Presuming Ed

Is this the Figaro III?

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Not sure vplp know what half arsed means... and besides the foil was only ever designed to replicate the stability of the water ballast of the old boats without adding displacement. Looks like an awesome boat and I'd love to race one offshore one day, or even short handed coastal races

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10 hours ago, Last Post said:

I have watched shit-loads of videos/youtube/vimeo etc of this thing now and its more likely the effect of the foil drag on the steering of the boat that he's correcting for.

Looks like a half arsed rushed attempt to be first on the market with the latest fad to me. Not truly foiling either, more an aid to stability.

I am sure they will have pre-sold a bunch of these to their dealer network and a few B dealers will be sweating bullets to move them on.

They have no dealer network,  you can only buy one if you commit to La Solitaire,  and are an already committed Class member.

They were never aiming to be fully foiling.

Considering that that two of your three paragraphs are complete bullocks, I am going to take the first one as being the same....

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2 hours ago, JL92S said:

Unless you walk into Ancasta they'll sell one...

IMG_0064.thumb.JPG.3958d609ae47f257f28bdd0d987b6889.JPG

I was not clear, obviously,  although boats are sold through brokers you still need to meet the Class requirements if you want one of the first 50 boats.  Last Post was implying, that having watched the videos, nobody wants one. That sort of spouting is just pathetic and annoys me, should have realised it is the Internet and ignored it....

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4 hours ago, Potter said:

I was not clear, obviously,  although boats are sold through brokers you still need to meet the Class requirements if you want one of the first 50 boats.  Last Post was implying, that having watched the videos, nobody wants one. That sort of spouting is just pathetic and annoys me, should have realised it is the Internet and ignored it....

Your implication, like the rest of your posts , comes straight out of your arse. I did not imply that nobody wants one, I am sure they will sell plenty. After all there,  are shit loads of gullible sailors out there and, as you say, if you want to do the Figaro, you have to have one, regardless of how it handles.

What I intended to convey is that they handle poorly, the foil throws the boat all over the shop and they are hard to steer with a lot of over-correction necessary to keep them on track. I repeat, its a half arsed, rushed attempt to get in first with new tech.

Beneteau historically force stock on to their world wide dealers, regardless of whether the dealer want the boats or not. That's been going on for decades. That artificially ramps up sales figures, even if the dealers take a reaming to clear their stock boats. The Juan K designed First 30 was a classic case - shit boats, dealers everywhere had to dump them and they had one of the shortest production runs in B history. 

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The boat is certainly not tracking very straight in the video. When the foil is an obvious source of off-centre drag and the boat is new I think it's reasonable to wonder if this is a real handling problem or if the guy helming it was just having fun/showing off by playing the rudder. I reckon I would need to sail one mayself to know which is right.

If I were Beneteau I wouldn't choose to show off this particular video as it raises this question about the boat. Fast and steady would have been far more impressive.

Have you actually sailed one Potter?
Is Dee going to do the Solitaire in one?

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10 hours ago, Last Post said:

Your implication, like the rest of your posts , comes straight out of your arse. I did not imply that nobody wants one, I am sure they will sell plenty. After all there,  are shit loads of gullible sailors out there and, as you say, if you want to do the Figaro, you have to have one, regardless of how it handles.

What I intended to convey is that they handle poorly, the foil throws the boat all over the shop and they are hard to steer with a lot of over-correction necessary to keep them on track. I repeat, its a half arsed, rushed attempt to get in first with new tech.

Beneteau historically force stock on to their world wide dealers, regardless of whether the dealer want the boats or not. That's been going on for decades. That artificially ramps up sales figures, even if the dealers take a reaming to clear their stock boats. The Juan K designed First 30 was a classic case - shit boats, dealers everywhere had to dump them and they had one of the shortest production runs in B history. 

Okay, well lets agree to disagree, I have not sailed the boat neither have I watched a lot of video. I have, however, spoken to some of the sailors that were involved in the testing. Beneteau may have pushed stock on their dealers, and feel free to correct me, but they did not do this with the Figaro 2. There are restrictions on who can buy the new boat, so that there are enough for the Class events, there are also restrictions on the number you can buy (in order to stop high charter prices).

The driver in the video above is playing for affect, as pointed out by Staysail.  All boats with daggerboards or foils,  track differently at different wind angles, I do not know of a single one that tracks perfectly on every point of sail for every board configuration. Most IMOCA 60s with too much board down on a reach are a beast to control.

