Sign in to follow this  
17mika

2016 moth worlds: Hayama

Recommended Posts

So,1 month to go till the worlds.

 

Olympics and geography seem to have had an impact on entries... http://www.mothworlds.org/hayama/competitors/entry-list/

It looks loke No 49er top guys (nathan,burling, etc) and no Bora.

 

Chat in Europe is that Rob Greenhalgh still has the fastest boat,as he showed last year.

Rashley and Goodison close behind. As usual Rashley is with a new boat,this time with no struts and and with bent wings profile.

 

What's the chat down under?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Josh McKnight dominated the AUS nationals in Jan, Rob Gough is always fast. Scott Babbage has been in Bermuda with Team Japan and may not be as well prepared as previous years.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

the total lack of comments on here says most of what we need to know about the total lack of interest. we had an event this weekend at Poole and no one was talking about the worlds all weekend. it was weird. on sunday arvo we were sitting around waiting for the prize giving when Ben Paton mentioned the worlds and that they had to pack the boats soon. Most of the responses were "is the worlds soon?". shame really. No doubt the racing will still be tough as.

 

it would be interesting if one of the maguires won. everyone will want bow sprits and no compression struts on their mach 2s.

 

dare i suggest no one will care if they don't?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

It will be a different worlds to the past few. Mostly part time sailors who sail the moth class exclusively, almost no professionals who's career is on other boats. They are very busy this year with Olympic and AC training. Consequently less media coverage from those following the big names and big money. But the top boats will still be people who have been at the top before. McKnight, Greenhalgh, and Rashley, likely names. Certainly a smaller fleet, so most likely no split fleets, which will make the racing better for most.

 

The Mach2 business has been preoccupied with the WASZP release so do not expect anything new from Mach2. Exocet has been progressing and is due for a win, especially if its light as predicted.

 

We are packing our Sydney boats this week and fly out in three weeks. Looking forward to it.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Are the exocet's wing bars normally at the same angle as a mach 2? They look really flat but prob just an illusion

 

I never measured, but to my eye they all seem very close (Mach, exocet, old rocket). Latest rockets are definitely set at a higher angle than all the others (20° maybe?).

 

Talking about compression struts, instead I believe everybody realizes that potential gains are reeeeeally small, so maybe it's more a trend than an actual big gain. Still I love how strutless boats look.. just more clean :)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

There are 5 Western Australia boats heading to Japan. Packing up today. 4 mach 2s and one Prowler F33.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

It's not going to the worlds, but still I love the concept... a "catamaran rigged" moth. From Lennon sails FB

 

13087233_570346703134495_530846313853852

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

That setup looks like way more trouble than its worth IMO.... If the mainsail even has to be fully eased for some ungodly reason while racing the whole shape goes to crap and probably speed with it. So now its more limited in mainsheet travel because of the mainsheet vang. Not to mention that there will be double tillers which are clunky.

 

He says this 20cm drop reduces RM but are there other benefits?

Do the cams lock onto his mast? I assume the have to to get that bar thing up there to work like a Cats mast to change camber?

 

It looks cool.....Ill be interested to see the results and maybe some video of this working.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

That setup looks like way more trouble than its worth IMO.... If the mainsail even has to be fully eased for some ungodly reason while racing the whole shape goes to crap and probably speed with it. So now its more limited in mainsheet travel because of the mainsheet vang. Not to mention that there will be double tillers which are clunky.

 

He says this 20cm drop reduces RM but are there other benefits?

Do the cams lock onto his mast? I assume the have to to get that bar thing up there to work like a Cats mast to change camber?

 

It looks cool.....Ill be interested to see the results and maybe some video of this working.

I think you misunderstand the rig. I believe it increases the effective righting moment, because the CoE is dropped. If you need to fully ease the sheet, shape is the least of your problems! I see there is more than enough range with the traveler. The "bar thing" isn't intended to work like a cat mast. It solves a problem that the mast can over-rotate because there is no boom, so this simply limits the rotation. And while I haven't asked Mike, it looks like it has normal camber inducers, because I cannot see how it would work if they were fixed - for instance, how do they change from one tack to the other or handle different amounts of twist.

 

Finally, Mike says you can use either a double tiller extension system, or a single one. I think there are some serious issues with boat handling with this set up, but if Mike finds a benefit, I think we would see some other changes to the layout and tiller/extension.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

If you need to fully ease the sheet, shape is the least of your problems! I see there is more than enough range with the traveler.

