Presuming Ed

Is this the Figaro III?

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On 5/7/2019 at 10:14 PM, mad said:

I hope you’ve got time to answer a load of questions!  So here’s mine, have you sailed the earlier Figaro? If so any comments on performance, handling etc?

Hi mad. 

I didn't spend a lot of time with the Figaro 2 so I can't really compare with my own experience. Word on the pontoon is that the 3 is less stable upwind and more sensitive to trim, thus harder to sail well overall. 

The new boat has been criticized for being unergonomic and that's certainly true. The winches are very low, they are small inside and moving material around with the foil cases taking up a lot of space there have been a lot of visits to the chiropractor from accidents stacking sails and anchors inside. 

Otherwise, the boats are pretty simple and easy to sail.... at 80%. Getting to 100% for a long time is pretty taxing however. 

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Latest video from the Figaro 3. Uncut look at how to drop the spi in admittedly light conditions, but more to come. 

 

 

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On 5/23/2019 at 10:30 PM, conrad_colman said:

Latest video from the Figaro 3. Uncut look at how to drop the spi in admittedly light conditions, but more to come. 

 

 

Can I ask why you blow the tackline rather than actually having a trip line on the clip so there is no chance of the sail setting once released? In that weight of breeze no issue, but what about 20 plus?

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On 5/23/2019 at 1:16 PM, conrad_colman said:

Hi mad. 

I didn't spend a lot of time with the Figaro 2 so I can't really compare with my own experience. Word on the pontoon is that the 3 is less stable upwind and more sensitive to trim, thus harder to sail well overall. 

The new boat has been criticized for being unergonomic and that's certainly true. The winches are very low, they are small inside and moving material around with the foil cases taking up a lot of space there have been a lot of visits to the chiropractor from accidents stacking sails and anchors inside. 

Otherwise, the boats are pretty simple and easy to sail.... at 80%. Getting to 100% for a long time is pretty taxing however. 

In this era with decent design packages and the common practice of making cockpit mock-ups etc, to find that the boat is not ergonomic to the point of injury is distinct step backwards in my view. Tricky to sail is fine, but injury causing......??

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13 hours ago, mccroc said:

Can I ask why you blow the tackline rather than actually having a trip line on the clip so there is no chance of the sail setting once released? In that weight of breeze no issue, but what about 20 plus?

mmhh, maybe the crux is the next setup for a hoist ?
Nice vid BTW, thnks fro sharing.

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On 5/25/2019 at 1:57 AM, mccroc said:

Can I ask why you blow the tackline rather than actually having a trip line on the clip so there is no chance of the sail setting once released? In that weight of breeze no issue, but what about 20 plus?

 

Why have a trip line running on deck if you can just blow the tackline instead?  You only need to make sure your tackline is long enough.

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15 hours ago, ZeeZee said:

 

Why have a trip line running on deck if you can just blow the tackline instead?  You only need to make sure your tackline is long enough.

I have a short tripline tied at the bow - if I release the tackline more than say a metre, it automatically fires. My tackline is long enough, but it seems safer to me to avoid the risk completey of the spinnaker setting because the tackline gets caught somewhere. Just my way i guess. It certainly has saved me a few times with the boat on its side.

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Sailing short handed I always stream the tack line in the water behind the boat when dropping the gennaker.  This not only prevents the line of become trapped, it also 'damps' the sail movement when blowing the tackline clutch.

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I trailed the halyard alone, kept the tackline on deck. Did not want them to tangle up in the water and form a loop coming in the cockpit were you are working.(even if it is very unlikely to happen)

How do you retrieve the tackline with a breaker line (long or short) at the end of a bowsprit, alone at night, in waves ?
In bigger winds I did letterbox drops. (smaller boat though)

But Fig sailors are inventive, hope Conrad finds time to answer.

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A thread on single-handed and dh sail handling might be worthwhile. My new boat has hanks and I'm trying to find best practices for changes and stowing sails in different conditions. Boat also uses both assy and sym kites so ditto.

Very much appreciate the effort to bring Figaro info to r.o.w.

