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Ajax

The Discarded- Rescuing a Tartan 33

822 posts in this topic

Ok, it's not a tale of woe on par with the environmental disaster of the Olympics in Rio: http://forums.sailinganarchy.com/index.php?showtopic=173656

but I felt the title was accurate enough to make it worth stealing.

 

I've hogged VALIS' "boats worth rescuing" thread long enough, and that discussion should be allowed to resume its course, so here we are.

I've known about this Tartan 33 sitting on the hard for about 8 months. A friend intended to buy it, but found a version in better shape. He, other friends and the Most Significant Other have been nudging me to at least inspect it for months. It's like a lost dog that keeps showing up on my doorstep. "Shoo! Go 'way, I already have one!"

 

#168 of a little over 200 boats produced. The history of the T33 is easily available so I won't rehash it here. Suffice it to say that the 33 was regarded as a "middle child" that enjoyed decent sales and earned a decent reputation for Tartan.

 

To me, the biggest deterrent to the purchase was "starting over." I can't afford big boats that are beautiful and ready to sail. I always have to rescue a near-zombie and breathe life into them as fast as my wallet will afford, and still let me grow my retirement accounts. And Jesus Christ, is Bright Leaf almost a zombie...

 

Almost. The bones are solid and the engine started up without putting up too much of a fight after 5 years of sitting on the hard and the boat partially flooding from rains.

The trunk of my car is FULL of shiny new boat crap and my wallet is gasping for a reprieve.

 

A brief history of Bright Leaf:

 

- Seems to have spent most of its life on the Chesapeake Bay. A friend vaguely recalls racing against it in the 90's. He *might* even have a photo.

- Most recent PO says the boat was raced until he bought it.

- Most recent PO sailed it for a year or two and mostly due to personal issues, parked it on the hard and walked away with pretty much 3 visits in 5 years to unclog the cockpit and pump out the over-full bilge. So...discarded.

 

Work starts this week and I'll try to take lots of photos.

 

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OH BOY...another journey!! A chance to live through another refit without it actually having to spend my own money.

 

 

:D

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The Tartan 33 is a pretty good boat and worth 25-30K in good condition. They made 2 models, the 33 with fractional rig and the 33R with mast head. The 33 had the Scheel keel. S&S Design. Later on Tartan brought out masthead version with the Scheel Keel and extended the transom 8" and called it the 34-2. Same boat but with Jackett as the designer. No more royalty fees to S&S.

 

If keel sump is good this could be a great boat. They reach very well but not that great in light air with the fractional. Probably worth a shot.

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Good luck Ajax. T33 is an excellent choice to revive. Good design and the cabin sole is not as bad a job as on many others.

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Excellent! Good luck Ajax, look forward to progress updates.

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OH BOY...another journey!! A chance to live through another refit without it actually having to spend my own money.

 

 

:D

And the chance to tell someone else how to spend their money! :lol:

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Masochist. :)

 

What sort of sailplan/inventory has Bright Leaf got? Will it be race-able with your usual crew?

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Masochist. :)

 

What sort of sailplan/inventory has Bright Leaf got? Will it be race-able with your usual crew?

 

The autopilot is dead/missing parts. I might find more...still going through lockers.

Sail inventory? A main that is still somewhat stiff by Doyle, a genoa and a smaller jib. I haven't found a spinnaker yet but there is a pole and hardware on deck.

 

It has a Harken Mk I so those two sails will cover a lot of wind range. I think the seller said the genoa is damaged. Gotta lay 'em out and see.

 

Yeah...masochist for sure. It has the usual pile of waaaaaaaaaaaaay obsolete electronics- green-screen Raymarine radar (non-functional), LORAN receiver, analog/twisty-dial VHF radio <facepalm>.

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Those are really nice boats, there is a dark green one here locally and I always admire it when it's out sailing.

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Congrats, Ajax! It sounds like you have plenty of work ahead of you, but I'm very jealous.

 

I have a real soft spot for that size and style of boat. 10,000lb displacement in a low-30s LOA is about the smallest size in which the classic orthogonal layout works comfortably in a fast cruiser, without compromises such as trotter boxes or an insanely-squished galley. That late70s/early 80s era was a sweet point for that type of boat: easily-handled fractional rigs had replaced the genoa farms of the early 70s, cockpit ergonomics had improved, and fuller sterns made for nicer handling and more space than mid-70s IOR shapes.

 

The Westerly Fulmar was probably the best of this type in the UK, with over 400 built. The Swedes built over 500 of their Scanmar 33, a very similar hull shape but with an aft cabin under the cockpit.

 

I have never seen a Tartan 33 in the flesh -- not many American boats of that size in Ireland -- but the pictures show a boat way prettier than either the Fulmar or Scanmar. If only it had a tiller I'd say it was a near-perfect cruising boat.

 

I'm sure she will give you lots of pleasure.

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TwoLeg-

 

I did compromise on a lot of things that I said "I'll never..."

 

I surrendered the tiller for a wheel, masthead for fractional, hanks for roller furling. I really, really don't want a boat any bigger than this, because I want to be able to singlehand easily. This boat is probably going to push my boundaries. It's nearly a ton heavier than the Pearson 30.

 

The mainsheet is end boom and the traveler is just forward of the wheel. I should be able to singlehand by sitting off to the side, in front of the wheel. Gonna take some practice, and I'll need to mark the wheel with port/center/stbd tacking guides.

 

There were two layouts- Plan A and Plan B.

 

Plan A has a pilot berth and the icebox is opposite from the galley on the port side, forward of the nav station. Apparently some people didn't like the loss of the double berth on port side.