If the sail can only be eased to the wing bar corner without the leech going to shit (maybe it can, but I don't see how), then that might be sufficient when 10/10ths on a flat windward/leeward course, but trying to reach or go deep (say to get down a busy channel into a harbour or dodging holes when its gusty and big chop) and I expect there will be serious issues. Moths don't have an off switch, to lock the throttle at 90% is making life very difficult for all but the top few.

 

I understand this is just an experiment, and Mike hints at the issues on the Facebook page, but if there's no way to fully ease the main (say 300mm forward of the wingbar corner) without losing leech control it will be very difficult to sail.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The "bar thing" isn't intended to work like a cat mast. It solves a problem that the mast can over-rotate because there is no boom, so this simply limits the rotation.

 

Cams can rotate independently, what happens if the mast rotates a little further or a little less? Aren't the masts circularly symmetric?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Moth masts are round but the laminate is different fore and aft to the sides, so if the mast rotates 90deg it will bend completely differently to the what the sailmaker designed the sail for. So I guess that Mike has opted for the lever rather than modifying the rotating masts step, so as to prevent the mast from rotating much at all.

 

By the of the arrangement it appears that he has opted to make minimal mods to the boat, bolt on track is about it. Yes its a special sail but he is in the right business to modify a sail to and back again from this special foot.

 

Looking forward to reports on how it goes. And if he thinks he can relearn new moth techniques. Moth sailors have done this several times in the life of the class, difficult takes a few days practice, what seems impossible just takes a little longer.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I don't see the easing the sail to be an issue in foiling conditions (I already have that issue for other reasons), as long as Mike keeps the speed up, the apparent forwards. I do know that this boat will not be able to be sailed downwind in non foiling conditions with any type of result though as the "boom" won't be able to go out far enough.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

This is sounding more and more like the debate we are having with the A, about how long the traveler really needs to be. We are very close to the point where in any conditions we would have a class legal race, you don't let the sail fully out, so could use a shorter traveler and therefore save weight. The fear is those 1 in 20 occasions when you need to let it right out. However, the interesting thing then is that there isn't enough wind to blow the leach open and you can actually ease the sail fully without the need for that much control. The other thing is that in the really light fully eased situation, the bottom of the sail does so little that there is a view that you can simply letthe sail twist off and just let the top 3/4 work.

 

Although the issus are a little different, I would never have thought we would be discussing very similar things between the 2 classes.I guess it will happen more as we are now seeing the 2 classes reaching similar speeds.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

In sub foiling conditions there is low levels of interest in racing anyway. Lowriding on a moth is slow and best avoided where possible. Therefore, any issues with inability to set the sail when running square in sub foiling conditions are going to be rare anyway.

 

I really like the possibilities that could come of this if it could be made to work, reduced aero drag, improved end-plate effect, improved righting moment, reduced weight and one less item to buy. It also fills the most important rule of the moth class, it must look cool, which it does. Yes there will be development issues, but they always exist in the initial stages. But in this case we have the right person to make it work.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

In sub foiling conditions there is low levels of interest in racing anyway. Lowriding on a moth is slow and best avoided where possible. Therefore, any issues with inability to set the sail when running square in sub foiling conditions are going to be rare anyway.

 

It's not just about racing, it's also about safely getting to a from the course. Don't forget those who must navigate through crowded moorings or marinas to get to open water, or along narrow, crowded channels. That has to be done lowriding regardless of wind strength or direction, not only to be safe, but to comply with speed limits.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I like to think Foiling through the crowded moorings at my club in 15+kts made me a better moth sailor... It certainly forced me to learn quicker!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

1 week to go,time to start some betting

 

My top 5:rashley,mknight,greenhalgh,goodison,babbage

 

I know rob's favouite but I want rashley to win :D

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

from the recap video it looked like AMAC was sporting a prodder, anyone seen detailed pics of his setup (which is probably close to whatever sailingbits/Mach2boats will offer as a kit)

 

-A

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

If you mean bowsprit, sailingbits is already offering a kit made as usual by Carbonix, which is ridicously expensive but I've been told it works ok.some people in Aus and in Europe have it already. it's what Scott Babbage and other people are using is using for example

https://www.facebook.com/mothworlds/photos/ms.c.eJxNkGsOwzAIg280YQIB7n~_xdbgh~_1NVn~_IHBjJKDGEeDpUPGqzw55tWPmBDDal5wI4GKw7IxRcYSRLsAUKJjcfu2BhJGiXTIxmLiS3tYnEBTTGmhTa1iS0eZ~;c4sMd6gYk2ED0A0ilbBiwOZCMhuLdUsRjmBSfcPh593PN3gLIp~;gb6SVzkjsyBrkQp8S8XBFk6.bps.a.1187903651241839.1073741856.160102677355280/1187903664575171/?type=3&theater

