vercauter, sailing instructor and student at the Antwerp Maritime Academy, joined us for sea trials to investigate the benefits of foils on a one-design yacht. While foils typically are used to lift the hull above the water, it quickly became clear that we were not dealing with a flying boat.

The faster we sailed, the more stable was the boat.

http://emag.nauticexpo.com/article-long/video-tested-figaro-iii-new-way-foil/

 

 

[Foolish 189]

From the article you quote: "The foils also prevent drift.”   Yes, that's correct. The vertical portion of the foil acts as a dagger board.   When I interviewed IMOCA 60 designer Merfyn Owen in my singlehanded book about those boats he described dagger boards as twisting the bow of the boat into the wind, so that it shoots through the water straight like a dart, rather than crabbing sideways as most boats function.  This makes me wonder if the new Figaro IIIs have reduced weather helm?  Dagger boards can be used to eliminate weather helm.

"The lift of the foil reduces pitch and reduces wetted surface."  That is also correct.  When I interviewed Hugh Welbourn about his DSS he said that a major benefit of the foil was in increasing stability: "It makes the boat feel 10 - 15 feet longer overall."  And reducing wetted surface comes from lifting the boat just a few inches higher in the water.

[LeoV 2,175]

Yep, its a daggerboard/stabilizer combifoil.

It solves one problems with Fig2, nosediving under spi and other wish was use of asymetric spi.

I do not think it will reduce leeway much, need quite a lot of AOA on the foil, like tested on Red Fox and minis. Better make the boat quicker.

Happy it reduces wetted area a smitten, means I am not stupid thinking it would, lol.

Would be funny if they find a way to sail very deep with two foils working, I bet they are to short for that, but who knows.

[longy 457]

  With a sprit, I don't think they can sail deep enuff to get both foils really working together to get out of water. Maybe in really big breeze with a runner? But with sail limitations they won't carry that sail.

[Presuming Ed 188]

Other advantage of the 45 degree foil is that as the boat heels, righting moment increases relative to horizontal lift. A positive feedback loop. 

[LeoV 2,175]

Not sure this one was posted already;

 

[LeoV 2,175]

6 degrees of movement of the foil;

 

[southerncross 3,901]

Good use of foils

The Figaro 3 and its astonishing foils have not finished making much ink. Small update with Vincent Lauriot Prévost, the architect, who gives us some tracks on the use of these funny appendages.

Posted on: 25/01/2018 - 15:30

by Loïc Madeline

Voilesetvoiliers.com: It seems that these foils only work from a certain speed and therefore they are only a brake in the light of day. Is it wrong? 
Vincent Lauriot Prevost:What are the hydrodynamic brakes on a sailing boat? There is the hull, the keel, the foils and the rudders. Upwind, the drag is all the more important as the boat drifts and we sail in crab. What we want is to load the asymmetrical profile of the foil to reduce the angle of drift and unload keel and hull. When we are not in high speeds, especially upwind - boats of this type are regularly between 5 and 7 knots - we want to load the foil to drift less. On the other hand, in the bearing gait, there is a desire to reduce the rake angle to the maximum to reduce the drag, the anti-drift force in this case being reduced or zero. As soon as we sail at higher speeds where we need a righting torque, the foil, inclined at 45 degrees with the heel, generates both a horizontal anti-drift force and a vertical force that tends to relieve the boat and increase the righting torque. This concept of foils is not necessarily adapted to larger and faster boats: their performance is a function of the anti-drift force generated by the sail plan of the boat and it is limited to the maximum recovery torque. Once one has 100% of the anti-drift force on the foil, the vertical force caps the value of the vertical component. This explains why we have a very balanced boat with a very neutral bar. In these conditions saffron does not take its share of anti-drifting force to correct the balance and leaves to the foil the major part of this anti-drifting force.

Voilesetvoiliers.com: That is to say? 
VLP: The asymmetrical profile that takes the drifting force will give the right moment of recovery and lighten the boat.The more this lateral force increases, the more the foil is loaded and the foil grows vertically as well. This phenomenon had already been observed on ORMA trimarans with foils inclined at 45 degrees. The more one loaded the central drift by turning the shutter, the more the float was in the water. As soon as we put the shutter in the axis, we transferred the load on the foil and the float lifted. What we are trying to do with this type of foil is not to fly completely but to equip the boat with an effective foil to take the anti-drift component when it is needed and beneficial for the power and the relief.

