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      Abbreviated rules   07/28/2017

      Underdawg did an excellent job of explaining the rules.  Here's the simplified version: Don't insinuate Pedo.  Warning and or timeout for a first offense.  PermaFlick for any subsequent offenses Don't out members.  See above for penalties.  Caveat:  if you have ever used your own real name or personal information here on the forums since, like, ever - it doesn't count and you are fair game. If you see spam posts, report it to the mods.  We do not hang out in every thread 24/7 If you see any of the above, report it to the mods by hitting the Report button in the offending post.   We do not take action for foul language, off-subject content, or abusive behavior unless it escalates to persistent stalking.  There may be times that we might warn someone or flick someone for something particularly egregious.  There is no standard, we will know it when we see it.  If you continually report things that do not fall into rules #1 or 2 above, you may very well get a timeout yourself for annoying the Mods with repeated whining.  Use your best judgement. Warnings, timeouts, suspensions and flicks are arbitrary and capricious.  Deal with it.  Welcome to anarchy.   If you are a newbie, there are unwritten rules to adhere to.  They will be explained to you soon enough.  
Bob Perry

The Four Carbon Cutters project

535 posts in this topic

On 8/2/2017 at 2:21 PM, Bob Perry said:

It was just a way to check if you guys were paying attention and apparently you are. Well done. The yard caught that a few days ago and corrected it.

So,,,,as long as you are QC'ing the project would you mind taking a look at these pics and let me know if you see anything backwards, or sideways.

024

Doesn't the track pin on jib cars usually go on the aft side?  At least all mine work this way.

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If those are Harken cars, pin is forwards.

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Quite a few of the Lewmar cars are pin aft

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My Merriman cars are pin aft. Of course, they are out of business so what do they know?

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On 8/7/2017 at 1:18 AM, Ishmael said:

My Merriman cars are pin aft. Of course, they are out of business so what do they know?

I believe that my Merriman cars will outlive me. And my kids.

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On 8/7/2017 at 1:18 AM, Ishmael said:

My Merriman cars are pin aft. Of course, they are out of business so what do they know?

Unlikely.

Merriman cars were built symmetrical. You could set them up pin aft but the sheeting side of things would work just as well pin forward. Making car position adjustments with pin aft could be fun.

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On 7/21/2017 at 0:23 PM, Bob Perry said:

JacK:

I agree. We are surrounded by a sea of sameness in the world of production boats today. I find them almost impossible to tell apart anymore. Now that I am winding down my output I hope to concentrate on boats that are the antithesis of the Euro production model. The four carbon cutters are a pretty good start. I'm currently working on a 50' version.

Here is an alternative layout to the 42'er.

I call it "the boat nobody would want " It has none of the features that people think are required today. I like it. It's straight out of 1962. The 52'er I am currently working on is along these lines but a more up to date underbody.

Lucky 2

 

I like this boat a lot. My favorite detail is the covered bucket in the aft cabin to save going forward to take a pee in the middle of the night or during a downpour. I never saw the sense for multiple heads in 4-5 person boat. The bucket is perfect solution as long as you don't serve asparagus the night before! 

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The older we get the more sense a bucket makes ...

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This is just too cool not to post:

Speaking of space capsules, here is Jim Betts working in his "argon sphere". He is welding up the inner forestang tang and staysail tack fitting for cutter no. 1. As I'm sure everyone here knows, you must weld Titanium in an argon gas environment. The plastic bubble extracts all the oxygen and replaces it with argon. Jim sticks his hands in the "gloves of protection" and welds away. It took about 5 minutes to inflate the sphere with argon. This sphere is made in Arlington, WA not too far from the shop. Is this cool or what?

090

 

086

 

087076

 

047

 

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Nope, custom designed and custom built by Jim Betts. Client is big on microwaves. The top is an induction cook top.

Carbon, titanium and mast jacks, just like any other cruising boat.

