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Gantt

2016 Olympic Games

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Sailing has often been at a venue far far away. Everyone hated it and the focus of the Ioc has been on centralising the games into a single location.

 

I used to love the way the winter and summer game where in the same year and I think that's the way forward for 3 reasons.

 

1/ it would remove the restriction in terms of the number if sports that can be involved

2/ it would potentially remove the need to restrict the number of athletes in individual sports, and could even see us back to having multiple teams from one country

3/ it would mean that sports where free to hold events at preexisting venues and venues that suit them

 

Turn the Olympics into a year long festival of sport held at venues all over the world. Start the year with an opening ceremony on Mount Olympus. Make a scene of taking the torch from.one place to another. Hold a closing ceremony some time in the run up to Xmas in Monaco / some middle eastern flesh pot.

 

You obviously know nothing about Tele Revenue.

 

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.......drop sailing from the lympix altogether

Why? Sailing in the olympics does no harm at all to the sport and could very well have a benefit.

 

Overall, sailing will be worse off without the olympics than with them. To start with, the games provides ISAF with a significant part of its income, far more than it spends on olympic related matters. Without that money, ISAF would have to scale back its support for international classes and, maybe more importantly, for youth sailing around the world. ISAF screws up a lot of things and needs sorting (I would lead the revolution!), but it also provides a lot of good stuff for our sport that it could not without olympic money.

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Sailing has often been at a venue far far away. Everyone hated it and the focus of the Ioc has been on centralising the games into a single location.

 

I used to love the way the winter and summer game where in the same year and I think that's the way forward for 3 reasons.

 

1/ it would remove the restriction in terms of the number if sports that can be involved

2/ it would potentially remove the need to restrict the number of athletes in individual sports, and could even see us back to having multiple teams from one country

3/ it would mean that sports where free to hold events at preexisting venues and venues that suit them

 

Turn the Olympics into a year long festival of sport held at venues all over the world. Start the year with an opening ceremony on Mount Olympus. Make a scene of taking the torch from.one place to another. Hold a closing ceremony some time in the run up to Xmas in Monaco / some middle eastern flesh pot.

 

You obviously know nothing about Tele Revenue.

 

 

More like I don't give a rats ass about tele revenue.

 

Given the hate towards judged sports I'm wondering what kind of skateboarding they plan to introduce. Longboard downhill presumably?

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.......drop sailing from the lympix altogether

Why? Sailing in the olympics does no harm at all to the sport and could very well have a benefit.

 

Overall, sailing will be worse off without the olympics than with them. To start with, the games provides ISAF with a significant part of its income, far more than it spends on olympic related matters. Without that money, ISAF would have to scale back its support for international classes and, maybe more importantly, for youth sailing around the world. ISAF screws up a lot of things and needs sorting (I would lead the revolution!), but it also provides a lot of good stuff for our sport that it could not without olympic money.

 

Harm: Arguably, having sailing in the Olympics creates funding and a purpose for HP youth pathways sucking large numbers of kids in, giving them an inappropriate focus for their involvement in the sport and then casting them off when they get fed up. Attention is not given and funding is not made available to capture the fall out *at all stages* for the sport as a whole. In part that's the wider sports problem I agree -- a HP program can not do its job unless it is totally focused on its goal of producing medalists -- but to reiterate, the funding is not made available to make it happen.

 

We're just not seeing a wider uplift in numbers in the sport beyond the pathway. If you add up the total number of sailors coming through the youth pathways, make generous assumptions about the number remaining in the sport and work out the number of total sailors in the sport that would result you end up with a much much smaller sport than at present.

 

These issues were the cause of the shit storm that went down in Ireland a couple of years ago, forcing the ISA to get its act together. There was a complete review of the sport and restructuring of the organisation. Hence the attempt to harness the undoubted additional national exposure the sport is getting as a result of having a medalist in our ranks.

 

The growth class here is the RS400/200. They're heading for a 60 boat nationals. In a country the size of Ireland that's not to be sneezed at. It is capturing fall out from the pathway but actually the growth is being mostly driven by people coming out of the college team racing scene.

 

ISAF/WS income and funding for the sport: At a country level the HP teams make damn sure the rest of the sport can't access *any* of it. At WS level the accounts show that the vast majority of its funding gets taken up with Olympic matters. Large parts of the sport remain entirely outside of the control of WS. They might as well have renamed it Olympic Sailing.

 

What are the bread crumbs that fall from the table? The work on RRS would happen anyway. When WS officials get involved with top level sport outside the Olympics shady things seem to happen (see the SF AC). In fact the WS set-up for officials -- pump primed by IOC funding -- could hardly be less transparent. How many International Classes just want to put "World" at the start of their championships? Until WS required them to become International Classes to do so what harm was being done?

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rgeek

 

It's hard to take you seriously when you simply make stuff up. Have you actually bothered to read the accounts of ISAF? Just to make sure I wasn't doing your "making it up", I have just downloaded them, so I can tell you that Olympic related matters, as you call it, make up 25% of the overall outgoings of ISAF. In addition, they make a profit out of the World Cup circuit which means that, combined with the money from the IOC, a giant chunk of olympic related revenues are supporting the rest of our sport. Pretty big crumbs! The rest of your comments show you don't really care to try to understand what ISAF does. You can only be critical if you base it o fact, not the fiction you seem to be writing.

 

If you believe that in your country, the olympics is harming your sport, I cannot argue against that. What i would say is that people seem to suggest that there is a link between elite pathways and the lack of growth of the sport (which i think you are suggesting). It has been shown in a number of countries that sports without these pathways and either routes to professional participation or the olympics suffer far greater than those that do have the pathways. Retention of post school age participants is a major issue in almost all competitive sports world wide, and it is worse with women than men. In short, sailing would be bucking a clearly defined trend if, in dropping the olympics, it did anything other than shrink even faster. If you want to see what happens to a sport with no pathway and no olympics, take a look at squash.

 

You also do not consider what the loss of the olympics would have on sailing in other countries. Although I cannot find the report currently, back when losing olympic sailing was first seen as a possibility, it was reported that over 20% of ISAF member nations would effectively see the sport become nonviable in their country because the government money needed to support sailing would go, as those countries only support olympic sports.

 

Luckily, we will probably not know who is right and who is wrong for many years to come, if ever, so this is purely an academic discussion. I would be delighted if yoy could get your country to drop olympic sailing and its associated pathways, so we could all see what the effect is, but again, that is not going to happen, particularly as the sport gave you one of only 2 medals this game. I guess the only chance is if Ireland gets banned for the corrupt officials which stole the thunder of the few successes.

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Womens 470

Shows how shallow the pool is if you can carry 2 DSQ's and still medal. Does that happen in a true world championship?

This shows that the Olympics is not a race of the worlds best but a race of the favored few from a few countries and many that should not be there at all.

 

But it was fun to watch.

 

.

In addition to the undeniable raw talent of the British pair, the rumors from the girls boat park are that they had a unique boat. I470s have been dominated by NZL hulls for a decade and what I heard is that the British decided that it was time for a British team to be sailing in a British hull. So Team GBR funding put together the alchemy of one of the UK's top small boat designers (UK excels in the minutiae of perfecting the shapes of small dinghies because of all their development classes like Merlin Rocket and National 12) and combined that with one of their best artisan small boat builders. They labored together in a secret shed somewhere in the Arthurian Middle Kingdom, testing various theories and dark arts. Finally, something very special emerged. The sword was removed from the stone and Hannah and Saskia grasped the hilt and could feel that it was very good.

 

Anyone from GBR confirm ?

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Womens 470

Shows how shallow the pool is if you can carry 2 DSQ's and still medal. Does that happen in a true world championship?

This shows that the Olympics is not a race of the worlds best but a race of the favored few from a few countries and many that should not be there at all.

 

But it was fun to watch.

.

In addition to the undeniable raw talent of the British pair, the rumors from the girls boat park are that they had a unique boat. I470s have been dominated by NZL hulls for a decade and what I heard is that the British decided that it was time for a British team to be sailing in a British hull. So Team GBR funding put together the alchemy of one of the UK's top small boat designers (UK excels in the minutiae of perfecting the shapes of small dinghies because of all their development classes like Merlin Rocket and National 12) and combined that with one of their best artisan small boat builders. They labored together in a secret shed somewhere in the Arthurian Middle Kingdom, testing various theories and dark arts. Finally, something very special emerged. The sword was removed from the stone and Hannah and Saskia grasped the hilt and could feel that it was very good.

 

Anyone from GBR confirm ?

 

 

http://www.rondarboats.com/news/latestnews/

470's are mentioned in passing in the interview with Paul Young. I think there is quite a lot more mystery to it that in your post though.

The Aussie hulls are pretty unique as well, although technically all boats are off the shelf, and available to all, as those are the rules. (I am aware that something cannot be "a bit" unique. It either is, or isn't.)

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"No comparison" was the only comment I could get out of a friend who once had a tricked out 470 to sail. Some interesting tales from another on the development of the GBR Star too.

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From the CEO of World Sailing:

 

 

You get out to the ocean, they’re huge seas. We’ve had racing in three-metre swells. The ocean race areas are on the other side of Sugarloaf and the other mountains. There were logistical and technical challenges to run live broadcast from those races, to have the full production crews operate in that environment, and having the relay points to transmit the footage. So it’s always been clear to everyone around the world that those race areas, where were created for good sports reasons, would never be on the live broadcast.

For live broadcast, two of the race areas inside Guanabara Bay were designated. However, the ocean racing, along with all the other race areas, would be recorded. The recorded footage goes out to the rights-holding broadcasters, but it’s up to sailing nations to put pressure on their rights-holding broadcasters to get that footage out. Everyone has it, but it’s not live.

 

 

 

How do we put pressure on NBC (who by the way provided the best Olympic coverage ever in their streaming service!) to release the footage from the Ocean courses. I would give almost anything to see that stuff.

