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patrikrosen

Old Tornado 21 rigging questions

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HI!

 

Me and my brother bought an old Tornado with plywood hulls and pretty old sail's. One main sail and one jib.

 

We wonder if this is rigged properly, its placed really high up.

We attended a sailing competition yesterday and experienced great speeds at half wind but the tacking angle was rather high and we think it has to do with the jib.

 

Best Regards Patrik

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Yes, your bridle/headstay joint is higher than normal for a T. But that has very little to do with pointing. You need to look at pics of T's sailing and talk to racing cat sailors. Your jib sheet attaches to the inboard side of the hull - it should be 14-16" inboard on a floating system. You have no mast rotation. Both your sails are tragic.

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That's a awesome boat and worthy of some effort. Don't be put off by the plywood hulls. I have a catamaran motorboat that uses plywood Tornado hulls that are more than 30 years old and still going strong even though they weren't that well built.

I used to have a Reg White Tornado with S-glass & foam hulls and those hulls had serious issues even though carefully built.

I loved that boat though. It was de-tuned a bit and set up with reefing. I took some long trips on the boat and thought of it as my favorite cruising boat.

Good used sails should be easy to find as it is a racing class. The jib tack does look a bit high, but lowering it will add more load to the headstay bridle.

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Well we only payed 350 usd for it, and added 200 usd on paint and some glass fiber. So we are OK with the tragic sails. Before we start to invest in new (used) sails we want to make sure that it holds together. We did 18 knots yesterday and it's still in one piece :)

 

Do you think it will hold together if we start to add another trapeze as well as a gennaker?

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Hi , i grew up sailing those old Ts. Even met Reg and Rodney March in the 70s.

That boat still has the original Seahorse sails and was made by sailcraft of england in the late 60s or early 70s. It may even have the original thumbscrew to hold the downhaul which i see you did not tighten very well. I think that is the original bridle length up front. The mast rotator arm is there. Some one took the jib bridle that went across the tramp off, which will hurts your pointing ability. They had a separate system to pull the jib outboard called a barber hauler for going downwind, but the jib should be sheeted more inboard for the beat.

That boat was not designed for double trap or spi. In fact it was a real achievement to make a boat that light in 1968. They held up well in the big breeze but only single trapped; so light double trap work maybe ok but i wouldn't shorten the bridle w/o adding a bow crossbar.

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Thank you for some more info! That's very interesting to hear! The hulls only leaks about 0.2-0.3L after a 2 hour ride so that's pretty OK I would guess.

 

Adding some more shots for you!

 

What kind of newer sails would fit this T do you think?

 

We're trying to figure out what the two long steel wires (covered with plastic protection) is for. Testing amother way to mount the sheet block a the moment but we might be out cycling :)

 

It's actually written 1973 on the sails, thought it was the birthday of the first owner or something but It might be when the sail is from :D

 

We've also figured out that the mesh is mounted upside down? We have a band/strap going along the both mesh sides that maybe should be upwards. We assumed that the printed logo should be facing upwards but maybe the idea is to show it to the world after tipping over (which I doubt we'll ever do, it feels very stabile)

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Your 2nd pic shows proper way of sheeting jib. Move outboard end for/aft on hull plate to adjust twist, & move blocks in/outboard to adjust pointing. What you show in pic looks to far inboard. Any T sails will work on your spar, but ALL newer sails will require a powerfull cunningham to shape properly.

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First of all is to take that shackle off of the boom rotation arm and run a piece of 5/16" dbl braid from the end to the shackle on the boom bail. That will let the mast rotate more. The line and arm are actually there to limit the degree of rotation so there should be a cam or jam cleat to easily adjust that. Let it off for reaching and adjust it so the lee surface of the sail and the backside of the mast profile are smooth. It also has a lot to do with your mast bend. This is an example but you could start with a simple 2:1 or 3:1 purchase.

 

mast-rotation-2.jpg

 

Looks like you have the two wires that form the jib lead cross bridle reversed putting the jib sheeting to far inboard. Take them apart and turn end for end so the short side is outboard. You can mount fore and aft along the row of holes to control jib twist but with the jib tack bridle so high as it is now the holes you are using for the sheet bridle looks pretty close. I had and old ply Tornado and it was way stiffer than any plastic boat except a carbon Marstrom. Good buy you made there.

 

That drum outhaul on the end of the boom is really a blast from the past!

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First of all is to take that shackle off of the boom rotation arm and run a piece of 5/16" dbl braid from the end to the shackle on the boom bail. That will let the mast rotate more. The line and arm are actually there to limit the degree of rotation so there should be a cam or jam cleat to easily adjust that. Let it off for reaching and adjust it so the lee surface of the sail and the backside of the mast profile are smooth. It also has a lot to do with your mast bend. This is an example but you could start with a simple 2:1 or 3:1 purchase.