040

 

Half of our house battery bank:

032

 

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47 minutes ago, Bob Perry said:

This is just too cool not to post:

Speaking of space capsules, here is Jim Betts working in his "argon sphere". He is welding up the inner forestang tang and staysail tack fitting for cutter no. 1. As I'm sure everyone here knows, you must weld Titanium in an argon gas environment. The plastic bubble extracts all the oxygen and replaces it with argon. Jim sticks his hands in the "gloves of protection" and welds away. It took about 5 minutes to inflate the sphere with argon. This sphere is made in Arlington, WA not too far from the shop. Is this cool or what?

090

 

086

 

087076

 

047

 

Pretty cool titanium welding setup.

but why?  Titanium wear resistance is terrible compared to steel.  Even small rubbing of standing rigging will likely be a long term problem unless you want to replace the fittings every few years or less.

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We'll see. Just watch. This is not Jim's first experience with titanium.

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So can we get one of them there argon bubble-boy chambers big enough to build a Waikiki dinner-cruise titanium beach cat?

 

P.S. missed you today: I had plumbers and drywall guys over and was chasing around town, picking up hardware.

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8 minutes ago, Bob Perry said:

We'll see. Just watch. This is not Jim's first experience with titanium.

Ok.  I did fit up and raced on an 85 footer for trans Atlantic a few decades ago.   Had some titanium deck fittings and every hole had been worn away/elongated. We replaced every one with stainless before the race.

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bgytr:

Maybe it was a different titanium alloy. I'll let you know if we have issues. Titanium chainplates are quite common. We have them on FRANKIE and so far no signs of wear on that boat.

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There's a story that when Russia was making submarines out of Ti, they had a sealed building filled with argon; the welders wore suits with supplied air. 

 

 

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When I was doing some early research for the Ti Cat project that Jim is getting started on, I ran across a story that the US was desperately trying to round up an inventory of Titanium to begin building the SR-71 Blackbird recon plane, still the fastest non-rocket ever I think. 

    Seems the Soviets were stockpiling the Ti and our procurement guys were smart enough to create non- govt and none US buying agents to keep the Russians from suspecting that we might be doing such a militarily significant craft. Since the Soviets were using major amounts building their submarines at that time that subterfuge worked for a while but eventually they started to suspect we were up to something. Some smart analyst presenting his findings that substantial amounts of Ti were ending up in US hands and tried to set off the alarm, the big guys just laughed and said, 'So what? What are the Americans going to do with all that Titanium, build an airplane!?'

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Titanium is very good.  But there are lots of alloys, so you need to be selective.  CP (Chemically Pure) is not a good option for anything load-bearing.  Others are much better.

Also if you buy a bunch of cheap Ti scrap, especially if you suspect that it may have come from far, far away, it's a good idea to invest in a couple of mil surplus Geiger counters before you start machining.  

Don't ask me how I know that one.

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1 minute ago, Bob Perry said:

I'd like to hear that story Wop.

Bob, here you go.  

I was involved in a very hi-tech boat project int the UK in the 80s.  Our Ti metalworking supplier was insistent that he could hit our target prices for all sorts of parts, padeyes, chainplates, backing plates, stanchions, engine mounts, pulpits, you name it.  I was intrigued, but a bit doubtful, as his prices were the same as similar parts in stainless.  Eventually we went round to his "yard" and we saw a large collection of titanium scrap in a heap, from which he was drawing for his machined parts.  I asked him where it came from.  He told me, "Oh, over there," pointing East.

I went into London and bought a couple of basic Geiger counters and went back to have a gentle squint at the pile.  The whole heap was seriously hot.  

Now what?

That's a totally nother story, probably not suited for the interwebs.

But we went stainless.

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Wop:

I don't know where our Ti is coming from but this 60 cat project is CG inspected for charter so I suspect it's US. I do know that a 4 by 8 sheet of 1/8" ti cost almost $2,000.