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Good spot...and Rondar does not list the I470 on its website as a boat the public can buy....so if Rondar was the mysterious "artisan small boat builder" working in a secret shed in location X in middle England.....then who was "Alchemist" designer ?

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Cummon Paul (we know you read Sailing Anarchy)........the Games are over, they won Gold, spill the beans.......were you involved in a special project for Team GBR? :ph34r:

 

At least Alan Bond lifted the skirts. :)

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Womens 470

Shows how shallow the pool is if you can carry 2 DSQ's and still medal. Does that happen in a true world championship?

This shows that the Olympics is not a race of the worlds best but a race of the favored few from a few countries and many that should not be there at all.

 

But it was fun to watch.

.

In addition to the undeniable raw talent of the British pair,

 

 

How about going over the amount of money the Girls are Paid as a living wage and how much money is spent on their equipment and how much money is spent for their travel and regatta expenses by the stupid tax you call the Lottery. goddamn disgusting is what it is.

 

You Brits are a fucked up lot thinking the rest of the world really gives a shit about a white racist sport that is relatively boring.

Grow up and join the real world, you lost your empire and now you think the Olympics is a way to regain it? HAHAHAHAHA

 

Fracking Brits, a Stodgy Lot.

 

 

God Save the Queen, cause it won't be long.

 

 

 

 

stodg·y

ˈstäjē/Submit

adjective

1.

dull and uninspired.

 

synonyms: boring, dull, uninteresting, dreary, turgid, tedious, dry, unimaginative, uninspired, unexciting, unoriginal, monotonous, humdrum, prosaic, staid, heavy going;

 

It's funny how you have a dig at the Brits, when the overall spending by the USA on their olympic efforts is over double what the Brits spend. What is interesting is that the average spend per medal across the USA, GBR, NZ and Australia (countries I have data on) is amazingly consistent at about US$8.3-8.5 million per medal.

 

I think it is far fairer to say that the USA throws money at olympic sport in order to perpetuate their belief in their own global domination. In reality, of course it is all about national pride, but it is an internal thing because only an idiot would think that success at the olympics enhances global standing.

 

I should also highlight that the amount the UK actually spends is nothing compared with the overall population, being just over £1 per person per year and that the British public are very happy for the money to go that way. Over the last few days, there have been many comments in both the press and social media complementing the then Prime Minister for setting up proper funding of sport back in 1997 in order to compete on equal or better terms than the likes of teh USA, Russia and others.

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Womens 470

Shows how shallow the pool is if you can carry 2 DSQ's and still medal. Does that happen in a true world championship?

This shows that the Olympics is not a race of the worlds best but a race of the favored few from a few countries and many that should not be there at all.

 

But it was fun to watch.

.

In addition to the undeniable raw talent of the British pair, the rumors from the girls boat park are that they had a unique boat. I470s have been dominated by NZL hulls for a decade and what I heard is that the British decided that it was time for a British team to be sailing in a British hull. So Team GBR funding put together the alchemy of one of the UK's top small boat designers (UK excels in the minutiae of perfecting the shapes of small dinghies because of all their development classes like Merlin Rocket and National 12) and combined that with one of their best artisan small boat builders. They labored together in a secret shed somewhere in the Arthurian Middle Kingdom, testing various theories and dark arts. Finally, something very special emerged. The sword was removed from the stone and Hannah and Saskia grasped the hilt and could feel that it was very good.

 

Anyone from GBR confirm ?

 

 

http://www.rondarboats.com/news/latestnews/

470's are mentioned in passing in the interview with Paul Young. I think there is quite a lot more mystery to it that in your post though.

The Aussie hulls are pretty unique as well, although technically all boats are off the shelf, and available to all, as those are the rules. (I am aware that something cannot be "a bit" unique. It either is, or isn't.)

 

I don't know exactly what has gone on, but it wouldn't surprise me. It's the same thing as happened with Ian Percy's Star. Again, it is no different from what other countries have done in a wide variety of classes over the years. As mentioned above, the Aussies have done some unique things in the 470 which led to them dominating the class. In particular, they developed a rather special centreboard which gave a significant performance advantage. It was optimised for shape, twist and stiffness. It had a new and rather special construction technique and the builder involved had to agree not to sell the foils to anybody other than those approved of by the AUS team. I believe the sailors weren't allowed to sell them with their boats.

 

It doesn't matter what the class, optimisation of equipment is key, even in supplied equipment classes like the Laser. For non supplied equipment events, where the sailor takes his own boat, it is usual to have bought around 6 sets ofd spars and sails and these are set up and tested to find the "best". Work is also done in understanding the differences so come the olympics, it is possible to get the best out of whatever combination you get handed. Manufacturing tolerances are enough to make a difference at the highest levels of our sport. You can either choose to spend the time and money on this or ignore it and, even if it is very slightly, impact your athlete's chances.

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Team_GBR: The difference is that USA has the resources to spend much, much more than what they currently do, if they wanted. Your rainy little island does not. Maybe the GBR budget would be better spent fixing your people's teeth or coming up w/ a new recipe for that slop you call "food"?

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all that talk is great but till you learn how to sail fast you can use all that money to keep paying Brits, Aussies and NZL folk to do it for you...

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Good spot...and Rondar does not list the I470 on its website as a boat the public can buy....so if Rondar was the mysterious "artisan small boat builder" working in a secret shed in location X in middle England.....then who was "Alchemist" designer ?

I know, and I know I'm not the only person reading this who knows, but I'm not going to name names.

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Dawg Gonit

 

We now see your true colours. Your position is driven by envy and regret. You should stop for one moment and think about how negative your view is for the whole para sport movement. You are clearly envious and upset by the level of paralympic sailing support some countries provide and this is clouding your whole judgement. You don't seem to realise that it is your own country and national authority you should be upset by and that you should be applauding the efforts of some countries in this area. While I don't personally compete in this category, I have provided a lot of support and coaching, so I think I know something about this.

 

The one thing I have found that is consistent amongst all para competitors is that they want the chance to be treated equally and fairly when compared with their able bodied counterparts. Just read/listen to the reactions because of the Paralympics cut backs. As such, providing Para sailors with the same level of support as the able bodied team is a must and shows true equality. If your country doesn't do that, shame on them, but don't go about posting comments that can only be interpreted as the rise of the green eyed monster. You suggest it is all about $$$, but it is actually all about those countries providing the same opportunities to their para sailors.

 

I also find it totally hypocritical for anybody from the USA to lecture about the UK spending on their olympic effort. The US has the richest and biggest medal producing machine in the world. Forget the fact that the USA outspends everybody else by a huge margin and consider the role of the US College system in some olympic sports. 415 out of 551 US olympic athletes have benefited from the College system. Once you add that level of money into the equation, the US is spending more per team member and more per medal than anybody else. What is being seen in the UK (and some other countries) is an attempt to address that imbalance. It seems as if some on here would rather that sailing is left behind and not given the support that other sports receive. Why should sailors get less support that, say, the swimmers, cyclists and athletes?

 

This leads us full circle. Sailors are entitled to expect the same level of support for their sport as other sports get, and therefore, para sailors are entitled to that level of support as well. So stop complaining and instead, celebrate the countries that treat their paralympians as equals. i am proud at the money that the UK spends on their para team. To knock it at all is to knock the very principals that should be applauded.

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As mentioned above, the Aussies have done some unique things in the 470 which led to them dominating the class. In particular, they developed a rather special centreboard which gave a significant performance advantage. It was optimised for shape, twist and stiffness. It had a new and rather special construction technique and the builder involved had to agree not to sell the foils to anybody other than those approved of by the AUS team. I believe the sailors weren't allowed to sell them with their boats.

 

It doesn't matter what the class, optimisation of equipment is key, even in supplied equipment classes like the Laser. For non supplied equipment events, where the sailor takes his own boat, it is usual to have bought around 6 sets ofd spars and sails and these are set up and tested to find the "best". Work is also done in understanding the differences so come the olympics, it is possible to get the best out of whatever combination you get handed. Manufacturing tolerances are enough to make a difference at the highest levels of our sport. You can either choose to spend the time and money on this or ignore it and, even if it is very slightly, impact your athlete's chances.

 

Um, the Australians haven't dominated the 470 class. Yes, they have won medals - but dominated? Don't think so. Don't think that's ever been the case. Individuals have dominated for short periods - but that dominance was mostly about technique (for example NZL in the late 1970s).

 

Here's some facts about the foils that the Australians used.

http://www.mackayboats.com/index.cfm/just-fast/470-centreboard-development/

 

The first thing you may notice is that the company / builders were not Australian. Are you sure that the advantage was huge? Are you sure you have the facts right there Team_GBR?

 

If the GBR women had a faster boat - why would they use the same design for the men? Same goes for other countries. ;)

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The AUS 470 men have been world champ about 10 times in the past 16 years plus a few second and thirds, only 3 years not on the podium. Since the class virtually does not exist in Aust, that's from about 3 or 4 different skippers and crews, all olympic medalists, and Olympic squad. I'd call it domination.

 

But such domination had done nothing for the class in Aust. No one races them except once a year when the stars come home for a single regatta. But then no one can keep up anyway.

 

The 2000 centreboards may have been British but more recently they have been built by Mark Thorpe in Sydney, working closely with Victor Kavalenko. Mark was also the boat maintenace boss at the last two Olympics.

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The 2000 centreboards may have been British but more recently they have been built by Mark Thorpe in Sydney, working closely with Victor Kavalenko. Mark was also the boat maintenace boss at the last two Olympics.

 

The 2000 centerboards for were made for Tom King / Mark Turnbull and Jenny Armstrong / Belinda Stowell by MacKay Boats, based in Auckland, New Zealand. Jenny Armstrong is a New Zealander who sailed for Australia. Born in Dunedin (I knew her brother) she represented NZ in Barcelona sailing the Europe dinghy and got fourth.