Plan B is the more traditional layout with the icebox with the galley and the long settee/double berth on the port side.

 

This boat is Plan A, which I am happy with. I will definitely use the pilot berth.

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Something to look at in the meantime-

post-42428-0-24778200-1462204448_thumb.jpg

post-42428-0-51440800-1462204469_thumb.jpg

post-42428-0-04625700-1462204485_thumb.jpg

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Something to look at in the meantime-

 

Is there an engine space cover, or is it just sitting there exposed under the ladder like that?

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Masochist. :)

 

What sort of sailplan/inventory has Bright Leaf got? Will it be race-able with your usual crew?

 

<SNIP>

 

Yeah...masochist for sure. It has the usual pile of waaaaaaaaaaaaay obsolete electronics- green-screen Raymarine radar (non-functional), LORAN receiver, analog/twisty-dial VHF radio <facepalm>.

 

You could start a museum with that stuff. If you do, I have a few items to contribute. A VDO knot log and a blinky LED depth sounder, for starters.

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Good stuff Ajax... Does the pierson stay in the fleet or?? Watch out in the light as you are not going to have the turn of speed you had in the pierson... Good on ya admiral....

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Something to look at in the meantime-

 

Is there an engine space cover, or is it just sitting there exposed under the ladder like that?

 

 

No, there's a removable cowling that covers the whole thing. I was in and out of the boat during testing and hadn't put it in place.

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Ajax, I'm surprised that you would prefer masthead, esp for shorthanded use. The fractional combination of smaller headsails and more adjustable main is handy for shorthanded use, as is the enhanced ability to sail under main alone.

 

In this case, it means that you have a bigger boat without an increased foretriangle size. Sailboatdata.com lists the Pearson 30 foretriangle as nearly identical to the Tartan 33.

 

I'm not sure that you need worry about singlehanding difficulties, tho some mods might help. Relocating the primary winches further aft would be one helpful tweak, as would choice of headsail. If the existing sails are shot, a new 110% jib would be very easy to handle, and shouldn't lose much in performance unless you are in v light airs -- when a code 0 would be better than a compromise genoa. If you put a lot of energy into getting your reefing system well-sorted, the result should be a very easily-handled boat.

 

I'm glad you have the pilot berth layout. I like pilot berths.

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Bernie had mounted a pair of spinnaker sheet winches on the coaming back closer to the wheel. They were smaller than the primaries, but usable for single-handeing in moderate weather. None of his winches were self-tailing.

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It sounds like the Pearson and Tartan fore triangles are close in size? Might be able to keep a couple of Pearson headsails if necessary. Changing from hanks to foil tape is easy. Adding a sunbrella cover is more costly, but still cheaper than a new sail.

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...I really, really don't want a boat any bigger than this, because I want to be able to singlehand easily. This boat is probably going to push my boundaries. It's nearly a ton heavier than the Pearson 30.

 

No worries, Ajax! It may be a ton heavier than your Pearson 30, but it is still lighter than my Morgan 30 <_< - and it is almost certainly a much more nimble boat under power, too.

I don't think you'll have any problems at all once you sort out the wheel steering and jib sheets dance. She is a lucky boat to have crossed paths with you. :)

 

As an aside - the other day a "Hotels dot com" ad was on the TV. My wife walked by and said in passing: "..Who IS that guy?" Without a blink, I said matter-of-factly: "Ajax." She said, "..Ohhh" - and went on about her business without further comment.

 

I laughed in silence. :D

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Ajax, nice. Time to update your profile as you add to your fleet, Commodore.

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...I really, really don't want a boat any bigger than this, because I want to be able to singlehand easily. This boat is probably going to push my boundaries. It's nearly a ton heavier than the Pearson 30.

No worries, Ajax! It may be a ton heavier than your Pearson 30, but it is still lighter than my Morgan 30 <_< - and it is almost certainly a much more nimble boat under power, too.

 

Now now, Tom Scott.

 

Don't you go leading Ajax astray into sailing his lovely Tartan around with its spreaders in the water :D;)

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I did compromise on a lot of things that I said "I'll never..."

 

I surrendered the tiller for a wheel, masthead for fractional, hanks for roller furling. I really, really don't want a boat any bigger than this, because I want to be able to singlehand easily. This boat is probably going to push my boundaries. It's nearly a ton heavier than the Pearson 30.

 

Like you, I was one of the few in the marina who still singlehanded and used hanked sails, until knee issues forced me to go with furling. Trust me, you might appreciate it more in a few years.

Congrats on the purchase.

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Tom, Nimble under power depends on the motor. Tartan put the same anemic Universal diesels in their boats in the early 80s just like Catalina. My step-father's Tartan 3000 has an 11HP 5411 (M-15) in his, and that boat only weighs 8,000 lbs and it is barely adequate, but not enough IMO for cruising..We found that you pretty much put the main up and short tacked in and out of upwind channels with the motor.

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You are going to LOVE the boat. I have hull #33 and am in love with her.

 

Best cheap add-on-- a cheap strip of LED lights in the stern area over the engine and transmission. Lights up the area very well. Beckson sells replacement lenses. For a few bucks you can brighten up the whole cabin.

 

Biggest PITA Genoa track bolts on the starboard side are hard to get at.

 

Joining the Yahoo Tartan group is a major help. There are several guys who have owned Tartan 33's since they were new and are a treasure trove of info. Also the Tartan owners website has all the manuals, and polars.

 

Feel free to contact me if you can't find a manual, I have them saved as PDF's.

