Tornado-Cat

The winning foils

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Surely if a team had a pair of foils for both light and heavy air, and then broke one for whatever reason, they'd simply sail with a mixed set and favor the tack that has the right foil for the conditions where possible. 

We witnessed ETNZ having two different foils in the boat during the Auckland testing sessions. 

It's almost guaranteed that one of the teams will be forced to do so. 

 

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ETNZ will have TWO sets of foils - One Light to Mid Range, and one Heavy Wind Range

Coming very, very late as they most likely had to change design "tack" when the other teams voted to add in a set of boards... the lead in time puts those boards as arriving soon or already there now.

The change of rules around the number of permitted boards completely changed the "best" design strategy and safety of a 2nd back up set in case of damage.

Speed wins and boards designed for a specific wind range will be much faster than "one size fits all".

 

 

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13 minutes ago, Foilingfast said:

ETNZ will have TWO sets of foils - One Light to Mid Range, and one Heavy Wind Range

Coming very, very late as they most likely had to change design "tack" when the other teams voted to add in a set of boards... the lead in time puts those boards as arriving soon or already there now.

The change of rules around the number of permitted boards completely changed the "best" design strategy and safety of a 2nd back up set in case of damage.

Speed wins and boards designed for a specific wind range will be much faster than "one size fits all".

 

 

Apologies if already discussed, but what is the minimum windspeed at which the boats can foil on their light-wind foils? What is minimum for staying on foils through maneuvers?  

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5 minutes ago, 2Newts said:

Apologies if already discussed, but what is the minimum windspeed at which the boats can foil on their light-wind foils? What is minimum for staying on foils through maneuvers?  

They can be fully foiling in around 8 knots of wind. A good source is Nick Holroyd in this video, The Art of Foils

No idea the answer to the second question, some teams drop off even in big wind.

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33 minutes ago, Foilingfast said:

ETNZ will have TWO sets of foils - One Light to Mid Range, and one Heavy Wind Range

Coming very, very late as they most likely had to change design "tack" when the other teams voted to add in a set of boards... the lead in time puts those boards as arriving soon or already there now.

The change of rules around the number of permitted boards completely changed the "best" design strategy and safety of a 2nd back up set in case of damage.

Speed wins and boards designed for a specific wind range will be much faster than "one size fits all".

============================

..

 

 

They may have two sets of foils but both sets are likely to be able to be used effectively throughout the legal wind range . The idea of one light wind set and one heavy air set is just silly and a huge gamble!

I'll bet the rumor is true.....

As ever, it’s those crafty Kiwis keeping the rest guessing, with a rumour that the New Zealanders are working on one foil set that will carry them through the wind range and removing that morning weather forecasting headache. At what cost to top-end speed you’d have to wonder? Even the Kiwis can’t change the laws of physics.
http://www.yachtingworld.com/americas-cup/americas-cup-rumours-abound-as-the-challengers-run-out-of-time-to-make-significant-changes-to-their-boats-107355

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15 minutes ago, 2Newts said:

Apologies if already discussed, but what is the minimum windspeed at which the boats can foil on their light-wind foils? What is minimum for staying on foils through maneuvers?  

You can't rely on anything a Team says now but most here including stingray do. So here's another "fact" from Team France: they took off in a 6 knot wind and did 18 knots boatspeed. I would think it highly likely that every Team would be able to foil in 6 knots of wind despite what some have said.

To not be able to foil when another Team can is a good way to lose the Cup and/or not even be in contention.

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11 minutes ago, ~Stingray~ said:

They can be fully foiling in around 8 knots of wind. A good source if Nick Holroyd in this video, The Art of Foils

No idea the answer to the second question, some teams drop off even in big wind.

Thank you. That video is a great explanation. 

I'm going to an AC talk tonight by Bruce Knecht (https://www.amazon.com/Comeback-Larry-Ellison-Team-America/dp/1532994206/) and a "prominent member of the yachting world" ... and yes, that is what the invite says. 

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6 minutes ago, Doug Lord said:

(Snip)

To not be able to foil when another Team can is a good way to lose the Cup and/or not even be in contention.

That is the most clear and concise thing I've seen you say, EVER, Doug. What's more, I think we'd all pretty much agree with it. :D

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14 minutes ago, Doug Lord said:

They may have two sets of foils but both sets are likely to be able to be used effectively throughout the legal wind range . The idea of on light wind set and one heavy air set is just silly and a huge gamble!

I'll bet the rumor is true.....

 

ALL the foils will work thru the entire wind range. However, some will take off more easily and be faster towards the bottom end of the range (higher lift coef, less drag thru the lower half of speed range) and some will be faster at the top end (Lower lift coef, less drag near top of speed range). The overlap in the middle where the performance is comparable will be quite broad. That has been the foil strategy from day one, and has been widely reported. It is possible that -due to structural failures - a team ends up with only ONE set because the other set is broken. It is also possible that - if one set is a design failure - that a team will only USE one set, despite designing and building two different ones. But neither of those possible outcomes support your claim.

So here's where were at - unless a team shows up with 2 sets of identical foils, you're what we designer/engineers call 'full of poop'.

 

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Amazing. This supports my claim-more or less:

As ever, it’s those crafty Kiwis keeping the rest guessing, with a rumour that the New Zealanders are working on one foil set that will carry them through the wind range and removing that morning weather forecasting headache. At what cost to top-end speed you’d have to wonder? Even the Kiwis can’t change the laws of physics.
http://www.yachtingworld.com/americas-cup/americas-cup-rumours-abound-as-the-challengers-run-out-of-time-to-make-significant-changes-to-their-boats-107355

----------------------------------

IF its possible which I'm convinced it is, every Team will shoot for a foil that works as good throughout the entire 6-25 knot windrange as two sets of so called specialist foils would. It's the only approach that makes total sense in conditions that are likely to be variable during a race day. It gives the Team 4 excellent foils instead of half that number suitable for only certain conditions.

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^^ there is not team you can believe now, not even TJ :)

And, if it was the case, do the Kiwis have the choice with the rumoured protest ? We have a total black out on that.