 

In the eight times that the 470 has been used as a women's class, Australia has won just two medals.

 

In the eleven times that the 470 has been used as a men's class, Australia has won five medals - though four of those have been in the last five Olympics.

 

Australia has certainly had a few strong individual performers over the years - however has not dominated. It would be like saying Sime and Igor's performance make CRO a dominant 470 nation - because at the worlds they have finished in the top three in seven of the last eight contests (winning three). In the men's, CRO and AUS can't both be dominant at the same time - or can they?

 

The last time the Men's 470 world champs was dominated by a country was in 1984 when NZL got first, second and third. Since then, no one country has placed two boats in the top three.

 

The last time the Women's 470 world champs was dominated by a country was in 1994 when GER got first, second and third. Since then, only twice one country has two boats in the top three. (GER - second & third in 1996, UKR - first and third in 1997).

 

Maybe 'dominance' is a matter of perspective. ;)

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Phil S is right and you, Mr Gantt, are well out of date. After seeing the potential of the Mackay foils and finding everybody was going for them in 2004, the Aussies believed they could go a lot further and as Phil says, started working with Mark Thorpe. They improved the section and then did a load of work on understanding the effects of stiffness and how they could induce different levels of twist along the foil by varying the laminate. These boards are very different from the Mackay boards with the details of section and laminate, plus the exact construction process, a closely guarded secret and nobody outside of the Oz team gets access to the boards. The Thorpe boards won the mens gold in 2008 and 2012, and the womens gold in 2008. In addition, the boards have won 8 out of the last 10 mens worlds. I have seen the both the Mackay and Thorpe boards and there are a few things that stand out. I don't know how Thorpe achieves it, but the trailing edge is stiffer and stronger than anything i have ever seen. I suspect you could hit it with a hammer and not damage it, and it is razor sharp. It leaves everybody going "how the f#$k has he done that"!

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Team GBR,

Ned, 19 medals, ranked 11 on medal list, 8 gold.

 

cost per medal; 10.84 mil Euro, as it calculated over 4 yrs (4 yrs, 206 Million spend on top sporters).

Source, trustworthy, research asked for by the Dutch Olympic Committee, done by University of Utrecht and Mulier institute

http://fd.nl/ondernemen/1164279/kostprijs-olympische-medaille-10-84-mln

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Phil S is right and you, Mr Gantt, are well out of date. After seeing the potential of the Mackay foils and finding everybody was going for them in 2004, the Aussies believed they could go a lot further and as Phil says, started working with Mark Thorpe. They improved the section and then did a load of work on understanding the effects of stiffness and how they could induce different levels of twist along the foil by varying the laminate. These boards are very different from the Mackay boards with the details of section and laminate, plus the exact construction process, a closely guarded secret and nobody outside of the Oz team gets access to the boards. The Thorpe boards won the mens gold in 2008 and 2012, and the womens gold in 2008. In addition, the boards have won 8 out of the last 10 mens worlds. I have seen the both the Mackay and Thorpe boards and there are a few things that stand out. I don't know how Thorpe achieves it, but the trailing edge is stiffer and stronger than anything i have ever seen. I suspect you could hit it with a hammer and not damage it, and it is razor sharp. It leaves everybody going "how the f#$k has he done that"!

 

Team_GBR, did you actually read what I wrote? I raised the Mackay foils (used in 2000) in response to PhilS who said he thought they were made in the UK. Exactly what part of that was PhilS right about - and what part of that was I out of date with?

 

Methinks you are looking too closely at the foils Team_GBR - there is a bigger picture. Yes the foils are good - but that has not translated into 'Australian domination'.

 

We can rule out the idea that Australia or Australians are dominant in the women's 470s. They are not - in spite of access to the nifty foils. That access to the foils point to the foils not being a 'huge' advantage - an absolute fact with regard to women's 470s.

 

In the men's 470, the last time a COUNTRY was dominant in the world champs was in 1984. Since then, no single country has placed two boats in the top three. That includes 2016, 2015, 2014, 2103... and is hardly out of date.

 

Australians have had several outstanding crews, but only one at a time. Did any other Australian men's crews have access to the foils? (I'd be very surprised to hear they didn't). Although winning the 2015, the next placed Australian crews were 38th, then 43rd.

 

I started to check how many times Australia had two crews in the top 10. I went back as far as 2008 - they haven't. Only twice in the top 20. Australia, as a country is NOT dominant in the 470 class.

 

At the Olympics, in 2008 Wilmot / Page famously sailed an amazingly consistent regatta (very impressive), and went into the medal race leading overall without having won a race. They won the medal race and secured the gold. In 2012, Wilmot / Page dominated, no question. In 2016, Australia won silver on countback with the same points as bronze. No medal in 2004.

 

So far as the Olympics are concerned, one Australian crew dominated once in the last four Olympics. Maybe twice.

 

Yes, Australia has consistently had ONE crew do remarkably well in the last ten years, but have not dominated in the same way that Burling and Tuke have in the 49er - or Scott in the Finn. These are individual crew performances, and not a country's domination of a class.

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Gantt

2 questions for you. First, have you raced 470's? Second, have you raced on the olympic circuit. I ask because I have and your posts read like somebody who hasn't and is trying to build a story by reading reports, which, as usual, you get wrong. Just for the record, Nathan didn't even sail at the 2012 olympics. It was Mat Belcher who was pretty well as dominant as both the Finn and 49er sailors. He won 7 world championships running and in a 3 year period, won 24 out of 27 regattas. You are also wrong when you say that that Oz had one crew who dominated. If you go back to 2008, Mat was ranked No.1 in the world but Nathan and Malcolm went to the games having won the world champs in 2007.

 

I don't deny that Nathan and Mat (and, of course, the great Malcolm Page) are/were great sailors as well. As has been shown with the Oz women, having the fastest boats and the best coach (Victor "The Medal Maker" Kovalenko) sometimes isn't enough. Irrespective of how good they were, it is a fact that the Oz boats had a boatspeed advantage over everybody that was attributed by many to their foil program.the old adage "boatspeed makes you a tactical genius" certainly holds true in 470's and once they lost that edge, the results suffered.

 

Having said that, I think that Mat and Ryan's performance in Rio was rather special, despite "only" getting silver. having been a dominant force for so long, once others had caught up, they needed to effectively learn the game anew. When you have an edge, as they did for so long, you can be far more conservative in your approach. Once others have an edge, you need to sail differently to get the results and I think they handled it all very well. It would have been very easy for them to have ended this cycle with no medal at all, but they came through in the end, as great sailors do.

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Team_GBR - I apologise for my single error, I meant to write Belcher not Wilmot for the 2012 games.

 

You are also wrong when you say that that Oz had one crew who dominated.

 

Yes I would have been wrong - had I said that. But I didn't. I said one crew at one time.

 

I'm not basing this on reports (other people's opinions). I'm basing this on results and watching the racing when I can - and also by listening to those who competed.

 

 

As mentioned above, the Aussies have done some unique things in the 470 which led to them dominating the class.

 

 

I guess it's a matter of perspective of exactly what a country's domination of a class looks like.

 

1984 Open World 470 Champs:

1st: David Barnes & Hamish Willcox (NZL)
2nd: Chris Dickson & Joe Allen (NZL)
3rd: Peter Evans & Sean Reeves (NZL)
1994 Women's World 470 Champs
1st: Ines Bohn & Sabine Rohatzsch (GER)
2nd: Susanne Bauckholt & Katrin Adlkofer (GER)
3rd: Peggy Hardwiger & Christina Pinnow (GER)
Though if Australia 'dominated' by winning, then maybe we need to invent a new word to describe the open 1984 worlds and women's 1994 worlds. How about 'hyperdomination'?
No single country has placed first, second and third in the 470 world champs since 1984 for men's crews, and 1994 for women.
It's interesting (at least to me) that Hamish Wilcox is Burling & Tuke's coach in the 49er.

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You really are a bitter and twisted individual and while I am naturally sympathetic to anybody who has disabilities, your attitude really is a disgrace and risks painting others in a poor light. A lot of your claims are totally wrong, but I am sure you know that as you seem to be a pretty manipulative person who doesn't have any regard for the truth. i am not surprised to hear others in the para movement have banned you. You come out with lies, libel and deformation. You blame everybody else, attack everybody else and from your own words, you were ill informed to begin with and seem to still be. I am delighted to read you won't be responding to this thread, because hate and lies have no place in a serious debate.

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Dawg, what is an 18' doing in this thread? Is this a case of "Oh look how awesome that looks!"? 'Cause anything looks good in a breeze, and you can get equivalent photos of 49ers, 470s, etc...

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Dawg, what is an 18' doing in this thread? Is this a case of "Oh look how awesome that looks!"? 'Cause anything looks good in a breeze, and you can get equivalent photos of 49ers, 470s, etc...

 

Well, it certainly does not look breezy in that photo but the boat is jumping out.

 

49er maybe, 470, you got to be joking.

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Re the 18 footer pic, for those who get their buzz from close fleet sailing, the 18 footer looks like it would be exciting for 2 minutes, then increasingly boring.

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Dawg, what is an 18' doing in this thread? Is this a case of "Oh look how awesome that looks!"? 'Cause anything looks good in a breeze, and you can get equivalent photos of 49ers, 470s, etc...

 

Well, it certainly does not look breezy in that photo but the boat is jumping out.

 

They have the No.2 rig up, in marginal conditions, with the wind on the day being reported as 13-17 knots on an open sea course. 18's jump well before any other boat because even with the "small" rig up, they have huge sail area and travel pretty quick. With the big rig and the right conditions, you can get photos like that in pretty gentle conditions (12 knots?)

 

Re the 18 footer pic, for those who get their buzz from close fleet sailing, the 18 footer looks like it would be exciting for 2 minutes, then increasingly boring.