 

 

There is an unused cleat in the middle of the boom that is almost certainly for this job. Put a small block on the rotation arm. Run a rope from the cleat, through the bail you currently have the rotation tied to, through the block on the arm and then tie it off onto the bail. For your purposes this will be fine.

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First of all is to take that shackle off of the boom rotation arm and run a piece of 5/16" dbl braid from the end to the shackle on the boom bail. That will let the mast rotate more. The line and arm are actually there to limit the degree of rotation so there should be a cam or jam cleat to easily adjust that. Let it off for reaching and adjust it so the lee surface of the sail and the backside of the mast profile are smooth. It also has a lot to do with your mast bend. This is an example but you could start with a simple 2:1 or 3:1 purchase.

 

mast-rotation-2.jpg

 

Looks like you have the two wires that form the jib lead cross bridle reversed putting the jib sheeting to far inboard. Take them apart and turn end for end so the short side is outboard. You can mount fore and aft along the row of holes to control jib twist but with the jib tack bridle so high as it is now the holes you are using for the sheet bridle looks pretty close. I had and old ply Tornado and it was way stiffer than any plastic boat except a carbon Marstrom. Good buy you made there.

 

That drum outhaul on the end of the boom is really a blast from the past!

I used to crew on a similar boat in the late 90's. That dolphin sails tramp with the pick pockets brought on a serious bout of nostalgia. !

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Made some adjustments today! Let's hope the tacking angle gets better.. I will try tomorrow. It vill be intresting to detach the mast rotation arm from the boom. Is it usually so that you manually adjust the mast angle when tacking? Any suggestions how to set the "new rope" under the boom? Does the sheet point look OK now?

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Outside of sail trim, check your mast rake. Attend a local Tornado regatta or regatta with Tornados and F18's/F16's. You will get lots of rigging tricks and sail trim tricks. A few words of caution, even a modern carbon rigged T with new sails doesn't quite point as high as a F16 or F18 with the very high aspect daggerboards. Really not worth changing as the stock T centerboards make for a great boat as is, probably the best distance racer and fast fast cruiser out there. The other caution is you will likely find the limit and flip at some point, even with the stability of the 10' wide beam, the best teams in the world will still flip!!

 

Also be forewarned that even as great a deal as you got on your boat, a Tornado is still a Tornado, i.e a full blown race boat, and as such parts = race boat prices. Fortunately there are lots of good used parts to be had for the T, more so in Europe than in the U.S.A

 

Your are likely OKAY adding a spinnaker to the boat, but like the lowered bridle, be careful with the additional load this adds to the hulls, especially in a hard stuff where even modern hulls rarely but occasionally fail. In the end you may be cheaper buying a nice used modern T with the double trap and spinnaker already added, those parts (self tacker, spinnaker sock and snuffer hoop, spinnaker itself, blocks, sheets etc.) will outstrip your original boat purchase price 10:1 (so $3K).

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HI all!

 

Been out testing today and our ability to position us higher towards the wind was way better after the adjustments.

 

Today we also tried to get one of the hulls to lift from the water. We've only had about 5-6 m/s here lately and with both of us (100kg+80kg) on the hull we haven't really lifted. When my brother moved to the other hull we could get the hull to get some air. Actually to the limit where we easely would have went over without adjusting the main sail. Our question now is:

 

Is there a point to adjust our positions on the cat to actually get the hull to lift? Or is it better to keep it flat as much as possible?

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Fastest angle is to just get windward hull out of the water, but c-board still immersed..

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Is there a halyard hook at the top of the mast? Your tack seems too low and you have no way to stretch out your luff right now which is important for good mast bend and sail shape.

 

Buy a new jib!....buy a new jib! or at least get one that wont flog on the leech. DO NOT lower the tack of your jib. this will increase the inward pull on your bows and very likely fold your boat up.

 

Cats are weird. main sheet is for twist and traveler is for trim (because you have no boom vang). watch the tell tales on the leeward side and ignore the ones to windward.

 

move your weight forward. you only move back going downwind. Don't drag your transoms in the water in light wind. Wheelies are super slow in cats.

 

Get your windward hull out ASAP. that means the crew is sitting to leeward at the front beam and getting a good soaking a lot of the time.

 

Leigh

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Not entirely true on the windward hull deal. In light air, upwind, we both sit on the weather hull upwind in the F18, with the crew as far forward as possible on the weather hull to get the transom out of the water. In super light air it may make sense for the crew to stay leeward upwind and far forward on the leeward hulls to prevent too much weather heel.

