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Ajax, thanks for the response. I did not know about the stbd settee double, I need to get aboard a T33 for a thorough look.  You look pretty thin in your avatar, btw....

Crash, I am still on the southern bay. Just joined HYC this spring.  I agree that the 33R could be the best combo but they seem very rare. I'm also trying to keep the draft under 6' so I can get down the ICW without too much stress. Another alternative is the T31, which looks pretty nice but a bit pricey for its size/age. 

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Only a handful of "R" models were made out of the entire run of 215 boats. I am quite surprised at the number of '33's I've seen on the bay. I thought most of them would be on the Great Lakes. I saw a for sale ad for a '33 at EYC. Let me know if you want the contact info.

If you'd like to come up to the Annapolis area to get a look at my boat, I'm happy to entertain you. In fact, I have a friend in St. Mary's county with #008, which is closer to you, who might be willing to show you his boat.

As Bob P. says, there's no substitute for draft, but the '33 with the Scheel keel does point better than I expected, especially in a nice breeze. You won't hate it.

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I agree, the 33R was kinda rare...nice when you can find one though.  What about a 34-2?  Which was a 33R with a slightly updated interior, and the aft overhang pulled out some...also comes with a shoal draft version (4'6')

http://www.yachtworld.com/boats/1985/Tartan-34-2-2937923/Galesville/MD/United-States#.WcKPUdVSw0Q

http://www.sailboatdata.com/viewrecord.asp?class_id=1857

My issue with the 31 is Tim Jackett's crazy angled bulkheads.  I think they actually detract from space and usability, esp in boats under 35 feet or so..

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Ajax, I may be up in your neck of the woods early next week and would be happy to meet up with you. If that doesn't work, I'm hoping to get back for the boat show. Thanks for the offer. 

Crash, the angles do look weird in plan view. I need to get on one to see how it works in the flesh.  There's one up in Deltaville I'm going to go checkout  

Slick, how's the exterior of the Piper different?  I thought there were only exterior changes  

 

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I was aboard a T31 under power and thought it was a very nice boat. I was also aboard a larger Tartan, forget the model, and found the steepness of the companionway ladder combined with a smallish hatch make it awkward to get up and, especially, down.

As noted, you gotta see for yourself.

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O25, I just dug a bit deeper and I guess I was mistaken that they were much different. The drawings on SailboatData make them look different, but pictures on YW don't show much difference. Per a PS review; 

Aside from adding a sailaway package, which includes North sails, Harken furling gear and lazy jacks, and Autohelm ST 50 instruments, the Piper offers a revised interior layout and a new shoal draft keel. The Piper also carries slightly less ballast with the same hull and rig; otherwise, the two versions are the same.

I remember seeing a T31 Piper at a marina across from a boat I used to race and remember how nice they looked. 

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Ok, this water heater isn't getting out of the boat except by the cockpit locker hatch.

Innocent Bystander asked if the exterior metal shell of the water heater could be removed, thereby making it smaller and eliminate the need for a Sawz-all. I thought this was an excellent idea. The unit is a very old Raritan, upright cylinder. Has anyone ever messed with one of these?

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My Hunter 37 Cutter had one of those old Raritans - six gallon, if I recall - under the cockpit sole, aft of the engine. The bottom was rusted out so the cladding (sheet metal with about 1" of fiberglass insulation) was easy to pull off. In theory, you remove the top and then the inner tank comes out, but mine was so rusty the sides almost fell off of their own accord. Removing the cladding and insulation would gain you a couple of inches more clearance but I was able to get mine out intact through the cockpit locker after removing some plywood engine room partitions. Try the tape measure first, then resort to the Sawzall if required...(you won't saw up the inner tank easily - its very robust).

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My locker opening lip has nice arc shape cut in it where a sliver was temporarily removed to enlarge the lip to fit the water tank.  The sliver is now reattached to a piece of wood, also attached to the lip that remained.  Its all covered by the seat when closed.

The water tank is amazing though. Having a hot stand-up shower on board is a game changer.  And having a long hot shower over *four* hours after shutting the engine off really surprised me last weekend.  Didn't think six little gallons would stay hot that long or give that long of a shower.

Even if you have to cut a big circle out of your cockpit floor and nail a sheet of plywood and duct tape over the hole, the tank is so worth it this time of year.

