JMOD 13 Report post #1 Posted June 16, 2016 looks purpose built. Not very pretty, but pretty cool none the less. more pictures and stories here: https://www.facebook.com/notes/team-lalou-multi-lalou-roucayrol/le-mini-650-arkema-3-mise-à-leau-dun-bateau-révolutionnaire/1040310426057308 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
saxon 0 Report post #2 Posted June 16, 2016 ABILYN 11 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
oioi 4 Report post #3 Posted June 16, 2016 Interesting rig. Is that the first soft wing sail on the class? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Roleur 23 Report post #4 Posted June 16, 2016 Can't see the top of the rig, but how do you reef and keep the forestay connected? Foils and a wing sail... Is it fast? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
plenamar 4 Report post #5 Posted June 16, 2016 Looks like an Uffa Fox design Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Raz'r 440 Report post #6 Posted June 16, 2016 tyvek wing covers? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Doug Lord 1,195 Report post #7 Posted June 16, 2016 Unlike the IMOCA 60's with their Dali foils that don't foil(foil assist only), this boat has rudder T-foils, a necessary ingredient for foiling-so it might actually foil..... More power to them! Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
LeoV 103 Report post #8 Posted June 16, 2016 more here; http://www.laloumulti.fr/telechargement/DP-ARKEMA3.pdf Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
neuronz 0 Report post #9 Posted June 16, 2016 They have my respect for trying, but that wing looks pretty far from having an advantage over classic mains in terms of lift and drag. Hope they get it sorted. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
neuronz 0 Report post #10 Posted June 16, 2016 Unlike the IMOCA 60's with their Dali foils that don't foil(foil assist only), this boat has rudder T-foils, a necessary ingredient for foiling-so it might actually foil..... More power to them! Just had a closer look at the picture and the more interesting feature are actually the canting foils! Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
LeoV 103 Report post #11 Posted June 16, 2016 Canting and retractable, agree on that sail, that needs some ironing out ... Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Kevlar Edge 1 Report post #12 Posted June 16, 2016 making the panels crosscut will not work. The panels should be built to match the wing structure. being restricted to polyester makes this tough. Contender makes a poly code zero cloth thats woven poly taffeta on a poly mono film. it would make a very stable poly cloth, ( class legal) that would work well along with a better cloth pattern to smooth out the wing. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ctutmark 6 Report post #13 Posted June 16, 2016 That the forestay moves side to side along with the sprit is a little interesting too Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ColinG 16 Report post #14 Posted June 17, 2016 Once you go to foils, why persist with the scow bow? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SCARECROW 18 Report post #15 Posted June 17, 2016 Once you go to foils, why persist with the scow bow? because the way stability is limited in the class the more form stability your hull has the more added stability you can generate by canting the keel. Your ballast is limited such that in the worst load case (ie keel fully canted etc) you can only lean over 10 degrees. if you have a wide platform with a lot of form stability it will take more ballast or cant to achieve this. So its a win-win with regards to vessel power. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ColinG 16 Report post #16 Posted June 17, 2016 Yes, but once the foils are deployed, the form stability forward is irrelevant. I am not talking about skinny boats, just no need for the bulk forward Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Raz'r 440 Report post #17 Posted June 17, 2016 Yes, but once the foils are deployed, the form stability forward is irrelevant. I am not talking about skinny boats, just no need for the bulk forward there is still lighter air Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
oioi 4 Report post #18 Posted June 17, 2016 In lighter airs wouldn't you want to maximise water line length whilst reducing wetted surface area. Not sure the scow delivers this. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dogwatch 97 Report post #19 Posted June 17, 2016 Looks like an Uffa Fox design How do you work that out. This is a bit more Uffa Foxy. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Presuming Ed 108 Report post #20 Posted June 17, 2016 In lighter airs wouldn't you want to maximise water line length whilst reducing wetted surface area. Not sure the scow delivers this. Mini transat is across the Bay of Biscay in Autumn, then downwind across the Atlantic. Light winds not the main priority, I would think. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Presuming Ed 108 Report post #21 Posted June 17, 2016 Looks like an Uffa Fox design How do you work that out. This is a bit more Uffa Foxy. Well, to be fair, so is this Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mad 827 Report post #23 Posted June 17, 2016 How many scow bow minis are there now? And have any of them gone head to head yet? Are there any more details about rig around? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Presuming Ed 108 Report post #24 Posted June 17, 2016 Also made with recyclable resin as well. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