 

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6 minutes ago, Bob Perry said:

Wop:

I don't know where our Ti is coming from but this 60 cat project is CG inspected for charter so I suspect it's US. I do know that a 4 by 8 sheet of 1/8" ti cost almost $2,000.

 

Still worth a quick swipe of every part with a counter to ensure it's all kosher.  Counters are cheap.

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21 minutes ago, P_Wop said:

 The whole heap was seriously hot.  

Now what?

and he doesn't mean stolen !

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I'll ask where the Ti comes from. Jim is pretty Jingoistic about materials. They tried to sell him Chinese cf and he gave them the boot.

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He gave them more than the boot! Jim was livid over those Ti guys and their visit. They actually brought a Chinese guy! I met the ringleader in Hawaii and he made it sound like he had rebuilt his rig with an assortment of Ti gear from his catalog. Turned out he had maybe two insignificant Ti replacement parts but he did make a good point on the poor bearing nature of Ti. Supposedly there are ceramic treatments to alleviate that but you don't see them making chain out of Ti. When we started the 50' (Bob...) cat in Ti for Hawaii the figures for CP2 was around $20 per sq ft. I do know that due to recent tightening up of Jones Act crap we have to be sure that all the Ti in the cat in US produced and have the grading decals and markings on them. We may have to waterjet and sell Sailing Anarchy Ti belt buckles from the scrap! 

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3 hours ago, Bob Perry said:

Nope, custom designed and custom built by Jim Betts. Client is big on microwaves. The top is an induction cook top.

Carbon, titanium and mast jacks, just like any other cruising boat.

040

 

Half of our house battery bank:

032

 

Wow. When Mr Lucky brings his cutter(s) down under he'll be able to plug into our National Grid and export zits to keep all the crappy EV's up and running. ;)

Nice set-up, Bob.

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Seven is an odd (literally!) for a number of batteries. Is that why the fwd battery is not hooked up yet?

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Savoir,

     Wouldn't that battery be right close to the starter motor on the engine that it was intended to serve? I'm sticking to my theory that there is a long settee and a short one. 7 Batts and 5 Batts respectively. Bob hinted as much.

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Wrong. Both settees are equal in length. Batteries are forward, aft and amidships under the settees.  Rasper is correct. Starting battery is next to engine. Seven batteries per side under settees. Do you guys want me to get the exact battery spec for you?

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Bob,    

   How soon one forgets... What batteries did the client decide on. Lots of new options available. I'm looking at BMW i8 batteries for the proposed electric drives for the Ti Cat. Big bucks though. When my client winces over the cost of such gear I just say, 'You were the guy who wanted a Titanium catamaran!'

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17 minutes ago, Rasputin22 said:

How about these examples for yacht jewelry on the Ti cat?

SaXf8Mv.png

I don't get it.  This looks like a miserable approach.  If you're going for shrouded efficiency, at least:

A. 5 or 7 blades, not 3

B. Square tips, not round

C. What's with the longitudinal bars?

D. Even better have the final duct attached to the ends of the blades

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Rasper:

The battery spec has changed several times. I don't trust what I have on the drawing to be current. I'll call the yard  this morning and get an updated spec.

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18 hours ago, Bob Perry said:

I'll ask where the Ti comes from. Jim is pretty Jingoistic about materials. They tried to sell him Chinese cf and he gave them the boot.

There was a bit in the news last week about our local Ti alloy producer, or one of their sister plants.  It seems they've been faking QC data - now being blamed for rocket launch failures...

 

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For those interested in the electrical system of the cutters for Hull No. 1 it is as follows;

All batteries are Norstar Group 31 AGM batteries. We felt there was an advantage to having all batteries identical.

The house bank is under the port and stbd settees and is 6 batteries per side.

There are two nav gear batteries, one per side under the settees.

There is one engine start battery under the port Q berth.

There is one 300 mp alternator running off a jack shaft off the engine PTO.

