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      Abbreviated rules   07/28/2017

      Underdawg did an excellent job of explaining the rules.  Here's the simplified version: Don't insinuate Pedo.  Warning and or timeout for a first offense.  PermaFlick for any subsequent offenses Don't out members.  See above for penalties.  Caveat:  if you have ever used your own real name or personal information here on the forums since, like, ever - it doesn't count and you are fair game. If you see spam posts, report it to the mods.  We do not hang out in every thread 24/7 If you see any of the above, report it to the mods by hitting the Report button in the offending post.   We do not take action for foul language, off-subject content, or abusive behavior unless it escalates to persistent stalking.  There may be times that we might warn someone or flick someone for something particularly egregious.  There is no standard, we will know it when we see it.  If you continually report things that do not fall into rules #1 or 2 above, you may very well get a timeout yourself for annoying the Mods with repeated whining.  Use your best judgement. Warnings, timeouts, suspensions and flicks are arbitrary and capricious.  Deal with it.  Welcome to anarchy.   If you are a newbie, there are unwritten rules to adhere to.  They will be explained to you soon enough.  
JMOD

new mini, who says it needs to be beautifull

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Sorry that doesn't compute, canting has the effect of increasing RM for a given bulb weight, particularly when using a non hydraulic actuator, where's the extra weight over fixed? I would love a small canter for round the buoys, just let the keel down in each tack, needs less crew.

For the same bulb weight a canting keel has more RM, but also higher boat weight. You need at least one additional appendage plus structure. And then every other structural item on the boat has to be stronger and therefore heavier as well.

If you compare equal RM the bulb of the canter is lighter. But you still have the additional appendage and more complicated internal structure and actuation system. That eats up part of the weight advantage.

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jonas A, 40 is mid size, not small, at least IMHO.

 

There were a few more the last ten years, I build two prototypes, one in Spain 9 yrs ago, one in Holland 6 yrs ago.

One of a very experienced designer of fast Tp52 etc, it just did not work. So much easier to move a few crew.

So the big plans of OD fleets died with one boat build.

Yes agree, 40 is more like mid size. Wasn't just aware of any canting one designers out there regardless of size.

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how about this ?

 

Great illustration of how little the Vendee(IMOCA) rules would have to change to allow real foiling instead of foil assist(drag your ass).

 

24wddgg.jpg

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lead keels monohulls plain foiling is ridiculous DL, you can cut it now, it's over, justuse that lead weight for some carbon width then.

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If you think about it from the point of view of designing something to an existing rule I think that is a pretty awesome soloution, even though a simple 21 foot trimaran would probably be faster.

 

There's no point arguing against foiling monohulls, due to space constraints in most marinas there will continue to be more and more of them, provided the foils can be retracted most of the way in.

 

I wonder what contribution the wing rig has? Does anyone know more about it?

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lead keels monohulls plain foiling is ridiculous DL, you can cut it now, it's over, justuse that lead weight for some carbon width then.

 

You're just plain wrong! This sportboat is the worlds first foiling keelboat and as you saw earlier there will be many more.

 

 

30b3br4.jpg

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a bit more info

The Classe Mini is still one of the most innovative Monohullklassen and gives designers the freedom to test new ideas and concepts in tough regatta work on their fitness. With theARKEMA 3 a Protoype with Scowbug extendable Gennakerbau, Flügelrigg and Foils is getest since mid-year.

Since June, Skipper Quentin Vlamynck has sailed the boat over 2,000 nm to get acquainted with the yacht and to test its potential. Meanwhile, bring the crate regularly to fly and manage to keep the speed at over 20 kns. The topspeed of 23 kns was reached under big in Reff and code 5.

ArkemaMini6.50Vol2_Flou-light-640x427.jp

Classe Mini Prototype Arkema 3 - Photo Copyright: Maxence Peyras / Team Arkema Lalou Multi

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a bit more info

The Classe Mini is still one of the most innovative Monohullklassen and gives designers the freedom to test new ideas and concepts in tough regatta work on their fitness. With theARKEMA 3 a Protoype with Scowbug extendable Gennakerbau, Flügelrigg and Foils is getest since mid-year.