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3 minutes ago, Doug Lord said:

Amazing. This supports my claim-more or less:

As ever, it’s those crafty Kiwis keeping the rest guessing, with a rumour that the New Zealanders are working on one foil set that will carry them through the wind range and removing that morning weather forecasting headache. At what cost to top-end speed you’d have to wonder? Even the Kiwis can’t change the laws of physics.
http://www.yachtingworld.com/americas-cup/americas-cup-rumours-abound-as-the-challengers-run-out-of-time-to-make-significant-changes-to-their-boats-107355

So, Is it more...or is it less, Doug?

Funny how you were lecturing us all about not believing anything the teams said and now what they say backs your theory, don't you think? 

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Correct me if I'm wrong, but I thought we already saw two sets of foils from ETNZ - the gull wing foils and the very long ones with a smooth curve that they were supposedly testing in very light winds a few days ago. These are in addition to the practice foils they used during the first few days in Bermuda. I think all these "rumors" about the teams in these articles are nothing more than someone taking BS from this forum and writing it up as an article.

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What? Its a rumor and as best as I can tell not necessarily from the Team. It could just as easily be from that guy at the end of the bar. You absolutely cannot believe anything from a Team now or over the last few months yet the "gang" here still does because it supports their preconceived, simplistic view of how this will work. So many just can't think out side the current "gang" version of everything .

That being said I'm right and the "gang" is wrong-----more or less...

 

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24 minutes ago, Sailbydate said:

That is the most clear and concise thing I've seen you say, EVER, Doug. What's more, I think we'd all pretty much agree with it. :D

Next Doug will tell us the sun will rise tomorrow. 

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1 minute ago, erdb said:

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I thought we already saw two sets of foils from ETNZ - the gull wing foils and the very long ones with a smooth curve that they were supposedly testing in very light winds a few days ago. These are in addition to the practice foils they used during the first few days in Bermuda. I think all these "rumors" about the teams in these articles are nothing more than someone taking BS from this forum and writing it up as an article.

Where do you think the "winning foil" is going to come from-space? You see different foils because they are testing different versions of THE ONE AND ONLY all round kick ass in all conditions foil. You might have noticed some Teams -Oracle and a couple others- sailing in strong wind with foils the "gurus" said were light air foils. Why?

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4 minutes ago, Doug Lord said:

What? Its a rumor and as best as I can tell not necessarily from the Team. It could just as easily be from that guy at the end of the bar. You absolutely cannot believe anything from a Team now or over the last few months yet the "gang" here still does because it supports their preconceived, simplistic view of how this will work. So many just can't think out side the current "gang" version of everything .

That being said I'm right and the "gang" is wrong-----more or less...

 

See post #2536.

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1 hour ago, Doug Lord said:

They may have two sets of foils but both sets are likely to be able to be used effectively throughout the legal wind range . The idea of one light wind set and one heavy air set is just silly and a huge gamble!

Again, you make a huge statement and you refuse to back it up. If it is silly and a huge gamble, please explain under what circumstances a 1 foil strategy will be better. Please don't come back with your own "silly" comment about changeable conditions unless you can show that happens on a regular basis at the regatta venue. The only way a 1 foil strategy would be better is if the conditions during race time changed by more than the range a foil was designed for and that change was unpredictable. You would need a 5-8 knot increase or decrease in wind strength over a 2 hours period that could not have been forecast and you need that to happen more often than not, more than 50% of the time. If you have taken even a cursory look at the historic wind data, that is not how the wind works in that part of the world. 

Yet again I would ask you to give us a meaningful analysis of when a 1 foil strategy would work, rather than simply throwing "silly" one liners out there.

You might also explain how it is that i have sailed so many regattas in so many different places in classes where you use different gear (mast, sails, foils) for different conditions and have been caught out with the wrong gear so little.

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As ever, it’s those crafty Kiwis keeping the rest guessing, with a rumour that the New Zealanders are working on one foil set that will carry them through the wind range and removing that morning weather forecasting headache. At what cost to top-end speed you’d have to wonder? Even the Kiwis can’t change the laws of physics.
http://www.yachtingworld.com/americas-cup/americas-cup-rumours-abound-as-the-challengers-run-out-of-time-to-make-significant-changes-to-their-boats-107355

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The real question is where the overlaps will be and if they vary much between teams. 

My swag is that the lower wind sets will be used only up to around 12knts TWS because starting there you are already approaching 40 knts downwind.

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58 minutes ago, Doug Lord said:

Where do you think the "winning foil" is going to come from-space? You see different foils because they are testing different versions of THE ONE AND ONLY all round kick ass in all conditions foil. You might have noticed some Teams -Oracle and a couple others- sailing in strong wind with foils the "gurus" said were light air foils. Why?

But they can't do that. They're allowed two sets of foils, and as soon as it gets wet the first time, it counts. They can play with the 30% and 10% rules, but that'll just fine-tune what they have now. 

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Of course they can test different versions of foils-that's what they have been doing. And because they were told by various Teams that they were testing light and heavy air foils, many here believed that. They could just as well have been testing different versions of a foil designed to work as well as a specialist foil throughout the legal wind range which explains why a couple boats have been videoed sailing in strong wind with foils that were purported to be light air foils by the resident "guru's".

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2 hours ago, 2Newts said:

Apologies if already discussed, but what is the minimum windspeed at which the boats can foil on their light-wind foils? What is minimum for staying on foils through maneuvers?  

Holroyd states 6.5knts to fly a hull, 7-7.5knts full foiling

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56 minutes ago, Indio said:

Holroyd states 6.5knts to fly a hull, 7-7.5knts full foiling

Off the wind we have seen some of the boats up seemingly just on zephyrs, quite astonishing really, the footage of ETNZ's first Bermuda afternoon sail really highlights just how little wind is required to get airbourne.

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3 minutes ago, Boybland said:

Off the wind we have seen some of the boats up seemingly just on zephyrs, quite astonishing really, the footage of ETNZ's first Bermuda afternoon sail really highlights just how little wind is required to get airbourne.

I keep wondering why they didn't just declare those ex-AC45S foils, they did look good using them.

