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Presuming Ed

New 2 handed boat from Rondar.

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http://www.cirrusrace.com/icon

New Rondar 2-crew boat

The new Rondar boat can be seen at the Southampton Boat Show in early September and if you are lucky you might just see it in advance and unofficially as it completes its rig development on the water !

We are giving little away just yet prior to its US launch - not even its name. It has been a long time coming but when you see it you might understand. Very light, easily driven, surprisingly simple but highly refined and a joy to sail. All of the lessons, technical and commercial, learnt with the pre-curser Icon have been incorporated but it is rather different as some significant changes do feature. Unlike Icon it is now produced in 100% epoxy and the boat is stiffer and lighter still - that little we can reveal now ! We have therefore been able to raise the boom a slightly based on feedback and reduce the sail plan without an impact on performance.

Further information on this new boat will be released in the UK following completion of the on-water development programme just prior to its introduction.

 

post-419-0-74195000-1464377858_thumb.jpg

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understand they don't want to share to much but:

 

trapeze ?

spinnaker ?

aiming at what sailors ?

 

If its per-cursor is icon - likely no trap/spin. Think a better v15/tasar but potentially cheaper than Zim 15? That's my hope. Medium athletic, real racing, couples dingy?

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Doesn't look like other fat assed wide bodies. Looks like a throwback

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Shouldn't a name and some renderings be part of the scheme?

 

 

 

edit- but I guess it isn't the typical vapourware model we see on SA

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Looks like a National 12 hullshape.

 

*cough* - try NS14. Based on an old Flight 24 design.

 

2008-01-17_112343_ns4.jpg

 

There was a guy who tried to get NS14's going in the UK -- and they ended up with that design. Looks like they fattened up the bow a fair bit.

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Oh - and this isn't new.

 

The Icon has been kicking around for a couple of years... looks like they're trying to relaunch.

 

see here

 

Having sailed an Icon I can say it is a very nice boat to sail. Surprisingly fast for a 2 sail boat and very simple in terms of rigging and boat set up and carries weight well.

 

I think the US boat will be different though but based on the Icon. I know the guy who developed it has been working very closely with Rondar on this for a while.

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Considering the raging success of the highly under-marketed Zim 15, I won't hold my breath.

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Considering the raging success of the highly under-marketed Zim 15, I won't hold my breath.

 

Zackly.

 

My guess is that they spent their budget on the boats themselves and had none left for promoting. I bet if you packed up 3 of those and hit the regatta circuit, you'd win some converts with every trip.

 

FB- Doug

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Well to go off on a secant the Zim was obviously well designed, they got some boats out there to the target audience since it was the Team race national championship boat. So a lot of sailors in the target audience would have seen the boat and the reports weren't unfavorable but outside of that, crickets.

 

The Icon is likely to be a similar type of boat aimed for the same type of sailor. Steve Clarke has gone on record here about how the Zim and the Icon are different and yeah surely they are but they'd be going for the exactly same market IMHO. I reckon the Zim has the advantage in being a few inches longer to carry Usanian fatties and has a few more square feet of sail area but both are lightweight, tactical, dangle pole dinghies... I dunno what the marketing approach is going to be here because AFAIK Cirrus doesn't currently market a boat in the US. But I think they'll find it more difficult than in the UK

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zim is a shit boat by the way. we had them at tufts for a while and they are shit, not faster than the old larks and no where near as stable. They should have made a slightly smaller tasar and they would have sold boats.

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Nice clean looking boat, does the dangle pole live on the clew full time?

 

On the one i sailed it was permanently attached and used on all points of sail except close hauled.

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zim is a shit boat by the way. we had them at tufts for a while and they are shit, not faster than the old larks and no where near as stable. They should have made a slightly smaller tasar and they would have sold boats.

I've commented on what i think about the Zim as a boat (I haven't sailed one) re it's features here many times so that's not my intent. My point was just to say that if the company (Cirrus) marketing the Icon isn't willing to go all in they might as well not bother bringing it to US else the boat will end up a failure like the Zim.