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OH BOY...another journey!! A chance to live through another refit without it actually having to spend my own money.

 

 

:D

And the chance to tell someone else how to spend their money! :lol:

 

Absolutely! When it comes to telling you how to spend your money we are experts!!!

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Snore, thanks for the tips. My buddy bought #8 in October. Let us know if you ever make it up this way.

 

I'm already appreciating the furler. I'll try to stop being a Luddite.

Tom- Tartan says to sail the boat FLAT!!!

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Tom, Nimble under power depends on the motor. Tartan put the same anemic Universal diesels in their boats in the early 80s just like Catalina. My step-father's Tartan 3000 has an 11HP 5411 (M-15) in his, and that boat only weighs 8,000 lbs and it is barely adequate, but not enough IMO for cruising..We found that you pretty much put the main up and short tacked in and out of upwind channels with the motor.

 

When I say "nimble", I'm talking about being easily maneuvered. I'm not talking about ability to power in any conditions, I'm talking about close quarters maneuvering.

Compared to my boat, I imagine the T-33 turns on a dime, can be backed under some semblance of "control", and stopped from a speed of 2 knots in under 150' (ahem).

 

I believe - just from looking at it - that Ajax is going to have a MUCH more nimble and easy to manage vessel under power than I have. I think that boat will be as easy - or easier - for him to manage than his Pearson 30. I imagine he'll fall in love with the smallish roller furling jib, and the wider beam will help her sail more upright too. To my eye, that T-33 hull looks "right" for both sailing AND powering prowess. :)

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oh yea, at 15 kts the first reef goes in. then you're good till about 45 kts. go figure.

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Ajax,

 

Congratulations and good for you!

 

When you have time... add the Tartan to your "collection" on the bottom of your posts.

 

;-)

 

fs

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I used to think furlers were the enemy of good sailing. But I've recently started to race on a J/105 which has an OD furling jib and my thoughts have... evolved. The OD sail is modestly sized for that boat and if the sail is high quality, it trims nicely and I don't think we could get much more performance out of it, if any, by changing to hanks. It does what a jib is supposed to do. I think the prejudice (like mine, formerly) comes from seeing boats with furlers and trashed out cruising jibs with raggedy sunbrella covers and sun worn jib sheets, things that aren't optimal for sailing. But if you store the jib bagged up out of the sun and just run it up the foil and furl it before you go out, it's really no different from hanks plus you get the benefit of furling and a good jib, without having to hop down the foredeck to rig the thing in the Chesapeake Chop. I think the term of art for what I'm feeling is Strange New Respect... Still not a fan of furling mains though, not for racing anyways.

 

And I'm still stoked for Ajax and his new boat. Looking forward to living vicariously through his adventures...

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The UV protection on my jibs is a clear film. I suppose it's only suitable for laminate sails, but I don't actually know.

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Well done Ajax, boat looks in good shape, i'm looking forward to watching this develop, go for it mate!

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The UV protection on my jibs is a clear film. I suppose it's only suitable for laminate sails, but I don't actually know.

 

You can buy sticky back UV dacron as a suncover. Alternatively, Quantum has a fabric (weathermax??) they can put on that is longer lived than UV dacron and not as heavy ad baggy as Sunbrella.

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Cool project Ajax. If it were me, I would concentrate on exterior things while you are paying for hard standing, anti foul, polish the topsides, prop and rudder bearings etc. the rest can be done when she is back in the water.

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Just came across an email from a guy with T-33 #25 who contacted me about a spinnaker and related gear he had for sale. Unknown condition, but as of 4/2105 was for sale in Annapolis.

 

PM if interested, I will forward contact info.

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Cool project Ajax. If it were me, I would concentrate on exterior things while you are paying for hard standing, anti foul, polish the topsides, prop and rudder bearings etc. the rest can be done when she is back in the water.

 

Speaking of exterior- The prop is trashed looking for an affordable, 2 blade 16RH11 or 15RH12 prop. Fixed or folding, I don't care.

Surely you racers have a fixed prop sitting in a bucket somewhere...

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Cool project Ajax. If it were me, I would concentrate on exterior things while you are paying for hard standing, anti foul, polish the topsides, prop and rudder bearings etc. the rest can be done when she is back in the water.

 

Speaking of exterior- The prop is trashed looking for an affordable, 2 blade 16RH11 or 15RH12 prop. Fixed or folding, I don't care.

Surely you racers have a fixed prop sitting in a bucket somewhere...

 

Shaft size?

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1 inch, sorry.

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1 inch, sorry.

 

We have a marine consignment store here. They have a few props hanging around on the wall - I will look for you. ;)

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I found a prop. Let's review all the facts:

 

Engine: Universal M30, 24hp at 2800 rpm, max.

Busted prop: Martec 2 blade folder: 15RHx12

Tartan specs actually call for: 2 blade, 16RHx11

 

The prop I've found: 15RHx14 2 blade Martec folder, nearly new and going cheap.

How bad is this mismatch, and what would it do to me? Is there any operator behavior I can modify, which will mitigate the mismatch?

 

This would probably only be until winter, when I spring for a Kiwi prop or something. Then, I'll put the Martec back on Craig's for sale.

 

Thoughts?