Since June, Skipper Quentin Vlamynck has sailed the boat over 2,000 nm to get acquainted with the yacht and to test its potential. Meanwhile, bring the crate regularly to fly and manage to keep the speed at over 20 kns. The topspeed of 23 kns was reached under big in Reff and code 5.

 

ArkemaMini6.50Vol2_Flou-light-640x427.jp

Classe Mini Prototype Arkema 3 - Photo Copyright: Maxence Peyras / Team Arkema Lalou Multi

Look closely..that's a reefable wing...IMOCA here we come.

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Is there anymore information about the wing sail they are using? Is it their own design ? The theory of these being better still doesn't seem to have been proven on real sailing yachts and maybe all the other tech like foils could be making the difference (if they prove to be fast)

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Is there anymore information about the wing sail they are using? Is it their own design ? The theory of these being better still doesn't seem to have been proven on real sailing yachts and maybe all the other tech like foils could be making the difference (if they prove to be fast)

 

If they weren't clearly better, sail area limited rules wouldn't have been using them for the last 40 years starting with the Little Cup boats.

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Is there anymore information about the wing sail they are using? Is it their own design ? The theory of these being better still doesn't seem to have been proven on real sailing yachts and maybe all the other tech like foils could be making the difference (if they prove to be fast)

If they weren't clearly better, sail area limited rules wouldn't have been using them for the last 40 years starting with the Little Cup boats.

That's hard wings right? Just wondering if the complexity of trying to do it as a softwing so it is reefable works out better.

 

None of the big french multi's have done it yet....

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Is the wing allowed under mini rules?

 

The only guidelines I've found was concerning the number of sails carried on board and the materials used in their construction.

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I think the only other rule is about air draft. Production boats might have a few more limits but I think the Mini box is pretty open.

 

Most (all?) current wings are basically soft wings in that they are material stretched / heat shrunk over a frame. Not knowing the structure of their wing or how it's reefed, I really can't say RC.

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Is there anymore information about the wing sail they are using? Is it their own design ? The theory of these being better still doesn't seem to have been proven on real sailing yachts and maybe all the other tech like foils could be making the difference (if they prove to be fast)

 

 

The wing is from Romaric Neyhousser ( team Roucayrol designer ) and after covered by Incidences Voiles

 

May be somebody can translate this

 

 

Une aile souple comme gréement

Le Mini 6.50 Arkema 3 est équipé d’une voile en tissu épais à deux éléments, à l'image des ailes des Class C ou des voiliers de la Coupe America, mais non rigide. Contrairement aux voiliers qui naviguent en baie, il fallait pouvoir réduire la toile sur le Mini 6.50 (prendre des ris et affaler complètement la voile). Le système devant être fiable et gérable par un skipper en solitaire dans les conditions océaniques.

 

Romaric Neyhousser : "Nous avons conçu une aile à deux éléments : un élément avant, autour du mât, et un élément arrière. Le deuxième est articulé sur le premier avec un axe de rotation déporté en avant de la chute pour créer un gap, une fente, entre les deux éléments. Toute la difficulté a résidé dans le fait de pouvoir tendre le tissu. Nous avons mis en place un système avec des profils qui permettent d’obtenir cette "allure" d’aile épaisse. Des formes en carbone, qui coulissent le long du mât, donnent un intrados et un extrados à l’aile."

César Dohy, maître voilier chez Incidence Sails, explique : "L’entoilage de l’aile s’est fait à partir de matériaux souples pour que le marin puisse faire varier la hauteur de la voile. Nous avons utilisé un tissu conventionnel, car nous étions bloqués par la jauge qui n’autorise que le polyester".

L’ensemble est donc articulé autour du mât, qui n’est pas apparent une fois la voile hissée. Encastré entre le fond de coque et le pont du bateau, le mât est partiellement autoporté sans haubans pour le maintenir. Seuls un étai pour porter la voile d’avant et des bastaques servent à le stabiliser.