 

TBH I can't figure why anyone would bother with a boat type (main and jib tactical) that already has many classes in the US and many of them with strong adherents when there is a boat segment, strongly represented in most other countries, that has few entrants here. But that's a horse to be beat in a different thread

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Came across this from Oct 14 on the Y&Y forum

 

http://www.yachtsandyachting.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=11689&PID=1372677&title=zim-15#1372677

 

Anyway Rondar are also very active in the US already building the 'Club 420' and Firefly for that market with growing success (they also have production facilities there as well as in the UK now). Their involvement with Icon now is to produce a derivative suited to this common generic market - so 'ruggedised', higher boom, 2-piece mast .. and the potential to carry asymetric (and trapeze - so echoes of the NS/MG14 family). It can be offered in 2 and 3 sail forms and at lower cost than our current 2 sail version here. The spin-off for us is that we will also get our hulls from January built strictly to our (lower) weight and durability specifications and with our regular rig. The Rondar Icon new version will be offered here by both Cirrus and Rondar (plus others/agents) but built for the UK to our standard weight and 2-sail specification, and all at a very commercially attractive price - (and I guess still with our rather 'plain' sails - except for match racing !)

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Assym and no trap would work here IMHO for mixed crew. Less wind here and we're fatter so trap's not needed

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They're looking for suggestions for a new name.

 

http://www.cirrusrace.com/icon

 

1st July 2016 - So what's in a name ? Well we are asking YOU now now. Come up with a name we subsequently adopt and there will be a modest gift available plus a bottle of decent 'bubbly' on offer. The problem is that some on the US distribution side did not like our 'provisional' name and ... well we did not take to their initial naming ideas either ! (including the name 'Bandit' .... one that would surely carry a bit of distracting 'baggage' this side of the Atlantic ....)

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They're looking for suggestions for a new name. http://www.cirrusrace.com/icon

1st July 2016 - So what's in a name ? Well we are asking YOU now now. Come up with a name we subsequently adopt and there will be a modest gift available plus a bottle of decent 'bubbly' on offer. The problem is that some on the US distribution side did not like our 'provisional' name and ... well we did not take to their initial naming ideas either ! (including the name 'Bandit' .... one that would surely carry a bit of distracting 'baggage' this side of the Atlantic ....)

Pity they don't give you a link to actually enter a name!!

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zim is a shit boat by the way. we had them at tufts for a while and they are shit, not faster than the old larks and no where near as stable. They should have made a slightly smaller tasar and they would have sold boats.

Actual report from Ken Legler attached.

SurveyMonkey Ken Legler Response - Tufts Zim 15 Debrief.pdf

In my opinion this does not support your conclusion.

Consider also that Ken has been perfecting the Lark for Mystic Lakes for 30 years.

So he has some interest in confirming that the Tufts Lark is still better than any other option.

And it may well be the perfect boat for Mystic Lakes. But we had a larger goal than just that.

and only lost down wind due to crew inexperience with some of the handling features of the boat.

Th e largest identified deficiency was in gybing, where the complication of the battened jib, and dangle pole seems to have challenged the crews, that and the fast that the tall rig and narrower beam waterline meant that you had to be a little more nuanced in roll gybing.

Oh dear, the boat is a little bit more challenging than a standard college dinghy.

All I have heard for the last 20 years is that college dinghies suck because they aren't sophisticated enough to reward tuning and aren't challenging enough to sail.

Ken's largest objections were the fact that the boat has a double bottom and the price. He has a brick wall in his head about keeping the crew's feet wet and hands cold bailing. Hardly a condemnation of the design.

 

If there is constructive dialogue to be had about making the Zim 15 better, I am willing to engage. The boat has been sailed in two Hinman regattas and several other smaller events. Feed back has been positive from the sailors, but this has not converted into any sales.

