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oceaneer

Cheap light wind PHRF machine..

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So I have been thinking of getting a small race boat to sail out of maple bay in BC Canada.

 

Conditions.. very light wind and very protected. The bay has lots of current and most of the time fickle shifting winds.

When it does blow its gusty and not at all sustained, Short steep chop when blowing.

 

I am looking for a 2-4 person keel boat for PHRF, and under 10K in price with the tune up finished.

 

The class here has some ross 930(s) and olson 30(S) as well as a martin 242, capo 26 and some others.

The Rosses seem to be the boat to beat.

 

I have been looking at a olson 30 and a santana 525.

 

The Santana is cheaper allowing for new sails, the Olson is bagged.

Any suggestions?

What is cheap, fast in the light stuff, and has a great PHRF cert.

What should I avoid?

 

Thanks

Oceaneer

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on the mac when its in the 5th mode what does it rate?

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Oh crap, another light air boat thread? To save everyone from posting their same opinions again, here is a recent thread http://forums.sailinganarchy.com/index.php?showtopic=139501

 

I sailed a lot in Maple Bay years ago with K Palmer on Buzzy III (1950's S&S 6mR), and believe me - nothing can touch a 6mR in Maple Bay conditions. Okay, I doubt you will find one for under $10K with the 6mR revival going on, but at the time they were dirt cheap. Tricky boats to sail well though.

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What about a Stilleto 23? Sure it means switching to the dark side, but it rates around 0 on average, and is a serious weapon in light air at about half your budget.

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Olson 30 works

In the same vein, Hobie 33's are affordable and work in that area as well ( I know MBYC very well. )

If you can find one, an Evelyn 32 would rock.

 

From my POV, key is a masthead rig, lightish displacement, with enough waterline to rumble when the breeze is on.

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Current aside, those conditions are the same as Okanagan lake and there is a big fleet of 525's there.

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If you can find one. let alone find one in decent shape, an Andrews 26.

agreed. capri 30 not a bad weapon either.

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For light air the Capri 30 would be a weapon indeed.

 

Also of note the old Shark 24 is a PHRF killer with a decent turn of speed.

 

Back when the Santana 525 came out, my T-Bird would regularly beat 525s boat for boat. Fast forward 20 years later we had a 525 in our club and I was surprised my Ranger 23 tall stick could beat the 525 boat for boat, even with my speed brake (out board) down in one light air race.

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I had good results with a Ranger 33 in western Long Island sound. Might be tough to find one approaching your target price though.

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Most of you are missing the OP's crew requirement of 2-4. Rules out most of the over 25 foot set.

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What about a Stilleto 23? Sure it means switching to the dark side, but it rates around 0 on average, and is a serious weapon in light air at about half your budget.

can you PHRF race that with keel boats?

 

If you can find one. let alone find one in decent shape, an Andrews 26.

wow I have never seen one.. this is very cool, almost prefect. Whats crew does it need? Weights?

 

thanks

Oceaneer

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What about a Stilleto 23? Sure it means switching to the dark side, but it rates around 0 on average, and is a serious weapon in light air at about half your budget.

 

can you PHRF race that with keel boats?

 

thanks

Oceaneer

I race my A-Cat against keel boats. Just ask you local phrf committee if they will allow it. Some are more willing than others.

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If you can find one. let alone find one in decent shape, an Andrews 26.

wow I have never seen one.. this is very cool, almost prefect. Whats crew does it need? Weights?

 

thanks

Oceaneer

 

With running backstay and checkstays you'd want four crew total,but you could get away with three in light air. Displ. 4000 lbs. Ballast 1700 lbs

 

The CF 27 also know as the Choate 27 is another light air machine that may be easier to find. Displ. 4200 lbs. Ballast 1760 lbs.

 

The Capo 26 should also be considered. Displ. 4300 lbs. Ballast 1900 lbs.

 

The Thunderbird does OK, either a woody or woody with a Fiberglass Booth deck or an all Fiberglass Booth T-Bird. Displ. 3650 lbs. Ballast 1530 lbs.