 

Amac one is different. The strange thing is that it doesn't look like the wand is telescopic. Maybe it's just a first experiment.

https://www.facebook.com/mothworlds/photos/a.442865952412283.101023.160102677355280/1188552237843647/?type=3&theater

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Rohan sailed one of Amac's boats that he modified after it was damaged in transport at the Sorrento worlds. The problem with that boat was that the standard Mach 2 wand adjuster made it over legal length if the boat was dialed down too much.

 

The carbonix one is very different. It's a lot lighter, and contains the carbonix bow mechanism as well.

 

It is the closest you can come to an off the shelf kit as it glues on, but there is an argument that you could say it isn't class legal as it can't be easily removed.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Everyone in the world except the Mach2 group understood that the bowsprit and wand could not exceed the 500mm extension allowance, and built telescopic wands and limiters to comply. AMAC and team turned up with kit which exceeds 500mm and convinced the officials that the rule is ambiguous enough to allow it.

I understand that this softening will apply only to this regatta and the rule wording and interpretation will be tightened to prevent anything except the rudder exceeding 500mm beyond the Hull LOA limits.

 

They are a collision risk. Rob Gough broke his Carbonic sprit yesterday, just bumping a RIB while getting a tow through the marina doldrums after the race.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

13237723_1188561061176098_64521953844855

 

So, is it just me or is the sail below the white band on the mast. I know it won't make much difference but people are really starting to force the rules pretty hard. AMAC with his bowsprit, the glued on bowsprit. Like the rules actually look pretty understandable to me... and I'm german. I really think the class just needs one person to be the dick going around enforcing these rules.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

13237723_1188561061176098_64521953844855

 

So, is it just me or is the sail below the white band on the mast. I know it won't make much difference but people are really starting to force the rules pretty hard. AMAC with his bowsprit, the glued on bowsprit. Like the rules actually look pretty understandable to me... and I'm german. I really think the class just needs one person to be the dick going around enforcing these rules.

 

Gute Idee!

 

+ Eins! :)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

None of the bowsprits are glued on. They are all removable. Got to be to fit into the travel box. Some have a bonded on short socket which fits inside LOA because of the reverse rake of the bow. Some talk about the UK boats which have the socket but no reverse rake? Not sure if they have been checked.

 

The lower band rule was amended/corrected a year or two ago to mean no sail can go below a line 90deg back from the top of the mast band. So yes Ben's sail looks to be over stretched. By my understanding the excess foot droop should be removed.

 

The class has few protests. People rumble but never do anything. Limits are pushed and the measurers have to sort out things but usually after it happens. Rule amendments take ages to get through the class and ISAF processes. I used to be involved but no longer hold any association positions, so not sure exactly what is happening this year.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Found a closeup of the carbonix bowsprit on their web.

I have no doubt 17mika is correct that it is expensive when i see the finish and the very nice looking

built in bow mech

 

20160301_135842.jpg

 

IMG_0325.jpg

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Everyone in the world except the Mach2 group understood that the bowsprit and wand could not exceed the 500mm extension allowance, and built telescopic wands and limiters to comply. AMAC and team turned up with kit which exceeds 500mm and convinced the officials that the rule is ambiguous enough to allow it.

I understand that this softening will apply only to this regatta and the rule wording and interpretation will be tightened to prevent anything except the rudder exceeding 500mm beyond the Hull LOA limits.

 

They are a collision risk. Rob Gough broke his Carbonic sprit yesterday, just bumping a RIB while getting a tow through the marina doldrums after the race.

 

This is a scree grab of the last version of the measurement manual ... seems pretty clear to me ...

 

 

"A stem fitting could be 500mm from the bow, and a rudder fitting 500mm from the transom before any excess is added to the measured length of the hull. The rule is not intended to limit the extension to only one or the other.

 

The measurer should ensure that fittings are set in their normal sailing positions by the owner, prior to measurement proceeding. If the item is adjustable and can assume a number of positions the full range of variance shall be measured and declared on the measurement form.