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WHK- The reason for polishing, is because I don't think the tank has any inspection ports. I'll know more on Thursday.
Maybe I'll just be better off pumping out the entire contents...if I can can get at all of it.
The boat doesn't even have a fuel gauge and may not have a fuel sender port.
Ajax, you really need inspection ports in that fuel tank. Just draining the old fuel won't cut it. If the tank is contaminated, and it probably is, there will be slime that adheres to the tank walls, and in any case, the fuel pick-up pipe generally doesn't reach the bottom so there will be water and crud remaining even if you do pump it out. You need to be able to reach inside and scrub. At the very least you need to be able to push a high-pressure hose to all corners of the tank to blast the crud loose.
Cutting an access port in a tank is usually not that difficult. Fortunately, diesel fuel isn't particularly explosive, so you can do the cutting and drilling on a non-empty tank.

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WHK- The reason for polishing, is because I don't think the tank has any inspection ports. I'll know more on Thursday.
Maybe I'll just be better off pumping out the entire contents...if I can can get at all of it.
The boat doesn't even have a fuel gauge and may not have a fuel sender port.
Ajax, you really need inspection ports in that fuel tank. Just draining the old fuel won't cut it. If the tank is contaminated, and it probably is, there will be slime that adheres to the tank walls, and in any case, the fuel pick-up pipe generally doesn't reach the bottom so there will be water and crud remaining even if you do pump it out. You need to be able to reach inside and scrub. At the very least you need to be able to push a high-pressure hose to all corners of the tank to blast the crud loose.
Cutting an access port in a tank is usually not that difficult. Fortunately, diesel fuel isn't particularly explosive, so you can do the cutting and drilling on a non-empty tank.

 

 

I heartily 2nd that. I learned the hard way, twice....

 

I recently bought a power boat and I cut in ports as one of the first things done before we deliver her.

 

Yes, there was stuff adhered to the tank sides that could have come loose in a seaway.

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I found a prop. Let's review all the facts:

 

Engine: Universal M30, 24hp at 2800 rpm, max.

Busted prop: Martec 2 blade folder: 15RHx12

Tartan specs actually call for: 2 blade, 16RHx11

 

The prop I've found: 15RHx14 2 blade Martec folder, nearly new and going cheap.

How bad is this mismatch, and what would it do to me? Is there any operator behavior I can modify, which will mitigate the mismatch?

 

This would probably only be until winter, when I spring for a Kiwi prop or something. Then, I'll put the Martec back on Craig's for sale.

 

Thoughts?

 

That prop will limit your RPM fairly severely I would think but should do for a summer. If you were going to keep it longer I'd suggest a prop shop and having some twist taken out but that's a bit expensive for an interim measure.

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I think I'll pass and keep looking.

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And if you're interested in that particular one, it's close to me. Let me do a look too, I think I have a older folder hiding somewhere. Not sure of specific size or rotation though.

 

Have a name for the new yacht?

 

Looking for suggestions?

 

I always liked Lazarus for a boat that was brought back from the dead.

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I think "Soylent" would be a good name.

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And if you're interested in that particular one, it's close to me. Let me do a look too, I think I have a older folder hiding somewhere. Not sure of specific size or rotation though.

 

Have a name for the new yacht?

 

Looking for suggestions?

 

I always liked Lazarus for a boat that was brought back from the dead.

 

Have a Martec RH 15x10. PM me your email addy if you might be interested.

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Good choice! Can't wait to follow the progress. Congratulations!

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A cool tip I got taught when I was a kid as an easy way to find out prop rotation. Put the prop on the ground and stand on it, the foot that curves up the blade is the same side as the prop rotation. The one that is arkwardly atop the edge of the blade is the opposite side to the rotation.

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A cool tip I got taught when I was a kid as an easy way to find out prop rotation. Put the prop on the ground and stand on it, the foot that curves up the blade is the same side as the prop rotation. The one that is arkwardly atop the edge of the blade is the opposite side to the rotation.

 

Crap. All these years, I've just been reading the stamp on the prop! :D

 

med_gallery_75266_1131_1501512.jpg

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And if you're interested in that particular one, it's close to me. Let me do a look too, I think I have a older folder hiding somewhere. Not sure of specific size or rotation though.

 

Have a name for the new yacht?

 

Looking for suggestions?

 

I always liked Lazarus for a boat that was brought back from the dead.

 

Have a Martec RH 15x10. PM me your email addy if you might be interested.

 

 

PM sent.

 

A cool tip I got taught when I was a kid as an easy way to find out prop rotation. Put the prop on the ground and stand on it, the foot that curves up the blade is the same side as the prop rotation. The one that is arkwardly atop the edge of the blade is the opposite side to the rotation.

 

Crap. All these years, I've just been reading the stamp on the prop! :D

 

med_gallery_75266_1131_1501512.jpg

 

 

Yes Tom, but as I observed yesterday while digging through piles of props on shelves, not all of them are marked, or the marks are very illegible.

Alc's suggestion is very useful.

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I think I've solved the issue for now. I found a 16RH10P. Proper diameter, under pitched by 1.

 

I *think* that'll increase my RPM's by 200 at WOT and if I really floor it, I might cavitate. I'll lose a little punch in the chop, but it was cheap, it's in great shape, and I can return it for 10 days if someone makes a compelling argument against it. My understanding is that it's better to be a little under than over pitched so as not to lug or overload the engine.

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Yes Tom, but as I observed yesterday while digging through piles of props on shelves, not all of them are marked, or the marks are very illegible.

Alc's suggestion is very useful.

 

 

Sorry - that was my attempt at humor. (..I thought the big smiley would help!)

I agree that it a useful suggestion.

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Gotta use the sarcasm font.

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Gotta use the sarcasm font.

 

:unsure: Example?

 

 

You want examples? What do you think this is, nursery school?

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Gotta use the sarcasm font.

 

:unsure: Example?

 

 

You want examples? What do you think this is, nursery school?