 

The choice of electrical components was a long and drawn out exercise in comparing components and evaluating them against the client's needs and preferences. While I whacked away at the initial drawings weeks were spent working on the electrical system. Yes, lithium batteries were looked at in depth but in the end the client felt more comfortable with conventional batteries.

032

 

059056

 

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On 8/9/2017 at 5:13 PM, Rasputin22 said:

 We may have to waterjet and sell Sailing Anarchy Ti belt buckles from the scrap! 

I'll have some belt buckles, mate!  Gucci gear.

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14 minutes ago, Rasputin22 said:

You didn't like my prop, why would you like my beltbuckle?

He doesn't want to wear a prop to hold his pants up.

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2 hours ago, Rasputin22 said:

You didn't like my prop, why would you like my beltbuckle?

Rasper, you're probably right.  Belay that order. My daks might descend in an untimely fashion.

 

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9 hours ago, Bob Perry said:

For those interested in the electrical system of the cutters for Hull No. 1 it is as follows

059

 

Is yellow the common colour for the negative on your side of the pond?

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Yes.

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7 hours ago, JxD said:

Is yellow the common colour for the negative on your side of the pond?

It's the new "in" thing. Yellow for DC negative and black for AC negative. Because you really don't want to connect them.

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Don't forget the yellow dock line.

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We use titanium in worse environments in commercial aviation. As long as the material is picked correctly I don't think there will be any issues. 

 

That being said I have reviewed many Boeing SB's where we are replacing worn titanium....

 

When will the first boat float?

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Hi Bob,

Rich Bennet doesn't ring any bells with me but say Hi back for me anyway.

     I've found a source of Titanium props and am trying to get them to do a AutoProp in Ti for better regeneration.

Bruntons_4_blade_titanium_Varifold_prope

    How is that for a nice bit of yacht jewelery? 

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I really enjoyed clicking through this thread. VERY cool boats!.... must be a fun project.

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On 8/9/2017 at 6:33 PM, Rasputin22 said:

When I was doing some early research for the Ti Cat project that Jim is getting started on, I ran across a story that the US was desperately trying to round up an inventory of Titanium to begin building the SR-71 Blackbird recon plane, still the fastest non-rocket ever I think. 

    Seems the Soviets were stockpiling the Ti and our procurement guys were smart enough to create non- govt and none US buying agents to keep the Russians from suspecting that we might be doing such a militarily significant craft. Since the Soviets were using major amounts building their submarines at that time that subterfuge worked for a while but eventually they started to suspect we were up to something. Some smart analyst presenting his findings that substantial amounts of Ti were ending up in US hands and tried to set off the alarm, the big guys just laughed and said, 'So what? What are the Americans going to do with all that Titanium, build an airplane!?'

This still holds true. Lots of holding companies for procurement for the non profit research companies. Good times.

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Bob,

AutoProp has another style of bearings now on the blade shafts which is supposed to be a big improvement. Did you have one blade seize up? I imagine that would get your attention pretty quickly after putting the engine in gear!

See if you can guess what this is?

titanium

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Thanks Alan.

 

Rasper:

No. We had noise problems. At over around 1200 rpm the prop began to whine. It was loud enough that it sounded like we were being chased by a police car. You could hear it from 100 yards away.

 

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27 minutes ago, Bob Perry said:

Thanks Alan.

 

Rasper:

No. We had noise problems. At over around 1200 rpm the prop began to whine. It was loud enough that it sounded like we were being chased by a police car. You could hear it from 100 yards away.

 

Bob,

Did the PYI guys ever figure out the prop whine?

    Here is a Ti propeller from Brunton's that was made for a BALTIC 115 that came in 50 kilos lighter (35%) that the bronze VariFold. We are hoping that they can CNC mill an AutoProp in Ti for its excellent regeneration properties and efficiency. 