The company formerly known as Vanguard has left the building and seems poised to become even less responsive to the needs of their customers. I think the Zim 15 is the boat that should fill the void.

SHC

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What was his problem gybing the boat with the dangly pole? Didn't understand that bit at all.

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Dangle poles are virtually 'automatic' surely ? So much easier than a regular jib stick .. and so much more efficient. The key is to ensure they are exactly the right length to suit the boat/sail plan and that the elastic 'fly-away' is just right. That's it really - sailing with them is a complete doddle and only needs a few minutes to learn. If people are finding it 'difficult' something must be wrong somewhere .... 'unfamiliar' at first maybe but never difficult.

 

In the UK virtually all 2-sail classes now have the option ranging from the venerable Enterprise, the N12's who popularised them, Albacores and just about you name it.... and Icon of course. The exception here that might benefit as well is the Tasar .... but they seem to be partially lodged in the 70's with their 'international' rules still !

 

Offer a traditonal jib-stick instead and see how long it takes before they realise it might just be worth learning something (hardly by now really) .... new. (At least the crew cannot throw the pole over the side even if you are not bothered about the other benefits !!) :)

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I'm disappointed by the quality of writing of a coach at an exclusive university. Aside from that, it shows (IMHO) that people will say they want something but when you give it to them (and they have to pay for it) then they say they don't want it/can't afford it. Colleges deserve bottom of the barrel bumper boats they currently sail because of their conservative mindset... MIT (yes the Massachusetts Institute of Technology!) has upgraded the antediluvian abomination known as the Tech Dinghy using carbon fiber and now the boat costs $11K when they could've probably gotten something to meet the same requirements from Topper for less dosh. Funny thing is they shill their alumni for donations for boats but if I were a well heeled potential donor I'd want to get value for my money. With that attitude colleges should just spring for Topaz Argos and leave decent boats like the Zim to adults who have paychecks.

 

 

 

zim is a shit boat by the way. we had them at tufts for a while and they are shit, not faster than the old larks and no where near as stable. They should have made a slightly smaller tasar and they would have sold boats.


If there is constructive dialogue to be had about making the Zim 15 better, I am willing to engage. The boat has been sailed in two Hinman regattas and several other smaller events. Feed back has been positive from the sailors, but this has not converted into any sales.

The company formerly known as Vanguard has left the building and seems poised to become even less responsive to the needs of their customers. I think the Zim 15 is the boat that should fill the void.

SHC

 

Steve, what kind of marketing has Zim done to get the word out about the boat? No offense to US Ailing but much of the sailing world or at least the sailing US doesn't know diddly about the Hinman regatta. I still think with a kite the boat could have the kind impact in our market that the RS400 had in England.

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Speng: you have mentioned marketing again and again, often critically suggesting that there hasn't been enough of it.

Zim has taken the 15 to boat shows, participated in the Boat of the Year contests, built 24 units to be used by the Hinman ( no joke in $ committed) and gotten editorial mention in sailing magazines. They have hired dedicated marketing people to manage the introduction of the class. In short, all of the usual things to put the boat in front of the customer. Zim's VP of Sales is Bob Adam, who used to work for me at Vanguard and is possibly the best small boat sales person in the US.

Introducing one designs is tricky because you need a fleet in order to make the value proposition of a one design racing class. No one really wants to take the risk of being the first couple on the dance floor, Zim is a small well run company, who cannot afford to spend limitless capital on marketing and prototypes. In general, the sailing industry is not profitable enough to make big strategic moves, They cannot, for example, give away 100 boats to seed the fleet.

 

It is very easy for designers to blame the marketplace when a product fails to sell. After all, we have invested our talent and done the work, and it is both emotionally painful and financially damaging when that effort is not rewarded. It is more mature to think that the product and the market are not in sync, and to try to understand why and if possible make changes to bring the market and product together.