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6 minutes ago, justsomeone said:

Questain:- How must of the lifting surface do we think they can change with the 10% and no the answer is not 10%

Good question. Holroyd has suggested that changes of that order may include shortening, lengthening, or modifying the trailing edge, with varying amounts of time lost but some of those tip changes being able to accomplish within 4 days.

Another question is if some tips are removeable for when making those changes, with 'prior-shaped' ones sailed with in the mean time.

 

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4 minutes ago, ~Stingray~ said:

Good question. Holroyd has suggested that changes of that order may include shortening, lengthening, or modifying the trailing edge, with varying amounts of time lost but some of those tip changes being able to accomplish within 4 days.

Another question is if some tips are removeable for when making those changes, with 'prior-shaped' ones sailed with in the mean time.

 

I would like to suggest 100% see Request for Interpretation No. 33
My own mental calculations with no real data suggest 50-75%

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1 hour ago, ~Stingray~ said:

I keep wondering why they didn't just declare those ex-AC45S foils, they did look good using them.

I think the issue they have is both those and the set we have seen appear to be light wind foils, the new gullwing set look to be even faster in light conditions.

Presumably the set that are coming next week will be better optimised for heavier conditions.

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17 minutes ago, Boybland said:

I think the issue they have is both those and the set we have seen appear to be light wind foils, the new gullwing set look to be even faster in light conditions.

Presumably the set that are coming next week will be better optimised for heavier conditions.

Under the protocal they are now their replacement set
TNZ has been using the rule to their advantage as thet see it

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20 minutes ago, Boybland said:

I think the issue they have is both those and the set we have seen appear to be light wind foils, the new gullwing set look to be even faster in light conditions.

Presumably the set that are coming next week will be better optimised for heavier conditions.

Read Request for Interpretation No. 42 about WW foil position

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32 minutes ago, Boybland said:

I think the issue they have is both those and the set we have seen appear to be light wind foils, the new gullwing set look to be even faster in light conditions.

Presumably the set that are coming next week will be better optimised for heavier conditions.

Now that wind conditions should get lighter ? A new smoke screen ?

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1 hour ago, ~Stingray~ said:

Good question. Holroyd has suggested that changes of that order may include shortening, lengthening, or modifying the trailing edge, with varying amounts of time lost but some of those tip changes being able to accomplish within 4 days.

Another question is if some tips are removeable for when making those changes, with 'prior-shaped' ones sailed with in the mean time.

 

It is 10% of the weight, it could be the tip itself, and they could benefit of an "unlimited number of minor changes".

The word "minor" is kind of funny as that it may represent the key factor to win next AC.

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6 hours ago, Doug Lord said:

They may have two sets of foils but both sets are likely to be able to be used effectively throughout the legal wind range . The idea of one light wind set and one heavy air set is just silly and a huge gamble!

I'll bet the rumor is true.....

As ever, it’s those crafty Kiwis keeping the rest guessing, with a rumour that the New Zealanders are working on one foil set that will carry them through the wind range and removing that morning weather forecasting headache. At what cost to top-end speed you’d have to wonder? Even the Kiwis can’t change the laws of physics.
http://www.yachtingworld.com/americas-cup/americas-cup-rumours-abound-as-the-challengers-run-out-of-time-to-make-significant-changes-to-their-boats-107355

Why is it "Just silly and a huge gamble"?? - You can clearly see that other teams have two sets of boards (shorter stubbier ones for heavy winds and longer span ones for light) - they are going very quick, especially AT

It has been spoken about what happens if they are damages (different foils on each hull etc or back to the previous generation from their AC45...)

The quickest boat wins and foils optimised for specific ranges will be faster than those made to span a large range!

especially in the key areas of 1) Lowest take off speed & 2) Highest max speed - both are HUGE advantges

I just cant see where you get "silly" from....

*hangs head...

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What would be silly is if the "all purpose foil" rumour started with the Yachting World reporter reading this thread.

 

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On 5/10/2017 at 9:31 AM, Doug Lord said:

What a pile of horseshit! The kind of thing brain dead assholes resort to when they just don't get it...........

Which part is the pile of horse shit?  The comments about sailing experience and the model, or the part about the board pull down rope running to a hydraulic ram?

I have been watching piles of video trying to make sure I understand how the board elevation is being controlled and the hydraulic rams for both board up (using telescoping ram) and down (using a line to an unseen ram in the hull) seem to be accurate and makes sense looking at the close up hi-def pics.

Its interesting to see the progression in reducing windage and which teams are doing what.  Most of the teams started out with a tall rather ungainly non-telescoping pulley system (or ram) as seen in early GTF, BAR, and even ETNZ.

Now most have gone to a much lower profile ram that when the board is down, only sticks up maybe 1 foot and telescopes to perhaps 3 feet (half way up the board) when board is fully raised.

It seems like the ram could be flush with the deck when the board is down for ultimate windage reduction but no one seems to be bothering.

BAR and GTF seem to have the most simplistic of the current implementations and OTUSA have the most sophisticated.   Everyone else seems to be in between in sophistication.

OTUSA's ram has a foil shape that is probably 4-6" long but perhaps only 1" thick and when it telescopes, is the same curved shape as the raised board so it fits extremely tight to the board profile.   

I have attempted to include two pics below from two different angles that show the OTUSA ram profile..

photo.PNG

photo.PNG

And a third angle showing the side profile to match the board...

photo.PNG

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8 hours ago, Doug Lord said:

What? Its a rumor and as best as I can tell not necessarily from the Team. It could just as easily be from that guy at the end of the bar. You absolutely cannot believe anything from a Team now or over the last few months yet the "gang" here still does because it supports their preconceived, simplistic view of how this will work. So many just can't think out side the current "gang" version of everything .

That being said I'm right and the "gang" is wrong-----more or less... - NO NOT AT ALL, AT MOST FOR 1/6TH AS WE'VE BEEN PROVEN TO BE RIGHT FOR 5/6 OF TEAMS.

 

FUCK OFF

WE ARE right for 5/6 teams, and according to a rumour (WHICH YOU SAY WE AREN'T ALLOWED TO BELIEVE) you MIGHT be right for 1/6 teams.  