 

It is not just rudder gantries that must be checked under this rule, many of the surface sensing "wand‟ systems in use with hydrofoils are mounted near the stem, and as they are a foil related item that is connected to the hull they are bound by this rule. "

gallery_19110_1247_55805.png

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

13237723_1188561061176098_64521953844855

 

So, is it just me or is the sail below the white band on the mast. I know it won't make much difference but people are really starting to force the rules pretty hard. AMAC with his bowsprit, the glued on bowsprit. Like the rules actually look pretty understandable to me... and I'm german. I really think the class just needs one person to be the dick going around enforcing these rules.

 

The band isn't legal either it needs to be 15mm wide.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The bow mech on the carbonix bow sprit is the same as the one people had before at the last worlds right? The one Scott helped make?

 

Does it work ok? A number of uk boats got it and every one of them got rid of it as it didn't work. They kept jamming unless you stripped it right down and fully cleaned it after about every 2nd sail. Shame as they were great when new.

 

Love that Amac has blagged the bowsprit in again. Sounds a bit like how the rules were "re-read" to allow the msl 16 through last time at Garda.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The Carbonic sprit is Scott Babbage concept, and his tooling. Last year's Sailing Bits mech was also made by Carbonic on Scott's initiative. The new mech is similar but some different metals to reduce corrosion.

 

Apparently the lower band measurement amendment is still not official because the UK voted against it. So Ben's sail might be OK, just like the extreme MSL16s since Garda 4 years ago. Can of worms is still wide open.

 

As I said, Rule change is a tedious process. More discussion at AGM on Wednesday.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Greenhalgh broke a shroud in first race and missed the second too.

 

Lots of other damage and a lot of back markers decided not to go out. So only about 45 finishers in each race and maybe places 30 to 45 scoring only on first lap. (moth racing has a lap scoring system, look up some moth SIs if you want the details). Tough day, not that windy but big rolling waves which occasionally peak and make big holes to fall into.

 

Meant to be 5kts windier tomorrow and waves increasing from 0.7m to 0.9m.

 

At least the waves are pretty fast (15kts?), so if you slow down a bit (to 20 in my case) you get some time to judge how to pass the next one. I have no idea how the fast guys go though them at 25+.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Greenhalgh broke a shroud in first race and missed the second too.

 

Lots of other damage and a lot of back markers decided not to go out. So only about 45 finishers in each race and maybe places 30 to 45 scoring only on first lap. (moth racing has a lap scoring system, look up some moth SIs if you want the details). Tough day, not that windy but big rolling waves which occasionally peak and make big holes to fall into.

 

Meant to be 5kts windier tomorrow and waves increasing from 0.7m to 0.9m.

 

At least the waves are pretty fast (15kts?), so if you slow down a bit (to 20 in my case) you get some time to judge how to pass the next one. I have no idea how the fast guys go though them at 25+.

Didn't somebody say that they don't have end in Japan?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Greenhalgh broke a shroud in first race and missed the second too.

 

Lots of other damage and a lot of back markers decided not to go out. So only about 45 finishers in each race and maybe places 30 to 45 scoring only on first lap. (moth racing has a lap scoring system, look up some moth SIs if you want the details). Tough day, not that windy but big rolling waves which occasionally peak and make big holes to fall into.

 

Meant to be 5kts windier tomorrow and waves increasing from 0.7m to 0.9m.

 

At least the waves are pretty fast (15kts?), so if you slow down a bit (to 20 in my case) you get some time to judge how to pass the next one. I have no idea how the fast guys go though them at 25+.

 

 

I think they just shut their eyes Phil and use their Jedi powers... its the only way I can explain it...

 

SW

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Highlight from day 2 and 3, in 20 knots and big waves. pretty intimidading stuff

 

Day 2:

 

Day 3:

 

Goodie, Rashley, Babbage.

 

EDIT: usual great interviews by Nic Douglass day 2 and day3

 

PS Thanks Phil for the updates: how was the class Meeting? I've been told that Argentina didn't get the majority for the 2018 worlds, so it's gonna be voted worldwide by all national classes (Argentita, Bermuda, Perth are the possibilities, if I got it right). What about the rules change? :)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

AGM summary.

 

The 2018 worlds bids were from Bermuda, Perth and Argentina. The vote at the meeting was split so the decision will be made by a vote of national associations via the IMCA rules.

 

The meeting also referred 3 rules matters to the voting system:

1. Clarification that nothing extends past 500mm from the bow, (ref AMAC's wand)

2. Re-vote on the droopy foot / lower band limit at 90deg to luff. (ref MSL16.1 and latest Lennon sails)

3. New wording needed to stop gantries being streamlined into the hull lines. (ref latest Exocet gantry on Greenhalgh's boat)

all of which we agreed if allowed to develop to extremes would change boats well beyond what is now accepted as a moth. eg retractable bowsprits longer than 500mm, masts and sails much taller than present with luff and band well above the bottom of the sail, and hulls effectively longer than 11ft.