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...not a 'machine' as you say,,, but SJ24's are about the first boats to hit hullspeed,

 

....and extra bragging points for the least inve$ted :)

 

 

http://vancouver.craigslist.ca/rds/boa/5472998666.html

 

The tall stick Ranger 23 will sail circles around a San Juan 24 in light air or breezy conditions, for the same amount of clams or less.

- and without all that rock'n and roll'n downwind in breezy conditions, for which the SJ 24s are famous.

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What about a Stilleto 23? Sure it means switching to the dark side, but it rates around 0 on average, and is a serious weapon in light air at about half your budget.

can you PHRF race that with keel boats?

 

thanks

Oceaneer

I race my A-Cat against keel boats. Just ask you local phrf committee if they will allow it. Some are more willing than others.

 

not here. you'd be sailing out of jericho in x class.

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Hmm SJ24... I just dont think we would actually finish the races.

But it is cheap.. and cheap is good

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For light air the Capri 30 would be a weapon indeed.

 

Also of note the old Shark 24 is a PHRF killer with a decent turn of speed.

 

Back when the Santana 525 came out, my T-Bird would regularly beat 525s boat for boat. Fast forward 20 years later we had a 525 in our club and I was surprised my Ranger 23 tall stick could beat the 525 boat for boat, even with my speed brake (out board) down in one light air race.

For light air the Capri 30 would be a weapon indeed.

 

Also of note the old Shark 24 is a PHRF killer with a decent turn of speed.

 

Back when the Santana 525 came out, my T-Bird would regularly beat 525s boat for boat. Fast forward 20 years later we had a 525 in our club and I was surprised my Ranger 23 tall stick could beat the 525 boat for boat, even with my speed brake (out board) down in one light air race.

For light air the Capri 30 would be a weapon indeed.

 

Also of note the old Shark 24 is a PHRF killer with a decent turn of speed.

 

Back when the Santana 525 came out, my T-Bird would regularly beat 525s boat for boat. Fast forward 20 years later we had a 525 in our club and I was surprised my Ranger 23 tall stick could beat the 525 boat for boat, even with my speed brake (out board) down in one light air race.

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The only time the 525 was as fast or faster then the J-24 was in very light air and zephyrs, anything more then light air and the J-24 comes out well ahead. The 525s were good at making a big hole in breezy conditions downwind and get stuck in that hole, as we waved goodbye to them.

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Under IOR the 525 was a 1/4 Tonner and the J 24 rated closer to 1/2 Ton.

 

That should say something about their relative speed.

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For light air the Capri 30 would be a weapon indeed.

 

Also of note the old Shark 24 is a PHRF killer with a decent turn of speed.

 

Back when the Santana 525 came out, my T-Bird would regularly beat 525s boat for boat. Fast forward 20 years later we had a 525 in our club and I was surprised my Ranger 23 tall stick could beat the 525 boat for boat, even with my speed brake (out board) down in one light air race.

capri 25 too a bit smaller

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For light air the Capri 30 would be a weapon indeed.

 

Also of note the old Shark 24 is a PHRF killer with a decent turn of speed.

 

Back when the Santana 525 came out, my T-Bird would regularly beat 525s boat for boat. Fast forward 20 years later we had a 525 in our club and I was surprised my Ranger 23 tall stick could beat the 525 boat for boat, even with my speed brake (out board) down in one light air race.

capri 25 too a bit smaller

 

 

Capri 25 is a nice boat but never thought of it as a light-air killer; I raced one against J-22s for a while and it seemed kinda sticky. The J-22 is a good light-air boat (not bad all-rounder) but not very comfy.

 

San525 is supposed to be a light air crusher like the San23 and Tuna 20, never actually seen one sailing. It is not as good-looking as it's smaller sisters, I wouldn't be surprised if it turned out to be a bit difficult to sail and a one-trick pony. The Santana 23 is a great all-rounder, I had one for years and was first to finish time & time again in light air, against a mixed PHRF fleet up to 40 footers. The ones that could hang were a Viper and a San Juan 30, when the Soverel 33 came out to play they could beat us. I also won some races in 20+, round the bouys and point races too. Sometimes I wonder why I sold that boat.

 

As for rockin' in light air, get a Thistle. Nothing like it. You can tell how much fun you're having 'cuz it feels like getting waterboarded.