TF has 2 - Already sailing with

AR has 2 - Already sailing with

TJ has 2 -  Already sailing with

OR has 1 -And the other day pointed out they have their 2nd set due in the next week as they have been sailing on heavy air boards and have been getting their asses handed to them in light air.

BAR has 1-  And stated they have "major upgrades coming very very soon" possibly inferring to new boards (basically as a retort for the "hey guys why are you getting creamed" they're saying they have more boards coming and not to worry).

TNZ has 1 - and a rumour, which you tell us not to listen to has said they intend on staying with 1 set and a backup set. Which they haven't launched with yet, going to have to wait and see.

 

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31 minutes ago, ChetD said:

Which part is the pile of horse shit?  The comments about sailing experience and the model, or the part about the board pull down rope running to a hydraulic ram?

 

What he claims is "bullshit", is that he hasn't sailed in decades and his models haven't sailed in years. I requested numerous times (along with many others) some proof that he has.

He has not ever provided one shred of evidence that he has sailed in the last 20 years, and the same images of his model sailing he posts every fucking day are from 2014.

He has not sailed, he just says "bullshit your a liar" when anyone calls him out on it, but of course they aren't lying, he really hasn't sailed, he hasn't ever provided a shred of evidence (other than his obviously very poor knowledge of sailing in the real world) because he just quotes this off the internet which he feels "supports" his point of view on everything.

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12 hours ago, jawjaw said:

Why? Maybe I'm a little confused, but I thought DL's theory that people objected to was that a team could produce a foil that outperforms a heavy-conditions foil in heavy conditions and outperforms a light-conditions foil in light conditions. Would a team using a one foil strategy prove that? The article doesn't say they might have a foil that's better than specialty foils in all conditions, it says they might use all-conditions foils despite the performance cost as a way of mitigating the downside of breaking a set.

Was his theory really just 'a team might use a one-foil strategy, even though they perform worse than specialty foils, because its less risky'? 

Yes. Hard to believe, I know. And he's refused to speculate what those risks might be. 

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14 hours ago, jawjaw said:

Why? Maybe I'm a little confused, but I thought DL's theory that people objected to was that a team could produce a foil that outperforms a heavy-conditions foil in heavy conditions and outperforms a light-conditions foil in light conditions. Would a team using a one foil strategy prove that? The article doesn't say they might have a foil that's better than specialty foils in all conditions, it says they might use all-conditions foils despite the performance cost as a way of mitigating the downside of breaking a set.

Was his theory really just 'a team might use a one-foil strategy, even though they perform worse than specialty foils, because its less risky'? 

You are close to Doug's theory but not quite there. He claims that it should be possible to design a single foil that will perform as well as a specialist light wind foil in light weather and as well as a specialist heavy air foil in heavy winds. Most others on here say that it isn't possible, including people who sail foiling boats and somebody who designs foils professionally.

Doug makes a big point out of his belief that using a 2 foil strategy is too risky. He actually stated that it was the biggest point. He simply states that if conditions change too much during racing, a team could be caught with the wrong foils. He refuses to address the facts regarding the likelihood of getting caught with teh worng gear. He refuses to address clear evidence from other boats that having condition specific gear carries little risk.

You are correct that a team using a 1 foil strategy doesn't give us any evidence that they are doing it because they think it is better. At least 3 of the teams are behind in their development programs and might end up being forced down a 1 foil route, or they could be forced down that route because of breakages. I suspect we will not know which teams have done what until well after the event.

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 I'll bet the rumor is true..... Says Lord of Fail

What will you bet? Put up what you will bet, for this conversation to have any reference point.

You refuse to answer any questions put to you by anyone - friend or foe. So to verify whether you are just trolling for click bait, or have skin in the game.                                             It is time to put up or shut up.

Name your wager - and make it good. You could even make it a donation to your favourite charity or similar. I am sure that we, as a crowd would match your wager so that the nominated organisation could do very nicely out of the outcome.

I am sure that  through various posters and site connections - we could get the teams to verify whether they ran one set or two different sets to be measured in for the LV & AC series. Obviously the verification will only come after the series has completed - it will most likely be a simple One or Two answer, no proprietary information would need to be given out - so the chances of getting team statements after competition is good.

If you fail to respond to this challenge - then it will confirm that you are just a click baiting troll who knows nothing.

Over to you BiG guY

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15 hours ago, Tornado-Cat said:

It is 10% of the weight, it could be the tip itself, and they could benefit of an "unlimited number of minor changes".

The word "minor" is kind of funny as that it may represent the key factor to win next AC.

TC surely by now you can see that the use of the term 'tip' does nothing but confuse.

You have consistently stated that they could keep the vertical arm - and swap the rest!

So by 'tip' you mean the entire lower arm (the lifting surface - everything from the bend in the foil out to the end) can be changed under the 10% rule.

I am certain this is wrong.

There's the sketch in interpretation 33 and LARBAR had a photo of an entire swappable lifting surface labelled as a 'tip' - but I am sure this is not what NH (SBTJ) was referring to when he talked about potentially swapping or adding or removing 'tips' under the 10% rule. I mean by your definition removing the 'tip' wouldn't leave any lifting surface at all!

We have seen photos of what appear to be swappable sections - which make up at most around 1/3 to 1/2 of the lifting surface (or lower arm - if you prefer). That is the maximum length of the lower arm that I think could equate to 10% of the mass of the entire foil. Especially now that the vertical arms seems to be getting shorter and shorter....

And of course some teams might chose to swap smaller parts than that. OTUSA has obvious small (handlength) turned up sections on the outer end of some of their foils for example, that could easily be swapped or removed for different conditions.

No one is detaching at the elbow under the 10% rule!

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15 hours ago, justsomeone said:

Read Request for Interpretation No. 42 about WW foil position

Why? How is it significant to 'future foils' IYO?

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7 hours ago, Team_GBR said:

You are close to Doug's theory but not quite there. He claims that it should be possible to design a single foil that will perform as well as a specialist light wind foil in light weather and as well as a specialist heavy air foil in heavy winds. Most others on here say that it isn't possible, including people who sail foiling boats and somebody who designs foils professionally.