4-blade-titanium-Varifold-propeller-with-text

 

    Anyone who prefers a feathering MaxProp type of propeller it Ti might want to consider this Italian outfit EWOL. I'm a bit skeptical about their claim that barnacles will not grow on the Ti alloy. I took a welding test panel that Jim had sent me and tied it to a piling at my dock for a while but I took it off to try grinding some of the seams and never put it back. I hope he has put one in the saltwater at the end of the street where his shop is. 

http://www.ewoltech.it/index.php?route=gallery/album&album_id=1         EWOL Propellers' award-winning hi-speed titanium marine propeller

Titanium propellers

Titanium provides a further advanced solution for propeller blade construction. Sergio said, “Titanium is a fantastic material, extremely light and resistant, it also has a good flexibility which can be useful to absorb some (not big) hits from external objects, coming back to the normal shape without deformation of the blade. Titanium alloy is also self-protecting from barnacles and other incrustations.”

 

 

    I found this paper from the Navy and their findings of Ti for propellers. 

https://link.springer.com/chapter/10.1007%2F978-1-4757-1346-6_11

Abstract

Due to its high strength-to-weight ratio and excellent seawater corrosion resistance, titanium is an attractive material of construction for marine propellers. For an application such as the complicated configuration of a propeller, the casting process would be the most economical, if not the only practical, means of producing the part. However, there is very little information relative to one important property of concern for this application, the corrosion fatigue strength of cast titanium. An investigation is now in progress at the Naval Ship Research and Development Center, Annapolis, Maryland aimed at determining the feasibility of the use of cast titanium for hydrofoil craft propellers. This paper describes one phase of this investigation, a study of the corrosion fatigue properties of cast titanium.

 

Bob, I even found something for you in Ti other that that hip joint replacement socket that I posted earlier, Titanium chopsticks! Do you want round or square?

http://www.advanced-titanium.com/titanium-tableware/kitchen-tableware/titanium-chopsticks.html

201606131434155458945.jpg

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1 hour ago, Rasputin22 said:

 

Bob,

AutoProp has another style of bearings now on the blade shafts which is supposed to be a big improvement. Did you have one blade seize up? I imagine that would get your attention pretty quickly after putting the engine in gear!

See if you can guess what this is?

titanium

Viking helmet?

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I left a hint on my last post to Bob. It is not a Titanium Testicle prosthetic. 

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Rasper:

PYI is Maxprop, not Autoprop. We called Max Prop and they gave us a prop and it cured the whine. Nobody at AutoProp had any idea what it was. Or se we were told. They put soe on the Sga series boats and I never heard a complaint.

 

I have no idea what that thang is.

 

I like round chopsticks. But I have found metal chopsticks to be a bit slippery.

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34 minutes ago, Bob Perry said:

Rasper:

PYI is Maxprop, not Autoprop. We called Max Prop and they gave us a prop and it cured the whine. Nobody at AutoProp had any idea what it was. Or se we were told. They put soe on the Sga series boats and I never heard a complaint.

 

I have no idea what that thang is.

 

I like round chopsticks. But I have found metal chopsticks to be a bit slippery.

You have to have them knurled. In titanium.

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My fav sushi place has polished alu chop sticks (Kuaizi in mandarin). They are slippery. Knurling would certainly help.

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Is the orange prop shroud a duct (like a Kort Nozzle) or is more of a guard?

And while I agree that square tips are better, there probably aren't any off the shelf Kaplan style props in that size.

 

Bob - were the Autoprops "singing"? Did it get worse with increasing RPM? If so, a bit of trimming/chamfering the trailing edges usually fixes it

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Zonker:

Maybe, although I would cal it "screaming" not "singing". Max Prop cured it and boat is very happy now. Betts build WILD HORSES.

Wild horses  anchored

 

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The early two-blade MaxProps were a major advance for race boats.  I worked for a bit in Italy with Max Bianchi (hence MaxProp) who designed the things.  