Voilesetvoiliers.com: How to evaluate the expected gain? 
VLP: The Figaro 3 weighs 200 kilos less than the Figaro 2, equal torque without the foils, we gain 250 kilos of ballast for the same power as the Figaro 2 ballast, and to 14 knots of speed we regain between 400 and 500 kilos of vertical thrust. We will sail 800 kilos lighter at 14 knots, 30% lighter and 15% steeper. This type of foil is a real turbo that is not there to look pretty. But the desire for versatility and the specifications of the class will not make a flying boat itself.

Voilesetvoiliers.com: The keel of Figaro 3 has a very short rope, without the foil it would skid on the exit of transfer? 
VLP:That's right, the goal is that when you do not use the foil for its power, you use it for something else. This foil allows us to have a keel of smaller surface, more elongation and less drag, and balance to the bar as neutral as possible so that saffron does not contribute to antiderive. Designers of some of the old America's Cup boats, including the AC5s, which were limited in keel surface, had chosen to design fiery boats to use large, very deep, very efficient, large-area rudder blades. eight or ten degrees of angle permanently in order to relay the lack of effectiveness of the keel. This is not what we are looking for.

Voilesetvoiliers.com: Did you  try the foils in strong winds? 
VLP:I had the chance to test it with Yoann (Richomme) and Adrien (Hardy) with 23-25 knots of wind at Sables-d'Olonne in configuration one edge without foil and on the other edge with foil. We had simply removed the foil and plugged the well with adhesive. The difference in behavior was rather striking. For example, we were under spinnaker and it was very difficult to attack without foil. We went to the pile three or four times and it was normal: we were stitched. With the foil, the presence of it allowed us to go up to 130-135 degrees of wind under spinnaker, we went straight and we could tighten the wind without apprehension. Conclusion of the day: the boat with foil, thanks to its stability of road and the reduction of the heeling angle, tolerated a bigger spinnaker and tighter angles.

Voilesetvoiliers.com: The instructions for this new boat will be acquired after one season? Do you have any advice? 
VLP: We can not yet say exactly what is going to be the best in terms of tuning, but we can say the routes to which we must look. It will be very interesting to be able to adjust the rake of the foil with a hoist directly from the cockpit, there will be plenty of configurations to test. This is what interests a browser like Loïck Peyron, for example, who says that with his experience, he will quickly be at the level. I think there will be a fairly rigorous learning phase. Before, it was ballast or not ballast and mat quest. There, there will be the foil with the ability to deploy it more or less and to angulate it more or less.

Voilesetvoiliers.com: Can the foils be used without being deployed? 
VLP:In near-wind speeds, depending on the impact they will have with the ship's wave, they may be more efficient half way out to have the best angle of incidence relative to the flow. real and have a better efficiency, I'm not sure we only consider the on / off mode. I think there may be situations where it's going to be playing on the balance at the bar and its performance depending on the rake range. I think we'll finish on a rake around -3 ° + 7 °, or -2 ° + 8 °. The idea is to leave a big game to prevent optimization of the adjustment stops.

http://www.voilesetvoiliers.com/course-regate/du-bon-usage-des-foils/

[southerncross 3,901]

Naval architecture

10 years before Figaro-Bénéteau 3, Jean-Marie Finot evoked the foil in a monohull

Thursday 25 January 2018 - Christophe Guigueno

Le Figaro-Bénteau 3, successor to the Lombard plans (96 units from 2003 to 2018) and Finot-Berret (140 units from 1990 to 2002) will participate in its first official races in 2019. What is its particularity? Have side foils to increase the recovery torque. New?

During the call for tenders launched by the Figaro-Bénéteau Class to succeed the Lombard plan whose lines were inspired by the time of Catherine Chabaud's 60-foot Open, 3 designs were selected. All three had lateral foils, this time inspired by the foils of IMOCA , but in the inverted position ( foil tip downwards). If the cabinet VPLP won, we also found Mer Forte Port-La-Forêt and Groupe Finot who had already mentioned this type of foil .