 

FB- Doug

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Ranger 26??

 

The Ranger 26 is a good all around sailor. Had one for four years and easy to sail, picking up negligible weather helm as the wind builds. Originally designed with a larger main, but the first boat tested on San Francisco Bay was a bit tender in 30+, so the boom was raised about 40" to reduce sail area. Personally I'd lower the boom well below the band, 3'-4' and add a max PHRF roachy main and reduce the genny from a 153% to a 143%.

 

Some other considerations are the Moore 24, Wavelength 24, Olson 25, Ross 780 or 830, Santa Cruz 27, Hotfoot 27, Laser 28, Evelyn 26 and Soverel 26.

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my vote is an olson 30, terrific lightwind boats. better load the rail when the breeze gets up though.

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I think for not much more than 10K you can pick up an early Melges 24. One recently sold here for just over 10. Quicker in light air than any of the boats mentioned above, and can probably make do with 2-4 crew in light to med air.

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The Olson still requires 5-6 crew to run even in the lightest of breeze. 7-8 in anything 15 and above. Sailing it with 2-4 is possible, but not as efficient.

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I dunno - I would vote for a CF 27. We won VARC (Vancouver Area Racing Council) boat of the year one year. With various separate wins in various races covering a wide range of conditions however the general conditions 5 to 15 with the median wind speed around 8 to 12 "when" the thermal/sea breeze kicks in. If not a lot of the sailing will be 4 to 8. It is/was the CF 27 "Goose & Duck" that used to reside in Seattle with some good success there too. Seattle can have a lower mean wind speed than Vancouver often. The boat is parked most of the time and you might want to take a run at it if the owners are paying attention. Something like a M24 is fine but as Gary Mull you to say: "With that boat you have too go up on deck to roll over!". Things like an O30 etc are fine but with the CF 27 it's a known commodity for that type of sailing with not a lot of quirks. If you aren't doing with one; you aren't doing it right.

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So I have been thinking of getting a small race boat to sail out of maple bay in BC Canada.

 

Conditions.. very light wind and very protected. The bay has lots of current and most of the time fickle shifting winds.

When it does blow its gusty and not at all sustained, Short steep chop when blowing.

 

I am looking for a 2-4 person keel boat for PHRF, and under 10K in price with the tune up finished.

 

The class here has some ross 930(s) and olson 30(S) as well as a martin 242, capo 26 and some others.

The Rosses seem to be the boat to beat.

 

I have been looking at a olson 30 and a santana 525.

 

The Santana is cheaper allowing for new sails, the Olson is bagged.

Any suggestions?

What is cheap, fast in the light stuff, and has a great PHRF cert.

What should I avoid?

 

Thanks

Oceaneer

Oceaneer,

YOu could help us some by giving us a target PHRF rating band that you want to race in/most of the boats on your lake rate. Olson 30 is around 108, Ross 930 is around 114-120, Martin 242 in the 153-6 range, Capo 26 somewhere in the 150-165 range depending on configuration, etc. Santana 525 is down at 192 ish, Ranger 26 is 198ish, San Juan 24 is 216-222ish. You could buy a boat that only needs 3 to sail, and can easily sail to its rating in light air, but be behind the pack, and essentially sailing alone. What fun is that? You don't want to be in a race of one, racing yourself, in everyone else's bad air on the first upwind leg. Again in my opinion that's just no fun.

 

But that said, boats with the "best" PHRF certs are typically older boats that either non longer race seriously in large numbers, and so there ratings have gone soft over the years. Ranger 26, San Juan 24 are great examples of that. Properly prepped, and with decent sails, they typically can sail to there rating with ease...

 

 

If there are a bunch of boats racing there in the 180-190 range, then a Santana 525 makes a decent choice., but if most of the racing is in the 108-150 ish band, then the Olson (or something else that rates up in that range) makes a good choice..

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Olson 30!! They are unbelievable in light air, cheap and can definitely hit 15 knots + downwind.

Check their class web page. They have a bunch for sale from cheap to $20k.

Truly one of the best all round boats for the $$.