SHC

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Dangle poles are virtually 'automatic' surely ? So much easier than a regular jib stick .. and so much more efficient. The key is to ensure they are exactly the right length to suit the boat/sail plan and that the elastic 'fly-away' is just right. That's it really - sailing with them is a complete doddle and only needs a few minutes to learn. If people are finding it 'difficult' something must be wrong somewhere .... 'unfamiliar' at first maybe but never difficult.

 

In the UK virtually all 2-sail classes now have the option ranging from the venerable Enterprise, the N12's who popularised them, Albacores and just about you name it.... and Icon of course. The exception here that might benefit as well is the Tasar .... but they seem to be partially lodged in the 70's with their 'international' rules still !

 

Offer a traditonal jib-stick instead and see how long it takes before they realise it might just be worth learning something (hardly by now really) .... new. (At least the crew cannot throw the pole over the side even if you are not bothered about the other benefits !!) :)

most of us in the states (or, in other words, all of college sailing) forgoes any sort of jib sheet support aside from the crew's arm. So, i would assume, the concept of using them in a dinghy was completely foreign to everyone. It would be for me.

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So how do you go about marketing a new class in the US?

 

Seems to me all the major vehicles we have in the UK are absent, and you have a much more conservative sailing population plus, from what I can make out, a much smaller active dinghy sailing base and a "adults sail with lead poisoning" culture . No National show, no major handicap events, huge distances, do you have a national dinghy oriented magazine? Seems one mighty big challenge.

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yeah pretty much. there are a few pockets, but nothing like the impression i get of what you have in the UK. Certainly no where near the diversity of fleets.

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most of us in the states (or, in other words, all of college sailing) forgoes any sort of jib sheet support aside from the crew's arm. So, i would assume, the concept of using them in a dinghy was completely foreign to everyone. It would be for me.

 

Errr ... wow .... 'each to their own' perhaps but learning 'new' stuff is what life is all about really - it can even be fun. We all have to adapt, adjust our views from time to time and continually learn in the world. When you stop being curious and learning new stuff .... or being prepared to challenge 'accepted' views, your own views as well as others, 'progress' simply stops.

 

Imagine it this way ... some 'modernist' ties a piece of line between the bottom of his mast and his boom in the old days .. he gives it the unlikely name of 'kicker' or 'vang' and now seems to go a bit faster. Do we 1) ignore as 'not invented here' so obviously not needed 2) Imply they are a technological 'deviant' or 'taking unfair advantage' 3) Ask them all about it and experiment yourself.

 

Jib sticks or 'dangle poles' are simple, low cost and very efficient.... just give them a go ! Nothing says you have to use one if you really find it all too challenging but heck go on .... just try it.

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most of us in the states (or, in other words, all of college sailing) forgoes any sort of jib sheet support aside from the crew's arm. So, i would assume, the concept of using them in a dinghy was completely foreign to everyone. It would be for me.

 

Errr ... wow .... 'each to their own' perhaps but learning 'new' stuff is what life is all about really - it can even be fun. We all have to adapt, adjust our views from time to time and continually learn in the world. When you stop being curious and learning new stuff .... or being prepared to challenge 'accepted' views, your own views as well as others, 'progress' simply stops.

 

Imagine it this way ... some 'modernist' ties a piece of line between the bottom of his mast and his boom in the old days .. he gives it the unlikely name of 'kicker' or 'vang' and now seems to go a bit faster. Do we 1) ignore as 'not invented here' so obviously not needed 2) Imply they are a technological 'deviant' or 'taking unfair advantage' 3) Ask them all about it and experiment yourself.

 

Jib sticks or 'dangle poles' are simple, low cost and very efficient.... just give them a go ! Nothing says you have to use one if you really find it all too challenging but heck go on .... just try it.

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hey now, i didnt say i wouldnt try it, i said what we're used to. When you show to an event with chartered boats and no practice, it makes things a little more complicated when you throw new technology in. No experience with these boats, though. Personally i would never pay money for a two person boat without a spinnaker and trapeze, but thats me. i like going fast, not incrementally less slow.

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Personally i would never pay money for a two person boat without a spinnaker and trapeze, but thats me. i like going fast, not incrementally less slow.

While I also worship all things trapiezey and overpowered, I'd argue that both the Z15 and the Icon? (i added the question mark to the old name as my proposed new name. I hear they're taking suggestions) can't just turn into skiffs. 14s, 49ers, 29ers and to a certain strange extent 505s and 470s already exist in that space. They sell as well as they sell. We can't complain about market fracturing and then simultaneously Christmas-tree add-ons onto new boats until they essentially compete for a filled niche. I would frankly argue that the 15 does for the college dinghy what the Aero does for the laser type. It lightens the hull, adds stiffness, significantly amps up but doesn't fundamentally challenge the sailplan and rig. One might assume that the similarity of value proposition would carry over into similar sales volumes. Not the case. As my dad discovered back in the dawn of time when they started making club 420s, selling to individuals and selling to institutions are two wholly different affairs. The motives and considerations of the individual customer aren't the same as those of an institution. That more than anything, as I see it, is the barrier for this type of deluxe doublehanded team racer. It strikes the North American market where it is both strongest and least open to change. To this day, the durability and simplicity argument of the 420 is too potent to resist.

 

DRC

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hey now, i didnt say i wouldnt try it, i said what we're used to. When you show to an event with chartered boats and no practice, it makes things a little more complicated when you throw new technology in. No experience with these boats, though. Personally i would never pay money for a two person boat without a spinnaker and trapeze, but thats me. i like going fast, not incrementally less slow.

 

Not that complicated really. Even a self confessed numpty like me can learn to use one pretty quickly. On the Icon I used it on all legs except upwind. I am sure Blaze720 will tell me it should have been in use upwind though ....

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hey now, i didnt say i wouldnt try it, i said what we're used to. When you show to an event with chartered boats and no practice, it makes things a little more complicated when you throw new technology in. No experience with these boats, though. Personally i would never pay money for a two person boat without a spinnaker and trapeze, but thats me. i like going fast, not incrementally less slow.

 

Not that complicated really. Even a self confessed numpty like me can learn to use one pretty quickly. On the Icon I used it on all legs except upwind. I am sure Blaze720 will tell me it should have been in use upwind though ....

Try sailing a scow in a bit of breeze, in the boat shown in my avatar we have hit over 24 knots in flat water in 30 knots, 10 second average almost 23 knots. Not all 2 sail non trapeze boats are slow, and some excell in certain conditions

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There is something rather satisfying in beating (often relatively over-canvassed) craft with something a bit more subtle and less powerful but uber-refined. Make it light, very easily driven and refined and you simply don't need lots of 'additional' sail area, expense or complexity. It means you can take almost anyone out racing, beginers, large, small, old, young, novice, expert, or whatever and bring them back smiling ...... and keen to get out there again as soon as possible. Not for everyone, granted, but get it totally right and these type of boats are a joy.

 

But then we are a bit biased ..... But we want YOU to try one soon and make up your own mind .... :)

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Hopefully enough to make the boat go in a raging 4 kt breeze. Cause that's what a lot of us sail in during the summer. The UK Portsmouth seems reasonably quick but a two sail boat in light air (on a w/l course) downwind can be a snooze-fest especially in a mixed fleet which is where it will be for some time even if the OD fleets catch on

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Blaze720, What is the sail area of the Rondar 'Icon' compared to the Cirrus Icon?

 

The new all epoxy Rondar boat is fairly different to 'Icon' although there are some visual similarities. It does carry a smaller sailplan as well as has been confirmed previously and features both a higher boom as well as reduced overall mast height. The full specification is very closely tailored to feedback sought and received by Rondar in N.America where they have both manufacturing and distribution channels already. Inital production will commence in the UK for N.America and the US spec boat will, in parallel, also be trialed in the UK for potential introduction there and very possibly mainland Europe in time.

 

No doubt when ready Rondar will confirm the full specification ..... and yes the name as well !

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What the...? Something wrong with my "Quote" function. I was asking this question of Major Tom.

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What the...? Something wrong with my "Quote" function. I was asking this question of Major Tom.

Sonnet scow, South African design, 4.375m long, 75 kg hull weight including all fittings and centerboard, 9.7m2 sail area main and jib, hull construction vacuumed foam sandwich, 10mm hull core, 8mm deck. A bit boring in light breeze but will do over 9 knots upwind in 22 knots in flat water and sails apparent wind angles off wind in big breeze. Optimum crew weight is about 135 kg, but our top speeds have been done with closer to 169 kg on board as the apparent wind moves foreward so far. As we often have over 30 knots in the afternoons during summer this is a great boat for our local conditions, would however be a bit boring up country, but saying that a mate of mine has put a 10m2 assym on his boat and is getting 16 knots in 12 to 14 knots of breeze on a reach.

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Cirrus have taken down the web page for a boat they no longer sell, but which is planned to be launched in a different format in a different market by a different company. I don't think I'd want to read too much into that!

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I can report that Rondar have not responded to my suggested name of "Wiltshire Crabber". 

This is a shame because a great deal of thought went into the suggestion and the name performed very well in beta test and quantitative polling. It has very strong marketing allure. 

Obviously if I don't hear from Rondar soon, I will have to protect my interest and start accepting calls from Zim.

 

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14 hours ago, Blaze720 said:

Mambo .... 

It seems you might just have be using a political polling methodology in respect of your naming conclusions (always correct - right ?) - just don't be tempted to start any sort of business using the same approach.   Apppreciate the thought though,   Anyway perhaps you can talk now with Zim ...    Keep us posted   ;-)

 

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1 minute ago, sosoomii said:

There's a reason for that...  Looks good though!

Would disagree with you on that one as it appears to have a centre-board, where is the bloody dagger board???

MEGA-sigh! :blink:

 

Fish

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It would be interesting to know the sail area and how high it floats when on its side after a capsize. If the centreboard is not close to the water then I would not be impressed at all. Never did get to see that for the original version. 

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Oh no! Not another shiny new thing for sailors to drool over.

Is there no respect for traditional boats any more?

I am sticking to my good old RS Aero. It may be ancient compared to this year's new boats, but it has a proud history.

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Looks like a Aussie Manly Graduate (NS-14 hull).

You are absolutely right  - It is loosely related but that is another story - but it is larger at 6'4" x 14'9"  (1.93m x 4.49m) is a pure hiker in this form and as already stated it has a centreboard.  A fair bit more volume is involved to carry a regular sized crew (though racing snakes can depower it fine if they must !).  It still has an incredibly easily driven hull character so does not need a vast amount of sail to get a good wiggle on - in any wind.  We are still working on the rig but the helm balance is great already so it is all about attention to detail and refining it now.   It can 'point' up plate glass if needed ...But no rushing this bit it has got to be as good on all points of sailing - far too many developers have done so in the past and sometimes it well .... definately 'shows'.     Inevitably a 'slow burner' for sure , but there are few short cuts to this stage, however it is looking like all the time and effort is nicely coming together now.

You will know when we are finished but not too much more will be released in the meantime ....

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11 hours ago, tillerman said:

Oh no! Not another shiny new thing for sailors to drool over.

Is there no respect for traditional boats any more?

I am sticking to my good old RS Aero. It may be ancient compared to this year's new boats, but it has a proud history.

I'm sticking with my Nethercott and my '73 Rondar 505...

 

Quoth Blaze720:  "Looks like a Aussie Manly Graduate (NS-14 hull)."

You are absolutely right  - It is loosely related but that is another story <SNIP>

We used to have two NS/MG 14s in our local dinghy racing series. V15, JY,, Laser II and some others.  The NS was quite slippery. We had a lot of great back and forth with the V15--even though the NS had less sail area.

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