 

Yes.

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I used to think furlers were the enemy of good sailing. But I've recently started to race on a J/105 which has an OD furling jib and my thoughts have... evolved. The OD sail is modestly sized for that boat and if the sail is high quality, it trims nicely and I don't think we could get much more performance out of it, if any, by changing to hanks. It does what a jib is supposed to do. I think the prejudice (like mine, formerly) comes from seeing boats with furlers and trashed out cruising jibs with raggedy sunbrella covers and sun worn jib sheets, things that aren't optimal for sailing. But if you store the jib bagged up out of the sun and just run it up the foil and furl it before you go out, it's really no different from hanks plus you get the benefit of furling and a good jib, without having to hop down the foredeck to rig the thing in the Chesapeake Chop. I think the term of art for what I'm feeling is Strange New Respect... Still not a fan of furling mains though, not for racing anyways.

 

And I'm still stoked for Ajax and his new boat. Looking forward to living vicariously through his adventures...

Aren't furling jibs a different beast from reefing jibs? The really ugly ones are on masthead rigs with huge genoas where people always fly them half rolled.

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I found a prop. Let's review all the facts:

 

Engine: Universal M30, 24hp at 2800 rpm, max.

Busted prop: Martec 2 blade folder: 15RHx12

Tartan specs actually call for: 2 blade, 16RHx11

 

The prop I've found: 15RHx14 2 blade Martec folder, nearly new and going cheap.

How bad is this mismatch, and what would it do to me? Is there any operator behavior I can modify, which will mitigate the mismatch?

 

This would probably only be until winter, when I spring for a Kiwi prop or something. Then, I'll put the Martec back on Craig's for sale.

 

Thoughts?

 

 

That would have worked fine for you.

 

Rule-of-thumb says 1" dia corresponds to 3" pitch (ie decrease the dia 1" then compensate with increase pitch with 3"), with this you would have been somewhat overpowered for the prop, but then I understand it as the Universal is old and some of the horses are probably not there any more. So - fine!

 

If you want to have more control on the prop issue there is much info available on the net, as well as prop calc programs and spreadsheets. Most of these are very easy to use, at the same time you will get some more understanding of engine power and prop selection.

 

When dimensioning a new prop (very close to selecting :) ) one usually first determines the diameter. Main parameter is engine power, but one should also consider available space. When looking at boats on the hard one may observe that many has too large props for the "hole", the prop tip should be ãt least 1" from the hull or any part of the hole.

Then pitch is selected to get optimum use of available hp.

Now, I would argue for going down in dia and increase pitch as this gives some good qualities: prop tip gets further away from solid boat parts and with increased pitch prop walk will increase somewhat - which will increase the manouverability in harbours. This should be exercised with care, another good rule is not to have a larger pitch than dia. (typical numbers are 15-17" dia and pitch 10-11"; varying around that works fine). A high pitch will of course not be optimal on longer motor trips - in that case I would suggest considering sailing.

 

 

I suggest you wait with considering a new prop (as the Kiwi one) until you really have learned the state of your current engine. It is not the best economics to pay full price for a new prop to a 30+ year old engine, as the engines of that time is often said to have a life-time of 25-30 years. Certainly depends heavily on many different facts, but working hours is unfortunately not a major one - a diesel may very well work for 5000 - 10000 hours without any problems, while in a sailboat the use is often less than 50 hours/year.

 

Further on props - 24 hp is in the lower range for a 3-bladed prop (Kiwi is 3-bladed), and to the surprise of many the efficiency of a 3-blade is lower than a 2-blade. A 3-blade have however some advantages: at least 1 " smaller dia (when I switched to a 3-blade I went from 17" to 15") and better "grip" at low speed, as in harbours, which gives much better manouverability.

A 3-bladed folding is about twice the price of a 2-bladed folding.

 

The Kiwi is a feathering prop which has many advantages - but do investigate before you actually buy one, there are many comments around it. A very good thing with Kiwi is the price.

(Again, when I switched prop I was really interested in a Kiwi, but finally I bought another one, a FoF).

 

 

/J

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I had trouble finding a prop calculator online until someone linked a good one yesterday.

 

It seems to indicate that the one I bought will work Ok. Thanks for the good explanation.

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A high pitch will of course not be optimal on longer motor trips - in that case I would suggest considering sailing.

 

 

Hmmmm.... ever been on the Chesapeake in July/August ? Longer motor trips are frequent.

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Given this prop is a "get us out sailing for now" prop, that you are eventually looking for a better replacement, that you like to sail rather than motor, and that the Chesapeake in the summer can be light winded at best, I'd highly recommend looking for a geared folding prop. The drag from a folding prop is less then a feathering one and alot less then a fixed one...which matters when sailing in light air. The gears ensure the prop opens in reverse, even if you have a good bit of forward way on. And with its spade rudder, the 33 ought to still be reasonably easy to back down/maneuver in reverse, even with the scheel keel...

 

Of course, all things on a boat are a compromise, but that's my 2 cents anyway...

 

On the subject of roller furling, my last 2 boats had it, and I mostly raced them. J/109 and S2 9.1. I think their advantages outweigh their disadvantages, even on the race course, esp if your crew is not highly trained and experienced. A little bit of maintenance goes a long way towards keeping them reliable. In both cases, I did not have a UV cover sewn on. I had a jib sock that I could hoist on a separate halyard when I wanted to leave a sail on the furler for a couple days and needed to keep the UV off it. Otherwise I hoisted before going out/dropped and flaked (or rolled) on coming in...For single handing/short handing, a furler seems much easier to me than hanks...