 

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Thanks for the insight, exactly what I was looking for.

The damned ice box compressor is mounted on top of the water heater. It's an A-B Cold Machine, no doubt using R-12. I don't want to vent the system. It's sitting on a wooden disk the size of the top of the water heater.

I think the plan is to suspend the wood disk from the underside of the cockpit, which will allow me to remove the water heater underneath. Once I slip the water heater out, I can remove the cladding and take some measurements.

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1 minute ago, debonAir said:

My locker opening lip has nice arc shape cut in it where a sliver was temporarily removed to enlarge the lip to fit the water tank.  The sliver is now reattached to a piece of wood, also attached to the lip that remained.  Its all covered by the seat when closed.

The water tank is amazing though. Having a hot stand-up shower on board is a game changer.  And having a long hot shower over *four* hours after shutting the engine off really surprised me last weekend.  Didn't think six little gallons would stay hot that long or give that long of a shower.

Even if you have to cut a big circle out of your cockpit floor and nail a sheet of plywood and duct tape over the hole, the tank is so worth it this time of year.

 

Yeah, I poo-poo'd the concept of hot, pressurized water when I bought the boat. The first season, I didn't even use it. This season I used it and became totally addicted. Part of the reason for that, is because it's been a cool, wet summer for the Chesapeake. My heater kept the water hot or at least warm, until the next morning!  Fantastic for washing up the breakfast dishes and a nice, warm shower afterwards.

There's no point in asking for recommendations for a replacement because the answer is: "Whatever fits through the locker hatch."

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I wonder how many of us have now looked at our water heaters wondering what it would take to get it out.

 

I know I have.

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7 hours ago, Ajax said:

Yeah, I poo-poo'd the concept of hot, pressurized water when I bought the boat. The first season, I didn't even use it. This season I used it and became totally addicted. Part of the reason for that, is because it's been a cool, wet summer for the Chesapeake. My heater kept the water hot or at least warm, until the next morning!  Fantastic for washing up the breakfast dishes and a nice, warm shower afterwards.

There's no point in asking for recommendations for a replacement because the answer is: "Whatever fits through the locker hatch."

I was sold when diving off a friends boat in the San Juans in February.  Climb up on the swim platform, and just shove that transom-mounted auxiliary shower nozzle right down inside my wetsuit.  Ahhhhh!  

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On 9/22/2017 at 6:57 AM, Ajax said:

Ok, this water heater isn't getting out of the boat except by the cockpit locker hatch.

Innocent Bystander asked if the exterior metal shell of the water heater could be removed, thereby making it smaller and eliminate the need for a Sawz-all. I thought this was an excellent idea. The unit is a very old Raritan, upright cylinder. Has anyone ever messed with one of these?

I bought T33 number 47 and have been fixing her up since then.  I took the insulation wrap off the hot water tank and cut up the tank with an angle grinder and cut off blade.  It wasn't pretty but it wasn't that bad.  The tank is pretty heavy steel though and there are fittings to be avoided.  My fridge unit was located elsewhere.  Between the HW tank and old alchy stove/oven I figure I've lightened ship by about 150 lbs. of ugly rusty stuff I don't intend to replace.

Have been tracking your efforts with Alacrity and looks like I'm on a parallel track, only a year behind you.  Thanks much for sharing your story - it's given me the inspiration to tackle my project.

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+1 on the transom shower. They're not just for cold water/weather, they're a great place to shampoo, get the mud off the dog, etc. When you're done, you just hose it all off the boat. The inside of the boat stays dry, you don't have a bunch of crap in your bilge or shower sump, etc. It's also really efficient if you get one of those push button sprayers. I'd sooner put a shower at the transom than one inside the boat.

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I remember sailing in the 80s and the feeling of a lack of an available shower.

A transom shower with hot water changed all that. Go for a swim, wash the salt off. Love it.

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16 hours ago, bugeye said:

I bought T33 number 47 and have been fixing her up since then.  I took the insulation wrap off the hot water tank and cut up the tank with an angle grinder and cut off blade.  It wasn't pretty but it wasn't that bad.  The tank is pretty heavy steel though and there are fittings to be avoided.  My fridge unit was located elsewhere.  Between the HW tank and old alchy stove/oven I figure I've lightened ship by about 150 lbs. of ugly rusty stuff I don't intend to replace.