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Is the wing allowed under mini rules?

 

The only guidelines I've found was concerning the number of sails carried on board and the materials used in their construction.

If memory serves, sails with two layers and space between counts as two sails in the inventory. There also is/was a rule about the size of a wing mast and if it was beyond that size it also counted as a sail. Haven't seen the 2017 CM rules so this could all be different like the matter of the foil rules

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Haven't seen the 2017 release, but J-29-B says any multi-part sails with be counted as the maximum combination, which for this soft wing would likely be still 1. http://www.classemini.com/modules/kameleon/upload/2016_-_OFFICIAL_TEXTS.pdf

 

Although I believe that's for Series, I can't find anything specifically for Protos. So far as I know, they don't have a "everything is banned except for what we say is okay" bit in their rules.

 

HW

 

 

Is the wing allowed under mini rules?

 

The only guidelines I've found was concerning the number of sails carried on board and the materials used in their construction.

If memory serves, sails with two layers and space between counts as two sails in the inventory. There also is/was a rule about the size of a wing mast and if it was beyond that size it also counted as a sail. Haven't seen the 2017 CM rules so this could all be different like the matter of the foil rules

 

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Is there anymore information about the wing sail they are using? Is it their own design ? The theory of these being better still doesn't seem to have been proven on real sailing yachts and maybe all the other tech like foils could be making the difference (if they prove to be fast)

If they weren't clearly better, sail area limited rules wouldn't have been using them for the last 40 years starting with the Little Cup boats.

This wing is nowhere close to the efficiency of a c-class or AC wing. It is 'only' a variable camber 1 element wing. It lacks the slot for the boundary layer control which enables hi high angles of attack without stalling. This is more like a flap setup.

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When did I ever claim it was as efficient, the question was asking whether wings have proven themselves versus soft sails. Let's be real Neuronz, your same complaint could be made against the wing from AC33.

 

But you know, it's good you made the point.

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Is there anymore information about the wing sail they are using? Is it their own design ? The theory of these being better still doesn't seem to have been proven on real sailing yachts and maybe all the other tech like foils could be making the difference (if they prove to be fast)

If they weren't clearly better, sail area limited rules wouldn't have been using them for the last 40 years starting with the Little Cup boats.

This wing is nowhere close to the efficiency of a c-class or AC wing. It is 'only' a variable camber 1 element wing. It lacks the slot for the boundary layer control which enables hi high angles of attack without stalling. This is more like a flap setup.
I think we can agree on that, but will this softwing be more efficient than a standard mini sail plan.....

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Is there anymore information about the wing sail they are using? Is it their own design ? The theory of these being better still doesn't seem to have been proven on real sailing yachts and maybe all the other tech like foils could be making the difference (if they prove to be fast)

If they weren't clearly better, sail area limited rules wouldn't have been using them for the last 40 years starting with the Little Cup boats.

This wing is nowhere close to the efficiency of a c-class or AC wing. It is 'only' a variable camber 1 element wing. It lacks the slot for the boundary layer control which enables hi high angles of attack without stalling. This is more like a flap setup.

In the French text above, they do confirm that it is a 2 element wing with a slot between them I know that it's not super obvious on the pictures.

 

They say that the difficulty is in forming/stretching the polyester sailcloth (only option class rules allow for mainsail) to the carbon rib structure.

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Once more the whole proto fleet becomes obsolete! I wish they were splitting the proto fleet between old (pre scow) and new to give an opportunity to some amateurs to have their race on older boats.

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Once more the whole proto fleet becomes obsolete! I wish they were splitting the proto fleet between old (pre scow) and new to give an opportunity to some amateurs to have their race on older boats.

 

Does the scow bow matter that much anymore with the role that foils are taking?

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Once more the whole proto fleet becomes obsolete! I wish they were splitting the proto fleet between old (pre scow) and new to give an opportunity to some amateurs to have their race on older boats.

 

Does the scow bow matter that much anymore with the role that foils are taking?

yes, more volume, less apt to stuff it and quicker to get back up the foils.