I am not bothered that you think most of my posts come out of my arse, feel free to put me on ignore, surely that would only add to your enjoyment of this forum. However, I don't right off new products, that show some interesting innovation without (at least) talking to people with first hand experience, or getting that experience myself. 

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18 hours ago, Last Post said:

I repeat, its a half arsed, rushed attempt to get in first with new tech.

Last putting aside experimentals such as 4 generations of  Hydroptère's going back to the 90's etc, then VPLP's foil work started in 2010 with the AC72's for AC34, followed up in 2013 for the new generation IMOCA 60's and even later that same year having a crack at putting foils on a 100' (Comanche, see pic below), albeit it didn't eventuate. 

That represents the FIG3 having around eight (8) odd years of detailed design development behind it already in this department and from a design house I think that is unbeaten in the Route du Rhum for nearly 30 years.

With that in mind I'm not sure I would call this a "half arsed rushed attempt to get in first with new tech".

New3_5.jpg

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Its definitely new tech for the mass market that Bene operates in. They don't launch any new design with the expectation that they're not going to sell in volume to a broad market.

They rushed to the market to be the first small production boat from Juan K with his fat and slow First 30 too, and look where they got with that shitter.

With due respect for all of VPLPs experience and research with foils, it hasn't been in boats anywhere near this small and the impact of the foils on the boat  handling looks to be greatly increased at this scale. 

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39 minutes ago, Last Post said:

Its definitely new tech for the mass market that Bene operates in. They don't launch any new design with the expectation that they're not going to sell in volume to a broad market.

The Fig is not mass market in terms of Beneteau's market... never has been. The business reality is they are in effect subsidising this class in terms of long term goals...today's new tech is tomorrow's build techniques as well as some market expectations.

They rushed to the market to be the first small production boat from Juan K with his fat and slow First 30 too, and look where they got with that shitter.

And so?  Absolutely nothing in common with the Fig 3 other than a boat around the same size. However I agree, a dog that fell over if someone passed wind.

With due respect for all of VPLPs experience and research with foils, it hasn't been in boats anywhere near this small and the impact of the foils on the boat  handling looks to be greatly increased at this scale. 

No experience in foiling  boats this small? Let's start with VPLP's Arkema a foiling 6.5 Mini, a design 2 years old, built and up and sailing long ago.

LP.. a man should know when to quit..your drowning.

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2 hours ago, Last Post said:

They rushed to the market to be the first small production boat from Juan K with his fat and slow First 30 too, and look where they got with that shitter.

Yes that boat was a dog but to be fair to Juan K he has been quite vocal about the production boat being produced much heavier and softer than what he intended.

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Yep, Bene does not make money with their Figaro built program.

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On 3/6/2018 at 10:32 PM, southerncross said:

No idea what he's saying.

He likes the boat because it feels lighter than the figaro 2. Tuning of the foil right will be important.

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5 minutes ago, Panoramix said:

He likes the boat because it feels lighter than the figaro 2. Tuning of the foil right will be important.

I’ll happily takes Peyrons view on the new boat, anybody want to disagree with him?

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I put the drawing into photoshop and came up with this.  The top drawing is the Figaro III healing in the water. The arrow show the direction of lift of the foil.  The bottom drawing shows what it would look like if they'd used a standard DSS foil.  I'm sure that I have misunderstood something but it just looks like you'd get more righting moment from the DSS foil.  I'll try to find a copy of Yachts & Yachting magazine to read their review.   I'm sure the designers know what they are doing.  I just can't figure it out.

Figaro III and DSS.jpg

Bringing this back up I think that perhaps the efficiency of the mustache foil relies on the point of leverage for the foil being at the sharp curve (bend) of the structure; in other words all of the lift from the immersed portion of the mustache foil pushes up on the outermost upper flat part of that foil, the bend as if it were, not uniformly along the entire structure.

Surely, if the flat upper part of the mustache foil were longer it would generate more lift than a foil with a shorter flat upper part if the size the foils under the water were the same on both. It’s just a longer lever, which leads me to think that the lifting force of the immersed part of the foil is transmitted to the flat upper part at the bend because it can’t be transmitted at any other point.

Does that make any sense? 