Have been tracking your efforts with Alacrity and looks like I'm on a parallel track, only a year behind you.  Thanks much for sharing your story - it's given me the inspiration to tackle my project.

Dude, right on!  I think we're close to have a class for OD racing!

Was your water heater a Raritan, white cylinder? Just wondering if I'm dealing with the same thing.

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2 hours ago, Ajax said:

Dude, right on!  I think we're close to have a class for OD racing!

Was your water heater a Raritan, white cylinder? Just wondering if I'm dealing with the same thing.

I remember it was the big name in HW tanks for boats this size and the only one that comes to mind is Raritan.  Didn't pay much attention to that since I had no plan to replace it.  As I recall it was still about 2 inches too big for the cockpit hatch after I got the wrap off (yes it was a white - and rust - cylinder).  I'd bet yours is the same.

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The T-33 at the dock doesn't have curb appeal for me; not ugly, just not my taste, which runs to plasticky racer cruisers with little brightwork, but Ajax's boat looks really nice underway.  The T-33 strikes me as a pretty boat under sail. 

There is a nice looking T-33 in good shape at my marina just north of Naptown, or at least there was as of the start of the year (other side of the dock, sorry!).  If you don't know the owner, I can leave a note for you Ajax, if you're trying to get a fleet together.  Don't know the guy but chatted with him a couple times over the last few years. 

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I replaced the leather wheel wrap and put some turk's head knots to mark the rudder positions. Not exactly earth-shattering upgrades.

I'm going on a long weekend cruise with friends this weekend. We do this each year, so I didn't want to tear into any major projects until after this cruise.  I'm looking to get started in November.

On that note, does anyone have a favorite flavor of water heater, or have advice on which ones to avoid?  The Raritan replacement is outrageously expensive and I don't see anything that makes it superior to any other brand or model.  I don't need large capacity and I don't need electrical heating, just HX heating from the engine.  It *must* fit through the cockpit locker which I think is 17". I need to re-measure and confirm.

This Torrid rectangle looks like a good candidate:

http://www.defender.com/product.jsp?path=-1&id=1894208

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Looks good. Price and dimensions are certainly right. 

Almost forgot to post my pretty wheel...

wheel.jpg

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Great. Now all I need is "Panope" to fly out here and help me install a new cabin sole. ;)

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6 hours ago, monsoon said:

I replaced my water heater last year.  Took out what I put in:

http://www.defender.com/product.jsp?name=seaward-marine-water-heater-6-gallon&path=-1|51|2234308|2234311&id=2092235

First one lasted 25 years.  Keeps water hot for almost a day.

That looks like the one that was in my old Hunter - 35 years and worked fine.

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New happenings in the T-33.

The cabin sole was pretty rotten when I bought the boat and two seasons of tip-toeing on it have made it worse. It was finally time to do something.

I bought a sheet of 3/4" marine ply with a teak and holly face. I called upon the friend who urged me to buy the boat and requested his assistance with the project since he's good with wood and fabrication.  We demolished the port side and made the replacement pieces and dry fit them this past Sunday.

The sole is basically 4 rectangles- 2 bilge boards and port and stbd rectangles...except that the port side has an odd little triangular section appended to it at the forward end, and both main sections curve to follow the hull at the fwd ends. This makes things very 3-dimensional.  At the fwd port side at the threshold to the head, the odd little triangular appendage follows the curve of the hull. In order to accomplish this, Tartan built up a bedding of resin filler...poly or vinylester, I don't know which. This shit was almost half an inch thick and there was NO way we were going to sand, grind or chisel that shit out.

I bought an electric hand planer and we did what Tartan originally did to the wood- We shaved that area down to about 1/2".  We then cut kerfs into the back side with the intention that the wood would conform to the curve of the hull. The wood refused to budge without some alarming cracking noises. We could not know if the teak and holly face would break and be ruined, so we stopped. We opted to simply cut the little triangle off with a thin bladed coping saw. All this means, is that this small triangle will have (very) slightly more abrupt angle than the original curve. The thinned section of plywood will rest on the same bed of filler that Tartan put in place.