The Finot Group, created by Jean-Marie Finot and Pascal Conq, did not win the tender. However, the concept of foil on a monohull was not unknown architects and Jean-Marie Finot in particular since in 2008, 10 years before the first edges of Figaro-Bénéteau 3, the architect presented his reflections on the foils . In his article, he returned to the definition of a foil "which, with a certain incidence, creates, at right angles to its shape, a lift at the price of a certain drag" .

Jean-Marie Finot adds that one can "use the planes to support the boat" as he himself tested on the Objectif 100 foiler that was to try to pass the 100km / h sail, propelled by a tilting rigid wing. "In general these carrying planes called foils are used to support the boat [or] to oppose the thrust of the wind [and] therefore to serve as a drift."  

Supported, it features a monohull that benefits from the " leeward thrust" of the foil downwind (downward inclined) to increase the straightening cut of a monohull. A concept that is born 10 years later on a series race monohull.

Sources: 
  The article on the foils of Jean-Marie Finot: www.finot.com/ecrits/ecritgroupe/foils/foils_jmf.html 
  The Figaro-Bénéteau 3 plans by François Chevalier: http: //chevaliertaglang.blogspot. en / 2017/01 / the-figaro-single-handed-jubilee-1966.html 

http://www.seasailsurf.fr/9957-10-ans-avant-le-Figaro-Beneteau-3-Jean-Marie?utm_source=dlvr.it&utm_medium=twitter&lang=fr

[LeoV 2,175]

2 hours ago, southerncross said:

Conclusion of the day: the boat with foil, thanks to its stability of road and the reduction of the heeling angle, tolerated a bigger spinnaker and tighter angles.

NIce..

Finot stuff,

funny, they must have felt gutted to be beaten by a design out of their experiment drawer.

[Francis Vaughan 636]

Very interesting. The set of tuning parameters that have significant influence is clearly going to be bigger then ever before. I can just smell a system filled with local maxima, and a lot of work ahead to map the possibilities. This is going to be interesting to watch. I really wish I could be part of it.

[LeoV 2,175]

More info about the build organisation and how the financial stuff works;

Tip&shaft is the source, translate button available at the page...

https://mailchi.mp/tipandshaft.com/tip-shaft-99-o-en-est-le-figaro-3-julien-villion-jaime-tout-dans-la-voile?e=35fa5dddd3

IN short for lazy persons, 155 K bare boat, boats will be released on the same date late 2018, 50 boats planned, first boats go to sailors to prevent investors buying them up and then leasing them out.

[Foolish 189]

I'm surprised that they are in full production already.  I'd have thought they would have had months of prototype testing by racing skippers and publicly available reports prior to full production.  But it seems like they are moving full steam ahead based on the design drawings only.  I still have lots of questions about the design, right now the head bonkers is my largest concern.

[razcaillou 28]

On 05/02/2018 at 7:15 PM, Foolish said:

I'm surprised that they are in full production already.  I'd have thought they would have had months of prototype testing by racing skippers and publicly available reports prior to full production.  But it seems like they are moving full steam ahead based on the design drawings only.  I still have lots of questions about the design, right now the head bonkers is my largest concern

The prototype have been heavily  tested by several figaro sailors for roughly 6 month now , I guess most  the major issues  that require alteration to the manufacturing tools or structure of the boat have been identified and solved by now. Other minor quirks can be ironed out later.

 We are talking about the Beneteau group here, they have an R&D and industrial firepower that very few other boatyard have.

[razcaillou 28]

Latest video from Beneteau.

Quite not Corentin Douget with everything up in 45kts level but still looks good to me.

 

[LeoV 2,175]

Nice, but not that bobstay fitting....

[mario147 13]

Don't you think it lacks rhumb stabilty? It looks like a snake, the bow moving away at every wave? He has to be 100% concentrated on the tiller. See specially last part of the video.

[LeoV 2,175]

NAh, he is just playing, you now solo sailors can not steer, hence the autopilot LOL