 

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^ The center of lift is positioned relative to the submerged foil surface, regardless of how circuitous the connection to the boat is. The lift generated by the foil needs to be divided into two vectors - one that is parallel to a line drawn thru the foil’s center of lift (CLf) and the hull’s center of buoyancy (CB), and one perpendicular to that line. The righting is calculated by multiplying the second vector  (perpendicular to the line) by the distance along that line that separates the CLf from the CB - this distance is the moment arm.

To calculate the vertical lift (which unloads the hull), you project both vectors on a vertical plane (perpendicular to the water surface) and add them.

To calculate the leeway resistance, you project both vectors on a horizontal plane and add them.

As vertical lift is developed, the boat partially rises out of the water, which causes the CofB of the part of the hull that is still submerged to move a bit, but on a monohull that’s small enough to disregard for the purposes of this discussion.

The foil on the new Figaro is (to me) very clever for a couple of reasons:

1) It not only produces righting moment - it reduces leeway

2) The angled bottom section will reduce impact loads (like a V bottom hull) when you sail off the back of a wave

3) There is leeway coupling, which allows the boat to side slip both as it heels too far (the angles change) and when it is going really fast (the upper section of the foil which does most of the leeway work comes out of the water as the boat rises), which should make it very forgiving and not ‘nervous’. 

Plus structurally, is goes thru the hull near the deck to hull joint, so you basically have an I-beam right there instead of a large panel of hull area that needs to be massively reinforced.

So it’s a very cool, innovative design that does a lot of different things. 

 

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^ The center of lift is positioned relative to the submerged foil surface, regardless of how circuitous the connection to the boat is. The lift generated by the foil needs to be divided into two vectors - one that is parallel to a line drawn thru the foil’s center of lift (CLf) and the hull’s center of buoyancy (CB), and one perpendicular to that line. The righting is calculated by multiplying the second vector  (perpendicular to the line) by the distance along that line that separates the CLf from the CB - this distance is the moment arm.

To calculate the vertical lift (which unloads the hull), you project both vectors on a vertical plane (perpendicular to the water surface) and add them.

To calculate the leeway resistance, you project both vectors on a horizontal plane and add them.

As vertical lift is developed, the boat partially rises out of the water, which causes the CofB of the part of the hull that is still submerged to move a bit, but on a monohull that’s small enough to disregard for the purposes of this discussion.

The foil on the new Figaro is (to me) very clever for a couple of reasons:

1) It not only produces righting moment - it reduces leeway

2) The angled bottom section will reduce impact loads (like a V bottom hull) when you sail off the back of a wave

3) There is leeway coupling, which allows the boat to side slip both as it heels too far (the angles change) and when it is going really fast (the upper section of the foil which does most of the leeway work comes out of the water as the boat rises), which should make it very forgiving and not ‘nervous’. 

Plus structurally, is goes thru the hull near the deck to hull joint, so you basically have an I-beam right there instead of a large panel of hull area that needs to be massively reinforced.

So it’s a very cool, innovative design that does a lot of different things. 

 

Thanks for the more informed explanation.

The observation about the I beam athwartships is something I had not considered. It's probably sort of like a part of a ring frame, structurally.

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Yep, I see it as the curved foils used before on Open 60's just placed outside the hull.

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The new Yachting World magazine has a review this month.  Several different reviewers gave it good marks.  I'm still waiting before I give an opinion.  Lots on the boat that I am questioning.

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And don’t forget that the leeway resistance from the foil allowed them to reduce the area of the keel a lot which should reduce drag.

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It might be tricky to adapt for some. The faster you go, the more righting moment you get. For instance if you are sailing upwind, a puff is coming, if you decide to head up a bit to depower a bit you loose speed and righting moment, so you end with too much heel anyway...

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On 26/03/2018 at 5:21 AM, Panoramix said:

It might be tricky to adapt for some. The faster you go, the more righting moment you get. For instance if you are sailing upwind, a puff is coming, if you decide to head up a bit to depower a bit you loose speed and righting moment, so you end with too much heel anyway...

Yeah so you press it hard, ease the main, get maximum speed and then pinch.  Probably picking a flat spot to pinch in. 

Regardless of foils, pinching before a gust in a modern boat is slow 

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The faster you go, the more righting moment you get. For instance if you are sailing upwind, a puff is coming, if you decide to head up a bit to depower a bit you loose speed and righting moment, so you end with too much heel anyway...

 

Keep in mind that the foils perform two distinct functions.  First is the righting moment, as you described. But the second is to replace traditional dagger boards. 