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There is a huge difference in regular old 4ksb light good light air boats and absolute killers in the light. The problem comes once the breeze comes up even a little 2-4 crew isnt going to cut it. also who you are racing against and in what fleet makes a big difference as well as its still horses for courses and waterline still plays a big part so picking a rating band you want to race in is kinda key in the decision.

 

Older boats that punch well above their rating under 7 knots

Tartan Pride 270

Tripp 26

Lindenberg 28

Andrews 26

Capri 30

 

Light air killers

Henderson 30

Any of the Thompsons especially the 650 and 750 but all of them are insane in the light

Viper 830 probably one of the best

Melges 24 and 32

Elliot 770

 

There really isnt a substitute for early old school Aus and NZ design style sport boats that focus on very high ballast to disp ratio coupled with a very narrow waterline beam. Pile on an over the top ridiculously giant sail plan and off you go. Its absolutely sick what you can do with a viper 830 that rates 75 in 5 knots of breeze. Another standout is the Henderson as it has overlapping headsails making it ridiculously fast in the light as well.

 

Depends on what you are trying to do but there is good but then there is over the top awesome if you have a venue to capitalize on it

 

Please tell me where one can pick up any of those on your second light air killer list for under $10k.

 

On the first list, most of those are rare or non-existent in the OP's neck of the woods. Silly to pay $5k to ship a $7k boat There are a scattering of Andrews 26 and Capri 30s however.

 

Agree with Maxx about the CF27, plus it has a decent interior if you're into cruising at all and who wouldn't be being so close to the Gulf Islands.

 

Andrews has slithering room down below and no amenities to speak of,but if you're okay with that then fine.. There are/were a couple around - Animal is at CFSA.

 

Given OPs budget of under $10k, they aren't likely going to find something rating less than around 150 for under $10k that is race ready. Perhaps an O30, which are quite plentiful locally but likely seen better days.

 

Besides CF27, other cheap boats that have historically done well in PNW and in reasonably good supply are Hotfoot 27, SC27, Moore 24. J/29 almost fits the bill other than crew size and might be slightly above budget, but several locally listed ones in the $12-$14k range have traded hands in the last couple of years. One of my old Hotfoots (Slick) was recently advertised at $8.5k but was a bit rough looking when I saw her a few years ago.

 

Things to avoid? Racing in Maple Bay for one thing. Besides the flukey wind, the geography of the bay makes it hard if not impossible to set a decent course.

 

I used to live near Maple Bay but kept my boat in Oak Bay so I could do RVic races. Drop by there sometime, see if you can get a ride on Dave Richardson's Hotfoot 27 - Fetish. Dave's a great guy and excellent sailor. Fetish has won their Div at Cow Bay almost every year since I can remember typically against SC27, Moore 24, Andrews 26, etc.

 

My other old HF27 is below and has been collecting a lot of pickle dishes in the Vic area lately as well. Won Patos overall last year correcting out almost a half hour ahead of the next boat - a heavily modified SC70.

post-12572-0-77308400-1459965852_thumb.jpg

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Wow! David Richardson is still at it??? That is incredible.

 

I agree about the HF 27's as well 12 meter. Not a lot of time on them myself but good all rounder that works well in the light and no quirks that I'm aware.

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Wow thanks for all the replys.

 

We need no interior what so ever, I have a older 44ft jeanneau ( that actually sails incredibly well) but to race it would be just crazy money.

 

the olson is a great boat, I think that I will have a bit more of a look for one.

the Andrews is really prefect.

As for the range.. I think that under 170 PHRF is important

 

Now its just finding ones locally that are cheap..

 

Thanks

Oceaneer

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Wow! David Richardson is still at it??? That is incredible.

 

I agree about the HF 27's as well 12 meter. Not a lot of time on them myself but good all rounder that works well in the light and no quirks that I'm aware.

 

Yep! Talked to him a few years ago at Cow Bay - hadn't aged a day in 20 or so years.

 

Over the past 10 years Fetish has won their div (typically around 15 boats) at Cow Bay 8 times. The 2 times they didn't, they were 2nd to Peptide (Moore 24) and Here & Now (J/29), a couple of very well sailed boats as well.

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I had good results with a Ranger 33 in western Long Island sound. Might be tough to find one approaching your target price though.