You really don't know what you are talking about, do you. Have you ever watched 18's racing. It is broadcast every Sunday in season and the racing in Sydney harbour is very, very close. I was fortunate enough to sail a JJ and a few races in the lead up and can say that it is some of the best skiff racing you could ever do, if you get bored doing that, you can't have a pulse.

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Re the 18 footer pic, for those who get their buzz from close fleet sailing, the 18 footer looks like it would be exciting for 2 minutes, then increasingly boring.

You really don't know what you are talking about, do you. Have you ever watched 18's racing. It is broadcast every Sunday in season and the racing in Sydney harbour is very, very close. I was fortunate enough to sail a JJ and a few races in the lead up and can say that it is some of the best skiff racing you could ever do, if you get bored doing that, you can't have a pulse.

 

This "very very close" concept is not reflected in fleet sizes or finish times. The JJ series had about 30 entries from memory - which for 18 footers is great!

 

There are very few tacking duels - simply because the boats lose too much speed from tacking. Boats are just as likely to sail lower for a bit to get clear air than two quick tacks to find clear air. Racing is more of a drag race than being tactically testing. (I've raced skiffs, boat speed and handling are more important than in other classes.) The difference between the first boat and the last boat in the JJ series always seemed to be 10 minutes or more, the difference between 5th and 20th was 5 minutes plus. Example: race 6 of the JJ series 21 Feb 2016 the difference between 5th and 20th was 5:17. It's close for 18 footers, but simply put, not as close as with many other classes. It's not exactly a procession or follow the leader, however places don't change as a result of tactics and subtle wind shifts as much to do with handling errors or outright boatspeed. I suppose that's a different kind of exciting.

 

Mostly, the racing of 18 footers is in smaller fleets.

 

I've sailed in non-skiff fleets where multiple boats have finished within one second. Where the finish times given are the same for two boats, so they are declared equal. (In some fleets in which I have competed, that happens several times a year). The Olympic single handed classes in particular had some very close racing, where it was common for the majority of the fleet to finish within a minute. Example, race 10 of the Finns at Rio the difference between 5th place and 20th place was 1:31. It's closer no matter which way you look at it - and closer is to me more exciting.

 

I based my comment on the picture of a 18 footer sailing alone. I find pictures of starting line of 40 plus boats of one design yachts exciting - because it reminds me of the times I have sailed in fleets of that size. My point is that sailing fast boats like 18 footers (or faster boats) - after the initial thrill, the adrenaline tends to decline. Once you adjust to the speed - for me - it gets to be unremarkable.

 

It would appear that you are as correct in stating that I don't have a pulse as you are in calling the 18 footer racing close. (I suppose it's all relative.) Having observed skiff racing for a few decades, my time racing skiffs was brief, only two seasons - so yeah - I possibly have a lot to learn about skiffs. As for JJ series being the best skiff racing you could ever do, I know a few Musto Skiff sailors who would be more than pleased to debate the issue with you. As for me, I will bow to your superior knowledge because on high authority (yours Team_GBR) I clearly don't know what I'm talking about.

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Re the 18 footer pic, for those who get their buzz from close fleet sailing, the 18 footer looks like it would be exciting for 2 minutes, then increasingly boring.

You really don't know what you are talking about, do you. Have you ever watched 18's racing. It is broadcast every Sunday in season and the racing in Sydney harbour is very, very close. I was fortunate enough to sail a JJ and a few races in the lead up and can say that it is some of the best skiff racing you could ever do, if you get bored doing that, you can't have a pulse.

 

This "very very close" concept is not reflected in fleet sizes or finish times. The JJ series had about 30 entries from memory - which for 18 footers is great!

 

There are very few tacking duels - simply because the boats lose too much speed from tacking. Boats are just as likely to sail lower for a bit to get clear air than two quick tacks to find clear air. Racing is more of a drag race than being tactically testing. (I've raced skiffs, boat speed and handling are more important than in other classes.) The difference between the first boat and the last boat in the JJ series always seemed to be 10 minutes or more, the difference between 5th and 20th was 5 minutes plus. Example: race 6 of the JJ series 21 Feb 2016 the difference between 5th and 20th was 5:17. It's close for 18 footers, but simply put, not as close as with many other classes. It's not exactly a procession or follow the leader, however places don't change as a result of tactics and subtle wind shifts as much to do with handling errors or outright boatspeed. I suppose that's a different kind of exciting.

 

Mostly, the racing of 18 footers is in smaller fleets.

 

I've sailed in non-skiff fleets where multiple boats have finished within one second. Where the finish times given are the same for two boats, so they are declared equal. (In some fleets in which I have competed, that happens several times a year). The Olympic single handed classes in particular had some very close racing, where it was common for the majority of the fleet to finish within a minute. Example, race 10 of the Finns at Rio the difference between 5th place and 20th place was 1:31. It's closer no matter which way you look at it - and closer is to me more exciting.

 

I based my comment on the picture of a 18 footer sailing alone. I find pictures of starting line of 40 plus boats of one design yachts exciting - because it reminds me of the times I have sailed in fleets of that size. My point is that sailing fast boats like 18 footers (or faster boats) - after the initial thrill, the adrenaline tends to decline. Once you adjust to the speed - for me - it gets to be unremarkable.

 

It would appear that you are as correct in stating that I don't have a pulse as you are in calling the 18 footer racing close. (I suppose it's all relative.) Having observed skiff racing for a few decades, my time racing skiffs was brief, only two seasons - so yeah - I possibly have a lot to learn about skiffs. As for JJ series being the best skiff racing you could ever do, I know a few Musto Skiff sailors who would be more than pleased to debate the issue with you. As for me, I will bow to your superior knowledge because on high authority (yours Team_GBR) I clearly don't know what I'm talking about.

 

 

Your line of thinking is why Sailing is on the chopping block. 2020 will be the last games for sailing.

 

Think in the past live in the past and....................well, we'll see you in the future if you ever catch up.

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Your line of thinking is why Sailing is on the chopping block. 2020 will be the last games for sailing.

 

Think in the past live in the past and....................well, we'll see you in the future if you ever catch up.

 

 

Sailing is on the chopping block (for the Olympics) because the classes selected have closer racing than the 18 footers?

 

Really? REALLY???

 

Apparently, this means I am thinking in the past - and there is a possibility that I may not catch up in the future.

 

(With respect Mr Einstein, I clearly don't know what I'm thinking so next time I think I'm going to have a thought I better consult you? Sheesh. Come on. Your deductive reasoning is underwhelming. Perhaps the reason you don't like tactics is because you don't understand it? You seem to be suggesting that sailing will be dropped from the Olympics - and that thinking like mine is the reason. You seem keen to cast stones, but offer no constructive way forward. A foiling class? Which one?)

 

In the mean-time (in the real world), Olympic Sailing has a strong following, and the oldest Olympic class, the Finn, does not appear to be close to being replaced for 2024 - I think 2016 was a success for the Finn. The other classes look OK - the weakest class so far as international depth is concerned is the 49erFX. My thoughts is that stability is good for the sport - and development needs to be concentrated on giving depth - including building national fleets, while being open to developing classes. In order to do this, they should announce the classes for 2024 and 2028 now, so we know what the future holds. Perhaps being always three Olympics in advance? Instability has knocked the RSX about - as an example of what not to do.

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Your line of thinking is why Sailing is on the chopping block. 2020 will be the last games for sailing.

 

Think in the past live in the past and....................well, we'll see you in the future if you ever catch up.

 

 

Sailing is on the chopping block (for the Olympics) because the classes selected have closer racing than the 18 footers?

 

Really? REALLY???

 

Apparently, this means I am thinking in the past - and there is a possibility that I may not catch up in the future.

 

(With respect Mr Einstein, I clearly don't know what I'm thinking so next time I think I'm going to have a thought I better consult you? Sheesh. Come on. Your deductive reasoning is underwhelming. Perhaps the reason you don't like tactics is because you don't understand it? You seem to be suggesting that sailing will be dropped from the Olympics - and that thinking like mine is the reason. You seem keen to cast stones, but offer no constructive way forward. A foiling class? Which one?)

 

In the mean-time (in the real world), Olympic Sailing has a strong following, and the oldest Olympic class, the Finn, does not appear to be close to being replaced for 2024 - I think 2016 was a success for the Finn. The other classes look OK - the weakest class so far as international depth is concerned is the 49erFX. My thoughts is that stability is good for the sport - and development needs to be concentrated on giving depth - including building national fleets, while being open to developing classes. In order to do this, they should announce the classes for 2024 and 2028 now, so we know what the future holds. Perhaps being always three Olympics in advance? Instability has knocked the RSX about - as an example of what not to do.

 

 

It has a strong following with sailors because they sail. For the rest of the world - They don't care -

 

It's boring and unexciting, even with the new classes, for the world to watch.

 

If the world does not watch, it does not exist to the world. It will only exist to those who participate.

 

chop chop chop

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As heart breaking as it was, watching the 470 women's race was some of the most fun I had watching racing.... Aside from when it all went south .

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You guys really do agree, but you are arguing from different angles.

 

Sailors enjoy thrills and good racing, mostly getting either from separate classes. Sailors choose which class they prefer and enjoy it. We have enough diversity to satisfy every one who sails.

 

But the Olympics is not really a sailing event, it's a multisport TV event for non sailing TV viewers, and non sailors do not understand tactics, wind shifts etc, but they can understand short episodes of speed and crashes. So the Olympics want more exciting boats, speed and crashes even if its not what at least half the sailors want.

 

WS will fight for the sailors but probably lose to the IOC who want a TV event. So they will adapt our sport for TV or end up out of the games.

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The changes made for TV are OK - while I liked the old Olympic course (Triangle - windward - leeward - triangle - beat to finish) it was more of a marathon - I love the shorter race formats - more races - and double points for the medal race with the best 10 only is an interesting development.

 

It's not the only sport to be changed for TV / the Olympics. For example, table tennis increased the ball size and changed the scoring for TV.