The original construction was 1/2" plywood with 1/4" luan faced with teak and holly glued down onto that. This means there were no visible screwheads or bungs.  I opted to just install 3/4" ply with the teak and holly face and install bungs.  A 4'X8' sheet was $300 and I don't mind saying that we were pretty nervous making the first cuts.

luan.jpg

barefloors.jpg

dryfit.jpg

epoxytriangle.jpg

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4 hours ago, Innocent Bystander said:

Ajax,

why don’t you fasten them with these?  Remove at will, no fighting with bungs and you know you will want to access under the floorboards on occasion. 

http://www.pyiinc.com/floor-anchors.html#

 

'cause they are bejeezus expensive?  I'd love those in my boat.  At a guess my sole has 80 screws holding it down, that's an easy $800 in hardware... your mileage may vary...

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Nice work Ajax.  I refinished my cabin sole a couple of years ago and still smile every time I go below. 

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1 hour ago, sculpin said:

'cause they are bejeezus expensive?  I'd love those in my boat.  At a guess my sole has 80 screws holding it down, that's an easy $800 in hardware... your mileage may vary...

80 screws?  Wow.  How many individual sections do you have? 

It looks like Ajax has two long rectangles.  I'd think he'd get away with a fastener along each edge where there is a floor, so what maybe 12 fasteners per panel?  Those ones IB showed are slick.  I'd use 'em...

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I didn't want to deal with bungs the last time I refinished my sole. I ended up putting in square drive SS screws and countersunk them so they were flush. The look isn't for everyone, but I like it. 

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51 minutes ago, Crash said:

80 screws?  Wow.  How many individual sections do you have? 

It looks like Ajax has two long rectangles.  I'd think he'd get away with a fastener along each edge where there is a floor, so what maybe 12 fasteners per panel?  Those ones IB showed are slick.  I'd use 'em...

I have the same boat. Nine floor panels, easily 80 screws. All teak and holly is continuous stripe through the boat, which really sucks plywood. I'd hate to have to replace it nicely.

I normally don't keep major parts of the floor screwed down, there's nothing useful underneath but it's nice to be able to sponge out the bilge everywhere. Two screws would hold each of them in most conditions.

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No, nothing is screwed down yet.  That was just a dry fit. I need to apply penetrating epoxy to the underside and edges, then put on some coats of varnish. A final coat of varnish will be applied once the sole is in place.

Yes, I considered those cool fasteners but it turns out that they will not work.  The stringers/floors are not what they appear. They are not nearly as thick as how they look in the photos. What you are seeing, is a lip folded over.  The lip (in my opinion) is not wide or thick enough to install those floor anchors.

The best I can do, is replace in kind with screws.

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3 hours ago, Ajax said:

No, nothing is screwed down yet.  That was just a dry fit. I need to apply penetrating epoxy to the underside and edges, then put on some coats of varnish. A final coat of varnish will be applied once the sole is in place.

Yes, I considered those cool fasteners but it turns out that they will not work.  The stringers/floors are not what they appear. They are not nearly as thick as how they look in the photos. What you are seeing, is a lip folded over.  The lip (in my opinion) is not wide or thick enough to install those floor anchors.

The best I can do, is replace in kind with screws.

Can you glue cleats (small blocks of wood) under the fold to provide enough surface area?

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4 hours ago, Ajax said:

 I need to apply penetrating epoxy to the underside and edges, then put on some coats of varnish. A final coat of varnish will be applied once the sole is in place.

 

Yes, yes you do. well you don't need to, but you will get about three times the life from them if you do.  Good on you.  I should have known you'd do it right.

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2 hours ago, Crash said:

Can you glue cleats (small blocks of wood) under the fold to provide enough surface area?

These seem to be hand rolled, like Cuban cigars. Some of them are open enough to do this and some of them are nearly completely rolled over and you can't get anything into them.

I don't have nearly as many screws holding my sole down as a C&C 35 Mk III.  It was two screws per stringer for 3 stringers, each. No big deal.  I have considered saying "F- it" and just screwing down flush to the wood and leaving the heads exposed but the bungs are only a little more work so... why not?

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48 minutes ago, Nettles said:

Yes, yes you do. well you don't need to, but you will get about three times the life from them if you do.  Good on you.  I should have known you'd do it right.

Yeah, I ain't doing this twice in my lifetime.

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5 hours ago, Ajax said:

These seem to be hand rolled, like Cuban cigars. Some of them are open enough to do this and some of them are nearly completely rolled over and you can't get anything into them.