Such entertaining times tuning the prop to the engine.  Work out your revs and speed, take the prop apart, refer to the booklet, line up the letters, numbers and multiple dots on the gears till you get the angle you want, fill with grease and reassemble, not forgetting monel wire in the holes on the socket head fasteners to stop it all coming to pieces.  Launch the boat, try it, oops, not right, hoist boat, rinse and repeat.

I did hear of a maniac who said he had disassembled, adjusted and reassembled one underwater, but that's surely a myth.  Even on the hard you were dropping pieces all the time, and really needed two people - one to hold the blades, and the other to apply the half shells without messing up the gearing registration.  

The IOR Maxi ones were really something.  They took the biggest ones Max made, and brazed long bronze tips to the blades, and hand-finished them fair.  I think Condor's was 37" diameter.

End of digression.

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P_Wop

    You are right about the trials and tribulations of matching the pitch of the early MaxProps to the engine/boat properly. Newer ones can be adjusted in the water (or on the hard) with a dial that is under the anode. 

    I may have been the source of the myth you mention of servicing a MaxProp underwater as I think I posted watching my neighbor in the anchorage do so on a Swan 651. On a mooring no less and freediving to boot! I told him he was nuts when he started the undertaking but he had managed to get the beast off and was cleaning it in his cockpit. I offered use of my SCUBA gear when he was ready to put it back on but he declined. This guy lived and cruised with his wife and two you children on probably the most beastly Swan ever so he was used to big challenges but no point in making things tough on oneself... 

    He had thought things out well and had hung a 5 gallon plastic bucket off of the shaft at the strut to catch any of the precious bits if dropped. Granted the water was clean, warn and clear over a white sand bottom and he had done the assembly while hauled out several times and he managed just fine, even with my kibitzing. 

     Zonk, your comments reflect what P-Wop had mentioned earlier about the orange shroud and prop in the render I posted. That shroud is indeed intended more as a prop guard that a true Kort type nozzle. It is a proposal for the Ti Waikiki charter cat that has been hinted at here and other threads a few times. The Department of Natural Resources in Hawaii is now requiring prop shield since some recent dive/snorkle boat fatalities. The present boat uses a simpler version of what I have modeled and shown in that rendering but it is in plastic and prone to breakage. They company has the cast aluminum version with the extra third 'ring' and appears to be more carefully foiled and streamlined but at twice the cost. Hopefully the durability of the aluminum version will offset the added cost. 

    Look closely at the prop illustrated and you will see that it is a AutoProp which has equal thrust in forward and reverse. I have been working with a prop guru at Bruntons who is willing to consider fitting the AutoProp to an electric outboard that Torqeedo makes. They have their own proprietary prop matched to the Evinrude 115 lower unit which is the basis of the electric 80HP motor. That prop has poor reverse performance which is important to the big (50') beachcat since it sits in the sand for a half hour or so while a fresh batch of tourists boards. The shorebreak and surge make the hulls settle in the sand somewhat and with a full load of guests the Honda outboards sometimes have a hard time backing the boat off the beach. We had considered a new Yamaha 60 Hi Thrust outboard with a larger lower geared lower end and exhaust cutout for better backing which is an improvement in that exhaust coming out of the hub is not longer disturbing the prop. 

    The prop engineer and I see the weight of the AutoProp and the biggest limit to fitting to the electric motor. They are already offering their feathering prop in Ti and say that it should be no problem in doing so for the AutoProp. I am twisting their arms to squaring off the blade tips for minimal clearance with the shroud/nozzle which is the usual practice with the Kort nozzles. It may end up being a bastardization but it show promise especially when one considers the regeneration capacity when sailing which will let us design with smaller and lighter battery capacity. AutoProp is unmatched when being dragged through the water for regen due to always having the camber and cup working in the right direction. There are rumors of a controllable pitch prop fitted to electric drives from OceanVolt which may be a match for the AutoProp but at more complexity. There is enough stuff dangling around down there in the water as it is!