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In this era with decent design packages and the common practice of making cockpit mock-ups etc, to find that the boat is not ergonomic to the point of injury is distinct step backwards in my view.

On Friday I took a complete tour of Nathalie Criou's Figaro 2.  She commented several times about how comfortable and effortless it is to sail, even in 50 knot winds.  Then she said that she has been talking to several of the Figaro 3 professional racers, and they have all commented how non-ergonomic the new design is. 

The skipper is the most important piece of equipment on the boat, I agree that designing the boat without excellent ergonomics is a real mistake.

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39 minutes ago, Foolish said:

On Friday I took a complete tour of Nathalie Criou's Figaro 2.  She commented several times about how comfortable and effortless it is to sail, even in 50 knot winds.  Then she said that she has been talking to several of the Figaro 3 professional racers, and they have all commented how non-ergonomic the new design is. 

The skipper is the most important piece of equipment on the boat, I agree that designing the boat without excellent ergonomics is a real mistake.

How long do they have to live with this iteration?

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Figaro 2 must be been around for 15 years by now and Marc Lombard was rather salty about not winning the Beneteau proposal. 

The 3 was a huge investment for Beneteau and they opened a new site in Nantes just to make them. The ergonomics criticism can't be fixed without revising the deckplan so a new neck for every boat already launched and future builds? Unlikely to be something that can be done at this point. It doesn't impact everyone the same way tho - older taller more experienced men, esp those who have imocas, will be complaining more. 

 

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16 hours ago, Miffy said:

It doesn't impact everyone the same way tho - older taller more experienced men, esp those who have imocas, will be complaining more. 

Oh it must be SO painful owning an IMOCA AND a F3 ... 

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On 5/27/2019 at 8:19 PM, LeoV said:

I trailed the halyard alone, kept the tackline on deck. Did not want them to tangle up in the water and form a loop coming in the cockpit were you are working.(even if it is very unlikely to happen)

How do you retrieve the tackline with a breaker line (long or short) at the end of a bowsprit, alone at night, in waves ?
In bigger winds I did letterbox drops. (smaller boat though)

But Fig sailors are inventive, hope Conrad finds time to answer.

The trip line is terminated on the deck near the forward pulpit, and only releases after a set amount of the tackline is released, so the tackline and clip are always accessible without ever having to go to the end of the bowsprit. I actually have a twin setup as well, but never lose the tack - maybe I should take a photo...

My boat is the same size as a Figaro.

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Okay, for what it is worth, here is a photo of my bowsprit and pulpit. Two tacklines running from bowsprit hooked onto pulpit. Small black line as tripline for martin breakers on both tack lines, tied to ring in front of pulpit on deck. If I ease tackline (from cockpit) more than say a metre or so, as long as the kite is full it will release the clip and I can pull the spinnaker in under the boom - it can't set itself. Never have to go out to end of bowsprit as it is always attached to the boat. If changing from masthead to fractional I can use the second tackline to have it ready to go.

My boat is 10 metres long plus bowsprit, and weighs about the same as the Figaro - similar sail area, but narrower and far older design! Square top main, non-overlapping headsails, masthead and fractional assys.

I am certainly not saying in any way that what Conrad is doing is not correct, I just wondered why letting tackline run rather than firing.

 

Bowsprit.jpg

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I'm guessing the logic behind what Conrad and probably most the Figaro sailors are doing is keeping things simple.  Things like trip lines have a habit of "tripping" when you don't want them too.

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1 minute ago, SCARECROW said:

I'm guessing the logic behind what Conrad and probably most the Figaro sailors are doing is keeping things simple.  Things like trip lines have a habit of "tripping" when you don't want them too.

For sure - I have only had it fire on me unplanned once, when I had not jammed the tackline before hoisting!

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It was over a year ago that I spouted the term "head bonker" for the inner halyard tracks.  Now take a look at this photo and tell me what designer thought that this is a good idea?  The skippers will have to wear a helmet with full face mask to protect against broken teeth and concussions.

https://www.lasolitaire-urgo.com/en/news/view/hard-life-in-a-small-space

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Interesting article not sparing the design; but still better then a minitransat.

Access to the rudder heads is essential as the skippers need to change blade angles according to conditions.