 

The class is short of people willing to run it. Scott reluctantly took on President for 5th year, no one volunteered to be secretary or measurer. Too few moth sailors are willing to work for the class. Not a healthy sign.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Hi all - here are my videos from day 2 and 3.

I missed day 1 as I was in transit from my IMOCA 60 adventures in Newport R.I.

More from tomorrow (today is a lay day).

Live updates during racing on my social media - Facebook, Twitter or Instagram.

Day 3:

https://youtu.be/gg-C6neAFSM

Day 2:

https://youtu.be/bI32B2gWZ3I


Oh just saw they were already shared above, thanks guys!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I think you have a point there Phil. The class isn't very healthy in that respect. Plenty of sailors but they have no interest in the class. They just want to race on foils. Amac might be onto something.

 

That said I don't know of many classes that fare any better. I can think of several that survive on the back of the odd fanatic.

 

Does anyone know what the weather is looking like for the rest of the week?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Really thanks Phil for the updates.

I've never been to a worlds, so I never took part in that kind of discussion. In Italy finally we are a small group of people who likes to be involved, but I understand that managing the int class is a big burden for a lot of people.

 

Regarding weather, people there correct me if' I'm wrong, but it's looking pretty light on both days. If we understood something last year, don't rule out Rob Greenhalgh. Unless Goodison has found another gear also in the light, Rob will be the one to beat speedwise in anything below 14 knots.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

10kts forecast for last 2 days. Should be flatter too. Going to be tight at the top. Plenty of fast boats in these conditions.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Interesting that the Moths are going through some of the same rules issues that we have seen with the A Class. The black band one is the interesting one. We have actually just dropped black bands. The view is that we measure the sail area pretty accurately and that is what really counts. We also have the situation where the theoretical black band for a rig is below the bottom of the mast - in fact, it is actually possible to design a sail that the theoretical black band is below the tramp.

 

I think the attitude of measuring the sail and forgetting black band works well, but we might have to revisit this if people then begin to develop stretchy materials in order to cheat the rules. I also suspect that there is a different attitude within the classes. With the A, except for one noticeable exception in recent times, people are most interested in developing things that are clearly within the boundaries of the rules. in the Moths, people enjoy trying to push the rules and their interpretations to the limit. There is nothing wrong with that and it goes to the very nature of the class, but it is not what we see in the A's. I suspect it id due to the long tradition in Moths that people experiment themselves, and that you really do see significant differences between boats, even of the same design, because of this constant "fiddling" in order to get the best boat. In the A's, we simply don't have he areas in which we can do this sort of development - for instance, we have no wand systems to personalise.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

In the moth case it is people designing sails that are explicitly pushing the rules, and the same country where those sails are made (the same club if I understand it correctly) being the ones that stop the amendment being passed into the class rules to enforce the original intent, screwing it up for everyone else.

 

Screen Shot 2016 05 28 At 3.54.28 PM

 

As you can see, the latest Lennon sail is well below the band, (yet above it on the mast) the Sorrento AGM agreed that this was not the intent of the rule, but the amendment was not passed. This has been proposed again, which will mean sails will have to be re-cut as they are non compliant (which is nothing new in the moth class and a $50 job to fix). However if not passed, then sails will be designed to "stop" and the band then drop straight to the floor, either side of the boom like a 49er to create an end-plate.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Doesn't this fall under the banner of the ISAF (or what ever they're called now) prescription on sail measurement? As an area rule the definitions of what it means to go past the black (or white) band are pretty well defined. Although better minds than mine have obviously gone over this.

 

Not a good development in my mind...

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

If you look at the ISAF/WS Equipment Rules, http://www.sailing.org/tools/documents/ERS20132016-[13763].pdf there are definitions for measurement bands and for corners and edges of sails but I can not find anywhere which actually says sails can not go past bands. I guess it has to be in the class rules. Thats what we are trying to do.

Bruce, UK did vote no, but other countries did not even bother to vote at all so the motion was lost.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Speaking of developments. The new Furaya san foil is a work of art. no visible push rod and looks very slippery. My hat off to a man in his 70s making awesome gear and then personally crash testing it. Sailing a foiling moth at 70 is worthy of hero status in my opinion. Lots of other little foil developments in the park.

 

The Exocets have some nice little features but the big talk has been bowsprits and the removal of the compression tubes on the wings.