 

 

 

I have to agree with that. We sail an R 33 on the east end where theres plenty of wind, and the boat does equally well. Good boat for what it is.

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I love the CF27 (sailed on the blue one in Vancouver a LOT back in the day) and agree with everything that's been said about it. However...

 

My experience of Maple Bay (which is admittedly just during the labour day regatta weekends) is that the courses are super goofy. This is due to the depth of the bay and the restricted ability to set W/L marks. Courses often include numerous reaching legs. The CF27 points like a tourist, and loves to sail DDW, but struggles on reaching legs. I hate not recommending a little boat that I'm so fond of, but with that, plus the requirement to sail with 2-4 crew, I don't think it's the right boat for you.

 

My suggestion is a SJ24. Relative to it's number, it does very well in light airs (in all directions), can be sailed with 2 (3 easily, 4 no problem) and has a decent fleet of similarly rated boats at that club. Can be had for easily less than half of the budget, allowing for fresh racing rags to be added. Cheap, cheerful, and will win you a bunch of pickle dishes.

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on the mac when its in the 5th mode what does it rate?

Walk away from SA for almost 10 years, and when I get back its still the same jokes... not sure how to feel about that...

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i bought a capri 30 in Dago about 10 years ago for $7500 , had some blisters, and minimal sail inventory. bottom job was about $2500 , and i found out REAL quick it was on its ear fast up here in the channel islands. needed alot of weight on the rail. definitely fun , but pretty rough beating into medium seas at 15+ knots . off the breeze it was super responsive and played nice with just a 120% headsail cracked off .

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525 Santana would kill, as fast as j--24, maybe faster in less than 10, go for it

 

My experience too -- a potential PHRF killer in light air, with the rating it usually has.

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Merit 28

Which one (of the 2 reportedly built) is for sale near Maple Bay? 😉The one Thistle's granddad owned, which I sailed during previous ownership, was sail #4. That may or may not mean it was boat #4...but very few were built. Could be 2, could be 4, certainly not more than a half-dozen.

Of the two I know, the boat above has the original deck, the other had a Schock 30/30 deck installed late 80s or 1990.

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You are all wrong. Given the requirements stated ( light air killer, 2-4 crew, under 10K ), you want a j 22 with a genoa. Absolute, light air machine !! Sails faster than j24 in under 10 kts in flat water .

 

you're welcome

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on the mac when its in the 5th mode what does it rate?

Walk away from SA for almost 10 years, and when I get back its still the same jokes... not sure how to feel about that...

 

Welcome back sshow b. Yup - some things are universal!

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I love the CF27 (sailed on the blue one in Vancouver a LOT back in the day) and agree with everything that's been said about it. However...

 

My experience of Maple Bay (which is admittedly just during the labour day regatta weekends) is that the courses are super goofy. This is due to the depth of the bay and the restricted ability to set W/L marks. Courses often include numerous reaching legs. The CF27 points like a tourist, and loves to sail DDW, but struggles on reaching legs. I hate not recommending a little boat that I'm so fond of, but with that, plus the requirement to sail with 2-4 crew, I don't think it's the right boat for you.

 

My suggestion is a SJ24. Relative to it's number, it does very well in light airs (in all directions), can be sailed with 2 (3 easily, 4 no problem) and has a decent fleet of similarly rated boats at that club. Can be had for easily less than half of the budget, allowing for fresh racing rags to be added. Cheap, cheerful, and will win you a bunch of pickle dishes.

I had an issue in that regatta at Maple Bay and I never go after any volunteers that make that work. However, doing the regatta in the early 80's yes the courses were goofy but it's hard to do but we seem to make that work in West Van were depth current, topography is a challenge. But I was up against Wink Vogel's Dream Machine and I got a third in the first race on the Saturday then a bullet on the second and I think Wink had a 1, 2. The third race on Saturday was called for lack of wind. Sunday it was still light but we managed two more bullets. They threw out both races and when they shouldn't had. It was BS. Even Wink said it's "your" win you know. Not to be the screamer or whiner I just didn't come back again. Too bad really.