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Given this prop is a "get us out sailing for now" prop, that you are eventually looking for a better replacement, that you like to sail rather than motor, and that the Chesapeake in the summer can be light winded at best, I'd highly recommend looking for a geared folding prop. The drag from a folding prop is less then a feathering one and alot less then a fixed one...which matters when sailing in light air. The gears ensure the prop opens in reverse, even if you have a good bit of forward way on. And with its spade rudder, the 33 ought to still be reasonably easy to back down/maneuver in reverse, even with the scheel keel...

 

Of course, all things on a boat are a compromise, but that's my 2 cents anyway...

 

On the subject of roller furling, my last 2 boats had it, and I mostly raced them. J/109 and S2 9.1. I think their advantages outweigh their disadvantages, even on the race course, esp if your crew is not highly trained and experienced. A little bit of maintenance goes a long way towards keeping them reliable. In both cases, I did not have a UV cover sewn on. I had a jib sock that I could hoist on a separate halyard when I wanted to leave a sail on the furler for a couple days and needed to keep the UV off it. Otherwise I hoisted before going out/dropped and flaked (or rolled) on coming in...For single handing/short handing, a furler seems much easier to me than hanks...

love my varifold 2 blade geared folding prop.

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Given this prop is a "get us out sailing for now" prop, that you are eventually looking for a better replacement, that you like to sail rather than motor, and that the Chesapeake in the summer can be light winded at best, I'd highly recommend looking for a geared folding prop. The drag from a folding prop is less then a feathering one and alot less then a fixed one...which matters when sailing in light air. The gears ensure the prop opens in reverse, even if you have a good bit of forward way on. And with its spade rudder, the 33 ought to still be reasonably easy to back down/maneuver in reverse, even with the scheel keel.....

Re feathering folding: since this is a "temp to see how it works" just mark the props haft so you can set the blades at 12&6 and lock by putting the trans in reverse,) then you minimize the excess drag and minimize the difference between the two options.

 

This of course assumes that there is a place where you can get a decent view of the shaft (and optimally turn it by hand to set it in the right position. Or with as cheap as little wired video cams are you could mount one that you could switch on to see... A display would probably cost more than the camera

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Whoowee!

 

Fun first day of work on the Terminator-33 yesterday:

 

Good things discovered:

- Water tanks have clean-out/inspection ports.
- All seacocks operate smoothly and seem in good shape (but are installed using pre-ABYC methods without backing plates.)
- Fuel tank is in the quarterberth, with GREAT accessibility and a huge, flat surface that would make installing a clean-out port very easy.
- There *is* a fuel gauge. It's on the tank.
- There is only 1/4 tank of fuel, or less. I'm going to use the polishing rig to pump it out into a fuel can or two and give it to a friend for heating oil. For now, I'll use the fuel sender port for access. I'll be able to shine a light into the tank to see how nasty it is, after pumping it out.
- Since the tank is nearly empty, any sludge should be on the bottom, and I'll suck it out as best I can until I can install an inspection port.
- The lazarette is HUGE. I will have no problem accessing the prop shaft stuffing box and steering gear for dropping the rudder.
- The stuffing box is clean and shiny so I'll have no problem getting it apart to replace the stuffing.

Bad/Scary/Weird things discovered:

- The wiring on this boat is a real hack job. Most critical systems work, but it looks like a spider took a huge shit behind the breaker panel. Most secondary systems do not work.
- There is not an "auto" function for the bilge pump on the breaker panel. There was not a "hot" lead run to the pump switch for auto pumping, yet there was a float switch in the bilge.
- I found various bare, "hot" leads around the boat when the main breaker is closed! I dead-headed them until I can pull the wires back or attach them to their intended load.
- The pattern of breakers required to manually operate the electric bilge pump is very strange but may in fact, be factory original.
- The stereo has a major malfunction and was murdering the batteries even when ALL switches (including the battery selector) were set to "off."
- The cockpit drain hoses are dangerously dry rotted. One of them is somehow chafed almost entirely through at the waterline fitting. I am absolutely certain that I would have had water ingress if the boat was in the water.
- Cockpit drains are also old/pre-ABYC, with no valves or seacocks. Just giant nipples glassed to the hull, with hoses double-clamped to them. No backing plates.

Stuff I Did:

- Removed the blades from the broken Martec and reviewed the removal/installation procedure. I need Monel cotter pins ASAP.
- Totally vacuumed out the bilges.
- Installed a new, deep cycle G27 battery. Traced out and repaired the wiring for the electric bilge pump. Removed old 1000gph pump and dead float switch.
- Chased down the title work.
- Formed a written plan of attack that focuses on the hull, engine and all fittings below the waterline, so that I can launch safely and quickly.

It's going to friggin' pour cats and dogs today, so I'm back at work to conserve time off, and will take an extra day off next week. Work starts in earnest on Sunday.

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"Cockpit drains are also old/pre-ABYC, with no valves or seacocks. Just giant nipples glassed to the hull, with hoses double-clamped to them. No backing plates."

 

I am probably starting a shit storm here, but I see no issue with that, as long as there are suitable softwood plugs close at hand for emergencies. When would you ever want to shut off a cockpit drain? FYI, my boat (1983) is exactly the same. I should note that my cockpit drains exit at the waterline, not below, but that is an academic distinction, once underway.

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The seacocks on my cockpit drains are always open.

 

I also had a boat in the past with solid glass tubes from the hull to the cockpit floor.