 

As far as rigs go everyone seems impressed with the Lennon rig despite the controversy over the black band.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The sail conversation is daft. The uk measures tried to stop the 16.1 style foot at 2012 but got voted down. Can open as Phil says.

The amount of rig development Ashley and Lennon have been doing to win an amateur sailing event is obscene. I don't know whether it's making any difference but it's pretty demotivating to the rest of us.

 

The compression strut removal can't have made much difference can it?

 

The bow sprit is just a no brainer really but it doesn't fit into the Mach 2 production easily. That's my bet on why Amac is dragging his feet on it. I understand why though. If the wazsp became 1% of the laser he's onto a winner so I'd spend all my development resource on that too!

 

Is there any update on how the Scott Babbage bowsprit is doing? Us European types without an Exocet on order (3 year wait last count despite increased production) need something!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The bowsprit is not the winner, these guys win when it flat too, same bunch at the front as always, just great sailors will well sorted boats. Quite a few exocets and bowsprits back in the fleet too.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I'm coming in blind with no experience in the class, and maybe I'm missing something obvious, but don't the ISAF rules define 'luff length' as measuring from the point which is the intersection of the extension of luff and foot?

 

Are these sails set an equal distance below the top band? (I can't believe that) - if not, then don't they violate the max luff length rule?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Results: Goodison (GBR), Rashley (GBR), Greenhalgh (GBR), Babbage (AUS).

 

 

Awesome racing... Well done to all :)

That's what I'm talking about!

Greenhalgh was unlucky with the break.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I'm coming in blind with no experience in the class, and maybe I'm missing something obvious, but don't the ISAF rules define 'luff length' as measuring from the point which is the intersection of the extension of luff and foot?

 

Are these sails set an equal distance below the top band? (I can't believe that) - if not, then don't they violate the max luff length rule?

 

There is no top band, and when under tension they do indeed violate the rule. I think the real problem is that the difference between the unloaded "measurement" condition and the real use on the boat is massive. Everyone is trying to push the rules and no one is trying to make something that is not legal.

 

The real problem is that when you are at a regatta, and you are the one telling people that their gear isn't legal you feel like a real asshole. It is bad enough when you have to tell people to change their numbers because they are 10mm too close to the leech.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

I'm coming in blind with no experience in the class, and maybe I'm missing something obvious, but don't the ISAF rules define 'luff length' as measuring from the point which is the intersection of the extension of luff and foot?

 

Are these sails set an equal distance below the top band? (I can't believe that) - if not, then don't they violate the max luff length rule?

 

There is no top band, and when under tension they do indeed violate the rule. I think the real problem is that the difference between the unloaded "measurement" condition and the real use on the boat is massive. Everyone is trying to push the rules and no one is trying to make something that is not legal.

 

The real problem is that when you are at a regatta, and you are the one telling people that their gear isn't legal you feel like a real asshole. It is bad enough when you have to tell people to change their numbers because they are 10mm too close to the leech.

 

 

thanks for the clarification. 'no top band' == full hoist.

 

It is difficult to police -- I guess that's why there's usually a designated arsehole to do measurements :) No worries getting up people's noses, as that's his job.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Because the class is an open development Box Rule class there is no correct dimension for anything. There is a max for LOA, beam, sail area and luff length, plus one hull, one person, one sail. Not a not else.

 

There is a max for the mast length which is long enough to cope with unstayed masts going to the keel, but since almost every boat has stays the masts are mostly about 1m shorter than the max. Reduction of this limit would make all of the imminent WAZSP production ineligible to race in the moth fleet.

 

The debate about sail area going lower than the mast band comes about because some consider only the luff is limited by the band and that the foot can droop well below the band. The argument is that the total sail area is measured anyway, so nothing is really gained.

 

The logical extension of this argument could be that people develop tall rigs, using more of the allowable mast length, and with the mast band and luff pocket up to 1m above the boom and bottom of the sail. Such a rig may have a big advantage in light winds, but would soon be replaced with a lower rig is good foiling weather.

 

Going the way of multiple rigs for different conditions is something most moth sailors want to avoid. The recent AGM already decided that in the interest of cost reduction future NOR and SIs will include restriction to 2 only of masts, sails, and foil sets per regatta.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

This black band issue is a total red herring. I cannot think of a single class that measures any differently from the Moth and a change in rule would be impossible to police. What are you going to do? A rule that says that a sail cannot be lower that a line at 90 degrees to the mast coming from the black band? Imagine you build a sail to that, so the clew is on that line. Now pull on some vang. The sail becomes illegal. So you cut the sail so that the clew is above this imaginary line. How do you calculate this position? How do you measure that with maximum tension, the sail stays above the line? I certainly am not going to let a measurer pull the life out of my new sail!