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You are all wrong. Given the requirements stated ( light air killer, 2-4 crew, under 10K ), you want a j 22 with a genoa. Absolute, light air machine !! Sails faster than j24 in under 10 kts in flat water .

 

you're welcome

 

I was itching to say j22, but there are none in the PNW.

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You are all wrong. Given the requirements stated ( light air killer, 2-4 crew, under 10K ), you want a j 22 with a genoa. Absolute, light air machine !! Sails faster than j24 in under 10 kts in flat water .

 

you're welcome

 

I was itching to say j22, but there are none in the PNW.

r

 

There was one for sale in Mill Bay last year for $3500! Mill bay is about 20 min from the OP

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I had a look at the Olson your thinking of a few months ago (#199), your right it needs work but its nothing too crazy. It really just needs to sit on land with a dehumidifier for a few months and dry out.

 

http://www.usedvictoria.com/classified-ad/Olson-30-1982-hull-199-_26908110

I sailed on this boat for a while, the guy that owns it did a ton of work on it, and I believe it was stored indoors for a long time while the work was being done.....nothing on that boat would scare me away in terms of racing around the gulf islands....don't know anything about the sail wardrobe though.

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Express 27 if you can find one in the range you call "cheap."

 

The Olson 30 linked above looks like a winner though. I doubt you'll find an Express 27 for much less than double that amount. So yeah, Olson 30.

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The B25 is tough in REALLY light air.

The Capri 25 is decent in light air and will fit the OPs request for 4 or less to make it go.

An Olson 25 would work too.

 

My S2 7.9 does OK in light air, but its really to heavy for anything under 5 knots, but you are talking 170s ratings now, not 150s (but then so is the Capri 25).

 

You could fully outfit a J24 and get in under $8k though, for sure they move as good as the J22 when it comes to the light stuff.

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The guys who owned that Olson 30 used to have a lot of "Safety Meetings" down below. Not a bad boat, but wouldn't want to cross the border in it...

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oceaneer, when you say "protected" is that like beercan racing inside a harbor or on a lake?

 

I do a lot of beercans in a protected harbor with houses all around. In this environment, mast height trumps pretty much all other factors. Get that stick up up up to catch wind coming over and around the houses.

 

In that environment, a lot of the otherwise slippery boats struggle to get the wind the crab crushers are stealing.

 

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You guys are all wrong. The solution for a place like Maple Bay is a boat with a 3 sail inventory, lots of SA/D, and furling non-overlapping jib so you can tack quickly and peel in and out of the kite without having to think about it. To wit, a Martin 242. You want a cheap one? Phone up (or email) the Sailing Director at the Royal Vancouver YC and say you heard that some of their club 242 fleet is for sale. Ask for one that doesn't have a full suit of sails. It will be dirt cheap. Buy yourself a brand new jib, find some hand-me-downs for the other two sails, spend a weekend sanding the bottom and fixing the leaky windows. Go sailing, collect trophies. The only boat that I think would beat the 242 in that sort of shifty / on-off, lake-style stuff might be a Melges 24 which is decidedly NOT dirt cheap.

 

242 sails easy with 2 people (I used to race with my best friend in Squamish - think 25 knots most afternoons - when we were 13), race OD with 4 bodies if you feel so inclined.

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Kirby 25 !!

 

The Olson 30 will beat the Kirby 25 on handicap, relatively easily. And it will smoke it boat for boat obviously as well.

 

Of course it would. It rates a minute a mile faster, and typically of PHRF,

I would certainly expect so. The OP was looking for 2 to 4 crew boat.

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oceaneer, when you say "protected" is that like beercan racing inside a harbor or on a lake?

 

I do a lot of beercans in a protected harbor with houses all around. In this environment, mast height trumps pretty much all other factors. Get that stick up up up to catch wind coming over and around the houses.

 

In that environment, a lot of the otherwise slippery boats struggle to get the wind the crab crushers are stealing.

 

 

This is the environment. The quick rule here is "tack when you touch". It's deep right to the edge most places. The winds tend to be fickle, there can be a lot of strange tidal currents running around, and there's a lot of (large powerboat) traffic passing by and through the racecourse. I have also been in Maple Bay when it was honking a steady 35, so it's not all ghosting.

 

maple%2Bbay.JPG

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