    The carbon cutters will be interesting to watch with the two Watt and Sea hydrogenerator in those brackets on the stern. I've considered that route on the cat but they would be sitting on an already small transom which is right in that last litter (sometimes not so little) wave that breaks under the sterns of the cat while it is beached. 

    Lots of development going on in this field and the client and I are keeping our eyes peeled for new ideas. He bought one of the first Tesla roadsters and has been noticing lessening battery capacity on it after 7 years of use. The batteries we are considering for the cat are BMW i8 cells and will be warrantied for 9 years. WIth the price of outboard fuel they should be cheaper in the long run and the promotional value of a 'green craft) with a tourist concession in a location like Waikiki is a big factor as well. 

    I keep saying I will start a dedicated thread to the Ti cat and looking at the tome I have just written I promise Bob that I will do so and quit hijacking here!  

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You are not bothering me Rasper but your project may get more attention with a more appropriate thread title.

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Yeah you right Bob. With the cat officially under way at Bett's I will start a new thread. Lots of rig and propulsion decisions pending.

 

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On 8/12/2017 at 7:58 AM, Rasputin22 said:

Hi Bob,

Rich Bennet doesn't ring any bells with me but say Hi back for me anyway.

     I've found a source of Titanium props and am trying to get them to do a AutoProp in Ti for better regeneration.

Bruntons_4_blade_titanium_Varifold_prope

    How is that for a nice bit of yacht jewelery? 

Awesome. It'd make a great anchor. ;)

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Here are a few shots from today's yard visit. Looks like boat may be hauled out of the barn next Tuesday for rigging.

032

 

017046044066

 

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The level of detail and quality of finish of these boats is simply outstanding. Every time I visit these, I want to lick them. They look that delicious!

Looks like I'm flapping my jaw again in that picture and that's even pre-coffee!!

 

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16 minutes ago, Bob Perry said:

It's all good somebody else.

Enjoy.

bob- any idea of the polars for these things? they are so beautiful. so well done.

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Man, cockpit seems tight. Guess you can flip up the tiller and engage autopilt, pull some stings, flip the tiller down and and steer again? The main traveler looks like its a sheet off, move car, sheet on deal but I am old and there may be some whizbang doohickey I dont know about. Looks though that the view from the steering position allows a farily proud view above the cabin and hardware etc which might explain the traveler following the arc of the cabin. I like it bob. I could see myself happily commanding that craft without a lot of moving around (you cant see me drooling thank dog).

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1 hour ago, bigrpowr said:

bob- any idea of the polars for these things? they are so beautiful. so well done.

Two of them will be north up.

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21 minutes ago, Chris in Santa Cruz, CA said:

Man, cockpit seems tight. Guess you can flip up the tiller and engage autopilt, pull some stings, flip the tiller down and and steer again? The main traveler looks like its a sheet off, move car, sheet on deal but I am old and there may be some whizbang doohickey I dont know about. Looks though that the view from the steering position allows a farily proud view above the cabin and hardware etc which might explain the traveler following the arc of the cabin. I like it bob. I could see myself happily commanding that craft without a lot of moving around (you cant see me drooling thank dog).

Pretty sure I see blocks and cam cleats at the ends of the traveler track, and blocks in the car.  It looks pretty standard to me.

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If the track is convex from a vertical perspective and straight perpendicular to centerline the sheet will have to be eased to move the car in some circumstances. The tackle im sure is tip top, its the goemetry related to force vectors and shit like that I was blathering about. I have the same on my sc27 and I curse it but have been too lazy to make g10 tube stand offs to make the track concave and so I curse myself as well. Less of a hinderance to do that on my boat due to its location. On the cutters it would not work visually or ergonomically and they arent race boats so the trade off is very easy to justify. Stiff boom and monster vang and just usemthe traveler to clear the path to the blender.