Dagger boards (like those on the IMOCA 60s) have the effect of twisting the boat into the wind. So you no longer crab sideways like a traditional sailboat, but sail straight through the water "like a dart".  For my singlehanded tips book I interviewed Merfyn Owen (Owen Clark Designs) about this he explained that the skipper does not just point the boat higher and higher.  But rather they ease the jib slightly to increase speed.  

The best way to understand this is to draw a jib alone. On a second sheet of paper, draw the hull: Lay the hull on top of the jib, with the meeting point at the bow. Put a tack through both sheets of paper at the bow. Now, imagine that the daggerboard has been dropped. The hull points up farther, (swing the hull drawing counter-clockwise) but the jib stays in the same position. It can be seen that the jib sheet can be eased for the new position of the hull.

So we have two effects from the daggerboard: reduced hull drag through the water and eased sheets for a faster point of sail. “Now you’re smokin!” I asked if the skipper could not simply tighten the sheets and point even higher. Merfyn replied that this would quickly lead to the inefficiencies of pinching. The boats were designed to be fastest at the optimum upwind point of sail, and not to be pinched beyond that. “It’s strictly a VMG [velocity made good] thing.”

The better way to depower these boats is to twist off the top of the sails.  With the huge square top mainsail easing the main sheet even a tiny amount will shed a huge amount of wind at the top. 

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I hadn't thought about this. I think that it will be even harder than with the Figaro 2 for rookies to be fast.

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Pano, No agree, the symmetrical spi was the hardest bit to learn, now with an Assym, it could be easier.

Fooly, thats why the travellers are a big thing in Open Class. The setup is impressive.

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On 30/03/2018 at 6:48 AM, Panoramix said:

I hadn't thought about this. I think that it will be even harder than with the Figaro 2 for rookies to be fast.

 In any OD fleet it’s always hard for rookies to be fast.  Initially you have a big gap between the early guys in the know and the back markers.  Over time the tips and tricks filter down the fleet and the gap gets narrower, but it’s the old guard who find the niche tricks by virtue of time in the boat.

Looks like they already realised you extend the wings and leave ‘em there.  

I always find the idea of “symmetrical kites are harder” funny.   With a sym, you can pull in the tweakers,  gybe the main, and gybe the pole in a relatively relaxed fashion.  With a asym, you have to jam the boat hard through the gybe, while co-ordinating your lazy and active sheets, runners, and your main.  I think doing all that with your tiller between your legs will be interesting.   But then the 650 and class 40 guys do it so I’m sure it’s not too much of a mission.  Cue Autohelm I guess

I think the FIII will end up being sailed like a dinghy.  Driving it hard on the helm to keep it at maximum speed 

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Did not say gybing, driving hard is what I did mean. Gybing an assy on a mini it was easy, an a Class 40 a lot tougher, so I think a Fig will be in between.

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  Wonder whats happening here . Its the start of the season , but surely there must be news,   ... as everyone sailing would be milling around with the old boats..  will there be a mixed fleet to cater for sailors with out the budget to keep there forward progress in shorthanded racing ...blood the new people...                              sorry if question answered before

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29 minutes ago, Presuming Ed said:

All boats get delivered at the same time at the end of this year.

Thanks for the info, do you know how many? 

Edit: 50 of them for the first batch, with the order based on a random Pick done during the last Salon nautique :

https://www.google.fr/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=http://sport24.lefigaro.fr/voile/la-solitaire/Fil-Info/figaro-3-les-50-premiers-exemplaires-livres-debut-2019-887314&ved=0ahUKEwjn1P_BqNDaAhXEXhQKHagLCKcQqQIIKCgAMAE&usg=AOvVaw3-lL2zP998p0WiLh8IqHVi

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On 4/23/2018 at 4:14 AM, Presuming Ed said:

All boats get delivered at the same time at the end of this year.

A Figaro III was just delivered in Los Angeles.  Being prepped for Pac Cup 2018.  Should be sailing in a few days.  Photos prove it.  Sounds like bad intel above.

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19 hours ago, Roleur said:

A Figaro III was just delivered in Los Angeles.  Being prepped for Pac Cup 2018.  Should be sailing in a few days.  Photos prove it.  Sounds like bad intel above.

I would love to see a pic of that...I had also heard and it had been reported by journos that they will all be delivered at the same time. Only thing I can think of is that the solitaire fleet all get theirs at the same time. Beneteau were hoping this boat would appeal to a wider audience than the figaro II so maybe this is a sign of that. If what you say is true of course...