LeoV 103 Report post #25 Posted June 17, 2016 How many scow bow minis are there now? And have any of them gone head to head yet? Are there any more details about rig around? Two original scow designed by Raison who get the credits for this evolution or creationism. http://www.histoiredeshalfs.com/Histoire%20des%20Minis/747.htm http://www.histoiredeshalfs.com/Histoire%20des%20Minis/865.htm Then Froggy from sailor Koster, forgot who designed it. Had kind of foily daggerboards. http://www.histoiredeshalfs.com/Histoire%20des%20Minis/888.htm And this is nr 4. The 865 and 888 raced each other a few times, the Raison is fast. For instance the Mini Mai just sailed: http://yb.tl/mem2016?ignoreUA=true Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
moody frog 8 Report post #26 Posted June 18, 2016 Also made with recyclable resin as well. Which is the key behind the budget: part of the launching campaign for recyclable resins by Arkema. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Boink 9 Report post #27 Posted June 18, 2016 This is a very cool project. Majorly innovative design and construction. Looks high budget. Great rig. Well thought out foils. Movable forestay. Is the skipper a well regarded talent? Another Gabart in the making? My heart wants this to go incredibly well - concerned that there are almost too many new things that need some proper field testing to realise their potential. The foils need lots of usable power and soft wingsails have that potential - but some recuts are the order of the day. The lack of shrouds allow proper overlapping headsails once again - maybe even narrow sheeting on of Code Zeros. This new resin Elium seems to be a major advance in terms of recyclability and might actually address the elephant in the room that nobody has ever dealt with - what do you do with Old High Tech Raceboats? Think about how this could be used in lots of fleets (AC, VOR, IMOCA, or Olympic) to be able to say that they are cutting edge technology, performance AND recyclable - cant use the R word much at the moment.... Good stuff by Arkema Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
tomasis 0 Report post #28 Posted June 18, 2016 Impressive stuffs, Arkema. One thing I miss is hemp fiber. Itd make things more recyclable. I hope to see more scow boats which are clearly faster. That's the future! Foils make conventional hull shape irrelevant (without losing ability to track through course). Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Presuming Ed 108 Report post #29 Posted June 18, 2016 This new resin Elium seems to be a major advance in terms of recyclability and might actually address the elephant in the room that nobody has ever dealt with - what do you do with Old High Tech Raceboats? Think about how this could be used in lots of fleets (AC, VOR, IMOCA, or Olympic) to be able to say that they are cutting edge technology, performance AND recyclable - cant use the R word much at the moment.... Good stuff by Arkema Not just high tech. Monolithic glass and polyester boats are hardly paragons of greenery. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JL92S 4 Report post #30 Posted June 19, 2016 This picture shows canting foils as well Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Varan 349 Report post #31 Posted June 19, 2016 Damn, it is still fugly as all hell. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
James Chilman 0 Report post #32 Posted June 19, 2016 Do you think we will start seeing narrower mini's taking advantage of the foils like Hugo Boss? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
LeoV 103 Report post #33 Posted June 19, 2016 yep foils canting and retractable, though I do not think you play much with the canting. You will find the sweet cant spot and stick to it. Reminds me of the longitudinal movable keel, was mostly at one position. But what is that little protrusion under the canting system... And why that black spot behind the 9 number. Does not seems to be a feature of the layout. Construction, to be able to melt parts together is interesting. And proof of recycling; after the finish it should be recycled, how would that process work ? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
StumbleNola 8 Report post #34 Posted June 19, 2016 Do you think we will start seeing narrower mini's taking advantage of the foils like Hugo Boss? Not without a rule change. The rules demand as much static stability as possible because it's the limiting factor in how much canting RM you can have. The more form stability the more canting RM. So every bit of form stability counts. The foils only generate RM while moving so any stability they provide simply isn't counted under the rule. The canting RM also helps in light air, when you can can't to leeward to help heel the boat over and get the hull out of the water. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Presuming Ed 108 Report post #35 Posted June 19, 2016 But what is that little protrusion under the canting system... And why that black spot behind the 9 number. Does not seems to be a feature of the layout. Look like graphics to me. The black spot is an eye - and the grey dot a contrast to the red dots further forward. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