 

 

As heart breaking as it was, watching the 470 women's race was some of the most fun I had watching racing.... Aside from when it all went south .

 

I agree, and the last race was particularly good. Jo Aleh and Polly Powrie had possibly one of the biggest clawbacks I've ever seen - nobody seems to be talking about the two DSQs they carried anymore - the first was dubious - they would have secured gold without that first DSQ. (And I have no problem with more medals heading south).

 

The other racing that was great to watch was the 49erFX - with 1 point separating the first four boats heading into the medal race. It made for excellent TV - I was absolutely captivated.

 

What's needed is a lift in the TV commentary. To forget about trying to pander to those who are watching sailing for the first time - and get into the tactics - and just call it. I missed the NZders blowing their lead in the 49erFX medal race by not covering - assumed (wrongly) that they were covering other boats - but they weren't and allowed the Brazilians to go left, get more pressure and take gold - they were lucky to come away with second. What gets me is that the commentators made very little mention of the mistake. Pretty sure that Peter Lester would have been aware (he's an ex OK dinghy world champ) - they did comment when the Brazilians got more pressure.

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You guys really do agree, but you are arguing from different angles.

 

Sailors enjoy thrills and good racing, mostly getting either from separate classes. Sailors choose which class they prefer and enjoy it. We have enough diversity to satisfy every one who sails.

 

But the Olympics is not really a sailing event, it's a multisport TV event for non sailing TV viewers, and non sailors do not understand tactics, wind shifts etc, but they can understand short episodes of speed and crashes. So the Olympics want more exciting boats, speed and crashes even if its not what at least half the sailors want.

 

WS will fight for the sailors but probably lose to the IOC who want a TV event. So they will adapt our sport for TV or end up out of the games.

Sailors are irrelevant, if there are no spectators, there can be no Gladiators, metaphorically speaking.

Gladiators watching Gladiators is like porn actors watching porn actors.

 

The changes made for TV are OK- while I liked the old Olympic course (Triangle - windward - leeward - triangle - beat to finish) it was more of a marathon - I love the shorter race formats - more races - and double points for the medal race with the best 10 only is an interesting development.

 

It's not the only sport to be changed for TV / the Olympics. For example, table tennis increased the ball size and changed the scoring for TV.

 

 

As heart breaking as it was, watching the 470 women's race was some of the most fun I had watching racing.... Aside from when it all went south .

 

I agree, and the last race was particularly good. Jo Aleh and Polly Powrie had possibly one of the biggest clawbacks I've ever seen - nobody seems to be talking about the two DSQs they carried anymore - the first was dubious - they would have secured gold without that first DSQ. (And I have no problem with more medals heading south).

 

The other racing that was great to watch was the 49erFX - with 1 point separating the first four boats heading into the medal race. It made for excellent TV - I was absolutely captivated.

 

What's needed is a lift in the TV commentary. To forget about trying to pander to those who are watching sailing for the first time - and get into the tactics - and just call it. I missed the NZders blowing their lead in the 49erFX medal race by not covering - assumed (wrongly) that they were covering other boats - but they weren't and allowed the Brazilians to go left, get more pressure and take gold - they were lucky to come away with second. What gets me is that the commentators made very little mention of the mistake. Pretty sure that Peter Lester would have been aware (he's an ex OK dinghy world champ) - they did comment when the Brazilians got more pressure.

 

The changes made for TV are OK

Sorry OK does not cut it

 

What's needed is a lift in the TV commentary.

You cannot put lipstick on a pig and call it pretty.

Everything needs to be ditched. Especially British control over the sport.

It's too damn expensive for start ups and long term programs.

Without new blood we will be watching 50 year olds in 2024.

BORING

It was all great to watch if you were a sailor.

 

Anyone ever hear of a Paradigm Shift?

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Racing sailors are a relatively small group

 

Racing sailors participate or they quit paining attention

 

Those who would watch ANY sailboat race are a tiny group

 

Track, swimming, gymnastics, volleyball, are super easy to comprehend simply by observation.

We watch because the repeatedly see "wow!! That person can do that??" moments

 

Threre really is not much to see in a sailboat race

"Wow!! They saw that shift coming??" Is just not something easily televised. .

 

Personally?? I would prefer sailing NOT be in the Olympics.

all I see happening because of the Olympics is an increase in the cost of playing the game.

Fur certain, a huge amount if the world of sailing's redources go to the minuscule percentage who participate in the Olympics.

I don't think the resources are well spent

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The changes made for TV are OK - while I liked the old Olympic course (Triangle - windward - leeward - triangle - beat to finish) it was more of a marathon - I love the shorter race formats - more races - and double points for the medal race with the best 10 only is an interesting development.

I spent a day on the shoreline of the medal race course at Weymouth 2012 and what you didn't necessarily get from the TV was that you wouldn't run a Nationals on that course let alone a World Championship. It was small, breeze coming off a shoreline, shifty as hell.

 

The medal course in Rio was much worse.

 

No I don't like the medal race concept. It's not a fair way to decide an event.

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http://www.nbcolympics.com/video/womens-49erfx-medal-race-video-highlight-rio-olympics

Yup boring. Dawg Gonit thinks that racing is going to be chopped from the Olympics because it it's too boring.

Here's nearly 3.5 hours of racing (the marathon):

 

 

WHich is more exciting?

 

Which is more exciting, a discussion on tactics for the marathon, or sailing?

How about equipment?

 

Or the conditions?

 

The sailing commentary does need to improve - and it seems to be getting better over time generally - though I don't think Rio was as good as London.

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The changes made for TV are OK - while I liked the old Olympic course (Triangle - windward - leeward - triangle - beat to finish) it was more of a marathon - I love the shorter race formats - more races - and double points for the medal race with the best 10 only is an interesting development.

I spent a day on the shoreline of the medal race course at Weymouth 2012 and what you didn't necessarily get from the TV was that you wouldn't run a Nationals on that course let alone a World Championship. It was small, breeze coming off a shoreline, shifty as hell.

 

The medal course in Rio was much worse.

 

No I don't like the medal race concept. It's not a fair way to decide an event.

 

 

Very cool that you were at Weymouth.

 

I grew up with very shifty small lake sailing - and to this day love many short legs, shifty gusty winds and flat water. It makes for close racing, can recall 50 plus boats of different classes trying to round a buoy in 0-2 knots - bedlam. In spite of the conditions, the same people keep doing well - this is because of skill and fitness (both mental and physical).

 

The medal race is fair in the sense that it is the same for everyone - however I completely get what you are saying. It's unusual, most other sailing championships are not sailed that way - though there is a tendency to copy the Olympics. Double points are kind of compensated by the reduced fleet size. For the most part, the medalists still finished near the front - there were exceptions. And for several classes, the medals were decided before the start of the medal race - for several classes DFL in the medal race meant less points than when the whole fleet sailed.

 

It's just a little different.

 

There's a big part of me that wants upwind finishes - these newfangled downwind finishes are different - but having competed with both - they are fine - it's still a race, and the tactics are much the same - and it's the same for everyone - the good sailors just adjust and get on with it.

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I agree, and the last race was particularly good. Jo Aleh and Polly Powrie had possibly one of the biggest clawbacks I've ever seen - nobody seems to be talking about the two DSQs they carried anymore - the first was dubious - they would have secured gold without that first DSQ.

Not actually correct. Even if Aleh and Powrie had not been chucked from race 1 and their 6th place had counted, they would still have gone into the medal race behind Mills and Clark. Surely you realise that Mills and Clark only came 8th in the medal race because all they had to do was make sure they finished and with no penalties and therefore their strategy was simply to stay out of everybody's way. If they had a team closer to them, they would have sailed a very different medal race. To say that Aleh and Powrie would have won gold without the DSQ is simply wrong. They would have needed to finish 3 places ahead of the Brits in the medal race in order to win gold. Who knows if they could have achieved that.

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The medal course in Rio was much worse.

 

No I don't like the medal race concept. It's not a fair way to decide an event.

I don't think anyone lucked a medal though - they were all worthy winners.

 

I like the medal race concept, but not the execution. Of the 100 boats in the medal races, competing for 10 gold medals, how many could actually win a gold medal? About 15. And probably less than half could win a medal of any colour going into the medal race.

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The medal course in Rio was much worse.

 

No I don't like the medal race concept. It's not a fair way to decide an event.

I don't think anyone lucked a medal though - they were all worthy winners.

 

I like the medal race concept, but not the execution. Of the 100 boats in the medal races, competing for 10 gold medals, how many could actually win a gold medal? About 15. And probably less than half could win a medal of any colour going into the medal race.

 

There have been some who have won due to incredible skill, such as we saw in the Lasers this year, and then there are those who lose out due to simple bad luck when they could do nothing about it, such as Ian Percy in 2012. having lead every day of the event and seemingly well in control of the medal race and cruising to gold, after starting the last run and committing to going the only way that made sense, a gust from nowhere that could never have been predicted turned the fleet inside out losing Perc the gold. To have sailed close to a perfect series and then to lose it on the last leg when there was nothing he could do showed just how arbitrary the medal race can be.

 

There has to be something wrong with a scoring system if it is possible (theoretically) to win all 10 races before the medal race and still lose the event to somebody who comes 3rd in all 10 races (do the math!!)

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That scenario is only possible if the sailor who had previously won every race came 10th (last) in the medal race and the other (consistently good) sailor won. Even then they would still get a bronze medal at worst, and the sailor who scored 30 points in the lead up series and won the medal race would be a worthy gold medallist imo.

 

In my simplistic view, it is difficult to comprehend how someone who came last in a medal race could claim to be hard done by for not getting the gold medal.

 

If they lost because of a third party incident you would seek redress. If they lost because of gear failure that is akin to Usain Bolt tripping over his shoe laces or Jason Kenny's front wheel falling off avoidable schoolboy error. If they lost just because they finished last, I find it hard to believe that there was no tactical or strategic choice that could have led to a different outcome, no matter how flukey the wind.