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can't you just chop off and replace the bow. Isn't the idea with a proto class that it should be open to new ideas.

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can't you just chop off and replace the bow. Isn't the idea with a proto class that it should be open to new ideas.

 

May be but that would be a major surgery. You would have to chop the first third off to stand a chance of fairing the lines. Quite a big job with a higher risk of the boat being a dog. I suspect that you would be better off rebuilding a new hull and transferring all the rest from a "donor" boat.

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can't you just chop off and replace the bow. Isn't the idea with a proto class that it should be open to new ideas.

 

+1

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Well shit.

Flying Minis.

attachicon.gif16143327_1218625628255631_4156095672765052608_n.png

taken from SeAir's facebook page: https://www.facebook.com/SEAir.gravity/

 

For it's first flight, 8kts of wind, 15 kts boatspeed

 

 

Based on the same foil tech as used on the Quant 23 by designer Hugh Welbourn.

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Well shit.

Flying Minis.

attachicon.gif16143327_1218625628255631_4156095672765052608_n.png

taken from SeAir's facebook page: https://www.facebook.com/SEAir.gravity/

 

For it's first flight, 8kts of wind, 15 kts boatspeed

 

 

Might be in the shit if the rudders kick up after hitting an UFO. Still, that never happens at sea does it? :D

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Well shit.

Flying Minis.

attachicon.gif16143327_1218625628255631_4156095672765052608_n.png

taken from SeAir's facebook page: https://www.facebook.com/SEAir.gravity/

 

For it's first flight, 8kts of wind, 15 kts boatspeed

 

Might be in the shit if the rudders kick up after hitting an UFO. Still, that never happens at sea does it? :D

nah, the foils just need adjustable flaps to provide the lift they need to become truly airborne so they can just fly over all the shit floating in the ocean :)

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If you hit a UFO in a mini you've probably got worse things to worry about.

Flat water is all good but I wonder how it behaves is rougher conditions.

 

I'd suspect that IMOCA would go with maybe some tweaks but nothing as dramatic as the last update. Like Alex Thomson mentioned, it's all about compromises and not going to extremes. They've got an entire globe to go around, and not 2 weeks worth of trade winds.


 

 

Well shit.
Flying Minis.
attachicon.gif16143327_1218625628255631_4156095672765052608_n.png
taken from SeAir's facebook page: https://www.facebook.com/SEAir.gravity/

For it's first flight, 8kts of wind, 15 kts boatspeed


Might be in the shit if the rudders kick up after hitting an UFO. Still, that never happens at sea does it? :D
nah, the foils just need adjustable flaps to provide the lift they need to become truly airborne so they can just fly over all the shit floating in the ocean :)

 

all you need is the wing from Arkema and it might just take off.

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Apparently Seair is just testing the technology and is not a Mini team with plans to sail the mini transat.

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Apparently Seair is just testing the technology and is not a Mini team with plans to sail the mini transat.

 

Where do you get that from?

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from Seair FB:

 

"Le 747 restera un démonstrateur technologique SEAir pour les mises au point de nos Foils et leurs systèmes. Notre métier consiste à faire voler les bateaux ; nous ne sommes pas un team. Nous veillons à rester compatible avec la jauge Mini pour nos clients."

 

google translate:

 

"The 747 will remain a SEAir technological demonstrator for the development of our Foils and their systems. Our job is to fly boats; We are not a team. We make sure to stay compatible with the Mini gauge for our customers."

 

Edit: funny note. the fb translation translated the word "voler" to steal....context... :)

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I see the SeaAir 747 foils exit her deck, similar to IMOCA 60 Hugo Boss.

 

A quite different approach to ARKEMA, which has the benefit of an adjustable AOA.

 

Great to see all the development continue.

Edited by Sailbydate

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May be to fit the rule.

 

I don't know the details on Arkema, but if she fits the rule, she must be narrower (by a little bit) than the Bmax, for the foils to fit in the box.

 

HW

 

I see the SeaAir 747 foils exit her deck, similar to IMOCA 60 Hugo Boss.

 

A quite different approach to ARKEMA, which has the benefit of an adjustable AOA.