I don't have nearly as many screws holding my sole down as a C&C 35 Mk III.  It was two screws per stringer for 3 stringers, each. No big deal.  I have considered saying "F- it" and just screwing down flush to the wood and leaving the heads exposed but the bungs are only a little more work so... why not?

I used bronze screws and sank them flush - they were nearly invisible but made it very easy to unscrew the sole pieces - you WILL need to do this at some point and drilling out plugs will almost certainly damage the sole - will have to touch up the varnish at a bare minimum.

See if you can find the screws. ;)

 

g13g2.JPG

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Look at it this way - if you hate it later you can counterbore the screw holes and plug them.

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Ajax, I'm with Sloop on this.  Go bronze and they nearly disappear.  Besides, fasteners you can remove (for servicing/access) says to me, here's a real sailor.  Bungs/no easy access says "Yachty guy" to me  ; )

 

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1 hour ago, SloopJonB said:

Look at it this way - if you hate it later you can counterbore the screw holes and plug them.

Make sure the screws line up properly. The slightly larger quadrant on a Philips is supposed to point north. Robertsons should be on the diagonal. Slotted screws should be in the metal recycling bin.

 

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10 hours ago, SloopJonB said:

Look at it this way - if you hate it later you can counterbore the screw holes and plug them.

That's a very good point.

 

8 hours ago, Ishmael said:

Make sure the screws line up properly. The slightly larger quadrant on a Philips is supposed to point north. Robertsons should be on the diagonal. Slotted screws should be in the metal recycling bin.

 

Slotted screws- Never.   Where the hell does one find bronze Robertson screws?   Come to think of it, I've only ever seen slotted screws in bronze.  I'm sure I could find anything I want in stainless, but you guys are right that bronze would hide much better and look much better when you actually do see them.

Anyone got a source?

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are robertson and square drive exactly the same? something makes me think there are subtle differences like square drive has a flat bottom and robertson has a bit of a point...or something? 

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I thought "Square Drive" was just the American name for Robertson - can't call things by their proper name if the are NIH after all.

True Robertson heads are only square in plan - they actually taper in a little to the bottom of the socket - that's what holds them on the screwdriver tip without magnetism.

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https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_screw_drives

 

I seem to remember buying a robertson bit that seemed a bit different and not working as well, hence my comment.  according to the wiki though there is only one square drive whether you call it a robertson or a square drive.  i notice however their is the philips and a variation called the frearson so...learned something.

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Good bronze screws are pretty hard - cheap ones are so soft you can't use an electric driver or you'll twist the head off.

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1 hour ago, SloopJonB said:

Good bronze screws are pretty hard - cheap ones are so soft you can't use an electric driver or you'll twist the head off.

I think part of the problem is the square drive itself. With bronze, I kinda like Philips head because the driver will cam out before you torque the head off. I also prefer the look of the Philips.

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2 hours ago, Ishmael said:

I think part of the problem is the square drive itself. With bronze, I kinda like Philips head because the driver will cam out before you torque the head off. I also prefer the look of the Philips.

Now you've done it, Ish. They're gonna run you out of the country.

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Ish is right about looks. For applications where the fastener head is very visible - cleats, track, holey rail and the like, I much prefer Phillips. In those applications Robertsons look sort of crude to my eye.

Even better are Allen heads.

For wood screws and the like there is no substitute for Robertsons though.

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12 minutes ago, SloopJonB said:

Ish is right about looks. For applications where the fastener head is very visible - cleats, track, holey rail and the like, I much prefer Phillips. In those applications Robertsons look sort of crude to my eye.

Even better are Allen heads.

For wood screws and the like there is no substitute for Robertsons though.

If I have to drive a thousand deck screws, make mine Robertsons.

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Face it-  The screw heads are going to tarnish and fill with dirt and grime anyway. After a time, you won't be able to tell if they're Robertson or JIS.

I'm fine with ordering the Robertsons but they aren't common down here so I'll want a bit for my electric driver and a hand tool to remove them manually to carry onboard the boat. My cold weather formula penetrating epoxy is in the mail so I'll get started on that soon enough.

I'm vacillating over which varnish to use. In this instance, durability and appearance trump ease of application. What do you guys like for a varnish?  Do you prefer clear or some sort of tint?  Do I really need to strain the stuff through a cheese cloth?