Doug makes a big point out of his belief that using a 2 foil strategy is too risky. He actually stated that it was the biggest point. He simply states that if conditions change too much during racing, a team could be caught with the wrong foils. He refuses to address the facts regarding the likelihood of getting caught with teh worng gear. He refuses to address clear evidence from other boats that having condition specific gear carries little risk.

You are correct that a team using a 1 foil strategy doesn't give us any evidence that they are doing it because they think it is better. At least 3 of the teams are behind in their development programs and might end up being forced down a 1 foil route, or they could be forced down that route because of breakages. I suspect we will not know which teams have done what until well after the event.

"caught with the  wrong gear. " But the other team  would  be on the same position, so?

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22 minutes ago, nav said:

....

No one is detaching at the elbow under the 10% rule!

I wonder if it is legal to detach a foil's lifting section at the elbow, then replace it with a section that is identical except for a minor change. If so then that could explain a lot; teams could then do the '4 day' minor changes to a section while continuing to sail with an almost-identical previous-incarnation section still in the current-use foil. It would also enable for example a change to the shape of just the trailing edge (to keep it 'minor') but along the whole length of that lifting section - something else that NH alluded to.

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9 minutes ago, jorge said:

"caught with the  wrong gear. " But the other team  would  be on the same position, so?

Are there rules about everyone needing to be in the water by a certain time?

If not, a team that has two races on a day where conditions are expected to change, but whose opponents only have one race, could be at a disadvantage.

eg. if the conditions change through day 1, AR (in races 2 and 4) could have a tough time deciding on which foils to take out for the day, while their opponents (STJ in race 2, BAR in race 4) only have one race each so could specialize. BAR would be at a particular advantage if they don't have to be on the water until later, so get longer to decide on which gear to take. It's not likely to happen often, but it is plausible that you could end up with sub-optimal gear vs someone with their best.

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30 minutes ago, ~Stingray~ said:

I wonder if it is legal to detach a foil's lifting section at the elbow, then replace it with a section that is identical except for a minor change. If so then that could explain a lot; teams could then do the '4 day' minor changes to a section while continuing to sail with an almost-identical previous-incarnation section still in the current-use foil. It would also enable for example a change to the shape of just the trailing edge (to keep it 'minor') but along the whole length of that lifting section - something else that NH alluded to.

No, you get to measure in a foil, provide all the details, photos etc, if you change it you have to prove to the measurement committee that you have done that within the rules and get it remeasured AFAIK. If the change is more than 10% that's a 1 off change.

So You could not swap >10% for an identical bit and still have it accepted as the original foil - IMO.

Also....It seemed clear to me that NH was allowing for 2 different scenarios in his explanation, 1/ swappable bits (so 1/2 and hour + measuring?), 2/ actual changes to the profile that mean adding and/or removing material, refinishing etc (so 3-4 days + remeasuring).

But who knows, maybe even swapping ready parts still means re-fairing etc? Could differ from team to team as well of course :D

 

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1 hour ago, jorge said:

"caught with the  wrong gear. " But the other team  would  be on the same position, so?

This point is only valid between two teams that both use high and low wind foil sets.

Doug's example is between a 2 foil set team and a magic, yet to be invented, does everything better, single foil set team, who are always ready to race at 100% efficiency!

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1 hour ago, nav said:

TC surely by now you can see that the use of the term 'tip' does nothing but confuse.

You have consistently stated that they could keep the vertical arm - and swap the rest!

So by 'tip' you mean the entire lower arm (the lifting surface - everything from the bend in the foil out to the end) can be changed under the 10% rule.

I am certain this is wrong.

There's the sketch in interpretation 33 and LARBAR had a photo of an entire swappable lifting surface labelled as a 'tip' - but I am sure this is not what NH (SBTJ) was referring to when he talked about potentially swapping or adding or removing 'tips' under the 10% rule. I mean by your definition removing the 'tip' wouldn't leave any lifting surface at all!

We have seen photos of what appear to be swappable sections - which make up at most around 1/3 to 1/2 of the lifting surface (or lower arm - if you prefer). That is the maximum length of the lower arm that I think could equate to 10% of the mass of the entire foil. Especially now that the vertical arms seems to be getting shorter and shorter....

And of course some teams might chose to swap smaller parts than that. OTUSA has obvious small (handlength) turned up sections on the outer end of some of their foils for example, that could easily be swapped or removed for different conditions.

No one is detaching at the elbow under the 10% rule!

It is true that I always said that the 30%, the 10% and the flex were part of the equation.

Up to now I thought the 10% would relate to the trailing edge (we have seen a photo of OR changing their rudder trailing edge), the leading edge and the end of the tip.

What we saw from BAR was the entire tip up to the elbow, however some in TF considered that the did not chose an optimal solution as the foil is deteriorating. IMO this tip was in the 30% rule because it included the male part. If you remember what I said at the time, if the shaft (vertical arm) has the male part, then I guess that some tip could change the whole as much as they want.

Look at the OR foil, their shaft are massive, their tips is very now and thin, if the male part of the junction is part of the arm, they could very well change the complete tip within the 10% weight. I did not make the calcules though. But I am sure they have tens of small part that they change and test everyday. The question of 1 or 2 sets of foils is far, very far, from being the most important, IMO. Teams are just trying to find best configurations depending on the wind.

 

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1 hour ago, ~Stingray~ said:

I wonder if it is legal to detach a foil's lifting section at the elbow, then replace it with a section that is identical except for a minor change. If so then that could explain a lot; teams could then do the '4 day' minor changes to a section while continuing to sail with an almost-identical previous-incarnation section still in the current-use foil. It would also enable for example a change to the shape of just the trailing edge (to keep it 'minor') but along the whole length of that lifting section - something else that NH alluded to.

As many changes as the want, any place in the foil as far as it is less than 10% and measured. So TNZ could have one set of foils and modify it. If their foil is too long they could even use the 30% (if not already used within the limits of the prot)

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4 hours ago, jawjaw said:

Are there rules about everyone needing to be in the water by a certain time?