 

Great to see all the development continue.

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Here's what I was able to find in the mini rules:

 

J-3 WIDTH

Without the boat healing, the beam must not exceed 3 meters.

J-4 DRAFT

The draft must not exceed 2 meters, regardless of the angle of heel between 0° and 95°.

J-20 APPENDAGES

The following are defined as appendages: rudders, daggerboards, foils, fin and any other device aspiring to create a hydrodynamic lift.

Appendages can increase the beam defined in J-3 once the start has been taken. However, the beam must not exceed 6,50 meters in the widest configuration.

Once the starting line has been crossed, appendages can increase the draft beyond the limit determined in J-4.

 

So assuming that 747 was built to 3m max width that would only leave 175cm of foil on either side as permitted by the rules.

Quite probable that it is built within the rules.

Here's their game plan (https://seair.fr/fr/demonstrateurs/)

The precursor prototype Magnum 747, designed and built by David Raison, has been transformed into a flight demonstrator. It is now equipped on the port side with a SEAir foil, equipped with eight sensors, and its foil box allows several degrees of maneuvering freedom. During the first quarter of 2017, the tests will allow to test different configurations of take-off and stabilization of flight offshore. SEAir will then evolve the systems and adjustments, in order to fly as perennially as possible. Today, creating power is no longer a problem, but exploiting it is a much more complex one. The starboard side will then be equipped with an even more advanced foil version, this time with electronic control.

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Here's what I was able to find in the mini rules:

 

J-3 WIDTH

Without the boat healing, the beam must not exceed 3 meters.

J-4 DRAFT

The draft must not exceed 2 meters, regardless of the angle of heel between 0° and 95°.

J-20 APPENDAGES

The following are defined as appendages: rudders, daggerboards, foils, fin and any other device aspiring to create a hydrodynamic lift.

Appendages can increase the beam defined in J-3 once the start has been taken. However, the beam must not exceed 6,50 meters in the widest configuration.

Once the starting line has been crossed, appendages can increase the draft beyond the limit determined in J-4.

 

So assuming that 747 was built to 3m max width that would only leave 175cm of foil on either side as permitted by the rules.

Quite probable that it is built within the rules.

Here's their game plan (https://seair.fr/fr/demonstrateurs/)

The precursor prototype Magnum 747, designed and built by David Raison, has been transformed into a flight demonstrator. It is now equipped on the port side with a SEAir foil, equipped with eight sensors, and its foil box allows several degrees of maneuvering freedom. During the first quarter of 2017, the tests will allow to test different configurations of take-off and stabilization of flight offshore. SEAir will then evolve the systems and adjustments, in order to fly as perennially as possible. Today, creating power is no longer a problem, but exploiting it is a much more complex one. The starboard side will then be equipped with an even more advanced foil version, this time with electronic control.

 

 

Thanx, Merde2.

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You've kind of lost me with the "forestay to leeward improving windward performance" bit.

 

If you already have a jib with a good sheeting angle I can't see what benefit dropping the forstay would have.

 

You just rotate the lift vector more sideways or if you drop the sheeting point the same amount you just open up the slot down low.

 

It seems to me that rather than dropping the forestay you'd be better sheeting at tighter angles.

What it means is if you already have a foresail sheeted at the optimum angle, you don't have to over sheet the mainsail as much due to the wider slot. And it is particularly useful on proas like Jzerro because the leeward backstay stops you from trimming in the mainsail really tight anyhow.....

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And on a scow, what it could mean is that if you have a transverse track for the forestay/jib tack, you can centre it for a tacking duel, let it go to leeward for optimum drive upwind on long legs or pull it to windward to minimise mainsail on foresail wind shadow downwind.

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heaps more stable than many....pull the foils in...sit the hull down and put on your pyjamas

 

in such a small time the big revolutions are amongst us dont sleep...have fun

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https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/get-your-mini-transat-foiling#/

 

Alex Vila's affordable foil kit.