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5 minutes ago, Ajax said:

Face it-  The screw heads are going to tarnish and fill with dirt and grime anyway. After a time, you won't be able to tell if they're Robertson or JIS.

I'm fine with ordering the Robertsons but they aren't common down here so I'll want a bit for my electric driver and a hand tool to remove them manually to carry onboard the boat. My cold weather formula penetrating epoxy is in the mail so I'll get started on that soon enough.

I'm vacillating over which varnish to use. In this instance, durability and appearance trump ease of application. What do you guys like for a varnish?  Do you prefer clear or some sort of tint?  Do I really need to strain the stuff through a cheese cloth?

Whatever varnish is on sale. On the sole, I don't think much matters except thickness. Spar varnish isn't that hard and with just a little foot traffic, the surface has enough 'tooth', we don't find it slippery. I think that works well on a boat sole(best grip is no finish, of course). 

 

I use gloss on these sole boards back in 2000. We ran a family of four, lot's of extra kids, and two or three dogs over them every season. 

 

I took this photo a couple years ago. You can see the gloss is now matt (in fact, they turned matt very quickly from traffic). Although they could use some cleaning, the coating is still fully protecting the teak and holly. You just wipe down with a wet towel to clean them, they are low maintenance. They don't need re-coating, yet. It looks like they are going to go 20 years on the 6 or 7 coats of spar varnish before there is any wear to bare wood.

 

I don't use epoxy under any of my varnish work but I did coat the edges and backs with a few coats of varnish. 

949-saloon-aft-2-1-of-1-jpg.144281

I just used clear, no stain, thinned the first coat, etc. These sole boards were unfinished and dirty, in 2000. I sanded to clean them up but old stains remained(it's almost impossible to completely remove deep water stains in wood). 

 

As long as you just pour an amount of needed varnish out of the can, and reseal, you shouldn't need to strain it. Use the throw away paper strainer cones, if you need to strain. 

 

The best trick you can use for the best results with the least effort, is roll and tip the varnish onto the floor boards, in a warm not too dusty space. Use 4 or 6" foam rollers and a small pan. Tip the varnish off with a foam brush. You'll be amazed how they come out and this will save time as well. 

 

 

 

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I'm no sort of craftsman, so take this at face value. For varnish, I'd go down to the local paint store and ask them for the toughest, no-scratch floor varnish they have.

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Ha! Kris, I should have asked you from the start, being a wood boat owner.

Yes, I figured the gloss would wear down pretty quickly so I wasn't too worried about non-skid. I'm concerned about having no UV protection if I use an ordinary home floor varnish, though it might be very hard curing. Sure, it's down in the cabin but I have many ports and a hatch in the main cabin that let in plenty of light. In fact, I wonder if I'd get odd looking UV burned squares on the sole over time from being parked in the slip.

All I have is a thin, teak and holly veneer on this plywood so it really needs to be well protected. I figure at least 8 coats.  I *still* do not understand the tipping part of rolling and tipping. Whenever I try it, all it get are drag marks from the brush. I have some scrap, so I can try it again though.

I'm only epoxying the undersides and edges. I'm not interested in performing an in-depth compatibility study between epoxies and varnishes to ensure I don't have any odd problems laying varnish over epoxy.  The old sole lasted 35 years with just varnish on top and no epoxy on the bottom, so I think I'll be ok on that count.

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1 hour ago, Ajax said:

Ha! Kris, I should have asked you from the start, being a wood boat owner.

Yes, I figured the gloss would wear down pretty quickly so I wasn't too worried about non-skid. I'm concerned about having no UV protection if I use an ordinary home floor varnish, though it might be very hard curing. Sure, it's down in the cabin but I have many ports and a hatch in the main cabin that let in plenty of light. In fact, I wonder if I'd get odd looking UV burned squares on the sole over time from being parked in the slip.

All I have is a thin, teak and holly veneer on this plywood so it really needs to be well protected. I figure at least 8 coats.  I *still* do not understand the tipping part of rolling and tipping. Whenever I try it, all it get are drag marks from the brush. I have some scrap, so I can try it again though.

I'm only epoxying the undersides and edges. I'm not interested in performing an in-depth compatibility study between epoxies and varnishes to ensure I don't have any odd problems laying varnish over epoxy.  The old sole lasted 35 years with just varnish on top and no epoxy on the bottom, so I think I'll be ok on that count.