 

The problem isn't the sail measurement rules. There is a way of measuring sails that captures the whole area, so even if you see some big foot development, it still has to fit in the measured area. The black band/luff rule helps prevent a cheating sail that gets through measurement but can then be stretched to a significantly bigger size. The problem is the mast length rule and if there is concern about these super high masts, then that is the one that needs to be changed and it is a simple change to still allow keel stepped masts. There are a number of options. One class I used to measure defined the maximum mast height as being above the sheer line, but if that is too hard on a Moth, how about from the top of the foredeck. Or how about maximum height above the bottom of the boat. Yes, I know it makes measurement harder, but at least it can be accurately policed. Or, if you are already allowing 2 rigs at a regatta, you just forget about it entirely and have a good laugh when somebody gets caught out with the wrong rig up.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

With so much development going on that pushes the limits of the class coming from professionals (ie salaried sailors, sailmakers, boat builders etc), it could be possible that the main office bearers of the class being volunteers is leading to a situation where the inmates rule the asylum as there is just not enough time for the volunteers to stay ahead of the game.

 

The "hard arsed bastard" that appears to be part of the solution is a big commitment to take on, especially if they have to pay to travel to across the globe every 12-18 months to the worlds regatta, and then compromise their own regatta (assuming at this point they can afford the time to train) arguing with people about their sail numbers because they didn't read the SI's and ISAF guide.

 

its an interesting issue, and I'm sure its not isolated to the Moth Class.

 

SW

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I really don't think the issue has anything to do with "professionalism". In fact, I would suggest that compared with "back in the day" the rule limits aren't being challenged that hard at all. I think the biggest challenge for classes like the Moth and, for that matter, the A Class, is a fairly lay back attitude to rules in general. It seems to me that the fewer the rules, the more people want to push them and the less people care! I have always considered the Moth rules as an attitude, rather than a dogma! ;)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

This issues has some parallels with the issue that I14's had a number of years back when headboards started artificially raking upwards to lengthen the leech and add sail area to the head (above what a perpendicular line would measure in standard sail measurement terms), thereby gaining free area.

 

Some headboards started to rake at excessive angles - I believe that there is now an addendum to prevent sail area projection above the horizontal extension of the top black band. (Which because most rigs are rake aft at their tips - makes the angle between luff and top seam be limited to about 109-112 Degrees).

 

Could a similar addendum not be asserted within the moth rules - no sail area to extend below horizontal extension of lower black band? Which for measurement purposes could be taken to be: deck line, line of outer wing bar, waterline etc..... Whatever is seen to be the most appropriate and/or easily measured and policed.

 

No one is suggestive that there is a deliberate attempt to "cheat" but some judicious speaking up, and clarification will keep those that are forever pushing the boundaries to stay legitimate.

 

It is worth saying that self regulation starting at club level amongst active members; and it is always preferable than leaving it to class officialdom - which leads to no one volunteering for these posts....... and bad blood being gently cultivated.

 

Keep it keen, but keep it clean.

Otherwise you'll end up sailing's equivalent of a Hoodie - and probably sail a Melges 32 with an offensive name...... ;):ph34r::angry:

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Boink what you say (extension of the band perpendicular to mast),is exactly what was written down by in the draft rules which were circulating among presidents/measurers last december.

 

Uk guys said basically:

- it was expensive to modify sails (which is bullshit in my opinion)

- is was impossible to measure (which have some grounds,as simon says, but I think it is reasonably doable)

 

Then stuff was discussed again at the latest agm on wednsday

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

90 degrees to the luff is pretty easy to make, measure and enforce. 90% of moth sailors appear to agree. Its the official decision making process which hold up progress, combined with not enough people showing active interest and voting.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

90 degrees to the luff is pretty easy to make, measure and enforce. 90% of moth sailors appear to agree. Its the official decision making process which hold up progress, combined with not enough people showing active interest and voting.

Do you mean 90 degrees from band? I agree its dead easy to make, measure and enforce 90 degrees to the band.

 

Whats this about a 2 foils, rigs etc rule you mention above Phil?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

90 degrees to the luff is pretty easy to make, measure and enforce. 90% of moth sailors appear to agree. Its the official decision making process which hold up progress, combined with not enough people showing active interest and voting.

