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Longman

New Mini 650 class rules

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I wanted to ask this question with the new Mini 650 class rules in mind.

 

The new rules state that the max beam at the start of a race must still be 3m however this can expand to a maximum of 6.5m

 

Would it possibly make an older fixed keel boat more competitive (tell me how well you think it would go) by adding either a horizontal DSS board like the mini designed by Hugh Welbourn, or foils similar to the quant 23.

 

Do you think a flying boat would be too hard to handle.

 

I had thought a fixed keel boat would be better suited so you don't have to have either verticals like the IMOCA boats. Also that's what Hugh had done on his DSS designed boat.

 

The rules also state that after the start the draft can be increased. Again would a fixed keel which can be dropped by another 50cm be worth it as it wouldn't affect the static heel angle.

 

Also when you you think we will see some modifications to boats with these rules in mind?

post-27889-0-60470600-1461709024_thumb.jpg

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The box limits were changed specifically to allow foils to extend out not in. One of the IOMOCA 60's is a last generation retrofitted with RM foils and biggest issue with that is structural modification. Likewise I assume there will be enough savings and maybe some grandfathering advantages from the old design rule to make it worthwhile for building a new mini proto out of an old one.

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As I understand it the DSS does not exactly make much sense for wide boats such as "standard" Minis. The DSS Mini in fact has quite a narrow hull. Correct me if I'm wrong.

 

Re flying boats: Five years ago my answer would have been "oh god yes, look at what happened to L'Hydroptère, those things just aren't made for the open ocean!". Now my answer would be: Yes, it's possible. No, it's not too hard to handle. Hell yes, it's very physical. Hell yes, it will still be difficult to keep it up on foils.

But what we're attempting now with foils (on IMOCAs and soon on Minis, I'm sure) is not to make them fly but to foil assist (thank you Doug, I still love this word), lifting the boat a bit higher out of the water and reducing drag significantly.

 

I could see a few of the old, less competitive boats still worth retrofitting with foils, yes.

 

A keel that can be dropped by 50cm is not exactly "fixed", the structures necessary to support such a movement would likely be so heavy they'll cancel out any gains made.

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By the way do you know what happened to the DSS mini? Did it race? I can't find photos of the boat with a race number on.

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Don't believe it did any Classe sanctioned races, definitely not either of the TransAts. Definitely got rigged up and sailed though.

 

By the way do you know what happened to the DSS mini? Did it race? I can't find photos of the boat with a race number on.

DSS Mini has a relatively narrow hull, and was restricted by the rules at the time (No appendages outside the beam box except bowsprit). Re the keel, there were a few minis raced that had very much "3D" keels (3d motion + telescopic) and so far as I know there weren't any huge reliability issues. The 3D keel was seen as fast but finicky (with apparently too many settings - the skipper would get dragged into tuning the keel and miss other things) and the telescopic fast but a bit heavy I think.

 

HW

 

 

As I understand it the DSS does not exactly make much sense for wide boats such as "standard" Minis. The DSS Mini in fact has quite a narrow hull. Correct me if I'm wrong.

 

Re flying boats: Five years ago my answer would have been "oh god yes, look at what happened to L'Hydroptère, those things just aren't made for the open ocean!". Now my answer would be: Yes, it's possible. No, it's not too hard to handle. Hell yes, it's very physical. Hell yes, it will still be difficult to keep it up on foils.

But what we're attempting now with foils (on IMOCAs and soon on Minis, I'm sure) is not to make them fly but to foil assist (thank you Doug, I still love this word), lifting the boat a bit higher out of the water and reducing drag significantly.

 

I could see a few of the old, less competitive boats still worth retrofitting with foils, yes.

 

A keel that can be dropped by 50cm is not exactly "fixed", the structures necessary to support such a movement would likely be so heavy they'll cancel out any gains made.

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This is the DSS Mini:

 

 

2dp15f.jpg

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For the new mini rule, is there an appendage restriction similar to the IMOCA rule?

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For the new mini rule, is there an appendage restriction similar to the IMOCA rule?

 

Nopes, none, only for the Series, as it used to be.

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Good. I imagine we'll see quite a different group of foil solutions than. Should be interesting.

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And fun to watch, have seen a short vid of a new unnumberred mini with foils, it jumps on the foil easily, but falls off spectacular too.

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Banque Pop modified 198 with Dali foils, cannot find the videos at the moment.

 

198 also had one of the first keels which extended as it canted. The pivot was a cassette and the fin tracked along a carbon hoop inside the boat as it canted. Most of the newer protos have something similar

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Good. I imagine we'll see quite a different group of foil solutions than. Should be interesting.

+1

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Link? Seem to remember stills of one but no video.

 

HW

 

And fun to watch, have seen a short vid of a new unnumberred mini with foils, it jumps on the foil easily, but falls off spectacular too.

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Hali, not on the internet to see AFAIK, seen in private, you could not see the foils, kind of teaser clip.

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Yes this will be an interesting space to watch learning curves for curved foils and straight combos Quant 23 production boats must be getting close to water if not on the water already , nothing like boat to boat testing Boats to Boats even better

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Banque Pop modified 198 with Dali foils, cannot find the videos at the moment.

 

AFAIK they removed the foils again, though. Just for IMOCA testing!

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198 has had a hell of a life if that's the case....

 

It very much is.

 

And was for sale for "negotiable price" in "new configuration" last year. Still going strong: http://histoiredeshalfs.com/Histoire%20des%20Minis/198.htm

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She's still quick too- Sebastian Picault sailed her to credible results.

 

 

How has she remained competitive so long? What kind of mods have been done to keep her quick??

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Built in 1997

-> Won the MT.

 

Mod in 1999

Bottom tanks (2 x 110l), new daggerboard, new boom and new daggerboard well.

-> Won the MT.

 

1st to 10th place in any race entered between 1999 and 2004.

 

5th in MT 2005

 

Mod 2005/2006

New rotating mast, new floatation foam, elliptic track swing keel (extends when canted), optimized with the help of the University of Nantes.

 

> This is probably what kept her majorly fast after the new generations of boats dropped. Also, Adrien Hardy is a damn good sailor.

 

1st in Les Sables - Azores - Les Sables 2006

 

6th in MT 2007

-> After dropping his rig and putting it back up again all in 12 hours.

 

27th in MT 2009

 

4th in Les Sables - Azores - Les Sables 2010

 

12th in MT 2011

 

Mod 2014

Banque Populaire foil test platform

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wow! clearly you don't need buy a new boat to keep up in top form.

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wow! clearly you don't need buy a new boat to keep up in top form.

 

Even #598 could become lighter ;)

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wow! clearly you don't need buy a new boat to keep up in top form.

That's true if you're an unbelievably talented sailor, great boat builder and naval architect like Mr. Hardy....

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His stunt to rehoist his mast at sea was unbelievable in seamanship, Bob Salmon would be proud.

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