 

"This foil kit is the only one designed to retrofit any Mini Transat (or other boat of a similar size and shape), transforming a displacement design into a foiling boat. These foils are in 100% accordance with the requirements of the Classe Mini box rule 2016."

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https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/get-your-mini-transat-foiling#/

 

Alex Vila's affordable foil kit.

 

"This foil kit is the only one designed to retrofit any Mini Transat (or other boat of a similar size and shape), transforming a displacement design into a foiling boat. These foils are in 100% accordance with the requirements of the Classe Mini box rule 2016."

 

oh yeah just like that? Don't forget to add a new rig and the bits that hold it up to deal with massive additional righting moments! And then the rudder will need to grunt up too for higher speeds and so on - not so easy or cheap when you get down to the nuts and bolts.

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Don't multis use a rudder rotation sensor on the mast to add/subtract mast rotation to wind measurement?

 

Probably the easiest way with the lights would be to have red over green (360°) at the masthead and sidelights - IRPCS 25c.

The solid state wind instruments can have a compass (or indeed a full IMU) built in; I just put one in a little plotter/data logger that I am building based on a Raspberry Pi. The IMU is about 25mm x 15mm x 5mm and gives 9 data elements (roll, pitch, yaw, heading, ROT, acceleration in all those directions etc..). The wind instrument can transmit wind direction referenced to mag or true north whatever the mast is doing so no need for mechanical sensors. The boats own gyro (pilot) knows which way the boat is pointed and you have speed from GPS and presumably water speed so you have enough to calculate everything.

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https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/get-your-mini-transat-foiling#/

 

Alex Vila's affordable foil kit.

 

"This foil kit is the only one designed to retrofit any Mini Transat (or other boat of a similar size and shape), transforming a displacement design into a foiling boat. These foils are in 100% accordance with the requirements of the Classe Mini box rule 2016."

 

oh yeah just like that? Don't forget to add a new rig and the bits that hold it up to deal with massive additional righting moments! And then the rudder will need to grunt up too for higher speeds and so on - not so easy or cheap when you get down to the nuts and bolts.

 

I guess it's a start. Good initiative nevertheless

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I hope the kit works out well but I don't get the idea of retracting a rudder T-foil-by pivoting the thing-doing that at speed, with that size foil, seems likely to pull the rudder off the boat?

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Whats the DLR of a mini? I imagine it is a lot higher than say a TP52 or a Volvo, so can't be long before this spreads

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Well if anyone's got the budget they can replicate the SeAir demonstrator.

It seems that whoever owns the moulds for 747 is lending them out for free.

 

"Salut,

Si tu veux te construire un vrai proto qui va vite et qui a de la gueule, je te prête (gratos!) l'outillage (moule coque mâle revêtu Teflon et Mannequin de pont en kit) du 747.
Carène toujours au top!
Prévoir en plus: forfait plans (optimisations incluses) et location des moules d'appendices (différents propriétaires), du temps, de la sueur, du carbone et de l'époxy."

 

From the Proto classifieds section of the classemini.com site.

 

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Awesome. Three enthusiastic astronauts aboard a compact little rocket ship.

post-76289-0-71479100-1487701256_thumb.jpeg

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thats the future off sailing ,Wow what a mini ,how much would that cost to build ?????

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Foils cool...but been around for a while and now Mini Regs allows them to be outside the box rule at long last...but the reefable wing is a awsome development... and a small short hander race boat game changer..No idea if it is practical to upscale that for the big boys...I suppose we watch this space.

 

If it wasn't for Minis and dollar poor enthusiastz doing stuff like this and for over 35 years now, the big dick mono sailing world would be bankrupt...and we would be all having mid oceanic race BBQ's on multis..well untill the wind got up.

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thats the future off sailing ,Wow what a mini ,how much would that cost to build ?????

 

I could see that boat costing well over $200K. That used to be a very high number in the proto class :)

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FLYING

 

 

Looks like an Uffa Fox design


How do you work that out. This is a bit more Uffa Foxy.

 

Flying-15-FF-Wood-Yacht-Restoration-7.jp

 

FLYING FIFTEEN?

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No foiling?!

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