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Jim

 

With the T-33, if those hoses go in a seaway you are in a world of hurt. Access to them is through a tight lazarette, and then you need to crawl below decks to the rudder post. The starboard one is almost easy, the port requires you to get around the water heater.

 

Note to self---- check drain hoses and schedule replacement.

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"Cockpit drains are also old/pre-ABYC, with no valves or seacocks. Just giant nipples glassed to the hull, with hoses double-clamped to them. No backing plates."

 

I am probably starting a shit storm here, but I see no issue with that, as long as there are suitable softwood plugs close at hand for emergencies. When would you ever want to shut off a cockpit drain? FYI, my boat (1983) is exactly the same. I should note that my cockpit drains exit at the waterline, not below, but that is an academic distinction, once underway.

 

No shit storm from me. The pipe nipples are rock solid. I'm going to do as you suggest, and tie off some wooden bungs and make sure everything is double-clamped with good clamps.

I was only making an observation.

 

But, if you don't have seacocks, you'd better do your due diligence and routinely inspect those hoses for wear or damage.

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"Cockpit drains are also old/pre-ABYC, with no valves or seacocks. Just giant nipples glassed to the hull, with hoses double-clamped to them. No backing plates."

 

I am probably starting a shit storm here, but I see no issue with that, as long as there are suitable softwood plugs close at hand for emergencies. When would you ever want to shut off a cockpit drain? FYI, my boat (1983) is exactly the same. I should note that my cockpit drains exit at the waterline, not below, but that is an academic distinction, once underway.

 

I agree...I would prefer to have less things to go wrong. I pretty convinced that should the day come I have to close ours they'll be seized, not to mention I'm not convinced I could get to them in less than 5 minutes.

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Jim

 

With the T-33, if those hoses go in a seaway you are in a world of hurt. Access to them is through a tight lazarette, and then you need to crawl below decks to the rudder post. The starboard one is almost easy, the port requires you to get around the water heater.

 

Note to self---- check drain hoses and schedule replacement.

So, if access is that tight, closing a seacock may also be problematic? Maybe calls for a well-sited inspection hatch. Anyway, I don't want to derail Ajax's new rescue-boat thread...

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Jim

 

With the T-33, if those hoses go in a seaway you are in a world of hurt. Access to them is through a tight lazarette, and then you need to crawl below decks to the rudder post. The starboard one is almost easy, the port requires you to get around the water heater.

 

Note to self---- check drain hoses and schedule replacement.

So, if access is that tight, closing a seacock may also be problematic? Maybe calls for a well-sited inspection hatch. Anyway, I don't want to derail Ajax's new rescue-boat thread...

 

 

It's a valid topic. Frankly, part of my solution will be to not totally junk up the stbd cockpit locker so that I can quickly drop down into the lazarette and make whatever repair is necessary.

A high capacity bilge pump won't keep the water out, but it might buy a few critical minutes to slow or stop the ingress.

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My friend Bernie worked on his boat alone a lot, and worried about getting down the starboard hatch and having it close and lock on top of him.

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My friend Bernie worked on his boat alone a lot, and worried about getting down the starboard hatch and having it close and lock on top of him.

 

Heh...the thought did occur to me as a shimmied down there yesterday. I made sure to block the hatch and have my cell phone on me.

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My friend Bernie worked on his boat alone a lot, and worried about getting down the starboard hatch and having it close and lock on top of him.

 

Heh...the thought did occur to me as a shimmied down there yesterday. I made sure to block the hatch and have my cell phone on me.

 

You think that is how illuminary bought it?? <_<

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My friend Bernie worked on his boat alone a lot, and worried about getting down the starboard hatch and having it close and lock on top of him.

 

Heh...the thought did occur to me as a shimmied down there yesterday. I made sure to block the hatch and have my cell phone on me.

I have a 1/4" line that is kept on the spring that hold the latch open. Before going down it is tied off between the latch and th Bimini/dodger. Almost idiot proof method of ensuring I don't get locked down there. Not if--- when you need to do a filter change in the ocean, it takes that issue off the mind.

 

That reminds me, does she have an electric lift pump? For $100, makes bleeding much easier.

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Yep, electric lift pump.

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'Zounds, I'm whipped. With the help of way too many people to list, we've accomplished the following:

 

1. Replaced broken Martec propeller with another Martec (Monel cotter pins on order).
2. Replaced all 4 cockpit drain hoses and the "T" to the propane tank locker, inspected exhaust hose.
3. Replaced prop shaft stuffing.
4. Test operated all hull ball valves and inspected their mounts, inspected associated hoses and clamps.
5. Pumped out the fuel tank and swabbed it out.
6. Cleaned out engine raw water strainer.
7. Installed new bilge pump (float switch needs a hot wire, but can pump manually with the flick of a switch).
8. Scrubbed hull clean.
9. Replaced raw water pump impeller.
10. Finished mounting main battery selector switch.
Still to be done prior to launch:
11. Change oil and filter (my vacuum extractor broke or it would have been done already).
11. Drop rudder and replace bearings (coordinate with yard on reinstall/launch day).
12. Paint anti-foul on hull.
13. Buff and wax green topsides.
13. Pull new jib and main halyards.
Some photos of the phuquery:
Fuel tank after being pumped down. I managed to swab out some of the remaining goobers.
vo9atf.jpg
This is what all the cockpit drain hoses looked like. All of them, including the "T" for the propane locker:
x43axs.jpg
16 inch Martec installed. This is the size that Tartan specs all for. The hand model is illustrating the distance from the tips to the hull.
Hopefully this is adequate...
dfdlvt.jpg
In the event that the Martec is to "wrong" to work well, I found a 15 inch, fixed, Michigan Sailor in one of the lockers. :(
I wish I'd dug a little deeper around the boat before running out to buy a replacement prop. However, this prop also does not agree with Tartan specs. It's 15X11P. The prop should either be 16X11P so I'm not sure how it got onto the boat. Whatever, I'm over it for now.
Still got plenty of work to do by the end of the month. It won't stop raining, my lawn is knee-high, my boat is infested with hornets and literally being circled by vultures in the boat yard. It's gloomy and creepy and I want OUT.