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1 hour ago, Chris in Santa Cruz, CA said:

If the track is convex from a vertical perspective and straight perpendicular to centerline the sheet will have to be eased to move the car in some circumstances. The tackle im sure is tip top, its the goemetry related to force vectors and shit like that I was blathering about. I have the same on my sc27 and I curse it but have been too lazy to make g10 tube stand offs to make the track concave and so I curse myself as well. Less of a hinderance to do that on my boat due to its location. On the cutters it would not work visually or ergonomically and they arent race boats so the trade off is very easy to justify. Stiff boom and monster vang and just usemthe traveler to clear the path to the blender.

Ok, sorry, I misinterpreted you a bunch.  Now I'm following you.

I have sailed boats with humped tracks and don't recall any difficulties.  But most of my experience has been with flat tracks.  I'm curious now.

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I've done both and sailed with both. In this case the client did not like the look of the flat trav track. Both ways have advantages. I have done this before.

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Big:

Yes, I do have polars. Let's wait until we sail the boat before I publish them. Not sure I will. It's just a cruising boat, not a TP 52.

Thanks for the kind words.

 

Chris:

as I have explained before. The cockpit is not "tight". The well is big enough for a hatch so we can remove the engine if needed. If not for that requirement I would have possibly made the well more narrow, Remember, these boats are design specifically for a crew of four on offshore passages, two on deck at a time most of the time.

Here's a deck plan that might be helpful.

deck_zpso7vlt9va.jpg

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032

   There are two potential issues w pin forward lead blocks.

    one, a slack/ unloaded sheet can lay below the somewhat proud pin, and when taken under load trip the pin causing the lead to slide aft unintentionally.

    two, if trying to adjust the lead while on the loaded side, often you ease the sheet to unload the leadblock /pin and move it.  With the pin forward of the lead, the flogging sheet makes it somewhat a PITA to trip the pin or worse could lead to finger/hand injury.

  just my .02

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Most new genoa car designs have the sheave angled aft. This is to direct the load vectors down thru the middle (lengthwise)of the car for best load distribution on the track. Most car lengths are now made to span two fasteners. Combine these two design goals & pin forward is the result. Aluminum t track is not really that strong - I have replaced several sections that had a car pull thru the track - usually starting with a failed fastener.

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Thanks Longy. I did question car direction and Jim assured me they were installed as per Harken directions.

042

 

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18 hours ago, Bob Perry said:

Looks like boat may be hauled out of the barn next Tuesday for rigging.

Launch maybe a few days, or a few weeks later?  Say 15 September.

Then 4,824 sailing anarchists take her for shakedown cruises.  Four crew at a time, on 4-day cruises.

That means she'll return to the yard on Saturday, 30 November 2030.  After bug-fixes are complete, Mr Lucky should be able to sail her away in February 2031

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If he's that lucky!

I'm hoping the boat sees the sunlight on Tuesday. Then a week to rig the boat. Steve King is coming out from Offshore Spars to step the mast and help with the rigging. Then launch asap. Right now it's all about finishing the wiring and then getting the systems all working. Some of that will have to be done post launch. I may get a hotel room in Anacortes for a few days. But at this stage there is little I can contribute except cheer the team on. I can take photos and I have a buddy with a drone. I've asked him if he's interested in doing some drone shots.

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How long will it have been from your first client meeting with Mr. Lucky to launching day?

Presumably less than the years you spent with Kim over Frankie.

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2 hours ago, Bob Perry said:

I'm hoping the boat sees the sunlight on Tuesday.

So...it sounds like it is getting close to a good time for me to be "that guy" and invite myself up for one of your Wednesday visits to the yard.....?

I can be adult supervision for Somebody Else, if that helps.  that guy bears watching.... <grin>

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Jon:

2.5 years since the first get together with the client.

 

Sled:

Any time you like. I think my every Wednesday schedule will be augmented by extra visits now. Just give me a couple days notice. Any excuse to  go to the yard works.

Somebody Else is fine. He had a nice weekend sail on Frankie last weekend. He got to steer for 30 miles.

008

 

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