90 degrees from the luff isn't quite as easy to measure as some may thing because luff curvature means there is always some interpretation to be done by the measurer. You would be far better to take 90 degrees from a line between head and tack, which I assume you have to mark out to measure the sail anyway. Having said that, I suspect a 90 degree that will make a fair number of older sails (scow and early skiff era) illegal, which you can always grandfather. I also suspect from looking at photos that some modern sails which nobody nobody would have an issue with might fall foul of the rule. It is easy to assume that as most modern sails today have high cut clews because of the wings that is the only way to go.

 

It seems to me to be crazy to be concerned about this. Nobody can get a bigger sail than others because of the current situation. Wat am i missing? What advantage is anybody getting? IMO the tall rig argument is poor, because you already allow more than one rig to be measured. So what if it is a tall one and a short one, instead of a stiff fuller one and a bendy falter one. It is still 2 masts and 2 sails which require separate development.

 

I hate rules for the sake of rules and I am clearly missing why this issue is so bad as everybody has the same sail area and the sails don't look "wrong" as such.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

 

It seems to me to be crazy to be concerned about this. Nobody can get a bigger sail than others because of the current situation. Wat am i missing? What advantage is anybody getting? IMO the tall rig argument is poor, because you already allow more than one rig to be measured. So what if it is a tall one and a short one, instead of a stiff fuller one and a bendy falter one. It is still 2 masts and 2 sails which require separate development.

 

I hate rules for the sake of rules and I am clearly missing why this issue is so bad as everybody has the same sail area and the sails don't look "wrong" as such.

 

 

Simon I think that that the moment everyone wants to tidy up this area from and airflow point of view and know how far they can push, but still be legal without loosing too much mast length.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Gear restrictions.

 

Lots of talk in boat parks and forums for last few years. A lot from people who might want a moth hedge at the cost of a quiver of foils as owned by some of the leading moth sailors. The AGM agreed without much discussion that a limit of 2 sets of gear per regatta was a good idea in getting control of costs and reducing the perception that the class is getting too expensive to enter.

 

Some lesser ranked mothies think it too restrictive, others think it should be one set. Lest see how it goes.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

so no body discussing the results?

The aussies when down and under.

of course it's not really representative without nathan and pete.

but it is was it is.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

 

 

It seems to me to be crazy to be concerned about this. Nobody can get a bigger sail than others because of the current situation. Wat am i missing? What advantage is anybody getting? IMO the tall rig argument is poor, because you already allow more than one rig to be measured. So what if it is a tall one and a short one, instead of a stiff fuller one and a bendy falter one. It is still 2 masts and 2 sails which require separate development.

 

I hate rules for the sake of rules and I am clearly missing why this issue is so bad as everybody has the same sail area and the sails don't look "wrong" as such.

 

 

Simon I think that that the moment everyone wants to tidy up this area from and airflow point of view and know how far they can push, but still be legal without loosing too much mast length.

 

I get that, but we keep coming down to the same thing - mast length. Surely that is what needs to be properly sorted in the rules. A maximum height of mast above a clearly defined point would still allow unstayed, keel stepped masts and would clear this anomaly up once and for all. FWIW, this has been discussed in the Moths ever since i started sailing the class in the 1970's. People said somebody would find a way of using the extra long mast, and now, 40 years later, they still haven't. Redefine this one rule and the current concerns would go away, although it would kill off a lifetime of conjecture!

 

And just to add congrats to Goody. Top result. Well done to the other 2 British placegetters, and particularly tough luck on Rob G to suffer what was probably a championship losing gear failure. I would love to hear more about that. Commiserations to Scott on yet another 4th place. If anybody deserves to break through, it's him.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Yep, real congrats to Goodie, although I was reeeeally hoping for a Rashley win, because of the huuuge amount of time and effort he's put in the last five years to develop the exocet and the Lennon sails. All the brits (and us who use lennons and/or maguires) owe him something.

 

I have to say also some congrats to Cookie, to push the barriers by introducing bowsprits and strutless boat in production in the past years. Now everybody believe that bowsprits are useful and that strutless boat can work, but it definitely wasn't like that 2 years ago.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Soooo

If I want to put a big red ring in my 2017 calendar and start convincing the wife that spending 2 weeks in Northern Italy is a great idea for a summer vacation. what dates should i mark?

 

nothing on the moth webpages

 

A

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

July 23-29 in Fraglia Vela Malcesine. Italian nationals on July 20-21.

If you wish to find another reason to stay more, probably the foilong week will be 2 weeks before all that :D

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites