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      Abbreviated rules   07/28/2017

      Underdawg did an excellent job of explaining the rules.  Here's the simplified version: Don't insinuate Pedo.  Warning and or timeout for a first offense.  PermaFlick for any subsequent offenses Don't out members.  See above for penalties.  Caveat:  if you have ever used your own real name or personal information here on the forums since, like, ever - it doesn't count and you are fair game. If you see spam posts, report it to the mods.  We do not hang out in every thread 24/7 If you see any of the above, report it to the mods by hitting the Report button in the offending post.   We do not take action for foul language, off-subject content, or abusive behavior unless it escalates to persistent stalking.  There may be times that we might warn someone or flick someone for something particularly egregious.  There is no standard, we will know it when we see it.  If you continually report things that do not fall into rules #1 or 2 above, you may very well get a timeout yourself for annoying the Mods with repeated whining.  Use your best judgement. Warnings, timeouts, suspensions and flicks are arbitrary and capricious.  Deal with it.  Welcome to anarchy.   If you are a newbie, there are unwritten rules to adhere to.  They will be explained to you soon enough.  
JMOD

new mini, who says it needs to be beautifull

233 posts in this topic

looks purpose built. Not very pretty, but pretty cool none the less.

 

more pictures and stories here:

 

https://www.facebook.com/notes/team-lalou-multi-lalou-roucayrol/le-mini-650-arkema-3-mise-à-leau-dun-bateau-révolutionnaire/1040310426057308

 

2016-06-16_6-44-49-620x350.jpg

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Interesting rig. Is that the first soft wing sail on the class?

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Can't see the top of the rig, but how do you reef and keep the forestay connected?

 

Foils and a wing sail... Is it fast?

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Looks like an Uffa Fox design

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Unlike the IMOCA 60's with their Dali foils that don't foil(foil assist only), this boat has rudder T-foils, a necessary ingredient for foiling-so it might actually foil.....

More power to them!

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They have my respect for trying, but that wing looks pretty far from having an advantage over classic mains in terms of lift and drag. Hope they get it sorted.

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Unlike the IMOCA 60's with their Dali foils that don't foil(foil assist only), this boat has rudder T-foils, a necessary ingredient for foiling-so it might actually foil.....

More power to them!

Just had a closer look at the picture and the more interesting feature are actually the canting foils!

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Canting and retractable, agree on that sail, that needs some ironing out ...

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making the panels crosscut will not work. The panels should be built to match the wing structure.

being restricted to polyester makes this tough. Contender makes a poly code zero cloth thats woven poly taffeta on a poly mono film.

it would make a very stable poly cloth, ( class legal) that would work well along with a better cloth pattern to smooth out the wing.

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That the forestay moves side to side along with the sprit is a little interesting too

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Once you go to foils, why persist with the scow bow?

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Once you go to foils, why persist with the scow bow?

because the way stability is limited in the class the more form stability your hull has the more added stability you can generate by canting the keel. Your ballast is limited such that in the worst load case (ie keel fully canted etc) you can only lean over 10 degrees. if you have a wide platform with a lot of form stability it will take more ballast or cant to achieve this. So its a win-win with regards to vessel power.

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Yes, but once the foils are deployed, the form stability forward is irrelevant. I am not talking about skinny boats, just no need for the bulk forward

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Yes, but once the foils are deployed, the form stability forward is irrelevant. I am not talking about skinny boats, just no need for the bulk forward

 

there is still lighter air

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In lighter airs wouldn't you want to maximise water line length whilst reducing wetted surface area. Not sure the scow delivers this.

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Looks like an Uffa Fox design

How do you work that out. This is a bit more Uffa Foxy.

 

Flying-15-FF-Wood-Yacht-Restoration-7.jp

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In lighter airs wouldn't you want to maximise water line length whilst reducing wetted surface area. Not sure the scow delivers this.

Mini transat is across the Bay of Biscay in Autumn, then downwind across the Atlantic. Light winds not the main priority, I would think.

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Looks like an Uffa Fox design

 

How do you work that out. This is a bit more Uffa Foxy.

 

Flying-15-FF-Wood-Yacht-Restoration-7.jp

Well, to be fair, so is this

 

img_20150707_1706461561.jpg

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How many scow bow minis are there now? And have any of them gone head to head yet?

 

Are there any more details about rig around?

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How many scow bow minis are there now? And have any of them gone head to head yet?

 

Are there any more details about rig around?

Two original scow designed by Raison who get the credits for this evolution or creationism.

http://www.histoiredeshalfs.com/Histoire%20des%20Minis/747.htm

http://www.histoiredeshalfs.com/Histoire%20des%20Minis/865.htm

Then Froggy from sailor Koster, forgot who designed it. Had kind of foily daggerboards.

http://www.histoiredeshalfs.com/Histoire%20des%20Minis/888.htm

 

And this is nr 4.

 

The 865 and 888 raced each other a few times, the Raison is fast.

For instance the Mini Mai just sailed:

http://yb.tl/mem2016?ignoreUA=true

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Also made with recyclable resin as well.

 

 

Which is the key behind the budget: part of the launching campaign for recyclable resins by Arkema.

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This is a very cool project.

Majorly innovative design and construction.

Looks high budget. Great rig. Well thought out foils. Movable forestay.

 

Is the skipper a well regarded talent? Another Gabart in the making?

My heart wants this to go incredibly well - concerned that there are almost too many new things that need some proper field testing to realise their potential.

The foils need lots of usable power and soft wingsails have that potential - but some recuts are the order of the day. The lack of shrouds allow proper overlapping headsails once again - maybe even narrow sheeting on of Code Zeros.

 

This new resin Elium seems to be a major advance in terms of recyclability and might actually address the elephant in the room that nobody has ever dealt with - what do you do with Old High Tech Raceboats? Think about how this could be used in lots of fleets (AC, VOR, IMOCA, or Olympic) to be able to say that they are cutting edge technology, performance AND recyclable - cant use the R word much at the moment.... Good stuff by Arkema

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Impressive stuffs, Arkema.

 

One thing I miss is hemp fiber. Itd make things more recyclable.

 

I hope to see more scow boats which are clearly faster. That's the future!

 

Foils make conventional hull shape irrelevant (without losing ability to track through course).

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This new resin Elium seems to be a major advance in terms of recyclability and might actually address the elephant in the room that nobody has ever dealt with - what do you do with Old High Tech Raceboats? Think about how this could be used in lots of fleets (AC, VOR, IMOCA, or Olympic) to be able to say that they are cutting edge technology, performance AND recyclable - cant use the R word much at the moment.... Good stuff by Arkema

Not just high tech. Monolithic glass and polyester boats are hardly paragons of greenery.

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Do you think we will start seeing narrower mini's taking advantage of the foils like Hugo Boss?

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yep foils canting and retractable, though I do not think you play much with the canting. You will find the sweet cant spot and stick to it. Reminds me of the longitudinal movable keel, was mostly at one position.

But what is that little protrusion under the canting system... And why that black spot behind the 9 number. Does not seems to be a feature of the layout.

 

Construction, to be able to melt parts together is interesting.

And proof of recycling; after the finish it should be recycled, how would that process work ?

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Do you think we will start seeing narrower mini's taking advantage of the foils like Hugo Boss?

Not without a rule change. The rules demand as much static stability as possible because it's the limiting factor in how much canting RM you can have. The more form stability the more canting RM. So every bit of form stability counts.

 

The foils only generate RM while moving so any stability they provide simply isn't counted under the rule.

 

 

The canting RM also helps in light air, when you can can't to leeward to help heel the boat over and get the hull out of the water.

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But what is that little protrusion under the canting system... And why that black spot behind the 9 number. Does not seems to be a feature of the layout.

Look like graphics to me. The black spot is an eye - and the grey dot a contrast to the red dots further forward.

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Thanks Ed, now I see it.

Graphic department must got worried by the nickname of Kosters boat, Froggy is to sweet, shark is better LOL

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Do you think we will start seeing narrower mini's taking advantage of the foils like Hugo Boss?

The high buoyancy bows on some of the Imocas is mainly to prevent the boat from diving, whilst on the minis it also adds RM. At least with the current rules/technology, the boats will mostly be in full or semi deplacement mode

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neat ideas, the dual headstay is unusual. Guessing the jib is masthead for main reefing?

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No, Headstay is to a fractional take off - see the pics at the top of the thread.

 

Good eyes LeoV - but is that "bump" under the dagger case articulation real, or just another bit of Graphics that looks 3D?

Without the time to look elsewhere it looks suspiciously like a sibling of the smallest red sphere just above the case fairing at the front...... possibly ?

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And how will the windinstruments work on a mast setup like this, and running lights ?

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Don't multis use a rudder rotation sensor on the mast to add/subtract mast rotation to wind measurement?

 

Probably the easiest way with the lights would be to have red over green (360°) at the masthead and sidelights - IRPCS 25c.

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Correct Ed about the multi, imocas and minis with rotating spar using a sensor, easy to do. but that foil is hinged rotating. Maybe a bit more tricky to get a sensor to work.

The red over green lights is a good one.

Overall a minor problem I reckon :)

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Btw the mini Fastnet is on. Check the YB app

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Correct Ed about the multi, imocas and minis with rotating spar using a sensor, easy to do. but that foil is hinged rotating. Maybe a bit more tricky to get a sensor to work.

The red over green lights is a good one.

Overall a minor problem I reckon :)

Actually, it looks like there's a black mast up the middle of the forward foil. Which doesn't, AFAICS, need to turn. So simplifies instruments and lights,

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Ed, i think the mast part rotoates, but I can be wrong. NOt experienced with this kind of setups :)

Ps lover your classic.

13412097_1040312212723796_79237583563218

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No, Headstay is to a fractional take off - see the pics at the top of the thread.

 

Good eyes LeoV - but is that "bump" under the dagger case articulation real, or just another bit of Graphics that looks 3D?

 

Without the time to look elsewhere it looks suspiciously like a sibling of the smallest red sphere just above the case fairing at the front...... possibly ?

Site shows masthead, which it has to be for reefing.

Wish I'd known about the red over green a year ago.

Amazing the way they plane.

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Ian Lipinski on the Scow Proto has won the Mini Fastnet Line but the overall winners must be the Horde of Pogo 3 series boats in a Pursuit Pack

4773-672x372.jpg

6877-672x372.jpg

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Interestingly Beaudart who won the proto last year, was first in series class this year. Wonder if he lacked funding to continue sailing proto

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Or to prove he is best whether class.

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Ian was in series for wins and now in Proto win

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A few scow questions for people.

Do you think a fixed keel version of maximum would work? Would still have water ballast but for offshore only

I know you can't cant the keel to leeward in the light to reduce wetted area by heeling the boat. I know that Remi Fermin (741) went very well with his fixed keel glass boat.

What I'm getting at is if you are going to do most of your racing around the bay (legs usually between 1-4NM) would you loose to much by having a fixed keel. Also not racing class.

The next option would be to have a single dagger-board on the center line with a canting keel rather than twin boards.

Looking at 741 it looks like a good light simple boat. This seems to perform better than a complex boat.

It's always hard just looking at results with the skipper being such a big part of a boat performance.

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And how will the windinstruments work on a mast setup like this, and running lights ?

 

Certainly ,Same system than on the multihull with rotating mast since a long time

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Interesting rig. Is that the first soft wing sail on the class?

 

 

On the class , yes .

A lot of years ago , a friend of mine in Antibes ( France ) has designed , builtand rigged himself a spectacular small trimaran with a soft wing

 

96f52f494900906.jpg 354943494900911.jpg fc7571494900913.jpg 225f59494900914.jpg e88885494900916.jpg

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It would, but you would wind up with a heavier bulb to achieve the same righting moment, whereas if you're doing buoy racing it is simple enough to pin the keel centerline and keep the boards up.

 

Single dagger board has been proposed as a fast solution, but it isn't as efficient as having asym boards, and not much heavier.

 

The weight and complexity of a classic canter seems to be worth it, although the ultra-complex "3D" keels have fallen out of use, and time will tell if canting foils/soft wings will stay in the class.

 

HW

 

A few scow questions for people.

Do you think a fixed keel version of maximum would work? Would still have water ballast but for offshore only

I know you can't cant the keel to leeward in the light to reduce wetted area by heeling the boat. I know that Remi Fermin (741) went very well with his fixed keel glass boat.

What I'm getting at is if you are going to do most of your racing around the bay (legs usually between 1-4NM) would you loose to much by having a fixed keel. Also not racing class.

The next option would be to have a single dagger-board on the center line with a canting keel rather than twin boards.

Looking at 741 it looks like a good light simple boat. This seems to perform better than a complex boat.

It's always hard just looking at results with the skipper being such a big part of a boat performance.

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SAS 2016 start video but they are now out in the Nth Atlantic after sneaking around shipping lane Lipinski doing 14knts the rest doing 8-11

 

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Damn, it is still fugly as all hell.

It sure is. You are never gunna pull a girl owning that no matter how thick your French accent is.

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It's notable that there are only two boats in the proto class compared to the series class which had 20 starters.

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http://lessables-lesacores650.com/

 

damn only 2 protos, thats fucked up for innovation that comes from an open class. Last time in 2014 11 protos. Seems the serie evolved to a boat that to many people like ... so the success for one group is the nail in the coffin for the other.

 

And its one of the best races, long distance, nice islands, a sail back. No return transport costs. Takes a month or so in time.

Starts in right period too :)

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I should try that too. :)

 

Ian Lippinski did almpst 300nm in 24 hours.

 

Well done, Ian!

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I wonder if an off-center tack for the jib would be fast on a scow bow. Tack to leeward bow to open the slot when sailing upwind? I know many rules require headsails to be tacked on center line but who cares about rules anyway?

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I wonder if an off-center tack for the jib would be fast on a scow bow. Tack to leeward bow to open the slot when sailing upwind? I know many rules require headsails to be tacked on center line but who cares about rules anyway?

 

I've thought about that too. Having spent a lot of time upwind in a proa with headsails to leeward I think it's worth investigating for sure. Scow would be the platform for it. However the Arkema boat looks like it has a lot on already in experimentation land.

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Hey Ryan, I'd heard that Jzerro maybe benefits from the main being above centerline of the leeward hull. Can you tell us any more about your experience / sheeting angle etc.?

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In Jzerro's case it's kind of a happy accident, as the shrouds are to leeward to act as shrouds. It also allows tighter jib sheeting angles without closing the slot as much. For the scow, I'd be inclined to set it up for central forestay while doing the shorter races, and all mini races start with a windward mark rounding, but it would be neat to see a leeward forestay for long beats across Biscay. Again, Arkema has bitten off a lot of variables to figure out. IMO it will take years for that boat to get up to 100% speed as it's set up already. I'm glad to see them taking it on though. Beaucoup balls.

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Thanks Ryan, I think you meant "the stays are to leeward to act as shrouds" as can be seen in your avatar with the mast set to the left of the main hull, but it's interesting to hear you confirm the effect. It seems like a pretty low cost / simple way to improve performance to weather in many cases, such as:

-scow mini on long ocean beats

-any multihull on a long beat (tack to the leeward bow?)

-maybe storm jibs taken to the leeward rail instead of a padeye on the foredeck centerline to fight your way off a lee shore or to the favored quadrant of a storm

Old school wire stays would obviously be too complicated to move but a synthetic bolt rope with a well designed jib and maybe a halyard lock and/or mulitpart Cunningham could be pretty practical

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You've kind of lost me with the "forestay to leeward improving windward performance" bit.

 

If you already have a jib with a good sheeting angle I can't see what benefit dropping the forstay would have.

 

You just rotate the lift vector more sideways or if you drop the sheeting point the same amount you just open up the slot down low.

 

It seems to me that rather than dropping the forestay you'd be better sheeting at tighter angles.

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Thanks Ryan, I think you meant "the stays are to leeward to act as shrouds" .

 

 

I did.

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I think it looks great. I'd love to know how much the rig, boom and sail weigh, compared to a classic rig. I cannot imagine it's anywhere near as light as some of the rigs I've seen (some of which were a little scary).

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Looks like a traveler on the bow with no other visible forestay attach point, so they can drop the forestay to leeward? Why does this help? Its like canting the rig to weather sortof, with respect to the headsail anyway. And we know weather heel/cant to weather is fast in many cases: Moths, multihull, windsurfer, UFO, etc. Presumably due to the lift vector and reduced upwash?

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Looks like a traveler on the bow with no other visible forestay attach point, so they can drop the forestay to leeward? Why does this help? Its like canting the rig to weather sortof, with respect to the headsail anyway. And we know weather heel/cant to weather is fast in many cases: Moths, multihull, windsurfer, UFO, etc. Presumably due to the lift vector and reduced upwash?

Don't know, but you may find some relevant information in these two papers on "Gap and stagger effects on biplanes with end plates": http://www.enu.kz/repository/2009/AIAA-2009-1085.pdf and http://enu.kz/repository/2009/AIAA-2009-1086.pdf. You can think of a sloop rig as a biplane with large stagger but, hard on the wind, a small gap. Kang et al report that both positive stagger (leeward foil ahead of windward foil) and larger gap improve performance. The traveler can increase the gap when close to the wind. Because of the "with end plates" part of the research, I don't know how well the results generalise to sailing boats.

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There's some more information here: http://www.seair.fr/

Not surprised that David Raison is involved with them.

 

They've got a different foil configuration on their website, but I think it might be an early rendering. Missing the T-foil rudders from above.

Seems like they have some experience building moth foils and booms. Interesting project.

 

magnum3D.jpeg

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And it looks like David Raison, the guy who enhanced the chine and scowbow, will be the skipper too. Hand him the trophy right now, rest will fight for second :)

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New Mini

 

Cx9XdWdWgAIcryF.jpg

Cx8UJoeXcAAg7HO.jpg

 

Pleased to say that this is the beginning of an ongoing collaboration for DSS with SeaAir, and foils derived from my Q23 developments.

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interestingly it still has the scow bow, so it doesn't completely rely on its foils

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interestingly it still has the scow bow, so it doesn't completely rely on its foils

Isn't this a re-foil of 747, the scow D. Raison won with in 2011?

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yes it is

and it won't fit in the mini rule for the moment

In the current rule the foils cant extend outside of the hull, but wasn't that about to change prior to the next mini transat?

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Seeing as there's some stagnation within the mini protos, how viable would it be for someone to take an old one (ie pre-scow) and put foils on it to refresh the boat?

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There's some more information here: http://www.seair.fr/

Not surprised that David Raison is involved with them.

 

They've got a different foil configuration on their website, but I think it might be an early rendering. Missing the T-foil rudders from above.

Seems like they have some experience building moth foils and booms. Interesting project.

 

magnum3D.jpeg

 

I thought the foils could not extand past max beam in the minis, they changed the rules ?

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Yeah, rule change: 2016

J-1 HULL

A Mini boat is a monohull, ie, a boat with only one flotation plane, regardless the angle of the heel between 0° and 95°, in which the depth of the hull in all its sections must not decrease in the direction of the axis of symmetry.

J-2 LENGTH

J-2-a The length of the hull must not exceed 6.50 meters.

J-2-b This measurement does not include:

- the rudders, their foils if there are, and their fittings,

- the bowspirit bobstay fittings,

- the equipment to produce electrical energy,

- the pushpits and pulpits,

- the windvane pilots,

- the safety hatch.

J-2-c No element added to the hull should allow its extension.

J-3 WIDTH

Without the boat healing, the beam must not exceed 3 meters.

J-20 APPENDAGES

The following are defined as appendages: rudders, daggerboards, foils, fin and any other device aspiring to create a hydrodynamic lift.

Appendages can increase the beam defined in J-3 once the start has been taken. However, the beam must not exceed 6,50 meters in the widest configuration.

Once the starting line has been crossed, appendages can increase the draft beyond the limit determined in J-4.

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Seeing as there's some stagnation within the mini protos, how viable would it be for someone to take an old one (ie pre-scow) and put foils on it to refresh the boat?

The Banque Pop team modified 198 as part of their validation process for the 60 which ALC is presently racing. Not sure if it was changed back after testing. There are some videos online of the boat

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Seeing as there's some stagnation within the mini protos, how viable would it be for someone to take an old one (ie pre-scow) and put foils on it to refresh the boat?

The Banque Pop team modified 198 as part of their validation process for the 60 which ALC is presently racing. Not sure if it was changed back after testing. There are some videos online of the boat

 

 

Thanks!, didn't know about this one yet.

Hasn't been sailed since BP finished with her and 198 is on the market in a "new configuration". Might be that the boards are included?

Pity that they don't mention the price.

Oh if I had money to burn.

post-33166-0-99929400-1480650705_thumb.jpg

post-33166-0-75837000-1480650728_thumb.jpg

post-33166-0-92197400-1480650754_thumb.jpg

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New Mini

 

Cx9XdWdWgAIcryF.jpg

Cx8UJoeXcAAg7HO.jpg

Pleased to say that this is the beginning of an ongoing collaboration for DSS with SeaAir, and foils derived from my Q23 developments.

Hey Hugh. Do you know what happened to the DSS mini? It was fixed keel wasn't it? Do you think it would be quick when refitted with a canting keel and a longer foil since they don't have to fit into Bmax anymore?

Also just out of interest, are you proposing something for the VOR? Seems like the system would be a good way to combine the foiling hype with the monohull roots of the race?

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Around and available, would be perfect base under new rules asits the lightest mini out there, v quick if it goes light, foils will do the work and could cant as wellif you wanted todo more than the transat. Tra sat only then fixed keel and keep it light light light.

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Hi Hugh,

 

Interested in why cant for non-transat

I reckon you need the canting keel for upwind sailing as the speed is too low for the DSS to work efficiently (lots of additional drag for very little additional RM). The transat is mostly downwind, though. And then the equation becomes the lighter you are, the faster you go, the better the DSS works. And a canting keel adds lots of weight. I imagine it to be comparable to take off speed of a foiler. The lighter you are, the earlier you pass that threshold speed where the foil provides an advantage.

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Sorry that doesn't compute, canting has the effect of increasing RM for a given bulb weight, particularly when using a non hydraulic actuator, where's the extra weight over fixed? I would love a small canter for round the buoys, just let the keel down in each tack, needs less crew.

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It computes, thats why you do not see small canters for around the bouys.

Want less crew, get a smaller keelboat. Hate to loose speed and want small crew, go catamaran.

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The melges40 is the first around the cans one design canter to my knowledge. Yes someone also has to operate the canard/daggerboard, so not ideal for a small crew. Interestingly the canting keel actually provide some lift too when going fast down wind.

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jonas A, 40 is mid size, not small, at least IMHO.

 

There were a few more the last ten years, I build two prototypes, one in Spain 9 yrs ago, one in Holland 6 yrs ago.

One of a very experienced designer of fast Tp52 etc, it just did not work. So much easier to move a few crew.

So the big plans of OD fleets died with one boat build.

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