 

 

However, I do agree that not every sailing event in the Olympics should have a medal race. The way Olympic sailing is set up there is only one event, fleet racing, which is repeated across 10 classes. That is like track cycling only having the keiron, raced on 10 different frame sizes and wheel designs. We could have relay races, match races, team races, elimination races, long distance races, time trials, etc. The variety would make for better TV and potentially allow sailors to compete in more than one event.

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http://www.nbcolympics.com/video/womens-49erfx-medal-race-video-highlight-rio-olympics

 

Yup boring. Dawg Gonit thinks that racing is going to be chopped from the Olympics because it it's too boring.

 

Here's nearly 3.5 hours of racing (the marathon):

 

 

WHich is more exciting?

 

Which is more exciting, a discussion on tactics for the marathon, or sailing?

How about equipment?

 

Or the conditions?

 

The sailing commentary does need to improve - and it seems to be getting better over time generally - though I don't think Rio was as good as London.

 

You take my comments as though it's boring to the Sailor, which it is not. I watched as much as I could but missed the Finn's outside in a breeze. I like it because I am a sailor.

 

Sailing is boring to the average viewer because it is a sport they cannot participate in readily and do not understand the complexity of the rules. Though to a sailor, the rules are not that complex, only in a pile up.

Every single person even the disabled can get out in shoes or their wheelchairs and tool around just like a runner. I ride my handcycle just like a bicycle racer. I even watch the TDF as boring as it gets at times. But the average person, can pretend (race) participate.

 

You just do not get it.

 

What fracking planet are you from?

I think you want to be catered too.

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2014 Chicago marathon. 40,000 participants and 1million people lining the route to watch. Boring is in the eye of the beholder.

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Reports showed olympic sailing to be 74th of 77 sports in total audience for London and similar in Beijing. Can you please point to a report that shows the 'strong following' of Olympic Sailing?

 

 

 

 

 

In the mean-time (in the real world), Olympic Sailing has a strong following,

 

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2014 Chicago marathon. 40,000 participants and 1million people lining the route to watch. Boring is in the eye of the beholder.

beerholder.

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The problem is also that Olympic sailing doesn't have a lot to offer for a TV audience between the Olympic games, although I have to admit that the 49er worlds were pretty cool to watch live

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2014 Chicago marathon. 40,000 participants and 1million people lining the route to watch. Boring is in the eye of the beholder.

 

We are talking about watching it on the Tele.

 

Of the 1 million lining the street, what else did they have to do? Go sailing at Belmont or Monroe?

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I agree, and the last race was particularly good. Jo Aleh and Polly Powrie had possibly one of the biggest clawbacks I've ever seen - nobody seems to be talking about the two DSQs they carried anymore - the first was dubious - they would have secured gold without that first DSQ.

Not actually correct. Even if Aleh and Powrie had not been chucked from race 1 and their 6th place had counted, they would still have gone into the medal race behind Mills and Clark. Surely you realise that Mills and Clark only came 8th in the medal race because all they had to do was make sure they finished and with no penalties and therefore their strategy was simply to stay out of everybody's way. If they had a team closer to them, they would have sailed a very different medal race. To say that Aleh and Powrie would have won gold without the DSQ is simply wrong. They would have needed to finish 3 places ahead of the Brits in the medal race in order to win gold. Who knows if they could have achieved that.

 

Using the same logic, Aleh and Powrie would have sailed differently in races 5 & 6, where they bombed in race five with an uncharacteristic 12, then mucked up race six for their second DSQ. Both admit to having a few head issues before getting it all together from race 7. It's all conjecture and speculation about the what if - including not just the medal race but other races prior. On points - if they were allowed to carry their 6th in race on and their first in race six, then they would have secured gold. Statements like this are not meant to address that subsequent races would have been sailed differently - they would have been for sure.

 

In the end, they carried 21 points - and the gold was won by 10 - and I know there could be many spins on it - what can't be disputed was that it took a huge amount of mental toughness and sailing skill to claw back to second.

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[OT Aside]

 

I'm astonished to see that USA have yet to medal in the rowing, with half the finals rowed.

 

[/OTA]

 

Interesting free ebook about the failure of the US rowing team at Rio - particularly the men. I'm struck by the similarities between this and what's reported for sailing - primarily youth development that is unrelated to international success and more about college competition.

 

https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B5Vxjl6CZONyZjJuX1hIS3ptSUE/view

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Great READ!!

 

"Today, we point to Britain’s lottery funding

to explain their success. But British lottery funds are awarded to winners, not laggards. Lottery funding was awarded after

 

 

And the solution

 

In the 70’s,

 

Britain’s adults reorganized to succeed in international competition. They started their kids in sculling boats

 

And the big question for the USA ...

 

DO WE CARE about international success at this sport.... or are we content with participating at the country club level?

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Great READ!!

 

"Today, we point to Britain’s lottery funding

 

to explain their success. But British lottery funds are awarded to winners, not laggards. Lottery funding was awarded after

 

 

And the solution

 

In the 70’s,

 

Britain’s adults reorganized to succeed in international competition. They started their kids in sculling boats

 

And the big question for the USA ...

 

DO WE CARE about international success at this sport.... or are we content with participating at the country club level?

 

it depends on what theory you ascribe to... Is it better to groom the hell out of those that don't burn out, or to have a healthy club atmosphere and those that rise to the top can be groomed.

 

I saw it in the 29er. I like the boat because its a lot more fun to sail than the 420. I'm closing in on 30yo and i still love the 29er. If a few other old people want to get an old people's class together i'd be all-in. Especially now that we can finally adjust the damn rig on the water..... But, back when i was actively racing the boat, there were certain sailors and parents that only saw it as a pre-olympics path and didn't care a whole lot about trying to promote it locally in the states. They saw it as this elite thing that if you weren't on the path, why be in the boat?

 

I think if we have a healthy home fleet of quality racers, we will do better on the olympic stage, in all fleets.

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Great READ!!

 

"Today, we point to Britain’s lottery funding

 

to explain their success. But British lottery funds are awarded to winners, not laggards. Lottery funding was awarded after

 

 

And the solution

 

In the 70’s,

 

Britain’s adults reorganized to succeed in international competition. They started their kids in sculling boats

 

And the big question for the USA ...

 

DO WE CARE about international success at this sport.... or are we content with participating at the country club level?

 

it depends on what theory you ascribe to... Is it better to groom the hell out of those that don't burn out, or to have a healthy club atmosphere and those that rise to the top can be groomed.

 

I saw it in the 29er. I like the boat because its a lot more fun to sail than the 420. I'm closing in on 30yo and i still love the 29er. If a few other old people want to get an old people's class together i'd be all-in. Especially now that we can finally adjust the damn rig on the water..... But, back when i was actively racing the boat, there were certain sailors and parents that only saw it as a pre-olympics path and didn't care a whole lot about trying to promote it locally in the states. They saw it as this elite thing that if you weren't on the path, why be in the boat?

 

I think if we have a healthy home fleet of quality racers, we will do better on the olympic stage, in all fleets.

 

 

That mentality is still in the class but at least now it is actively being addressed and steps are being made to open up the class to all ability levels and just getting kids interested in skiff sailing. The problem is all it takes is a few parents who think their kids are too good to sail with the others that can set regional growth back several years

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Great READ!!

 

"Today, we point to Britain’s lottery funding

 

to explain their success. But British lottery funds are awarded to winners, not laggards. Lottery funding was awarded after

 

 

And the solution

 

In the 70’s,

 

Britain’s adults reorganized to succeed in international competition. They started their kids in sculling boats

 

And the big question for the USA ...

 

DO WE CARE about international success at this sport.... or are we content with participating at the country club level?

 

it depends on what theory you ascribe to... Is it better to groom the hell out of those that don't burn out, or to have a healthy club atmosphere and those that rise to the top can be groomed.

 

I saw it in the 29er. I like the boat because its a lot more fun to sail than the 420. I'm closing in on 30yo and i still love the 29er. If a few other old people want to get an old people's class together i'd be all-in. Especially now that we can finally adjust the damn rig on the water..... But, back when i was actively racing the boat, there were certain sailors and parents that only saw it as a pre-olympics path and didn't care a whole lot about trying to promote it locally in the states. They saw it as this elite thing that if you weren't on the path, why be in the boat?

 

I think if we have a healthy home fleet of quality racers, we will do better on the olympic stage, in all fleets.

 

 

That mentality is still in the class but at least now it is actively being addressed and steps are being made to open up the class to all ability levels and just getting kids interested in skiff sailing. The problem is all it takes is a few parents who think their kids are too good to sail with the others that can set regional growth back several years

 

it got realll young all of a sudden, and some of those little kids are really good, but i really enjoyed racing well into real life. If i had easier access to sailing and crew i would probably continue racing it, even if i was racing against a bunch of 14yo's... when i was active the average hovered around 17 i think, i raced until i was 24. I would guess the average is around 15 now, with a lot racing that are even younger. This is based off my last race in 2014.

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Great READ!!

 

"Today, we point to Britain’s lottery funding

 

to explain their success. But British lottery funds are awarded to winners, not laggards. Lottery funding was awarded after

 

 

And the solution

 

In the 70’s,

 

Britain’s adults reorganized to succeed in international competition. They started their kids in sculling boats

 

And the big question for the USA ...

 

DO WE CARE about international success at this sport.... or are we content with participating at the country club level?

Note that rowing in the UK and sailing in the US and Canada are not really the same beast. I've not had a chance to read the US Rowing report, but something to know about the UK's rowing system to which they are referring here is that it's very intense and still maintains a huge amount of grass-roots support. The British system for talent identification and streaming is quite spectacular, and rowing is no exception, so you have a strong group of top level rowers showing off the country on a stage that is in the public eye (rowing is covered in the general media reasonably regularly). At the club level, they have a density that's spectacular, and anywhere you can row on is used, even rivers that are too narrow to turn the boats around in (they have spinning spots every once in a while that are just about wide enough). This means that there are local competitions all summer that are well attended (a few hundred competitors is a standard weekend) and you can probably race every other weekend without driving more than an hour or two if you're reasonably centrally located.