I just meant buy a good quality spar varnish(doesn't need to be the most expensive), which will have UV protection. 

 

All the roll and tip does for you, is get an even amount of varnish on the boards. The roller does the distributing, the brush just smooths out the air bubbles(just an even light brushing-quick). It's way simpler than it sounds. You just can't(at least I can't) distribute an even coat of varnish (especially on a sole board) with a brush alone as well as with a roller. 

 

I roll and tip areas that I didn't use to do. I get a much better finish - even full coverage - in less time and coats than I ever got with a brush alone. I did these coamings with a 4" roller and tipped with a brush. Once the tape is down, it cuts application time in half. I only got 5 coats of varnish on over a couple coats of sealer(you can skip this step) before I launched. No problem with 5 months exposure. I'll get a couple more coats on this spring and these should last 10+ years with an annual coat. 

cockpit-coamings-jpg.144296

 

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Ajax. I used epifanes wood finish gloss to build coats, without needing to sand between them and then used epifanes rubbed effect varnish to top it off. The rubbed effect product needs sanding between coats. 

See this video for a nice explanation on how to do the rolling and tipping for varnish. 

I ended up buying a really expensive brush to do the last few coats of tipping with, but had such good luck with the foam brush I was using that the fancy brush is still in the packaging. 

Biggest issues for me was maintaining an even temperature in my shop. If I wasn't careful with it, I ended up having some curtains in my last few coats. I was reusing the sole that came with the boat when we bought it, so it already had a bunch of dings and some stains, and people were going to walk on it anyway, so I wasn't going for a perfect result, but I'm pretty happy with how it turned out.

The wood finish gloss didn't smell too bad, but the rubbed effect stuff I needed a mask for.  

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Spar varnish is all about UV protection - hence the "spar" in the name.

For a cabin sole use gymnasium  or bowling alley varnish.

Floor varnish in other words.

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12 hours ago, Ajax said:

Face it-  The screw heads are going to tarnish and fill with dirt and grime anyway. After a time, you won't be able to tell if they're Robertson or JIS.

I'm fine with ordering the Robertsons but they aren't common down here so I'll want a bit for my electric driver and a hand tool to remove them manually to carry onboard the boat. My cold weather formula penetrating epoxy is in the mail so I'll get started on that soon enough.

I'm vacillating over which varnish to use. In this instance, durability and appearance trump ease of application. What do you guys like for a varnish?  Do you prefer clear or some sort of tint?  Do I really need to strain the stuff through a cheese cloth?

My T33 manual says that the sole was varnished with Glidden #10 polyurethane.

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Ok, I'm close to selecting a finish... I think.

I guess I'm convinced that an interior floor varnish is ok, despite the lack of UV protection because it's down inside the cabin and I would like the more durable finish.  I'm looking at Varathane floor finish. There is an "amber" water based satin and a clear, oil based satin.

I know this will seem like a dumb question, but is it a bad idea to use the water based finish on the boat?  Is the water based varnish vulnerable to water after it has dried?

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55 minutes ago, Ajax said:

Ok, I'm close to selecting a finish... I think.

I guess I'm convinced that an interior floor varnish is ok, despite the lack of UV protection because it's down inside the cabin and I would like the more durable finish.  I'm looking at Varathane floor finish. There is an "amber" water based satin and a clear, oil based satin.

I know this will seem like a dumb question, but is it a bad idea to use the water based finish on the boat?  Is the water based varnish vulnerable to water after it has dried?

Start, as you mentioned by sealing the sides. Coat sole with several coats of gloss, then finish with clear satin. It'll look great for a long time.

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1 hour ago, monsoon said:

Start, as you mentioned by sealing the sides. Coat sole with several coats of gloss, then finish with clear satin. It'll look great for a long time.

Agreed - build your coat with the gloss regardless, then finish with your choice for the last coat or two. That's what the old school wood floor guy told me when he stripped and re-finished the floors in my house. Oh, and he would say go oil-based; he seemed to think that the more the EPA was afraid of the product, the happier his customers would be in a few years.

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Some offline discussion indicates that the water based products don't flow as well and may not wear as hard so I'm going oil based.

I'm still going to put some on a test piece and see how I like it.