If not, a team that has two races on a day where conditions are expected to change, but whose opponents only have one race, could be at a disadvantage.

eg. if the conditions change through day 1, AR (in races 2 and 4) could have a tough time deciding on which foils to take out for the day, while their opponents (STJ in race 2, BAR in race 4) only have one race each so could specialize. BAR would be at a particular advantage if they don't have to be on the water until later, so get longer to decide on which gear to take. It's not likely to happen often, but it is plausible that you could end up with sub-optimal gear vs someone with their best.

Good point, i don´t know what the rules say about that. Common sense indicates that if you are allowed one foil on a day, they should all choose the foil at the same time, no matter the time of the day they are racing (but AC lacks common sense). If it's not that way, it's going to be a hell of a problem.

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There was comment that getting the foil installed and aligned was a significant task. Not something to change during the day?

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Just now, Nutta said:

There was comment that getting the foil installed and aligned was a significant task. Not something to change during the day?

ETNZ commented a month back that it was a night before job.

Could be bullshit of course. But not sure what they'd gain.

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6 minutes ago, Nutta said:

There was comment that getting the foil installed and aligned was a significant task. Not something to change during the day?

The rules also talk about requiring a Measurement 3 hrs before you race, iirc. So yes, a variable day's weather could make choices tricky.

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5 hours ago, nav said:

Why? How is it significant to 'future foils' IYO?

It opens the door to twin foiling, especialy in light airs, the rules prohibit righting moment but not lift

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8 minutes ago, ~Stingray~ said:

The rules also talk about requiring a Measurement 3 hrs before you race, iirc. So yes, a variable day's weather could make choices tricky.

So then the team that races only once in the day has an advantage?

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Not really. There are 4x20min races in a 2hr window. You have to be measured 3hrs in advance. Not a lot of spare time there to be mucking around with foil choice. 

Also, I'm guessing that significant wind change in that 2hr race period is unlikely, and if it occurs will affect all teams more or less similarly.  They'll be committed to a foil package by then. 

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It did happen today, as got well illustrated by 'Clouds' in today's ETNZ video, that the wind suddenly swung 90 deg to the north and at one point in there was at almost 0 knts before it began ripping again within an hour. But it's been rare to see that and hopefully the steadier SWerly trade winds prevail starting soon. Fun too, that in the video he showed the Pearl Island graphs, same as what I'd also been watching today as it developed.

http://www.weather.bm/tools/graphics.asp?name=PEARL ISLAND GRAPH&user=

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43 minutes ago, justsomeone said:

It opens the door to twin foiling, especialy in light airs, the rules prohibit righting moment but not lift

Oh so nothing new then. That is just a carry over from AC34, (times allowed for added RM slightly reduced etc), but 4x4oiling is still allowed, as long as you can convince the MC that you are lifting on both sides.

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3 minutes ago, nav said:

Oh so nothing new then. That is just a carry over from AC34, (times allowed for added RM slightly reduced etc), but 4x4oiling is still allowed, as long as you can convince the MC that you are lifting on both sides.

Think about gull wing foils and the 0.4m. They can effectivly claim protection as the board is fully retracted 

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^ So you suggest they are going for RM after all? As you don't need protection for lift...

 

You first mentioned light airs, so I assumed you were talking exta lift for early take off - do you know which you mean?!

 

The next 'there has to be something more'?

 

 

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10 minutes ago, justsomeone said:

Think about gull wing foils and the 0.4m. They can effectivly claim protection as the board is fully retracted 

Whoa, good possibility, is the geometry right for it?

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5 minutes ago, ~Stingray~ said:

Whoa, good possibility, is the geometry right for it?

Possibly, large radius elbo's would could also work. The publicly viewable rules are missing the appendix information so it makes it difficult.

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7 minutes ago, justsomeone said:

Possibly, large radius elbo's would could also work. The publicly viewable rules are missing the appendix information so it makes it difficult.

That idea (think about the retracted boards rake), and the idea about reverse trailing edge twist to create RM near tip ends, are definitely fun to think about.

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12 minutes ago, ~Stingray~ said:

That idea (think about the retracted boards rake), and the idea about reverse trailing edge twist to create RM near tip ends, are definitely fun to think about.

IMO the main advantage is rule protection for twin foiling in light air, each foil only has to generate half the takeoff lift.

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I can't believe I am posting this, but here goes......(wait for Doug's reaction)

I have been told a story that makes me believe that ETNZ was intending to use a one foil strategy. They concluded that with a limit of 2 foils, the likelihood of a foil failure meant that a 2 foil strategy was too risky. The rule change to allow more boards has completely stuffed them along with them destroying a foil soon after launch. The foils they have been using are AC45 ones and have been described as light wind prototypes. They are now deciding whether to stick with their one foil strategy or change to using this light wind foil plus the all round one. 

The picture isn't clear because of another issue. They have some problem with their foil manufacturing. The second foil set of their matching pair has not yet been delivered, never mind the repaired foils. Part of the issue seems to be that they were unable to identify why the foil failed, delaying the start of the new foils as they didn't want to build something that might simply fail again. They should have had race foils weeks ago but now expect to get just over a week to practice with their preferred foils.

Same source says that at least 3 teams are fully committed to 2 foil strategies and of the other 2, it is unclear of their direction.

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14 minutes ago, Team_GBR said:

I can't believe I am posting this, but here goes......(wait for Doug's reaction)

I have been told a story that makes me believe that ETNZ was intending to use a one foil strategy. They concluded that with a limit of 2 foils, the likelihood of a foil failure meant that a 2 foil strategy was too risky. The rule change to allow more boards has completely stuffed them along with them destroying a foil soon after launch. The foils they have been using are AC45 ones and have been described as light wind prototypes. They are now deciding whether to stick with their one foil strategy or change to using this light wind foil plus the all round one. 

The picture isn't clear because of another issue. They have some problem with their foil manufacturing. The second foil set of their matching pair has not yet been delivered, never mind the repaired foils. Part of the issue seems to be that they were unable to identify why the foil failed, delaying the start of the new foils as they didn't want to build something that might simply fail again. They should have had race foils weeks ago but now expect to get just over a week to practice with their preferred foils.