 

Downwind, crew is to leeward with the skipper sitting as far forward as possible and in the middle of the tramp playing the main trying to do the wild thing. On the classic T, you may be better off running everything super loosy or even trying to wing on wing the jib until there is enough breeze to consistently fly a hull downwind and bring the apparent far enough forward that you are turning downwind as you lift the hull.

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hey, you are making progress. That boat looks to be in good shape for it's age. Looks like the original jib and a newer main. They write the date on the sail after they measure it for a race.

The hyfield lever for the jib halyard and the wheel on the boom are both a real blast from the past. At some point you may want to upgrade some of the components.

flying the hull in light winds by sitting on the leeward side is fun till you capsize. Your mast will fill right up with water and you will have a real mess on your hands. Wait for a breeze. she will lift a hull gracefully and you can balance on 1 hull across the lake once you get dialed in.

ps i bought some used T sails off the beach cats site. They were the classic style like you have. There is a guy on a lake in cali that collected many old Ts and he parted most of them out.

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We've been out some more and I think we've got it to work pretty well. We'll also decided to keep the one handling the mainsail pretty static at a good position and let the one handling the job move inwards and outwards depending on the wind. We got some nice 5-10 sec "airtime" today :) Still not that windy but we did around 15 knots. Thank you all for the help we've received. Now the boat is on land and the sails are tucked away for vacation part two, which will be on the other side of the country from where we are now. Will do some more sailing in the autumn and I'll mount my go pro for some action as well.

 

I managed to strap my camera on the front bow at least to get some action on tape :)

 

https://www.instagram.com/p/BIH4juSgr5c/

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When did T's go to the jib luff "downsprit" that allowed the jib tack to go lower without moving the bridle? (picture a rod tied to the forestay that extends down past the bridle junction). I don't see that rig putting a lot of extra pull on the bridles. Looks like they have fixed the big issues, and doing more is kind of pointless with those sails :-) (Mast hook/downhaul excepted)

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Hello, here a Dutch guy with an old Tornado, the same as you, but we don't have the same fixation for the beams, the rings you have on top of them.

The hulls have been repaired, but now the beams don't fit well anymore. For me it would be helpfull to get those rings you have. Do you (or anyone else who reads this) have one (or more) or a draft on paper so I can make these? All reactions are welcome! solo.brandsma@gmail.com

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We have a couple of ply T's racing in our local fleet, complete with kites and twin trapeze. They go well, but with any old boat, things do break.

Look at rigging some righting ropes under the tramp. They make life a lot easier to right the boat following the capsize.

Check that the mast is watertight, otherwise you will never get it up.

They are a great boat to sail, and they will take all the money you have, and keep on asking for more.

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On 1/24/2018 at 1:54 AM, iefb said:

Hello, here a Dutch guy with an old Tornado, the same as you, but we don't have the same fixation for the beams, the rings you have on top of them.

The hulls have been repaired, but now the beams don't fit well anymore. For me it would be helpfull to get those rings you have. Do you (or anyone else who reads this) have one (or more) or a draft on paper so I can make these? All reactions are welcome! solo.brandsma@gmail.com

I don't think anyone is making those stainless steel straps that attach the beams on anymore, if that is what you are asking about? Those are easy enough to fabricate up, basically bent 0.090" stainless steel but if the hulls were repaired in such a manner that the beams don't go into the sockets you may have bigger issues.

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6 hours ago, samc99us said:

I don't think anyone is making those stainless steel straps that attach the beams on anymore, if that is what you are asking about? Those are easy enough to fabricate up, basically bent 0.090" stainless steel but if the hulls were repaired in such a manner that the beams don't go into the sockets you may have bigger issues.

Thanks, since the beams at the front and the rear are not the same, my question is if the stainless steel straps aren't different as well. The beams don't fit in the sockets well, but my idea is that I can make them fit if I have the stainless steel straps or the specs of the straps to make them myself, so I can adjust the sockets. The most important is the front beam, since the mast is standing on top of that. 

 

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The ss straps are nothing special. The straps on the old Panthercraft I used to race were barely bent to fit. The fit of the beam into the socket IS critical to reduce wracking of the hulls. That fit needs to be as tight as you can make it.

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If going for beam straps, check Nacra, they used it in their previous designs. 0.090 seems right, 7/8" width.

iefb, show some images, this would help.

 

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It looks like you have the trampoline upside down. You definately want the hiking straps on the upside :-)

Check for rot - especially around leaks. Centerboard case is a hot tip, as is any through hull fittings like bridle tangs and chainplates.
Also check that bridle tangs and chainplates are not loose. If loose, they will pull out at the worst possible time. I.e. strong winds and great fun.
Replacing all the wires is also a good move if you intend to sail in some wind. Old wires are prone to corrosion and breakage.

There is Tornado group on Yahoo with lots of knowledge about the older models. https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/TornadoCat

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