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Naos yachts, they must have a good contact at Beneteau ...
As winning the Fig is big, they must have thought about how to stop sailors training on this one. Best solution, hide it in marina del rey :)

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Note the destination port and the palm trees in the background.

Ports.jpg

FigIII.jpg

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https://pacificcup.org/18/entry/naos-yachts

The PacCup entry for the boat.  I wonder what the handicap rating is?

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On 5/11/2018 at 3:39 PM, Roleur said:

 

 

FigIII.jpg

Boat is currently at The Boatyard, Marina Del Rey, Ca. I'll grab some pics next time I swing by.  

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Delayed delivery reserve system only applies to Figaro class members. The original idea was it'll take until end of 2018 for the fleet to reach 50 anyway - perhaps this was an opportunity for Beneteau to get some PR? It'll probably be very competitive, and would be a massive marketing success if it does well ahead of its 2019 general availability. 

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wow, are they keeping people away from it or is it available to go take a look?

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10 hours ago, Parma said:

wow, are they keeping people away from it or is it available to go take a look?

Don’t know, but it went sailing yesterday. Charlie is a Bene dealer and he is posting a ton of photos of the boat, so I can’t imagine they would turn people away from looking. 

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On 5/20/2018 at 1:51 AM, LeoV said:

Okay so I'm looking at that shot and on the keel I see 3 bolts and what appears to be a sort of male "head" that I'm guessing fits into a female mould somehow. It's the structure of the female mould that intrigues me: Can anybody shed any light on that structural arrangement?

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2 hours ago, Parma said:

Okay so I'm looking at that shot and on the keel I see 3 bolts and what appears to be a sort of male "head" that I'm guessing fits into a female mould somehow. It's the structure of the female mould that intrigues me: Can anybody shed any light on that structural arrangement?

Slot fitting ensures that with such a narrow keel, lateral forces on 3 bolts in the same plane doesn't cyclically fatigue the hull/keel joint.

123.jpg

345.jpg

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1 hour ago, Miffy said:

Slot fitting ensures that with such a narrow keel, lateral forces on 3 bolts in the same plane doesn't cyclically fatigue the hull/keel joint.

 

It's like a giant Tuttle box from a windsurfer - very clever.

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Polar probably posted on page 1 2 or 3 of this discussion, IIRC :)

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I see in the Pac Cup they've got the 33 foot long Figaro 3 racing in the division with 68 and 70 foot boats.   They're not looking for too much, are they. 

Boat Name Boat Type Skipper    
Rage Wylie 70 (custom) David Raney    
Westerly  Santa Cruz 70  Stuart Dahlgren    
Runaway Andrews 70 Hector Velarde    
A Fond Le Girafon* Beneteau F3 Charles Devanneaux    
Blue Riptide 41 Michael Schoendorf    
Pyewacket Andrews 68 Roy Disney    
Prospector Mills 68

Shelter Isl TrnsAtlant Prtnrs

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Possibly the intent of the foils was not properly explained to the rating committee. They reduce lead, they will not 'fly' the boat above the water.

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On 6/15/2018 at 10:49 AM, Foolish said:

I see in the Pac Cup they've got the 33 foot long Figaro 3 racing in the division with 68 and 70 foot boats.   They're not looking for too much, are they. 

Boat Name Boat Type Skipper    
Rage Wylie 70 (custom) David Raney    
Westerly  Santa Cruz 70  Stuart Dahlgren    
Runaway Andrews 70 Hector Velarde    
A Fond Le Girafon* Beneteau F3 Charles Devanneaux    
Blue Riptide 41 Michael Schoendorf    
Pyewacket Andrews 68 Roy Disney    
Prospector Mills 68

Shelter Isl TrnsAtlant Prtnrs

Those 70s are big, but also decades old. It's really hard to know what conditions would favor which boats. I guess the F3 will have trouble keeping up for the duration, but I really don't know. Seems like the Riptide 41 is a more apt comparison to the F3.

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Seahorse article talking an irc optomized figaro 3 for general consumption....if it didnt have foils that'd be something. Ive heard the 3200 ready to be retired...this seems too hard edged for that slot but given popularity of 1010 style boats not far off.....there is nothing interesting in the states (excpting 3200) for one of the sectors of sailing seeing good participation - DH.

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