Same source says that at least 3 teams are fully committed to 2 foil strategies and of the other 2, it is unclear of their direction.

Credible

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27 minutes ago, Team_GBR said:

I can't believe I am posting this, but here goes......(wait for Doug's reaction)

I have been told a story that makes me believe that ETNZ was intending to use a one foil strategy. They concluded that with a limit of 2 foils, the likelihood of a foil failure meant that a 2 foil strategy was too risky. The rule change to allow more boards has completely stuffed them along with them destroying a foil soon after launch. The foils they have been using are AC45 ones and have been described as light wind prototypes. They are now deciding whether to stick with their one foil strategy or change to using this light wind foil plus the all round one. 

The picture isn't clear because of another issue. They have some problem with their foil manufacturing. The second foil set of their matching pair has not yet been delivered, never mind the repaired foils. Part of the issue seems to be that they were unable to identify why the foil failed, delaying the start of the new foils as they didn't want to build something that might simply fail again. They should have had race foils weeks ago but now expect to get just over a week to practice with their preferred foils.

Same source says that at least 3 teams are fully committed to 2 foil strategies and of the other 2, it is unclear of their direction.

Unsettling if true. It would explain the training on the 45 foils - if they are comfortable that they can at least make it to the LV finals on those in a worst-case scenario then it buys/bought them more development time. 

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There are any number of interpretations you can find of the facts/photos/non facts on the ETNZ foils issue ranging from fabulous subterfuge to disaster for ETNZ.  All of them are possible but are based on such a weak set of facts that they could never be considered likely.  I admit to not having a clue....but i don't believe this interpretation of facts any more than any other.

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I believe the facts regarding ETNZ's foils are pretty clear. They launched with AC50 specific foils. After a few days, they stopped using them and the boat was off the water for 10 days. When they returned, they were using a set of AC45 foils which they have used ever since. My understanding of the rules is that the only way they could use AC45 foils and them not count towards their allocation is for them to be replacing broken foils, so they are either doing that, counting the AC45 foils as part of their allocation or cheating by using them while others are available.

The questions that need to be considered are why we haven't seen other foils from ETNZ. If they are on a single foil strategy, why haven't they at very least got their spare set ready. Even if they are on a 2 foil strategy, it is very strange they haven't used another set. I cannot buy the "sandbagging" story because they have only used AC50 foils for 3 days and at this stage, it is now way too late for other teams to copy. That point went ages ago. With so little time left, they would want to have tested all their race foils, if only for structural integrity, never mind actually learning how to use them. If they are on a 1 set only strategy, surely you would want to sail with the foils in as many different conditions as possible to learn how to go through the gears as conditions change. At this stage, they are running a huge risk (to borrow Doug's terms:P) of not having sailed with their race foils across the wind bands.

I cannot find any logical explanation for what is going on beyond they fact they have had a real issue with making foils. This doesn't comment at all on the design, or even the strategy, but to not use their race foils for any other reason is beyond stupid.

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Agreed, been suggesting much the same for a while already. They are so far behind insofar as testing any actual race foils, that it simply can't be intentional at this late a stage.

Maybe they will be fine; next week might give signs one way or the other.

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1 minute ago, ~Stingray~ said:

Agreed, been suggesting much the same for a while already. They are so far behind insofar as testing any actual race foils, that it simply can't be intentional at this late a stage.

Maybe they will be fine; next week might give signs one way or the other.

Is it correct to say that all other teams have used both sets of foils? OR especially (given that they have less opportunity to race against others)  

 

If not then the theory doesn't stack up. 

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The foils themselves can take 3 months to manufacture, but the tips can take a few weeks.

To have the racing foils out now, with tips, would let the cat out of the bag and provide OR the time to analyse them and then manufacture the tips when they realise that the performance is beyond OR's foils.

So to leave the foil and tip disclosure to the very last minute is a good plan, especially considering that OR have a history of copying. Note also that OR are still hiding their tips. 

 

 

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9 minutes ago, Ex-yachtie said:

Is it correct to say that all other teams have used both sets of foils? OR especially (given that they have less opportunity to race against others)  

 

If not then the theory doesn't stack up. 

Yes, both OR and SBTJ are late to start on their second sets, best I can tell neither has shown them yet. But they like everyone besides ETNZ do at least have months instead of days already logged using their first sets. 

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3 minutes ago, ~Stingray~ said:

Yes, both OR and SBTJ are late to start on their second sets, best I can tell neither has shown them yet. But they like everyone besides ETNZ do at least have months instead of days already logged using their first sets. 

That's different to holding back your foils so that others don't see them. 

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So ETNZ have appeared in every (non DoG) AC match for the last 22 years and their worst ever showings are the two ACs before that as LVC finalists. 

Whilst there is always the possibility they have screwed the pooch completely,  history would suggest the chances are pretty bloody remote.

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4 hours ago, ~Stingray~ said:

It did happen today, as got well illustrated by 'Clouds' in today's ETNZ video, that the wind suddenly swung 90 deg to the north and at one point in there was at almost 0 knts before it began ripping again within an hour. But it's been rare to see that and hopefully the steadier SWerly trade winds prevail starting soon. Fun too, that in the video he showed the Pearl Island graphs, same as what I'd also been watching today as it developed.

http://www.weather.bm/tools/graphics.asp?name=PEARL ISLAND GRAPH&user=

Yes, but if that occurs all the teams will just have to use the foils they'd picked and measured earlier.  No ducking back to the sheds for a quick change and re-measure was the point I was making. 

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29 minutes ago, Team_GBR said:

I believe the facts regarding ETNZ's foils are pretty clear. They launched with AC50 specific foils. After a few days, they stopped using them and the boat was off the water for 10 days. When they returned, they were using a set of AC45 foils which they have used ever since. My understanding of the rules is that the only way they could use AC45 foils and them not count towards their allocation is for them to be replacing broken foils, so they are either doing that, counting the AC45 foils as part of their allocation or cheating by using them while others are available.