LeoV 103 Report post #36 Posted June 19, 2016 Thanks Ed, now I see it. Graphic department must got worried by the nickname of Kosters boat, Froggy is to sweet, shark is better LOL Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jonas a 26 Report post #37 Posted June 19, 2016 Do you think we will start seeing narrower mini's taking advantage of the foils like Hugo Boss? The high buoyancy bows on some of the Imocas is mainly to prevent the boat from diving, whilst on the minis it also adds RM. At least with the current rules/technology, the boats will mostly be in full or semi deplacement mode Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Bruno 2 Report post #38 Posted June 19, 2016 neat ideas, the dual headstay is unusual. Guessing the jib is masthead for main reefing? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Boink 9 Report post #39 Posted June 20, 2016 No, Headstay is to a fractional take off - see the pics at the top of the thread. Good eyes LeoV - but is that "bump" under the dagger case articulation real, or just another bit of Graphics that looks 3D? Without the time to look elsewhere it looks suspiciously like a sibling of the smallest red sphere just above the case fairing at the front...... possibly ? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
LeoV 103 Report post #40 Posted June 20, 2016 And how will the windinstruments work on a mast setup like this, and running lights ? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Presuming Ed 108 Report post #41 Posted June 20, 2016 Don't multis use a rudder rotation sensor on the mast to add/subtract mast rotation to wind measurement? Probably the easiest way with the lights would be to have red over green (360°) at the masthead and sidelights - IRPCS 25c. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
LeoV 103 Report post #42 Posted June 20, 2016 Correct Ed about the multi, imocas and minis with rotating spar using a sensor, easy to do. but that foil is hinged rotating. Maybe a bit more tricky to get a sensor to work. The red over green lights is a good one. Overall a minor problem I reckon Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jonas a 26 Report post #43 Posted June 20, 2016 Btw the mini Fastnet is on. Check the YB app Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Presuming Ed 108 Report post #44 Posted June 20, 2016 Correct Ed about the multi, imocas and minis with rotating spar using a sensor, easy to do. but that foil is hinged rotating. Maybe a bit more tricky to get a sensor to work. The red over green lights is a good one. Overall a minor problem I reckon Actually, it looks like there's a black mast up the middle of the forward foil. Which doesn't, AFAICS, need to turn. So simplifies instruments and lights, Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
M26 7 Report post #45 Posted June 21, 2016 http://www.compotech.com/content/images/Marine/wing.jpg looks like Arkema is inventing hot water. Hope they can make it faster than a regular sail. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
LeoV 103 Report post #46 Posted June 21, 2016 Ed, i think the mast part rotoates, but I can be wrong. NOt experienced with this kind of setups Ps lover your classic. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
huey 2 15 Report post #47 Posted June 22, 2016 out of an ofcet series into Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Bruno 2 Report post #48 Posted June 22, 2016 No, Headstay is to a fractional take off - see the pics at the top of the thread. Good eyes LeoV - but is that "bump" under the dagger case articulation real, or just another bit of Graphics that looks 3D? Without the time to look elsewhere it looks suspiciously like a sibling of the smallest red sphere just above the case fairing at the front...... possibly ? Site shows masthead, which it has to be for reefing. Wish I'd known about the red over green a year ago. Amazing the way they plane. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
huey 2 15 Report post #50 Posted June 24, 2016 Ian Lipinski on the Scow Proto has won the Mini Fastnet Line but the overall winners must be the Horde of Pogo 3 series boats in a Pursuit Pack Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jonas a 26 Report post #51 Posted June 24, 2016 Interestingly Beaudart who won the proto last year, was first in series class this year. Wonder if he lacked funding to continue sailing proto Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
tomasis 0 Report post #52 Posted June 24, 2016 Or to prove he is best whether class. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
huey 2 15 Report post #53 Posted June 25, 2016 Ian was in series for wins and now in Proto win Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
James Chilman 0 Report post #54 Posted July 14, 2016 A few scow questions for people. Do you think a fixed keel version of maximum would work? Would still have water ballast but for offshore only I know you can't cant the keel to leeward in the light to reduce wetted area by heeling the boat. I know that Remi Fermin (741) went very well with his fixed keel glass boat. What I'm getting at is if you are going to do most of your racing around the bay (legs usually between 1-4NM) would you loose to much by having a fixed keel. Also not racing class. The next option would be to have a single dagger-board on the center line with a canting keel rather than twin boards. Looking at 741 it looks like a good light simple boat. This seems to perform better than a complex boat. It's always hard just looking at results with the skipper being such a big part of a boat performance. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Puntone 14 Report post #55 Posted July 14, 2016 And how will the windinstruments work on a mast setup like this, and running lights ? Certainly ,Same system than on the multihull with rotating mast since a long time Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Puntone 14 Report post #56 Posted July 14, 2016 Interesting rig. Is that the first soft wing sail on the class? On the class , yes . A lot of years ago , a friend of mine in Antibes ( France ) has designed , builtand rigged himself a spectacular small trimaran with a soft wing Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Haligonian Winterr 0 Report post #57 Posted July 18, 2016 It would, but you would wind up with a heavier bulb to achieve the same righting moment, whereas if you're doing buoy racing it is simple enough to pin the keel centerline and keep the boards up. Single dagger board has been proposed as a fast solution, but it isn't as efficient as having asym boards, and not much heavier. The weight and complexity of a classic canter seems to be worth it, although the ultra-complex "3D" keels have fallen out of use, and time will tell if canting foils/soft wings will stay in the class. HW A few scow questions for people. Do you think a fixed keel version of maximum would work? Would still have water ballast but for offshore only I know you can't cant the keel to leeward in the light to reduce wetted area by heeling the boat. I know that Remi Fermin (741) went very well with his fixed keel glass boat. What I'm getting at is if you are going to do most of your racing around the bay (legs usually between 1-4NM) would you loose to much by having a fixed keel. Also not racing class. The next option would be to have a single dagger-board on the center line with a canting keel rather than twin boards. Looking at 741 it looks like a good light simple boat. This seems to perform better than a complex boat. It's always hard just looking at results with the skipper being such a big part of a boat performance. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
huey 2 15 Report post #59 Posted July 28, 2016 SAS 2016 start video but they are now out in the Nth Atlantic after sneaking around shipping lane Lipinski doing 14knts the rest doing 8-11 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
LB 15 1,298 Report post #60 Posted July 28, 2016 Damn, it is still fugly as all hell. It sure is. You are never gunna pull a girl owning that no matter how thick your French accent is. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
r.finn 28 Report post #61 Posted July 28, 2016 It's notable that there are only two boats in the proto class compared to the series class which had 20 starters. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
LeoV 103 Report post #62 Posted July 28, 2016 http://lessables-lesacores650.com/ damn only 2 protos, thats fucked up for innovation that comes from an open class. Last time in 2014 11 protos. Seems the serie evolved to a boat that to many people like ... so the success for one group is the nail in the coffin for the other. And its one of the best races, long distance, nice islands, a sail back. No return transport costs. Takes a month or so in time. Starts in right period too Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
tomasis 0 Report post #63 Posted July 29, 2016 I should try that too. Ian Lippinski did almpst 300nm in 24 hours. Well done, Ian! Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Kenny Dumas 188 Report post #64 Posted July 29, 2016 I wonder if an off-center tack for the jib would be fast on a scow bow. Tack to leeward bow to open the slot when sailing upwind? I know many rules require headsails to be tacked on center line but who cares about rules anyway? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
r.finn 28 Report post #65 Posted July 29, 2016 I wonder if an off-center tack for the jib would be fast on a scow bow. Tack to leeward bow to open the slot when sailing upwind? I know many rules require headsails to be tacked on center line but who cares about rules anyway? I've thought about that too. Having spent a lot of time upwind in a proa with headsails to leeward I think it's worth investigating for sure. Scow would be the platform for it. However the Arkema boat looks like it has a lot on already in experimentation land. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
huey 2 15 Report post #66 Posted July 30, 2016 Ian is across the line... Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Kenny Dumas 188 Report post #67 Posted August 1, 2016 Hey Ryan, I'd heard that Jzerro maybe benefits from the main being above centerline of the leeward hull. Can you tell us any more about your experience / sheeting angle etc.? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
r.finn 28 Report post #68 Posted August 2, 2016 In Jzerro's case it's kind of a happy accident, as the shrouds are to leeward to act as shrouds. It also allows tighter jib sheeting angles without closing the slot as much. For the scow, I'd be inclined to set it up for central forestay while doing the shorter races, and all mini races start with a windward mark rounding, but it would be neat to see a leeward forestay for long beats across Biscay. Again, Arkema has bitten off a lot of variables to figure out. IMO it will take years for that boat to get up to 100% speed as it's set up already. I'm glad to see them taking it on though. Beaucoup balls. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Kenny Dumas 188 Report post #69 Posted August 2, 2016 Thanks Ryan, I think you meant "the stays are to leeward to act as shrouds" as can be seen in your avatar with the mast set to the left of the main hull, but it's interesting to hear you confirm the effect. It seems like a pretty low cost / simple way to improve performance to weather in many cases, such as: -scow mini on long ocean beats -any multihull on a long beat (tack to the leeward bow?) -maybe storm jibs taken to the leeward rail instead of a padeye on the foredeck centerline to fight your way off a lee shore or to the favored quadrant of a storm Old school wire stays would obviously be too complicated to move but a synthetic bolt rope with a well designed jib and maybe a halyard lock and/or mulitpart Cunningham could be pretty practical Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Jethrow 27 Report post #70 Posted August 3, 2016 You've kind of lost me with the "forestay to leeward improving windward performance" bit. If you already have a jib with a good sheeting angle I can't see what benefit dropping the forstay would have. You just rotate the lift vector more sideways or if you drop the sheeting point the same amount you just open up the slot down low. It seems to me that rather than dropping the forestay you'd be better sheeting at tighter angles. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Puntone 14 Report post #71 Posted August 3, 2016 More about Arkema Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
r.finn 28 Report post #72 Posted August 3, 2016 Thanks Ryan, I think you meant "the stays are to leeward to act as shrouds" . I did. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
huey 2 15 Report post #73 Posted October 11, 2016 unfortunate , to not have some breezy photos http://minbaad.dk/nyhed/archive/2016/08/october/article/mini-650er-med-vingemast-og-foils/ Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ColinG 16 Report post #74 Posted October 11, 2016 a floating lozenge? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
r.finn 28 Report post #75 Posted October 11, 2016 I think it looks great. I'd love to know how much the rig, boom and sail weigh, compared to a classic rig. I cannot imagine it's anywhere near as light as some of the rigs I've seen (some of which were a little scary). Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Kenny Dumas 188 Report post #76 Posted October 17, 2016 Looks like a traveler on the bow with no other visible forestay attach point, so they can drop the forestay to leeward? Why does this help? Its like canting the rig to weather sortof, with respect to the headsail anyway. And we know weather heel/cant to weather is fast in many cases: Moths, multihull, windsurfer, UFO, etc. Presumably due to the lift vector and reduced upwash? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
WetSnail 3 Report post #77 Posted October 18, 2016 Looks like a traveler on the bow with no other visible forestay attach point, so they can drop the forestay to leeward? Why does this help? Its like canting the rig to weather sortof, with respect to the headsail anyway. And we know weather heel/cant to weather is fast in many cases: Moths, multihull, windsurfer, UFO, etc. Presumably due to the lift vector and reduced upwash? Don't know, but you may find some relevant information in these two papers on "Gap and stagger effects on biplanes with end plates": http://www.enu.kz/repository/2009/AIAA-2009-1085.pdf and http://enu.kz/repository/2009/AIAA-2009-1086.pdf. You can think of a sloop rig as a biplane with large stagger but, hard on the wind, a small gap. Kang et al report that both positive stagger (leeward foil ahead of windward foil) and larger gap improve performance. The traveler can increase the gap when close to the wind. Because of the "with end plates" part of the research, I don't know how well the results generalise to sailing boats. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
huey 2 15 Report post #78 Posted November 24, 2016 New Mini Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Merde2 1 Report post #79 Posted November 24, 2016 There's some more information here: http://www.seair.fr/ Not surprised that David Raison is involved with them. They've got a different foil configuration on their website, but I think it might be an early rendering. Missing the T-foil rudders from above. Seems like they have some experience building moth foils and booms. Interesting project. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
LeoV 103 Report post #80 Posted November 24, 2016 And it looks like David Raison, the guy who enhanced the chine and scowbow, will be the skipper too. Hand him the trophy right now, rest will fight for second Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
hughw 6 Report post #81 Posted November 24, 2016 New Mini Pleased to say that this is the beginning of an ongoing collaboration for DSS with SeaAir, and foils derived from my Q23 developments. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jonas a 26 Report post #82 Posted November 24, 2016 interestingly it still has the scow bow, so it doesn't completely rely on its foils Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Bruno 2 Report post #83 Posted November 24, 2016 Looks neat Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ctutmark 6 Report post #84 Posted November 24, 2016 interestingly it still has the scow bow, so it doesn't completely rely on its foils Isn't this a re-foil of 747, the scow D. Raison won with in 2011? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
french do it better 1 Report post #85 Posted November 24, 2016 yes it is and it won't fit in the mini rule for the moment Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jonas a 26 Report post #86 Posted November 24, 2016 yes it is and it won't fit in the mini rule for the moment In the current rule the foils cant extend outside of the hull, but wasn't that about to change prior to the next mini transat? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jack_sparrow 2,750 Report post #87 Posted November 24, 2016 Yes foils not constrained by box rule for next Transat