Unfortunately sailing in the US and NA in general isn't there on either of these fronts. We don't have sailors who regularly make it into the mainstream news and we don't have close-packed facilities that allow fleet racing every weekend without significant travel. Never mind that the costs for a club rower in the UK are a small fraction of joining a sailing club around here (I paid less than 200USD for a membership which included access to a fleet of boats, equipment, and facilities while I was there, it was cheaper than a gym membership).

If you want to grow and compare yourself to a system that thrives on a critical density, you need to get at least close to that density first. Then you'll see increased participation, talent floating to the top, etc. Of course it's much harder to get there than be there, success breeds success and all that.

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I think if we have a healthy home fleet of quality racers, we will do better on the olympic stage, in all fleets.

 

That's not quite what we have found in the UK. Sure, in the UK we have strong grass roots in local classes, but the guys who go Olympic sailing and do well tend to steer away from that and go down the conventional youth routes and then onto the Olympic classes. These days, home fleet sailing doesn't seem to be on the agenda for those sailors, unless they have free time in addition to the pathway route they have chosen.

 

The UK used have the system you describe, with a strong club scene and the cream from that went olympic sailing . That didn't produce the results. I think the real key is to properly support the pathway. By the time kids have proven themselves good enough for the olympic classes, it is getting too late to teach them in how to train and campaign. The youth scene in the UK trains the kids so it simply becomes a natural progression to olympic campaigning, rather than a leap. even then, on "graduating" from the youth scene, you would join the development squad, who train the same way as and with the full olympic guys. I think another key to this is to create a collegiate spirit in the youth classes that then continues up as you move to the Olympic scene. Look at how Team GBR has usually worked for each other to get everybody up to the required standard. Too often we see at youth level competitive parents who don't get that and that hurts their kids in the long run.

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it got realll young all of a sudden, and some of those little kids are really good, but i really enjoyed racing well into real life. If i had easier access to sailing and crew i would probably continue racing it, even if i was racing against a bunch of 14yo's... when i was active the average hovered around 17 i think, i raced until i was 24. I would guess the average is around 15 now, with a lot racing that are even younger. This is based off my last race in 2014.

 

 

 

And the big question for the USA ...

 

 

 

DO WE CARE about international success at this sport.... or are we content with participating at the country club level?

it depends on what theory you ascribe to... Is it better to groom the hell out of those that don't burn out, or to have a healthy club atmosphere and those that rise to the top can be groomed.

 

I saw it in the 29er. I like the boat because its a lot more fun to sail than the 420. I'm closing in on 30yo and i still love the 29er. If a few other old people want to get an old people's class together i'd be all-in. Especially now that we can finally adjust the damn rig on the water..... But, back when i was actively racing the boat, there were certain sailors and parents that only saw it as a pre-olympics path and didn't care a whole lot about trying to promote it locally in the states. They saw it as this elite thing that if you weren't on the path, why be in the boat?

 

I think if we have a healthy home fleet of quality racers, we will do better on the olympic stage, in all fleets.

 

 

I

 

 

 

 

Great READ!!

 

 

 

And the big question for the USA ...

 

 

 

DO WE CARE about international success at this sport.... or are we content with participating at the country club level?

 

it depends on what theory you ascribe to... Is it better to groom the hell out of those that don't burn out, or to have a healthy club atmosphere and those that rise to the top can be groomed.

 

I saw it in the 29er. I like the boat because its a lot more fun to sail than the 420. I'm closing in on 30yo and i still love the 29er. If a few other old people want to get an old people's class together i'd be all-in. Especially now that we can finally adjust the damn rig on the water..... But, back when i was actively racing the boat, there were certain sailors and parents that only saw it as a pre-olympics path and didn't care a whole lot about trying to promote it locally in the states. They saw it as this elite thing that if you weren't on the path, why be in the boat?

 

I think if we have a healthy home fleet of quality racers, we will do better on the olympic stage, in all fleets.

 

 

That mentality is still in the class but at least now it is actively being addressed and steps are being made to open up the class to all ability levels and just getting kids interested in skiff sailing. The problem is all it takes is a few parents who think their kids are too good to sail with the others that can set regional growth back several years

 

it got realll young all of a sudden, and some of those little kids are really good, but i really enjoyed racing well into real life. If i had easier access to sailing and crew i would probably continue racing it, even if i was racing against a bunch of 14yo's... when i was active the average hovered around 17 i think, i raced until i was 24. I would guess the average is around 15 now, with a lot racing that are even younger. This is based off my last race in 2014.

 

Is this the market that the new Rondar High Performance Dinghy (name unknown at moment) is aimed at ?

 

From what little we know (its all rumors and innuendo at the moment) it is supposedly a high performance hull based on a skiff design + assym chute. The chat is that they are aiming at the 20-35 yrs old who wants a 2 person dinghy exciting, lighter and faster than RS 200/400, moderately easy to master, not positioned for the Olympic track sailor but for someone who wants to sail at their local club after college in something a lot more modern and exciting than the venerable Vanguard 15. and a lot less expensive than a 505,

 

But good luck with getting any information from Rondar. You would think they are protecting the trade secrets of the Iphone 8 from Samsung by how tightly they are holding their cards to the chest.

 

They sound like laudable objectives but its all in the execution ......and until Rondar grace us with a look at the boat, and some demos in the US we dont know.

 

 

On topic......I think there is room in sailing for both the Olympic track sailors and the rest of us. I personally love watching Olympic sailing and I find the whole Olympic spectacle super exciting. I also love racing sailboats at my rather mediocre and amateur level. I find nothing wrong with enjoying both my local club racing and watching Olympic sailing. I find all this angst about how much money is spent on Olympic teams by the national sailing groups as rather silly. If they can raise the money...go for it. Some people seem to think that it is money that could be better spent on the sport in general. What nonsense. Its a hobby. We should be able to pay for our recreational sailing ourselves. I no more expect funds from US Sailing to fund our local club than I expect the profits from Formula One to be redistributed to help my hubby with the cost of replacing the bits that fall off his clapped out Porsche.

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On topic......I think there is room in sailing for both the Olympic track sailors and the rest of us. I personally love watching Olympic sailing and I find the whole Olympic spectacle super exciting. I also love racing sailboats at my rather mediocre and amateur level. I find nothing wrong with enjoying both my local club racing and watching Olympic sailing. I find all this angst about how much money is spent on Olympic teams by the national sailing groups as rather silly. If they can raise the money...go for it. Some people seem to think that it is money that could be better spent on the sport in general. What nonsense. Its a hobby. We should be able to pay for our recreational sailing ourselves. I no more expect funds from US Sailing to fund our local club than I expect the profits from Formula One to be redistributed to help my hubby with the cost of replacing the bits that fall off his clapped out Porsche.

Well said!

 

First event of the new quad saw a talented US Sailor, Rielly Gibbs, hop on the N17 with an olympic crew and finish 6th overall, while the Olympic helm was well back.

Talent can hop classes and do very very well... The gap to a medal may be huge... but that's the beauty of the game.

 

I think the current British system is the way forward... ID the talent early and coach them up outside the collegiate sailing machine.

 

Step one.... reorganization Charlie McKee is moving on and he was responsible for the olympic development team.

 

Malcolm Page (Newport, R.I.), the Chief of U.S. Olympic Sailing. “The performance management of the team will fall under my position going forward,” said Page.

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On topic......I think there is room in sailing for both the Olympic track sailors and the rest of us. I personally love watching Olympic sailing and I find the whole Olympic spectacle super exciting. I also love racing sailboats at my rather mediocre and amateur level. I find nothing wrong with enjoying both my local club racing and watching Olympic sailing. I find all this angst about how much money is spent on Olympic teams by the national sailing groups as rather silly. If they can raise the money...go for it. Some people seem to think that it is money that could be better spent on the sport in general. What nonsense. Its a hobby. We should be able to pay for our recreational sailing ourselves. I no more expect funds from US Sailing to fund our local club than I expect the profits from Formula One to be redistributed to help my hubby with the cost of replacing the bits that fall off his clapped out Porsche.

Well said!

 

First event of the new quad saw a talented US Sailor, Rielly Gibbs, hop on the N17 with an olympic crew and finish 6th overall, while the Olympic helm was well back.

Talent can hop classes and do very very well... The gap to a medal may be huge... but that's the beauty of the game.

 

I think the current British system is the way forward... ID the talent early and coach them up outside the collegiate sailing machine.

 

Step one.... reorganization Charlie McKee is moving on and he was responsible for the olympic development team.

 

Malcolm Page (Newport, R.I.), the Chief of U.S. Olympic Sailing. “The performance management of the team will fall under my position going forward,” said Page.

 

the crew's union would like to have a word with you.

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Great READ!!

 

"Today, we point to Britain’s lottery funding

 

to explain their success. But British lottery funds are awarded to winners, not laggards. Lottery funding was awarded after

 

 

And the solution

 

In the 70’s,

 

Britain’s adults reorganized to succeed in international competition. They started their kids in sculling boats

 

And the big question for the USA ...

 

DO WE CARE about international success at this sport.... or are we content with participating at the country club level?

Note that rowing in the UK and sailing in the US and Canada are not really the same beast. I've not had a chance to read the US Rowing report, but something to know about the UK's rowing system to which they are referring here is that it's very intense and still maintains a huge amount of grass-roots support. The British system for talent identification and streaming is quite spectacular, and rowing is no exception, so you have a strong group of top level rowers showing off the country on a stage that is in the public eye (rowing is covered in the general media reasonably regularly). At the club level, they have a density that's spectacular, and anywhere you can row on is used, even rivers that are too narrow to turn the boats around in (they have spinning spots every once in a while that are just about wide enough). This means that there are local competitions all summer that are well attended (a few hundred competitors is a standard weekend) and you can probably race every other weekend without driving more than an hour or two if you're reasonably centrally located.