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1 hour ago, RedRyder said:

 he seemed to think that the more the EPA was afraid of the product, the happier his customers would be in a few years.

Ain't that the truth.

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In my experience, the diff between water and oil based polys on wood is that the oil based ones "yellow" the finish while water based ones remain clear.  I mostly/exclusively use the oil ones so can't comment much on wear.

On the screw-vs-plug question, I'd say the exposed bronze screws are fine aesthetically but I would worry about

1- the screw head divot will collect fine grit that will be impossible to sweep away and will wear your finish down faster.

2 - moisture will penetrate the screws.  they will let moisture and fine grit migrate under them into the floor wood.  You can pre-treat the counter sunk holes with epoxy

3 - varnishing over the screw heads will make them hard to get out anyway having to dig the varnish out of the slots/squares

In my opinion, (I ain't doing it!) by the time you do all this pre-treating and careful counter-boring to get uniform head-heights you might as well plug them instead and get a smooth surface that sweeps and wipes clean super-easy.

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As much as I love a nice varnish job, I would use poly on the sole, in that it's a lot harder than varnish, unless you start playing chemist with additives.  When I was sailing with my mate on his B-40 I redid his sole with poly during a refit in Australia in '85 and it looked great the last time I saw it, which was in '94, and that boat had a lot of hard miles on her.  She sank a couple of years later, so that's as far as I can give testimony to the staying power of poly on soles.  We use varnish in the boatyard.  Scratches like a bastard, but it sure looks great when it's new.  Not my department.

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I used an oil based varathane product a few years ago and it's proven to be very hard wearing and was easy to apply.  I used a satin finish (Varathane 1100 IIRC) and found that it enhanced the look of the wood very nicely. 

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After many iterations of trimming, fitting and fiddling, all of my new cabin sole pieces are cut and sealed with epoxy.

I found a long piece of teak at a wood shop and we ripped it down to trim the exposed edges of the sole and bilge boards.

The original marine ply, combined with the teak and holly lauan was 5/8".  All I could find locally, was 3/4" marine ply with a teak and holly face. Probably a pretty thin veneer. 1/2" was available, but I felt that it would be too thin and flex when people walked on it, and not last as long.

I wish I could document this process in a way that would help other people that are looking to do the same thing, but I'm lousy with wood work. This was a slow, tedious process of measuring, cutting, fitting, trimming, planing, and re-fitting, and trimming and planing and re-fitting until things fit properly. A pro probably would have whipped out a tape measure and had all the cutting done in a day.  I suck at carpentry, especially when the wood curves vertically. The best advice I can offer from this project is:

-definitely apply penetrating epoxy to the undersides at least.

- take a moment to consider why the original builders did certain things before deviating from existing construction.

-an electric hand planer is invaluable for shaping the wood to conform to hull contours and for neatly trimming down that tiny bit of excess where a saw might make a mess. It's faster and more consistent and controllable than a belt sander on long edges.

- a coping saw is also valuable for cutting out small sections where the sole fits around mast bases, fixtures or fittings. A coping saw blade is very thin, so minimal wood is lost.

-Use blue painter's tape around the edges to preserve the teak and holly face when sawing and applying epoxy. Penetrating epoxy is very thin and runs right around the corners.

-Be sure to account for the thickness of any edge trim pieces when cutting your new pieces.

I'm just waiting for the epoxy to dry before proceeding further...

20171231_113010.jpg

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Why not seal the faces with epoxy as well?  Couldn't hurt and may even harden up the veneer.

 

I haven't been following for a while so this is probably waaaay too late.  How did the step go?  - if you have any extra length, you could just drill 1" holes and then just cut it down.  Would cost about an inch of teak, so only about $75?

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I should mention that I was picturing 1" dia notches at the ends of the step.  If you need(ed) 1" dia half round grooves then the core box bit mentioned above is/was the answer.

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Seal everything with epoxy! No exposed anything, and it will last long after our bones are used for a bonfire on a remote island somewhere, Ajax.

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On 12/7/2017 at 7:38 AM, SemiSalt said:

I'm no sort of craftsman, so take this at face value. For varnish, I'd go down to the local paint store and ask them for the toughest, no-scratch floor varnish they have.

if you want hard floor finish...how about Fabulon?  the stuff is da bomb for finishing floors

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