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  Translation error? Meant to say board angles??  Changing rudder angles would mean changing the length of the tie rods inside the transom.

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56 minutes ago, longy said:

  Translation error? Meant to say board angles??  Changing rudder angles would mean changing the length of the tie rods inside the transom.

No error. There is a turnbuckle on the steering arm link bar. Changing toe angle for conditions is common (where allowed) when chasing the last 0.1%

 

HW

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I am well aware that tuning the toe in angle is done - just given the tight access in the back of a Fig underdeck I wonder if it's really done much. 

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I bet that they will do it. Even if gain is minimal...
Good articles in English on the race site, well done.
 

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Does anybody have a polar of the F-3? I am asking for a friend unfortunately....

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8 hours ago, boj_mirck said:

Does anybody have a polar of the F-3? I am asking for a friend unfortunately....

Indeed, your poor unfortunate friend! ;)

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I am guessing tiny adjustments and tiny differences in conditions make a big difference in performance, making polars impossible/useless.

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Yes both macro and micro adjustments are what unlocks the boat, especially with it being so early in its development lifecycle.

What is interesting here is the perception portrayed that polars are one time issued entity. Remember that the key to developing any semblance of real performance is the continual creation of updated polars - do not get yourself trapped into baseline comparisons - that would be foolish in the most naive form.

Top sailors are self aware and natural data loggers, regardless of whether the boat even has instruments or polars. 

Seeing polar at +3% is not a gold standard guarantee of sucess. Subtle decoding of the  nuances are key - sea state, wind sheer, current, temperature and a hundred other factors need to be overlayed to have true comrehension. And with the boat and sails being so relatively new - knowing when a particular avenue of development has been optimised or maxed out is also key to stepping up to the next level, or reserving energy levels to better manage fatigue  - for example by seeing the next software level on the AP or a sail recut is the handbrake release that is really called for. 

Oh, and do this all on your own.  No wonder that the "oldies" have had a good showing in leg 1. Whether they have the physical stamina to keep it up with the remaing Figaro legs will be keenly watched. The rookie in second was a great result. The pressure builds from here. Markers are down. Let the snakes & ladders begin.......

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Absolutely! It is just A start. I love showing performance while sailing. Not because of the absolute number, but because you can see increase and decrease in these numbers, when you make adjustments to your boat settings...

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29 minutes ago, Foolish said:

Looks like La Defonce has a PHRF rating of 18.  Making it about 26 seconds faster per mile than a Figaro 2 (and 81 seconds faster than my super fantastic Olson 30). 

https://www.yachtscoring.com/boatdetail.cfm?Yacht_ID=168614

Yet, according to the article, it should NOT be that much faster if you believe his quote (at the end of the article);

“However, it is not fair that we are not the winner on corrected time after sailing such a great race. I told Laurent he needs to fight for the right rating. He needs to get that corrected.”

Of course, all of our ratings are too high right ^_^ However in this case (as the design is so new), it might actually be the case that the rating needs to come down a bit...

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18 seems pretty stiff. I would have thought no less than very high 20s, but more probably mid to low 30s.

Long race: the ratings committee should now be able to compare actual boats speeds for true wind speeds vs other boats rather than rig dimensions, sail areas & hull types.

Never understood why ratings coms don't compare polars. For new boats at least.

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1 hour ago, Parma said:

18 seems pretty stiff. I would have thought no less than very high 20s, but more probably mid to low 30s.

Long race: the ratings committee should now be able to compare actual boats speeds for true wind speeds vs other boats rather than rig dimensions, sail areas & hull types.

Never understood why ratings coms don't compare polars. For new boats at least.

Whose polars would rating committees rely on? Boat designer? Boat builder? Sail maker? Using polars will just encourage *wink wink* fraud.

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2 hours ago, Miffy said:

Whose polars would rating committees rely on? Boat designer? Boat builder? Sail maker? Using polars will just encourage *wink wink* fraud.

Any polar which had been used during the marketing of the boat which would be a lot more accurate than the race results owners present, anyway

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9 minutes ago, LeoV said:

Towing while under it is underwater

Wrong. That is the new and improved underwater foiling mode - just look at the full on mainsail powering away.