Unfortunately sailing in the US and NA in general isn't there on either of these fronts. We don't have sailors who regularly make it into the mainstream news and we don't have close-packed facilities that allow fleet racing every weekend without significant travel. Never mind that the costs for a club rower in the UK are a small fraction of joining a sailing club around here (I paid less than 200USD for a membership which included access to a fleet of boats, equipment, and facilities while I was there, it was cheaper than a gym membership).

If you want to grow and compare yourself to a system that thrives on a critical density, you need to get at least close to that density first. Then you'll see increased participation, talent floating to the top, etc. Of course it's much harder to get there than be there, success breeds success and all that.

 

 

Everything I read about the british system makes it seem like their rowing and sailing are set up similar to our soccer and basketball teams in that I could google some moderate sized town + youth sailing and get a dozen results of clubs in the area and a full schedule of practice and regattas a clear pathway of u12 u14 u16 u18 how much its going to cost and whatever else. Try doing it with sailing in the US and while there are some great programs out there that are up front and inviting they are usually very far away from each other making meaningful competition expensive. But how many youth programs are hidden away on some bougie yacht club website that wont mention prices or are only open to members. How many of these programs are at clubs with memberships who don't really care about youth sailing or are even actively against it. There are 2.5 million people in the city I live in and multiple yacht clubs, there is exactly 1 youth sailing program, there are 20 youth soccer clubs.

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set up similar to our soccer and basketball teams

 

not quite.... the elite... world class basketball players are one and done.... and that is ONLY because the NCAA and the NBA cut a deal to force the top talent into the basketball factories to play for a scholarship... not a salary. Now, If they wash out of the pro leagues... they can't take a college scholarship at 25 or 26 and play ball in college (paying off their scholarship by giving the team wins).

 

The strategy would be that the top sailors are ID'd in juniors and get sucked into the elite training programs (aka the NBA of sailing). The second tier of sailors would go off and sail in college and perhaps return to international competition as they do currently. ...

The flaw of course is the families of sailors are generally well off because we are talking about sailing or rowing ... not B Ball.... and they don't want their kid missing out on scholarships/admission to elite colleges.

 

My solution would be pull college sailing out of the NCAA rules and allow the kids who take their shot at elite international training and competition, get paid while competing etc. Then, when they decide to move on after a few years on the circuit... they can actually be admitted with a scholarship (for schools that do this in sailing). We are talking a very small number of athletes here. For those that worry about silliness like competitive imbalance, I offer up the UConn womans basketball team.... they might loose 4 games every 4 years they are so dominant.

 

Another solution would be to encourage colleges to offer admission with the right to defer admission for up to 4 years.... and not be penalized for getting paid to be on the US sailing team.

 

Changing the system would recognize that the critical period between 16/17 to 21/22 can't be missed in order to succeed at the world class level and win medals.

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True... but they follow the same principles.... And... for institutions... they have Title 9 requirements to balance... So it is complicated... .... for this discussion see C420s chair morgan's advice to 420 sailors about money and their junior sailing career.

 

hmmm

 

Insanity is doing the same thing over and over again..... I am looking for ideas that might realign incentives. Otherwise.... no worries... sailing is a lovely pastime and we won't compete on the international level.

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I don't know what the US deal is with the NCAA, it seems absurd some of the money being thrown around in college sports down there. But I competed in collegiate sailing through NEISA and thus ICSA's rules. The whole concept of "no scholarships specifically for sailing" is nice to know that I'm not competing against kids who are going to school just to be the next best thing to a professional sailor. If you want to get kids to the international stage in sports like sailing and rowing the way the UK has managed you have to remove the "college" mentality about it nationally, and you have to start investing in talent ID systems. Once you implement it it's going to take 1 or 2 cycles before you see returns on your investment, that's how long it will take to suck up all the potential youth talent and push it through the meat grinder.

 

I've got friends who went through the UK systems for both sailing and rowing (both to a reasonable degree), and I've talked to people who have gone through the development programs for other sports. The first thing I noticed was that by and large it's a national talent ID system, that means that the sports' governing bodies cooperate to find talent, and if rowing finds somebody who might be a great swimmer or football finds a potentially amazing sailor, there's a decent chance the athlete will at some point be aimed towards their "ideal" sport. Once in the system it's a grinder that works by extreme attrition. The outcome is that you end up with a lot of dissatisfied kids on the other end, a good number will drop competitive sports, some will stick around because they enjoy it, and some will drift around other sports until they find something they actually enjoy, but it isn't filling local clubs and racing scenes.

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I've got friends who went through the UK systems for both sailing and rowing (both to a reasonable degree), and I've talked to people who have gone through the development programs for other sports. The first thing I noticed was that by and large it's a national talent ID system, that means that the sports' governing bodies cooperate to find talent, and if rowing finds somebody who might be a great swimmer or football finds a potentially amazing sailor, there's a decent chance the athlete will at some point be aimed towards their "ideal" sport. Once in the system it's a grinder that works by extreme attrition. The outcome is that you end up with a lot of dissatisfied kids on the other end, a good number will drop competitive sports, some will stick around because they enjoy it, and some will drift around other sports until they find something they actually enjoy, but it isn't filling local clubs and racing scenes.

Although I have been out of the system for a while, I cannot remember a single instance of anybody being aimed towards another sport like you suggest.

 

I also don't recognise the "grinder" analogy you raise and in particular, the dissatisfied kids you refer to. Research and statistics suggest that the youth system actually does OK in terms of retention when compared with other sports. Attrition of youth involvement happens in all sports and most sports pay a great deal of attention to it. Girls fall away before boys, but even so, once past school age, there is a real problem. In sailing, there is a view that we are going to lose a certain percentage of all youth sailors whatever we do. Some come back to the sport after university and when they have good paid employment, but some are lost forever. It doesn't matter what the system is, this will happen. For the rest of the youth program, we see those who don't advance and who stay in the sport move to non Olympic and youth squad boats. Because of their involvement in junior development programs, they tend to do fairly well, and certainly better than kids that come up through the club routes. This keeps them in the sport.

 

The strength of the GBR youth programs is the open nature of it. There are squads that are selected and supported, but the key classes hold open training so that even the sailors who haven't yet proven themselves get help. These weekends and summer camps are not only great for the sailing, but the social side is huge, which is something else that keeps kids in the sport.

 

You can never satisfy 100% of the people, 100% of the time, but on most fronts, the GBR youth system is rather good and probably the best there is.

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ICSA is not associated with the NCAA one iota. They might have similar rules philosophies but they are separate entities.

 

The US does have as youth talent search and development through the USDT, who i got to do a couple of very good clinics with (i was never a USDT member) and learned a lot from USDT members.

 

 

 

The ICSA does serve it s purpose though, it gets sailors on the water competing.

 

What the ICSA does not do is "allow"/encourage olympic development. I have proposed on these forums, multiple times, that there should be an OCR component to the ICSA regattas. Carry "points" for competing in Miami OCR, maybe make a second regatta. Count "points" from sailing world cup events internationally ,etc. Give some sort of encouragement to sail olympic classes, to move beyond the boundaries of the ICSA classes.

 

*i put points in quotations because the college rankings are not objective points based off of results but qualitative votes from various coaches or whoever's opinion is counted.

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The whole concept of "no scholarships specifically for sailing" is nice to know that I'm not competing against kids who are going to school just to be the next best thing to a professional sailor. If you want to get kids to the international stage in sports like sailing and rowing the way the UK has managed you have to remove the "college" mentality

three points.. not competing against the next best pro. to each their own.... In BBall.... you can select a less competitive school to play intercollegiate xxx in. The "maintain the competition levels" or "lets have a level playing field" is a bit self serving for the school and the athlete. IMO, Pick your level and play full out. Post College.... there are plenty of Bball leagues at all levels to play for fun (after school)... Sailing sorts us into OD classes and pro/am. ONCE UPON A TIME.... the Olympics were for amateur (cough cough cough) athletes.... just saying to be wary of rules that control the competition.

 

RE... burnout or dissatisfied kids matriculating into the club scene as life long racers.... oh wow... if we only had that as our biggest problem... I don't have a clue... so.... I take the point of view.... it is what it is.... I also can't think of any club scene that would not want skilled racers participating.

 

Removing the college mentality..... Well that is the challenge.... I don't think you can take away any thing from college sailing and the parental/student mindset...and make a difference. History provides the data.... So time for some changes... I propose rule changes that add to the game by removing any perceived penalty .... (short and long term) ... the idea is... adjust the incentives to align with international competition.

 

I would love to consider other alternatives.... but continuing with no changes would be insane... if you expect a different outcome.

 

Malcom Paige is making some changes in the USA.... I hope he has a better solutions then the past and look forward to seeing what he has in mind.

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What the ICSA does not do is "allow"/encourage olympic development. I have proposed on these forums, multiple times, that there should be an OCR component to the ICSA regattas. Carry "points" for competing in Miami OCR, maybe make a second regatta. Count "points" from sailing world cup events internationally ,etc. Give some sort of encouragement to sail olympic classes, to move beyond the boundaries of the ICSA classes.

"does not allow/encourage olympic development".... NO.... cannot be.... they SAY they are fully supportive.

 

To your proposal

So... 10 olympic classes (boards, Lasers, Finn) at 5 developmental team members would be 25 athletes at 5 per team. Double handed dinghys skiffs multis. at 3 teams per is 30 more athletes. So... you have 55 athletes max on the teams and perhaps 45 more who would love an invite... that is at most 100 athletes... I don't see the pressure on ICSA that would change their policies for those 100 athletes.

 

Change the rules and let those that can get some outside funding continue competing within ICSA . This seems more likely then your idea. What am I missing?

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