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Impressive progress, Ajax. You'll be finished in time for some great spring sailing.

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My friend Bernie worked on his boat alone a lot, and worried about getting down the starboard hatch and having it close and lock on top of him.

 

Heh...the thought did occur to me as a shimmied down there yesterday. I made sure to block the hatch and have my cell phone on me.

 

I once had the hatch blow shut just as I was coming out, slammed on my arm. Now I tie it open.

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My friend Bernie worked on his boat alone a lot, and worried about getting down the starboard hatch and having it close and lock on top of him.

 

Heh...the thought did occur to me as a shimmied down there yesterday. I made sure to block the hatch and have my cell phone on me.

I once had the hatch blow shut just as I was coming out, slammed on my arm. Now I tie it open.

Similar experience. Ended up attaching a shock cord loop and hook to the underside of the hatch. Just the right length to slip over the primary winch when the lid was open.

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My friend Bernie worked on his boat alone a lot, and worried about getting down the starboard hatch and having it close and lock on top of him.

Heh...the thought did occur to me as a shimmied down there yesterday. I made sure to block the hatch and have my cell phone on me.

I once had the hatch blow shut just as I was coming out, slammed on my arm. Now I tie it open.

Similar experience. Ended up attaching a shock cord loop and hook to the underside of the hatch. Just the right length to slip over the primary winch when the lid was open.

 

 

Ah, yes. I have a bungie cord with a hook fastened to the lifelines for that very purpose.

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Yeah, I'd better quit tempting fate and rig up something.

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Tip clearance looks good Ajax. Should be 10% of prop diameter minimum to ease hull excitation. 15 percent is better providing you can maintain the proper propeller diameter.

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You could also move the hasp to be on the cockpit wall and the staple/latch portion to the hatch. That way when the hatch slams shut the hasp won't slam over the staple. The line around the winch is probably less work though and just about as effective.

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You could also move the hasp to be on the cockpit wall and the staple/latch portion to the hatch. That way when the hatch slams shut the hasp won't slam over the staple. The line around the winch is probably less work though and just about as effective.

 

That's the way C&C set it up. Still hurts when it slams down on you, but at least you don't get locked in.

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You could also move the hasp to be on the cockpit wall and the staple/latch portion to the hatch. That way when the hatch slams shut the hasp won't slam over the staple. The line around the winch is probably less work though and just about as effective.

 

That's the way C&C set it up. Still hurts when it slams down on you, but at least you don't get locked in.

 

You could also install a gas strut to hold the hatch open. Verrah nice

15002_output.jpg?t=1189699593

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You could also move the hasp to be on the cockpit wall and the staple/latch portion to the hatch. That way when the hatch slams shut the hasp won't slam over the staple. The line around the winch is probably less work though and just about as effective.

 

That's the way C&C set it up. Still hurts when it slams down on you, but at least you don't get locked in.

You could also install a gas strut to hold the hatch open. Verrah nice

15002_output.jpg?t=1189699593

Gee that's a great idea. (Sarcastic font see post 89)

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You could also move the hasp to be on the cockpit wall and the staple/latch portion to the hatch. That way when the hatch slams shut the hasp won't slam over the staple. The line around the winch is probably less work though and just about as effective.

That's the way C&C set it up. Still hurts when it slams down on you, but at least you don't get locked in.

You could also install a gas strut to hold the hatch open. Verrah nice

15002_output.jpg?t=1189699593

86 the wood trim... More maintenance work.

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You could also move the hasp to be on the cockpit wall and the staple/latch portion to the hatch. That way when the hatch slams shut the hasp won't slam over the staple. The line around the winch is probably less work though and just about as effective.

That's the way C&C set it up. Still hurts when it slams down on you, but at least you don't get locked in.

You could also install a gas strut to hold the hatch open. Verrah nice 15002_output.jpg?t=1189699593
Gee that's a great idea. (Sarcastic font see post 89)
Dooh!! Facepalm.

 

Great minds, and all that??

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You could also move the hasp to be on the cockpit wall and the staple/latch portion to the hatch. That way when the hatch slams shut the hasp won't slam over the staple. The line around the winch is probably less work though and just about as effective.

That's the way C&C set it up. Still hurts when it slams down on you, but at least you don't get locked in.

You could also install a gas strut to hold the hatch open. Verrah nice 15002_output.jpg?t=1189699593
Gee that's a great idea. (Sarcastic font see post 89)
Dooh!! Facepalm.

 

Great minds, and all that??

 

And ours too.

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Ajax,

 

I think you're going about this rescue entirely too quickly. ;)

 

Nonetheless, pretty cool and I'll be keeping an eye on this thread!

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Ajax,

 

I think you're going about this rescue entirely too quickly. ;)

 

Nonetheless, pretty cool and I'll be keeping an eye on this thread!

The rudder was disconnected today and lowered. The yard will lift the boat off of it tomorrow. I'm not allowed to dig a hole.

I'll have rudder bearings no later than Wednesday, next week. We'll paint anti-foul and buff out the topsides this weekend.

 

I hope to launch by next Friday.

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