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Saw one reaching down the  Solent a couple weeks ago in about 20-25 knots with wind over tide, the plume of water being kicked up by foils was visible 2 miles away!! 

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5 hours ago, Tito said:

Wrong. That is the new and improved underwater foiling mode - just look at the full on mainsail powering away.

shit who put the foils in backwards?

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Now that's taking water ballasting a bit too far, IMO. ;-)

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I was not on board, the boat was in ferry to Saint-Quay-Portrieux, with my trainer and Christian Ponthieu, my teammate, for our participation in the Tour de Bretagne in doubles next weekend. At night, they hit a cardinal buoy, Basse Paupian, which is not lit. An unlit buoy is dangerous. A shoal, we know where it is, but a cardinal buoy has a turning zone. And unlit, we do not see it.

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This damage seems more than a tad excessive for just hitting a navigation buoy.  Hitting a buoy should not sink any boat, let alone a boat built for open ocean sailing.     From my bad translation, they were running under motor?  But they said the major damage happened under water on the sea bead over the past week?  I am really questioning the build of this boat.  And that's another of my many issues with the design.  The Figaro 2 had a crash bulkhead near the bow. Doesn't the 3?

Figaro 3 Crashed.jpg

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30 minutes ago, Foolish said:

This damage seems more than a tad excessive for just hitting a navigation buoy.  Hitting a buoy should not sink any boat, let alone a boat built for open ocean sailing.     From my bad translation, they were running under motor?  But they said the major damage happened under water on the sea bead over the past week?  I am really questioning the build of this boat.  And that's another of my many issues with the design.  The Figaro 2 had a crash bulkhead near the bow. Doesn't the 3?

Figaro 3 Crashed.jpg

What would fare better? This boat split the bow open hitting a large unlit buoy (cardinal,  so likely marking a lone rock) while under motor and then ground on the Brittany rocks for a few days before they could raise it. I believe you can see the remains of the crash bulkhead below the "F" in the NF logo at the bow.   Once the bow was breached I expect it sank bow down and rested on the bow and the keel with air in the stern holding it off the bottom. 

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Who knows how long it was dragging bottom with the current. The Figaro 3 has had early teething issues like every new boat - don't think anyone was expecting some sort of freight train.

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What would fare better?

How fast does it go under motor, 5 or 6 knots?  And hitting a floating buoy was enough to sink the boat?  I've hit things faster than that with little more than a scratch on the gelcoat.  And then to say that the bow was ripped off from scraping on the bottom?  I just don't buy it.  I hope it was towed out of the environment. Seems like lots of cello-tape and cardboard derivatives involved here.

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The boat remained under tow for quite some time before it sank. If the entire bow was gone from the collison, the folks sailing it would have reported it as such. 

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Foolish, your in a negative feedback loop. Foils not right, it is a lake sailor.
French rocks are hard, and currents are grinding the sunk boat on to it.
 

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On 9/16/2019 at 11:34 PM, Foolish said:

How fast does it go under motor, 5 or 6 knots?  And hitting a floating buoy was enough to sink the boat?  I've hit things faster than that with little more than a scratch on the gelcoat.  And then to say that the bow was ripped off from scraping on the bottom?  I just don't buy it.  I hope it was towed out of the environment. Seems like lots of cello-tape and cardboard derivatives involved here.

I agree regarding the incident of hitting a buoy under motorsail. That should not have caused anywhere near sufficient damage in the first place. What happened after that can be discussed endlessly. But hitting a cardinal mark should never have caused the boat to be abandoned in the first place.

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So now they've added big airbags to the Figaro 3.  Here is the translation from their facebook page:  Test passed the prototype of the buoyancy solution for the back of the Figaro 3 imagined by Plastimo at the request of the Figaro Class Beneteau is validated to Vincent and Moses under the advised eye of @Guillaume Farsy commission gauge and safety and Christian Ponthieu technical coordinator 

 

Buoyancy for Figaro 3.jpg

Buoyancy for Figaro 3 before inflation.jpg

What they really should have done is put an airbag on the bow, just in case they bump into another navigation buoy!