The questions that need to be considered are why we haven't seen other foils from ETNZ. If they are on a single foil strategy, why haven't they at very least got their spare set ready. Even if they are on a 2 foil strategy, it is very strange they haven't used another set. I cannot buy the "sandbagging" story because they have only used AC50 foils for 3 days and at this stage, it is now way too late for other teams to copy. That point went ages ago. With so little time left, they would want to have tested all their race foils, if only for structural integrity, never mind actually learning how to use them. If they are on a 1 set only strategy, surely you would want to sail with the foils in as many different conditions as possible to learn how to go through the gears as conditions change. At this stage, they are running a huge risk (to borrow Doug's terms:P) of not having sailed with their race foils across the wind bands.

I cannot find any logical explanation for what is going on beyond they fact they have had a real issue with making foils. This doesn't comment at all on the design, or even the strategy, but to not use their race foils for any other reason is beyond stupid.

Haven't followed this minutely but your summary of facts makes sense.  Don't see Kiwis cheating per se, nor relying on AC45 foils as replacements. Of course they could just be taking their own sweet time in completing repairs, running repair scenarios, strength analyses etc, until they hit the deadline to present the repaired foils for measurement.

So what else do i believe?  1> That they will compete with two sets of foils.  2> That Southern Spars has all-but-unrivalled history of experience in designing, building and testing carbon structures that ETNZ can draw on.  This isn't just a supplier-client relationship, this is mateship in its most meaningful way, with national pride at stake. 

Which brings us to on-water testing and experience building in a variety of conditions? Like you, I'm puzzled. Could it be that a few days of testing with the cycle-power setup generated sufficient confidence that superior hydro power and versatility would overcome time-in-grade?

We'll know soon enough.

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34 minutes ago, Barnyb said:

The foils themselves can take 3 months to manufacture, but the tips can take a few weeks.

To have the racing foils out now, with tips, would let the cat out of the bag and provide OR the time to analyse them and then manufacture the tips when they realise that the performance is beyond OR's foils.

So to leave the foil and tip disclosure to the very last minute is a good plan, especially considering that OR have a history of copying. Note also that OR are still hiding their tips. 

That simply doesn't stack up. Before they face Oracle, they need to beat the other teams. New foils aren't something you learn how to use to their optimum overnight. We have seen huge improvements from all the teams without changes to foils, as they learn more about how to adjust the foils as they go. Just because you can foil tack and gybe on one set doesn't mean you know how to do it on another. Even on a 2 foil strategy, you need to practice going through the gears, because how you would set the foils in 6-7 knots would be very different from 12-14 knots. Even if you consider that the "play offs" don't begin until 4th June, because of race schedules, there is little time to train once the event gets under way. You certainly wouldn't train in the morning before racing in the afternoon because of the risk of gear failure screwing your races. Going in with this level of experience with foils being deliberate would be the biggest risk ever. I could and do expect teams to bring out new equipment right before the start, such as aero kit, because that is plug and play needing no getting used to, but foils, no way.

Tips are pretty useless without the main part of the foil for them to plug into and we are way past the time when OR could start making foils from scratch. The first America's Cup match begins in just over a month from now on Saturday 17th June. If they were waiting until OR couldn't copy them, they have overshot by a long way.

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yep, KJ this is also as i see it - which is largely that I don't know.  I can't rule out team GBR world view at all, the summary could fit the information available (though i wont go as far as calling them facts, and i don't say that in an aggressive way).  

One option is that the early testing in those first days gave them such a level of confidence that they've moved to tank/some lake somewhere testing with new foils. I don't know.  Your analysis is possible, but I think there are other scenarios.  We shall see, but I can't deny i'm concerned.

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@Team_GBR your assessment make sense and we're well beyond the point where hiding foil shapes provides any advantage (I still don't understand why OR are photoshopping theirs out of pics).  I think right now OR, LBAR and ETNZ are still all waiting on their final set of foils (not sure about SBTJ?) and obviously OR has a little time before things get real, but Artemis' decision to do everything early is looking like a pretty good strategy given their dominant performance of late

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I find the realism of KJ and aucklander really refreshing after the blind faith and rather obnoxious attitudes of some of the ETNZ supporters. Of course the only people who know what is going on for sure are in the team and whatever the truth is, they will be doing all they can to keep it that way. Snippets get out and maybe some do know more, but we have no way of knowing whether the stories are based on that or being made up. I simply repeat what i have been told by people far closer to things than I am.

Regarding Southern Spars, they are a great company, but somebody built a set of AC50 foils for ETNZ that failed. We don't know if that failure was due to manufacturing or design, but surely whoever made them had a hand in both. The biggest thing I find strange is that after a failure, surely ETNZ would want to test the new foils properly and well enough in advance to come up with plan b if needed.

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My first reaction to the idea that tips (defined as the whole lifting surface from the bend to the end) can be swapped out so easily is highly doubtful.

After the area where the board emerges from the case, the bend is probably the most stressed place on the foil. Might even be more so.  

The idea that they are not using their absolutely best layups and longest fibre tensors around the outside radius is very hard to believe for this lowly engineer.

They might do the tips (much) farther out, but the whole lifting surface, and the torsion moments that this implies.  I'd be stunned.

Been wrong about lots of things in this life, but I'd be surprised if they had the strength latitude to add a juncture there as Stingers suggests.

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5 minutes ago, Team_GBR said:

I find the realism of KJ and aucklander really refreshing after the blind faith and rather obnoxious attitudes of some of the ETNZ supporters. Of course the only people who know what is going on for sure are in the team and whatever the truth is, they will be doing all they can to keep it that way. Snippets get out and maybe some do know more, but we have no way of knowing whether the stories are based on that or being made up. I simply repeat what i have been told by people far closer to things than I am.

Regarding Southern Spars, they are a great company, but somebody built a set of AC50 foils for ETNZ that failed. We don't know if that failure was due to manufacturing or design, but surely whoever made them had a hand in both. The biggest thing I find strange is that after a failure, surely ETNZ would want to test the new foils properly and well enough in advance to come up with plan b if needed.

The rumour I heard was that ETNZ made the foils in-house.

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19 minutes ago, desprit said:

The rumour I heard was that ETNZ made the foils in-house.

Nah Southern Spars.

 

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