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The bow is foam and water doesn't displace any air in it - the problem is when the breach lets in water thru the rest of the boat. 

It is a good affordable solution - tho I would not want to sleep next to it if it accidentally deploys. 

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Tried to find the original of this but couldn't. 26kn in 20-30kn breeze on a Figaro 3. 

 

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1 hour ago, jb5 said:

26kn in 20-30kn breeze on a Figaro 3. 

I'm not a French professional by any means but ... Doesn't that caption say 30-40 knots...

Which is a very significant difference..one would be going faster than windspeed, which unless you are a multi or AC72, I very much doubt it would. 

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15 minutes ago, Floating Duck said:

I'm not a French professional by any means but ... Doesn't that caption say 30-40 knots...

Which is a very significant difference..one would be going faster than windspeed, which unless you are a multi or AC72, I very much doubt it would. 

Correct. The cool thing is the boat speed achieved regardless 

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Jeez that F3 is hauling. I’d add that’s a very cold and dense 30-40kts of breeze in western France. I’ll add that the UK and France are currently getting battered by storms, and just about the most French thing someone can do is take their Figaro for a sail!

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Another one going fast.  SNEF Group. Xavier Macaire and Morgan Lagravière under spinnaker in 35 knots of wind off Lorient hitting 25 knots+.

 

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It's amazing how much the foil smooths out the ride at these high speeds.  It would all be up to the trim they have set.  And although they take a little water over the bow, it is nothing compared to the foil-less designs.  I was out in 30 knots last week in my own little boat, bouncing around like crazy and digging into the waves all the way back to the cockpit. 

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Interesting research & development work being sponsored by Phil's OceansLab on maritime renewables:

Anybody know which IMOCA 60 he has secured for the VG?

Screen Shot 2020-03-07 at 11.53.49 AM.png

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36 minutes ago, Sailbydate said:

Interesting research & development work being sponsored by Phil's OceansLab on maritime renewables:

Anybody know which IMOCA 60 he has secured for the VG?

Screen Shot 2020-03-07 at 11.53.49 AM.png

Unfortunately I don't think he has managed to get an IMOCA. He has a C40 fitted with the hydrogen system that set the around the Isle of Wight record recently. I think he deserves a lot more. 

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He has the RB&I race record on the C40 too, I’m hoping this stint in the Figaro is a charter to boost publicity for a shot at VG 2024

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I was dreaming again of the Figaro 2. Apparently they've all been bought up by sailing schools.  Here is a school in Mass that has 10 of them.   https://www.cosc-usa.org/our-fleet/

And check out this video, beating into 40 knots TWS with full mainsail.   https://www.cosc-usa.org/towardthefuture/#webb40kts  Nathalie told me that the professional Figaro racers in France routinely do this, sacrificing the sail for a tiny bit more speed.  They don't reef.

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3 minutes ago, micha571 said:

There is one up for sale in France:

Wow, 85,000 Euro is a lot of money.  These things were retired and seem to have become even more valuable.

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They’re just awesome boats and considering that an irc optimised version can keep up with JPK 1030s and SF3300s on elapsed time and both of those boats beat the Figaro 3s across the line in the fastnet I bet the F2 is faster in many conditions particularly if the wind is lighter 

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6 hours ago, Foolish said:

I was dreaming again of the Figaro 2. Apparently they've all been bought up by sailing schools.  Here is a school in Mass that has 10 of them.   https://www.cosc-usa.org/our-fleet/

And check out this video, beating into 40 knots TWS with full mainsail.   https://www.cosc-usa.org/towardthefuture/#webb40kts  Nathalie told me that the professional Figaro racers in France routinely do this, sacrificing the sail for a tiny bit more speed.  They don't reef.

There's a reef in the main, despite what the video caption says. Right at the end of the clip you can see the reef bundle at the main tack

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1 hour ago, ctutmark said:

There's a reef in the main, despite what the video caption says. Right at the end of the clip you can see the reef bundle at the main tack

No, we never reef!

 

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1 hour ago, ctutmark said:

There's a reef in the main, despite what the video caption says. Right at the end of the clip you can see the reef bundle at the main tack

 

Screen Shot 2020-05-04 at 6.34.06 PM.png

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16 hours ago, ctutmark said:

There's a reef in the main, despite what the video caption says. Right at the end of the clip you can see the reef bundle at the main tack

Yes, it does look like it is reefed at the tack so I stand corrected.  But look a few seconds earlier, along the boom, and I can't see a reef.   I certainly would have thought that in a sailing school, they would reef and I was very surprised to read that they didn't. 

But Nathalie, who actually did the Figaro series twice, did definitely tell me that the professionals don't reef, and sacrifice their sails for the speed.  They even pay an extra penalty for destroying two sails in a race, but they still do it.  And when I wrote my book, I interviewed a professional skipper and he told me they don't reef. He said he's sailed in up to 50 knots without a reef.  We're all sitting here as amateurs thinking of the cost of a new sail. I guess they don't consider that.  We have to think of them more as Nascar racers who go through thousands of dollars in tires in each race. 

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Eh I’m sure there’s plenty of conditions and circumstances that demand reefing to the conditions. 
 

folks who don’t believe in reefing probably aren’t winning anything- every hull has an optimal wetted surface heel angle, with the keel being a constant and water ballast to play with - unless the boat is seriously under canvased, which the figaro 2 is not, trying to ride it out without reefing just means a slower boat. 

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5 hours ago, Miffy said:

folks who don’t believe in reefing probably aren’t winning anything- every hull has an optimal wetted surface heel angle, with the keel being a constant and water ballast to play with - unless the boat is seriously under canvased, which the figaro 2 is not, trying to ride it out without reefing just means a slower boat. 

One thing is certain - Nobody will ADMIT to reefing, after all it's not very manly to reef.

:lol:

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16 hours ago, Foolish said:

But Nathalie, who actually did the Figaro series twice, did definitely tell me that the professionals don't reef, and sacrifice their sails for the speed.  They even pay an extra penalty for destroying two sails in a race, but they still do it. 

Why do they get reef points put in their sails, spoiling the shape then?

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6 hours ago, Snowden said:

Why do they get reef points put in their sails,

Probably required for the one-design boat.

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As this seems to be the closest thread there is around on Solitaire du Figaro there is some interesting news on this years event on the link below.

The race is scheduled still for 8/30-9/20.  The final decision on if the race will go ahead this year is expected by 6/15.  They are reviewing a few alternatives including cancellation but the goal seems to be to move ahead as close to the original schedule as possible.

The list of entries (33 notified) has some great names like  Sharp, Gavignet (nice surprise), Riou, Elies and Le Cléac'h

Hopefully it goes ahead.

Alexis Loison, Armel Le Cléac'h Sam Goodchild, Violet d'Orange, Tanguy Le Turquais, Pierre Leboucher Phil Sharp, Eric Peron, Fabien Delahaye, Tom Dolan, Kevin Bloch, Alan Roberts, Corentin Douguet Sidney Gavignet, Xavier Macaire, Anthony Marchand, Pierre Quiroga, Erwan Le Draoulec Tom Laperche Lois Berrehar, Elodie Bonafous Achille Nebout, Gildas Mahé, Kenny Rumball, Yann Elies, Alberto Bona, Robin Marsh, Cecilia Laguette Vincent Riou Benoît Mariette Marc Mallaret, Nils Palmieri, Morgan Lagravière (subject to the latter).

https://mailchi.mp/tipandshaft/n212-nathalie-qur-la-voile-peut-aider-les-entreprises-se-reconstruire-autour-de-messages-positifs-484313?e=9a497c6fa7

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Scots talk with Phil Sharp has a nice Fig 3 section;
From minute 15 on...

 

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^Great interview with, Phil. Interesting discussion about the cost of campaigning a Class 40 Vs an IMOCA60. 1/10th the cost over a year, including design/build and operational costs. Lots of good stuff there. Thanks to, Ed.

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I understand the foils now; nice as replacement for waterballast in RM, and in some running conditions the foils lift a bit, so it allows you to change course more then with old style. So allowing more aggressive sailing. Interesting...

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